A Statement on Plagiarism
Dave
I have taken his ideas and used them in MoO2. I will address that
author directly, of course, but I wanted to make a general statement
here in case anyone else has similar concerns (about any story).
The very first official outline of MoO2, which included the biggest
plot points and summaries of themes, was sent to Josh on September 15,
2006.
The first detailed outline, including dates, sub-plots, and even
specific prose notes, was sent to Josh on March 25, 2007.
The current version of the outline, which has not materially changed
since, was sent to Josh on May 1, 2007.
In particular, the first draft of chapter 12 (which again did not
change in any major ways) was sent to beta on January 17, 2008. The
first draft of chapter 13 (again without huge changes) was sent on
March 2, 2008.
So, if anyone finds a story completed prior to September 15, 2006,
which resembles the broad strokes of MoO2, then it is temporally
possible that I read that story and stole some ideas. I didn’t, of
course, but it is possible according to the dates alone. If anyone
finds a story completed before March 25, 2007, which resembles the
actual scenes and plot sequences of MoO2, then it’s temporally
possible that I read it and stole something. Again, I didn’t.
Note, by the way, that those stories need to be _completed_. MoO2 is
a very carefully constructed story, with more sub-plots than anyone is
aware of yet, and they all tie together. Some of them tie to sequels
that likely won’t be published for at least five years. Every scene
and device currently posted ties to later work, and those ties will be
clear. If someone wants to say I’ve stolen something, they’d better
be referring to a plot string in a completed story, because otherwise
it’s pretty much impossible for me to steal anything and make it fit
into my narrative.
More generally, it has been at least a year (more like two) since I
read any re-telling AUs that bear even the remotest resemblance to MoO
(barring the two exceptions below). I’ll read time-travel stories
wherein the protagonist retains some portion of his/her adult
memories, provided they are sharply different enough to make my plot
devices impossible. That means that I can read Nightmares of Futures
Past, for instance. But I cannot and do not read anything wherein
Harry and Ginny are really close (friends or bonded or linked or
whatever) prior to fifth year. Why? Because I adamantly do not want
anyone else’s thoughts showing up in my story, even without my
knowledge. I don’t even read Fate’s Debt, the admitted inspiration
for my premise, because Intromit has covered or is covering some of
the same territory I have covered or will cover. That’s sad, in a
way, because I’m no longer reading some stories that were favorites of
mine. I simply won’t allow my subconscious to soak up any more of
other people’s thinking than it already has. My apologies to other
authors whose stories I have abandoned (both reading and reviewing) –
it’s not because I don’t enjoy them. It’s because I want to remain
true to my own premise and creativity.
In the spirit of full disclosure, I should admit that I do read
stories like Saving Harry, wherein Harry and Ginny are close, but the
focus of the story is not really on their relationship or Ginny’s
effect on canon events. I also read Meddle, which is indeed a fic of
the type I usually avoid, because Dino is a good friend of mine and we
have a mutual understanding that our stories are different. I also
read Lost Tower: The Sorcerer’s Apprentice, because I’m a beta on it.
It’s not much like my story, either.
I have credited authors in the few cases where I've borrowed more than
the most trivial details. For those details, I've almost always
spoken to the author in question (often Josh) and gained permission to
use such things without crediting them. Two easy examples: the
nickname "Firefly" was coined by Jonathan Avery during the beta
process, and I credited him at the appropriate chapter. The location
(in part one) of Fred and George's secret meeting with Harry and Ginny
is borrowed from Echoes of Power, and I used it with Josh's full
knowledge and consent.
I admit that this insinuation has riled me up a bit, because I work
very hard on my stories. Not just the writing, but the process of
creating something as unique as I can make it. An accusation like
this, made almost two years after I started posting the series, is
particularly offensive.
I do not plagiarize. If I ever do, I give everyone here permission to
send me hate-mail.
Dave
Dave
In my opinion, plagiarism in fanfic is deliberately using someone
else's original ideas or wording without their permission. For me,
personally, I amend this definition to say 'major ideas'. Using the
nickname "Firefly," for example, is not a large enough issue to ask
permission about. Sure, I'd be happy if you credited me (or more
properly, Jonathan Avery) in your Author's Note, but I wouldn't be
upset if you didn't. I think that's just an enduring detail among
many other details, and anyone can use it if they like it. If, on the
other hand, someone were to use the events of the story "Firefly"
which led to the nickname, and they did not credit Jonathan Avery and/
or myself, that would be plagiarism. And of course, if someone used
my actual prose and dialogue, that would be plagiarism.
