Working with Impossible Directors

[Phil Kreisel]

Following up on Rob's thread on the sound cue suggestion, I'm now at my wits end in working with a director for "Children of a Lesser God"  for our community theatre. The director did not ever call any production meetings with me (or any of the other designers, for that matter), leaving me to my own devices in creating the soundscape for the show.  My latest contact from her (and first, for that matter) was to totally change my pre-show/intermission music which she hadn't even heard.

 

I'm really tempted for the first time in 10 years of sound design to walk away from this show and disavow myself from it.  However, since the show goes up next week, it's really not an option (it would be unprofessional of me to do this).  We're in tech right now, and I don't even want to set foot in the theatre.

 

Anyone else here ever have this problem? And are there any words of wisdom from my fellow (more sane) designers to inspire me to get through the next week till the show opens?

 

Phil Kreisel

Sound Designer, Walterdale Playhouse

Edmonton Alberta Canada

[Charlie Richmond]

On Thu, 2 Oct 2008, Phil Kreisel wrote:

> Anyone else here ever have this problem? And are there any words of wisdom
> from my fellow (more sane) designers to inspire me to get through the next
> week till the show opens?

Yes, I have, but it taught me to be proactive in the future and explain to the
director exactly what happens when they behave like this - right at the very
first opportunity you have to talk with them!

Live and learn.... ;-)

Charlie

| - Charlie Richmond - Richmond Sound Design - Skype: charlierichmond - |
| - http://www.RichmondSoundDesign.com "Performance for the Long Run" - |
| -- Virtual Sound System: "Where top quality meets the bottom line" -- |
| ----- I'm Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/charlierichmond ----- |
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[Jim vanBergen]

Phil, 

I'd explain calmly that there is not time to make changes at the moment and while you work at a complete re-design, you plan to use your existing design. Or, that you're willing to reconsider a complete redesign but you need a response to your already designed montage. 

Ultimately, from what I have read in this thread (and I may be wrong) it's not ONLY the director's fault you didn't have pre-production and production meetings. But it is part of our job to communicate, and ultimately, to serve the director's vision for the producer. You may wish to discuss your issues with the producer to see if they agree with you or the director, and if it's not only an issue of non-communication as well as time, you may be able to say, "my budget it spent" and reduce your ability to completely re-do your work. Not that I believe it's good to leave a director in the lurch and dissatisfied, but it's just bad to burn bridges. We still do that even when we try our hardest not to. So, take a stab and see if you have some options. Take a step back and try to find perspective. When you find some calm, try another stab at communicating, and take the position of the adult, or better yet, the psychologist. 

Hope this helps, 

JvB

--
Jim van Bergen
AudioArt Sound, NYC

[Becca Sullins]

Indeed, I have been in this very situation. I was working on a show where the Director fired the Lighting Designer the night of first dress (mind you, this was a COLLEGE show), yelled at me (and I mean berated me for 20 minutes about how I was unprofessional and useless in front of the entire cast/crew) for missing a rehearsal because I was in the HOSPITAL (and had lost 20 lbs in two days… mind you, I’m only 115 to begin with), and forced every one of the designers to redesign every single thing they had done to her exact specifications. This was the first day of tech… down to the last stitch.

 

We, as students/designers/cast/crew, met and decided that a grade was not worth the ultimate belittlement and harassment that we had endured. After the LD got fired, we were going to strike, and walk out on the production, but decided on a different course of action. We, as a group, went to the ‘Producers’, in this case the Deans of the Design & Production and Drama Schools, voiced our opinions, and told them that we would uphold the reputation of the school and put the show on, but only if this particular director was never hired again. It wasn’t an ultimatum, but a director like that shouldn’t be allowed to direct, much less teach. So my suggestion to you would be for you to go to the producers and at least voice your concerns. You were hired as an artist, not a monkey. They should know that one of the people they hired to work with the rest of the artistic staff is not doing anything of the sort.

 

Her name isn’t by any chance Kaia is it? ;)

 

 

Rebecca Sullins - CTS

Senior Design Engineer

Sound Image

Nashville, TN

Tel: 615.256.0528 x30

Fax: 615.256.9945

Cell: 615.516.8123

---

[Eric Snodgrass]

Yeah, I agree with Jim on this. Honestly, if the first contact you've
had with a director is about something you've already completed then
that's on you as much as the director because, frankly, the phone
works both ways.
The only two examples of your frustration with this director are that
she didn't have any production meetings (not that unusual for an
amateur director of a community theater show) and that she wanted you
to change something she hadn't heard (you've got to at least play it
for her and tell her why you approached it this way). There might be
other things going on that you hadn't mentioned, but I only have these
comments to base an opinion of the situation.
If this is a director you've never worked with then you might not be
used to the way they work. She might not even know some of these
things (calling production meetings, individual designer meetings,
talking about concepts before working on them, etc.) and if that is
the case then you've got to be pretty diligent in getting things from
her.

I can only guess that either you are pissed that the director wants
you to change stuff you put work into before it was discussed with her
OR there is a lot more going on that you haven't mentioned.
Once again, I am going on only what I read from your original post,
but it seems to me that if you've done work without talking first to
the director then don't be surprised or upset that the director asks
you to change it. It seems a bit presumptuous on your part that the
director would just accept whatever you put out there. I don't know
what kind of preshow/intermission you put together (Pre-recorded
music? Sound effects montage? Original music composed and played by
you and/or a band?) but with a week before opening it seems to me that
there is plenty of time to change it. I know when I'm designing shows
that the preshow/intermission music is almost the last thing I tackle
and, especially working in the 99-seat theater world, the one thing
that can change almost nightly until opening. Changes come with the
job description.

