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niyas abbas
Nov 17, 2012, 6:52:53 AM11/17/12
to niyas abbas
----- Forwarded Message -----
From: niyas abbas <niyas...@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Saturday, 17 November 2012, 12:42
From: niyas abbas <niyas...@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Saturday, 17 November 2012, 12:42
The Duel - Q3 - Concept of Heaven, Hell, Angels, Satan etc … in Buddhism …
Dear Shamika,
My apologies for the delay in my reply. I have a few points to raise .... You wrote about many planes or realms of life after death (Kamaloka) .... which you categorized in to three ... Misery, Human life, Heavenly Life ...
Islam too has the similar concept ... Human life is what we are now in ... Then the life in Hell (Misery) and Heaven (felicity)... Islam says the latter two realms will last for very long period in to eternity .... Buddhism says it lasts for very long period but limited. But Buddhism say eventually it will end up in eternity of Nibbana after many cycles of death and life in Minisloka ( thru' Re-birth - I will come to this later).
Should We Rely on a Scripture ...
Since you took these belief system from one of the many versions of Buddhist scriptures written down 500 years after Buddha and passed on to generations after generations (with many "reforms" in between as confirmed by Veeraketiye Amrarawansa Thero, a renowned scholar of Tripitake), how do you explain the allegations thrown often by Buddhists at Islam that Muslims rely on a belief taken out of an ancient Book transferred from generations to generations. THis allegation is based on a quote from Tripitake where Buddha is supposed to have told ... as summarized below ...
Never accept anything, simply because....
1. It is written down in a scripture.
2. Told by a teacher including Buddha himself ...
3. Transferred as tradition
4. Believe only after you have experienced it. etc etc.
Is this correct ... Do you also subscribe to the same allegation against the single version of Qur'an, preserved in its original language of revelation as it was revealed, 1400 years ago? How will you explain/rely your belief in such a Buddhist scripture ...?
Now coming to Majjhima Nikaya III - where Buddha specifically spoke the truth of HELLFIRE ... and described in extremely fearful manner then he said ... (Refer to the full text below)
``Bhikkhus, I say this not hearing from another
recluse or brahmin, this is what I have myself known and seen and so I say
it."
Compelling Similarities ...
The description given by Buddha looks almost similar to Islam .... Can you elevate yourself to admit to this similarity ... Though Buddha says it is limited (but durations in hellfire possibly runs in to thousands of years ..) though Buddhism says it is limited and Islam says it is eternal ... Don't you fear this punishment ...? Do you or any other Buddhist remember going thru' such a punishment in their past lives? As a non-Buddhist I don't remember for sure!
But the most astonishing similarity is the evil person in the hell doesn't die even after a hot iron spike is pierced thru' his chest, for years ... Islam too says so. Now please read this ... from MN III ... (copied below)
I also see the similarities in different types of miseries of Hell and the pleasures of heavens ..
In Islam Hell is divided in to different categories with degrees of punishment ... Similarities of Ghosts & Demons are comparable to the entity of Satan (Mara in Buddhism) .... they are all destined to Hell. Yet in Islam they are not from Human world but from the world of Jinns. Jinns are another community of beings similar to humans but in an invisible plane. Quran was revealed to both of us. Do you have the equivalent of Jinns in Buddhism?
If you can describe Mara and his rightful place in Buddhism it might be useful for our discussion.
Prohibitions in Buddhism are similar to Islam
According to Buddha there is "questioning" like in Islam after death. Punishments proclaimed by Buddha for evil actions are so severe, that if Buddhists believe in it, it is indeed the prohibition / deterrence of doing evil, though you claim there is no forced prohibitions. This is very similar to Islam. A typical example is the lack of legislation prohibiting consumption of Liquor in Sri Lanka. Yet we believe in the punishment associated with it in hell and as a result we avoid liquor through fear. But since Buddhists hid this aspect or did not emphasize this, they all "pride" in the use of false "freedom" to consume alcohol freely, or fornication (pre-marital sex), gambling, killing etc though a severe deterrent is in place under Buddhism as I copied below from Majjhima Nikaya III.
Heavens & Houruleins
Heavens too have different degrees ... Jennatul Firdouse being the highest of them all ... perhaps this could be close to Thusitha Heaven of Buddhism .... If you will describe the life there in detail, I am sure my assertion could be verified.
What about the similarities between Houruleins of Islam and Nymphs of Buddhism ... Can you agree these are similar with a little difference ..