Using similar themes or broad plot choices is not plagiarism. I
certainly did not originate the idea of Harry and Ginny being "bonded"
or "connected". I definitely did not come up with the idea of Harry
and/or Ginny being more powerful than they are in canon. Writing
stories like that doesn't come even close to plagiarism.
I've seen many stories that contained elements that were similar to
elements in MoO. Some of them were pretty obvious, such as those that
use 'Firefly'. Some of them were more subtle. Some were clearly done
in moderate jest, such as poking fun at the idea of "chastity
pyjamas". Some authors have credited me, and some have not. I have
yet to see or hear of any story that I would consider plagiarism.
There's one on fanfiction.net that's pretty close in places, but even
that is more a strongly derivative work than an effective copy.
If you want to use something from MoO and you're not sure if it's
trivial (like "Firefly"), just ask me. I have a hard time imagining a
scenario where I'd say no.
Dave
Comet Moon
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
joel...@gmail.com
author's work he's out to lunch if he thinks you plagiarised him. Both
stories are at similar places chronologically and that means Lockhart
is a tool and the Chamber plot arc is being introduced. Beyond that I
have no idea what he could be alluding too. Keep up the good work
Dave. We appreciate what you write.
Cheers,
Joel
Chreechree
I had to come by to offer a little moral support to Dave. I know I'm
preaching to the choir because the people here are members because
they enjoy Dave and/ or Josh's work. I would hope that anyone that
posts here would find such an accusation ludicrous. More to the
point, I become incensed when I see my friends wronged (Josh, stop
snickering), and I expect many of you will express similar
indignation.
I must say that I find this laughable because, as one of his betas, I
have watched Dave agonize endlessly over his stories. He is so
attentive to the minutest details and word choice and the nuances that
they evoke. As he already said, he always has a reason for doing what
he does in his stories. He truly crafts his stories with great care.
He has too much pride in his work to steal something that wasn’t his.
Most importantly, this accusation is vile and insulting because it
questions Dave’s integrity. What really angers me is that he did it
publicly, which forced Dave to defend himself publicly, as if he has
done something to be ashamed of. I hope that this person truly felt
he was wronged and wasn’t doing it for some self-serving reason. It
seems to me, however, if he did believe his own accusation, then he
would’ve approached Dave privately to discuss it like adults rather
than opting for libel. Now, here I go throwing around accusations
(hypocritical, I know), but I must say that I find it odd that this
guy reportedly parodied MoO in his story and then made it sound as if
the only reason he was looking at Dave’s story was because it was
pointed out to him, as if he was unfamiliar with the story. I think
you have to be pretty damn interested in something (for good or bad)
to reference it in your story. So why do this? Trying to gain
readers to his story? I could be wrong, but it’s the best theory I’ve
come up with other than him being completely deluded.
Christine
Harold Ancell
>Upon reflection, I should add one more thought to this discussion.
>
>In my opinion, plagiarism in fanfic is deliberately using someone
>else's original ideas or wording without their permission....
I myself think this is a little too harsh a definition,
although I must say my background here is from science, where
you don't ask permission from another scientist---far too
much competition for that---you give attribution.
Academically, as I remember, plagiarism is defined as using
such *without attribution*. And in the world of fiction,
there aren't all that many new ideas, and there's plenty
of "parallel evolution" as well: people come up with very
similar ideas when faced with the same situation, which is
likely in a constrained world like the Potterverse.
Finally, there's a practicality issue. When David Drake
bases one of his novels on Homer's _Odyssey_, _Jason and
the Argonauts_ (original authorship lost in time and
mostly gleaned from pot shards) or Dashiell Hammett
(who's same source was used by Kurosawa in _Yojimbo_,
then that was used by Sergio Leone in _A Fistful of
Dollars_, and then as I recall *that* was used in some
Norwegian Viking epic), he's not in a position to ask
permission from an author decades or millennia dead....
You of course must do what you feel is morally right, and
your higher standards and super caution (in not reading
like stories for the duration) certainly aren't harming MoO.
But for me, especially since this is fanfic, where for legal
reasons we don't formally ask the original author for
permission and almost all don't care, giving attribution as
it's due is enough, and whining complaints are to be ignored.
If you're really good, as you are, and your work is prominent
enough, as this is (best exploration of the "bonded" concept
penned), you are likely to get some of this nature. The more
you get upset, the more the complaining loser gets his jollies.