Doing GOOD live theater is very difficult, especially at the Community
Theater level. If it were easy then every production would be
brilliant. When you find yourself getting pissed, just remind
yourself why they call it a "Play". No one is going to die, get hurt,
lose their home or their family if the preshow and intermission is
changed.

> > | -http://www.RichmondSoundDesign.com"Performance for the Long Run" - |

[Chip Wood]

Becca Sullins wrote:

> We, as students/designers/cast/crew, met and decided that a grade was
> not worth the ultimate belittlement and harassment that we had endured.
> After the LD got fired, we were going to strike, and walk out on the
> production, but decided on a different course of action. We, as a group,
> went to the ‘Producers’, in this case the Deans of the Design &
> Production and Drama Schools, voiced our opinions, and told them that we
> would uphold the reputation of the school and put the show on, but only
> if this particular director was never hired again. It wasn’t an
> ultimatum, but a director like that shouldn’t be allowed to direct, much
> less teach.

I'm torn by this "mutiny". The Director is the ultimate
artistic authority on any show. Our job is best to support
that artistic vision. That's it! Doesn't matter if the
Director is Godzilla or Mary Poppins.

Yes, there is a "Professional" way to enable that vision and
your Director's way. But if s/he felt that you were not
supporting that vision, then the blame lies with everybody else.

Sorry about your hospital stay, but my old Profs said that
only death should keep one from rehearsals.

Chip

[Jim vanBergen]

Chip, I respect your position, but I have to disagree strongly. 

The director works for the producer. Many directors are fired on big productions, while the rest of the team stays onboard. My contracts used to specify the artistic chain, using the phrase, "the sound designer will create the sound design according to the artistic vision of the director, as specified by and for the producer." 

I think Becca did the right thing. One director, even one who is a hired gun, can destroy an entire organization. 

If the director IS the producer, or is the artistic director...well, then it's a whole other ball of wax.

JvB

On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 4:55 PM, Chip Wood <chip....@gmail.com> wrote:

(snip)

I'm torn by this "mutiny".  The Director is the ultimate
artistic authority on any show.  Our job is best to support
that artistic vision.  That's it!  Doesn't matter if the
Director is Godzilla or Mary Poppins.

Chip

(snip)

[Chip Wood]

Jim vanBergen wrote:
> Chip, I respect your position, but I have to disagree strongly.
>
> The director works for the producer. Many directors are fired on big
> productions, while the rest of the team stays onboard. My contracts used
> to specify the artistic chain, using the phrase, "the sound designer
> will create the sound design according to the artistic vision of the
> director, as specified by and for the producer."

I certainly bow to your much more extensive professional
experience. $$$$Producers are rare in my experience of ed,
pro, and am productions.

However, even tho Director's are fired, don't the new ones
have artistic control?

Chip

[Jeff Knapp]

I'm going along with everyone else saying the phone works both ways with
production meetings.

I've recently left the community theatre world because after getting a
taste of the small-equity-theatre world and the organization that
surrounds having a fixed structure and being forced to be efficient
since suddenly actors are being paid and there's an eye out for
overtime, the wild-west nature of the CT environment wore me out.

There's something to be said in knowing at you've got a 10-out-of-12 to
get everything done in, as opposed to the fluid "The cast (and by
extension crew) was here until 2:30 this morning re-blocking the last
number..."

When at the CT level I would suggest things that worked really rather
well at the Equity SPT level -- things like pre-production meetings,
post mortems where the designers and crew heads stay after tech
run-thrus to run down punchlists, etc. -- I'd be met with eye rolling,
"we don't have the time", "none of us are getting paid", etc.

So, my advice and words of wisdom are "It'll be over on Friday and make
the best of it. After opening, it's drinks at the bar and 'I never have
to see these people again.' (Until I do.)"

Good luck and there's light at the end of the tunnel!

[Charlie Richmond]

On Thu, 2 Oct 2008, Jeff Knapp wrote:

> I've recently left the community theatre world because after getting a

And I left the professional sound design world when Lily Tomlin's company
basically insisted that the sound design crew perform the impossible: leave the
notes session at 1AM with 5 pages of changes which had to be accomplished by
9AM. Of course these days technology makes this easier to do but still not
necessarily reasonable.

What I have recently found out though is that directors now think the technology
is like [most] lighting requests and every change can be done instantly!

Sheesh....

C-)

[John Bracewell]

Impossible directors are a constant factor in theatre life, though from
your description you've encountered a particularly tough case. However,
you said one thing in your initial message that I find telling. You
said that the director never called you in for any kind of preshow
planning. So why didn't you contact the director? And why would you
get as far as tech without some idea of what the director wants? From
the information you've provided, I'd be as much inclined to lay fault at
your door as well as at the director's. As Charlie Richmond said, "live
and learn," and the first thing to learn, it seems, is that you do need
to be, as Charlie very delicately suggested, "proactive." I won't be
quite that delicate.

I will wish you a good outcome for the show.

-- JLB

[Jim vanBergen]

Sure, they have as much control as the producers are willing to give them. Which isn't much! 

Artistic VISION and artistic CONTROL are two different things. 

The producer runs the show, whether its in the theatre or behind closed doors. 

Follow the money, and you find the control. Producers have the control- they control the money. 

Now, leaving Broadway, 

Even at a resident (LORT) theatre, I have seen a board fire the artistic director when they disagreed with a production. It's all politics, and we have to play carefully. I, too, play less and less these days as I decided several years ago to only design for people who have integrity, for scrips that have integrity...which severely limits the playing field! 

Cheers, 

JvB

On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Chip Wood <chip....@gmail.com> wrote:

However, even tho Director's are fired, don't the new ones
have artistic control?

