Skill and Talent

[PJay Pages]

What is skill and talent? Or are these two words interchangeable? If
they are two separate words that can not be used interchangeably,
which would you rather have, skill or talent?

I ask all these questions because I hear the word talent/talented a
lot either on t.v. when I watch UFC, or watch/read an interview of an
up and comer in jiu jitsu on the internet, and even through people at
the gym (now not necessarily just at LA Boxing, but other gyms I have
once trained at as well). I wonder to myself when people talk of these
talented fighters, why is of the two adjectives they use talented or
skillful, they use the word talented to describe said person? Are they
just talented, so that's all they can use to describe this person? Do
they have more talent than skill, or what? I don't here to many people
using the word skillful to describe someone that is good on the mats
or in the ring.

I think that both words are not interchangeable, I feel they are two
separate adjectives. One of which I believe that can be built upon
like a snow ball rolling down never ending a hill - skill.

I feel that talent is volatile and can go with time. If a fighter
depends on talent alone and not build on his/her skill sets, they will
suffer. But skill is not. If a fighter is skillful, he/she can build
on this skill, creating new skill sets or building even more on there
snowball by pushing it further and further down the hill.

I think I would rather have skill.

[PJay Pages]

After talking to a couple of you guys at the gym last week. Maybe
talent and skill are not different. Maybe in definition they are
different. Now that I think of it a bit more. I suppose one is not
better than the other or one should be need over the other, maybe they
are both needed. You need talent to make your skill work and you need
skill for the sake of needing it to improve.

What do you guys think?

P Jay

[PJay Pages]

I think Pete nailed it - That you needed talent to make your skill
work.

[Mike Rosie Rosenfield]

Shouldn't it be that you need skill to make your talent work?

Talent, at least how I see it, is natural ability. Someone who has
talent shows the propensity to quickly master a task, to learn
something and apply it better and faster than the average. The
talented individual will gain skill quickly, but if he/she is
unwilling to put the time in to gain the skill in the first place, the
potential of the talent will go unrealized.

Skill is mastery of a subject usually gained through study and
practice. Talent does not automatically cultivate skill, skill must
be developed. An individual of lesser talent can make up for this by
putting in the extra time and effort to gain skill (to a degree of
course).

In conclusion, talent is great but it must be accompanied by skill.

And yes, I would rather have talent, but only because I know I'm
willing to put in the work to gain skill.

> > > I think I would rather have skill.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[William G Buttner II]

♫   I GOT SKILLLLZZZZ, HEY-HEY!!!  ♫

 

 

-Greg

[souseik...@gmail.com]

Okay! It's time for big brother Jay to put in my 2 cents. Just as
Pjay acknowledged the difference in definition, in my opinion, they
are different and the same at the same time. Different in meaning yet
similar in regards to the development in one's ability! Let's take BJ
Penn for example. We all know his history. Black belt in 3 years,
won worlds, etc.! BJ is a person with skill and just as much talent
that brought him where he is today. He had the raw natural talent for
the game of Jiu-Jitsu, Martial Arts, and pretty much any other
combative sport as it seems. That raw talent that he has is what he
used to learn and pick things up so quickly. When many think about BJ
and how talented he is, Many think and say, "you're either born with
it or not and/or "You either have it or you don't!" I personally feel
otherwise and I feel that everyone is talented to on degree or
another. It's simply going to vary from person to person; which why
some people have to work just a little bit harder than others when it
comes to skill. Skill does feed off talent, but it doesn't rely on
it. An individual's sheer drive and desire to learn is more than
enough. Talent will only take you so far! If you don't have the
desire to get off the couch and into the gym to train, all that talent
sitting on the couch playing video games or watching movies won't mean
sh*t! You're not going to pick things up via osmosis! You need to
have the want, the need, the desire to learn. So, if you have all the
talent of BJ Penn but you simply don't go to the gym to develop upon
the skill, again talent doesn't mean sh*t! I personally feel that
desire and passion to learn is far more important that talent. In my
opinion, I see talent as a crutch. A crutch that a persons ego will
sit on; A crutch that will give a person bad habits and reliant on
things outside of technique! So, that my 2 cents! What do you think?

[Pete Potelunas]

I wish I had some skills... You know, like nunchuck skills, bowhunting
skills, computer hacking skills... Girls only want boyfriends who have
great skills...

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Chris Morgan]

I agree to disagree really. I think that we all have valid points and
Jay you are right if you have the talent but not the will to improve
your skill level then that is all you are a wasted talent. You hear
about that all the time in mainstream sports. "He/she had all the
talent in the world but wasted it." If you think that talent alone
will get you places then you are wrong, but at the same time if you
just "show up" and let your talent work for you then you can always be
good. You are just as good as you want to be, if you show up and bust
your ass you can get the skill you need to be succesful. When you gain
the skills that you need you can then become talented.

[Jay Pages]

I got no skills!

