Re: Relax!
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Mujyo
Nov 26, 2007, 5:39:36 AM11/26/07
to The Zen Centre
Great posting Tristan.
Yes - hard to say about other traditions, but Zen in the West has had
some problems with people taking up unreal expectations in their
practice. A pervading myth is that we practice to become calm and
serene, this has come about partly because of American authors and
teachers riding the Hippy wave, the imagery of Buddhism might be a
factor too, Iconographic images of Bodhisattva's such as Kannon have
been emphasized in modern Buddhism (It's interesting to note that
religious images from medieval societies in both in Japan and the
Europe are often harder images). Another is the therapeutic view if
you like, people sure they need to relax, or referred by some kind of
therapist, not a bad thing but not the core of practice as it's
sometimes presented as being.
There's a strong social factor too, our ancestors lived with death and
disease as accepted daily facts, today our cultures increasingly
demand explanations like "how could we allow this?" This is quite a
strong swing in our thinking compared to previous generations of
humans since we emerged as conscious beings. When you think about it
that's quite unprecedented. So we control our environment, our
comfort, surely this leads to being able at least to control our
happiness, ego, and health! This is our modern mindset as society,
which in turn emerge from Greeco-Indian Idealistic systems of
philosophy. It's very human (or monkey) to want things like this.
You say training for 'self improvement' -yes and no. As a short term
concept of something to aim for in practice - yes. If I take up
practice because I have an uncontrollable temper, depression or some
other deep problem, yes. But what then? No - because the Awakened
person comes to be free of that goal, this is not a philosophical
freedom, you can't just decide you don't care about your goals and
that means your Awakened now, that's still a Thought. Awakened Freedom
(Jiyu) is expressed in being. It's the difference between a
Calligraphy Artist who has hone a skill, and a Zen Master who's
calligraphy looks like Crows feet in ink. It can't be imagined or
sought or faked, it's nothing less than experiential expression of
Awakening - who am I - This.
Are Buddha's nice people? Are Buddha's people who have serene hearts?
Egoless? If you come to the answer 'yes' or at least 'I think they
should be, because they live in constant Samadhi' your practicing with
an ideal. You can't practice with ideals in fact, if you do then
your practicing with an out of control ego. Is your ego nice, calm,
turbulent, selfish? That's your practice in fact to find that out. Do
you extinguish it? No, that's a big mistake in thinking, thinking is
the problem here, all those things you like and don't like about
yourself make you who you are. Do you know who you are?
There's a Taoist story that's always been one of my favorites, it's
about just this very thing. A Taoist master is called upon by the
emperor of China to train a fighting Rooster. The imperial Cock must
be the best under heaven. Little by little the master extracts from
the animal various ego elements. Fear, doubt, pride, etc. Each time
the Emperor visits the progress of the animal it seems a little bit
more magnificent and invincible each time the Master says it's still
needs more training. Finally the Cock is presented to the Emperor, it
is no longer alive. Extracting all the flaws of personality have left
a dead thing that just stands like petrified stone - the facsimile of
it's former self. So perfect it has become useless and dead.
People quite often come to training it's seems confusing practicing
the Buddha Way with hating themselves. Or at least hating what they
think they fall short of being. It is surely difficult to grow
compassion from a position of Calvinistic inner hate.
Buddha Way is Middle Way.
On Nov 26, 6:50 pm, grb...@gmail.com wrote:
> Dear Tristan,
>
> It's good to exercise the body and to a certain extent the mind and to eat
> health food and drink plenty of water. Hatha Yoga and massage and stretching
> are good to relax the body and relase nervous tension while regulating the
> breathing. Tai Chi and other similar activites, some of which you mention
> are probably also useful in this regard. It's also essential to do our best
> to lead a simple, kind and compassionate life, get up early and do some
> walking.
>
> However, while as humans it is difficult for the ego to perform activities
> without goals and performance indicators, this is not over useful in Zen,
> apart from helping to prepare the body and nervous system for extended
> sitting practice. One cannot really sit without forming an idea of goals,
> (because we are human and the ego is strong) but, they are not really
> helpful. Also, one should not try and sit without goals, because this is a
> form of 'doing' and also not over helpful. On the other hand we should have
> some commitment and engage in a regular program of Zazen and plan to sit
> each sit for a certain period of time. Gets confusing doesn't it? If we must
> have an aim it is to sit in stillness and silence, however some helpful
> practice such as walking meditation and counting the breath are also helpful
> at the right time in promoting the eventual goals of stillness and silence.