Chip

[Richard B. Ingraham]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: theatre-s...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:theatre-s...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chip Wood
> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 4:55 PM
> To: theatre-s...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [theatre-sound-list] Re: Working with Impossible Directors
>

> I'm torn by this "mutiny". The Director is the ultimate
> artistic authority on any show. Our job is best to support
> that artistic vision. That's it! Doesn't matter if the
> Director is Godzilla or Mary Poppins.
>
> Yes, there is a "Professional" way to enable that vision and
> your Director's way. But if s/he felt that you were not
> supporting that vision, then the blame lies with everybody else.
>
> Sorry about your hospital stay, but my old Profs said that
> only death should keep one from rehearsals.
>

I too would have to say I disagree. This was in a academic environment
first and foremost. While I'm all in favor of giving real world
experiences to students and feel that many programs (I'm not speaking of
any program in particular just a sweeping generalization...) have a
tendency to coddle their students, treating them with kid gloves
sometimes.... and not giving them realistic assessments of the student's
progress. I also think lots of academic institutions have way more toys
to play with than you'll find in the "real world" more often than not.
They also don't stress the financial issues you'll deal with, often have
way too many crew positions than you'll see professionally and my pet
peeve... they don't follow equity/union break rules. :-) Blah,
blah, blah....

You get the idea...

However I don't think that means that they should be subjected to
condescending tirades as Becca described. Lets remember that ultimately
the students are the producer in an academic environment. They are
paying so they can learn from professionals. (or supposed
professionals) While I'm certain they will run into experiences like
that out in the "real world", that is NOT how you teach a student and
help them progress in their field of expertise. All that kind of
behavior is going to do is make students want to run away from a career
in the arts all together, or at least it would make me strongly consider
transferring to another academic institution. I wouldn't be where I'm
at today with out the supportive yet fairly realistic guidance I got
from my college teachers. I'm not saying mine were perfect, but I
certainly was never treated as Becca describes until I was in the
professional world. :-)

In my personal worst experience; in the professional world, but the time
the show opened the director would not even acknowledge my existence as
I walked down the hall. I would say hello, and he walked past me as if
I didn't even exist. Not sure if the silent treatment is better or
worse than a yelling tirade but to me it was just as bad I'll tell you.

That treatment was the straw that broke the camels back for me. I was
already not very happy about my position at The Cleveland Play House at
the time, but after that treatment it made me go turn my resignation in
as soon as the show closed. (well OK it was a bit after that, but not
long)

Which brings me to another point... You can only treat employees like
this for so long (or students) before no one will work for you any
longer (or you have no students any longer). So as a producer or a
college dean it's wise to nip this kind of thing in the bud. Or at
least a smart administrator will do so.

In my case I was put on "probation" after this production, and that is
when I said "F this... I'm out.. bye"... :-)

(granted I won't say I was guilt free in all the issue this production
had... but I know now {being older and wiser} that a wise administrator
would have simply let me know that they knew I could do better and that
they appreciated all the many years of good work that came before that
show.... since only the Production Manger saw it that way I bailed...

Oh.. and to confirm my point I was the 1st of MANY key positions that
left by the end of that season. :-) (including PM, TD, both SMs, and
many others...) LOL..

Anyway... just my $5 worth here..

Richard B. Ingraham
RBI Computers and Audio
http://www.rbicompaudio.20m.com/

[Richard B. Ingraham]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: theatre-s...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:theatre-s...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Phil Kreisel
> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 12:37 PM
> To: theatre-s...@googlegroups.com

> Subject: [theatre-sound-list] Working with Impossible Directors
>

> Anyone else here ever have this problem? And are there any
> words of wisdom from my fellow (more sane) designers to
> inspire me to get through the next week till the show opens?
>

See other post on the subject....

But I would add that you should finish the show and get it up and
running. Unless you really never want to work there again and don't
think you'll ever care about burning that bridge I would just grin and
bear it until it's all over.

Then just never work with that person again.

In those kind of situations I just kind of go into Sound Engineer mode.
I know this may not be the best way to go about it, but if I'm put into
a situation where I'm not allowed to "design" the show or I really thing
it's completely "wrong", then I just I give the director exactly what
they ask for to the best of my ability, nothing more and nothing less.
If they don't ask for it, then they won't get it.

Although I do agree with the other feedback about being more proactive
in getting a meeting. However I know how some of these organizations
work all too well. I've done shows where my phone calls are not
answered until it's almost tech week and no meetings are called and I'm
lucky if I know when a run thru is occurring.

If this person is not the artistic director of the organization and you
have a good relationship with the person who is, then maybe you should
also talk to them. (or whatever this organization calls their "person
in charge") I have very good relationships with the artistic directors
of all the organizations I work with on a regular basis, and now that I
know what that is like (being 180 degrees opposite of my Cleveland Play
House experience) I can not tell you how much I value that. It doesn't
mean we always agree 100% of the time, or that we don't both do things
that drive the other one crazy (I'll admit I'm just as guilty as they
are...), but it means that we respect each others work and opinions and
talk about things. I would now have no problem going to most artistic
directors I work for on a regular basis and saying... "if you hire this
boob back to direct another piece, it will be without me!" LOL

And in the couple of cases where I wanted to say that... the artistic
director beat me to the punch.. and let me know that "they" wouldn't be
back and thanked me for dealing with the BS. :-)

Even if this person is the artistic director and you otherwise enjoy
working there, then maybe after it's open you ask for a meeting where
you can calmly discuss how you like to work, and why this experience was
not to your liking, etc...

[Steven Devino]

Since we are sharing stories, last spring I was designing a show for an organization who I had designed for many times. They had hired a new director and music director whom I had not worked with before. 

there were a few points which put me on guard:

1. We were informed in the initial production meeting that there would not be any opportunity to tech during "tech week" all rehearsal would be full speed run throughs without stops. Ok a little unusual and certainly creates an artificial limit on what could be implemented but so be it. I'll make the show simple and move on.

