some notes on WATCHERS

[frankolive]

Watchers in the Old Testament

"When men began to increase on earth and daughters were born to them,
the divine beings saw how beautiful the daughters of men were and took
wives from among those that pleased them. The LORD said, 'My breath
shall not abide in man forever, since he too is flesh; let the days
allowed him be one hundred and twenty years.' It was then, and later
too, that the Nephilim appeared on earth - when the divine beings
cohabited with the daughters of men, who bore them offspring. They
were the heroes of old, the men of renown." - Genesis 6:1-4

This is the only account of the watchers in the Bible. Isaiah 14:12-15
talks of the fall of the "day-star, son of morning," which implies
that there was a revolt, and the "day-star" was cast into the abyss.
One other possible reference is Psalm 82.

God standeth in the Congregation of God (El)
In the midst of gods (elohim) He judgeth
All the foundations of the earth are moved.
I said: Ye are gods,
And all of you sons of the Most High (Elyon)
Nevertheles ye shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes (sarim)
Psalm 82:1, 5-7

The parts of the Psalm I have left out are the parts that refer to
wicked earthly rulers, but it is agreed upon by many scholars that
this part of the Psalm refers to the fallen angels. While Genesis 6
tells that angels married women, it does not condemn this as a sin.
Psalm 82 tells that the elohim sinned, but does not tell how (i.e. it
does not mention that they married women).



Watchers in Jewish Midrash

This is a passage from Jewish midrash in which Hannah is praying for a
child at Shiloh:

"Lord of the Universe! The celestials never die, and they do not
reproduce their kind. Terrestrial beings die, but they are fruitful
and multiply. Therefore I pray: Either make me immortal, or give me a
son!"



Watchers in 1 Enoch

A different interpretation of this passage concerning the sin of the
angels was that they revolted against God, and because of this, they
were cast down. Apocrypal texts give more complete accounts of the
fall of the angels.

1 Enoch gives an account of the fall of the Angels from heaven.
Chapter 6 talks of how the angels saw and lusted after the daughters
of men.

"In those days, when the children of man had multiplied, it happened
that there were born unto them handsome and beautiful daughters. And
the angels, the children of heaven , saw them and desired them; and
they said to one another, 'Come, let us choose wives for ourselves
from among the daughters of man and beget us children.' And Semyaz,
being their leader, said unto them,'I fear that perhaps you will not
consent that this deed should be done, and I alone will become
(responsible) for this great sin.' But they all responded to him, 'Let
us all swear an oath and bind everyone among us by a curse not to
abandon this suggestion but to do the deed.' Then they all swore
together and bound one another by (the curse) And they were altogether
two hundred;" - 1 Enoch 6:1-7

The angels descended on Mount Hermon during the days of Jared. There
were 19 leaders mentioned in 1 Enoch, who were also called 'the chiefs
of ten.' Once they reached the earth:

"they took wives unto themselves, and everyone (respectively) chose
one woman for himself, and they began to go unto them. And they taught
them magical medicine, incantations, the cutting of roots, and taught
them (about) plants. And the women became pregnant and gave birth to
great giants whose heights were three hundred cubits. These (giants)
consumed the produce of all the people until the people detested
feeding them. So the giants turned against (the people) in order to
eat them." - 1 Enoch 7:1-5

The Angels then taught women charms, enchantments, the cutting of
roots, and the knowledge of plants. They taught men how to make
various weapons and armor, and also arts and sciences. These acts led
to an increase in lawlessness and warfare. The men of earth then cried
out to heaven, and the 4 archangels (Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and
Gabriel) cried out to God. In response, God sent Uriel to warn Noah
that there would soon be a flood that would destroy the wickedness on
earth.

Raphael was commanded to bind Azazel hand and foot, and to cast him
into the a hole in the desert (Duda'el) that the Lord had made.
Raphael threw rugged and sharp rocks and covered Azazel's face so that
he would not see light. Michael was commanded to bound Semyaza and his
associates in the valleys of the earth. They will remain there until
the day of judgment when he will be cast into the fire.

The race of giants produced from this union gave way to a brood of
evil spirits. The evil spirits most likely are the departed spirits of
the giants, themselves. These spirits are not material or corporeal
beings, but they torment mankind because they have proceeded from
them. According to 1 Enoch, these spirits will not be punished until
the day of judgment, in contrast to the Watchers, who are punished
both before and on the day of judgment.

"But now the giants who are born from the (union of) the spirits and
the flesh shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, because their
dwelling shall be upon the earth and inside the earth. Evil spirits
have come out of their bodies. Because from the day that they were
created from the holy ones they became the Watchers; their first
origin is the spiritual foundation. They will become evil upon the
earth and shall be called evil spirits. The dwelling of the spiritual
beings of heaven is heaven; but the dwelling of the spirits of the
earth, which are born upon the earth, is in the earth. The spirits of
the giants oppress each other, they will corrupt, fall, be excited,
and fall upon the earth, and cause sorrow. They eat no food, nor
become thirsty, nor find obstacles. And these spirits shall rise up
against the children of the people and against the women, because they
have proceeded forth (from them). - 1 Enoch 15

Enoch 19 also gives a variation to the origin of demons. It implies
that demons were already in existence during the time of the fall of
the angels. According to 1 Enoch 10-16, the demons are the spirits
which go forth from these angels.

"Here shall stand in many different appearances the spirits of the
angels which have united themselves with women. They have defiled the
people and will lead them into error so that they will offer
sacrifices to the demons as unto gods, until the great day of judgment
in which they shall be judged till they are finished." - 1 Enoch 19:1

1 Enoch 85-90 gives a similar account of the fall of the angels. In
these passages, a star (either Semjaza or Azazel) fell from heaven and
began to pasture among the oxen (mankind). A number of stars then fell
and were transformed into bulls. They began to cover the cows (the
angels married mortal women), who then gave birth to elephants,
camels, and asses (the giants). The oxen then became restless and
began to fight, but they became prey to the wild beasts. The
archangels then appear in the disguise of men. One seizes the first of
the fallen stars and casts it into the abyss. A second gives the
elephants, camels, and asses a sword so that they will slay each
other. A third archangel stones the other fallen stars and casts them
into the gulf. The story then goes on to describe the Maccabean
revolt, which leads to a description of the final struggle between
good and evil.

It seems that there is a threefold aspect to the sin of the Watchers
in these accounts. First, it was a defilement of the essence of the
angels to marry and engage in sexual acts with human women. Second,
these unions between the angels and mortal women were considered evil,
themselves. Because of the Nephilim and and evil created by these
unions, God caused the great Flood of Noah's time. Finally, the angels
sinned because they taught humanity and revealing the secrets of the
natural universe which God did not intend for man to know.


Watchers in The Book of Jubilees

The Book of Jubilees gives another account of how the Watchers fell
that is similar to 1 Enoch. It explains that the Watchers originally
descended to the earth to teach mankind and do what is just, but they
'sinned with the daughters of men because these had begun to mix with
earthly women so that they became defiled.' (Jubilees 4:22)

Malalael "named [his son] Jared because during his lifetime the angels
of the Lord who were called Watchers descended to earth to teach
mankind and to do what is just and upright upon the earth" - Jubilees
4:15

Jubilees also says that they were sent by God, Himself.

"Against his angels whom he had sent to the earth he was angry enough
to uproot them from all their (positions of) authority" - Jubilees 5:6

Jubilees tells an account of the fall of the angels similar to that of
1 Enoch. God was displeased with the angels because of their lust for
the daughters of men. The union of the angels and women is said to be
the Nephilim.

"For it was on account of these three things [fornication,
uncleanness, and injustice - see Jubilees 7:20] that the flood was on
the earth, since (it was) due to fornication that the Watchers had
illicit intercourse - apart from the mandate of their authority - with
women. When they married of them whomever they chose they committed
the first (acts) of uncleanness. They fathered (as their) sons the
Nephilim. - Jubilees 7:21-22

In Jubilees, Mastema is the chief of the spirits. As God commanded the
angels to bind all the evil spirits, Mastema came and asked the Lord
that some of the spirits might be allowed to remain with him to do his
will. God granted his request and allowed one tenth of the spirits to
remain with Mastema, while the other nine parts would be condemned.

