What About The Barley?
Theda
Is it pertinent today? Do we still offer a wave sheaf? Does it define
the beginning of the year?
One thing - to count to pentecost we are to count from the morrow
after the sabbath, from the day of the wave sheaf.
Theda
Pat
show you why I think that.
Do we still offer a wave sheaf?
Jesus rose to be accepted by the Father as the firstfruits of those
who will be raised from the dead. He did this on exactly the correct
day for the wave sheaf offering, and I'll show that to you. We don't
wave a literal sheaf of the firstfruits of a crop today, Jesus is our
better wave sheaf offering once and for all. Most people celebrate
this day as Easter Sunday. They've got the day correct, the wave sheaf
offering was always waved on "the morrow after the Sabbath". So Jesus
is our wave sheaf, and we know what day it was to happen on, it's the
"Sunday" (first day of the week) after Passover.
Jesus is the firstfruits:
1Cor.15 [20] But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the
firstfruits of them that slept.
When was he "waved" to be accepted?
John.20 - See verse 17, Mary wasn't to touch him in the morning, but
later that evening they could:
[1] The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was
yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the
sepulchre. ...
[17] Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to
my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my
Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. ...
[19] Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week,
when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear
of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them,
Peace be unto you.
[20] And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his
side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
[21] Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father
hath sent me, even so send I you.
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto
them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Luke 24 shows that Jesus walked and talked and had dinner with the
disciples that night, so he was touchable in the evening, after he had
"been waved" to be accepted on our behalf. We will be the rest of the
crop who will be raised from the dead.
This shows that Jesus first ascended to the Father as our wave sheaf
offering on the "morrow after the Sabbath" exactly as prescribed in
the Law. Passover was fulfilled on Passover, Pentecost was fulfilled
on Pentecost, and our wave sheaf offering was fulfilled on the
correct day, too.
Lev.23 - the wave sheaf offering is 7 weeks before Pentecost, (and
they're both on "the morrow after the Sabbath"):
[10] Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be
come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest
thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your
harvest unto the priest:
[11] And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for
you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
[12] And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb
without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD.
[13] And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine
flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a
sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the
fourth part of an hin.
[14] And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears,
until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God:
it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your
dwellings.
[15] And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath,
from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven
sabbaths shall be complete:
[16] Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number
fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.
Does it define the beginning of the year?
According to God, yes. He said the first month of the sacred year is
"Abib". If you want to know when the holy days are, you have to get
the months and days right. Otherwise you'll be keeping common days as
holy and holy days as common.
We can know what "abib" means because of one verse, Ex 9: 31. It's
Strong's Concordance word # 24, and here it is in a few translations
so you can see what the word abib means, it's a stage of ripeness of
the barley:
KJV - Exd 9:31 -
And the flax and the barley was smitten: for the barley [was] in the
ear, and the flax [was] bolled.
NKJV - Exd 9:31 -
Now the flax and the barley were struck, for the barley was in the
head and the flax was in bud.
NIV - Exd 9:31 -
(The flax and barley were destroyed, since the barley had headed and
the flax was in bloom.
ESV - Exd 9:31 -
(The flax and the barley were struck down, for the barley was in the
ear and the flax was in bud.
NASB - Exd 9:31 -
(Now the flax and the barley were ruined, for the barley was in the
ear and the flax was in bud.
RSV - Exd 9:31 -
(The flax and the barley were ruined, for the barley was in the ear
and the flax was in bud.
That tells us that abib is barley in the ear or headed. This makes
sense, because if they were to offer a wave sheaf of the firstfruits
about the middle of the first month, then that's how you know it's the
1st month. (Barley is the first grain to be ready to harvest, so the
firstfruits will be barley.) If the firstfruits won't be ready for
another month, then you add the 13th month to make it so the
firstfruits will be ready in the first month, not the 13th or the 2nd.
So yes, God said abib defines the beginning of the year. and here are
the scriptures that say this:
Exod.13 - see Abib in verse 4, and how it's related to the holy days:
[3] And Moses said unto the people, Remember this day, in which ye
came out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage; for by strength of
hand the LORD brought you out from this place: there shall no leavened
bread be eaten.
[4] This day came ye out in the month Abib.
[5] And it shall be when the LORD shall bring thee into the land of
the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Hivites,
and the Jebusites, which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee, a
land flowing with milk and honey, that thou shalt keep this service in
this month.