I will take up Tirachchana (Animal) Realm with Re-Birth.
From above inferences, if I consider your words as correct,
Niyas
Dear Shamika,
My apologies for the delay in my reply. I have a few points to raise .... You wrote about many planes or realms of life after death (Kamaloka) .... which you categorized in to three ... Misery, Human life, Heavenly Life ...
Islam too has the similar concept ... Human life is what we are now in ... Then the life in Hell (Misery) and Heaven (felicity)... Islam says the latter two realms will last for very long period in to eternity .... Buddhism says it lasts for very long period but limited. But Buddhism say eventually it will end up in eternity of Nibbana after many cycles of death and life in Minisloka ( thru' Re-birth - I will come to this later).
Should We Rely on a Scripture ...
Since you took these belief system from one of the many versions of Buddhist scriptures written down 500 years after Buddha and passed on to generations after generations (with many "reforms" in between as confirmed by Veeraketiye Amrarawansa Thero, a renowned scholar of Tripitake), how do you explain the allegations thrown often by Buddhists at Islam that Muslims rely on a belief taken out of an ancient Book transferred from generations to generations. THis allegation is based on a quote from Tripitake where Buddha is supposed to have told ... as summarized below ...
Never accept anything, simply because....
1. It is written down in a scripture.
2. Told by a teacher including Buddha himself ...
3. Transferred as tradition
4. Believe only after you have experienced it. etc etc.
Is this correct ... Do you also subscribe to the same allegation against the single version of Qur'an, preserved in its original language of revelation as it was revealed, 1400 years ago? How will you explain/rely your belief in such a Buddhist scripture ...?
Now coming to Majjhima Nikaya III - where Buddha specifically spoke the truth of HELLFIRE ... and described in extremely fearful manner then he said ... (Refer to the full text below)
Compelling Similarities ...
The description given by Buddha looks almost similar to Islam .... Can you elevate yourself to admit to this similarity ... Though Buddha says it is limited (but durations in hellfire possibly runs in to thousands of years ..) though Buddhism says it is limited and Islam says it is eternal ... Don't you fear this punishment ...? Do you or any other Buddhist remember going thru' such a punishment in their past lives? As a non-Buddhist I don't remember for sure!
But the most astonishing similarity is the evil person in the hell doesn't die even after a hot iron spike is pierced thru' his chest, for years ... Islam too says so. Now please read this ... from MN III ... (copied below)
Quote, "Bhikkhus, the king of the under word having
finished cross questioning, asking for reasons and studying together about the
fifth divine messenger becomes silent.
Then the warders of hell give him the
fivefold binding. That is two hot iron spikes are sent through his two palms, and two
other hot spikes are sent through his two feet and the fifth hot iron spike is
sent through his chest. On account of this he experiences sharp piercing
unpleasant feelings. Yet he does not die, until his demerit finishes.
" Un-quoteI also see the similarities in different types of miseries of Hell and the pleasures of heavens ..
In Islam Hell is divided in to different categories with degrees of punishment ... Similarities of Ghosts & Demons are comparable to the entity of Satan (Mara in Buddhism) .... they are all destined to Hell. Yet in Islam they are not from Human world but from the world of Jinns. Jinns are another community of beings similar to humans but in an invisible plane. Quran was revealed to both of us. Do you have the equivalent of Jinns in Buddhism?
If you can describe Mara and his rightful place in Buddhism it might be useful for our discussion.
Prohibitions in Buddhism are similar to Islam
According to Buddha there is "questioning" like in Islam after death. Punishments proclaimed by Buddha for evil actions are so severe, that if Buddhists believe in it, it is indeed the prohibition / deterrence of doing evil, though you claim there is no forced prohibitions. This is very similar to Islam. A typical example is the lack of legislation prohibiting consumption of Liquor in Sri Lanka. Yet we believe in the punishment associated with it in hell and as a result we avoid liquor through fear. But since Buddhists hid this aspect or did not emphasize this, they all "pride" in the use of false "freedom" to consume alcohol freely, or fornication (pre-marital sex), gambling, killing etc though a severe deterrent is in place under Buddhism as I copied below from Majjhima Nikaya III.
Heavens & Houruleins
Heavens too have different degrees ... Jennatul Firdouse being the highest of them all ... perhaps this could be close to Thusitha Heaven of Buddhism .... If you will describe the life there in detail, I am sure my assertion could be verified.