"When Mastema, the leader of the spirits, came, he said: 'Lord
creator, leave some of them before me; let them listen to me and do
everything that I tell them, because if none of them is left for me I
shall not be able to exercise the authority of my will aong mankind.
For they are meant for (the purposes of) destroying and misleading
before my punishment because the evil of mankind is great.' Then he
said that a tenth of them should be left before him, while he would
make nine parts descend to the place of judgment." - Jubilees 10:8-9

Watchers in 2 Enoch

2 Enoch also mentions a group of angels called the Grigori, who are
similar to the Watchers. Their prince is called Satanail. A difference
in this account as compared with the two previous accounts is that
only 3 angels came down to earth to take wives and beget giants.

"These are the Grigori, who with their prince Satanail rejected the
Lord of light, and after them are those who are held in great darkness
on the second heaven, and three of them went down on earth to the
place Ermon, and broke through their vows on the shoulder of the hill
Ermon and saw the daughters of men how good they are, and took to
themselves wives, and befouled the earth with their deeds, who in all
times of their age made lawlessness and mixing, and giants are born
and marvellous big men and great enmity. And therefore God judged them
with great judgment, and they weep for their brethren and they will be
punished on the Lord's great day." - 2 Enoch 18:3-4


Watchers in Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs

In the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, the fall of the angels is
mentioned twice. One is only a brief reference stating that the
Watchers "changed the order of their nature." (Naphtali 3:5) The
second is in Reuben, where he accuses womankind of seeking to ensnare
men.

"Thus they allured the Watchers before the Flood, for as these
continually beheld them, they lusted after them and conceived the act
in their mind; for they changed themselves unto the shape of men and
appeared to them when they were with their husbands; and the women,
lusting in their minds after their forms, gave birth to giants, for
the Watchers appeared to them as reaching up to heaven." (Reuben 5)

In this account, the writer denies that there was a physical union
between the angels and mortal women. He says that the real fathers of
the giants were humans, but the giants were conceived from the mutal
passion from angels and women.

Flavius Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews

Flavius Josephus,a Palestinian, wrote his Antiquities of the Jews to
educate the Roman-Hellenistic world about Judaism and the Jews. In it,
he recounts the tale of the Watchers as follows:

For many angels of God accompanied with women, and begat sons that
proved unjust, and despisers of all that was good, on account of the
confidence they had in their own strength; for the tradition is, that
these men did what resembled the acts of those whom the Grecians call
giants. But Noah was very uneasy at what they did; and being
displeased at their conduct, persuaded them to change their
dispositions and their acts for the better: but seeing they did not
yield to him, but were slaves to their wicked pleasures, he was afraid
they would kill him, together with his wife and children, and those
they had married; so he departed out of that land. - 1.72-75

According to Josephus, the union between the fallen angels and human
women produced a race of giants, which in antiquity were called
Nephilim.

Philo's Commentary on Genesis 6

Philo of Alexandria (20 B.C.E.-50 C.E.) wrote a commentary of Genesis
6 called Concerning the Giants. In it, he emphasized that the passage
was not a myth.

"And when the angels of God saw the daughters of men that they were
beautiful, they took unto themselves wives of all of them whom they
Chose."{#ge 6:2.} Those beings, whom other philosophers call demons,
Moses usually calls angels; and they are souls hovering in the air.
And let no one suppose, that what is here stated is a fable, for it is
necessarily true that the universe must be filled with living things
in all its parts, since every one of its primary and elementary
portions contains its appropriate animals and such as are consistent
with its nature; --the earth containing terrestrial animals, the sea
and the rivers containing aquatic animals, and the fire such as are
born in the fire (but it is said, that such as these last are found
chiefly in Macedonia), and the heaven containing the stars: for these
also are entire souls pervading the universe, being unadulterated and
divine, inasmuch as they move in a circle, which is the kind of motion
most akin to the mind, for every one of them is the parent mind. It is
therefore necessary that the air also should be full of living beings.
And these beings are invisible to us, inasmuch as the air itself is
not visible to mortal sight. (But it does not follow, because our
sight is incapable of perceiving the forms of souls, that for that
reason there are no souls in the air; but it follows of necessity that
they must be comprehended by the mind, in order that like may be
contemplated by like.
- Philo, On the Giants II: 6-9

Names and Misdeeds of the Watchers

Names and Misdeeds of the Fallen Angels (aka the Five Satans) in 1
Enoch 69:4-12. (1 Enoch gives other lists of the names of the fallen
angels as well.) This passage is odd because it mentions angels that
are not mentioned elsewhere.

A. Yeqon - "one who misled all the children of the angels, brought
them down upon the earth, and perverted them by the daughters of the
people"

B. Asb'el - "one who gave the children of the holy angels an evil
counsel and misled them so that they would defile their bodies by the
daughters of the people"

C. Gader'el - "he who showed the children of the people all the blows
of death, who misled Eve, who showed the children of the people (how
to make) the instruments of death (such as) the shield, the
breastplate, and the sword for warfare, and all (the other)
instruments of death to the children of the people"

D. Pinem'e - "demonstrated to the children of the people the bitter
and the sweet and revealed to them all the secrets of their wisdom.
Furthermore he caused the people to penetrate (the secret of) writing
and (the use of) ink and paper"

E. Kasadya - "he who revealed to the children of the people (the
various) flagellations of all evil - (the flagellation) of the souls
and the demons, the smashing of the embryo in the womb so that it may
be crushed, the flagellation of the soul, snake bites, sunstrokes, the
son of the serpent, whose name is Taba'ta"

Names of other fallen angels - Semyaz, Aristaqis, Armen, Kokba'el,
Tur'el, Rumyal, Danyul, Neqa'el, Baraqel, Azaz'el, Armaros, Betryal,
Basas'el, Hanan'el, Tur'el, Sipwese'el, Yeter'el, Tuma'el, Tur'el,
Rum'el, and Azaz'el - 1 Enoch 69:2

The Sumerian Watchers

"...Man and his early civilizations had a profoundly different
mentality from our own, that in fact men and women were not conscious
as are we, were not responsible for their actions, and therefore
cannot be given the credit or blame for anything that was done over
these vast millennia of time; that instead each person had a part of
his nervous system that was divine, by which he was ordered about like
any slave, a voice or voices which indeed were what we call volition
and empowered what they commanded and were related to the hallucinated
voices of others in a carefully established hierarchy."


"...The astonishing consistency from Egypt to Peru, from Ur to
Yucatan, wherever civilizations arose, of death practices and
idolatry, of divine government and hallucinated voices, all are
witness to the idea of a different mentality than our own."


"The gods were in no sense 'figments of the imagination' of anyone.
They were man's volition. They occupied his nervous system, probably
his right hemisphere, and from stores of admonitory and receptive
experience, transmuted this experience into articulated speech which
then 'told' the man what to do."

"Throughout Mesopotamia, from the earliest times of Sumer and Akkad,
all lands were owned by gods and men were their slaves. Of this, the
cuneiform texts leave no doubt whatever. Each city-state had its own
principal god, and the king was described in the very earliest written
documents that we have as 'the tenant farmer of the god'."

- Julian Jaynes, The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the
Bicameral Mind



"... The Akkadians called their predecessors Shumerians, and spoke of
the Land of Shumer.


"It was, in fact, the biblical Land of Shin'ar. It was the land whose
name - Shumer - literally meant the Land of the Watchers. It was
indeed the Egyptian Ta Neter - Land of the Watchers, the land from
which the gods had come to Egypt."

- Zecharia Sitchin, The Stairway to Heaven



"It was from that planet [Nibiru], the Sumerian texts repeatedly and
persistently stated, that the Anunnaki came to Earth. The term
literally means 'Those Who from Heaven to Earth Came.' They are spoken
of in the Bible as the Anakim, and in Chapter 6 of Genesis are also
call Nefilim, which in Hebrew means the same thing: Those Who Have
Come Down, from the Heavens to Earth."

- Zecharia Sitchin, Genesis Revisited



"The Anakim may have been Mycenaean Greek colonists, belonging to the
'Sea Peoples' confederation which caused Egypt such trouble in the
fourteenth century B.C. Greek mythographers told of a Giant Anax
('king'), son of Heaven and Mother Earth, who ruled Anactoria
(Miletus) in Asia Minor. According to Appollodorus, the disinterred
skeleton of Asterius ('starry'), Anax's successor, measured ten
cubits. Akakes, the plural of Nanx, was an epithet of the Greek gods
in general. Talmudic commentators characteristically make the Anakim
three thousand cubits tall."

- Robert Graves and Raphael Patai, Hebrew Myths: The Book of Genesis



The Egyptian Ntr

There is archaeological evidence of a strong cultural connection
between Sumer and ancient Egypt.

"Ptah and the other gods were called, in Egyptian, Ntr - 'Guardian,
Watcher'."