[6] Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, and in the seventh day
shall be a feast to the LORD.
[7] Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days; and there shall no
leavened bread be seen with thee, neither shall there be leaven seen
with thee in all thy quarters.
[8] And thou shalt shew thy son in that day, saying, This is done
because of that which the LORD did unto me when I came forth out of
Egypt.
[9] And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a
memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD's law may be in thy mouth:
for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt.
[10] Thou shalt therefore keep this ordinance in his season from year
to year.
Exod.23 - The days of Unleavened bread are in the month of Abib:
[14] Three times thou shalt keep a feast unto me in the year.
[15] Thou shalt keep the feast of unleavened bread: (thou shalt eat
unleavened bread seven days, as I commanded thee, in the time
appointed of the month Abib; for in it thou camest out from Egypt: and
none shall appear before me empty:)
Exod.34 - we see that Passover, the Night to be Much Remembered, and
the Exodus were in the month of Abib:
[18] The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou
shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the
month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.
Deut.16 - Direct command to observe the month of Abib and all that is
included in that month:
[1] Observe the month of Abib, and keep the passover unto the LORD thy
God: for in the month of Abib the LORD thy God brought thee forth out
of Egypt by night.
[2] Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the LORD thy God,
of the flock and the herd, in the place which the LORD shall choose to
place his name there.
[3] Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou
eat unleavened bread therewith, even the bread of affliction; for thou
camest forth out of the land of Egypt in haste: that thou mayest
remember the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all
the days of thy life.
[4] And there shall be no leavened bread seen with thee in all thy
coast seven days; neither shall there anything of the flesh, which
thou sacrificedst the first day at even, remain all night until the
morning.
[5] Thou mayest not sacrifice the passover within any of thy gates,
which the LORD thy God giveth thee:
[6] But at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his
name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going
down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.
[7] And thou shalt roast and eat it in the place which the LORD thy
God shall choose: and thou shalt turn in the morning, and go unto thy
tents.
[8] Six days thou shalt eat unleavened bread: and on the seventh day
shall be a solemn assembly to the LORD thy God: thou shalt do no work
therein.
[9] Seven weeks shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven
weeks from such time as thou beginnest to put the sickle to the corn.
[10] And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the LORD thy God with
a tribute of a freewill offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give
unto the LORD thy God, according as the LORD thy God hath blessed
thee:
[11] And thou shalt rejoice before the LORD thy God, thou, and thy
son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and
the Levite that is within thy gates, and the stranger, and the
fatherless, and the widow, that are among you, in the place which the
LORD thy God hath chosen to place his name there.
[12] And thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt: and
thou shalt observe and do these statutes.
There's the reference in verse 9 that you mentioned Theda, from the
time of the beginning of the harvest, which would be the firstfruits,
you count 7 weeks for the Feast of Weeks, aka Pentecost. The wave
sheaf offering is the beginning of the seven weeks, and Pentecost is
at the end of the seven weeks.
You have to get the first month of the year right to get the holy days
right. Abib is the first month, and the firstfruits are harvested in
that month. So I'm going with, yes, it matters, and yes, Abib defines
the beginning of the year because God said so.
Pat
Theda
Do you see this as the weekly sabbath or the annual sabbath of the
first day of Unleavened Bread?
I have no conflict with the scriptures you've quoted but I don't see
anything that nullifies Genesis 1:14 or Psalms 19: 1-3.
Do you totally discount the sun and moon for defining the years and
months?
If there were no barley would there still be a moon? Would there still
be months?
ADDING a 13th month is like adding to the word of God. He has already
supplied the 13th month, courtesy of the moon. There's no need to ADD
if we just follow the pattern He has already placed in the sky. There
will be a 13th moon before the beginning of the next solar year, at
the Vernal Equinox. We didn't put it there. He did.
> time of the beginning of the harvest, which would be the ...
>
> read more »
Pat
>
> ADDING a 13th month is like adding to the word of God. He has already
> supplied the 13th month, courtesy of the moon. There's no need to ADD
> if we just follow the pattern He has already placed in the sky. There
> will be a 13th moon before the beginning of the next solar year, at
> the Vernal Equinox. We didn't put it there. He did.
>
Hi Theda,
We're saying exactly the same thing; God and the earth's cycles
determines when a year will have 13 new moons in it, it isn't man's
decision or arbitrary.