- Harold
Phil Boswell
> I recently received a review from another author, who insinuated that
> I have taken his ideas and used them in MoO2.
at the concept of charmed pyjamas, right?
I thought I recognised this, and recalled him making some rather rude
comments about MoO in his "replies to reviews" [0] but he seems to
have vanished them. Later reviewers refer to them, though, so I don't
think I'm mistaken (I sit ready to be corrected if I am).
The sad thing is that his story is actually kind of interesting: he's
got some political stuff going on which is totally different to yours
and could be really good if he just gets his head down and
concentrates on the writing.
HTH HAND
--
Phil
[0] Don't you just hate those fics where half the space is taken up
with chatty banter with the reviewers, usually interspersed with
cloying requests for more of the same?
August, Charles E
appropriate for a public forum.
I have run across ideas in other stories that are (or will be) fixtures
in mine. The latest is from elaithin's Veil of Shadow's story. I wrote
Patrick through the SIYE messaging system and told him what I am doing
with my story, and why I had come up with the same idea he used. We
both decided I was a clever fellow for blindly stumbling upon his idea
separately and there was enough difference that it wasn't plagiarism.
If I deliberately use an idea from another author (I am borrowing an
item from Arabella's "Hermione, Queen of Witches" series) I will credit
the author and point the reader to their story. I also hope to use
Gabriella Du Sult in a later story (if I ever get that far) but will
write her creator Amy Donegan, explain what I am doing and ask
permission first, as well as credit the permission. Also magic in The
Lost Tower series is based on Remus Lupin's Theory of Magic essays and
texts, but Josh had always planned it that way anyway.
There are enough fanfic stories out there that separate authors coming
up with similar ideas are inevitable.
Chuck
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Dave
I agree with you completely about attribution. I simply forgot to
state that point plainly. Using elements from MoO and giving
attribution is fine with me, provided someone's not actually re-
posting the story. I certainly don't need or want everyone to ask
permission to use bits from my stories.
Phil -
I've heard similar things from other people, about this author's
review replies. I've actually seen one of them, though I don't know
if it's still visible to the public or not. Doesn't bother me,
really. He's welcome to dislike anything or everything about MoO, and
in fact the idea of charmed pyjamas is quite flawed and pretty silly.
But it's flawed and silly for a reason.
I probably would have read this guy's stories eventually, because I do
enjoy re-telling AUs. It's a shame that this has tainted my opinion
of what sounds like a decent fanfic.
Dave
elaithin
I have to say - the thought of you plagiarizing... well, it made me
laugh. A lot. The idea's completely ridiculous. I've been there myself
- my senior English teacher in high school actually accused me of it
no less that four times, even though she never had any evidence.
(There wasn't any, of course, because I hadn't done it.) I'm well
acquainted with just how infuriating such an accusation is.
Myself, I've had to drop plotlines because I saw Kezza do something
very similar in Remembering Life, or saw Peter do something similar in
Hog's Head, and we're all working in the same time-frame. But since I
have too many plots anyway, I'm really okay with that. Kezza, I
believe, has even stopped reading my story because of how similar our
brains seem to work. As others have said, what it boils down to is
that there's so many of us writing, similarities will occur. The
defining difference, of course, is quality. (And the quality of yours
is exactly why notions of plagiarism are so laughable. If anything, if
you plagiarized, the chapters would come out faster! ;) )
I'm disappointed that this particular writer chose to make those
accusations (and so publicly, especially.) It's a shame, because I was
enjoying his story.
Oh well. Plenty of others to read.
- Patrick
regdanford
I am a bit of a lurker in this group as I read but rarely comment.
I have read the story in question on FanFiction and I really could not
see where he was coming from in his comments in his review of Moo II
in SIYE.
The only similarities I could see are that both stories are set in
Harry's second year at Hogwarts and both Harry and Ginny are "bonded"
in some way.
His "review" did have an attitude that was aggressively accusatory
(completely unfairly needless to say) to Dave and I am very pleased
that Dave responded so firmly today.
I know from my own brit-picking activities that Dave wrote the two
chapters that were being complained about long before the story was
ever published on FF.
I can also confirm that he (the author) did make some comments about
MOO (i.e. the pajamas) in his story a couple of weeks ago which would
seem to indicate that he had read Dave's story a bit earlier than his
review in SIYE which stated that he had only read the last two
chapters in the last day or two.
It should be possible to find cached pages with his comments if indeed
he has removed them from the current versions of his work, they were
definitely there.