- Zecharia Sitchin, The Wars of Gods and Men



During the fabled "First Time, Zep Tepi, when the gods ruled in their
country: they said it was a golden age during which the waters of the
abyss receded, the primordial darkness was banished, and humanity,
emerging into the light, was offered the gifts of civilization. They
spoke also of intermediaries between gods and men - the Urshu, a
category of lesser divinities whose title meant 'the Watchers'. And
they preserved particularly vivid recollections of the gods
themselves, puissant and beautiful beings called the Neteru who lived
on earth with humankind and exercised their sovereignty from
Heliopolis and other sanctuaries up and down the Nile. Some of these
Neteru were male and some female but all possessed a range of
supernatural powers which included the ability to appear, at will, as
men or women, or as animals, birds, reptiles, trees or plants.
Paradoxically, their words and deeds seem to have reflected human
passions and preoccupations. Likewise, although they were portrayed as
stronger and more intelligent than humans, it was believed that they
could grow sick - or even die, or be killed - under certain
circumstance."

- Graham Hancock, Fingerprints of the Gods



"'Deliver thou the scribe Nebseni, whose word is truth, from the
Watchers, who carry murderous knives, who possess cruel fingers, and
who would slay those who are in the following of Osiris.'


May these Watchers never gain the mastery over me, and may I never
fall under their knives!'

"Who are these Watchers?

"'They are Anubis and Horus, [the latter being] in the form of Horus
the sightless. Others, however, say that they are the Tchatcha
(sovereign princes of Osiris), who bring to nought the operations of
their knives; and others say that they are the chiefs of the Sheniu
chamber.


'May their knives never gain the mastery over me. May I never fall
under the knives wherewith they inflict cruel tortures. For I know
their names, and I know the being, Matchet, who is among them in the
House of Osiris. He shooteth forth rays of light from his eye, being
himself invisible, and he goeth round about heaven robed in the flames
which come from his mouth, commanding Hapi, but remaining invisible
himself. May I be strong on earth before Ra, may I arrive safely in
the presence of Osiris. O ye who preside over your altars, let not
your offerings to me be wanting, for I am one of those who follow
after Nebertcher, according to the writings of Khepera. Let me fly
like a hawk, let me cackle like a goose, let me lay always like the
serpent-goddess Neheb-ka.'"

- The Egyptian Book of the Dead



"They had come to Egypt, the Egyptians wrote, from Ta-Ur, the 'Far/
Foreign Land,' whose name Ur meant 'oldest' but could have also been
the actual place name - a place will known from Mesopotamian and
biblical records: the ancient city of Ur in southern Mesopotamia. And
the straits of the Red Sea, which connected Mesopotamia and Egypt,
were called Ta-Neter, the 'Place of the Gods,' the passage by which
they had come to Egypt. That the earliest gods did come from the
biblical lands of Shem is additionally borne out by the puzzling fact
that the names of these olden gods were of 'Semitic' (Akkadian)
derivation. Thus Ptah, which had no meaning in Egyptian, meant 'he who
fashioned things by carving and opening up' in the Semitic tongues."

- Zecharia Sitchin, The Wars of Gods and Men



"The Legend of Votan, who had built the first city that was the cradle
of Mesoamerican civilization, was written down by Spanish chroniclers
from oral Mayan traditions. The emblem of Votan, they recorded, was
the serpent; 'he was a descendant of the Guardians, of the race of
Can'. 'Guardians' was the meaning of the Egyptian term Neteru (i.e.,
'gods'). Can, studies such as that by Zelia Nuttal (Papers of the
Peabody Museum) have suggested was a variant of Canaan who was
(according to the Bible) a member of the Hamitic peoples of Africa and
a brother-nation of the Egyptians."

- Zecharia Sitchin, When Time Began



Bene Elohim



Note that plural gods elohim' appears in the earliest Hebrew texts,
even though it is translated as God (El) in modern texts.

"...The sons of gods (bene ha-elohim') saw the daughters of men that
they were fair..."

- Genesis 6:2a



"The sons of God (or children of God; 'bene elohim' and variants) are
divine members of God's heavenly host...The title 'sons/children of
God' is familiar from Ugaritic mythology, in which the gods
collectively are the 'children of El'...The sons/children of God are
also found in Phoenician and Ammonite inscriptions, referring to the
pantheon of sub-ordinate deities, indicating that the term was
widespread in the West Semitic religions."

- Oxford Companion to the Bible



"The Watchers were "a specific race of divine beings known in Hebrew
as nun resh 'ayin, 'irin' (resh 'ayin, 'ir' in singular), meaning
'those who watch' or 'those who are awake', which is translated into
Greek as Egrhgoroi egregoris or grigori, meaning 'watchers'. These
Watchers feature in the main within the pages of pseudepigraphal and
apocryphal works of Jewish origin, such as the Book of Enoch and the
Book of Jubilees. Their progeny, according to Hebrew tradition, are
named as nephilim, a Hebrew word meaning 'those who have fallen' or
'the fallen ones', translated into Greek as gigantez, gigantes, or
'giants' - a monstrous race featured in the Theogony of the hellenic
writer Hesiod (c. 907 BC)."

- Andrew Collins, From the Ashes of Angels - The Forbidden Legacy of a
Fallen Race (1996) p. 3



"The statement (Gen. 6:1) that the 'sons of God' married the daughters
of men is explained of the fall of the angels, in Enoch, vi-xi, and
codices, D, E F, and A of the Septuagint read frequently, for 'sons of
God', oi aggeloi tou qeou ['angels of God']. Unfortunately, codices B
and C are defective in Ge., vi, but it is probably that they, too,
read oi aggeloi in this passage, for they constantly so render the
expression 'sons of God'; cf. Job i, 6; ii, 1; xxxviii, 7; but on the
other hand, see Ps. ii, 1; lxxxviii, & (Septuagint). Philo, in
commenting on the passage in his treatise 'Quod Deus sit immutabilis',
i, follows the Septuagint."

- Hugh Pope, The Catholic Encyclopedia



"Angels came late into Jewish theology, generally from the non-Jewish
myths of the East. The early books of the Bible speak of some vague
heavenly beings called malochim (singular, malach). Although malach is
usually translated angel, its literal meaning is messenger."

- Harry Gersh, The Sacred Books of the Jews



"The angel of the LORD found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was
the spring that is beside the road to Shur."

- Genesis 16:7



"At first the angels are regarded in quite an impersonal way (Gen.
xvi, 7).They are God's vice-regents and are often identified with the
Author of their message (Gen. xlviii, 15-16). But while we read of
'the Angels of God' meeting Jacob (Gen. xxxii, 1) we at other times
read of one who is termed 'the Angel of God' par excellence, e.g.
Gen., xxxi, 11."

- Hugh Pope, The Catholic Encyclopedia



"But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, 'Abraham!
Abraham!'"

- Genesis 22:11



"It is true that, owing to the Hebrew idiom, this may mean no more
than 'an angel of God', and the Septuagint renders it with or without
the article at will; yet the three visitors at Mambre seem to have
been of different ranks, though St. Paul (Heb. xiii, 2) regarded them
all as equally angels; as the story in Ge. xiii, develops, the speaker
is always 'the Lord'. Thus in the account of the Angel of the Lord who
visited Gideon (Judges vi), the visitor is alternately spoken of as
'the Angel of the Lord' and as 'the Lord'. Similarly, in Judges xiii,
the Angel of the Lord appears...."

- Hugh Pope, The Catholic Encyclopedia



"Then Manoah took a young goat, together with the grain offering, and
sacrificed it on a rock to the LORD. And the LORD did an amazing thing
while Manoah and his wife watched: As the flame blazed up from the
altar toward heaven, the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame.
Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground.
When the angel of the LORD did not show himself again to Manoah and
his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the LORD.
'We are doomed to die!' he said to his wife. 'We have seen God!'"

- Judges 13:19-22



"This want of clearness is particularly apparent in the various
accounts of the Angel of Exodus. In Judges vi, just now referred to,
the Septuagint is very careful to render the Hebrew 'Lord' by 'the
Angel of the Lord'; but in the story of the Exodus it is the Lord who
goes before them in the pillar of a cloud (Exod. xiii 21), and the
Septuagint makes no change (cf. also Num. xiv, 14, and Neh. ix, 7-20."

- Hugh Pope, The Catholic Encyclopedia



"By day the LORD went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them
on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so
that they could travel by day or night."