Here are the Karaite Jews saying the same thing you said:
"The biblical year began with the first New Moon after the barley in
Israel reached the stage in ripeness called Abib. The period between
one year and the next was either 12 or 13 lunar months. Because of
this, Karaites checked the state of the Barley crop at the end of the
12th month. If the barley was Abib at this time, then the following
New Moon was Hodesh Ha-Aviv ("New Moon of the Abib"). If the barley
was still immature, the Karaites waited another month and then checked
the barley again at the end of the 13th month."
That's from http://www.bibarch.com/concepts/Calendrics/Karaite_Calendar.htm
Also, when you go by Abib deciding which month is the first month,
then it's in harmony with the equinox. I'm trying to find the website
I saw; some people who go by the barley kept track for several years
to see how they compared. From their data, when you decide the first
month of the year by Abib, then the vernal equinox falls within that
first month of the year. They're in agreement, the abib and the
equinox are both in the first month. If you wanted to say that the
first new moon of the new year is the one BEFORE the vernal equinox,
that would put you in agreement with abib, they would both be in the
same month, in agreement.
However, if you want to say that the equinox is the determining
factor, and that the NEXT new moon AFTER the equinox is the first new
moon of the new year, then you would be one month later. You would
have firstfruits ready one month, and you'd be calling the following
month the first month. Your firstfruits for the wave sheaf offering
would have to be held over to be waved in the next month. For one,
they couldn't eat any of the new harvest before they offered the wave
sheaf offering, and more importantly, God said to wave it on the
morrow after the Sabbath after it was harvested, so they shouldn't
hold it over until the next month.
I believe the Rabbi's modified and calculated calendar uses the new
moon NEAREST the vernal equinox. From what I remember on the abib vs
equinox data that I saw, that didn't agree, because sometimes the
equinox was as late as Abib 17. Anything after Abib 14 wouldn't be the
CLOSEST new moon. I also remember seeing Abib 3, 6, and 13, and I'm
trying to remember what I searched for on the web that I found that
data. I'll keep trying.
If you put the sun's position as the overriding factor, and choose the
new moon AFTER that to be the new year, that doesn't come out the same
as using abib as the overriding factor. When you go by abib like God
said to, then it's in agreement with the equinox, which will occur
during the month of Abib. It will work per God's instructions; the
first fruits will be ready to harvest, they'll be cut, they'll be
waved on the morrow after the sabbath, and from there you count 7
weeks to The Feast of Weeks.
Lev 23:10-11 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them,
When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap
the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of
your harvest unto the priest: And he shall wave the sheaf before the
LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the
priest shall wave it.
You asked which sabbath I think this is, it's the weekly sabbath after
the firstfruits were ready to cut. There is nothing to link it to an
annual Sabbath. If it was linked to an annual sabbath instead of the
weekly Sabbath, then Pentecost would move and fall on various days of
the week. But we see by the instructions that The Feast of Weeks will
be on "the morrow after the sabbath".
Lev 23:15-16 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the
sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering;
seven sabbaths shall be complete: Even unto the morrow after the
seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new
meat offering unto the LORD.
You're always starting to count from the morrow after the sabbath, and
you're always ending on the morrow after the sabbath, so that tells
you that it's a weekly sabbath, not an annual sabbath that can fall on
other days of the week.
In the New Testament with Jesus as our firstfruits, which weekly
sabbath should we count from? The one AFTER Jesus rose from the dead.
The fact that Jesus was the first to be risen from the dead made him
the firstfruits, so the wave sheaf day can't be before he was risen
from the dead. God's instructions say to wave the sheaf on the morrow
after the sabbath after they were harvested.
Pat
Theda
confusing. I hope everything I'm about to write will come across in a
soft voice. If I use all caps it's for emphasis because italics are
not available. Please don't take it as yelling.
I'll try to take this in small bites.
The Jewish Calendar will begin the moon count at the new moon nearest
the vernal equinox. This year they will call that 13th new moon
( which is truly the last new moon of winter) the beginning of the
first month because it it the new moon nearest the equinox. The
analogy I offer is that 11:45 a.m. is not 12 noon. Close, but still of
the eleventh hour, in the same way that the 13th new moon is not "of"
the new year but "of" the last days of winter, overlapping the
equinox. But the first new moon "of" the new year is a month ( one
complete moon cycle) later.