What about the similarities between Houruleins of Islam and Nymphs of Buddhism ... Can you agree these are similar with a little difference ..
I will take up Tirachchana (Animal) Realm with Re-Birth.
From above inferences, if I consider your words as correct,
- I believe that Islam and Buddhism go closely hand in hand in the field of Heaven and Hell and other related beliefs in intangible entities.
- A closer study will surely reveal its original source as one and the same ...
- There is no evidence for our Prophet (S) to have copied such concepts from Buddhist scriptures, but it was revealed to him by Almighty God, the closest equivalent to God in Buddhism being Maha Brahma.
- Such concepts also proves that "original" Buddhism is not a PHILOSOPHY but has to be categorized as a RELIGION similar to many others.
Niyas
From: Shamika Soysa <shami...@hotmail.com>
To: niyas abbas <niyas...@yahoo.co.uk>; Channa Lokuliyana <pol.sa...@gmail.com>; Islam Lanka <islamla...@gmail.com>; Sarath De Alwis Sirisena Gammampila
Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2012, 8:28
Subject: Re: The Duel - Q3 - Concept of Heaven, Hell, Angels, Satan etc … in Buddhism …
To: niyas abbas <niyas...@yahoo.co.uk>; Channa Lokuliyana <pol.sa...@gmail.com>; Islam Lanka <islamla...@gmail.com>; Sarath De Alwis Sirisena Gammampila
Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2012, 8:28
Subject: Re: The Duel - Q3 - Concept of Heaven, Hell, Angels, Satan etc … in Buddhism …
Dear Niyas,
Extremely sorry for the delay. I was not even had a time
to read your Q. Anyway, this is the best question you raised so far. Let me
remind you Condition 4 & 5 before I proceed;
4. You can question Buddhism from
me but you should not preach Buddhism to me as I know my Buddhism better than
you.
5. I can question Islam from you
but I should not preach Islam to you as you know your Islam better than
me.
We are in the process of you questioning me and after
your six questions I am planning to question you on Islam.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The extract of yours regarding hell and
heaven contains many details but I would like to describe this in a simple
manner "pasting" two articles that I have written in my "Abhidhamma in a
Nutshell" series to Daily News.
A person who is with an ill-full mind always engaged in nasty,
unwholesome evil act and spends a restless life. Such person always feels that
s/he is living in a hell. Extreme
attachment, aversion, hatred, ill-will, ignorance, blindness are the feelings he
always suffer with. Such person would gather plenty of unwholesome kamma
and reborn in a place of suffering and continue the life in a place like hell.
In contrast honest, virtuous and generous people who always engage in wholesome
acts of Charity (Dhana), Righteousness (Seela), and
Meditation (Bhavana) would live with sensations of generosity, goodwill
and wisdom. Such person would spend a heavenly life and would reborn in pure
heavenly places as a result of wholesome kamma gathered in this life.
This is a natural law and together with law of kamma it is common to all
the beings.
31 Realms of existence
There are 31 “Planes” or “Realms” of existence for a being to be
reborn during the long journey of samsara. These 31 planes are divided
into three;
- Sensuous worlds – Kama Loka/bhava - 11
- Form worlds – Rupa loka/bhava - 16
- Formless worlds – Arupa loka/bhva - 4
The 11 types of sensuous
worlds include the 4 states of misery the realms of suffering, the human realm
where we live and 6 heavenly realms occupied by Devas. Four realms of
suffering are known as Kamadugatti (states of deprivation or
apaya). Rests of the 7 realms are known as Kamasugatti.
The following table summarises the 11 sensuous worlds;
|
Sensuous worlds – Kama
Loka | ||
|
Kamadugatti |
Kamasuggari | |
|
Realms of
misery |
Human
realm |
Heavenly
realms |
|
1.
Hell – Niraya
2.
Animals – Tirachchana
3.
Hungry ghosts – Peta Loka
4.
Demons – Asura |
5.
Human beings – Manussa Loka |
6.
Chathurmaharajika
7.
Tavatimsa
8.
Yamaka
9.
Tusita
10.
Nimmanarathi
11.
Parinimmita-vasavatti |
Depending on ones past kamma and kamma and
consciousness arise at the time of death that being would navigate among these
worlds and the rest of 20 realms during samsara. The worst state of
existence is at the realms of misery and getting rid of those realms are harder
than getting into them. However, it should be noted that life in none of these
31 planes of existence are not eternal. There is a possibility for any being to
fall into one of the realms of misery based on kamma vipaka of their
action. Neither the joy in 6 heavenly realms nor in
other 20 realms is permanent. Therefore the ultimate joy is beyond these realms
and that is to attain Nibbana to get rid of all these realms.
