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khar...@aol.com
Mar 26, 2009, 11:09:04 AM3/26/09
to the-o...@googlegroups.com
So yeah, pretty crazy right? I was hoping Sayid would do something like that since it would only make sense, but when it happened it was still pretty damn shocking.
That said, there is no way Ben is dead, cuz it would seemingly go against a lot of the rules the show has set up. Plus, we've seen people on the show shot before that didn't die. . .
A friend of mine had an interesting theory about Rose and Bernard. Seeing as how they have been incognito all season, he suggested that "Rose and Bernard, alone on the beach, decide to go back to the caves as it would be the safest place for them, which is where they spend the rest of their days. Flash forward to 2004, Jack and Kate find two skeletons in the caves, a man and a woman: Rose and Bernard are 'Adam and Eve.'"
Maaaaaaaaaybe?
That said, there is no way Ben is dead, cuz it would seemingly go against a lot of the rules the show has set up. Plus, we've seen people on the show shot before that didn't die. . .
A friend of mine had an interesting theory about Rose and Bernard. Seeing as how they have been incognito all season, he suggested that "Rose and Bernard, alone on the beach, decide to go back to the caves as it would be the safest place for them, which is where they spend the rest of their days. Flash forward to 2004, Jack and Kate find two skeletons in the caves, a man and a woman: Rose and Bernard are 'Adam and Eve.'"
Maaaaaaaaaybe?
wesley gunn
Mar 26, 2009, 11:59:40 AM3/26/09
to the-o...@googlegroups.com
Yea, I doubt Ben is dead, but it was shocking altho I could guess it was coming.
That's an interesting theory about R&B, lol.
khar...@aol.com
Mar 26, 2009, 12:23:30 PM3/26/09
to the-o...@googlegroups.com
From another Lost discussion I'm currently having on Facebook -- the book young Ben was reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Separate_Reality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Separate_Reality
moond...@aol.com
Mar 26, 2009, 1:06:58 PM3/26/09
to the-o...@googlegroups.com
no way that little bastard is dead. though it would be kinda cool to see present ben start to disappear/erase from existence. and i'm glad how the played out. it was kinda annoyin the shit outta me that sayid wouldn't accept any help. but seein his whole plot come to fruition was satisfying. one gripe though. how the hell did sayid know that was a younger ben (aren't there plenty of people on this planet named ben?) personally, a 12 year
old version of me could jump in a time machine and run into current me
and I'd have no damn clue who the hell past me was. there's no way sayid
simply recognized ben. and how did sayid even know what year he was in?
wesley gunn
Mar 26, 2009, 1:50:20 PM3/26/09
to the-o...@googlegroups.com
He knew because Ben told him he met Richard and was being "patient"...
moond...@aol.com
Mar 26, 2009, 1:55:49 PM3/26/09
to the-o...@googlegroups.com
that still leaves a lot left for sayid to fill in.
Khary Randolph
Mar 26, 2009, 2:42:48 PM3/26/09
to the-o...@googlegroups.com
C'mon now. Just like we all knew who he was, so did Sayid. They've spent enough time together to where he'd know. How many Bens could there be in a small community like that?
Sent from my KharuptPhone
Sent from my KharuptPhone
moond...@aol.com
Mar 26, 2009, 2:51:10 PM3/26/09
to the-o...@googlegroups.com
we at least had the benefit of seein young ben a couple seasons ago. sayid (if i remember correctly) was never even told he was back in the past. now if i happen to wake up one day and this 12 year old kid comes to me and introduces himself as Khary I might think "holy shit i time traveled". but to me it's a bit of a stretch (and lazy writing) for sayid to have figured out his whole situation just from havin lil ben come see him.
wesley gunn
Mar 26, 2009, 2:57:38 PM3/26/09
to the-o...@googlegroups.com
You gotta figure too that sawyer told him a bit of what's going on...in terms of them being in dharma times and trying to get him to play along. he knew he was back in the past, in the drama camp - even told them cats they were all gonna die...and there could only be so many ben's ( that also met richard) at that camp.