Another analogy is the proverbial "cart before the horse". The
technique you describe (which is the one used for the Jewish Calendar)
has the "barley pulling the moon". The reality is the other way
around. By using the "signs" in God's calendar in the sky, the barley
will be abundantly green, the color of "abib" AFTER the start of the
new year which is signaled by the Vernal Equinox.
If we simply accept what God's time keeping apparatus in the sky says
- there will be no lack of ripe barley. If there is any abib barley
before the beginning of the new year, and the Jewish Calendar decides
to call that 13th new moon the FIRST new moon - then it goes against
the signs of God. The barley does not define the month. God's moon
does.
In the Jewish tradition, the day of the Wave Sheaf Offering is the
second day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the first day being an
annual sabbath. They will count "from the morrow after the
sabbath...from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave
offering...seven sabbaths shall be complete...Even unto the morrow
after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days." This technique
takes them to Sivan 6, which travels through the days of the week on
the Gregorian calendar. In 2010 Shauvot will be Sunset of May 18
through nightfall of May 20, which will be sunset Tuesday until
sunset Thursday. That's the Jewish tradition.
Your observation that "UNTO the morrow after the seventh sabbath"
describes the first day of the week following the weekly sabbath is
right on target as I see it. The COG tradition is to count from the
Sunday within the days of Unleavened bread, seven weeks complete. The
Jewish tradition is to count to Sivan 6 regardless of the day of the
week.
That's enough for now. There's more. There's always more! But I'm
sitting in a draft and I'm cold.
Theda
On Dec 17, 9:18 pm, Pat <pat.schul...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Dec 17, 9:13 am, Theda <thedahor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > ADDING a 13th month is like adding to the word of God. He has already
> > supplied the 13th month, courtesy of the moon. There's no need to ADD
> > if we just follow the pattern He has already placed in the sky. There
> > will be a 13th moon before the beginning of the next solar year, at
> > the Vernal Equinox. We didn't put it there. He did.
>
> Hi Theda,
>
> We're saying exactly the same thing; God and the earth's cycles
> determines when a year will have 13 new moons in it, it isn't man's
> decision or arbitrary.
>
> Here are the Karaite Jews saying the same thing you said:
>
> "The biblical year began with the first New Moon after the barley in
> Israel reached the stage in ripeness called Abib. The period between
> one year and the next was either 12 or 13 lunar months. Because of
> this, Karaites checked the state of the Barley crop at the end of the
> 12th month. If the barley was Abib at this time, then the following
> New Moon was Hodesh Ha-Aviv ("New Moon of the Abib"). If the barley
> was still immature, the Karaites waited another month and then checked
> the barley again at the end of the 13th month."
>
> That's fromhttp://www.bibarch.com/concepts/Calendrics/Karaite_Calendar.htm
Pat
On Dec 18, 6:23 am, Theda <thedahor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> No, Pat, we are not saying the same thing at all. I know it's
> confusing. I hope everything I'm about to write will come across in a
> soft voice. If I use all caps it's for emphasis because italics are
> not available. Please don't take it as yelling.
Hi Theda,
I understand about the caps, that's the only option available to
highlight something, I used it that way too.
> I'll try to take this in small bites.
>
> The Jewish Calendar will begin the moon count at the new moon nearest the vernal equinox. ...
Oh, this isn't going to work, because we're talking about two
different calendars. There are two different Jewish calendars in use
today, and I'm defending one, and you're finding fault with the other.
I agree with you about the one most people know and use, I also find
fault with it. What I want to discuss is the one only used by a small
minority of people. I'm defending the scriptural, Sacred Calendar, the
one a minority of Jews held fast to when the Rabbis decided to make
all their changes. The modified, rabbinical calendar is the one called
the calculated calendar, and I am not defending that one at all. When
I said the calculated calendar starts the new year with the new moon
NEAREST to the equinox, yes, that's what they do, but I didn't mean I
agree with doing that. I don't accept the calculated calendar, not
because it's calculated, but because of it's man-made changes and
modifications that have been incorporated into it.
If you want to see how the two different Jewish calendars are
different, compare the two for any given year. Sometimes they're more
in disagreement than others, but they will always disagree. (And I
mean two different ones for holy days, I'm not even talking about
their other one for business that starts in the fall). They will
always differ as to the first day of the month, they'll differ by
either one, or two days. And they will sometimes differ as to the
first month of the year, and when that happens their holy days are
very different. One has the postponements for the purpose of avoiding
having two sabbaths falling back to back, and the other doesn't, so
there isn't much of anything about them that agrees, except the weekly
sabbath, and I think that would be it.