480-747-5706

http://www.souseiki.com
http://genesisunited.podbean.com
http://souseiki.proboards61.com/
souseik...@gmail.com
sous...@cox.net

[William G Buttner II]

ALL,

 

THIS IS GOING TO BE LENGTHY!!!

 

First off to touch on BJ Penn, everybody can say what they want about the guy about how he has talent and he has this and that.  I take nothing away from his abilities to fight and his abilities to perform JJ.  The thing is there is a reason that he received his BB in 3 years.  The guy was born with a silver spoon in his mouth.  What I am saying is that if any one person in the world could put down everything they are doing and train night and day without having to worry about money then of course they are going to receive their BB at an accelerated pace.  For example if I went everyday for 5-6 hours a day just studying MT and JJ.  What would be the result ’ceteris paribus’. I would get significantly better at it correct?  Of course.  The thing is that this day in age it is much harder to concentrate on extra curricular activities then it used to be because of money.

 

Now for the other argument…

 

Talent can be used or abused…right?  Skills can lay dormant or be developed…right?   So what I have devised is a plan to draw how these 2 correlate to each other.  They basically work with each other… the farthest point upper right is the best.  I will put examples of these people on the chart ass well.   Here is the chart:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To take examples of lost and wasted talent… Pete Rose, Michael Irving, Daryl Strawberry, some could even say Mike Tyson, others could say Babe Ruth at times.  If his life wasn’t so messed up then maybe he would have hit 800 or even 900 home runs.  I think I am getting my point across when I say that just because you have talent doesn’t mean anything…it is what you chose to do with those talents and how you apply them to become the farthest upper right that you can.  The Payton Manning’s of the world, the Emmit Smith’s (does anyone realize he was only like 5’7” tall), The Hank Aaron’s, The Muhammad Ali, Tiger Woods, Shit even Arnold Schwarzenegger.  The man was a farm boy from Austria who grew up to win the youngest Mr. Olympia, marry a Kennedy, become a huge box office star, and then become “da governator.”  Who can say any of that mans talent or skills have been wasted or have been mis-used?  I certainly couldn’t.

 

In conclusion I challenge everyone to come up with a person that has wasted their talent and who has developed their talents to the best that anyone dreamed possible.  And no taking the ones I have already listed would be shameful and you shall be executed in an orderly fashion. J  Have a great day chaps.  Cheers governor!!!

 

-GREG

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[William G Buttner II]

Nobody so much as comments on my dissertation about skill versus talent???  For shame for shame…

[Jay Pages]

I accept your challenge!

 

Let's take a look the defenition of the 2.

 

Talent: a special natural ability or aptitude: a talent for drawing

Skill: the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well: Carpentry was one of his many skills.

 

Now, I think you have it backwards.  It is skill that id developed and built upon.  Not the other way around.  As you can see talent is based upon natural ability.  When you start to talk about building upon talent, that floods over to Skill and that is where the building takes place.  As per the example following the defenition of talent; you can draw or you can't draw; you can sing or not sing;  you can dance or you can't dance.  These are talents you either have or you don't have.  You can't teach talent.  You can't teach someone how to sing or dance well.  They either are tone deaf or have 2 left feet and you can't instruct someone out of that kind of a situation.

 

As per BJ, yeah he had the silver spoon.  But I've heard of and known people to have done the same and still not have the silver sppon fed to them.  Here are your examples.  Ryan Hall, holds a record of the most amount of Submissions via triangle and he got his purple in 2 years.  Lloyd Irvin got his black belt in BJJ in 3.5 years and his black belt in Judo and Sambo in 1 year.  Brandon vera Brown Belt in 3 years.  Mike fowler got his black belt in 4 years.  All done it while having full time jobs and all not know as having all the money in the world as BJ does. You are right that can happen in similar situations as BJ's, but that's not the only way it can happen and that's not the only reason BJ excels. 

 

Other examples outside of BJJ/MMA, there's Fredua Koranteng "Freddy" Adu (born 2 June 1989 in Tema, Ghana) is a Ghanaian-American soccer player for Real Salt Lake in Major League Soccer.

At the age of 14, Adu became the youngest professional athlete in modern American team sports history when he signed a professional contract with Major League Soccer, the top league of the United States soccer pyramid.

Another example, Nolan Ryan!  One of the best pitchers in his time.  That is somthing you can't teach.  You are born with that kind of talent.

Hope you enjoy the response. =)  See ya in the gym.

On 7/19/07, William G Buttner II <william...@gmail.com> wrote:

Nobody so much as comments on my dissertation about skill versus talent???  For shame for shame...

"A Genesis Jiu-Jitsu School!"
Head Jiu-Jitsu Instructor and MMA Instructor

[Mike Rosie Rosenfield]

Challenge accepted

Wasted talent: Vitor Belfort

Fully developed talent: Michael Schumacher, Michael Jordan, Michael
Rosenfield; you know, all the greats.

Although, anyone could argue that there is no such thing as fully
developed talent because we're all human and there's always things
that can be improved upon.

