The un-relationship of Harry and Ginny
Joel
when it comes to a romantic relationship with Ginny.
I'm inclined to believe he has just not yet connected the dots. From
chapter six we know he's aware of girls. His conversation with Ron
while flying doesn't hint at his interest being brotherly; he's quick
to put Ron in that role. He even internally comments that only Ginny
is allowed to touch him. If it's confusion or inexperience I can't see
the relationship staying platonic much longer than a year. Clueless as
he might be Harry's got an interested party aware of and willing to
help explain his emotions.
Thoughts, theories, or other possibilities?
Julie McCollum
--On 7/8/07, Joel <joel...@gmail.com> wrote:--
I'm curious as to what other think about the Harry's thought process
when it comes to a romantic relationship with Ginny.
I'll chime in, from the perspective of a mother of a just-turned-fourteen year old boy. :)
--Joel--
I'm inclined to believe he has just not yet connected the dots.
--Julie--
I'm inclined to agree with you, I think. Thirteen is just about when boys start getting interested in girls (in general, of course, since it happens earlier with some kids, and later with others). Again in general, girls usually start just a bit earlier. So it's totally realistic for Ginny to know what she's feeling, and for Harry to be not so enthusiastic about it. Yet. :)
So I think part of it is that he's a (somewhat) typical teenage boy. He's just beginning his journey into sexuality and relationships, but he'll catch a clue eventually.
But I think we also have to consider that Harry also has other issues when it comes to relationships. He doesn't have any role models at all in that area. His parents -- the people he'd usually watch and learn from -- are dead, and his aunt and uncle.... *shudder* (I have a very, very low opinion of the Dursleys. :D). Anyway, Harry really didn't get to see any normal family dynamics until he spent time with the Weasleys, and he was 12 when that happened. Heck, even in canon, he received the first hug he remembers from Molly Weasley, and he was fourteen and had just lived through an incredible ordeal. So he doesn't know anything about how relationships should go. I don't think he knows what love is, and it's hard to give it if you've never received it (not least because you can't recognize it yet).
So in my mind, he's going to be a bit slower with regards to relationships (any relationship), at least in canon. Soul Nexus Harry probably has a big leg up in this respect when you compare him to Canon!Harry, because SN!Harry has Ginny to guide him, and she knows love. The fact that Harry can feel what she's feeling for him might have interesting consequences when it comes to him recognizing his feelings for Ginny because he doesn't have the uncertainty that us normal people have--he already knows how she feels.
I'm interested to see if we meet Cho later on in the story, and what he'll feel for her if we do, and if Ginny goes out with Michael and/or Dean, how Harry will react when he finds out how she's feeling about them.
Hopefully that all made some semblance of sense. It's been a long weekend with sick kids and not enough sleep, so I can't guarantee that it will.
~Julie
--
If you haven't got any charity in your heart, you have the worst kind of heart trouble.
~Bob Hope
lapenaloca
honestly don't see how Jade could pull either Michael or Cho into
this, and Dean even less so. Two things we've seen in canon: Harry is
clueless but he is not cruel, on the contrary; Harry is very
possessive of what he has and loves/wants - a reflection of the fact
that he never had anything he wanted through his childhood, so now if
he can get something he really wants, he gets really possessive about
it, even his breaking up with Ginny is a reflection of the same thing.
So I think we could probably see Harry taking Ginny to the Yule Ball
as a natural prograssion of things (he still has a year to get there,
and Ginny will work on him), and then we could see some Michael action
and Harry would probably blow in a fit of gelousy (blow - outwardly or
inwardly, but Ginny would know). Plus, do not forget of Ginny's "get
over Harry" project (or was it "give up on Harry"?). Whatever, now
that she has a fighting chance, I don't see her (red haired, littlest
of seven siblings, hot tempered Ginny) give up on Harry any time soon.
So, no, we will most probably see a nice natural progression heading
to some very interesting tmies in Harry's year four. Harry's in for
some growing up and honestly, I'd rather see them taking this year to
get things rolilng in their relationship and see the focus move from
"Harry vs. Ginny, ingnoring the rest of the world" to "Harry and Ginny
vs. the rest of the world" if you get my meaning.
Oh, yeah, I owe Jade a followup to that review I left a while back on
his livejournal regarding Dumblebee. Jade, as I said before, canonD is
just too hard to understand. He might have his reasons but he surely
doesn't share them with Harry (and therefore us). So you picked your
own Bulmblebee, go with it. I liked him and he is just the good mix of
goodness and strangeness to keep us guessing. Anyway, as you can see I
don't particularyly like him as he is in canon, so if you ever feel
like doing some D bashing please feel free. I'd rather see Harry
getting Remus and Sirius in his corner from the adults (and maybe
Tonks) than Bumbledunk.