2. Two weeks before tech I receive an email from the Director informing me that the MD and her had found that the best place to locate lavs on actors  was taped to the center of the cheek. Wow! I offered numerous links to footage of broadway shows on youtube and pointed out the location of mics. I also sited the grad study paper that was discussed on this list a couple of years ago. 

3. One week before we open the MD wants to know if he will have the ability to adjust the "balance" in the house. Oh Boy! After all it is the MD's responsibility to make sure all the music sounds good.  Of course it didn't seem to matter that the band including the MD was located all the way upstage 20 feet past the proscenium. I was pretty dumbfounded that this request was even made.

Since they seemed hell bent on controlling everything I decided to avoid confrontation. I went to the producers (who hired me) and offered to "rent" them my equipment and design at the pre-agreed to price and discount it by enough to hire another sound designer if that was what the directors wanted. This way I would not be screwing the show nor the producers.  Their response was: you work for us, not the director, we hired you because we want you, not someone else. They dealt with the director.  

The rest of the week went well with everyone behaving and being respectful. I thought the show suffered creatively for some of these decisions but overall it went pretty well.

Steve

Steve Devino

http://graniterockslive.com

603-867-6843

ichat/aim: groc...@mac.com

skype: sdevino

APB Dynasonics Consoles

Countryman and Associates

[Hops...@aol.com]

In the academic environment it is the department's job to control abusive directors.  In this case, the students need to bring any abuse to the notice of the Chair immediately, and get as many witnesses to back up the complaint -- one student complaining might be a disgruntled student, but when several come in with the same complaint, there will be action.   Document everything, and be specific.  What did they say?  What did they do?  When was this?  Who heard/saw this?  Going in alone to the Chair and saying "He's a dick, fire him" won't work, but if you can say "this is exactly what they said, and here are five people that can back it up" will work.  They may not fire anyone, but a warning to the director may happen, or a faculty "observer" might be assigned to the show which almost always reins in any abuse.  If it doesn't, there will be a reliable witness to help you press your case.

 

Also if you're feeling particularly clandestine, keep a small Dictaphone and record the director's rants so you can play them for the chair (your advisor, or whoever) to prove the inappropriate and unprofessional behavior. The possibility that this recording could be taken up the chain of command will usually inspire the department to act quickly. Don't make threats, but keep a copy of the recording on hand, just is case someone tries to sweep it under the carpet.

 

A director can complain when a student designer is not doing their job, but verbal abuse and humiliation is never acceptable  --every school has well defined guidelines as to what qualifies as abuse.  Because of this, a faculty member could never tee off on a student in a classroom setting without consequences, so why should a director (guest or otherwise) be allowed to do so, even in the heat of rehearsal.  The student is paying good money for the opportunity to learn, not to be humiliated.  In the professional world, they are paying you, and (in theory) you have a slightly thicker skin than a student, so putting up with a little jerkiness is part of the territory.

 

Rant/lecture off.

 

Thanks,

 

Dr. Andrew Hopson

Assistant Professor of Sound Design

Indiana University Department of Theatre and Drama

 

 

---

Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators.

[Becca Sullins]

I agree with most of the posts regarding my little story. I have to say though that I didn’t believe it would start such controversy among the proverbial peanut gallery that we are.

 

Yes, I do believe that staging a ‘mutiny’ as it was so delicately put, is not the proper course of action 99.9% of the time. However, in this case, I truly believe it was. This woman was not on staff, she was a guest artist. We were mostly trying to make sure that the school did not continue to bring her on staff and subject more students to her crap.  There were many witnesses, both adult and student. We went to the Deans and explained exactly what happened calmly and rationally, but absolutely stated that this woman was not an acceptable artist to try and teach. And yes, we wanted to learn, not be berated endlessly by a woman that had a VERY twisted ‘artistic view.’ I definitely switched into Engineer mode as well. I gave her exactly what she told me to, nothing more. Luckily, after my professor got wind of everything that had happened, he forgave me for my engineering mode.

 

My answer is still… go to the producers. They are ultimately your boss. They are the money, just like Jim says… and in Theatre, you can always follow the money.

 

Rebecca Sullins - CTS

Senior Design Engineer

Sound Image

Nashville, TN

Tel: 615.256.0528 x30

Fax: 615.256.9945

Cell: 615.516.8123

From: theatre-s...@googlegroups.com [mailto:theatre-s...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Hops...@aol.com
Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 8:43 AM
To: theatre-s...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [theatre-sound-list] Re: Working with Impossible Directors

 

In the academic environment it is the department's job to control abusive directors.  In this case, the students need to bring any abuse to the notice of the Chair immediately, and get as many witnesses to back up the complaint -- one student complaining might be a disgruntled student, but when several come in with the same complaint, there will be action.   Document everything, and be specific.  What did they say?  What did they do?  When was this?  Who heard/saw this?  Going in alone to the Chair and saying "He's a dick, fire him" won't work, but if you can say "this is exactly what they said, and here are five people that can back it up" will work.  They may not fire anyone, but a warning to the director may happen, or a faculty "observer" might be assigned to the show which almost always reins in any abuse.  If it doesn't, there will be a reliable witness to help you press your case.

[Kevin Lacy]

<<<directors now think the technology is like [most] lighting requests and every change can be done instantly!
>>>

I've worked with a director, off-broadway, who thinks just the opposite. He actually got annoyed at me once, during tech on a show, when I delivered a huge amount of chances to a pretty complex build of cues. We had requested that a sound in the middle go in a completely different direction sonically. We were sitting at my tech table when he made his request and I said, "OK. How about something this?" and played him my best interpretation of his request, right there on the spot. I was taken aback when he threw his hands up in the air, obviously in disgust, and yelled, "what the f--k? That's not how this is supposed to happen! You're supposed to go back to the studio tonight and work on it, bring it back in the morning, I'm supposed to say, 'no, I meant a little more orange,' then you go back to the studio again and bring me back something to which I respond, 'THAT'S IT!" He went on to say, "How do you expect me to work if you give me exactly what I want as soon as I ask for it. I need time for the things I don't like to breathe out of the room. It gives me time to think about things. This instantaneous thing just doesn't serve that." He was only 20% kidding!

It also reminds me of the rewind time that's missing in the studio environment. I'm a blazing fast editor but I've had older musicians complain about the missing time, after a take, where you wait for the tape machine to rewind to the point just before your puch and THEN play it back or try the punch again. Obviously, in a DAW, that time is forever gone and the artist barely has time to collect their thoughts (although THAT can be a good thing in it's own way!)

My two cents,
Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: Charlie Richmond <char...@RichmondSoundDesign.com>
To: theatre-s...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 5:48 pm
Subject: [theatre-sound-list] Re: Working with Impossible Directors

On Thu, 2 Oct 2008, Jeff Knapp wrote:

> I've recently left the community theatre world because after getting a

And I left the professional sound design world when Lily Tomlin's company 
basically insisted that the sound design crew perform the impossible:  leave the 

notes session at 1AM with 5 pages of changes which had to be accomplished by 
9AM.  Of course these days technology makes this easier to do but still not 
necessarily reasonable.

What I have recently found out though is that directors now think the technology 

is like [most] lighting requests and every change can be done instantly!

Sheesh....

C-)

---

Find phone numbers fast with the New AOL Yellow Pages!

[Steve Mayo]

I make a point (very slowly, with big hand gestures and diagrams if possible) that programming sound on a computer is the way forward for the consistancy of a show and helps maintain acurate performances on a daily basis and then stress very very clearly how we will never be able to program as quickly as lighting (well, quantum computing might help our grandkids!) and that the clearer the original idea of how the scene change will happen helps me figure out how to program it and prep for inevitable changes! 

 

I should point out it never works but it does give me the classic 'I did explain this' comeback.  As for stroppy / shouty directors, I don't take that.  They pay taxes and go to the toilet like I do so I'll be nice to them if they are nice to me!!  Well, unless I've royally screwed something up and then I'm fair game for a good bit of scolding!

 

:o)

---

From: theatre-s...@googlegroups.com [mailto:theatre-s...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Lacy
Sent: 03 October 2008 16:10
To: theatre-s...@googlegroups.com

Subject: [theatre-sound-list] Re: Working with Impossible Directors

<<<directors now think the technology is like [most] lighting requests and every change can be done instantly!
>>>

I've worked with a director, off-broadway, who thinks just the opposite. He actually got annoyed at me once, during tech on a show, when I delivered a huge amount of chances to a pretty complex build of cues. We had requested that a sound in the middle go in a completely different direction sonically. We were sitting at my tech table when he made his request and I said, "OK. How about something this?" and played him my best interpretation of his request, right there on the spot. I was taken aback when he threw his hands up in the air, obviously in disgust, and yelled, "what the f--k? That's not how this is supposed to happen! You're supposed to go back to the studio tonight and work on it, bring it back in the morning, I'm supposed to say, 'no, I meant a little more orange,' then you go back to the studio again and bring me back something to which I respond, 'THAT'S IT!" He went on to say, "How do you expect me to work if you give me exactly what I want as soon as I ask for it. I need time for the things I don't like to breathe out of the room. It gives me time to think about things. This instantaneous thing just doesn't serve that." He was only 20% kidding!

It also reminds me of the rewind time that's missing in the studio environment. I'm a blazing fast editor but I've had older musicians complain about the missing time, after a take, where you wait for the tape machine to rewind to the point just before your puch and THEN play it back or try the punch again. Obviously, in a DAW, that time is forever gone and the artist barely has time to collect their thoughts (although THAT can be a good thing in it's own way!)

My two cents,
Kevin


-----Original Message-----
From: Charlie Richmond <char...@RichmondSoundDesign.com>
To: theatre-s...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 5:48 pm
Subject: [theatre-sound-list] Re: Working with Impossible Directors

On Thu, 2 Oct 2008, Jeff Knapp wrote:

> I've recently left the community theatre world because after getting a

And I left the professional sound design world when Lily Tomlin's company 
basically insisted that the sound design crew perform the impossible:  leave the 

notes session at 1AM with 5 pages of changes which had to be accomplished by 
9AM.  Of course these days technology makes this easier to do but still not 
necessarily reasonable.

What I have recently found out though is that directors now think the technology 

is like [most] lighting requests and every change can be done instantly!

Sheesh....

C-)

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[Eric Snodgrass]

The older musicians are complaining because they are spending less
time in the studio, thus cutting into their paycheck!

[Chip Wood]

Kevin Lacy wrote:
He went on to say, "How do
> you expect me to work if you give me exactly what I want as soon as I
> ask for it. I need time for the things I don't like to breathe out of
> the room. It gives me time to think about things. This instantaneous
> thing just doesn't serve that." He was only 20% kidding!

I'll admit there are some times I really miss "I'll get back
to you in a couple of days" and "It's in the mail." I don't
think that Man (gender neutral) has evolved fast enough in
the last 20 years to handle the instantaneous info flow.
But then I look at my grandkids and their Gameboys and
"texting" and think maybe I'm just getting old.