Russell August
Mar 26, 2009, 3:03:31 PM3/26/09
to The Orchid
Little Ben is definitely dead. General, they show is pretty smart
about making it obvious if someone is killed. When Locke was shot, it
was clear he was shot by the same organ he had removed. When Jin blew
up, the specifically didn't show him getting blown up, yet it was very
clear Michael took a face-full of C4. Mikhail kept coming back in a
very Michael Meyers sort of way, but it was still clear he could be
alive, even though unlikely. Baby Ben took a bullet to the heart. I
think they were trying to visually make a point that he's, like,
dead.
Now what I'm waiting for is the smoke monster to find Ben's body and
drag it into the temple. That'd be sweet. Ben, as a person, seems
very very different when he's younger. Maybe something absurd
happens to make him change so drastically...?
about making it obvious if someone is killed. When Locke was shot, it
was clear he was shot by the same organ he had removed. When Jin blew
up, the specifically didn't show him getting blown up, yet it was very
clear Michael took a face-full of C4. Mikhail kept coming back in a
very Michael Meyers sort of way, but it was still clear he could be
alive, even though unlikely. Baby Ben took a bullet to the heart. I
think they were trying to visually make a point that he's, like,
dead.
Now what I'm waiting for is the smoke monster to find Ben's body and
drag it into the temple. That'd be sweet. Ben, as a person, seems
very very different when he's younger. Maybe something absurd
happens to make him change so drastically...?
wesley gunn
Mar 26, 2009, 3:05:02 PM3/26/09
to the-o...@googlegroups.com
yeah I can get down with the idea the he dies, then the island brings him back somehow...as that's happened a few times now...
khar...@aol.com
Mar 26, 2009, 3:06:41 PM3/26/09
to the-o...@googlegroups.com
Exactly. He knows he's in the past. He told them himself he was from the future. It might have been off camera, but I get the feeling Sawyer has at least filled him on the current sitch.
If there was any lazy writing, it was in the fact that the interrogators really didnt grill Sayid much further past "Im from the future." He knew way too much stuff for them to disregard him and be like "we should kill this guy." No one even really asked about that Sawyer guy he mentioned (conveniently).
If there was any lazy writing, it was in the fact that the interrogators really didnt grill Sayid much further past "Im from the future." He knew way too much stuff for them to disregard him and be like "we should kill this guy." No one even really asked about that Sawyer guy he mentioned (conveniently).
moond...@aol.com
Mar 26, 2009, 3:19:23 PM3/26/09
to the-o...@googlegroups.com
yeah. that guy Radzinsky even mentions that they haven't even built the Swan yet (tho that's what they were planning to name it). that in itself should've been suspect to the dharma folks.
Message has been deleted
Melissa Stanley
Mar 27, 2009, 7:56:30 AM3/27/09
to the-o...@googlegroups.com
i'm curious if the bullet gets lodged near ben's spine, where a tumor
will grow around it, which jack will have to remove in the fuuuuture.
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 3:34 PM, Abbey Chrystal <abc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I had been hoping that Ben and Sayid would be each other's salvation -
> in that Sayid would "change" ,as he said he was trying to do, and by
> being a positive force in young ben's life would change ben as well as
> himself. however, the flash of young Sayid in the beginning must have
> been meant to show that sayid knew that these tendencies/instincts
> start young, and may not always be situational. perhaps it was
> included as an insight to sayid's thought process in deciding to kill
> young ben, even though it was obvious that the decision was not easy
> for him.
will grow around it, which jack will have to remove in the fuuuuture.
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 3:34 PM, Abbey Chrystal <abc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I had been hoping that Ben and Sayid would be each other's salvation -
> in that Sayid would "change" ,as he said he was trying to do, and by
> being a positive force in young ben's life would change ben as well as
> himself. however, the flash of young Sayid in the beginning must have
> been meant to show that sayid knew that these tendencies/instincts
> start young, and may not always be situational. perhaps it was
> included as an insight to sayid's thought process in deciding to kill
> young ben, even though it was obvious that the decision was not easy
> for him.
wesley gunn
Mar 27, 2009, 8:06:21 AM3/27/09
to the-o...@googlegroups.com
That's an interesting thought.
Recently I've been watching the series from the beginning with my girlfriend, as she is now getting into it. I just watched an ep about R&B That makes me think K's friends theory really could work.
Considering Rose is healed by the island, she has no intention of leaving. I can def see her and B living between the beach and caves until the end of their days. It would wrap up their story nicely.
Wes
Recently I've been watching the series from the beginning with my girlfriend, as she is now getting into it. I just watched an ep about R&B That makes me think K's friends theory really could work.
Considering Rose is healed by the island, she has no intention of leaving. I can def see her and B living between the beach and caves until the end of their days. It would wrap up their story nicely.
Wes
heathaho
Mar 27, 2009, 11:27:38 AM3/27/09
to The Orchid
Yes I have been thinking the very same thing about Rose and Bernard
for quite some time now!
That they are the "adam & eve in the cave"
Also it's interesting how jack finds a small bag on the bodies with
one black stone and one white stone.
Could parallel that Bernard is white and Rose is black perhaps?
Although, I'd like to see them again in the show.
I keep waiting for them to pop up somewhere....
We haven't seen them since the time flashing started.
I wonder what the purpose of just having them hide in a cave and
perish would be?
Maybe there are other circumstances....?
for quite some time now!
That they are the "adam & eve in the cave"
Also it's interesting how jack finds a small bag on the bodies with
one black stone and one white stone.
Could parallel that Bernard is white and Rose is black perhaps?
Although, I'd like to see them again in the show.
I keep waiting for them to pop up somewhere....
We haven't seen them since the time flashing started.
I wonder what the purpose of just having them hide in a cave and
perish would be?
Maybe there are other circumstances....?
heathaho
Mar 27, 2009, 11:34:26 AM3/27/09
to The Orchid
interesting thought about the bullet.
i was thinking the same thing....but I don't remember if that shows up
in the xray in 2004 when Jack goes in to do the surgery?
On Mar 27, 7:56 am, Melissa Stanley <dieradio...@gmail.com> wrote:
> i'm curious if the bullet gets lodged near ben's spine, where a tumor
> will grow around it, which jack will have to remove in the fuuuuture.
>
> On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 3:34 PM, Abbey Chrystal <abc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I had been hoping that Ben and Sayid would be each other's salvation -
> > in that Sayid would "change" ,as he said he was trying to do, and by
> > being a positive force in young ben's life would change ben as well as
> > himself. however, the flash of young Sayid in the beginning must have
> > been meant to show that sayid knew that these tendencies/instincts
> > start young, and may not always be situational. perhaps it was
> > included as an insight to sayid's thought process in deciding to kill
> > young ben, even though it was obvious that the decision was not easy
> > for him.
>
i was thinking the same thing....but I don't remember if that shows up
in the xray in 2004 when Jack goes in to do the surgery?
On Mar 27, 7:56 am, Melissa Stanley <dieradio...@gmail.com> wrote:
> i'm curious if the bullet gets lodged near ben's spine, where a tumor
> will grow around it, which jack will have to remove in the fuuuuture.
>
> On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 3:34 PM, Abbey Chrystal <abc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I had been hoping that Ben and Sayid would be each other's salvation -
> > in that Sayid would "change" ,as he said he was trying to do, and by
> > being a positive force in young ben's life would change ben as well as
> > himself. however, the flash of young Sayid in the beginning must have
> > been meant to show that sayid knew that these tendencies/instincts
> > start young, and may not always be situational. perhaps it was
> > included as an insight to sayid's thought process in deciding to kill
> > young ben, even though it was obvious that the decision was not easy
> > for him.
>
heathaho
Mar 27, 2009, 11:39:02 AM3/27/09
to The Orchid
I dunno.... I don't think time travel is even a feasable, imaginable
reality of a thought to them in Dharma at this time. (doesn't the
frozen donkey wheel excavation happen later in the timeline....like
the 80's or 90's {not sure})
I think Radzinsky thinks that Syaid just saw all the plans (possibly
Swan was written somewhere...who knows) and is spazzing out.
btw....Radzinsky is A-NNOY-ING!
