the structure of an Open Sim grid?
Annabelle Fanshaw
understand how my grid actually interconnects with all its parts, and
how various programs reach into those parts. Does anyone know if there
is a diagram that shows how Open Sim sits on a server- where FTP
reaches into it, how and what the command prompt sees when you are
looking at the grid through ROBUST, and then through the individual
region command windows? On a dedicated server, is it just one really
big sim that has been subdivided into 16 regions, or is it actually 16
separate instances of the program running simultaneously? and finally,
how does filezilla relate to all of this? yikes, lots of questions I
know- but would love for some sort of sense of how this is
structured. Thank you- for any and all info.
ChimeraCosmos
Graham Mills
In the early days of SL, the place was awash with cartographers but now, just when they're needed, <poof>.
Graham Mills
The argument so far for calling it a “bug” seems to have been this: “well, if this is the basis for the 3D web, then clearly there will be more than 16 million regions, just like there are more than 16 million web servers.” True. But not on the same map! Not under the same authority! Seeing the map as one single shared space between all virtual worlds is just… wrong! The map is a grid resource; different virtual worlds should have their own maps. They should be able to have regions on the same coordinates — region placement should not require global coordination. Sure, there are interesting things that one can do with shared maps, but in my view of things, the starting point for interoperability is 1 grid = 1 map. As opposed to all grids = 1 map.
(my emphasis in blue; original blog http://metaverseink.com/blog/?p=222#comment-1754 and further analysis http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/2011/06/hypergrid-inventor-calls-for-mass-grid-migration/ )
ChimeraCosmos
ChimeraCosmos
ChimeraCosmos
Graham Mills
ChimeraCosmos
ChimeraCosmos
Justin Clark-Casey
On a standalone, everything runs in one process (OpenSim.exe) though in different threads (e.g. one for scene update,
one per scene for processing incoming udp messages, etc.)
--
Justin Clark-Casey (justincc)
http://justincc.org/blog
http://twitter.com/justincc
Graham Mills
That said, I am interested in increasing the visibility of the OpenSim edu community and have been playing around with, for example, constructing trails to facilitate exploration.
http://opensim-trails.tiddlyspace.com/
though I don't think I've nailed it and, of course, there are several other systems/gates/search engines. Being able to annotate builds/regions using the schema.org approach would be interesting.
Anyway, more to the point, I interpret the hypergrid address as
server_url:region:name/x/y/z
where name is optional. x/y/z in this case default to something like 128/128/25 if omitted and are in sim coordinates (in metres). If you follow Diva's interpretation, that's a unique address.
As others, especially Maria, have implied in comments to the two recent aforementioned articles, problems of regions occupying the same x/y/z are presumably due to the viewer.
I'm too much of a n00b to understand the meta-grid aspects beyond noting that you do get additional coordinates if you check Help|About in Imprudence.
Jeff has some diagrams here:
http://www.constructeurs-scripteurs.org/doku.php?id=notices:hyper_gateways
Diva has a draft paper here:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/18483217/hypergrid-draft.pdf
When we get it straight, we should probably edit this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperlinks_in_virtual_worlds#Hypergrid_in_OpenSim
Graham Mills
The first teleport between grids was conducted in 2009 by avatar Whump Linden (?) between regions in Second Life and the OpenSim grid OSgrid. In 2010 Linden Lab, the operators of Second Life, announced the suspension of work on interoperability.
Subsequently in 2010 Prof Crista Lopes (UC Irvine) developed a protocol for teleporting between regions on different OpenSim grids that formed the basis of a Hypergrid. This presupposed that avatars had a home grid that was the primary host for their avatar and possessions in the form of inventory. An important feature was the preservation of avatar and inventory during teleporting. This, however, raised issues of illegal copying by avatars of content from destination sims and by destination sim owners from avatar inventory. Accordingly some commercial grids opted not to allow Hypergrid use. The Hypergrid protocol was also augmented with a suitcase intended to better protect avatars possessions on remote grids. With improvements in protection of intellectual property in more recent OpenSim and Hypergrid releases, it is expected that commercial grids will adopt a restricted form of the Hypergrid protocol.