To many long chapters!
Jade
figure out a lot about him in Deathly Hollows, but seeing as I'm not
special enough to get an advance copy, we'll have to wait and see. To
be quite honest, I'm glad he's confusing because that's exactly what I
wanted to do - canon!Dumbledore as well as my!Dumbledore are both
about information, and getting it rather than giving it.
Some very insightful comments on the romantic side of Harry/Ginny. It
seems like there's a general agreement that year four will be very
interesting, and it's one I happen to agree with. A couple things I'm
having to think about as I write this story are the fact that Neville
took Ginny to the Yule ball (why and how that came about), as well as
Ginny's reasons for dating Corner. I'm not saying anything about the
future plot of Soul Nexus, but Ginny's future relationships are an
important part of her psychology about Harry now.
wotsfreek
Jade
is sweet and caring, and Ginny isn't a girl to miss that, so she might
have (in Canon) gone with him because she knew he would be a good date
as well. She certainly wouldn't have gone with Malfoy just to go.
wotsfreek
than not going at all"
Julie McCollum
> I always thought it was more like her thinking "Well Neville is better
> than not going at all"
No, seriously, she might've thought that, because we know that she really wanted to go with Harry instead. But I agree that she wouldn't have gone with, say, Malfoy or Crabbe or Goyle, just to go to the ball. Neville's a sweet, nice guy, and she could certainly have done worse for her first date (well, as long as you ignore the fact that he trod on her feet all night long :P).
And honestly, I don't have a problem with her thinking that. She was 13 at the time, and at that age, no matter how grown up you think you are, you really aren't ready for a serious relationship. It's a very normal teenage girl thing to do, to want to dress up and go to a dance.
I think that it says a lot about Ginny's character and maturity that, when she had the chance to go with "the boy of her dreams," she stuck with Neville and honored her commitment.
The other thing to consider is that I think Canon!Ginny *needed* to go out with Neville (even if it was just one date) and Michael and Dean, if only to show her that she really does care for Harry, and that those other boys weren't who she really wanted or needed. One of my pet peeves is the people who say that Ginny is a slut because she went out with *gasp* three whole boys before she went out with Harry (not saying that any of y'all are saying that, btw). I'm sorry, but that's just being a normal teenage girl.
This conversation is making my head spin, trying to consider all of the ramifications of the bond on what happens in later years. It'll be an interesting ride, I think, and I can't wait to see what happens.
Jade
Anyway, I do agree on some level that she was going with Neville just
to go, but as thirteen year old Ginny coming off of her crush on
Harry, she might have thought about Neville as the safe boy that's not
going to take advantage of her, like some of the other boys might
have. I also think it says a lot about Ginny's intelligence (as well
as her character) to go with Neville when she could have gone with
Harry - she realized that the only reason Harry was going to be her
date was because he needed one, not because he actually wanted to go
with her. It actually could have been a huge disaster, if Ginny had
gotten treated like Parvati. I actually felt bad for the Patil twins
after the dance, because their night was ruined even before it got
started.
I think Ginny is portrayed as a slag because of the manner that Harry
and Ron caught her with Dean during her fifth year - for some reason,
a lot of the Harry Potter fans think that because they're devoted to a
ship, their favorite characters have to be together for life and never
be with anyone else. I think it shows a lot of immaturity (or perhaps
just youth) on the fans' part for calling Ginny out for snogging boys
in a broom closet - just because she gets more action than Harry and
Ron doesn't mean she's loose - it just means that Harry and Ron have
too many things on their minds to be worrying about girlfriends.
lapenaloca
more things. One from outside the potterverse and one from inside.
>From the outside: From what little of Jo's interviews and such I've
read, Ginny has been created from the very begining to pair with
Harry. Couple that with the prophecy, love as the power he knows not,
and (couple weeks before DH comes out) it seems Harry's love in
general and first and foremost his love for Ginny will be the way to
vanquish Tom. So looking in from the outside, eventually you have to
get them to that point. Now, how was that saying... never been able to
remember the actuakl words, sounds llike one of those tongue
twisters... if it were to be done, it'd be better be done quickly...
no, I'm sure it sounded a lot more twisted than this (damn that
Shakespeare bloke!), but you get the drift. Plus, while I know there's
a lot of people out there who do not agree, fluff is still a lot more
fun than angst. Point is, Ginny may be considered in a way a child of
the prophecy as much as Harry.