> While we can only act on an individual basis, when enough of us practice
> regularly and receive instruction appropriate to our level of practice and
> understanding, the world will be a "better place". Indeed, if only one of us
> practices with "heart", the world will be a better place.
>
> Kind regards,
> Graeme
>
> On 23/11/2007, tristan <tder...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Many people think about making the world a better place through self
> > improvement or training^. And there are plenty of paradigms they use
> > to direct their efforts. For example, 'accumulating brownie points on
> > your soul through compassionate action' is an idea that crops up quite
> > often. I don't find that one very helpful so I have been thinking
> > about other ways to describe goals.
>
> > I remember once hearing from someone about the idea of tension in the
> > body, and eliminating that tension* as a goal for training. In that
> > case it was in the context of zazen but I have, in part, trained
> > towards that goal through Aikido and using the Feldenkrais method -
> > moving my body parts in harmony so as not to have them work against
> > one another.
>
> > Please expand this idea to body-and-mind and consider tension as the
> > result of conflicting desires. Rather than thinking of desirelessness,
> > one could train towards eliminating tension.
>
> > Firstly, is this a worthy goal or is it flawed?
>
> > What would it be like - to have your desires completely aligned? For
> > example, all your actions would be aligned also - totally committed.
> > You would have no self-doubt, although you could remain skeptical.
> > Sounds pretty good, huh?!
>
> > Could it backfire? Could you be aligned but be a bastard - totally
> > committed to selfish or hedonistic desires? Could you end up training
> > to improve only yourself and nothing else? Does it need corollaries to
> > make it work?
>
> > Is there a desire (or set of desires) that is immutable and would have
> > to be part of one's alignment? I.e. Would it act as a constraint on
> > your other desires? This would determine the limits within which a
> > person could choose the direction of their alignment and the desires
> > to be changed/eliminated.
>
> > Is the above simply a restating of the goal for desirelessness?
>
> > I would appreciate any thoughts or comments.
>
> > Thanks!
>
> > Tristan
>
> > -----------
>
> > *Tension is often thought of in a static context (forces with no
> > motion) but I am applying it here in a dynamic context (forces and
> > motion).
>
> > ^In martial arts and some buddhist circles people use the term
> > 'training' more than 'self-improvement'. 'Training' allows for
> > broader interpretation in my opinion.
Yes - hard to say about other traditions, but Zen in the West has had
some problems with people taking up unreal expectations in their
practice. A pervading myth is that we practice to become calm and
serene, this has come about partly because of American authors and
teachers riding the Hippy wave, the imagery of Buddhism might be a
factor too, Iconographic images of Bodhisattva's such as Kannon have
been emphasized in modern Buddhism (It's interesting to note that
religious images from medieval societies in both in Japan and the
Europe are often harder images). Another is the therapeutic view if
you like, people sure they need to relax, or referred by some kind of
therapist, not a bad thing but not the core of practice as it's
sometimes presented as being.
There's a strong social factor too, our ancestors lived with death and
disease as accepted daily facts, today our cultures increasingly
demand explanations like "how could we allow this?" This is quite a
strong swing in our thinking compared to previous generations of
humans since we emerged as conscious beings. When you think about it
that's quite unprecedented. So we control our environment, our
comfort, surely this leads to being able at least to control our
happiness, ego, and health! This is our modern mindset as society,
which in turn emerge from Greeco-Indian Idealistic systems of
philosophy. It's very human (or monkey) to want things like this.
You say training for 'self improvement' -yes and no. As a short term
concept of something to aim for in practice - yes. If I take up
practice because I have an uncontrollable temper, depression or some
other deep problem, yes. But what then? No - because the Awakened
person comes to be free of that goal, this is not a philosophical
freedom, you can't just decide you don't care about your goals and
that means your Awakened now, that's still a Thought. Awakened Freedom
(Jiyu) is expressed in being. It's the difference between a
Calligraphy Artist who has hone a skill, and a Zen Master who's
calligraphy looks like Crows feet in ink. It can't be imagined or
sought or faked, it's nothing less than experiential expression of
Awakening - who am I - This.
Are Buddha's nice people? Are Buddha's people who have serene hearts?
Egoless? If you come to the answer 'yes' or at least 'I think they
should be, because they live in constant Samadhi' your practicing with
an ideal. You can't practice with ideals in fact, if you do then
your practicing with an out of control ego. Is your ego nice, calm,
turbulent, selfish? That's your practice in fact to find that out. Do
you extinguish it? No, that's a big mistake in thinking, thinking is
the problem here, all those things you like and don't like about
yourself make you who you are. Do you know who you are?