Most OpenSim viewers are largely based on the open source Second Life viewer code. The Second Life grid map is not designed to support more than 4096 regions in either direction. However, as some OpenSim grids decided to ignore these limits, teleports fail from the current location to any region beyond this limit in either dimension. Accordingly, long distance teleports involve the use of intermediate waystations and a number of these have been established solely to facilitate passage. Note that OpenSim grid maps are unique to each grid although jumps between grids must respect the 4096 region limit according to the positions of the start and endpoint on each grid.
Teleports may be initiated using a range of scripted inworld objects (so-called Hypergates and signposts, for example). Alternatively, many OpenSim clients support the secondlife: protocol. The avatar chats an address and then clicks on a hyperlink in the chat history window to make the teleport. Addresses are of the form:
secondlife://server_url:region_number:region_name/x/y/z
in which region_name is optional. The coordinates /x/y/z which represent the location in the respective dimensions in metres (regions are 256 x 256 metres) are also optional. Their omission will deposit the avatar at ground level in the middle of the region. Note that the address will not function as a hyperlink unless terminated with a forward slash.
In 2011 Prof Lopes further extended the Hypergrid protocol to support instant messaging, friending, teleport offers (lures), shared editing and other good stuff between avatars with different home grids.
(some more inter-op stuff or links threreto)
Robert A. Knop Jr.
> The first teleport between grids was conducted in 2009 by avatar Whump
> Linden (?) between regions in Second Life and the OpenSim grid OSgrid. In
> 2010 Linden Lab, the operators of Second Life, announced the suspension of
> work on interoperability.
That's actually late 2008 when the first teleport happened. I remember
that time-- it was exciting. I was Prospero Linden at the time, and
although I wasn't there for the first teleport, I did jump in and hop
about between aditi (the SL Beta Grid) and some OpenSim regions. I
don't know if it was Whump who did the first teleport, but he was the
one (or at least one of the ones) leading the project. I believe that
Tess and Leyla were also heavily involved in it, and a lot of the
groundwork behind all of it came from Zero. You may recall that for a
while around that time Zero used to hold office hours, and the
occasional large gathering, discussing the issues of grid
interoperability.
You have never been able to teleport from the main SL grid (agni) to
other grids. The grid interop code was only ever publicly deployed on
the beta grid.
Sadly, it was early 2009 when Linden realy pulled back on working on
interoperability. The first push was deployed, based on the result of
Linden and OpenSim people working together. Thereafer, Whump maintained
the interop regions on aditi. (I remember this, because at the time I
was server release manager. Every so often, deploying test releases to
the beta grid, I would screw up something whump was working on.)
However, a lot of the people who were working on it were pulled off of
it to work on other things. A number of them were sent over to work on
the SL Enterprise project (at the time called "nebraska" internally).
At the time, I thought that was a HUGE mistake. To me, the SL
Enterprise project compared to grid interoperability was like betting on
the old Novel Networks software in the face of the existence of the
Internet. (I was also personally annoyed because the release team had
various things we were trying to accomplish, and SL Enterprise sucked
away not only my supervisor whom I had a great working relationship
with, but also another release engineer we needed to get release stuff
done.) However, it was easier for marketing and business types to
imagine how to monetize SL Enterprise than interoperability, so that's
where Linden went.
By the time I was fired (May 2009), I believe that Zero and Infinity
were really the only two doing any work at all on interoperability, and
Zero had a lot of other things he had to think about. Infinity left
before the Lindenmageddon layoffs of 2010, and Zero left as part of
those layoffs. Shortly after that was when Linden announced that they
were formally pulling out of the OGP process (where OGP was "open grid
protocol"). However, OGP was still mostly at the stage of design
discussions, whereas at that time Hypergrid was growing and being
experimented with openly. Infinity will probably disagree with me on
this, but I believe that to most outside observers it was pretty clear
by then that Hypergrid was the way things were going, not OGP. Even
though Linden *formally* was involved in grid interoperability,
practically speaking they basically gave up on it in 2009 almost
immediately after the first demonstration that something like it was
possible. (It is this decision on their part that makes me fairly
confident that they won't be around, at least as a real virtual world
company, 10 years from now. The future of Linden Lab is the present of
Compuserve.)
> This, however, raised issues of illegal copying by avatars of
> content from destination sims and by destination sim owners from avatar
> inventory. Accordingly some commercial grids opted not to allow Hypergrid
> use.