On Jul 19, 11:33 am, "William G Buttner II"

<william.butt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ALL,
>
> THIS IS GOING TO BE LENGTHY!!!
>
> First off to touch on BJ Penn, everybody can say what they want about the
> guy about how he has talent and he has this and that. I take nothing away
> from his abilities to fight and his abilities to perform JJ. The thing is
> there is a reason that he received his BB in 3 years. The guy was born with
> a silver spoon in his mouth. What I am saying is that if any one person in
> the world could put down everything they are doing and train night and day
> without having to worry about money then of course they are going to receive
> their BB at an accelerated pace. For example if I went everyday for 5-6
> hours a day just studying MT and JJ. What would be the result 'ceteris
> paribus'. I would get significantly better at it correct? Of course. The
> thing is that this day in age it is much harder to concentrate on extra
> curricular activities then it used to be because of money.
>

> Now for the other argument.
>
> Talent can be used or abused.right? Skills can lay dormant or be
> developed.right? So what I have devised is a plan to draw how these 2
> correlate to each other. They basically work with each other. the farthest

> point upper right is the best. I will put examples of these people on the
> chart ass well. Here is the chart:
>

> To take examples of lost and wasted talent. Pete Rose, Michael Irving, Daryl

> Strawberry, some could even say Mike Tyson, others could say Babe Ruth at
> times. If his life wasn't so messed up then maybe he would have hit 800 or
> even 900 home runs. I think I am getting my point across when I say that

> just because you have talent doesn't mean anything.it is what you chose to

> do with those talents and how you apply them to become the farthest upper
> right that you can. The Payton Manning's of the world, the Emmit Smith's
> (does anyone realize he was only like 5'7" tall), The Hank Aaron's, The
> Muhammad Ali, Tiger Woods, Shit even Arnold Schwarzenegger. The man was a
> farm boy from Austria who grew up to win the youngest Mr. Olympia, marry a
> Kennedy, become a huge box office star, and then become "da governator."
> Who can say any of that mans talent or skills have been wasted or have been
> mis-used? I certainly couldn't.
>
> In conclusion I challenge everyone to come up with a person that has wasted
> their talent and who has developed their talents to the best that anyone
> dreamed possible. And no taking the ones I have already listed would be

> shameful and you shall be executed in an orderly fashion. :-) Have a great

> day chaps. Cheers governor!!!
>
> -GREG
>

> image002.gif
> 6KViewDownload

[William G Buttner II]

Vitor Belfort...maybe. This is dependent upon whether he actually did know
about the testosterone that was injected after his ACL surgery. Reason
being if he didn't know then he was just a victim of circumstances. Now he
has fought this year and won but will he ever get back to where he was who
knows. Also if you look at his personal life he actually overcame a lot
including the kidnapping of his sister, he actually speaks like 4 languages.
So I am not sure despite his lack luster career lately, that this may be a
good candidate. I will agree though that Rosenfield guy has got some skils!!

LOL...as far as the other 2 Jordan definitely...he demanded absolute
perfection in everything he did and everybody around him. Schumacher, that
is just in the genes I think. The whole family is ridiculously good at
racing...but that might go back to the argument of nature versus nurture.

-----Original Message-----
From: the-souse...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:the-souse...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Rosie
Rosenfield
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 3:43 PM
To: THE SOUSEIKI GROUP
Subject: Re: Skill and Talent

[William G Buttner II]

I guess with this argument we would have to go back to a use of generality.  Reason being is would I rather have talent or skill…good question.  Now if we talk about natural talent at picking things up (ie – BJ Penn) then maybe this would be better.  Or if we are talking a natural ability (ie – Schumacher) than maybe that latter of the two might not be such a bad idea.  Either way a combination of the two is required, not needed, but required to become good at something.  For example if you have no talent to pick things up (for example – I am horrible at learning languages) than I am not going to be able to learn.  If when I was growing up my parents spoke 15 different languages…even though this was the case and I didn’t have the ability to pick things up then it would matter how many languages they spoke if all I learned was English.  And hell I don’t even speak that much to well yall. J  Point being to become good at a skill it requires talent of some sort otherwise you skill will never develop the way it maybe is supposed to or others wish it to. 

 

Can we all agree?

 

---

From: the-souse...@googlegroups.com [mailto:the-souse...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jay Pages
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 2:57 PM
To: the-souse...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Skill and Talent

 

I accept your challenge!

[Mike Rosie Rosenfield]

I'm glad we agree on the most important point, Rosenfield has skills
and talent.

On Jul 19, 4:20 pm, "William G Buttner II" <william.butt...@gmail.com>

> > 6KViewDownload- Hide quoted text -

[PJay Pages]

I'm glad everyone has an opinion on this. This is exactly what I hoped
it would do.

On Jul 19, 5:15 pm, Mike Rosie Rosenfield <mrosenfi...@e-newmark.com>
wrote: