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Theda
Jul 6, 2009, 9:22:31 AM7/6/09
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Are there two groups or just one of 144,000?
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Bernie Monsalvo
Jul 6, 2009, 1:27:25 PM7/6/09
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These are two separate groups of people.
Theda
Jul 6, 2009, 9:54:19 PM7/6/09
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Hi, Bernie,
Thanks for your reply. Only one other has responded, anonymously, who
thinks they are only one group. Thank you, too, Anonymous Responder.
All views are valid here.
So, that makes two out of three (I'm one of the two) who think they
are two separate groups. If we were voting then the majority would
rule, but, this, as I wrote earlier, doesn't depend on what we think
about it. What is, is and what is not, is not. But the Spirit is to
guide us into all truth. Being an opinionated woman, I think there are
two groups; one group from the twelve tribes of Israel, and another
group of spirit beings who follow the Lord wherever He goes.
Would you share your thoughts and tell us why or how you arrived at
the conclusion that these are two separate groups? What are the clues?
Theda
Thanks for your reply. Only one other has responded, anonymously, who
thinks they are only one group. Thank you, too, Anonymous Responder.
All views are valid here.
So, that makes two out of three (I'm one of the two) who think they
are two separate groups. If we were voting then the majority would
rule, but, this, as I wrote earlier, doesn't depend on what we think
about it. What is, is and what is not, is not. But the Spirit is to
guide us into all truth. Being an opinionated woman, I think there are
two groups; one group from the twelve tribes of Israel, and another
group of spirit beings who follow the Lord wherever He goes.
Would you share your thoughts and tell us why or how you arrived at
the conclusion that these are two separate groups? What are the clues?
Theda
Theda
Jul 7, 2009, 2:43:53 AM7/7/09
to The Ten Commandments Calendar
Theda, Anonymous here.
On Revelations, the reason I think they are one group.
In chapter 7 it says hold everything up until we seal the forehands of
the 144,000.
At this time Christ has not returned. He is holding back.
Chapter 14 Christ has returned and is standing on mount Zion with the
144,000 with the seal in their foreheads.
Now I do not know Revelations or eschatology at all. This is just me
reading it as it is written.
Anonymous
On Revelations, the reason I think they are one group.
In chapter 7 it says hold everything up until we seal the forehands of
the 144,000.
At this time Christ has not returned. He is holding back.
Chapter 14 Christ has returned and is standing on mount Zion with the
144,000 with the seal in their foreheads.
Now I do not know Revelations or eschatology at all. This is just me
reading it as it is written.
Anonymous
Theda
Jul 7, 2009, 3:52:26 AM7/7/09
to The Ten Commandments Calendar
At first reading (of the Revelation of Jesus Christ) I agreed with
you, Anonymous Responder. But then I wondered...if the Lord returns as
He said He will for the elects' sake, cutting the time short or else
there would be no flesh saved...why would He want to save them as
flesh beings and then immediately turn them to spirit? Why not just
let the whole world go up in smoke and then resurrect the ones He
wants?
And then, "virgins, not defiled with women"? One person actually stood
up in church and claimed that these were prepubescent boys who had
never had sex...with women!
Someone else said that these 144,000 had never been involved with that
woman of Babylon or her protesting daughters. But even they can
repent.
And since everyone who repents and accepts the sacrifice of the Lamb
of God becomes without sin...why couldn't the 144,000 be male or
female, former sinners who have been redeemed by the Savior and now
"virginal".
And if (as scripture says and I believe it) the dead in Christ rise
first and then "we who remain alive, are changed as in the twinkling
of an eye and rise up to meet Him in the air..." who does that leave
alive on earth? Only the unrepentant sinners... This buys in to the
rapture doctrine.
But the Lord has given us the parable of the "wheat and tares" in
Matthew 13 to rebut, well in advance, the doctrine that the good will
be "raptured away" leaving only the sinners to suffer the plagues of
the Revelation.
These seem like gnarley questions to me. So, what's the answer? Could
it be that there are more pieces to the puzzle than we have so far
seen...pieces that would make everything fall into place? If so, then
we "can't get there from here". We need to know more.
Theda
you, Anonymous Responder. But then I wondered...if the Lord returns as
He said He will for the elects' sake, cutting the time short or else
there would be no flesh saved...why would He want to save them as
flesh beings and then immediately turn them to spirit? Why not just
let the whole world go up in smoke and then resurrect the ones He
wants?
And then, "virgins, not defiled with women"? One person actually stood
up in church and claimed that these were prepubescent boys who had
never had sex...with women!
Someone else said that these 144,000 had never been involved with that
woman of Babylon or her protesting daughters. But even they can
repent.
And since everyone who repents and accepts the sacrifice of the Lamb
of God becomes without sin...why couldn't the 144,000 be male or
female, former sinners who have been redeemed by the Savior and now
"virginal".