- Exodus 13:21



"Yet in Exod. xiv, 19, their guide is termed 'the Angel of God. When
we turn to Exod., xxxiii, where God is angry with His people for
worshipping the golden calf, it is hard not to feel that it is God
Himself who has hitherto been their guide, but who now refuses to
accompany them any longer. God offers an angel instead, but at Moses's
petition He says (14) 'My face shall go before thee', which the
Septuagint reads by autoV though the following verse shows that this
rendering is clearly impossible, for Moses objects: 'If Thou Thyself
dost not go before us, bring us not out of this place.' But what does
God mean by 'my face'? Is it possible that some angel of specially
high rank is intended, as in Is. lxiii, 9 (cf. Tobias xii, 15)? May
not this be what is meant by 'the Angel of God' (cf. Num. xx, 16)?"

- Hugh Pope, The Catholic Encyclopedia



"He [the Lord] said, 'Surely they are my people, sons who will not be
false to me'; and so he became their Savior. In all their distress he
too was distressed, and the angel of his presence saved them. In his
love and mercy he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried them
all the days of old. Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So
he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them."

- Isaiah 63:9-10



"The Massoretic text as well as the Vulgate of Exod. iii and xix-xx
clearly represent the Supreme Being as appearing to Moses in the bush
and on Mount Sinai; but the Septuagint version, while agreeing that it
was God Himself who gave the Law, yet makes it 'the angel of the Lord'
who appeared in the bush."

- Hugh Pope, The Catholic Encyclopedia




"There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from
within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not
burn up. Moses thought, 'I will go over and see this strange sight--
why the bush does not burn up.'


When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him
from within the bush, 'Moses! Moses!'"

- Exodus 3:2-4a



"By New Testament times the Septuagint view has prevailed, and it is
now not merely in the bush that the angel of the Lord, and not God
Himself appears, but the angel is also the Giver of the Law (cf. Gal.
iii, 19; Heb. ii, 2; Acts vii, 30)."

- Hugh Pope, The Catholic Encyclopedia



"The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator"

- Galatians 3:19c



"The person of 'the angel of the Lord' finds a counterpart in the
personification of Wisdom in the Sapiential books and in at least one
passage (Zach. iii, 1) it seems to stand for that 'Son of Man' whom
Daniel (vii, 13) saw brought before 'the Ancient of Days'. Zacharias
says: 'And the Lord showed me Jesus the high priest standing before
the angel of the Lord, and Satan stood on His right hand to be His
adversary'."

- Hugh Pope, The Catholic Encyclopedia



Unlike the "messengers" who could be mistaken for humans in the Book
of Genesis, Daniel's angel was resplendent in its divinity.

"I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a
belt of the finest gold around his waist.waist. His body was like
chrysolite, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches,
his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice
like the sound of a multitude. I, Daniel, was the only one who saw the
vision; the men with me did not see it, but such terror overwhelmed
them that they fled and hid themselves."

- Daniel 10:5-7



"Later Biblical books developed the idea of malochim [messengers], but
it wasn't until the Book of Daniel, written in the second century BC,
that some of these heavenly creatures were given names. Daniel
mentions Gabriel (geber is man, El is God) and Michael. The later non-
canonical books built a whole hierarchy of angels, headed by Metatron,
prince of the heavenly hosts."

- Harry Gersh, The Sacred Books of the Jews



"In the Hebrew writings, the term 'Heavenly Hosts' includes not only
the counselors and emissaries of Jehovah, but also the celestial
luminaries; and the stars, imagined in the East to be animated
intelligences, presiding over human weal and woe, are identified with
the more distinctly impersonated messengers or angels, who execute the
Divine decrees, and whose predominance in heaven is in mysterious
correspondence and relation with the powers and dominions of the
earth. In Job, the Morning Stars and the Sons of God are identified;
they join in the same chorus of praise to the Almighty; they are both
susceptible of joy; they walk in brightness, and are liable to
impurity and imperfection in the sight of God."

- General Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma



"He [king Josiah] did away with the pagan priests appointed by the
kings of Judah to burn incense on the high places of the towns of
Judah and on those around Jerusalem--those who burned incense to Baal,
to the sun and moon, to the constellations [Mazzaloth] and to all the
starry hosts."

- 2 Kings 23:5



"Can you bring forth the constellations [Mazzaloth] in their seasons
[a reference to the twelve signs of the Zodiac] or lead out the Bear
[Arcturus] with its cubs?"

- Job 38:32

Arcturus is Ursa Major and the three stars in its tail are the cubs.



The Apocryphal Tradition



Ca. 150 B.C.E., the author of 1 Enoch wrote of his spell-binding
journey to heaven where he saw angels and their glory.

"And these are the names of the holy angels who watch. Uriel, one of
the holy angels, who is over the world and over Tartarus. Raphael, one
of the holy angels, who is over the spirits of men. Raguel, one of the
holy angels who takes vengeance on the world of the luminaries.
Michael, one of the holy angels, to wit, he that is set over the best
part of mankind and over chaos. Saraqael, one of the holy angels, who
is set over the spirits, who sin in the spirit. Gabriel, one of the
holy angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the Cherubim.
Remiel, one of the holy angels, whom God set over those who rise."

- 1 Enoch 20:1-8



Essene proselytes swore to "preserve the books belonging to their
sect, and the names of the angels." (Flavius Josephus, Wars of the
Jews, Bk 2, Ch 8, Sn 7). The First Book of Enoch was the first piece
of Jewish literature to describe a class of angels, the Watchers, who
are positively evil and who lead the dead to a place of eternal
torment.

"And all the angels shall execute their commandst
And shall seek to hide themselves from the presence of the Great
Glory,
And the children of earth shall tremble and quake;
And ye sinners shall be cursed for ever,
And ye shall have no peace."

- 1 Enoch 102:3



The Book of Jubilees "was also known in early times as the Apocalypse
of Moses, for it allegedly was written down by Moses at Mount Sinai as
an angel dictated to him the histories of days past. (Scholars,
though, believe that the work was composed in the second century BC)."

- Zecharia Sitchin, The Stairway to Heaven



"For in his days the angels of the Lord descended upon earth - those
who are named The Watchers - that they should instruct the children of
men, that they should do judgment and uprightness upon earth."

- The Book of Jubilees



"According to the Book of Jubilees, the Watchers are the sons of god
(Genesis 6) sent from heaven to instruct the children of men; they
fell after they descended to earth and cohabited with the daughters of
men - for which act they were condemned (so legend reports) and became
fallen angels. But not all Watchers descended: those that remained are
the holy Watchers, and they reside in the 5th Heaven. The evil
Watchers dwell either in the 3rd Heaven or in Hell."

- A Dictionary of Angels



"Several fragments with a clear Qumranic cast (4Q286-287, 4Q385-389,
4Q390...) parallel Belial with the angels of MA&+EMOWT ('enmity'),
while Jubilees introduces Mastema/Satan into its story of the spirits
of the giants, the offspring of the fallen Watchers (Jubilees 10:8,11;
see also 11:5,11; 17:16; 18:9,12; 19:28; 48:2,9,12,15). Note that
according to Jubilees, the angels of MA&+EMOWT would be the spirits of
the giants, the offspring of the angel marriages, one tenth of whom
become the servants of Mastema in leading astray and punishing
humanity, while 4Q390 makes them the ones responsible for inspiring
the sons of Aaron to pollute the Temple through illegitimate marriages
and violence."

- David W. Suter, Ioudaios Review, Vol. 3.019, July 1993



"According to the Book of Jubilees, Enoch...testified about the
Watchers who had sinned with the daughters of men; he testified
against them all." And it was to protect him from the revenge of the
sinning angels of the Lord, that 'he was taken from amongst the
children of men, and was conducted into the Garden of Eden."

- Zecharia Sitchin, The Stairway to Heaven



"And I Enoch was blessing the Lord of majesty and the King of the
ages, and lo! the Watchers called me -Enoch the scribe- and said to
me: 'Enoch, thou scribe of righteousness, go, declare to the Watchers
of the heaven who have left the high heaven, the holy eternal place,
and have defiled themselves with women, and have done as the children
of earth do, and have taken unto themselves wives: "Ye have wrought
great destruction on the earth: And ye shall have no peace nor
forgiveness of sin: and inasmuch as they delight themselves in their
children, The murder of their beloved ones shall they see, and over
the destruction of their children shall they lament, and shall make
supplication unto eternity, but mercy and peace shall ye not
attain".'"

