Re: [theauthoritarians] Re: Inverted Totalitarianism [linguistics and drugs]
rosenhw
perform various tasks communicated orally. Even orangutans come on call. Monkeys
do too.
Does that mean that human awareness is different in kind or in degree?
Harry
> From: Alastair McGowan <alastai...@btopenworld.com>
> Subject: [theauthoritarians] Re: Inverted Totalitarianism [linguistics and drugs]
> Sent: 11 Jun '08 05:19
>
>
> This does seem correct: Autopoesis is the way that even a single celled
> organism responds to its world - in this sense there is always some implicit
> awareness.
>
> However, when humans' more explicit form of awareness reached the stage of
> being able to report its own states using language this level of
> consciousness changed from an implicit awareness and direct perception to a
> cultural form of consciousness infused with and inseparable from that
> language.
>
> We live in a human culture that is mediated by language (in our
> communication and in our cognitive proicessing)
>
> Wiz
rosenhw
You added new words and ideas to the discussion.
More later
Harry
> -------Original Message-------
> From: Chris <til...@windmills.freeserve.co.uk>
> Subject: [theauthoritarians] Re: Inverted Totalitarianism [linguistics and drugs]
> Sent: 14 Jun '08 20:04
>
>
> Loosely quoting for context:
>
> > bluepilgrim wrote:
> >
> > "Language precedes consciousness" is a general assertion which
> > even a few anecdotes would seem to disprove. I've heard a
> > similar claim, something like "formal thinking is always
> > linguistic" from time to time, but between producing art,
> > music, or playing chess that doesn't seem to hold up either.
>
> Harry wrote:
> >
> > I agree with your thinking as I too think consciousness came
> > first, how else can even the need for oral language be there for
> > evolution to select?
>
> Alastair McGowan wrote:
> >
> > This does seem correct: Autopoesis is the way that even a single
> > celled organism responds to its world - in this sense there is
> > always some implicit awareness.
>
> The assertion that "language precedes consciousness" can make
> more sense if one considers that cultural education is transmitted
> mainly by language; you learn to play chess by linguistic instruction.
> When you've learned the game can you dispense with the words.
>
> Also, language in not the same as basic forms of communication
> like scent or signals. Autopoietic (self-producing) creatures can
> communicate in all sorts of ways, but human language is more
> synthetic. Unlike the case with calls or scent markings, humans
> may be unable to understand foreign languages.
>
> Norbert Elias describes the situation like so:
>
> "The most striking symptom for the group-relatedness of the organic
> structure of a human individual is the biological disposition of
> each child to learn a kind of communication which does not link the
> whole species but possibly only isolated groups. This biological
> disposition to learn a language which is only understood as a means
> of communication within a single human society and cannot usually
> be understood by people outside it, is a unique invention of
> biological evolution." (The Society of Individuals, page 171)
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/3hvdyj
>
> Another author, Trigant Burrow, theorised that the synthetic nature
> of language has rather confused humans, as they cling to the literal
> meaning of words and fail to grasp, or lose sight of, the reality they
> are intended to represent. He discusses even deeper complications:
>
> "... we shall consider indications that the undue interpolation of
> the processes of mentation characterizing man's projective,
> linguistic function caused a breach in the organism's physiological
> basis of continuity that seriously impaired its original behavior
> consistency." (Preconscious Foundations of Human Experience,
> pp. 103-104)
>
> All very supportive of Zen non-mentation.
>
> But otherwise, how to help people not get hung-up on language?
> and mitigate literalism.
> >
>
rosenhw
> He discusses even deeper complications:
> agree that language 'conditions' the mind (Serle --
> http://www.childrenofthecode.org/interviews/searle.htm ; Korzybski
> and abstraction http://learn-gs.org/learningctr/abs-mod.htm ).
I visited this site and copied the following from a box on the left
that gets at a problem I have.
"FIDO - "FIDO", or an animal, interacts similarly with WIGO at the Object l
evel. However, FIDO's capacity to make inferences or related
associations is finite, unlike a human's."
The implication that the human brain has an infinite capacity is
patently false. Given that, is it not likely that humans and dogs,
who understand commands--one half of communication--differ in
degree. not in kind. My border collie makes various sounds that
carry meaning, but her voice box and tongue are not up to forming
words. She nevertheless knows how to get her point across. She and
I share awareness. And why does she get nervous when my spouse
wanders off on picnic?
Questions for all of you. What kind of awareness does an animal have
when it commits suicide to avoid pain? What is the root difference
between awareness and consciousness?
Harry
bluepilgrim
>snip.
> > He discusses even deeper complications:
> > I don't know I would describe the process quite like that, but I do
> > agree that language 'conditions' the mind (Serle --
> > http://www.childrenofthecode.org/interviews/searle.htm ; Korzybski
> > and abstraction http://learn-gs.org/learningctr/abs-mod.htm ).
>
>I visited this site and copied the following from a box on the left
>that gets at a problem I have.