As ordinary human beings, it is beyond our capabilities to
visualise all these 31 planes of existence. But the
realm of animals (thirachchana) and the human realm (manussa loka)
could be seen by anybody so that the existences of other realms are to be
understood accordingly.
The next question is how one
reaches one of these realms. This is by advancing the
Mind.
You may have experienced a situation where you are looking at a
particular object continuously with a blank mind. Your mind would have
registered that object thoroughly, such a way that you would see that object
even with closed eyes. Sometimes this situation would have gone further that you
would conceptualise this object just as a mode of an appearance. An aspirant who
would be meditating to improve and purify the mind would follow a similar
procedure to achieve higher states of mind.
Developing Jhanas (Dhyana) through
Meditation
54 types of consciousness pertaining to sensuous-sphere
(kamavachara chiththas) would arise depending on the acts one would
perform. The one who has engaged in many good deeds and developed many moral
consciousnesses (kusala chiththas) and is not interested in ordinary
sense desires would start Meditating (Bhavana) to improve and purify the
mind. The first step of such a person is to engage in “Meditations of
Concentration” (Samatha Bhavana). The one who is thorough with samatha
bhavana would proceed to “Meditation of things as they truly are”
(Vipassana Bhavana) which leads to the Enlightment
(Nirvana).
By samatha bhavana one could develop higher mental states
which are known as “Jhanas” (Dhyana). Jhana is so called because it
thinks closely of an object or because it burns those adverse things
(hindrances). Jhana is also willful concentration of an object.
The one who expect to develop Jhanas, would select a “Preliminary
Object” which is called the Parikamma Nimiththa (There are defined
objects to select as parikamma nimiththa and instructions of using these
objects are also available in the texts written on Meditation). Then the
aspirant would intently concentrate on this object by excluding all the other
thoughts from mind. On progress meditator would come to a situation where the
object could be visualized even with closed eyes. This “Visualized Image” is
known as the Uggaha Nimiththa. By further concentrating on this
visualized object the meditator would come to a situation where s/he would see
just a mode or appearance or a perception of the object which is a
“Conceptualised Image” known as Patibhaga Nimiththa.
When he continually concentrates on this abstract concept he is in
possession of what is called “Proximate Concentration”, the Upachara
Samadhi which temporary inhibit the Five Hindrances to Nirvana (Pancha
Neewarana), namely, Sense-desire (Kamachchandha), Hatred
(Vyapadha), Sloth and Torper (Thina-Midhdha), Restlessness and
Brooding (Uddachcha-Kukkuchcha) and Doubt (Vivhikichcha) (these
hindrances will be discussed in detail future). Then he gains the “Ecstatic
Concentration” or the Appana Samadhi and becomes enwrapped with the
serenity of Jhana.
The above state of Jhana is achieved by concentrating on a form of
object. Therefore, the first category of Jhana, developed by an aspirant are
called “Rupa Jhanas”. All the Jhana states are of moral consciousness.
Those who develop Rupa Jhana, if died with that Jhana state, would be
born in any of the 16 types of Form worlds (Rupa lokas/bhvas). Similarly,
further development of mind would result an aspirant to be reborn in 4 types of
Formless worlds (Arupa lokas/bhavas).
Depending on the gravity and degree of ordinary wholesome and
unwholesome acts, deeds and consciousness one would reborn in any of the
Sensuous worlds. There are acts which would definitely take a person
into some of the sensuous realms. For example, if one kills one's own
parents that person is destined to realms of misery.
Simply, it is all about
advancing mind to get rid of hindrances, unwholesome consciousness, evil
thoughts and etc. In this path mind or the consciousness is getting
purified which should be the ultimate objective of a Buddhist.
With the above explanation I
have dealt with your questions on hell and heaven. Two more things are missing
and I would like to clarify them below;
-
Not all Buddhist can enter monkhood and not everyone enter monkhood can attain Nibbana. It is same as not everyone can do Mathematics in their A/Ls and not everyone do Mathematics for their A/Ls can go to Universities and not everyone who go to Universities becomes Mathematicians and etc. One need certain skill and effort to achieve things. Still a Buddhist is not supposed to postpone Nibbana to next life and a Buddhist must try to attain Nibbana or work towards it in this life itself even though this is not an easy task. On the other hand Buddha has not asked everyone to attain Nibbana because he knew that not everybody can do that. But Buddha's doctrine has many things for lay people as well to lead a better life and to attain Nibbana.