Chip

[Cynthia L. Kehr Rees]

Hello Phil,

To add my two cents, and that may be all it is worth, I have never
worked with an "impossible" director. There has always been a way to
make things work if you learn how to communicate with them and how to
understand their personality. I have had situations where I have
calmly excused myself from the room for a few minutes and cursed under
my breath for a bit and then gone back into the room but ultimately I
feel my job is to help bring the director or producing director's
vision to the stage. This can sometime be frustrating since certain
directors do not have a clear understanding of how sound functions and
have not figured out how to communicate with us yet, we are still the
young area of theatre design comparatively, but I have yet to come
across an impossible situation.

For your current situation I can mainly suggest deep breathing and if
your budget has been spent, pointing that out can be a life saver
since I know of very few theatres who are not counting every penny in
our current economy. I do not know the personality you are dealing
with but if there is anyway to get her to listen to what you have
already created and explain the logic you had while designing it, that
might help. Try to tie your design choice to things you have heard her
say since you have made contact. Use feeling words that you have heard
her use, if there is anyway to make your design mesh with her concept
try to help her see it. If in the end she still insists on changing it
make her understand that it will not be an instant fix, give yourself
enough time and do not promise it to her the next day if that is not
realistic. I use to kill myself getting things done in unrealistic
time tables but it is usually not worth it. She needs to understand if
she is making an eleventh hour change it is still going to take time
for you to do it. She may curse you under her breath but next time you
work together perhaps she will learn that she can not put her
designers off until tech week.

For the future, I have found a great way to get discussion going if a
director is not wanting to or is unable to discuss sound design with
you is to just throw your design at them. Type out your sound cue
sheet, describe each cue, how it will sound and function, where it
will start in the cue line, be as specific as possible and then say
"this is what I am planning on doing please let me know if I am going
in the right direction or if you have any notes"... If they do not get
back to you keep emailing them or calling let them know that unless
you hear back you will be moving forward with the design as explained
on your cue sheets. A sound cue sheet can often make sound design
easier to understand for a director who is having troubles figuring
out what to do with us as designers. I try to be as proactive as
possible and when I talk to directors I take specific notes on what
feeling or emotive words they use and then try to speak to them with
their terminology.

I am sorry for your present circumstance it sounds very frustrating
and I wish you the best of luck dealing with it. Hopefully none of
this came across as condescending, I have been told I come off that
way when I write but that is certainly never the intention. I am just
adding my two cents, and as I said before that may be all it is
worth.

Good luck with your adventure! I hope it turns out well.

Cheers!,
Cynthia

[Brad Berridge]

Hello all.
I have read over every post and I think this is a worth while
discussion. I am going to include it in my course materials.
The communication issue seems to be the most important to me.
As designer, we need a place to start. Contacting the director is
usually the first thing to do after mailing in the signed contract.
Some will become annoyed, I'm sure.
I have yet to work with a director that did not have an email address.
Some were unable (or unwilling to learn how) to play sound files I
would send. Snail mail still works, right. Be a part of the process.
Talk to the other designers as well. They may have some insight or
information that you don't. The PSM is a good source too.
It is our responsibility to go (or get) to them just as much as they
should consider sound from the onset and contact us.
It is also awesome to see some Indiana in this thread. Dr. Hopson-
Fight for some cream and crimson. Richard, you wish you spent more
time in Indiana, admit it!
Peace
Brad Berridge
accen...@hotmail.com

[Hops...@aol.com]

Brad, you were a Purple Ace if I recall correctly...

[Kh9...@aol.com]

It may help in the future to include milestones with due dates in your contracts,

and to be proactive in communicating and tracking those deadlines, and emphasizing

the consequences of missing those deadlines. - "I need your comments on the pre-show,

intermission, and exit music by the 3rd so I have any changes ready for you by the 9th"  

"I need to book with the sound rental company by the 15th to guarantee

equipment availability and delivery by the 23rd."

Make it clear that you can't give them what they want if they don'tgive you what

you need.  (Think Jerry Mcguire - "Help me help you")

 

Unfortunately - especially in the community theater world - virtually anyone who can

read a line from a script convincingly can become a director (Sometimes not even that!). 

How many high school english teachers have we seen as directors because

Shakespeare is literature.  Many of them have absolutely no concept of the technical

aspects of a show - From how to build sets that won't collapse and hurt/kill someone

to why you can't stand right in front of a speaker with a microphone to why you have 

to block multiple scenes on exactly the same spot on the stage because you don't have

enough dimmers or fixtures to individually light each square foot on the stage from every

conceivable angle with every color imaginable.

 

I have found if you're willing to be part teacher in your role as designer, many people like

this who are insecure about their lack of knowledge in these areas are more willing to

be cooperative.  But then again as some one else here mentioned earlier -

 

Some people are just dicks...

 

Kurt Hansen - kh9...@aol.com


"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule it."
  -- H. L. Mencken

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[JvB]

Pleas, no one in the theatre department could be called a "Purple Ace" at U of Evansville.

A

JvB

Jim vanBergen

vanBer...@gmail.com

917-826-1626 Mobile

718-793-4158 Home

[Richard B. Ingraham]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: theatre-s...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:theatre-s...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of JvB
> Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 1:08 PM
> To: theatre-s...@googlegroups.com
> Cc: theatre-s...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [theatre-sound-list] Re: Working with Impossible Directors
>
>

> Pleas, no one in the theatre department could be called a
> "Purple Ace" at U of Evansville.
>

No they all run around with UET shirts, sweats, etc......

But they are purple...

and Brad is a USI (Southern Indiana) guy anyway.