>
> Another analogy is the proverbial "cart before the horse". The
> technique you describe (which is the one used for the Jewish Calendar)
> has the "barley pulling the moon". The reality is the other way
> around. By using the "signs" in God's calendar in the sky, the barley
> will be abundantly green, the color of "abib" AFTER the start of the
> new year which is signaled by the Vernal Equinox.
> If we simply accept what God's time keeping apparatus in the sky says
> - there will be no lack of ripe barley. If there is any abib barley
> before the beginning of the new year, and the Jewish Calendar decides
> to call that 13th new moon the FIRST new moon - then it goes against
> the signs of God. The barley does not define the month. God's moon
> does.
I guess I can say I both agree and disagree with you here. I agree
that the moon defines the month, but I disagree when you say the
barley does not define the month. I'm not saying that when the barley
is headed that's the first day of the new year, I'm saying that the
month in which the barley is abib is the first month of the new year.
I just don't get how you can read what God said about abib and
disregard that abib decides the first month of the year. I see God
saying 4 times that Abib is the first month, and you don't - I don't
know what to do with that, I guess that's an impasse:
Exod.13[4] This day came ye out in the month Abib.
Exod.23 [15] Thou shalt keep the feast of unleavened bread: (thou
shalt eat unleavened bread seven days, as I commanded thee, in the
time appointed of the month Abib; for in it thou camest out from
Egypt: and none shall appear before me empty:)
Exod.34 [18] The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days
thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of
the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.
Deut.16 [1] Observe the month of Abib, and keep the passover unto the
LORD thy God: for in the month of Abib the LORD thy God brought thee
forth out of Egypt by night.
I'm stuck on the fact that God said the first month is Abib, and he
said it four times. And the bible tells us what abib means, so we
know.
>
> In the Jewish tradition, the day of the Wave Sheaf Offering is the
> second day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the first day being an
> annual sabbath. They will count "from the morrow after the
> sabbath...from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave
> offering...seven sabbaths shall be complete...Even unto the morrow
> after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days." This technique
> takes them to Sivan 6, which travels through the days of the week on
> the Gregorian calendar. In 2010 Shauvot will be Sunset of May 18
> through nightfall of May 20, which will be sunset Tuesday until
> sunset Thursday. That's the Jewish tradition.
I'm with you, I would not defend this at all, it's part of the changes
made by the Rabbis with their calculated calendar. You shouldn't be
able to set a fixed date for Pentecost, you should need to count it,
that's why God gave specific dates for the other holy days, but not
this one. Also, if Pentecost isn't landing on "the morrow after the
sabbath", then you should know that you've gone wrong, and apparently
some don't realize that. The Sacred Calendar I'm defending does not
follow the tradition of the rabbinical changes on this.
>
> Your observation that "UNTO the morrow after the seventh sabbath"
> describes the first day of the week following the weekly sabbath is
> right on target as I see it. The COG tradition is to count from the
> Sunday within the days of Unleavened bread, seven weeks complete. The
> Jewish tradition is to count to Sivan 6 regardless of the day of the
> week.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the "COG" (see next paragraph);
I'm not inclined to follow the WCG tradition here, because they
accepted the calculated calendar with it's postponements and
modifications. I do agree that most of the time the count to Pentecost
will begin with the Sunday that falls within the Days of Unleavened
Bread. However, sometimes the days fall strangely and they will start
the count from the Sunday BEFORE Passover. I don't agree with that. I
learned the holy days from Herbert Armstrong, and I don't remember him
talking much about the wave sheaf offering, I think this one was
glossed over. When you understand that it corresponds to Jesus
ascending to be accepted by the Father on our behalf after he was
risen from the dead, then you know it can't be the Sunday BEFORE
Passover.
Herbert Armstrong learned about the holy days in the same church that
Clarence Dodd, and A N Dugger learned about them; the Church of God
(Seventh Day). I wonder how Dodd and Dugger understood their meaning,
if it was any different. As far as I know, only Dugger's congregations
on other continents (Church of God 7th Day) continue to observe them
today, the US congregations quit sometime along the way. Dodd went in
a different direction than HWA when the Church of God (Seventh Day)
split around 1932 or whatever year it was; he started the Sacred Name
movement, and he didn't adopt the calculated calendar. Dodd started a
magazine called The Faith, I wonder if that can be found online like
Herbert Armstrong's writings. Dugger wrote for The Bible Advocate.