-
No one throws anyone to hell or heaven and no one is there to judge the destination of being after the death. It is one's own kamma, actions, deeds and consciousness would take him or her to any of the 31 realms.
I don't understand the
similarities you have found in Islam for the concept of heaven and hell in
Buddhism. That is not important to me as well. But I say above with proper
authenticity to the doctrine of Buddha.
From: niyas abbas
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2012 6:50 PM
To: Channa Lokuliyana ; Islam
Lanka ; Sarath De Alwis Sirisena Gammampila ;
Sandarshani
Gunawardhana ; Sandya Arachchi ; Sarath
Subject: The Duel - Q3 - Concept of Heaven, Hell, Angels, Satan etc
… in Buddhism …
The Duel - Q3 - Presence of the concept of Heaven, Hell, Angels, Satan etc … in Buddhism …
Buddhism extensively talks of the
entities of Heaven (Swarga) and Hellfire (Apaya) … not in metaphoric terms but in
real terms .. almost similar to Islam. It talks of Angels (Devas & brahmas),
it also talks of many heavens in layers where Buddha and monks visited and met
with angels … This contradicts the sayings of many Buddhists
“One should not believe in anything unless one experiences it” trying hard to
negate the concept of belief in Islam.
Point 1
Venerable K. Sri Dhammananda Maha Thera
writes … here … http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/whatbudbeliev/303.htm
The wise man makes his own heaven while the
foolish man creates his own hell here and hereafter.
He also writes …
The Buddha's Teaching shows us that there are heavens
and hells not
only beyond this world, but in this very world itself.
Point 2
Are there Heavens
& Hellfire beyond this life …. According to Buddhism?
When you die do you
end in Hell or Heaven as Buddha said?
Point 3
If Heaven is a place of comfort,
abundance and a place where there is no suffering as we all know … and if we are
capable of making our life a heaven here ….
Why do you long for “EXTINCTION”
thru’ Nibbana?
What is the thrill in going “EXTINCT”
when … not one human likes to die and leave this world?
Why do >99% of Buddhists love the
luxuries of this life in place of taking the basic step of Monkhood on the path
to “EXTINCTION”?
Out of the few Monks who took the
courage to shun worldly pleasures why are so many INSINCERE?
This brings us to the question of
practicality of Buddhism universally?
I
mean not name sake Buddhists but Buddhists who believe and trust the teachings
of Buddha …. And take at least the first step to Nibbana through Monkhood rather
than leave it to another birth in distant future ...
Point 4
MAJJHIMA NIKAYA III
3. 10. Devadåtasuttaü
(130) The Heavenly Messengers
3. 10. Devadåtasuttaü
(130) The Heavenly Messengers
In the above
chapter (I have copied it at the end of this
..) …
Buddha talks of Hellfire for wrong doers … and talks of
QUESTIONING the individual at its gate … then throwing them in Fire,
severe punishments follow in many stages … for long long
periods …
At the end Buddha says …
``Bhikkhus, I say
this not hearing from another recluse or brahmin, this is what I have myself
known and seen and so I say it”
When does this happen? Who will enter
this hell … Do Muslims and non-Buddhists or “Kafirs” enter this hell …
Why
don’t Buddhists take this warning seriously as Muslims do and warn us about it
like we do?
Alcoholics, gamblers, fornicators,
murderers, rapists, prostitutes, cheaters, those who use vulgarism, idol
worshipers (as gods) etc etc … Are they all destined to hell
…
Do you have the concept of
“Forgiveness”?
Who keeps count of our “good” and
“bad deeds of every individual (if you believe in re-birth – of thousands of
previous births)? Do you have “proof” for accounting Kamma?
Point 5
A story in Dheega Nikaya 11 says a Monk travelled to many
heavens and met many “people” and angels and brahmas … I read somewhere even
Buddha visited those “worlds’ … Could this be similar to the
Heavenly visit to the seven heavens by our Prophet (s), called “Isra wal Mi’raj”? What was their mode of
transport?