- 1 Enoch 10:3-8



As recounted in the Dead Sea Scrolls:


"...'In the days of Jared', two hundred Watchers 'descended' on
'Ardis', the summit of Mount Hermon - a mythical location equated with
the triple peak of Jebel esh Sheikh (9,200 feet), placed in the most
northerly region of ancient Palestine. In Old Testament times its
snowy heights had been revered as sacred by various peoples who
inhabited the Holy Land; it was also the probable site of the
Transfiguration of Christ when the disciples witnessed their Lord
'transfigured before them'.

"On this mountain the Watchers swear an oath and bind themselves by
'mutual imprecations', apparently knowing full well the consequences
their actions will have both for themselves and for humanity as a
whole. It is a pact commemorated in the name given to the place of
their 'fall', for in Hebrew the word Hermon, or harem, translates as
'curse'. "

- Andrew Collins, From the Ashes of Angels - The Forbidden Legacy of a
Fallen Race (1996) pp. 23-24



"In time, each of the 200 took an earthly spouse. These unions
produced children of extraordinary size, who quickly devoured the
world's food. To satisfy their enormous appetites, the angel-children
roamed the earth, slaughtering every species of bird, beast, reptile
and fish. Finally, the ravenous creatures turned on one another,
stripping flesh from the bones of their fellows and slaking their
thirst in rivers of blood. As this wave of destruction washed over the
earth, the anguished cries of humankind reached four powerful
archangels - Uriel, Raphael, Gabriel, and Michael - who upon orders
from God enacted a swift retribution. First Uriel descended to earth
to warn Noah of a coming deluge, advising him to prepare an ark to
carry his family and a menagerie of creatures to safety. Raphael then
fell upon the leader of the Watchers, bound him hand and foot, and
thrust him into eternal darkness. Next, Gabriel charged with slaying
the dissenters' offspring, encouraged the monstrous angel-children to
fight one another. Finally, Michael trussed up the remaining Watchers,
forced them to witness the deaths of their progeny, and condemned them
to eternal torment. Only then did the heavens open up and wash away
the last traces of the destruction that the fallen angels had
wrought."

- Cosmic Duality



"Other Watchers stand accused of revealing to mortal kind the
knowledge of more scientific arts, such as the knowledge of the
clouds, or meteorology; the 'signs of the earth', presumably geodesy
and geography; as well as astronomy and the 'signs', or passage, of
the celestial bodies, such as the sun and moon. Shemyaza [the leader
of the Watchers] is accredited with having taught men 'enchantments,
and root-cuttings', a reference to the magical arts...One of their
number, Penemue, taught 'the bitter and the sweet', surely a reference
to the use of herbs and spices in foods, while instructing men on the
use of 'ink and paper', implying that the Watchers introduced the
earliest forms of writing. Far more disturbing is Kisdeja, who is said
to have shown 'the children of men all the wicked smitings of spirits
and demons, and the smitings of the embryo in the womb, that it may
pass away'. In other words, he taught women how to abort their
babies."

- Andrew Collins, From the Ashes of Angels - The Forbidden Legacy of a
Fallen Race (1996) p. 26



"I saw Watchers in my vision, the dream-vision. Two (men) were
fighting over me, saying...and holding a great contest over me. I
asked them, 'Who are you, that you are thus empo[wered over me?' They
answered me, 'We] [have been em]powered and rule over all mankind'.
They said to me, 'Which of us do yo[u choose to rule (you)?' I raised
my eyes and looked.] [One] of them was terri]fying in his appearance,
[like a s]erpent, [his] cl[oa]k many-colored yet very dark...[And I
looked again], and...in his appearance, his visage like a viper, and
[wearing...] [exceedingly, and all his eyes...]"


"[I replied to him,] 'This [Watcher,] so is he?' He answered me, 'This
Wa[tcher...] [and his three names are Belial and Prince of Darkness]
and King of Evil.'"

- "Testament of Amram" (4Q535, Manuscript B)



One by one the angels of heaven are appointed by God to proceed
against the Watchers and their offspring the Nephilim, described as
'the bastards and the reprobates, and the children of fornication'.
Azazel is bound hand and foot, and cast for eternity into the darkness
of a desert referred to as Dudael. Upon him are placed 'rough and
jagged rocks' and here he shall forever remain until the Day of
judgment, when he will be 'cast into the fire' for his sins. For their
part in the corruption of mankind, the Watchers are forced to witness
the slaughter of their own children before being cast into some kind
of heavenly prison, an 'abyss of fire'. Although the Watchers' leader,
Shemyaza, is cast into this abyss alongside his brothers, in other
versions of the story he undergoes a more dramatic punishment. Since
he was tempted by a beautiful mortal maiden named Ishtahar to reveal
the Explicit Name of God in exchange for the offer of carnal pleasure,
he is to be tied and bound before being made to hang for all eternity
between heaven and earth, head down, in the constellation of Orion."

- Andrew Collins, From the Ashes of Angels - The Forbidden Legacy of a
Fallen Race (1996) p. 26



"These spirits were locked away in the earth, but Mastema persuaded
God to keep out one in ten to tempt humanity until the judgement and
to commit all forms of transgression.
"In the Day of Judgement all such spirits will be consigned to eternal
torment and humanity renewed in spirit back to the generations of
Adam:

'And the days will begin to grow many and increase amongst the
children of men till their days draw night to a thousand years ...
And there will be no old man ...For all will be as children and
youths.'

"The Tree of Life, fragrant and wonderful to behold will be returned
to the centre ground, and the New Jerusalem will be built by God -
just as later described in Revelation."

- Chris King, "The Apocalyptic Tradition"



"The corruption still left in the world after the imprisonment of the
Watchers, and the death of their Nephilim offspring, is to be swept
away by a series of global catastrophes, ending in the Great Flood so
familiar within biblical traditions. In a separate account of the
plight of the Nephilim, this mass-destruction is seen in terms of an
all-encompassing conflagration sent by the angels of heaven in the
form of 'fire, naphtha and brimstone'. No one will survive these
cataclysms of fire and water save for the 'seed' of Noah, from whose
line will come the future human race."

- Andrew Collins, From the Ashes of Angels - The Forbidden Legacy of a
Fallen Race (1996) p. 28



"And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh,
shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, and on the earth shall be
their dwelling. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because
they are born from men and from the holy Watchers is their beginning
and primal origin; they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil
spirits shall they be called. [As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven
shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which
were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.] And
the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do
battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they
take no food, but nevertheless hunger and thirst, and cause offenses.
And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and
against the women, because they have proceeded from them."

- 1 Enoch 8-12



"The explanation of this myth, which has been a stumbling block to
theologians, may be the arrival in Palestine of tall, barabarous
Hebrew herdsmen early in the second millenium B.C., and their
exposure, by marriage, to Asianic civilization. 'Sons of El' in this
sense would mean the 'cattle-owning worshipper of the Semite Bull-god
El'; 'Daughters of Adam' would mean 'women of the soil' (adama),
namely, the Goddess- worshipping Canaanite agriculturists, notorious
for their orgies and premarital prostitution. If so, this historical
event has been tangled with the Ugaritic myth how El seduced two
mortal women and fathered divine sons on them, namely Shahar ('Dawn')
and Shalem ('Perfect'). Shahar appears as a winged deity in Psalm
CXXXIX:9, and his son, according to Isaiah XIV:12, was the fallen
angel Helel. Unions between gods and mortals, that is to say between
kings or queens and commoners, occur frequently in Mediterranean and
Middle Eastern myth. Since later Judaism rejected all deities but its
own transcendental God, and since He never married or consorted with
any female whatsoever, Rabbi Shimon ben Yohai in Genesis Rabba felt
obliged to curse all who read 'Sons of God' in the Ugartic sense.
Clearly, such an interperetation was still current in the second
century A.D., and lapsed only when Bene Elohim meant 'God' and Judge,'
the theory being that when a duly appointed magistrate tried a case,
the Spirit of El posessed him: 'I have said, ye are gods.' (Psalm
LXXXII:6)"

- Robert Graves and Raphael Patai, Hebrew Myths: The Book of Genesis



Jewish religious authorities, concerned that the growing worship of
angels would be a threat to the belief in one God, excised works like
those of the Books of Enoch and the Book of Jubilees from canonical
literature. These books are now part of what is known as the Apocrypha
and Pseudepigrapha.


The mysterious "egregors" of later magical tradition are
linguistically derived from the Watchers and indicate the continuation
of an underground stream of knowledge.

[Theda]

Hi, Frank,
That's a great report. Thank you!

The Watchers are mentioned three times by name in the KJV:

Jer 4:16 -
Make ye mention to the nations; behold, publish against Jerusalem,
that watchers come from a far country, and give out their voice
against the cities of Judah.