This paranoia is part of what, I think, led Linden to slow way down on
interoperability. As it started happening, lots of the more paranoid
content creators on SL started making noise about making sure their
stuff stayed on the SL grid. So, lots of folks at LL started worrying
about doing futher experiments before they'd figured out how to get all
of the DRM right. (I suspect it's the same considerations, coupled with
advice from laywers (and listening to lawyers about your potential
liability is one of best way to slow down your ability to do anythingi
nteresting) that led Linden to decide that only people they could track
would be allowed to use the new mesh capabilities on SL. Which, of
course, will be another reason for many creative people and educators to
want to migrate to OpenSim.)
I cannot tell you how glad I am that the people who developed the
Internet and the Web didn't have to deal with this kind of paranoia. We
wouldn't have the wonderful world of global network that we have today
if those considerations had been ground in from the beginning. And,
truthfully, a lot of it IS paranoia. Yes, people are going to copy your
stuff illegally. It is GOING to happen. But, please, let us not let
worrying about that completely ossify virtual worlds in their present
state, and stop us from being able to experiment and grow. In the short
term, the things that are done to "protect content" end up being
barriers for legitimate purchasers as well as creators, and those
barriers hurt MORE than any piracy they stop. This is true with DRM
anywhere, and with what goes on in virtual worlds. All of the content
creators who wanted to make sure their stuff stayed in SL contributed to
SL not being part of the coming global metaverse. If we all listen to
the paranoia too much, we may never get a global metaverse, at least not
one that anybody can do anything in without some sort of copyright
authority approving every single act of creation. That's not a world
with freedom of expression, and that's not the world we want. In the
long run, creators benefit more from having a better and wider world in
which to share or sell their creations than they do from strict controls
that reduce copyright violations but fatally stunt the growth of that
world and the abillity of creators to express.
--
--Rob Knop
E-mail: rk...@pobox.com
Home Page: http://www.pobox.com/~rknop/
Blog: http://scientopia.org/blogs/galacticinteractions/
Graham Mills
I think almost all the dates are wrong by a year -- I wrote this pretty much off the top of my head as a therapeutic break from grading so it needs some serious fact-checking and polish. I'll have a further look at it when I need more therapy unless someone else wants a go in which case I'll pop it on gDocs.
Cider Jack
to comment on if I may:
I wish everyone who is paranoid about content copying could read your
last paragraph. Very, very well stated. I would like to add that even
though as you say, "Yes, people are going to copy your stuff
illegally. It is GOING to happen" that it is not any less likely to
happen on the SL grid (or other walled gardens) than it is on any
OpenSim grid. Also those who participate in such unethical behavior,
even for presumably noble ends, are treading a slippery slope and
should not be tolerated. Just because something is possible doesn't
make it right. The end does not necessarily justify the means.
The other thing: "Linden to decide that only people they could track
would be allowed to use the new mesh capabilities on SL" -- is there a
blog or somewhere where I can find out more about this? Sounds...
incredible.
Overall, Rob, thanks for that nice concise overview of LL's position
in Hypergrid history. It confirms many of my observations as an end
user as well.
Cheers,
~!CJ
Clare Atkins
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John "Pathfinder" Lester
requirement affects teachers and students.
"Class, today we'll be working with mesh in SL. Everyone, please take
out your credit card and type this info in..."
:P
Speaking of mesh, I am constantly amazed when I look at the bigger
picture. There's a huge universe of content creators and businesses
selling 3d mesh content that completely dwarfs SL in terms of both
revenue and market size.
And what kind of DRM do successful mesh marketplace companies like
turbosquid use to "protect" their models for sale?
None.
-John
----------------------------
John Lester
Director, Community Development
ReactionGrid, Inc.
My Jibe Office: http://bit.ly/Jibe
http://about.me/pathfinder
+1 (617) 910 0386
“If you want to build a ship, don’t drum up the men to gather wood,
divide the work and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the
vast and endless sea.” -Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
John Waugh
those who participated. The first intergrid jump was done by Zha Ewry,
of IBM's Tarrytown, NY research facility, and she (actually he) arrived
at her destination without clothes or assets sometime in or before
October, 2008. I haven't looked through my blogs to find the date.
The jump by a group and there were pictures at the time arose out of a
process started by Zha Ewry through the Architeture Working Group
(http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies#Purpose) which met
regularly on IBM Island at Thornebridge Town. Zha is still in SL so you
could ask her the date. There are a number of other links to the first
jump and how it came about as well.
cheers John Waugh
John Waugh
Layla Linden and Tess Linden, June 05, 2008. Here is the link.
http://zhaewry.wordpress.com/2008/06/05/happy-jumpy-ruths-interop-takes-a-step/
cheers John Waugh
Robert A. Knop Jr.
> Speaking of mesh, I am constantly amazed when I look at the bigger
> picture. There's a huge universe of content creators and businesses
> selling 3d mesh content that completely dwarfs SL in terms of both
> revenue and market size.
>
> And what kind of DRM do successful mesh marketplace companies like
> turbosquid use to "protect" their models for sale?
One only has to read the comments on the blog posts about this LL
policy, though, to see some of the content creators lauding it and
defending it. The paranoia is out there, and people really believe that
they need this kind of stuff.
The comment that offended me the most was Gwenneth Lewellyn's. She said
taht mesh is for professionals, not amateurs, period. This is an
incredibly elitist attitude. It says that, all you unwashed proles out
there who might want to experiment with mesh, all you students who are
in SL trying to experiment with mesh, you're not wanted. We need to
track you if you're going to do this kind of thing in order to make
the elite business owners and content creators feel better about
themselves. Never mind that many of those people probably would never
have made it there in the first place if they didn't have the freedom to
experiment before they had to start ponying up with credit cards....
-Rob
John "Pathfinder" Lester
AC3D (http://www.inivis.com) and find it very easy to learn and use
effectively. It even has the ability to export sculpted prims for SL.
As a mesh beginner myself, I highly recommend it.
-John
----------------------------
John Lester
Director, Community Development
ReactionGrid, Inc.
My Jibe Office: http://bit.ly/Jibe
http://about.me/pathfinder
+1 (617) 910 0386
“If you want to build a ship, don’t drum up the men to gather wood,
divide the work and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the
vast and endless sea.” -Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
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ChimeraCosmos
Graham Mills
Kyle G
Kyle G
CEO ReactionGrid Inc.
http://reactiongrid.com
http://jibemix.com
407 992 8284
John "Pathfinder" Lester
SL sculpts and the newer Mesh objects (in AC3D and/or in general)?
Does the AC3D interface look the same and is the creation process for
mesh objects the same, or different?"
Long discussion about mesh vs sculpts here:
http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Question-what-is-the-difference-between-the-new-meshes-and-the/td-p/391900
The AC3D interface looks the same no matter what format you're
creating. When you're done making your model, you have the option to
save it as one of a number of different 3d model formats.
-John
----------------------------
John Lester
Director, Community Development
ReactionGrid, Inc.
My Jibe Office: http://bit.ly/Jibe
http://about.me/pathfinder
+1 (617) 910 0386
“If you want to build a ship, don’t drum up the men to gather wood,
divide the work and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the
vast and endless sea.” -Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
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Dharma
Looks like LL has just made itself irrelevant, but the DRM issue is
likely to
Balkanize the Metaverse.
I've been saying for decades that the next Revolution will be over
Copyright and IP.
It's just a matter of time.
For fun and games and a little historical perspective read this:
A SPEECH DELIVERED IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS
ON THE 5TH OF FEBRUARY 1841
http://yarchive.net/macaulay/copyright.html
On Jun 9, 7:21 pm, Clare Atkins <clare.atk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> Great discussion!
> The information about mesh creators and their control by Linden was blogged
> about here by Tateru
Maria Trombly
Graham Mills
John Waugh
work.. What IBM's Zha Ewry and Tess Linden et al did was the first jump
between SL and OpenSim in June 2008. Zha is the first to admit that
despite staging a successful jaunt between grids that pathway
eventually turned out to be a dead end. To me while Zha's jaunt is
analogus to the Wright Brothers first flight all power to Crista for
successfuly inventing a practical way to making hypergridding available
to all ... within the OpenSim environment anyway. I quoted yourself
and WagnerAu as well as others in this article on June 8, 2009 on the
first "public" demonstration of hypergridding .
> http://slenz.wordpress.com/2009/06/08/the-slenz-update-%E2%80%93-no-95-june-8-2009/
Cheers John Waugh
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