This is why you will find Assemblies of Yahweh keeping the FOT on
slightly different days than WCG's descendants do, because they don't
accept the calculated and changed calendar. They're part of the Sacred
Name movement.
Oh! so many divisions to overcome - we're all going to have to adjust
on one thing or another in the end to all come into unity and
agreement. That will be both uncomfortable and wonderful! and I can
hardly wait for it!
Pat
mary
 Exd 13:4 |
This day 3117 came ye out 3318 in the month 2320 Abib 24. |
| Exd 23:15 |
Thou shalt keep 8104 the feast 2282 of unleavened bread 4682: (thou shalt eat 398 unleavened bread 4682 seven 7651 days 3117, as I commanded 6680 thee, in the time appointed 4150 of the month 2320 Abib 24; for in it thou camest out 3318 from Egypt 4714: and none shall appear 7200 before 6440 me empty 7387:) |
| Exd 34:18 |
The feast 2282 of unleavened bread 4682 shalt thou keep 8104 . Seven 7651 days 3117 thou shalt eat 398 unleavened bread 4682, as I commanded 6680 thee, in the time 4150 of the month 2320 Abib 24: for in the month 2320 Abib 24 thou camest out 3318 from Egypt 4714. |
| Deu 16:1 |
Observe 8104 the month 2320 of Abib 24, and keep 6213 the passover 6453 unto the LORD 3068 thy God 430: for in the month 2320 of Abib 24 the LORD 3068 thy God 430 brought thee forth 3318 out of Egypt 4714 by night 3915. |
Romans 8:28
From: Pat <pat.sc...@comcast.net>
To: The Ten Commandments Calendar <the-ten-comman...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, December 18, 2009 6:06:04 PM
Subject: Re: What About The Barley?
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Pat
> There is a lot that we don't know about the Israelites when they were slaves in Egypt, but if they had >preserved the knowledge of the appointed times from earlier revelations to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob for >instance, they may have called the first moon (month) after the equinox "ABIB" possibly even previous to >the Exodus, but even if it was after, it is what defined ABIB that is the issue.
Well, God said the first month was Abib because that's the month they
came out of Egypt, so that's what God based his choice on: Deu 16:1
Observe the month of Abib, and keep the passover unto the LORD thy
God: for in the month of Abib the LORD thy God brought thee forth out
of Egypt by night.
The bible tells us exactly what abib means in these verses about one
of the 10 plagues right before the Exodus from Egypt, so this happened
in what God calls the first month of Abib:
Exd 9:25, 31-32: And the hail smote throughout all the land of Egypt
all that [was] in the field, both man and beast; and the hail smote
every herb of the field, and brake every tree of the field. ...Now the
flax and the barley were struck, for the barley [was] in the head and
the flax [was] in bud. But the wheat and the rie were not smitten: for
they [were] not grown up.
"Abib", the Hebrew word # 24 according to Strong's, is here translated
"in the head", and we see it's a stage of development. And we know
that the plagues happened in the first month, because God said so.
The Blue letter bible is good for seeing all the instances of a Hebrew
word, regardless of the English word used for it. Here's a link to the
page showing all the instances of abib, it's used 6 times in the Old
Testament:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H24&t=KJV
>
> If they did call the first new moon after the Equinox it makes equal and perfect sense.
I don't agree, and here's why. Most of the time, maybe always, the
vernal equinox does not happen on the same day as a new moon, so one
has to come before the other. If the new moon of the month of Abib
happens first, and the equinox is a few days later, falling within
that first month of Abib, then they agree, and it makes sense.
If however, you say that the equinox must happen first, and then the
next new moon AFTER that is the first month of the new year, you're
first month will be one month later than doing it the other way.
Hm, can I illustrate this, I'll try. Lets say there is a new moon on
April 1st, the equinox happens on April 6th, the barley is headed in
April, and the next new moon is on May 1st. (I know that's too many
days between new moons, but I want an easy to use illustration.) In
this illustration, if abib decides the first month of the year, then
that new moon on April 1st is the first one of the new year, and abib
and the equinox are in the same month, the first month, they agree.