Lastly... while I enjoy working at Evansville very much, no thanks
Brad... I'll stick to Ohio. Too republican for me... :-)

[Lindsay Jones]

On Oct 2, 1:31 pm, "Becca Sullins" <bsull...@sound-image.com> wrote:

> Her name isn't by any chance Kaia is it? ;)
>

Yeah, I was gonna say that this person sounds like a number of people
that I've worked with. Maybe we should make a database of crazy
directors to refer to. This sounds like a job for Charlie Richmond.

Anyway, I seem to be a magnet for crazy directors, and I can't tell if
that's because of me, my career, my luck or just that the world is
full of them. The bottom line for working with these kinds of people
is to keep in mind that their definition of collaboration may be
different than your definition. Does this mean that they're wrong and
you're right? Maybe, maybe not. But if you want to work with them, you
need to put your preconceptions aside for what might be the IDEAL
working situation, and instead focus on how to communicate with this
particular person to achieve a relationship of mutual understanding.

Before you do that, however, it's really important to determine what
you're willing to put up with, and what you're not willing to put up
with. If you're only willing to work with people who understand and
respect what you do, that's absolutely your prerogative, although it's
important to know that this will severely limit your job options. It's
sad but true. So, if you can deal with that issue, then it all comes
down to the lines you won't cross: artistically, personally, and
managerially speaking. Figure out what those are, and stick to them.
If you know what you stand for, then it's easier in those really hard
moments to stick up for yourself.

I had a moment this week where I nearly quit a show and caused bodily
harm, due to how I was being treated. Neither happened, and it's
solely due to what I've written above that the whole thing worked out
fine (well, fine enough) in the end.

So take it for what it's worth.

Good luck!
Lindsay Jones

[Charlie Richmond]

On Sat, 4 Oct 2008, Lindsay Jones wrote:

> Yeah, I was gonna say that this person sounds like a number of people
> that I've worked with. Maybe we should make a database of crazy
> directors to refer to. This sounds like a job for Charlie Richmond.

As if I don't have enough to do and now you want to saddle me with a project
that would make me have to defend dozens of slander charges all by myself.
Sheesh, thanks a bunch..... I'm still waiting to hear from Lily Tomlin's lawyer
;-)

> So take it for what it's worth.

Good advice and worth plenty! Maybe I should put together a page with all the
advice given so far! Hmmmm... wait a minute... It thinks we've done that
already in the archives here ;-)

C-)

[Steve Mayo]

Hi All,

Can't remember who wrote it (sorry!) but I am in agreement that there is a division between directors who know how to convey and understand sound in theatre and those who don't. Personally three things have been life saving. The Internet, PDF's and my .mac account. One of my first questions to Directors and Stagemangers is do they have a broadband internet account so I can upload files for them to hear. It's a fantastic idea to write out a PDF with cues, cue points, description of cue etc even if it immediately becomes a 'book of lies!' It gives both the DSM and Director an idea behind yr thought processes, sometimes I flesh it out with a word document if ambiences / atmos is strange or very important.

For me, I find the earlier I can do this based on my own interpretation of the play the more I have to discuss with directors in the first meeting and its helpful for getting them to think about the sound for the production. If they aren't proactive then I make sure the meeting takes place even as a cold calculated way of watching my back. I think I've been quite lucky as I mostly work with young directors who have very very clear ideas about what they want from sound causing many overnighters!! But, like everyone else, I've been burned a couple of times in nightmare techs and misunderstood intentions.

Steve :o)

-----Original Message-----
From: theatre-s...@googlegroups.com on behalf of Charlie Richmond
Sent: Sun 10/5/2008 12:35 AM
To: theatre-sound
Subject: [theatre-sound-list] Re: Working with Impossible Directors

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This e-mail, and any attachment, is confidential. If you have received it in error,
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the sender immediately. The contents of this message may contain personal views
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All liability for errors and viruses is excluded.

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[page daniel]

Hello everyone,

I have found this discussion very interesting. Those who have contributed
procedures for dealing with producers, artistic directors, musical
directors, and directors have been most helpful. Yes, the horror stories
have also contributed by telling us what can happen with out prooper
preperatiion, as well as telling us we are not alone out there.

However, the real education needs to be not be directed just to the sound
designer, but to the director. After observing a lack of communication and
knowledge in the area of what a sound designer should be responsible for, I
am currently attempting to gently educate an artistic director of a
Shakespeare Festival (mixed equity and academia) as to what his director
and sound designer should do in terms of communication and duties to assure
an excellent show. Dealing with all those PhD's has not been easy, but
maybe some progress is being made.

Thanks again to everyone,

page daniel

[Richard B. Ingraham]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: theatre-s...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:theatre-s...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Mayo
> Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 11:28 AM
> To: theatre-s...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [theatre-sound-list] Re: Working with Impossible Directors
>
>

> I make a point (very slowly, with big hand gestures and
> diagrams if possible) that programming sound on a computer is
> the way forward for the consistancy of a show and helps
> maintain acurate performances on a daily basis and then
> stress very very clearly how we will never be able to program
> as quickly as lighting (well, quantum computing might help
> our grandkids!) and that the clearer the original idea of how

Huh?

I'm not sure why you would say that. I regularly work FASTER than the
lighting designer now days. Or I should say faster than many lighting
designers. I certainly rarely feel that I'm holding up the show (so to
speak) unnecessarily. No more so than anyone else does during the tech
rehearsal process at the very least.

There is no more rewinding tapes to play something over again. There is
rarely long conversations with a board op about what you want them to
try this time through. No waiting for the board op to write a small
diary about each sound cue. What's not faster than that "old days"?
:-)

I think people that feel sound is holding up the tech process are either
younger and they never worked in theatre when things were mostly on open
reel decks. Or they just have a bad memory. :-)

Not only is it a lot more repeatable with modern technology. It's a lot
faster than it used to be. It also allows much more complexity than we
could achieve without it. It allows a board op to pay a lot more
attention to the show as well. Spending less time worrying about cueing
up decks or setting levels and more time listening, and if you trust
them, allowing them to make minor adjustments to compensate for
variations in performances, house size, etc... And the big seller for
the producer..... you'll need less crew to achieve the same results.