I will go back to lurking now.
Please keep up the good work, Dave!
Reg
>
> - Show quoted text -
Richard Stringer
he has removed them from the current versions of his work, they were
definitely there.
R
melkior
disbelief and so on. I'm sure you can categorize those emotions and
insert them in proper slots, so there's no need to say anything more.
Accusing Dave in this situation is utterly ridiculous. Anyone with
only a half of brain can easily see how much work and planning goes
into each paragraph of his stories. The accusation doesn't really
carry any weight here, as people have already pointed out.
Now, I'd like to add to this little drama. Yup, there's more. The
author in question contacted me on 31st March of this year, to tell me
that his story (which was being developed at the moment) was similar
to mine. He noticed it on PS, and expressed his disappointment at
being too slow in posting his own story.
His own words about Meddle were: "eerily like mine."
I though nothing of it, and reassured him that he doesn't need to
worry, as I was confident that his story wasn't going in the same
direction as mine. I also pointed out that Meddle started posting in
October of 2007 on SIYE, so that my story existed a bit longer than
his (I didn't mention that I started planning it a couple of months
before the Prologue was posted).
He also said that he was re-editing his story to separate it from
mine. My response was that he needn't do that as I was unconcerned.
I got no reply. Not even a thanks, but I never thought about it.
Imagine how it was for me to hear about this. The whole concept just
became even more ridiculous. Hence, my disbelief.
To summarize, Meddle was roughly based on some concepts from MoO, and
since Dave is actually stealing ideas from a fic that hasn't even been
posted by the time he had it all worked out, my story was actually
based on that fic. Now I can see why it was "eerily like' his story. I
was basing my fic on his, but I was never aware of it due to a
temporal paradox.
Additionally, I'd like to add that I never bothered to read the story
in question, as I'm avoiding stories that involve bonds (for the same
reason as Dave). Not to mention that I didn't want to read it in case
I really found too much similarities. It was best to know nothing.
Now I know I'm not going to read that story ever, because I could see
myself (from the past) stealing ideas in the present (future as far as
my past self is concerned) and the whole Universe might implode.
And I kinda want to avoid that.
Dino
Chreechree
have the ability to muck about with the space-time continuum.
This guy seems obsessed with people's work being similar to his.
Well, thanks to Joel and Phil who confirmed that there's not much
similar to the stories.
Christine
August, Charles E
myself (from the past) stealing ideas in the present (future as far as
my past self is concerned) and the whole Universe might implode.
And I kinda want to avoid that. Dino"
PLEASE avoid that Dino, it will only lead to a fetid miasma!
Chuck :-)
Chris Marshall
I would not be surprised if said author hadn't contacted JKR herself to complain that her Harry Potter books had the same characters as the story he is currently creating.
As someone else said there are close to half a million HP stories on the web, it is going to happen that some may be similar but that is okay as long as it isn't word for word the same it is interesting to see how different people visualize things differently or explain them differently.
My own story is a bond story that has some similarities to a number of stories I have read, I have been careful to not steal ideas too but it may happen, in fact I already contacted Dave to mention that I used "Firefly" in my story. This wasn't because I wanted to steal it from someone else but because it fitted in with the plot.
I have also used the name New Marauder's which has been used before, but again it fitted in with the story and has been used if a different way to the other stories I have seen it in.
At the end of the day unless someone is copy and pasting a story word for word and claiming it to be there own, or if they are using the same characteristics that don't conform to canon, I don't know how they can claim it to be plagiarism.
Harold Ancell
>My own story is a bond story that has some similarities to
>a number of stories I have read, I have been careful to not
>steal ideas
Steal is an awfully loaded word when you're talking about
ideas. Think of all the things we wouldn't have if some
artist or scientist hadn't "stolen" someone else's ideas.
_Romeo and Juliet_ for instance. Those movies I cited in my
previous message. Pretty much all of modern science and
engineering; here's two apropos quotes:
If I have seen further it is by standing on ye shoulders
of Giants.
Issac Newton, who invented a whole new system of math to
more properly describe mechanics (moving bodies). Lots of
people built upon the calculus and Newtonian mechanics to
give us e.g. the Industrial Revolution and break mankind
out of the Malthusian productivity trap.
Good artists copy. Great artists steal.
Pablo Picasso, although many would not choose him for a
moral guide....
Ideas can be copied without cost, without taking away from
the creator. Give him credit, and I personally don't have
a moral problem (not considering patents, of course).