There's a Taoist story that's always been one of my favorites, it's
about just this very thing. A Taoist master is called upon by the
emperor of China to train a fighting Rooster. The imperial Cock must
be the best under heaven. Little by little the master extracts from
the animal various ego elements. Fear, doubt, pride, etc. Each time
the Emperor visits the progress of the animal it seems a little bit
more magnificent and invincible each time the Master says it's still
needs more training. Finally the Cock is presented to the Emperor, it
is no longer alive. Extracting all the flaws of personality have left
a dead thing that just stands like petrified stone - the facsimile of
it's former self. So perfect it has become useless and dead.
People quite often come to training it's seems confusing practicing
the Buddha Way with hating themselves. Or at least hating what they
think they fall short of being. It is surely difficult to grow
compassion from a position of Calvinistic inner hate.
Buddha Way is Middle Way.
On Nov 26, 6:50 pm, grb...@gmail.com wrote:
> Dear Tristan,
>
> It's good to exercise the body and to a certain extent the mind and to eat
> health food and drink plenty of water. Hatha Yoga and massage and stretching
> are good to relax the body and relase nervous tension while regulating the
> breathing. Tai Chi and other similar activites, some of which you mention
> are probably also useful in this regard. It's also essential to do our best
> to lead a simple, kind and compassionate life, get up early and do some
> walking.
>
> However, while as humans it is difficult for the ego to perform activities
> without goals and performance indicators, this is not over useful in Zen,
> apart from helping to prepare the body and nervous system for extended
> sitting practice. One cannot really sit without forming an idea of goals,
> (because we are human and the ego is strong) but, they are not really
> helpful. Also, one should not try and sit without goals, because this is a
> form of 'doing' and also not over helpful. On the other hand we should have
> some commitment and engage in a regular program of Zazen and plan to sit
> each sit for a certain period of time. Gets confusing doesn't it? If we must
> have an aim it is to sit in stillness and silence, however some helpful
> practice such as walking meditation and counting the breath are also helpful
> at the right time in promoting the eventual goals of stillness and silence.
> While we can only act on an individual basis, when enough of us practice
> regularly and receive instruction appropriate to our level of practice and
> understanding, the world will be a "better place". Indeed, if only one of us
> practices with "heart", the world will be a better place.
>
> Kind regards,
> Graeme
>
> On 23/11/2007, tristan <tder...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Many people think about making the world a better place through self
> > improvement or training^. And there are plenty of paradigms they use
> > to direct their efforts. For example, 'accumulating brownie points on
> > your soul through compassionate action' is an idea that crops up quite
> > often. I don't find that one very helpful so I have been thinking
> > about other ways to describe goals.
>
> > I remember once hearing from someone about the idea of tension in the
> > body, and eliminating that tension* as a goal for training. In that
> > case it was in the context of zazen but I have, in part, trained
> > towards that goal through Aikido and using the Feldenkrais method -
> > moving my body parts in harmony so as not to have them work against
> > one another.
>
> > Please expand this idea to body-and-mind and consider tension as the
> > result of conflicting desires. Rather than thinking of desirelessness,
> > one could train towards eliminating tension.
>
> > Firstly, is this a worthy goal or is it flawed?
>
> > What would it be like - to have your desires completely aligned? For
> > example, all your actions would be aligned also - totally committed.
> > You would have no self-doubt, although you could remain skeptical.
> > Sounds pretty good, huh?!
>
> > Could it backfire? Could you be aligned but be a bastard - totally
> > committed to selfish or hedonistic desires? Could you end up training
> > to improve only yourself and nothing else? Does it need corollaries to
> > make it work?
>
> > Is there a desire (or set of desires) that is immutable and would have
> > to be part of one's alignment? I.e. Would it act as a constraint on
> > your other desires? This would determine the limits within which a
> > person could choose the direction of their alignment and the desires
> > to be changed/eliminated.
>
> > Is the above simply a restating of the goal for desirelessness?
>
> > I would appreciate any thoughts or comments.
>
> > Thanks!
>
> > Tristan
>
> > -----------
>
> > *Tension is often thought of in a static context (forces with no
> > motion) but I am applying it here in a dynamic context (forces and
> > motion).