This is another reference I couldn't remember last night (the
hypothesis -- not the specific site).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapir-Whorf_hypothesis
I also looked further into the site with the Searle reference --
found http://www.childrenofthecode.org/Tour/c5/index.htm , a seried
of short videos which is very interesting. One theme running through
is that conscious was reconfigured by the invention of writing. I'd
say in a way which supports authoritarianism by allowing set and
written laws, and the authority of scripture: another theme is that
those who could read gained power, and as reading and books spread so
did democratization.
>"FIDO - "FIDO", or an animal, interacts similarly with WIGO at the Object l
>evel. However, FIDO's capacity to make inferences or related
> associations is finite, unlike a human's."
>
>The implication that the human brain has an infinite capacity is
>patently false.
Yes -- but the wrong word is used: what should be said is not
infinite, but boundless -- that is, without fixed boundaries in any
given direction. Abstraction makes possible the invention of
"synthetic" ideas which are virtually unrelated to anything in the
physical world, such as 'blasphemy', which a dog can't contemplate.
>Given that, is it not likely that humans and dogs,
>who understand commands--one half of communication--differ in
>degree. not in kind. My border collie makes various sounds that
>carry meaning, but her voice box and tongue are not up to forming
>words. She nevertheless knows how to get her point across. She and
>I share awareness. And why does she get nervous when my spouse
>wanders off on picnic?
>
>Questions for all of you. What kind of awareness does an animal have
>when it commits suicide to avoid pain? What is the root difference
>between awareness and consciousness?
>
>Harry
Awareness seems to be used as a more fundamental aspect of mentality
-- but I don't know of any generally accepted definitive difference.
Perhaps memory and time is part of it: consciousness more often is
used to mean out of time sync with perception, and we tend (I think)
to say we are conscious of the past or future than aware of it. What
would 'aware of the future' mean, since it encompasses imagination; I
can be aware of thinking about the future, but not (ordinarily) of
the future itself (assuming it, or the past, even qualifies for being
in existence). Animals seem to be more dimly conscious of past and
future than human -- while humans are quite often more conscious of
past and future than the present; centering on the 'here-now' is a
meditative technique.
I wonder if authoritarians don't spend more time in abstractions and
non-present time frames.
rosenhw
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Blue Pilgrim
Quick description of my current take on consciousness.
Everything is made of consciousness (sort of like energy and relationships among elements of elemental existence), with the 'physical' being a particular manifestation of it, and what we usually call awareness, self consciousness, qualia, etc., is focused consciousness, in forms of second order cybernetics (the science of controls -- see Beers, and Umpleby, for example, or even third order) with reflexive and recursive feedback loops.
The 'higher level' consciousness of mammals, humans, etc., has more feedback loops: self-awareness which monitors actions of the organism, generally in more formal ways with memory, abstractions, etc., which includes language. Note that in this context authoritarianism implies a higher level of feedback and self awareness, including mindfulness -- more awareness of internal processes and belief systems, in conjunction with external events and systems. Humans can be 'more conscious' because we have (potentially) more developed feedback mechanisms for monitoring the self (assumed identity separate from 'others' and 'external world' -- and relate this to development of 'theory of mind' that kids grow into, and relate it with with psychopathy and lack of empathy with some people, and experience of 'cosmic consciousness' and unity experience).
rosenhw
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rosenhw
> -------Original Message-------
> From: Blue Pilgrim <bluep...@grics.net>
> To: theautho...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [theauthoritarians] Re: Inverted Totalitarianism [linguistics and drugs]
> Sent: 23 Jan '18 15:07
>
> Groups "The Authoritarians" group.
> send an email to theauthoritari...@googlegroups.com.
Jeremy Salmon
Blue Pilgrim
On 1/23/2018 20:22 PM, rosenhw wrote:
> What is your take on Trump?
but no worse than most others in power (politicians, oligarchs, and
corporate state media, and better than some. Politics, and economics, in
the western world (to include Europe) is in collapse, and Trump is a
symptom of it. Russia, China, and the "south" countries have normal
problems and insanity, and will rise in the future.
Trump is like a carnival barker, Wrestlemania showman, and well adapted
for an insane culture. He's fun to listen to, but he's a disaster for
the country -- but at least we are not at war with Russia or incinerated
yet, which I think would have been likely with Clinton and her
neoliberals/neocons. We have a war between the various gangs or factions
in the country, but so far have not destroyed the world, so there is
still some hope. Trump is accelerating the collapse of the Empire and
capitalism, and that is probably a good thing, although it's also a very
dangerous time, as with any large, wild, 'wounded animal', and tends to
lead to extreme polarization, fear, and irrationality among the people.
Trump is a representative of the social chaos -- almost a Jungian
manifestation of the collective consciousness.
Alastair McGowan
Original Message
From: rosenhw
Sent: Tuesday, 23 January 2018 20:22
To: theautho...@googlegroups.com
Reply To: theautho...@googlegroups.com
Alastair McGowan
Original Message
From: Blue Pilgrim
Sent: Tuesday, 23 January 2018 23:55
To: theautho...@googlegroups.com
Reply To: theautho...@googlegroups.com
Ron Braithwaite
Drinks deeply from the well of authoritarian magic
Original Message
From: rosenhw
Sent: Tuesday, 23 January 2018 20:22
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Blue Pilgrim
What it comes down to is the empire, and there is nothing new with empires, or colonialism (or neocolonialists) there. Same 'ol same 'ol. Orcs vs elves and hobbits, nobles vs peasants, owners vs workers, etc., with the usual class war, and basic deceptive propaganda, labeling, polarization, demonization, partisanship, and distractions. Sometimes they are more forthright and sometimes sneakier, but it's the same goal: take over and rule the world.