>too but it may happen, in fact I already contacted Dave to
>mention that I used "Firefly" in my story. This wasn't
>because I wanted to steal it from someone else but because
>it fitted in with the plot.
I'd like to emphasize that some instances of "parallel
evolution" are simply inevitable.
Ginny can have many pet names, but Firefly is just so
obvious and natural it's hard to call it "original", even if
you could find the first story that used it.
Or take the first really major decision of anyone trying to
write a reasonably canon compliant post-HPB story: does Bill
and Fleur's wedding get attacked?
Good arguments both ways, but an author has to decide on one
of two paths and after that similarities are inevitable:
weddings by definition have one event, and there are only so
many ways (e.g. limited set of players) or times at which to
attack one. And of course you can preempt or cancel the
wedding, again generally due to a small set of options
that are common to relationships and/or wars.
This is an example of why I view the Potterverse to be
fairly constrained compared to other fandoms where there
isn't such an overarching uberplot. E.g. you don't *have* to
write a story that involves both Harry and Voldemort, but it's
hard to write a long one that doesn't touch on one or both,
for they define almost certainly the largest aspect of it.
I guess coming from my backgrounds of science and computer
programming that I'm just ... easier about using the good
ideas of others, just as long as I give proper attribution,
and I wish there was less angst in fandom about all this when
it falls far short of the academic definition of plagiarism.
- Harold
Chris Marshall
neurotic
I sincerely hope people are still reading on this topic because you
may not yet realize how deeply you have been wronged.
Worldmaker’s post is factually incorrect (if not an outright lie).
Dave, you have verifiable fact on your side with regard to posting
dates. Allow me to elucidate:
The two most notable similarities between the two stories involve
Flitwick’s class on the lumos spell and its variants AND Lockhart’s
discussion with Harry wherein Ginny is insulted.
Both events in Worldmaker’s story occur in Chapter 8, published on May
4, 2008.
In MoO, the the Lockhart conversation occurs in Chapter 11, published
Febuary 11, 2008. It is worth noting that Chapter 1 of Worldmaker’s
story was not published until April 4, 2008. The “lumos” class occurs
in MoO Chapter 12, published April 11, 2008.
MoO 13 arrived on May 4, 2008, the same day Worldmaker posted chapters
8 and 9 of his story. MoO 13 does not correspond to any of the events
in chapters 8 and 9 of Worldmaker’s story.
The dates for MoO are verifiable at PS net, at the FFA forum under the
Updated fics thread and at SIYE. The dates for Worldmaker’s story are
verifiable at the same FFA thread and by taking note of the reviewer
comment dates at FF net.
I could likely reveal other occurrences (Worldmaker does take a jab at
Dave’s pajamas) and I think we would find that most of them appeared
in Dave’s story before Worldmaker published his first chapter.
I am sickened by Worldmaker’s accusation. It is patently false, as
demonstrated not only by Dave’s outline dates, but by the publication
dates themselves! I am only sorry I didn’t see this post earlier so I
could tear it to shreads with fact before it got even this far. I
hope this sets a few minds at ease. I’ve been a long time reader of
Dave’s (as well as the other authors who use this group) fictions,
though, to my shame, I have not reviewed. Worse, I have reviewed
Worldmaker’s current works. This is a mistake I hope to correct in
the future.
I pray this information is used to garner Dave a very public apology;
if not, a very public reaming of Worldmaker.
Heath
Pfeilspitze "Mercredi" Armbrust
> write a reasonably canon compliant post-HPB story: does Bill
> and Fleur's wedding get attacked?
>
> Good arguments both ways, but an author has to decide on one
> of two paths and after that similarities are inevitable:
> weddings by definition have one event, and there are only so
> many ways (e.g. limited set of players) or times at which to
> attack one. And of course you can preempt or cancel the
> wedding, again generally due to a small set of options
> that are common to relationships and/or wars.
>
This fact is included in copyright law, in fact. If there are a very
limited set of options with desirable characteristics, then they need
not be licensed separately.
The example case from the book I read was one between Intel and NEC.
Intel had licensed a microprocessor design to NEC, and was accusing
NEC of violating copyright on the microcode. The court found in
favour of NEC since there was basically only one reasonable way to
write the microcode.
> This is an example of why I view the Potterverse to be
> fairly constrained compared to other fandoms where there
> isn't such an overarching uberplot. E.g. you don't *have* to
> write a story that involves both Harry and Voldemort, but it's
> hard to write a long one that doesn't touch on one or both,
> for they define almost certainly the largest aspect of it.