>
> > ^In martial arts and some buddhist circles people use the term
> > 'training' more than 'self-improvement'. 'Training' allows for
> > broader interpretation in my opinion.
tristan
Nov 28, 2007, 1:46:33 PM11/28/07
to The Zen Centre
Thanks Graeme.
I find the idea of sitting neither with nor without a purpose rather
confusing, actually! Sitting with a purpose can make sense. Sitting
without a purpose could make sense - like wandering aimlessly or
doodling. Can you give me another example of doing something neither
with, nor without, a purpose? Or am I mistaken in thinking of sitting
as an action?
I find the idea of sitting neither with nor without a purpose rather
confusing, actually! Sitting with a purpose can make sense. Sitting
without a purpose could make sense - like wandering aimlessly or
doodling. Can you give me another example of doing something neither
with, nor without, a purpose? Or am I mistaken in thinking of sitting
as an action?
tristan
Nov 28, 2007, 2:09:27 PM11/28/07
to The Zen Centre
Thank you Sensei - plenty to digest.
The idea of awakened people as relaxed, nice people who never get
angry doesn't make sense. I actually imagined an awakened person to
simply act without doubt, self-consciousness or conflicting desires -
hence the idea of alignment. Which is starting to sound a little like
'purity', which is not a good idea...
Regarding sitting, is it more accurate to consider it an expression,
rather than an action? I think you might reply along the lines of
'don't think about it but do it anyway' but I am not all that
comfortable with doing something without thinking. Bad things can
happen when people act thoughtlessly.
Regards,
Tristan
The idea of awakened people as relaxed, nice people who never get
angry doesn't make sense. I actually imagined an awakened person to
simply act without doubt, self-consciousness or conflicting desires -
hence the idea of alignment. Which is starting to sound a little like
'purity', which is not a good idea...
Regarding sitting, is it more accurate to consider it an expression,
rather than an action? I think you might reply along the lines of
'don't think about it but do it anyway' but I am not all that
comfortable with doing something without thinking. Bad things can
happen when people act thoughtlessly.
Regards,
Tristan
Mujyo
Nov 29, 2007, 9:21:31 PM11/29/07
to The Zen Centre
If my last reply was a lot to digest then you might need a comfortable
chair a sandwich and a cup of coffee (or three beers was Ford
Prefect's preference I think) for this one then;
Yes to consider it(zazen) an Expression is probably better. It's
become traditional to say 'Action' but expression is better since you
sit to express your True Nature. But it is an action too and so that's
how the word has come about. This allows Expression not just in your
Zazen. A really important word in Rinzai tradition is Zen-ki, this
means the power of yourself expressed, we can also say Kan-ki -
thought/intuitive power - the same thing in simple terms.
Yes the doing without thinking is tricky - in fact the idea of
practice is to make yourself more aware rather than acting
thoughtlessly (without tipping into paranoia). Exercising conscience
is good, doing and saying 'the Buddha in me made me do it' is not, and
becoming 'stopped' or entangled on your actions and thoughts is not.
The act should not be arising thoughtlessly, in fact it should arise
from the deepest place possible, so though you act within the world
your are not the victim of it.
"...simply act without doubt, self-consciousness or conflicting desires
- hence the idea of alignment" this is partial, if fact it's to act
with doubt, self-consciousness or conflicting desires too! Form is
Emptiness, Emptiness is form.
It's useful to turn here to Tozan's Five Ranks, it's hung in the Zendo
at Jizoan above the doors leading to the Tokonoma, it's the picture
with 5 ink strokes.
Tozan's Five Ranks are as follows; The first rank of thought is
Relative(Form) within the Absolute (Emptiness), like when we have an
idea and say "it's relative position (seeing) to agreed reality' or
simply "it's all relative", people don't usually beyond this for
themselves. The next is Absolute within the Relative, "it's absolute
truth within a changing reality or thought', this is I think what you
mean by "to sound a little like 'purity', which is not a good idea" as
you say. Then the third rank is Standing within the Absolute, this is
what most people get stuck on, thinking this is the goal of Shugyo
(training heart). The forth is arriving at Integration, no longer
are Absolute and relative seen from a standpoint, in fact many people
think they are here having reached a philosophical understanding only,
and the last rank is Unity. Torie goes on in the Mujinto-ron to
compare this with the Triple Truth doctrine of the Tendai school of
meditative insight (first seeing into the Absolute, followed by seeing
the Relative, finally arriving by exhausting these two views at True
Nature, for more on this go to the Mujinto-ron, available in
translation and commentary as The Inexhaustible Lamp of the Zen
School). In actual fact many self styled Zen teachers of the later
part of the 20th century have led people to view Zen wrongly in this
way, a three stage method to a state of Emptiness. However in truth
Zen teaches that above this doctrinal/philosophical and temporary
understanding which is fine as it goes, ultimate understanding is
experiential, hence the emphasis on digging deeper - that's the Shugyo
part. Seeing into True nature (42) is not the end of training it's
just the beginning.