On Mar 26, 3:19 pm, moondog...@aol.com wrote:
> yeah. that guy Radzinsky even mentions that they haven't even built the Swan yet (tho that's what they were planning to name it). that in itself should've been suspect to the dharma folks.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: kharup...@aol.com
> To: the-o...@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 3:06 pm
> Subject: Re: Whoa.
>
> Exactly. He knows he's in the past. He told them himself he was from the future. It might have been off camera, but I get the feeling Sawyer has at least filled him on the current sitch.
>
> If there was any lazy writing, it was in the fact that the interrogators really didnt grill Sayid much further past "Im from the future." He knew way too much stuff for them to disregard him and be like "we should kill this guy." No one even really asked about that Sawyer guy he mentioned (conveniently).
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
reality of a thought to them in Dharma at this time. (doesn't the
frozen donkey wheel excavation happen later in the timeline....like
the 80's or 90's {not sure})
I think Radzinsky thinks that Syaid just saw all the plans (possibly
Swan was written somewhere...who knows) and is spazzing out.
btw....Radzinsky is A-NNOY-ING!
On Mar 26, 3:19 pm, moondog...@aol.com wrote:
> yeah. that guy Radzinsky even mentions that they haven't even built the Swan yet (tho that's what they were planning to name it). that in itself should've been suspect to the dharma folks.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: kharup...@aol.com
> To: the-o...@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 3:06 pm
> Subject: Re: Whoa.
>
> Exactly. He knows he's in the past. He told them himself he was from the future. It might have been off camera, but I get the feeling Sawyer has at least filled him on the current sitch.
>
> If there was any lazy writing, it was in the fact that the interrogators really didnt grill Sayid much further past "Im from the future." He knew way too much stuff for them to disregard him and be like "we should kill this guy." No one even really asked about that Sawyer guy he mentioned (conveniently).
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: wesley gunn <biggun...@gmail.com>
>
> To: the-o...@googlegroups.com
>
> Sent: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 2:57 pm
>
> Subject: Re: Whoa.
>
> You gotta figure too that sawyer told him a bit of what's going on...in terms of them being in dharma times and trying to get him to play along. he knew he was back in the past, in the drama camp - even told them cats they were all gonna die...and there could only be so many ben's ( that also met richard) at that camp.?
>
> To: the-o...@googlegroups.com
>
> Sent: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 2:57 pm
>
> Subject: Re: Whoa.
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 2:51 PM, <moondog...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> we at least had the benefit of seein young ben a couple seasons ago. sayid (if i remember correctly) was never even told he was back in the past. now if i happen to wake up one day and this 12 year old kid comes to me and introduces himself as Khary I might think "holy shit i time traveled". but to me it's a bit of a stretch (and lazy writing) for sayid to have figured out his whole situation just from havin lil ben come see him.
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 2:51 PM, <moondog...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> we at least had the benefit of seein young ben a couple seasons ago. sayid (if i remember correctly) was never even told he was back in the past. now if i happen to wake up one day and this 12 year old kid comes to me and introduces himself as Khary I might think "holy shit i time traveled". but to me it's a bit of a stretch (and lazy writing) for sayid to have figured out his whole situation just from havin lil ben come see him.
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Khary Randolph <kharup...@aol.com>
>
> To: the-o...@googlegroups.com <the-o...@googlegroups.com>
>
> Sent: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 2:42 pm
>
> Subject: Re: Whoa.
>
> C'mon now. Just like we all knew who he was, so did Sayid. They've spent enough time together to where he'd know. How many Bens could there be in a small community like that?
>
> Sent from my KharuptPhone
>
>
> To: the-o...@googlegroups.com <the-o...@googlegroups.com>
>
> Sent: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 2:42 pm
>
> Subject: Re: Whoa.
>
> C'mon now. Just like we all knew who he was, so did Sayid. They've spent enough time together to where he'd know. How many Bens could there be in a small community like that?