>
> I guess coming from my backgrounds of science and computer
> programming that I'm just ... easier about using the good
> ideas of others, just as long as I give proper attribution,
> and I wish there was less angst in fandom about all this when
> it falls far short of the academic definition of plagiarism.
>
And usually short of the legal definition of illegal copyright
infringement, too.
Matthew Skala has posted a number of interesting articles about how
computers tend to make copyright seem stupid, using the analogy of the
"colour" of the bits, since they're indistinguishable, but legally
different:
http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/lawpoli/colour/2004061001.php
http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/lawpoli/colour/2004080902.php
http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/lawpoli/colour/rendered-in-orbit.php
Harold Ancell
>On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 2:51 PM, Harold Ancell <h...@ancell-ent.com> wrote:
>>
>> Or take the first really major decision of anyone trying to
>> write a reasonably canon compliant post-HPB story: does Bill
>> and Fleur's wedding get attacked?
>>
>> Good arguments both ways, but an author has to decide on one
>> of two paths and after that similarities are inevitable:
>> weddings by definition have one event, and there are only so
>> many ways (e.g. limited set of players) or times at which to
>> attack one. And of course you can preempt or cancel the
>> wedding, again generally due to a small set of options
>> that are common to relationships and/or wars.
>
>This fact is included in copyright law, in fact. If there are a very
>limited set of options with desirable characteristics, then they need
>not be licensed separately.
This is one defense in copyright law, but I don't think it
applies to fanfiction, although it probably did in this case:
>The example case from the book I read was one between Intel and NEC.
>Intel had licensed a microprocessor design to NEC, and was accusing
>NEC of violating copyright on the microcode. The court found in
>favour of NEC since there was basically only one reasonable way to
>write the microcode.
What I was able to quickly find out about the NEC V20/V30 case
was that copyright only mattered in that the judge ruled that
microcode was copyrightable like any other computer program and
that Intel had failed to execute something necessary with
copyright licensees, which I gather included NEC.
These chips were reverse engineered, and the judge explicitly
ruled the microcode was not copied, e.g. it was not a
derivative work, although I assume Intel was able to find *some*
similarities here and there that are what you are referring to.
If you're referring to another case I'd be interested to know it.
Anyway, my understanding of copyright is that it *only* protects
expression, one possible example being the exact words of an
attack on that wedding. Copyright per se cannot protect the
*idea* of an attack. (Patents and trade secrets can protect
ideas, but obviously don't apply here.)
In the US, for something like fanfiction, copyright through the
derivative work concept could in theory be used for this purpose.
Wikipedia cites a case involving a proposed script for Rocky
IV in:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_issues_with_fan_fiction
For what it's worth, Wikipedia today says in the derivative
work article:
In copyright law, a derivative work is an expressive
creation that includes major, basic copyrighted aspects of
an original, previously created first work.
In US law, there's the explicitly protected area of parody and
the grey area of fair use that can be used as defenses. In
fanfiction, there are no known cases of refusal to follow a
request or demand from an author, so this has not been tested.
I wonder if in the US the first Tanya Grotter novel might
have made it on parody (what can you say about a work where the
headmistress (all sexes reversed) says You-Know-Who's official?
name and a iron appears out of thin air and tries to brain
her? :-) but since I don't read any of the languages it is
in (Russian, Dutch) or know enough Russian culture I couldn't
really guess. That case was tried in the Netherlands, and
later 1,000 copies were printed in Belgium "in order to let
people decide whether it was plagiarism" (Wikipedia) and JKR
did not sue on that limited printing.
- Harold
Kezzabear
will probably still take a sledgehammer to Mrs Black though! :D
At some point ...
Malchior
emailed Dave about it. When Worldmaker replied to my review, he simply
said
"I've got immense respect for Sovran, and I love the story, but I
couldn'tresist the poking..." (that's what it said in the auto-
response email FF.net sent me)
Then, later on in an AN (I think) he mention that he doesn't like how
people hold up MoO as the pinnacle of bond stories because of how slow
the story is progressing. I guess he just didn't like all the troubles
that happened over the summer and wanted them to be over with as fast
as possible. On some level, I can agree and wish it would go faster,
but that's also the level that demands every story to be written now
so I can read it all in one go instead of over time.
Him claiming plagiarism is, I think, a poor attempt at publicity.