If this seems too much then 'just sit', but do not become attached to
just sitting (as we said within the Absolute), the correct view here
is 'just sit' with an awareness of the above as you do or you may
become mistaken about your actual insight. In fact Shugyo is to go
beyond an 'insight' getting back to the terms I explained at the start
of my reply.
chair a sandwich and a cup of coffee (or three beers was Ford
Prefect's preference I think) for this one then;
Yes to consider it(zazen) an Expression is probably better. It's
become traditional to say 'Action' but expression is better since you
sit to express your True Nature. But it is an action too and so that's
how the word has come about. This allows Expression not just in your
Zazen. A really important word in Rinzai tradition is Zen-ki, this
means the power of yourself expressed, we can also say Kan-ki -
thought/intuitive power - the same thing in simple terms.
Yes the doing without thinking is tricky - in fact the idea of
practice is to make yourself more aware rather than acting
thoughtlessly (without tipping into paranoia). Exercising conscience
is good, doing and saying 'the Buddha in me made me do it' is not, and
becoming 'stopped' or entangled on your actions and thoughts is not.
The act should not be arising thoughtlessly, in fact it should arise
from the deepest place possible, so though you act within the world
your are not the victim of it.
"...simply act without doubt, self-consciousness or conflicting desires
- hence the idea of alignment" this is partial, if fact it's to act
with doubt, self-consciousness or conflicting desires too! Form is
Emptiness, Emptiness is form.
It's useful to turn here to Tozan's Five Ranks, it's hung in the Zendo
at Jizoan above the doors leading to the Tokonoma, it's the picture
with 5 ink strokes.
Tozan's Five Ranks are as follows; The first rank of thought is
Relative(Form) within the Absolute (Emptiness), like when we have an
idea and say "it's relative position (seeing) to agreed reality' or
simply "it's all relative", people don't usually beyond this for
themselves. The next is Absolute within the Relative, "it's absolute
truth within a changing reality or thought', this is I think what you
mean by "to sound a little like 'purity', which is not a good idea" as
you say. Then the third rank is Standing within the Absolute, this is
what most people get stuck on, thinking this is the goal of Shugyo
(training heart). The forth is arriving at Integration, no longer
are Absolute and relative seen from a standpoint, in fact many people
think they are here having reached a philosophical understanding only,
and the last rank is Unity. Torie goes on in the Mujinto-ron to
compare this with the Triple Truth doctrine of the Tendai school of
meditative insight (first seeing into the Absolute, followed by seeing
the Relative, finally arriving by exhausting these two views at True
Nature, for more on this go to the Mujinto-ron, available in
translation and commentary as The Inexhaustible Lamp of the Zen
School). In actual fact many self styled Zen teachers of the later
part of the 20th century have led people to view Zen wrongly in this
way, a three stage method to a state of Emptiness. However in truth
Zen teaches that above this doctrinal/philosophical and temporary
understanding which is fine as it goes, ultimate understanding is
experiential, hence the emphasis on digging deeper - that's the Shugyo
part. Seeing into True nature (42) is not the end of training it's
just the beginning.
If this seems too much then 'just sit', but do not become attached to
just sitting (as we said within the Absolute), the correct view here
is 'just sit' with an awareness of the above as you do or you may
become mistaken about your actual insight. In fact Shugyo is to go
beyond an 'insight' getting back to the terms I explained at the start
of my reply.
grb...@gmail.com
Nov 30, 2007, 1:04:31 AM11/30/07
to the-zen...@googlegroups.com
Dear Tristan,
You're a tease. Rather than worry about actions and non actions it may be better to "just sit". I guess sitting on the cushion is an action and returning to the meditation object is an action, but in the end it's all just words and these can go round and round and up and down. I have a hazy recollection of something that goes a little like; " A teaching beyond words and scriptures". In the end, all the words get in the way and all we really need to do is just sit. However, being human our monkey mind wants a reason to "just sit". Why do we do it?
Kind regards,
Graeme
Mujyo
Nov 30, 2007, 1:42:17 AM11/30/07
to The Zen Centre
We aren't here to gossip but then we aren't here to burn books either.
" A teaching beyond words
and scriptures" is the most poorly understood quote made in Zen.
Simply falling back on this as just sit don't ask, don't think, don't
talk,on this hearkens back to the dead Dharma school of Zen. Just
sitting blankly with nothing else is 'Dead Zen'.
WHO IS HEARING THIS SOUND has to be passed before What is hearing
this sound. Who is this? Who is this?
Don't shrink away from this. Who is this?
Gassho,
" A teaching beyond words
and scriptures" is the most poorly understood quote made in Zen.
Simply falling back on this as just sit don't ask, don't think, don't
talk,on this hearkens back to the dead Dharma school of Zen. Just
sitting blankly with nothing else is 'Dead Zen'.
WHO IS HEARING THIS SOUND has to be passed before What is hearing
this sound. Who is this? Who is this?
Don't shrink away from this. Who is this?
Gassho,
> You're a tease. Rather than worry about actions and non actions it may be
> better to "just sit". I guess sitting on the cushion is an action and
> returning to the meditation object is an action, but in the end it's all
> just words and these can go round and round and up and down. I have a hazy
> recollection of something that goes a little like; " A teaching beyond words
> and scriptures". In the end, all the words get in the way and all we really
> need to do is just sit. However, being human our monkey mind wants a reason
> to "just sit". Why do we do it?
>
> Kind regards,
> Graeme
>
> better to "just sit". I guess sitting on the cushion is an action and
> returning to the meditation object is an action, but in the end it's all
> just words and these can go round and round and up and down. I have a hazy
> recollection of something that goes a little like; " A teaching beyond words
> and scriptures". In the end, all the words get in the way and all we really
> need to do is just sit. However, being human our monkey mind wants a reason
> to "just sit". Why do we do it?
>
> Kind regards,
> Graeme
>
grb...@gmail.com
Dec 2, 2007, 3:09:09 AM12/2/07
to the-zen...@googlegroups.com
Dear Tristan,
We do it because in a deep place we are not at ease. There is more than one kind of emptiness. If one feels this, it can take a long time to resolve. Of course there must be action and intention; action toward motivation, and if that is difficult, appropriate assistance and in the beginning, any reason to sit will do. "All things arise during Zazen", and that is the truth. The work is then to recognise and then work with these truths. Sometimes there may be a flash of intuitive realisation, however, the norm is long, hard, slow work. If one is doing dead Zen, then one is away with the fairys. If one is doing Zen, then one may have to visit the same realm over and over again until a soft form of crystalisation occurs that one can take out into the world. Sorry, I mentioned the 'doing' word. Do we do Zen, or does Zen do us? My reference to doing is that these arising 'things' arise by themselves and that we don't get actively involved with them. If we get involved, the process won't work and this is the deep truth of Zen.
Kind regards,
Graeme
We do it because in a deep place we are not at ease. There is more than one kind of emptiness. If one feels this, it can take a long time to resolve. Of course there must be action and intention; action toward motivation, and if that is difficult, appropriate assistance and in the beginning, any reason to sit will do. "All things arise during Zazen", and that is the truth. The work is then to recognise and then work with these truths. Sometimes there may be a flash of intuitive realisation, however, the norm is long, hard, slow work. If one is doing dead Zen, then one is away with the fairys. If one is doing Zen, then one may have to visit the same realm over and over again until a soft form of crystalisation occurs that one can take out into the world. Sorry, I mentioned the 'doing' word. Do we do Zen, or does Zen do us? My reference to doing is that these arising 'things' arise by themselves and that we don't get actively involved with them. If we get involved, the process won't work and this is the deep truth of Zen.
Kind regards,
Graeme
jon lamotte
Dec 5, 2007, 12:34:55 AM12/5/07
to The Zen Centre
"Does it need corollaries to make it work?" Yes
I think the development of ethics and the refinement of our moral
intuitions such an important field that we should train ourselves for
it. The basic foundation of such training would be the desire for self
improvement, with an open and skeptical mind. I honestly think that if
our only goal is self-improvement, mixed with the open/skeptical mind
this will progress to a stance which accepts each moment as potential
joy for ourselves, in anything we can do. Meditation trains this
accepting potential (note that meditation can be anything, even
thinking).
This potential is then funneled using our ethics (this man be where
you alignment concept comes into play). Ethics being a structure which
is open to the new ideas of philosophy and science.