>
> Sent from my KharuptPhone
>
> On Mar 26, 2009, at 1:55 PM, moondog...@aol.com wrote:
>
> that still leaves a lot left for sayid to fill in.
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> that still leaves a lot left for sayid to fill in.
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: wesley gunn <biggun...@gmail.com>
>
> To: the-o...@googlegroups.com
>
> Sent: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 1:50 pm
>
> Subject: Re: Whoa.
>
> He knew because Ben told him he met Richard and was being "patient"...
>
>
> To: the-o...@googlegroups.com
>
> Sent: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 1:50 pm
>
> Subject: Re: Whoa.
>
> He knew because Ben told him he met Richard and was being "patient"...
>
> On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 1:06 PM, <moondog...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> no way that little bastard is dead. though it would be kinda cool to see present ben start to disappear/erase from existence. and i'm glad how the played out. it was kinda annoyin the shit outta me that sayid wouldn't accept any help. but seein his whole plot come to fruition was satisfying. one gripe though. how the hell did sayid know that was a younger ben (aren't there plenty of people on this planet named ben?) personally, a 12 year
> old version of me could jump in a time machine and run into current me
> and I'd have no damn clue who the hell past me was. there's no way sayid
> simply recognized ben. and how did sayid even know what year he was in?
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> no way that little bastard is dead. though it would be kinda cool to see present ben start to disappear/erase from existence. and i'm glad how the played out. it was kinda annoyin the shit outta me that sayid wouldn't accept any help. but seein his whole plot come to fruition was satisfying. one gripe though. how the hell did sayid know that was a younger ben (aren't there plenty of people on this planet named ben?) personally, a 12 year
> old version of me could jump in a time machine and run into current me
> and I'd have no damn clue who the hell past me was. there's no way sayid
> simply recognized ben. and how did sayid even know what year he was in?
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: kharup...@aol.com
>
> To: the-o...@googlegroups.com
>
> Sent: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:09 am
>
> Subject: Whoa.
>
> So yeah, pretty crazy right? I was hoping Sayid would do something like that since it would only make sense, but when it happened it was still pretty damn shocking.
>
> That said, there is no way Ben is dead, cuz it would seemingly go against a lot of the rules the show has set up. Plus, we've seen people on the show shot before that didn't die. . .
>
> A friend of mine had an interesting theory about Rose and Bernard. Seeing as how they have been incognito all season, he suggested that "Rose and Bernard, alone on the beach, decide to go back to the caves as
> it would be the safest place for them, which is where they spend the
> rest of their days. Flash forward to 2004, Jack and Kate find two
> skeletons in the caves, a man and a woman: Rose and Bernard are 'Adam
> and Eve.'"
>
> Maaaaaaaaaybe?
>
>
> To: the-o...@googlegroups.com
>
> Sent: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:09 am
>
> Subject: Whoa.
>
> So yeah, pretty crazy right? I was hoping Sayid would do something like that since it would only make sense, but when it happened it was still pretty damn shocking.
>
> That said, there is no way Ben is dead, cuz it would seemingly go against a lot of the rules the show has set up. Plus, we've seen people on the show shot before that didn't die. . .
>
> A friend of mine had an interesting theory about Rose and Bernard. Seeing as how they have been incognito all season, he suggested that "Rose and Bernard, alone on the beach, decide to go back to the caves as
> it would be the safest place for them, which is where they spend the
> rest of their days. Flash forward to 2004, Jack and Kate find two
> skeletons in the caves, a man and a woman: Rose and Bernard are 'Adam
> and Eve.'"
>
> Maaaaaaaaaybe?
>
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> --
>
> Wes
>
> Wesley Gunn Creative
>
> http://www.wesleygunn.com
>
>
> --
>
> Wes
>
> Wesley Gunn Creative
>
> http://www.wesleygunn.com
>
> Great Deals on Dell 15" Laptops - Starting at $479
>
>
> Great Deals on Dell 15" Laptops - Starting at $479
>
> --
>
> Wes
>
> Wesley Gunn Creative
>
> http://www.wesleygunn.com
>
>
> --
>
> Wes
>
> Wesley Gunn Creative
>
> http://www.wesleygunn.com
>
heathaho
Mar 27, 2009, 11:44:10 AM3/27/09
to The Orchid
The salvation thought, kind of a cool poetic thought for the storyline
Abbey. :)
I find it interesting how in the hatch, Syaid had Ben behind bars
(locked int he storage closet) and now in the past (but actually
further along) Ben is looking in at Syaid behind bars.
