The Death (not the life) of Jeremy Bentham

[David Coleman]

Hey All,

I have some quick questions after watching "The Life and Death of
Jeremy Bentham". Why did Ben have to kill Locke if he saw that he was
going to kill himself anyway? Couldn't he have done the same thing if
he coaxed the "scarfaced walk-about wanting cripple twice over" to
just "go ahead and do it"? In my most humble and simple-minded
opinion I believe that it would have been much more enthralling,
enticing and downright entertaintainig if our short manipulative
douche of an arch-nemesis said something along the lines of:

"John...what are you doing"
<mumblings of failure and self-doubt>
"You're right, I'll wait here to make sure you're dead before I
leave. Don't let my presence stand in your way of suicide."

I bring this up not to be coy or witty. I bring it up to really
question why Locke's death had to be at the hands of Ben. It didn't
feel right. It screwed up the flow of the show and I feel like it
took away from a lot of what we were wondering. We now know that
Widmore = good. Linus = bad. They could have played this for the rest
of the show and resolved it in the final episode. We now know that
Locke is everything that Widmore said (i.e. savior of the island, Neo,
The One, the Messiah, etc.)

Anyone else have any ideas to share regarding this play from the
writers of our most talked about show? Does anyone feel as let down
that we finally have some semblence of an idea of where the show is
going now?

Dave

[Bryan Dunn]

Hi everybody.

Thanks to Dan for inviting me.  Couple of thoughts in response to David.

It's not clear that Ben WAS going to kill Locke initially when he went to the hotel.  One of two pieces of info that Locke disclosed after he came down may have changed his mind:

1. Locke tells Ben Jin is still alive, and gives him the ring as proof.

2. Locke tells Ben that Eloise Hawking is in LA (something that Widmore knows, since he told Desmond, but Ben evidently does not).  

Plus, Ben does say that he'll miss John after he kills him, and there's no one there to witness that, so no reason for Ben to lie or even say it if he won't actually miss Locke.  Also, Ben goes to great length to keep Locke's body 'safe', although we're not sure why yet.

It's not clear who's good or bad.  They're giving us a lot more reason to think of Ben as evil again, but Widmore isn't necessarily being straight with Locke either.  First off, he mentions peacefully guarding the island, although this is someone that snapped the neck of a friend when he threatened to divulge the location of the Others' camp, and likely had a hand in killing the American soldiers there previously.  And the secondary protocol, to torch the island, was under his orders.  So, even if Ben's evil, that doesn't mean Widmore's good.  Clearly, Locke is important, but he's also been manipulated by just about everyone on this show at one point or another (his father, Ben, Sawyer), and him buying into whatever Widmore's saying is just another example of that.  

For myself, I don't think it disrupted the flow of the show; if anything, Locke deciding on suicide initially seemed a little rushed.  We knew he was going to die, and I don't think most viewers honestly believed it was suicide.  

[khar...@aol.com]

"We now know that

Widmore = good. Linus = bad."

If you've watched this show for 5 seasons then you know that nothing is ever that simply laid out. Instead of black and white, both characters are varying degrees of grey, and they are going to continue to play with your perception of that for the rest of the series. They've BEEN doing that all along.

---

A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!

[Kyle Wilson]

Ben had to keep Locke alive so that he could get Eloise Hawking's
name. Once he got this, he killed Locke viciously, but he probably
knew that Locke would come back to life once he reached the island.
This is why he preserves the body so carefully. Therefore, Ben isn't
necessarily bad - he may just be doing what needs to be done in order
to get everyone back to the island. I think once he'd convinced Locke
NOT to kill himself, he would have been unable to then re-convince him
TO kill himself without seeming suspicious. He had to do it himself,
and he had to do it as quickly as possible because his time is limited
in getting everyone back to the island.

But, if I'm right, we dont know why Ben needed Eloise Hawking's name.
Clearly, the two know each other. Could it be that Eloise is some
kind of eternal conduit to the island and Ben keeps showing up on her
doorstep despite the fact that her identity is always changing? Maybe
Ben needs Jack's father's (Jacob?) cooperation to get to the Lamp Post
and he gets it through Locke this time since he is no longer in
Jacob's favor?