If it is ethical to be compassionate towards others and our intuitions
have been trained (via self improvement) to the degree to recognise
the joy available (potential) in each moment, which is not anchored to
any other personal desires, then we should be compassionate. If it is
ethical to promote freedom of speech, then we should do it. The weight
of each ethical stance can then be purely objective and require no
'ego' or desire within ourselves. Find out what is most worth while,
match it to your skills and do it.
I have enjoyed reading some of the other posts.
Cheers,
Jon
"Is there a desire (or set of desires) that is immutable and would
have to be part of one's alignment? I.e. Would it act as a constraint
on your other desires?" Yes.
have to be part of one's alignment? I.e. Would it act as a constraint
I think the development of ethics and the refinement of our moral
intuitions such an important field that we should train ourselves for
it. The basic foundation of such training would be the desire for self
improvement, with an open and skeptical mind. I honestly think that if
our only goal is self-improvement, mixed with the open/skeptical mind
this will progress to a stance which accepts each moment as potential
joy for ourselves, in anything we can do. Meditation trains this
accepting potential (note that meditation can be anything, even
thinking).
This potential is then funneled using our ethics (this man be where
you alignment concept comes into play). Ethics being a structure which
is open to the new ideas of philosophy and science.
If it is ethical to be compassionate towards others and our intuitions
have been trained (via self improvement) to the degree to recognise
the joy available (potential) in each moment, which is not anchored to
any other personal desires, then we should be compassionate. If it is
ethical to promote freedom of speech, then we should do it. The weight
of each ethical stance can then be purely objective and require no
'ego' or desire within ourselves. Find out what is most worth while,
match it to your skills and do it.
I have enjoyed reading some of the other posts.
Cheers,
Jon
Mujyo
Dec 19, 2007, 10:58:34 PM12/19/07
to The Zen Centre
I've enjoyed this too. Zen is "the teaching beyond words" but it's not
without words. In fact it needs them or we would just be tapping our
noses together knowingly hoping we are all knowing of the same silent
truth.
I want to take up Jon's ethics in practice
Ethical practice/meditation to shape our compassion - absolutely. This
offers counter to the inevitable selfishness that first drives us to
practice. Yes there's an element of selfishness. No matter how
unselfishly you believe when you first phrase the question to yourself
"What is this world? Who am I? Why am I? Why is it?" After all who are
you to ask those questions? Who do you think you are to dare? There's
an ego belief that there's an answer to those question's that I can
know from that potentially grows, if we don't give up or are not
distracted, along the way. Well even a cat can look at a Queen as the
saying goes. So who are you to ask such a thing?
This brings me to what psychologists call Autonomy. A person's sense
of self and their ability to maintain it. In an ethical practice we
maintain Autonomy, even encourage and stimulate it. A good skilled
Roshi should do so anyway. Autonomy is tricky however, because it's
easily mistaken or subverted for self interest, selfishness. An
Autonomous person maintains and stimulates the ability to make their
practice work for them freely but in doing so not at the expense of
others or themselves. (Jon's ethical practice).
Difficult though, many people through some weakness in themselves,
perhaps the very weaknesses they came into practice looking to cure,
fall into replacing Autonomy with Selfishness, if they're really good
at it they can mask this quite well from themselves and others. It
requires deep hard self discipline.
I've always been quite interested in rise of Nazism and quite frankly
any other radical extreme conservative political and social systems.
Eichmann, the SS officer who managed the concentration camps
maintained in his defense that he was a soldier following orders, it's
known as the 'Eichmann defense'. It is to say I have no personal
responsibility it's just how it is/was. Many other SS men did too. So
this raised some questions at what point is someone responsible for
their actions and thoughts. Some Allied intelligence officers after
interviewing many SS soldiers said that they observed that many did
not seem to know right from wrong. If so then they acted without a
personal sense of Autonomy. But I believe that though they may have
done so the troubling fact is that at some point they made a decision
or took a path that led them to lose that Autonomy. In other words
term they became conditioned to what they were doing, to the point
wrong no longer entered into it, it was perhaps self fulfilling for
them as part of the 'Solution'. This is tricky to admit, because a
standing order existed to execute these men, and following the war a
standard belief has been upheld publicly that the people who acted the
worst in the regime were an anomaly among human society. It's still
controversial today to admit in any way that these soldiers were in
anyway ordinary citizens, people just like you and me with mothers,
fathers, families, the nice man who delivered the milk, and all rest
of it prior to conditioning. They must have been damaged sociopaths
so we have been told. Perhaps if we believe that then we have lost our
Autonomy too.