If, on the other hand, you insist that the equinox has to happen
first, and then the next new moon after the equinox is the first one
of the new year, then in this illustration, May 1st would be the first
month of the new year - one month later. The people deciding by abib
would be one month earlier than the people going by the next new moon
after the equinox. In this case, the people going by abib would be the
ones with the firstfruits being harvested at the right time, to be
able to do the wave sheaf offering in the first month of the year. The
people who say May is the first month would have to hold over the
firstfruits for another month, and they weren't supposed to do that,
they were supposed to do the wave sheaf offering the Sunday after it
was cut. I'm just trying to illustrate what difference it makes if you
insist that the equinox has to happen before the first new moon of the
new year. It makes your new year start one month later that way. In
this illustration, people going by abib would have passover on April
14th, and equinox-first people would have Passover on May 14th. That's
the difference it makes.
Pat
mary
came out of Egypt, so that's what God based his choice on: Deu 16:1
Observe the month of Abib, and keep the passover unto the LORD thy
God: for in the month of Abib the LORD thy God brought thee forth out
of Egypt by night.""
Romans 8:28
From: Pat <pat.sc...@comcast.net>
To: The Ten Commandments Calendar <the-ten-comman...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: What About The Barley?
Theda
Quoting Pat: >>Hm, can I illustrate this, I'll try. Lets say there is
a new moon on
April 1st, the equinox happens on April 6th, the barley is headed in
April, and the next new moon is on May 1st. (I know that's too many
days between new moons, but I want an easy to use illustration.) In
this illustration, if abib decides the first month of the year, then
that new moon on April 1st is the first one of the new year, and abib
and the equinox are in the same month, the first month, they agree.
If, on the other hand, you insist that the equinox has to happen <<
Pat, the equinox will never occur in April. It will be on March 20 in
2010.
The Winter season begins at the winter solstice on December 21 and
endures until the vernal equinox on March 20. The seasons change
according to the sun's circuit in relation to the earth. The solar
year begins at the vernal equinox. That is when plants begin to "green
up".
After almost 500 years as slaves the Tribes of Israel needed help with
the calendar. The Lord told them, "this month" (you know, the month
(moon cycle) when barley ripens) is the beginning of months. This did
not replace or change the Creator's decree (Genesis 1:14) that the
moon and the sun would be for SIGNS, SEASONS, DAYS and YEARS which
you continue to ignore.
The word "month" is derived from the word "moon", "moonth" in the old
English. It describes one complete moon cycle which has never been
defined by barley or any other vegetation.
The barley will invariably be ready for harvest two weeks after the
first new moon of spring.
Theda
After nearly 500 years in slavery the tribes of Israel needed
Pat
On Dec 19, 6:21 pm, Theda <thedahor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Quoting Pat: >>Hm, can I illustrate this, I'll try. Lets say there is
> a new moon on
> April 1st, the equinox happens on April 6th, the barley is headed in
> April, and the next new moon is on May 1st. (I know that's too many
> days between new moons, but I want an easy to use illustration.) In
> this illustration, if abib decides the first month of the year, then
> that new moon on April 1st is the first one of the new year, and abib
> and the equinox are in the same month, the first month, they agree.
> If, on the other hand, you insist that the equinox has to happen <<
>
> Pat, the equinox will never occur in April. It will be on March 20 in
> 2010.
Hi Theda,
I'm very sorry, and I regret that I didn't make myself clear enough,
and that I didn't choose March and April instead of April and May.
That was meant to be an illustration of what difference it makes. The
dates I used were fictitious and only chosen for the purpose of an
illustration of how the two different rules would work. The date I
used for the equinox was not what you were supposed to be focusing on
there, it's the difference in how the two methods work out that I was
talking about.
Pat
Theda
> That was meant to be an illustration of what difference it makes. The
> dates I used were fictitious and only chosen for the purpose of an
> illustration of how the two different rules would work.
You don't think the difference is apparent and obvious? If it didn't
make a difference then there would be no argument and no need for
discussion. If the sun and the moon are deleted from the equation then
the outcome would be as you say. But they are still there performing
the functions ordained by the Creator. How can you ignore them?
Theda
Theda
your means of reckoning is not the same as mine, I still respect your
right to choose. We don't have to agree. Since we are all to "prove
all things and hold fast that which is good", we each have an
obligation to consider the matter and do the best we can according to
our understanding. If you want to go by the barley... it's okay with
me.
Theda