I also find it quite humorous that their way of getting confessions is
via LSD or hallucenigenic of some sort....it's so peace, hippie,
Dharma 70's!
Let's use our clippers for cutting off handcuffs instead of fingers!
hehe.
On Mar 26, 3:34 pm, Abbey Chrystal <abc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I had been hoping that Ben and Sayid would be each other's salvation -
> in that Sayid would "change" ,as he said he was trying to do, and by
> being a positive force in young ben's life would change ben as well as
> himself. however, the flash of young Sayid in the beginning must have
> been meant to show that sayid knew that these tendencies/instincts
> start young, and may not always be situational. perhaps it was
> included as an insight to sayid's thought process in deciding to kill
> young ben, even though it was obvious that the decision was not easy
> for him.
>
> On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 8:09 AM, <kharup...@aol.com> wrote:
Abbey. :)
I find it interesting how in the hatch, Syaid had Ben behind bars
(locked int he storage closet) and now in the past (but actually
further along) Ben is looking in at Syaid behind bars.
I also find it quite humorous that their way of getting confessions is
via LSD or hallucenigenic of some sort....it's so peace, hippie,
Dharma 70's!
Let's use our clippers for cutting off handcuffs instead of fingers!
hehe.
On Mar 26, 3:34 pm, Abbey Chrystal <abc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I had been hoping that Ben and Sayid would be each other's salvation -
> in that Sayid would "change" ,as he said he was trying to do, and by
> being a positive force in young ben's life would change ben as well as
> himself. however, the flash of young Sayid in the beginning must have
> been meant to show that sayid knew that these tendencies/instincts
> start young, and may not always be situational. perhaps it was
> included as an insight to sayid's thought process in deciding to kill
> young ben, even though it was obvious that the decision was not easy
> for him.
>
> On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 8:09 AM, <kharup...@aol.com> wrote:
Dan D.
Mar 28, 2009, 5:38:30 PM3/28/09
to The Orchid
I think little Ben is definitely alive.
Not sure how clear it is that Ben was fatally shot, or that the bullet
went into his heart. I do agree that the show is good at making it
clear when someone is or is not dead, like Jin v. Michael, but Ben's
case is kind of hard to call. Not like they show him cradled in
Sayid's arms and taking his last breath and Sayid weeping as he closes
his eyes (or something). Jin will wake up and take him back to
Dharmaville, where (perhaps) Juliet will nurse him back to health,
causing Ben to be obsessed with women who look like Juliet (aka future
Juliet)? Or Richard could come out of the jungle and take him? Mostly
though, Ben has to be alive because as Daniel keeps saying, they can't
change the future. Current Ben must have a bullet wound, and he must
have also recognized current Sayid as the man who shot him as a kid.
Maybe that's why Ben is so quick to use Sayid to kill for him?
Not sure how clear it is that Ben was fatally shot, or that the bullet
went into his heart. I do agree that the show is good at making it
clear when someone is or is not dead, like Jin v. Michael, but Ben's
case is kind of hard to call. Not like they show him cradled in
Sayid's arms and taking his last breath and Sayid weeping as he closes
his eyes (or something). Jin will wake up and take him back to
Dharmaville, where (perhaps) Juliet will nurse him back to health,
causing Ben to be obsessed with women who look like Juliet (aka future
Juliet)? Or Richard could come out of the jungle and take him? Mostly
though, Ben has to be alive because as Daniel keeps saying, they can't
change the future. Current Ben must have a bullet wound, and he must
have also recognized current Sayid as the man who shot him as a kid.
Maybe that's why Ben is so quick to use Sayid to kill for him?
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