Daniel 4: 13
I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher
and an holy one came down from heaven

Da 4:17
This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the
word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the
most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he
will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

These three references show them in the company of "an holy one", and
as powerful spirit beings with authority and duties. From this context
it would be difficult to match them with the "sons of God" who
"defiled themselves with women". It's the reverse description, "These
are they which were not defiled with women; for they are
virgins...which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth...redeemed from
among men, firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb", that gave me my
first clue.
Using the "line upon line" technique and "here a little, there a
little", it appears that there was a particular group of angels, the
Watchers, who were stationed on earth, among men, to watch over
creation. Two hundred of them really messed up. Without Enoch's
account of the Watchers, and that repeated phrase, "defiled themselves
with women", I would not have made the connection. Jude's reference to
Enoch was a nudge in the right direction. Enoch's account of the
Watchers lends understanding to Jude's one short chapter, as well as
to those mysterious verses in Genesis 6.

[bill acord]

This hebrew word translated watchers is "qdishin" means holy ones. I suppose we could translate it watchers. Theda I really doubt they are building crop circles.I saw a picture of a man on a machine build in a short time with a lawn mower a beautiful picture on a huge lawn. With the advent of a gps and slick programing they can do some fancy stuff now days. Don't mean to throw cold water here. As always my opinion for what that is worth. May God Bless America      Bill acord (notaxbill) --- On Sat, 7/18/09, Theda <theda...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Gary & Elizabeth Anderson]

Hey, Theda,,,

Bill mentioned the Hebrew word qdishin meaning "holy one"...  It got me to thinking, so I looked at it.  Actually, the word "watcher" in the two scriptures in Daniel that you quoted is an ARAMAIC word... (some of Daniel was written in Aramaic), and there's actually 3 places in Daniel, not just 2.  The third place is Dan. 4:23.  The Aramaic word for watcher is "iyr" which appears to mean:
(Aramaic) from a root corresponding to 5782; a watcher, i.e. an angel (as guardian):--watcher.  In two of those scriptures, it's followed by the word that Bill mentioned, which my software has listed as "06922.  qaddiysh (Aramaic), corresponding to 6918. --holy (One), saint."

The word in Jer. 4:16 is Hebrew and the word is  natsar, which can mean:    a primitive root; to guard, in a good sense (to protect, maintain, obey, etc.) or a bad one (to conceal, etc.):-- besieged, hidden thing, keep(-er, -ing), monument, observe, preserve(-r), subtil, watcher(-man).

This same word, natsar, is found 62 places in the Old Testament Hebrew, and the translators translated it into English in all the forms listed above, and some of them seem to definitely apply to humans, such as the word "natsar" in this scripture:

2Ki 17:9 And the children <ben> of Israel <Yisra'el> did secretly <chapha'> those things <dabar> that were not right against the LORD <Y@hovah> their God <'elohiym>, and they built <banah> them high places <bamah> in all their cities <`iyr>, from the tower <migdal> of the watchmen <natsar> to the fenced <mibtsar> city <`iyr>.

DID the translators of Daniel have "some supernatural beings who are watching things" in mind when they translated the Aramaic word "iyr" as "watchers" in Daniel?  They DID choose this word, but now a days some might translate it "guardian angel", and from the meaning of "iyr", "guardian angel" might be appropriate.

Just a few thoughts.

Gary

[Theda]

Thanks, Gary,
I do get the sense of guardian angels with the Watchers. There's a
scripture I want to cite but can't seem to find it at the moment - so
pardon me if paraphrase badly. I think it is in Jeremiah or Isaiah.
Maybe someone else knows the source or can find it. Something like:
our angels' faces are turned continually toward the throne. When I
stumbled across it some years ago, I thought, "Aha! We do have
guardian angels!"
In Enoch's recounting of his experience with the outlaw Watchers, they
had become fearful of God's wrath and asked Enoch to intervene for
them and ask forgiveness. God's reply to them through Enoch was that
it was not for Enoch to intervene for them but the other way around:
they should be intervening on behalf of mankind. Furthermore, there
would be no forgiveness for what they had done.
God, through Enoch, points out to them that they were already immortal
while mankind had only a limited number of years, therefore He sought
to give mankind every advantage and comfort in life as they reproduced
to keep the lifeline going.
It seems that some of the watchers were jealous and envious of
mankind's perks: spouses and children, and the ability to take
pleasure in them. Jude's once mysterious phrase, "...having men's
persons in admiration because of advantage", seems to be a summation
of their envy.
If you can find the scripture that I can't precisely quote (now,
there's a challenge!) about the angels faces being continually turned
toward the throne, it would be interesting to research the word that
led to the translation "angel" and see if that has the same root as
"watchers".


On Jul 18, 6:27 pm, Gary & Elizabeth Anderson <garyl...@arkwest.com>
wrote:

[Theda]

Here's that elusive scripture:
Matthew 18:10
"Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say
unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my
Father which is in heaven."

[Frank W. Olive]

I have always understood Jesus' words in Mathew 24:37-38 to refer to human
mixed marriages.

"For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking,
marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,"

But, Jesus had not a human father.

If the flood was designed to wipe out the last remnants of an un-godly
union, is this what Christ is telling us will happen again?

If the fallen angels are bound now, will it be from a second war in heaven,
perhaps taking place now that another wave of angels will fall and defile
themselves?

Anyone have an understanding on this?

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[Theda]

This is new territory for me, and possibly for all of us, so I'm just
trying to review a bit and pick out points that might be explanatory
and see what you think.

1. According to Jubilees not all of the rebellious Watchers are bound.

In Jubilees, Mastema is the chief of the spirits. As God commanded the
angels to bind all the evil spirits, Mastema came and asked the Lord
that some of the spirits might be allowed to remain with him to do his
will. God granted his request and allowed one tenth of the spirits to
remain with Mastema, while the other nine parts would be condemned.
"When Mastema, the leader of the spirits, came, he said: 'Lord
creator, leave some of them before me; let them listen to me and do
everything that I tell them, because if none of them is left for me I

shall not be able to exercise the authority of my will among mankind.

For they are meant for (the purposes of) destroying and misleading
before my punishment because the evil of mankind is great.' Then he
said that a tenth of them should be left before him, while he would
make nine parts descend to the place of judgment." - Jubilees 10:8-9

So, one tenth of the 200 rebellious Watchers remain at large "for the
purposes of destroying and misleading..." Twenty is plenty. There are
references elsewhere to God's sending a "lying spirit", an "evil
spirit", "strong delusion". He will also make use of Satan after the
1000 year Sabbath. So, Mastema and 20 Watchers apparently have
deferred punishment while they go about their duty of causing
problems, hopefully just for evil mankind.
2. Jude cites the example of Sodom and Gomorrah "... and the cities
about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and
going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the
vengeance of eternal fire" making a comparison with the "angels which
kept not their first estate".
3. As you said, Jesus did not have a human father. He was engendered
by Spirit with a flesh and blood human woman, a virgin. I think the
question must be, "Can angels do that?" Apparently so. However, there
is one account (Jubilees?) that offers the explanation that the women
were with their husbands physically at the same time they were having
a "meeting of the minds" with the Watchers. Have you ever heard
someone say to a pregnant woman, "Don't look at that. It will mark
your baby"?
Mind over matter? I think it's possible. Jacob made a deal with
Laban, Rachel and Leah's father. He was tending his father-in-law's
flocks and herds. Laban would keep all the increase that were white or
solid color (again I'm paraphrasing from what I can remember without
actually looking it up) and Jacob would keep the ones that were
speckled or "ringstraked". Laban removed all the speckled,
ringstraked, or all brown from the flock and gave them to his sons so
that the cattle Jacob had to work with would not have that genetic
quality. The ones left to Jacob were not speckled, spotted or
"ringstraked" yet their offspring were, because (okay, I'm looking it
up. Genesis 31:37,38) ..."Jacob took him rods of green poplar ...
hazel and chestnut tree; and pilled white strakes in them, and made
the white appear which was in the rods...he set forth the rods which
he had pilled before the flocks in the gutters in the watering troughs
when the flocks came to drink, that they should conceive when they
came to drink...and the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought
forth cattle ringstraked, speckled and spotted."
Furthermore, my childhood friend had a birthmark in the shape of lips
on the top of her head, where her mother had mentally kissed her
throughout the pregnancy. And my personal proof is my mother's
handprint on my backside where she kept slapping herself while she
carried me, mentally spanking me to see if it was really possible to
mark babies in the womb. She didn't think it was possible and wanted
proof positive if it were true. Mother, Jacob, and the Watchers were
on to something.