And if (as scripture says and I believe it) the dead in Christ rise
first and then "we who remain alive, are changed as in the twinkling
of an eye and rise up to meet Him in the air..." who does that leave
alive on earth? Only the unrepentant sinners... This buys in to the
rapture doctrine.
But the Lord has given us the parable of the "wheat and tares" in
Matthew 13 to rebut, well in advance, the doctrine that the good will
be "raptured away" leaving only the sinners to suffer the plagues of
the Revelation.
These seem like gnarley questions to me. So, what's the answer? Could
it be that there are more pieces to the puzzle than we have so far
seen...pieces that would make everything fall into place? If so, then
we "can't get there from here". We need to know more.
Theda
mary
Jul 7, 2009, 6:53:36 AM7/7/09
to the-ten-comman...@googlegroups.com
Dear Theda,
I agree that there are 2 separate and distinct groups, one clearly identified as the firstfruits in Revelation 14 and the other as those sealed of those of the tribes of Israel that are listed in Revelation 7. Revelation is written in symbols though it is a book that reveals, what it reveals is of a world that is spirit and not necessarily conforming to the experience of mortal man. Before going any further, my question is, what is the end or point of this topic? Is there a particular reason for discussing this, an application for a principle revealed?
~~mary
Romans 8:28
Romans 8:28
From: Theda <theda...@gmail.com>
To: The Ten Commandments Calendar <the-ten-comman...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2009 2:52:26 AM
Subject: Re: Discussion on puzzles
Theda
Jul 7, 2009, 12:31:33 PM7/7/09
to The Ten Commandments Calendar
The point of this discussion is that there is a puzzle about the
144,000 that intrigues me.
Is there a reason this should not be discussed?
How do you know that the 144,000 of the Tribes of Israel are not
"firstfruits"? Are they not "changed as in the twinkling of an eye"
at
the Lord's return, and become spirit?
Can you define "firstfruits"?
If there are two separate groups where did the "firstfruits" group
come from? Are they the "dead in Christ" that rise first?
On Jul 7, 5:53 am, mary <mary7b...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dear Theda,
> I agree that there are 2 separate and distinct groups, one clearly identified as the firstfruits in Revelation 14 and the other as those sealed of those of the tribes of Israel that are listed in Revelation 7. Revelation is written in symbols though it is a book that reveals, what it reveals is of a world that is spirit and not necessarily conforming to the experience of mortal man. Before going any further, my question is, what is the end or point of this topic? Is there a particular reason for discussing this, an application for a principle revealed?
>
> ~~mary
> Romans 8:28
>
> ________________________________
mary
Jul 7, 2009, 3:15:05 PM7/7/09
to the-ten-comman...@googlegroups.com
Okay, thank you.
You asked:
"Is there a reason this should not be discussed"
My response:
No, but, if it is just a discussion for the point of solving a puzzle, much like a crossword puzzle or Sudoku then it doesn't present the same interest to me. Is there a peripheral topic connected to this puzzle?
You ask: "How do you know that the 144,000 of the Tribes of Israel are not
"firstfruits"?"
"firstfruits"?"
My response:
The phrase "from among men" implies no particular tribe or nation.
You ask "can I define firstfruits."
My response:
Yes.
You ask: "are they not changed as the twinkling of an eye."
My response:
Yes.
You ask: "If there are two separate groups where did the "firstfruits" group
come from?"
come from?"
My response:
The earth.
You ask: "Are they the "dead in Christ" that rise first?"
My response:
Yes.
~~mary
Romans 8:28
Romans 8:28
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2009 11:31:33 AM
Theda
Jul 10, 2009, 4:17:44 PM7/10/09
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Enoch and the Watchers
Theda
Jul 16, 2009, 9:48:38 AM7/16/09
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Here's another source for information about the Watchers. There are
quotes from the Book of Jubilees, Pliny, and Flavius Josephus as well
as the Enoch literature.
They seem to concur that the Watchers were stationed among men and
some of them revolted, "defiled themselves with women", and were the
cause of the world condition that caused God to destroy the world with
a flood.
http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/delirium/articleview.asp?Post=186
My question now is: If we are indeed in the "last days" before the
Lord returns, and the world's condition is as in the days of Noah, are
the evil Watchers still stirring up trouble? Are they the source of
crop circles, UFO's, etc.?
> Click onhttp://groups.google.com/group/the-ten-commandments-calendar/web/puzzles
quotes from the Book of Jubilees, Pliny, and Flavius Josephus as well
as the Enoch literature.
They seem to concur that the Watchers were stationed among men and
some of them revolted, "defiled themselves with women", and were the
cause of the world condition that caused God to destroy the world with
a flood.
http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/delirium/articleview.asp?Post=186
My question now is: If we are indeed in the "last days" before the
Lord returns, and the world's condition is as in the days of Noah, are
the evil Watchers still stirring up trouble? Are they the source of
crop circles, UFO's, etc.?
> Click onhttp://groups.google.com/group/the-ten-commandments-calendar/web/puzzles
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