I can not even image how many people it would take pushing faders and
running open reel decks, without computers or automation, to implement
many of my recent sound designs without them being simplified in some
fashion. It would be interesting to find out, if I ever had the time,
money and will power. But I doubt it will ever happen.

If that's not a good enough list of reasons to convince director types
that computers do actually make the sound of the show a lot better...
well... then I would say..... actually I won't say anything as it
would just offend the director types in question.. :-)

[Eric Snodgrass]

On Oct 9, 6:31 pm, "Richard B. Ingraham" <rbingra...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

> Not only is it a lot more repeatable with modern technology.  It's a lot
> faster than it used to be.  It also allows much more complexity than we
> could achieve without it.  It allows a board op to pay a lot more
> attention to the show as well.  Spending less time worrying about cueing
> up decks or setting levels and more time listening, and if you trust
> them, allowing them to make minor adjustments to compensate for
> variations in performances, house size, etc...    And the big seller for
> the producer.....   you'll need less crew to achieve the same results.  

Hoo boy, is this true! Earlier this year I did a three-show season as
sound designer for a small, brand new theater company. During the
tech of the first show the director kept asking for more complex cues
from the sound department. At that time we were using two CD players
and a Mackie board. Well, the requests became so complex that the
Stage Manager running both lights and sound would have had to grow two
more arms. Since that wasn't going to happen I knew I had to purchase
a computer-based cue system for the show.
After doing some cost research I presented the producer with a
proposal - the company would split the cost of the computer and sound
card, I would purchase the program, and in return they could use it
for the whole season (6 months) with no rental costs. After telling
him how much it would cost he readily agreed. He ended up saving
quite a bit of money, the Stage Manager only had to hit a space bar
for the entire season and I had the flexibility to give all the
directors virtually anything they asked.
I know I was lucky because a lot of producers would not spend the
money initially, but instead end up spending twice as much later on.

[Charlie Richmond]

On Thu, 9 Oct 2008, Richard B. Ingraham wrote:

> Huh?
>
> I'm not sure why you would say that. I regularly work FASTER than the
> lighting designer now days.

Agreed. Right from the beginning of our contribution to computer controlled
sound (1985) we started getting reports from Tony Tait of the Old Globe that he
was now faster than lighting and it has stayed that way ever since. These days,
some directors actually expect the composer to set up shop next to the sound
designer in the house and compose the music and tech the show simultaneously,
starting first day of tech and finishing two days later, maximum! Too fast for
my feeble old brain but some designers manage it...

Charlie

[Mike Glasspool]

Since most people are willing to spend more over a long period of time, it's what most rental shops rely on, as well as a few of the sound guys that I know that travel with certain gear and just rent it to the show on a daily basis. Usually it's small stuff like a mic kit, effects processor - I'm sure a lot of people here do similar things.. I'm considering finally purchasing a board that I can add on to my usual rates, since I find that many of my clients consult me before renting a board.. I've resisted in the past for a few reasons, one of which being I refuse to purchase a low end board that I won't be satisfied with, I'd prefer to spend a little cash and get something nice..

Now I'm just weighing if it will be worth it for me. Ideally I'd like to provide a nice package, sans speakers and amps, probably with some kind of computer control and playback system built in that tied into the mixer as well, all in a nice road case that'll fit in my car. But I think for what I'm looking at is around $20k right now, which is the sticking point ;)

[Eric Snodgrass]

I think one of the reasons productions rent instead of purchase could
be for accounting purposes. I believe the write-off for taxes is
different for rentals. When renting there are no depreciation
formulas to work out and there isn't a physical asset owned by the
production. If they purchased then they would also have storage
concerns, upkeep and maintenance concerns, and possibly compatibility
concerns if the equipment owned is not what the current designer wants
to use. Of course I'm speaking in general terms - each situation can
be unique.

[Brad]

This part of the thread is good. I have a show opening tomorrow with a
company I hadn't worked with before. They had used computer play back
before, but with limited output and (apparently) limited programming
capability. The director did want to talk before tech, but not a lot.
The one thing I pitched to her was that I used a design tool that
would allow us to change things almost instantly in tech. I also
showed up with an appropriate FX library for the show.
She was impressed at times with how fast changes could be made. We
were working on a complicated storm sequence that the lighting
designer and I missed on the first try and it was getting tedious.
Sound changes came much faster.
Afterwards I dropped, "Im glad I brought this, we wouldn't have this
done until tomorrow if I had to go into the studio to rebuild this
tonight."
It was a little cheap and obvious, but so true.
I think my point may be to communicate parts of your process ahead of
time. I suspect some directors still envision having to wait until the
next day for sound changes. Letting them know ahead of time what your
capabilities are, may make them more excited about sound for their
show.
(I didn't overstate how fast I could be-I wanted a little of the
credit! Sorry Stage research!)
In regionals and academia, a small responsibility to educate about the
profession (and to each other) may be in order. We've come a long way
baby!
The director offered me her next show as well! (Even with that 6.3.1
scroll thing!)
1985! Wow. I think my computer experience then was Oregon Train on a
Tandy. Maybe Downhill Skiing by then as well!
Brad Berridge


On Oct 10, 2:20 am, Charlie Richmond

[Thomas Vecchione]

Oregon Trail;)

    Thomas Vecchione

[Charlie Richmond]

On Fri, 10 Oct 2008, Thomas Vecchione wrote:

> Oregon Trail;)

They have that on facebook now....

C-)