4. In Revelation 9:1,2,3 - "The fifth angel sounded...and I saw a star
fall from from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of
the bottomless pit...he opened the pit...there arose a smoke...as the
smoke of a great furnace...and there came out of the smoke locusts
upon the earth...given great power..." Locusts from hell!
"Star" has been used in other places as a term for angels. This is
signaled by the fourth trumpet blast, and is the first "woe". The king
over these creatures "... is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose
name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon... in the Greek... Apollyon.
I think there are enough evil spirits on earth that another rebellion
really isn't necessary to fill the ranks of adversaries to mankind.
And the giant offspring who died in the flood had spirits who are on
the loose.

5. Giants. The offspring of the Watchers were giants. Earlier today I
watched a few minutes of an old movie, don't know the title, but with
Billy Crystal and another actor who was more than twice as tall as Mr.
C. His character was from Romania, and possibly the actor was, too.
Somehow the giant DNA survived the flood. There are numerous
references to giants well after the flood. That's another study.
Okay...over!

On Jul 19, 11:34 am, "Frank W. Olive" <frankol...@frankolive.com>
wrote:

[Gary & Elizabeth Anderson]

Well, Frank,,,

 I'd never considered it to be about mixed marriages.  To me, it always appeared to be saying that life was going on just like it always had, and they could care less that Noah was building an ark, and had been preaching to them.  True, it does say they were marrying and giving in marriage, but it also says eating and drinking, all of which are things folks do all the time.  I know some feel God destroyed the world with a flood because of "mixed marriages", BUT I don't know about that.  I can find no place where God showed indignation about Moses marrying the Ethiopian woman (all Ethiopian women I've ever seen pictures of were black), and God DID have something to say about Miriam and Aaron's reaction to Moses having an Ethiopian wife, rather than telling Moses to dump her.

Gary

[mary]

My comments on this thread:

 

We have some information revealed through scripture, all that we need on the topic. God created all spirits and He created mankind and he set boundaries.  The spirits, angels who were thrown down from heaven either because they had a ruler that rebelled against God or because they were confederate in that rebellion were confined to the earth.  Our Heavenly Father in His great wisdom allowed the spirits to remain for mankind to be influenced by and to overcome. 

 

They were collectively such a terrible influence that man's imagination and thoughts were continually evil and actions followed to the point that God regretted making mankind because of the suffering and so He began again with Noah, limited mankind's years from the approimate 900-1,000 years to generally less than a 100 and gave warning to those spirits.  Jesus Christ preached to those imprisoned spirits on earth during the days of Noah, preached so that there was an opportunity for repentence for what other reason is there to preach?

 

We are told that we shall judge the angels/spirits. I believe we shall judge them not by name or role in their worlds, for it is my impression that we are not to ask their names and that scripture indicates our interest in spirit beings as individuals should be very limited to only Jesus Christ and God the Father.  We can be interested in all their behavior, however in the field of judging that behavior:

• do they respect the boundaries Christ set for them? (Jesus Christ cast them out of men, women and children and forbade them to re-enter them so that indicates one boundary is no possessing a person)
• do they influence mankind to commit acts that violate people's conscience?
• are they themselves deceived?

It is my opinion that getting into spirit personalities and so forth is akin to sorcery and I'll have no part of that.  
 

~~mary
Romans 8:28

 

 

---

From: Theda <theda...@gmail.com>

To: The Ten Commandments Calendar <the-ten-comman...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 4:36:52 PM

Subject: Re: some notes on WATCHERS

[Theda]

I think the "mixture" must be something beyond racial, like mixing
species and kind, or as in homosexual marriages that are being
legitimized these days. Jude gives Sodom and Gomorrah as an example.
GTA once asked, "What next? Man with donkey?"
As Mary pointed out, God was unhappy with Miriam's objection to an
Ethiopian wife for Moses. He used leprosy to temporarily make Miriam
"whiter than white".
The account of the giants has them eating human flesh and drinking
blood after they had consumed everything else edible.

On Jul 19, 6:37 pm, Gary & Elizabeth Anderson <garyl...@arkwest.com>
wrote:

[Theda]

As to naming the angels: The Lord identified Abaddon / Apollyon in His
Revelation. Michael and Gabriel are also named in scripture. I see
nothing wrong with knowing their names. We are not to pray to them or
indulge in angel worship. But I think "sorcery" is a bit strong,
totally inaccurate and prejudicial.

There is a marginal reference in my KJV that identifies the
"scapegoat" of the Day of Atonement as Azazel.

From Wikipedia: "Azazel (Hebrew: עזאזל, Azazel, Aramaic: רמשנאל,
[citation needed] Arabic: عزازل Azazil) is an enigmatic name from the
Hebrew scriptures and Apocrypha, where the name is used
interchangeably with Rameel and Gadriel [citation needed]. The word's
first appearance is in Leviticus 16, where a goat is designated "for
Azazel" and outcast in the desert as part of Yom Kippur.
The name of a supernatural being mentioned in connection with the
ritual of the Day of Atonement (Lev. xvi.). After Satan, for whom he
was in some degree a preparation, Azazel enjoys the distinction of
being the most mysterious extrahuman character in Jewish sacred
literature."

In Enoch's account Azazel is one of the fallen Watchers who has been
bound and thrown into the wilderness, buried under rocks so that he
can't see.
The scapegoat or "goat of departure" is symbolic of this treacherous
spirit being. Enoch's message lends understanding to Leviticus 16: 21,
22.
The Holy Spirit is to lead us into all truth. If you are not ready for
it - don't look! If you are saying that those of us in this study are
practicing sorcery then to you, I can only say, "the Lord rebuke
thee".

On Jul 19, 7:37 pm, mary <mary7b...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> My comments on this thread:
>
> We have some information revealed through scripture, all that we need on the topic. God created all spirits and He created mankind and he set boundaries.  The spirits, angels who were thrown down from heaven either because they had a ruler that rebelled against God or because they were confederate in that rebellion were confined to the earth.  Our Heavenly Father in His great wisdom allowed the spirits to remain for mankind to be influenced by and to overcome. 
>
> They were collectively such a terrible influence that man's imagination and thoughts were continually evil and actions followed to the point that God regretted making mankind because of the suffering and so He began again with Noah, limited mankind's years from the approimate 900-1,000 years to generally less than a 100 and gave warning to those spirits.  Jesus Christ preached to those imprisoned spirits on earth during the days of Noah, preached so that there was an opportunity for repentence for what other reason is there to preach?
>
> We are told that we shall judge the angels/spirits. I believe we shall judge them not by name or role in their worlds, for it is my impression that we are not to ask their names and that scripture indicates our interest in spirit beings as individuals should be very limited to only Jesus Christ and God the Father.  We can be interested in all their behavior, however in the field of judging that behavior:

>         * do they respect the boundaries Christ set for them? (Jesus Christ cast them out of men, women and children and forbade them to re-enter them so that indicates one boundary is no possessing a person)
>         * do they influence mankind to commit acts that violate people's conscience?
>         * are they themselves deceived?

> It is my opinion that getting into spirit personalities and so forth is akin to sorcery and I'll have no part of that.  
>  
> ~~mary
> Romans 8:28
>
>  
>
> ________________________________

> From: Theda <thedahor...@gmail.com>

[Theda]

Oops. Typo. This should read: "As GARY pointed out..."

[Frank W. Olive]

Hi Gary,

 

As for the marriages you are right what is wrong with that as it is done all the time. It goes on to say they DEFILED themselves with women.  And eating and drinking again what is wrong with that. But as Theda pointed out they came to eat human flesh and drink blood.

 

If we take a good look at the background perhaps a little light can be shed on why marriages and eating and drinking seem to refer to something bad that was going on back in Noah's time.

 

The thing is that Christ tells us that as  it was in that day so shall it be  in the end times. If it were not for Christ pointing out something that was gonna happen and perhaps be a sign for us, I personaly don't think I would be interested in digging a little bit to perhaps come to an understanding of what it is that was wrong and is supposed to take place again.

 

I know from past teachings at various denominations, the guessing about what kind of marriages ran the full spectrum. Racial, homosexual, and even beastial. Lots of guessing out there on  this point.

 

Some teach that the eating and drinking which seems to be refered to as wrong was from eating unclean foods, some have speculated that it was gluttony and drunkeness again we see alot of guessing.

 

It just seems that with a little background research to put the puzzle pieces out where we can see them, that possibly this was a reference to practices employed by the fallen angels and their children.

 

There are new testament warnings that anyone following this thread should be aware of.