>From the inside, I would start by throwing in my two cents on this
"slut" thing...and why would some readers label her that way. Well, I
don't know about you, but when I was about 13 or 14, all the hot girls
in my class had boyfriends one or two years older than them and us,
and us (myself and my friends of the same age) didn't have girlfriends
and we were actually only starting to discover the whole issue. That
didn't stop us from throwing some quite disparaging words at the
girls, words born out of jealousy I guess - somewhere inside we knew
we wanted them for ourselves and we didn't have them... not that we
would have known what to do with them anyway. Now this was some years
back, so maybe the world have changed since then, but again, maybe
not. Anyway we acted quite a bit the way Ron is acting with the whole
Vicky thing. So I guess the same thing is happening here, some people
need to grow up a bit.
Beside that, going back to the issue, I cannot accept that the only
way this "bond" affects Harry and Ginny is that they have an extra way
of communication. You did not describe it this way. They feel each
other emotions and more, even if thay (mainly Harry) don't know to
understand them yet. Once Ginny fully conquers her own mind, and they
will both get confortable in each other minds, that will bring trust -
they will trust each other. Not because they couldn't lie to each
other, but they will understand each other deeply. This is how I
understand what you described the link between them. And trust/
understanding is the foundation of it all. I've read recently two
things that apply in an interesting way here: 1. The way love is
described in "meaning of one, part one - philosopher 's stone" (over
at siye). I think it is chapter 12 or something, were Arthur explains
love (and marriage) to Ginny and Harry. It's worth reading the whole
thing; 2. the latest chapter in "Facing Danger" (over at
fanficauthors.net, or ffnet), the way Harry and Ginny get together -
yes, it is year 5, and Harry has a lot more people around, and anyway,
that series of fics has a completely diferrent background, but still,
it is remarkable how Harry avoids dating Cho and starts dating Ginny.
Again, the whole thing is good. Good, another tangent...
Point is, I don't see how Harry could get that close to Ginny (much
closer that anything we have ever experienced in our relations) and
stay at "best frieds" stage with her at the ripe age of 14 (when
everybody seems to agree the big action will take place). Oh, it is
your fic and you can write it any way you like, but some ways are just
more believable than others.
Again one more thing to say is that year 4 will be the year of
triwizard fiasco. On one hand, Harry will have a lot on his mind. On
another, he will need Ginny a lot during that year. And who will be
his most precious treasure?
In closing, get the growing thing done this year and let them face the
big and bad world together in year 4 and beyond. After all, the way I
see the canon, years 1-3 are sort of childhood years for harry, from
year 4 onward he's no longer allowed and childlishness, and those
years are his "maturing years". If you prefer, books 1-3 are chldren
books, while from book 4 they are youth books.
I'm going to sleep. If you feel like I'm rambling, you're right, is
2AM...
Jade
way Jo did it was pretty bad. I mean, she seems like a flat character
to me and she isn't really developed in any real sense until she's
needed - look at what happened in the second book. She appeared when
she was needed, and she disappeared right after that when she wasn't.
Then for two books, she's mostly ignored (except for the Yule Ball,
but that was only a passing reference), and it takes until the end of
OotP for her to really make an impact. I know that she's embarrassed
to be around Harry, but she was supposed to be getting over that, and
the absence of her characterization really hurts the overall
believability and foundation of her and Harry's relationship. I think
a lot more could have been done to bring the two together, even with
the books as long as they were. Ginny just kinda feels like a plot
device to me at the moment.
I agree a lot with your assessment of the 13/14 year old mentality,
though I don't agree with calling Ginny as slut. I mean, she had two
boyfriends before Harry and there's nothing to say that she can't snog
them all she wants in the hallways - she doesn't just exist to give
Harry a power boost against Tom. People criticize her for just being
who she is - she's an outgoing girl who apparently is very pretty, so
it's only natural for her to be getting up to things like that with
boys, especially ones older than her like Dean. I'm trying to do the
same thing and remember what it was like when I was that age when I'm
writing Harry's feelings (I'm a guy, so I can't pretend to know what
goes through the female mind), but there are so many variables it's
hard to tell how he should react in a romantic sense to Ginny's
attraction.