Everyone who saw that review and hasn't read his story will rush out
to read it. Anyone that's smart will realize his is still in progress
and just started uploading a short time ago.
calgary
antics have been around for a while. All of this caused me to take
interest and read. Yes, I like his stories and will continue to stick
around and read them. I think all of this is his way of being
L'enfant terrible. So it's really a lot of hot air, but that guy can
write. He figures if Veridian can make splash so can he.
Jonathan Avery
Also, his characterization in both stories I read suffer at times. They lack development, and the responses by the characters to the Soul Stone are very cliched and lacking in depth. People over react or tend to not have motivations or even logic for their actions. This is more prevalent in "I Saw My Lady Weep," as I felt the other story was more satirical in nature.
Overall, I feel the author thinks he is better than he is. This is a great flaw in any author. Humility and the willingness to admit you are wrong and listen to advice from others creates a better manuscript. Hubris breeds arrogance, contempt, and pedantic writing, and unfortunately, I see a great deal of hubris in his writing and in the way he treats other authors.
Having said all that, I am just one person with my own opinions. Worldmaker has good ideas for plots and some very original scenes in his writing. His writing is above average for the fanfiction community, and as such, I would not condemn anyone for reading it and liking it. I simply had trouble with his writing because every error I found slapped me in the face and made me feel as if he were a hypocrite, and that makes it hard to get into the story itself.
-Jonathan
- A good novel is an indivisible sum; every scene, sequence and passage of a good novel has to involve, contribute to and advance all three of its major attributes: theme, plot, characterization.
Ayn Rand - The Romantic Manifesto p. 74 (pb 93)
Dave
summer did drag on too long. In retrospect, I think that I could have
said the same things in fewer words without losing the important bits
and the big impact. There IS value in the length, I truly believe
that, but I now think that that value is outweighed by the value of
moving the plot forward more quickly. So, at the very least, it was a
learning experience for me, and I hope that everyone will see the
benefit of that learning in the rest of the story and series.
Dave
Phil Boswell
> Actually, I probably agree with him (and others) on that point - the
> summer did drag on too long. In retrospect, I think that I could have
> said the same things in fewer words without losing the important bits
> and the big impact. There IS value in the length, I truly believe
> that, but I now think that that value is outweighed by the value of
> moving the plot forward more quickly. So, at the very least, it was a
> learning experience for me, and I hope that everyone will see the
> benefit of that learning in the rest of the story and series.
fitted the atmosphere properly, and gave room for the interactions
between Harry+Ginny and the rest of the family and their friends. Once
they return to Hogwarts, and hence their scholastic timetable, the
regular stuff can be assumed and you can pick up the pace: before they
leave there is no such option.
Not to mention, I enjoy your little extra bits, like the swimming and
the toy-shop. The interactions with Luna, Dobby and Hermione are---I
would assume---vital for later, and I wouldn't put it past you to have
hidden little things in those other extra bits which will come back to
bite later on.
Part of the charm of your stories is that they feel so much more
complete than a simple narrative. One feels quite immersed in the
story, more than just an observer.
HTH HAND
--
Phil
Harold Ancell
>On May 17, 3:55 am, Dave <Sovra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Actually, I probably agree with him (and others) on that point - the
>> summer did drag on too long. In retrospect, I think that I could have
>> said the same things in fewer words without losing the important bits
>> and the big impact. There IS value in the length, I truly believe
>> that, but I now think that that value is outweighed by the value of
>> moving the plot forward more quickly. So, at the very least, it was a
>> learning experience for me, and I hope that everyone will see the
>> benefit of that learning in the rest of the story and series.
>
>Bah humbug, your summer was just the right length. The slower pace
>fitted the atmosphere properly, and gave room for the interactions
>between Harry+Ginny and the rest of the family and their friends. Once
>they return to Hogwarts, and hence their scholastic timetable, the
>regular stuff can be assumed and you can pick up the pace: before they
>leave there is no such option.
>
>Not to mention, I enjoy your little extra bits, like the swimming and
>the toy-shop. [ Lots more good stuff. ]
I both agree and disagree. I found *all* of the summer to be
valuable, but for me the only "flaw" in MoO is the transitions
from the high tension sections, e.g. after the section that almost
ended with Harry transfiguring Bill, the [ that would be telling ]
in this summer, to "normal life" like the toy shop and the follow
on fun with the brooms ... they (the transitions) don't work for me.