 

We should not speak lightly of the watchers, they have great power here and now, and can lay a  person low, just a Job suffered.

 

We are not talking about the easter bunny here, it is as if we were dropped behind enemy lines when we were born into  this world. Great powers that have dominion would destroy all they could. Our eyes must continualy remain upon that city whose foundations were not layed by the hands of men.

 

Thank you for this forum, I have come to respect the sincerity of those that post and am thankful for being a member.

 

Frank

----- Original Message -----

From: Gary & Elizabeth Anderson

To: the-ten-comman...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 7:37 PM

Subject: Re: some notes on WATCHERS

virus found in this incoming message

[mary]

Hello Theda,

God does reveal some names in scripture of Angels, what I said is "we should not ask their names" something different than knowing what God chooses to reveal.  When God reveals the name of an angel it is usually to convey a meaning to a particular person at a particular time to give them understanding as He sees the need to do so for their sake. 

 

As to the goat of departure, it is one half of a sin offering.  It was pushed off a cliff by the Jews because it often would return to the place it was lead away from and they considered it to have their sins on it and bringing them back symbolically.

 

Hebrews 9 reveals who bears our sins.  May God rebuke all those who teach spiritual matters not approved by Him through His word. 

 

 

~~mary
Romans 8:28

 

---

From: Theda <theda...@gmail.com>

To: The Ten Commandments Calendar <the-ten-comman...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 1:29:54 AM

[notaxbill]

Theda I really don't have a clue who I am posting this to. I hope all. I may just be getting mentally slow in my advanced years.
What are you trying to find out in this study? I believe in good angels bad angels.
I think Frank may have a legit point about mixed marriage manly for the jews sake. Not you and me. I feel when you hear the word
elect it means Israel when you hear the called out ones "dat be usens." Just being cute there.  I'd bet you someone would disagree.
Anyway what is the bottom line in a nutshell on watchers study? 

--
A day is lost if one has not laughed.
Don't find fault, find a remedy

[notaxbill]

Theda and Gary anyone else the Bible Forum is up again
End times

[Theda]

There have been debates elsewhere about the two goats.
The Lord is the only one who can atone for our sins, but he never
caused us to sin, never tempted us to sin. The Azazel did. There is a
great difference between them.
The ritual is a two-parter. One goat represented the Lamb of God
making atonement for us. The other goat, the Azazel, was symbolic of
removing the cause of sin by driving it into the wilderness.

Understanding, for me, that a powerful, evil spirit named Azazel was
influential in the time before the flood came from the study of Enoch.
That particular spirit is now bound with 90% of the other evil
Watchers. But 10% are apparently still around. There's a phrase:" Know
thine enemy". It helps to know what we are up against. We've been
warned.to put on the whole armor of God, "...that ye may be able to
stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh
and blood, but against principalities , against powers, against the
rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in
high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God..." Part
of that armor is Truth. The Holy Spirit is to guide us into all truth.
When we know the truth, it will make us free.

On Jul 20, 6:45 am, mary <mary7b...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hello Theda,
> God does reveal some names in scripture of Angels, what I said is "we should not ask their names" something different than knowing what God chooses to reveal.  When God reveals the name of an angel it is usually to convey a meaning to a particular person at a particular time to give them understanding as He sees the need to do so for their sake. 
>
> As to the goat of departure, it is one half of a sin offering.  It was pushed off a cliff by the Jews because it often would return to the place it was lead away from and they considered it to have their sins on it and bringing them back symbolically.
>
> Hebrews 9 reveals who bears our sins.  May God rebuke all those who teach spiritual matters not approved by Him through His word. 
>
> ~~mary
> Romans 8:28
>
> ________________________________

> ...
>
> read more »

[Theda]

The bottom line has to be getting to the truth. We are peeling off
layers of a mysterious puzzle. The brief, enigmatic references to
Watchers, the "sons of god" and the "daughters of men", the concept of
"defiled" or "not defiled by women", one or two groups of 144,000, the
comparison of "last days" before the return of Christ to the days
before the flood, Enoch's message to those living in the last days,
giants and monsters and how they came about... all of these are
connected.
The essential "bottom line" is that we are to obey God and keep His
commandments. That will not change. Hold on to that while the Spirit
leads us into all truth.

[Theda]

You are most welcome, Frank. The input from our members is what keeps
it going. There are over forty members in this group. It would be
great to hear from the rest of you. Human nature being what it is,
there should be at least forty different opinions on any given
subject.



On Jul 20, 1:59 pm, "Frank W. Olive" <frankol...@frankolive.com>
wrote:

>     No virus found in this incoming message

[mary]

Yes, there have been debates.  When in doubt, pray, and look to see if the matter is clarified in scripture in the context that deals with that subject.

 

Hebrews 9:

 

 Topic: Atonement 

 

⁶ Now when these things had been thus prepared, the priests always went into the first part of the tabernacle, performing the services. ⁷ But into the second part the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the people’s sins committed in ignorance; ⁸ the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing.

 

Symbolism

 

⁹ It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience— ¹⁰ concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. ¹⁶ For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. ¹⁷ For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. ¹⁸ Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood. ¹⁹ For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, ²⁰ saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you.”^{[b] 21} Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. ²² And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

 

Reality:

 

²³ Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. ²⁴ For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; ²⁵ not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— ²⁶ He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. ²⁷ And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, ²⁸ so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

 

 

 

~~mary
Romans 8:28

 

 

---

From: Theda <theda...@gmail.com>

To: The Ten Commandments Calendar <the-ten-comman...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 2:45:25 PM

[Trumpets]

Hello,

I believe this is mentioned four times in the bible. The annual
Sabbaths and days of observance that God prescribed in the Old
Testament foreshadow important and significant steps in God's plan of
salvation. I was recently having a discussion about why there is both
Passover and the day of Atonement, and I believe that what you have
said, Theda, is the reason.

I believe the prescribed observances in the spring foreshadow the
things that would be fulfilled with Jesus' first coming, and those in
the fall foreshadow things that would happen or be fulfilled with his
second coming. Passover was fulfilled with the first coming, and
Atonement will be ultimately fulfilled after the second coming.

I'm not yet familiar with this group, so please forgive me if I
explain too much, you seem to be on a high level of understanding here
- and I'm thrilled to be reading such posts!

In Lev 23: 26-32 the Day of Atonement is commanded to be observed on
the tenth day of the seventh month;

Lev 16 tells more of what they were to do on that day, and we know
it's about the Day of Atonement because of verse 29. (This is the part
with the goat bearing iniquities and being sent into the wilderness.)

Then the ultimate fulfillment of this, what it foreshadowed, is
mentioned twice in the New Testament; by Jesus in Matt 25: 31-46, and
also in Rev 20: 1-15 and continuing on to the end of the book. In both
of these scriptures, the sheep, God's people, are fully atoned,
restored, made one with God, and the goats are sent away for good.

Also, the Jubilee year started on the Day of Atonement, and it
pictures restoration of land, freedom for slaves, and forgiveness of
debts. When you put all of this together, everything that for lack of
a better term "went wrong" in the Garden of Eden at the beginning of
Genesis, is restored at the end of Revelation. Men’s' slavery to sin
is ended for good, men’s debts of sin are squared away for good, Jesus
fully takes up his rulership, and his people inherit the Kingdom and
sit on his throne with him reigning as kings and priests. Satan became
the ruler of this world at the beginning of Genesis, and everything
Adam lost is restored back to him, and Satan gets his recompense for
his part in it at the end of Revelation. Access to the Tree of Life
was lost in the garden, and it's restored at the end of Revelation.
Atonement and the two goats, or the sheep and the goats, foreshadows
what will happen at the end of this age:

Matt 25
[31] When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy
angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
[32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall
separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from
the goats:
[33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on
the left.
[34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye
blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the
foundation of the world: …
[41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from
me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his
angels: …
[46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the
righteous into life eternal.

Rev 20
[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire
and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be
tormented day and night for ever and ever. …
[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the
second death.
[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast
into the lake of fire.

Rev 21
[3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the
tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they
shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their
God.
[5] And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things
new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and
faithful.
[6] And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the
beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the
fountain of the water of life freely.
[7] He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his
God, and he shall be my son.
[8] But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and
murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all
liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and
brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 22
[1] And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal,
proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
[2] In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river,
was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and
yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the
healing of the nations. …
14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have
right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the
city.

Man will then be back to where he was before the fall, except now
those who will be there will have chosen to obey God, they will have
known good and evil, and have chosen good.

Pat