All these concepts are rather close
to Islamic belief too …
IS BUDDHISM A RELIGION LIKE ANY OTHER
WHICH BELIEVES IN SUCH THINGS MENTIONED ABOVE … ISLAM IN PARTICULAR … let’s
exclude God and Maha Brahma for the time being …
This is a vast topic but I am
limiting it to the bare minimum …
Let us understand this with
EXTREME
SINCERITY
without anger and dismay
… Can you answer in straight forward real terms without abstract non
understandable terms, noting that Buddha is quite explicit in describing in
detail the punishments in HELL.
Over to you Shamika!
Niyas
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
HEAVEN AND HELL IN BUDDHISM
MAJJHIMA NIKAYA III
3. 10. Devadåtasuttaü
(130) The Heavenly Messengers
3. 10. Devadåtasuttaü
(130) The Heavenly Messengers
I heard thus.
At one time the Blessed One was living in
the monastery offered by Anàthapiïóika in Jeta's grove in Sàvatthi. The Blessed
One addressed the bhikkhus from there. Bhikkhus, like a
man standing between two houses with doors standing adjacently would see people
entering, leaving, wandering and roaming in the two houses. Likewise I see with
my heavenly eye purified beyond human, beings disappearing and appearing,
unexalted and exalted, beautiful and ugly, in heaven and in hell. I see beings
according their actions: These good beings conducting well by body,
speech and mind, not blaming noble ones, developing right view, bearing the
right view of actions, at the breakup of the body, after death, go to increase,
are born in heaven. These good beings conducting
well by body, speech and mind, not blaming noble ones, developing right view,
bearing the right view of actions, at the breakup of the body, after death, are
born with humans. These good beings mis -conducting by body, speech and mind,
blaming noble ones, developing wrong view, bearing the wrong view of actions, at
the breakup of the body, after death, are born in the sphere of ghosts These good beings misconducting by
body, speech and mind, blaming noble ones, developing wrong view, bearing the
wrong view of actions, at the breakup of the body, after death, are born with animals. These good beings misconducting by
body, speech and mind, blaming noble ones, developing wrong view, bearing the
wrong view of actions, at the breakup of the body, after death, decrease, and
are born in hell.
Bhikkhus, the wardens of hell take him by his hands
and feet and show him to the king of the under world `Lord, this man is
unfriendly, not uniting, not chaste, does not honour the elders in the family,
mete him the suitable punishment.
The king of the under world cross
questions, asks for reasons and studies together with him thus. `Good man did
you not see the first divine messenger among humans?' He says `Sir I did not
see,' Then the king of the under world would ask him. `Good man didn't you see a
todler who stands and lies with difficulty, mingled in his own urine and excreta
while lying?' Then he says, `Sir, I saw. `The king of the under world asks him.
`Goodman, being a wise aged one, didn't it occur to you, I have not gone beyond
birth, now I will do some good by body, words and mind?' He would say, `Sir, I
could not do. owing to negligence' The king of the under world says. `Good one,
owing to negligence you acted in that manner. This evil action was not done by
your, mother, father, brother, sister, friends, co -associates or blood
relations. It was not done by recluses, brahmins or gods, it was done by you and
you will experience its results.
Bhikkhus, the king of the under world
having finished cross questioning, asking for reasons and studying together
about the first divine messenger asks him'Good man did you not see the second
divine messenger among humans?' He says `Sir I did not see,' Then the king of
the under world would ask him. `Good man didn't you see among humans a woman or
man, eighty or ninety years old, decayed and bent like the framework of a roof,
going about supported on a stick, shivering, ill, the youth gone, with broken
teeth, grey hair, spotted wrinkled skin?' Then he says, `Sir, I saw. `The king
of the under world asks him. `Goodman, being a wise aged one, didn't it occur to
you, I have not gone beyond decay, now I will do some good by body, words and
mind?' He would say, `Sir, I could not do. owing to negligence' The king of the
under world says. `Good one, owing to negligence you acted in that manner. This
evil action was not done by your, mother, father, brother, sister, friends, co
-associates or blood relations. It was not done by recluses, brahmins or gods,
it was done by you and you will experience its results.
Bhikkhus, the king of the under word having
finished cross questioning, asking for reasons and studying together about the
second divine messenger asks him'Good man did you not see the third divine
messenger among humans?' He says `Sir I did not see,' Then the king of the under
world would ask him. `Good man didn't you see among humans a woman or man,
gravely ill immersed in his own urine and excreta, raised by others and
conducted by others?' Then he says, `Sir, I saw. `The king of the under world
asks him. `Goodman, being a wise aged one, didn't it occur to you, I have not
gone beyond illness, now I will do some good by body, words and mind?' He would
say, `Sir, I could not do. owing to negligence' The king of the under world
says. `Good one, owing to negligence you acted in that manner. This evil action
was not done by your, mother, father, brother, sister, friends, co -associates
or blood relations. It was not done by recluses, brahmins or gods, it was done
by you and you will experience its results
Bhikkhus, the king of the under word having
finished cross questioning, asking for reasons and studying together about the
third divine messenger asks him'Good man did you not see the fourth divine
messenger among humans?' He says `Sir I did not see,' Then the king of the under
world would ask him. `Good man didn't you see among humans an offender taken
hold by the king and given various kinds of torture caned and whipped, flogged
with the jungle rope, flogged with the soiled stick, hands severed, legs
severed, or both hands and legs severed, ears and nose severed, put in the
boiling gruel pot, shell tonsured, put in Ràhu's mouth, garlanded with the
blazing garland, hands scorched, the bark dress given, put with snakes, put
hooks in the flesh, cut pieces of flesh from the body, drive a spike from ear to
ear, beat to make the body like straw, immerse in the boiling oil, give to the
dogs to be eaten, raise on a spike alive until death, and cut the neck with the
sword?'. Then he says, `Sir, I saw. `The king of the under world asks him.
`Goodman, being a wise aged one, didn't it occur to you, the results for evil
actions are here and now there is no other alternative. Now I will do some good
by body, words and mind?' He would say, `Sir, I could not do. owing to
negligence' The king of the under world says. `Good one, owing to negligence you
acted in that manner. This evil action was not done by your, mother, father,
brother, sister, friends, co -associates or blood relations. It was not done by
recluses, brahmins or gods, it was done by you and you will experience its
results
Bhikkhus, the king of the under word having
finished cross questioning, asking for reasons and studying together about the
fourth divine messenger asks him'Good man did you not see the fifth divine
messenger among humans?' He says `Sir I did not see,' Then the king of the under
world would ask him. `Good man didn't you see among humans a woman or man dead
after one day, two days or three days, bloated and turned blue?' Then he says,
`Sir, I saw. `The king of the under world asks him. `Goodman, being a wise aged
one, didn't it occur to you, I too will be subject to death, I have not gone
beyond it. Now I will do some good by body, words and mind?' He would say, `Sir,
I could not do. owing to negligence' The king of the under world says. `Good
one, owing to negligence you acted in that manner. This evil action was not done
by your, mother, father, brother, sister, friends, co -associates or blood
relations. It was not done by recluses, brahmins or gods, it was done by you and
you will experience its results
Bhikkhus, the king of the under word having
finished cross questioning, asking for reasons and studying together about the
fifth divine messenger becomes silent.
Then the warders of hell give him the
fivefold binding. That is two hot iron spikes are sent through his two palms, and two
other hot spikes are sent through his two feet and the fifth hot iron spike is
sent through his chest. On account of this he experiences sharp piercing
unpleasant feelings. Yet he does not die, until his demerit finishes.
Next the warders of hell conduct him and
hammer him. On account of this he experiences
sharp piercing unpleasant feelings. Yet he does not die, until his demerit
finishes. Next the warders of hell take him upside down
and cut him with a knife. On account of this too he experiences sharp
piercing unpleasant feelings. Yet he does not die, until his demerit finishes.
Next the warders of hell yoke him to a cart and make
him go to and fro on a ground that is flaming and ablaze On account of
this too he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings. Yet he does not die,
until his demerit finishes. Next the warders of hell make him ascend and descend a rock of burning ambers
On account of this he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings. Yet he
does not die, until his demerit finishes. Next the warders of hell throw him upside down into a boiling, blazing pot of molten.
There he is cooked in the molten scum, and he on his own accord dives in comes
up and goes across in the molten pot. On account of this too he
experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings. Yet he does not die, until his
demerit finishes. Next the warders of hell throw him to the Great Hell.
The square Great Hell has four gates and is divided in
two,
Enclosed by iron walls, is closed with
an iron lid.
The floor spreads for seven hundred
miles,
And it stands there every
day.
A fire
springs from the eastern wall of the
Great Hell to scorch the western wall. A fire
springs from the western wall to scorch the eastern wall. A fire springs from
the northern wall to scorch the southern wall. A fire springs from the southern wall
to scorch the northern wall. A fire springs from the bottom to scorch the
top and a fire springs from the top to scorch the bottom. There he
experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings, yet he does not die until his
demerit comes to an end.
Bhikkhus, after the lapse of a very long
time, it happens that the eastern door of the
Great Hell opens. Then he runs with great speed, in doing so he burns his outer
skin, inner skin, flesh, nerves, and even the bones smoke, even if he pulls
himself out, it happens. When he had, had enough of it the door closes. There he
experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings, yet he does not die until his
demerit comes to an end.
Bhikkhus, after the lapse of a very long
time, it happens that the western door of the
Great Hell opens. Then he runs with great speed, in doing so he burns his outer skin, inner skin, flesh, nerves,
andeven the bones smoke, even if he pulls himself out, it happens. When he had,
had enough of it the door closesThere he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant
feelings, yet he does not die until his demerit comes to an
end.
Bhikkhus, after the lapse of a very long
time, it happens that the eastern door of the
Great Hell opens. Then he runs with great speed, in doing so he burns his outer skin, inner skin, flesh, nerves, and
even the bones smoke, even if he pulls himself out, it happens. He escapes
through that door.
Parallel and together with the Great
Hell is the Hell of Excreta he falls into that.
In it there are needle mouthed living things, that pierce the outer skin, then
the inner skin, after that the flesh, the nerves and even the bones and they
eat the bone marrow. There he experiences sharp
piercing unpleasant feelings, yet he does not die until his demerit comes to an
end.
Parallel and together with the Hell of
Excretais the Hell where hot ashes rain, he
falls into that. There he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings, yet he
does not die until his demerit comes to an end.
Parallel and together with the Hell
where hot ashes rain, is the Simbali forest,
more than seven miles tall, it has thorns sixteen
inches long, aflame and blazing, he climbs on them and goes to and fro on
them. There he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings, yet he does not
die until his demerit comes to an end.
Parallel and together with the Simbali
forest, is a forest of swords. He enters that.
The leaves that fall with the wind, cut his feet,
hands, feet and hands, ears, nose, ears and nose. There he experiences
sharp piercing unpleasant feelings, yet he does not die until his demerit comes
to an end.
Parallel and together with the forest of
swords is a huge salt water river. He falls into
that. In it he is carried up stream and down stream. There he experiences sharp
piercing unpleasant feelings, yet he does not die until his demerit comes to an
end.
Then the warders of hell pull him out with a
hook and ask him. `Good man, what do you desire?' He says, `Sir, I'm
hungry,' The warders of hell open his mouth with hot
iron spikes and pour into his mouth burning,
flaming iron balls. They burn his lips, mouth, throat, chest, the
intestines, the lower intestines and they come out with the insides There he
experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings, yet he does not die, until his
demerit comes to an end.
Then the warders ask him. `Good man,
what do you desire?' He says, `Sir, I'm
thirsty,' The warders of hell open his mouth with hot iron spikes and
pour into his mouth burning, flaming copper
molten They burn his lips, mouth, throat, chest, the intestines, the
lower intestines and they come out with the insides. There he experiences sharp
piercing unpleasant feelings, yet he does not die, until his demerit comes to an
end.
Then the warders of Hell put him back to the Great Hell.
In the past to the king of the Under World
it occurred thus. To those who do evil in the world, these various punishments
are given. O! If I gain humanity. O! If the Thus Gone One, perfect and
rightfully enlightened is born in the world. O! I should associate that Blessed
One. O! the Blessed One should teach me and I should know that
Teaching.
``Bhikkhus, I say this not hearing from another
recluse or brahmin, this is what I have myself known and seen and so I say
it.û
Then the Blessed One further
said.
Those humans that are negligent, when
blamed by the divine messengers
Are born in low births, there they grieve long
Are born in low births, there they grieve long
The appeased and worthy ones blamed by the divine
messengers,
Are not negligent in the noble Teaching any day.
They see fear in holding, birth, death and being
And release themselves without holding, destroying birth and death
They are the appeased and pleasant, the extinguished here and now
Gone beyond all fear and revenge, have gone beyond all unpleasantness.
Are not negligent in the noble Teaching any day.
They see fear in holding, birth, death and being
And release themselves without holding, destroying birth and death
They are the appeased and pleasant, the extinguished here and now
Gone beyond all fear and revenge, have gone beyond all unpleasantness.
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