Wireless Violin Pickups

[Tim Long]

Hello all,

Does anybody have experience with using wireless violin pickups? I was specifically asked about https://www.knapickups.com/en/violin/viola-pickups/vv-wi-pickup-kna/. I've reached out to the manufacturer with some specific technical questions about frequencies, playing well with other wireless, etc, so I'm just looking for any info from a sound person perspective.

For context, I have about 10 people in the show, with a mix of violin, viola, and cello. Each musician will have an IEM (likely Sennheiser, we're at the mercy of rental availability), and there will definitely be a few Shure ULX-D in use as well. A key part of this show is movement, as well as backing & click tracks, hence all the wireless.

We already did a work-in-progress show using ULX-D & DPA 4099s, which sounded great. With the ULX pack on their body & the mic on the instrument, they ended up being a bit more tethered than I think they expected to be. I think they're trying to get away from that as the previous question floated to me was about overhead area micing everything. This show techs the first week of January (2025) so I have a bit of time, but with the season it's less time than I think.

Thanks in advance,

Tim

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"Get a bicycle. You will not regret it, if you live." -- Mark Twain

[Steven Devino]

Are the string players in chairs or part of the on stage performance?  If they are sitting in chairs you could simplify life and use wired IEMs so you have less RF to coordinate.  

Otherwise most lave mics have violin and similar mounting options. There are also home made solutions. 

It would be easier to coordinate the RF if you use common body packs etc.

Steve Devino

On Nov 4, 2024, at 2:23 PM, Tim Long <tim...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Hello all,

Does anybody have experience with using wireless violin pickups? I was specifically asked abouthttps://www.knapickups.com/en/violin/viola-pickups/vv-wi-pickup-kna/. I've reached out to the manufacturer with some specific technical questions about frequencies, playing well with other wireless, etc, so I'm just looking for any info from a sound person perspective.

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[page daniel]

Good afternoon Tim, etal.

First it is not that hard to mix brands and models of wireless if you
have choices of frequency blocks. If it is a traveling show, you need
to choose gear that will operate in advance that will make it possible
to use in several locations with different spectrum problems. No matter
what brand or model wireless one uses Shure wireless work bench (a free
Tool thank you Shure) can give you a set of frequencies that do not
interfere. Since you mentioned a lot of movement I expect you plan using
as many as 10 wireless IEM's and 10 wireless transmitters. The first
thing one needs to be aware of is the placement of IEM transmitting
antennas with respect to wireless receiving antennas. The front ends of
many models of receivers can be swamped (desynthesized) and lose
sensitivity unless they are tunable. Also one should choose the
frequency bands for the IEM's and for the wireless pickups to be in
different parts of the spectrum which will allow you to insert a band
pass filter on the receiving antennas if the receivers do not perform
well with IEM transmitter RF. In any case all the chosen frequencies
need to be entered into an intermod calculation along with any other
wireless gear operating nearby.
Of course one needs to avoid the TV stations and Municipal channels, and
that must be done when choosing the wireless gear. The Shure frequency
finder and Rabbit ears info are fairly reliable in finding in advance
what TV channels are a problem at a given location. But watch out for
house announce mics and bring one of your own that fits your use of the
spectrum. And check for any wireless intercom frequencies operating in
the TV spectrum.

ULXD is a very popular Shure system and allows one to pack a lot of
wireless in crowded spectrums. I have a couple of sets of it, but I
have seldom used it with wireless IEM's. My preferred gear for IEM's is
a set of digital hybrid Lectrosonics with receivers that have tracking
front ends. Regular body packs work just fine.

Also over the years I have had no complaints with DPA bridge mounts with
DPA 461's for strings. For flutes and piccolos I have successfully use
an earset worn by the musician often just to keep the jungle of mics
sometimes needed by the reed player playing several instruments in a
pit orchestra. This also works for violins and viola. For wandering
minstrels I have used poster tack to mic the sound hole.

A resouce for mixing wireless IEM's and wireless microphones is RF
Venue's web site.

page











> if

> I'm just looking for any info from a sound person perspective. bl

[Art Zemon]

On Mon, Nov 4, 2024 at 4:24 PM page daniel <pa...@pagedaniel.com> wrote:

For flutes and piccolos  I have successfully use
an earset worn by the musician often just to keep the jungle of mics
sometimes needed by the reed player playing several  instruments in a
pit orchestra. This also works for violins and viola.

Page,

Do you just use a regular headset but aim the mic toward the instrument instead of toward the mouth? Or is there more to it than that?

    -- Art Z.

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My blog: CheerfulCurmudgeon.com

In a place where there are no humans, strive to be human. [Pirkei Avot 2:5]

[page daniel]

It kind of depends. I forgot the time I taped a lav (a DPA 4061) to a
violinist's glasses frame. Worked very well. I like to use a
directional E6 or DPA 4088 in a crowded pit. For flutes, etc I have had
success with pretty standard earset micing. For woodwinds I think the
clip on instrument rigs work well. Every instrument is different.
Accordions like a lav high on the chest. Hope to never have to mic a bag
pipe. Crowded pits are difficult and musicians can be trusted to move
the boomed mics away from the proper placement.

To avoid wireless, one can use the xlr cable on the Countryman or an
Ambient adapter for Lemo or TA5F. I have some various Shure (TA45F)
preamps as well, But i don't remember which one works best with which
mic.
Using a phantom powered mic into a body pack is best done with a Denecke
power supply.

page

[H. Cohen]

Might want to ask if this unit has a valid FCC ID number and certification and thus legal to use in the US.

Henry Cohen

[Daniel Chin]

Tim,
No surprise, coming from Page, but this is good and probably similar to
the direction I'd go. If going wireless, my two favorite techniques are
a headset on the violinist or there are several options for instrument
mounting—one musician I worked with touring in concert liked an omni
hung from the strings behind the bridge. I wouldn't dare touch the
bridge itself, but it provided tons of isolation and worked well for the
concerts we did and had the benefit of not needing to be super
instrument specific. Omnis in general are very forgiving to work with,
but in some situations, directionality can be useful for isolation from
other instruments or from loudspeakers. You can usually make either work
as long as you understand them and are willing and able to experiment.

I'll second all of Page's other advice too and will add that I've had to
coordinate RF for countless shows over the last few decades and have
generally found that sticking to Lectro, Shure and Sennheiser is a good
idea and with the latter two, staying above a certain minimum price
point is also wise. I've had some success with other brands or lower
cost models, but they tend to be less reliable, provide less technical
data, and require larger channel spacing and intermod avoidance spacing.
There are of course exceptions, but given your comments about already
using Sennheiser and Shure, I'd stick with those and not add the KNA,
though I don't have any direct experience with the KNA. Companies that I
do have experience using that market themselves similarly have generally
been okay as far as the pickups themselves go (though I have yet to
really be impressed), but pretty weak on RF and electrical
characteristics. Their target market seems to be musicians who are doing
relatively small shows without the support of regular professional audio
people. I'd expect they're probably fine for that. If you do have to
coordinate KNA with others, pay very close attention to channel and
intermod spacing for it—it's likely to be MUCH larger than ULX-D.

Daniel Chin


------ Original Message ------
From "page daniel" <pa...@pagedaniel.com>
To theatre-s...@googlegroups.com
Date 11/4/2024 5:06:20 PM
Subject Re: [theatre-sound-list] Flutes, Piccolos, Violins, Violas

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