Most of the commentary I hear is about specific outrages or groups (often part of the distractions created) or the latest 'enemy' (right wing, Russian monster, left wing, 'new Hitler', North Korea), while the general historic patterns and psychic and social dysfunctions are glossed over -- the syndrome is made obscure or mystifying. It's something like worrying about what the hallucinations and delusions of a lunatic are instead of the disease behind the hallucinations and obsessions.
We need to get past only tactical and operational thinking and into broad strategic and visionary planning. Otherwise we win some battles and lose the war, so to speak, against the structures and belief systems that serve the empire.
rosenhw
Amen to that. It is also an indictment of the American way of life. We elected a
narcissist becasue of a 'thoughtful loophole plug' our fouding fathers added to the
Constitiution--the electroal college. It has never worked as intended. Of course
there is also fake news (propagnda in Hitler's time) that too many Americans now
embrce as gospel. Why did that happen? What can ww do about it?
In spite or the US ascendence in this world the tri-partite systems in total, haven't
fared all that well. And we are now exhibit No. 1 for the world for how not to
govern. So does that mean we hve a deeply-rooted political problem?
> -------Original Message-------
> From: Ron Braithwaite <r...@braithwaites.net>
> To: theautho...@googlegroups.com
> Sent: 24 Jan '18 10:51
>
> Glad to see someone is still out there. This group REALLY seems to be
> appropriate at this point in history. It's hard to imagine any group
> being more authoritarian/social dominator Than tRump and his devotees.
>
> If you have something to share, please do so.
>
> -RonB
>
> On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 12:01 AM, Alastair McGowan
> <phasetrans...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Drinks deeply from the well of authoritarian magic
> >
> > Original Message
> > From: rosenhw
> > Sent: Tuesday, 23 January 2018 20:22
> > Reply To: theautho...@googlegroups.com
> >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/theauthoritarians?hl=en
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> Ron Braithwaite
> 2946 NE 65th Avenue
> Portland, OR 97213 USA
> +1-503-267-3250
> r...@braithwaites.net
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rosenhw
I love your call to action. Hey, all of you out there! Hustle Up!
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> > Ron Braithwaite
> > 2946 NE 65th Avenue
> > Portland, OR 97213 USA
> > +1-503-267-3250
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>
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Gary Williams
Drinks deeply from the well of authoritarian magic
Original Message
From: rosenhw
Sent: Tuesday, 23 January 2018 20:22
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Blue Pilgrim
On 1/24/2018 18:22 PM, rosenhw wrote:
> Exactly and well said. The deep state seems to have a mind of its own!
> I love your call to action. Hey, all of you out there! Hustle Up!
>
search on 'how empires work' and found (only) a few hits with brief
information.
https://dailyreckoning.com/how-empires-really-work/ (article by Paul
Craig Roberts)
http://www.open.edu/openlearn/history-the-arts/how-do-empires-work/content-section-1
pdf version:
http://www.open.edu/openlearn/history-the-arts/how-do-empires-work/altformat-printable
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire
I think Michael Parenti has more material.
Most of this is from a 'political' or 'economic' point of view, but I'd
like to see something from a systems thinking (cybernetics) view,
including political and social science, economics, and individual and
mass psychology aspects. We see clumping, lumping or puddling action
with positive feedback in various physical things -- and there is a
probability system and attraction property behind this. Shake a bunch of
little magnets and you get large clumps of them, for instance. In
capitalism, where one makes money by having money rather than producing
goods, there is clumping. When a group become stronger by winning a war,
it's easier for them to win another war and grow even stronger. Those
authoritarian people who seek to accumulate power tend to become more
powerful, and attract others to them. This too is autopoesis -- self
organizing of power structures. But it's also self-limiting -- I Ching,
Book of Changes, Hegel's 'thesis; antithesis; synthesis', various cycle
and rhythm theories -- and there is rise, stasis, and collapse (Brahma,
Krishna, Shiva); birth, life, death; evolution, stagnation, extinction.
We see reality (consciousness) with both relationships forming among
various elements, and also force or principles of organization
(reflected in physics, math, philosophy, etc.) Capitalism, based on
accumulation of wealth and unlimited resources ends as empire and
fascism, but the same principles run in all economic and political
systems. Socialism and communism also has positive feedback for
authoritarian people and forces, power grabs, tendency towards
totalitarianism, and collapse as the original ideals deteriorate and the
system fails under it's own weight and internal inconsistencies, and the
failure of functional feedback and productive control mechanisms (higher
order cybernetics). Same with slavery, feudalism, etc.
We need to sort all this out and create an integrated 'manual' for our
existence which we can use for learning, planning, and surviving as a
not-so-bright species.