[Bryan Dunn]

I don't think it's her name; I think it's that she's in Los Angeles.  Since she was probably "Ellie" back in the flash to the 50s, it doesn't seem like she's changed her name much.  Ben may not even know about the Lamp Post initially; He didn't seem to know about the hatch or Desmond being on the island, despite being involved with the Dharma initiative (although he didn't seem to be particularly high on the Dharma totem pole).   If he knew he needed Locke's body right then, why wouldn't he take it with him?  We know that it causes the O6 to react when they find out, but for someone who needs to keep the body safe, he abandons it pretty quickly.

[David Coleman]

One other idea.  Why did Richard Alpert save Ben's life on the island.  It's possible that Ben is good to some degree, but, as Charles Widmore said in the last episode, "I haven't tried to kill you yet".  So it seems that the mess of the "good/evil" fight is going to continue for the remainder of the series.

[moond...@aol.com]

I also don't necessarily think Widmore is the good guy and Ben is the bad guy. Rather, I'd be willing to bet those two men are just out for themselves and the power they crave. The whole theme of people's quest for power and the negative consequences such pursuits can have on innocent people around them is something I could see the creators introducing (among many other themes mind u).

-----Original Message-----
From: David Coleman <davidco...@gmail.com>
To: the-o...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 9:37 am
Subject: Re: The Death (not the life) of Jeremy Bentham

One other idea.  Why did Richard Alpert save Ben's life on the island..  It's possible that Ben is good to some degree, but, as Charles Widmore said in the last episode, "I haven't tried to kill you yet".  So it seems that the mess of the "good/evil" fight is going to continue for the remainder of the series.

[Dan D'Ippolito]

I had thought that maybe Widmore was the Slugworth (the seemingly evil competitor of Willie Wonka) of LOST, but as Bryan said his breaking his friend's neck and hiring of Keamy and co., and relationship with Desmond, are all signs that he is not good. I was sort of hoping we'd find out that either Ben or Widmore was actually good, but I think it's clear that they're both power hungry and selfish and will go as far as to kill each other's daughters to get what they want.

Isn't it often the case in fiction when two people want something it ends up being destroyed in the end, so that no one can have it? Either that or Hurley rules the island for the rest of his days...

[moond...@aol.com]

"

Either that or Hurley rules the island for the rest of his days..."

this would rule.

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan D'Ippolito <mr.d...@gmail.com>
To: the-o...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 10:05 am
Subject: Re: The Death (not the life) of Jeremy Bentham

I had thought that maybe Widmore was the Slugworth (the seemingly evil competitor of Willie Wonka) of LOST, but as Bryan said his breaking his friend's neck and hiring of Keamy and co., and relationship with Desmond, are all signs that he is not good. I was sort of hoping we'd find out that either Ben or Widmore was actually good, but I think it's clear that they're both power hungry and selfish and will go as far as to kill each other's daughters to get what they want.

Isn't it often the case in fiction when two people want something it ends up being destroyed in the end, so that no one can have it? Either that or Hurley rules the island for the rest of his days...

On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 9:43 AM, <moond...@aol.com> wrote:

I also don't necessarily think Widmore is the good guy and Ben is the bad guy. Rather, I'd be willing to bet those two men are just out for themselves and the power they crave. The whole theme of people's quest for power and the negative consequences such pursuits can have on innocent people around them is something I could see the creators introducing (among many other themes mind u).

-----Original Message-----
From: David Coleman <davidco...@gmail.com>
To: the-o...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 9:37 am
Subject: Re: The Death (not the life) of Jeremy Bentham

One other idea.  Why did Richard Alpert save Ben's life on the island...  It's possible that Ben is good to some degree, but, as Charles Widmore said in the last episode, "I haven't tried to kill you yet".  So it seems that the mess of the "good/evil" fight is going to continue for the remainder of the series.

[heathaho]

I am thinking that it is possible that in order for Locke to be
"resurrected" upon return to the island, he can not kill himself.
Almost as in many a religious belief that upon committing suicide you
do not get into heaven sort of a deal.
This is why Ben had to kill him.
I'm not sure however, if Ben had planned to kill him before he got
there or not.
He did have all of the cleaning supplies and cleaned up quite nicely.
Although, I tend to think that it wasn't to evade the authorities, but
more so that Whidmore's guys wouldn't be able to trace him.
He did seem that he "turned" once he heard Locke mention Eloise
Hawking's name.
Either that set him off or he just decided he had all the info he
needed about Jin & Eloise and that he's just kill Locke.
But my theory is that Ben may have known that in order for Locke to
come back to life on the island, he couldn't kill himself....it had to
be non-suicidal.