The notion of a 'Solution' is I believe very important here. Once we
ask a question we seek a solution to it. If selfishness drives this
question on and on we can convince ourselves that we are the
'solution' or at least a part of it. This is the same drive that
allows a suicide bomber to carry out his attack - I might add a
Hinnayanist monk dousing himself with petrol too. Faith in an answer
is turned around from something that may potentially grow to something
that ends life. Un-ethically convinced that we have found our
knowledge of the solution to all our answers we lose our Autonomy.
Each and every day you must come back to who am I? And maintain it.
Not allowing yourself to be tricked. By others? By yourself, because
losing your Autonomy, becoming selfish, and the conditioning that
follows starts only with ourselves. No matter how manipulative the
system, the group, the leader there's always a crossroad.
So what about those people those situations that powerful force of
conditioning?
without words. In fact it needs them or we would just be tapping our
noses together knowingly hoping we are all knowing of the same silent
truth.
I want to take up Jon's ethics in practice
Ethical practice/meditation to shape our compassion - absolutely. This
offers counter to the inevitable selfishness that first drives us to
practice. Yes there's an element of selfishness. No matter how
unselfishly you believe when you first phrase the question to yourself
"What is this world? Who am I? Why am I? Why is it?" After all who are
you to ask those questions? Who do you think you are to dare? There's
an ego belief that there's an answer to those question's that I can
know from that potentially grows, if we don't give up or are not
distracted, along the way. Well even a cat can look at a Queen as the
saying goes. So who are you to ask such a thing?
This brings me to what psychologists call Autonomy. A person's sense
of self and their ability to maintain it. In an ethical practice we
maintain Autonomy, even encourage and stimulate it. A good skilled
Roshi should do so anyway. Autonomy is tricky however, because it's
easily mistaken or subverted for self interest, selfishness. An
Autonomous person maintains and stimulates the ability to make their
practice work for them freely but in doing so not at the expense of
others or themselves. (Jon's ethical practice).
Difficult though, many people through some weakness in themselves,
perhaps the very weaknesses they came into practice looking to cure,
fall into replacing Autonomy with Selfishness, if they're really good
at it they can mask this quite well from themselves and others. It
requires deep hard self discipline.
I've always been quite interested in rise of Nazism and quite frankly
any other radical extreme conservative political and social systems.
Eichmann, the SS officer who managed the concentration camps
maintained in his defense that he was a soldier following orders, it's
known as the 'Eichmann defense'. It is to say I have no personal
responsibility it's just how it is/was. Many other SS men did too. So
this raised some questions at what point is someone responsible for
their actions and thoughts. Some Allied intelligence officers after
interviewing many SS soldiers said that they observed that many did
not seem to know right from wrong. If so then they acted without a
personal sense of Autonomy. But I believe that though they may have
done so the troubling fact is that at some point they made a decision
or took a path that led them to lose that Autonomy. In other words
term they became conditioned to what they were doing, to the point
wrong no longer entered into it, it was perhaps self fulfilling for
them as part of the 'Solution'. This is tricky to admit, because a
standing order existed to execute these men, and following the war a
standard belief has been upheld publicly that the people who acted the
worst in the regime were an anomaly among human society. It's still
controversial today to admit in any way that these soldiers were in
anyway ordinary citizens, people just like you and me with mothers,
fathers, families, the nice man who delivered the milk, and all rest
of it prior to conditioning. They must have been damaged sociopaths
so we have been told. Perhaps if we believe that then we have lost our
Autonomy too.
The notion of a 'Solution' is I believe very important here. Once we
ask a question we seek a solution to it. If selfishness drives this
question on and on we can convince ourselves that we are the
'solution' or at least a part of it. This is the same drive that
allows a suicide bomber to carry out his attack - I might add a
Hinnayanist monk dousing himself with petrol too. Faith in an answer
is turned around from something that may potentially grow to something
that ends life. Un-ethically convinced that we have found our
knowledge of the solution to all our answers we lose our Autonomy.
Each and every day you must come back to who am I? And maintain it.
Not allowing yourself to be tricked. By others? By yourself, because
losing your Autonomy, becoming selfish, and the conditioning that
follows starts only with ourselves. No matter how manipulative the
system, the group, the leader there's always a crossroad.
So what about those people those situations that powerful force of
conditioning?
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