Now for various reasons you shouldn't worry about that AT ALL,
the fact that I need to be in different moods to read one or the
other is much more my problem than yours, but I thought this
insight, now that I've experienced the same thing twice, might be
useful. I'm not sure what I'd advise; as Phil points out, these
"extra little bits" really add to the story, are part of what makes
it "rich" or "complete" vs. "a simple narrative", and are found
throughout it. Plus look at the fiction Bun-Bun has inspired ^_^!
I doubt the story would be great without them, merely "very good".
- Harold
Dave
> I both agree and disagree. I found *all* of the summer to be
> valuable, but for me the only "flaw" in MoO is the transitions
> from the high tension sections, e.g. after the section that almost
> ended with Harry transfiguring Bill, the [ that would be telling ]
> in this summer, to "normal life" like the toy shop and the follow
> on fun with the brooms ... they (the transitions) don't work for me.
transition out of the first bit you mentioned (re: Bill). The "that
would be telling" was, in a way, one long transition.
So I wonder if perhaps you're sometimes dissatisfied around those bits
comes from the contrast. Is it odd to have a story contain both "that
would be telling" and the toy shop within a chapter or two? Do you
perhaps feel that it's disconcerting to see that much variation in
tone among the story? Those would be valid points, I think. My
counter-argument, though, would be that the contrast is intentional.
What is the major 'setting' difference between "that would be telling"
and the toy shop scene? The answer is meaningful.
Dave
Harold Ancell
>> [ Me: ]
>> I both agree and disagree. I found *all* of the summer to be
>> valuable, but for me the only "flaw" in MoO is the transitions
>> from the high tension sections, e.g. after the section that almost
>> ended with Harry transfiguring Bill, the [ that would be telling ]
>> in this summer, to "normal life" like the toy shop and the follow
>> on fun with the brooms ... they (the transitions) don't work for me.
>
>That's interesting. I would have said that there is quite a lot of
>transition out of the first bit you mentioned (re: Bill).
Unfortunately, it's been long enough since I read it that I
don't remember that ... but my point is not that there aren't
transitions, but that they doesn't work *for me* (and again I
emphasize I'm a special case in this area).
>The "that would be telling" was, in a way, one long transition.
Hmmm, yes, it was. In terms of plot, it accomplished something
absolutely vital, perhaps the biggest transition in the story
to date.
>So I wonder if perhaps you're sometimes dissatisfied around those bits
>comes from the contrast.
Exactly. It's the emotional and intensity change that I personally
have difficulty with.
>Is it odd to have a story contain both "that
>would be telling" and the toy shop within a chapter or two? Do you
>perhaps feel that it's disconcerting to see that much variation in
>tone among the story?
As a decade and a half fan of anime, no.
Lots of great anime swings between humor or even farce to deadly
serious in a single episode ... but maybe it's a direction issue.
I.e. going from the not so serious to very serious works well,
but it could be harder to go in the other direction, at least
without, in this example of anime, an episode break, which allows
the audience time to "reset" themselves. Hmmm, I don't watch
anime episodes one immediately after the other, unless they're a
seamless flow of constant action, "can't put the book down", e.g.
the siege of Sforzando in _Violinist of Hameln_.
(The TV anime ... curiously, the manga started out as a totally
gag manga, added a very serious plot but kept the humor, then
the movie did only the humor, and the TV almost only the serious.
Compare the climax of the siege with Guitar and the box and how
in the manga Hamel totally breaks the mood with his comment on
Guitar ... I haven't really tried the manga yet....)
I'm trying to think of anime episodes that switch in the other
direction and that work; let me replay in my mind e.g. Gunbuster,
which has particularly strong examples of this (think of the 2nd
episode especially). Comic relief is of course not an example
of what I'm talking about ("Buster Shield!" in episode 5) but
perhaps bears thinking about in this context. When I next rewatch
the Slayers and Lost Universe TV series, I'll think about this.
>Those would be valid points, I think. My
>counter-argument, though, would be that the contrast is intentional.
Oh, yes, it's clear it's intentional, and overall they are very
necessary for the story. E.g. we'd burn out, MoO would be very
different and not for the better, etc. if you didn't include
plenty of normal tone sections. And they help emphasize that
they're still kids, and you do that very well.
JRK of course does this sort of ting. How does she handle this?
>What is the major 'setting' difference between "that would be telling"
>and the toy shop scene? The answer is meaningful.
I'm sorry but I don't understand the above question.
My point is about changes in the tone of sections of the story; as
I understand the word setting in this context it doesn't matter.
- Harold