You make a very good point about Ginny conquering her own mind -
people have asked the question "Why doesn't Ginny recognize Harry's
feelings, even if he doesn't?" Well, she's got a few more things to
worry about, and she doesn't have the same connection to herself that
Harry does. I wrote it so that Harry is the one poking around inside
of his own head and understanding things on a technical level, while
Ginny is just coasting on emotion and trying to get through things by
ignoring them. The scene where Ginny confronts her own basilisk was
important not only for Ginny getting access to her own mind, but for
freeing her up to relate to Harry in a more personal way. I'm actually
in the process of reading the Dangerverse, and I'm only in year 3 so I
won't comment on it, but I have read the Meaning of One series and I
think the way Sovran writes it approaches brilliance. I'll have to go
back and read the part you're talking about as it's been a while, but
I agree with trust and understanding being the foundation of stable
relationships and it's something that SN!Harry and SN!Ginny will
always have in greater quantities than their peers.
I have a lot planned for Year 4, and I don't want to give it away, but
I did come across something funny while thinking about it. I'd never
write this in a serious story, but I did imagine Ginny getting taken
by the mer-people and Harry being so angry that he just walks into the
lake, yells a summoning spell, and thirty seconds later Ginny shoots
out of the water like a torpedo. (The thought was inspired by Ron's
comment about the mer-people just chucking back whatever they took)
They do have a lot of growing to do in Year 3, and it's not going to
be just in their relationship. Again, I don't want to give away the
plot, but my AU is going to start spiraling away from canon as time
passes.
The only thing I can say for sure about the Harry/Ginny situation is
that they eventually wind up together - the story is on SIYE, so I
think we can all figure that one out. =P
lapenaloca
mentatlity was that I don't agree with the slut thing either, so we're
on the same page here - just to make sure everything is crystal clear.
One more thing, I used both the Dangerverse (I've just read that
chappie earlier that day so it was fresh in my mind) and MOO as
examples to underline the idea that relationships are like castles,
built on stone or sand... In relation with your fic,I wanted to say
two things, I am not sure I got through clearly (it was 2AM...): one,
they must be best friends first, then the romantic part can kick in
(build the castle on stone), and with the link/bond they share,
whatever you call it, it is impossible for them not to become so,
because they will get to trust each other above all others. So they
mght get to snog around a (tiny :-) ) bit - or not - but they will get
to share what makes the very strongest frienship , and that's more
important. Plus, I don't see a lot of snogging on the side for either
of them. I think Harry would burst with gelousy the first time Ginny
would get "serious" with another boy, ad their link would make Ginny
know, and that might be his wake up call. Well, you can always design
it some other way, but this is one (believable) way I can see working
in the environment of you fic Two, it seems to me you apply common
reason to uncommon situations. I mean, all this discution about
regular 13/14 olds and such. However, neither Ginny nor Harry are
regular guys, and part of the fun of your story is to see how they
react to their uncommon situation. I mean, the bond forces them to
react diferrently to things, otherways what's this bond anyway?
Another story you might want to read is _kb_'s Choices (over at siye
again). I adminre _kb_ and all her fics a lot, and Choices is her
best. Definitely not the same depth you seem to try to achieve here,
but great nonetheless. Anyway, there's some kind of bond there as
well, created in kind of the same situation (extreme hardship pushes
something to the surface, the same way I understand the SN!bond to
have been created). Anyway, further down the line of the story, they
want to get married when Ginny's only 16, and get into quite the
argument with Molly. One othe things we see there is how the bond
pushes/forces/whatever-you-want-to-call-it them together.
Well, here my last effort into the great task of turning you to nicer
Harry/Ginny fluff :-)... Just kidding! This is your fic, and you do
with it whatever you want. I definitely like what you have until now.
Jade
terms of H/G. The events of Chapter Eight that lead into Nine will
create some (not a lot, but some) movement on this front, so hopefully
you'll really believe that this is H/G and not some surprise Harry/Cho
fic. xD I know it's a little annoying to read an obvious H/G fic where
there isn't any H/G in it yet, but bear with me, we'll get there.
Julie McCollum
Green Eyed Devil
(evan if it is in quite a unique way) i was looking at least a whol
year befor harry begain to come arounfd to evan consder seeing ginny
as a girlfrend & i would rather have a story that develops there frend
ship & then more over years rather than them professing there undying
love for each other over a couple of years.
I notice in earler post there were other stories being reconmended
personally i would check out Echos of powere a totally nuts harry &
ginny story by moshpit & it on chapter 26 after 14 days of school so
it defenatly got the detail in it as well.
Jade
see Ginny's reasons behind her actions (i.e., what happened to her to
make her want to learn to defend herself so bad), and I'm very
skeptical about repentant!Voldemort, but if nothing else, it's very
well written.
Well, maybe I phrased this wrong, because I said there would be
progress, but I didn't say they were getting together. You know Harry
is much too complicated for something to happen and then suddenly he
realizes that he belongs with Ginny - I just meant that there's going
to be some progress towards it, and it will come up briefly in one of
their discussions.
Enchanted
my two Knuts to this already lively exchange.
I will begin by saying that there are few stories that can be
considered distinctly unique. Not only does an author have to surpass
the quality of cannon from which they are inspired, but the
exceptional body of work that exists in this particular fandom. I
would venture to guess that the Harry Potter series garners more
fanficiton stories than any other piece of fiction that is currently
in print. Therefore to say that your story in unique, utilizing the
bond/relationship theme that has been done so well by so many HP
authors, is high praise indeed.
There are a plethora of bond stories from the mediocre to the
masterful. Among those worthy of honorable mention are Sovran's
Meaning of One and Intormit's Fates Debt. While their Harry and Ginny
embrace the bond relationship immediately, your characters,
particularly Harry's, are leery of the bond, frightened even. It does
not diminish the value of either interpretation, it is simply a unique
perspective.
Your Harry is emotionally damaged, evidenced by his push/pull
reactions in regards to his feelings for Ginny and the bond. It is an
"incipient schizophrenia", it confuses, disturbs and angers Ginny. He
desires the bond on some level - it comforts him, shelters him, even
gives him a sense of belonging and perhaps a sense of proprietorship.
All of which serve to terrify and confuse him. When these conflicting
emotions begin to war within him and add to that Ginny's own emotions
raging inside him, you have the Harry that pushes by ignoring the bond
completely, or who deliberately ignores the hurt he is inflicting.
Then there is the Harry that pulls Ginny in, the Harry who experiences
a subdued longing for her, the Harry that feels a strong need to
protect her from harm, a Harry that seeks out the warming comfort of
her presence.
All so painfully detailed and cataloged for the reader to examine and
ponder. It confounds, irritates, intrigues and angers me. Yes, it
engenders all the same conflicting emotions that your characterization
of Harry embodies. That means your doing your job as an author. You
are producing the responses from your readers that I expect you are
soliciting.
If I miss my guess, you have quite a bit of emotional conflict
awaiting us in fourth year, I both fear and anticipate the road you
are taking us down. Given your interpretation of the bond and your
previous story, I've a feeling quite a bit of hormonal teenage drama
will be taking place. But then again I could be wrong, it wouldn't be
the first time and I doubt it will be the last.
I think I've passed my two Knuts and reached a Galleon, please forgive
my long winded discourse.
I will of course eagerly await your next update. May you enjoy the
journey and gain friends along the way.
Happy Writing
Enchanted
*"An Incipient Schizophrenia" - Chapter Title from the David Leeming
Biography of James Baldwin
That title has always stuck in my head, I even used it as the title of
my essay for a paper I wrote in my Creative Writing class in my one
and only semester in college. The professor was very adamant
regarding the importance of referencing our sources. So this is for
you Professor Waller.
wotsfreek
that "little" praise was like a work of art.
Enchanted
Why thank you, that's very kind of you say.
The last chapter was rather brilliant wasn't it?
Happy Reading
Enchanted
wotsfreek
twist at the end.
Jade
Naw...I love hearing that people like my work, but I always have this
absurd notion that every chapter sucks right after I finish writing
it, cause I'd hate to not live up to people's standards.
mike's wou account
and Ginny"?
"The thing about growing up with Fred and George is that you sort of start
thinking anything's possible if you've got enough nerve." - Ginny Weasley
thanks
mike
msn: jessa...@hotmail.com
e-mail: mbabc...@wou.edu
Jade
and Ginny's romantic relationship, except that we can't call it that
yet because they aren't involved. The story is posted on SIYE so we
all know the outcome, but it's a long way in getting there and a lot
of things still have to fall into place before they start the long
path of spending their lives together.
This thread could also be named "How long can Harry be stupid about
his feelings?" xD
mike's wou account
"The thing about growing up with Fred and George is that you sort of start
thinking anything's possible if you've got enough nerve." - Ginny Weasley
thanks
mike
msn: jessa...@hotmail.com
e-mail: mbabc...@wou.edu
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jade" <jades...@gmail.com>
To: "The Leaky Pensieve" <the-leaky...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: The un-relationship of Harry and Ginny
>