uh oh.. center brace on 37G tank broke.. what now??? HELP!

[LM]

HI all,

well, I have a 37G All-Glass aquarium tank. (essentially a 29G but
taller). the dimension of the tank is 30x12x22...

I was just changing water now, and realized that the center brace of
the tank had snapped in half (plastic fatigue, no doubt).

now what do I do!? I'm now scared to put the water full, as I fill
the tank, I can see the two halves of the brace separating...

what are my options? how safe is it to leave it in the current
state? is it fixable? or do I have to get a new tank (I really don't
want to do this... tank is well-planted, UGF+canister. last time I
drained the tank to relocate it, I almost killed off all my fish due
to UGF toxins, I think. I don't even want to consider having to move
EVERYTHING over to a new tank!!!)

help!

linda

[Atom Weaver]

On Sep 29, 5:15 pm, LM <lindama...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> HI all,
>
> well, I have a 37G All-Glass aquarium tank.  (essentially a 29G but
> taller).  the dimension of the tank is 30x12x22...
>
> I was just changing water now, and realized that the center brace of
> the tank had snapped in half (plastic fatigue, no doubt).
>
> now what do I do!?  I'm now scared to put the water full, as I fill
> the tank, I can see the two halves of the brace separating...
>
> what are my options?  how safe is it to leave it in the current
> state?  

You should be OK in the short term (days), but you should address the
issue.

>is it fixable?  

Yes. You'll need to go to the hardware store, and get a small (twin)
tube of marine grade epoxy adhesive, and a strip of ABS plastic,
probably 1 inch by 10 inches long, preferably 3/16" or 1/4" thick.

Drop the water level about 6-10 inches. Unless the broken braces are
separated by more than 1/2 inch, I wouldn't bother to try to force
them any closer together. If the gap is more than 1/2 inch, you can
drop the water level lower to see if relieving the water pressure
allows them to get closer. Abrade the top surface of each half of the
broken brace with 150 grit sandpaper. Have your other hand underneath
the brace, holding a large wad of wet paper towels, to catch any
plastic dust that might fall. Even if some does get into the tank,
don't panic. Its ABS, and is non-toxic to fish, even if they happen
to swallow a bit of it. Abrade the 1x10 ABS strip on one side.
You'll want these nice and rough, to improve the adhesive bond.

Use the 2-part epoxy (this is a balancing act, you want enough epoxy
to wet both surfaces, but you don't want the excess to squeeze out and
drip in the tank) and apply it to the entire ABS strip. Position it
over the two broken brace pieces, so roughly half is over each brace.
Apply pressure with a binder clips, clamps, vise grips, or some such,
and leave it there for however long the adhesive says until full
strength of the adhesive bond is obtained. You might want that wet
paper towel underneath again, to catch any dripping epoxy. This is
fish-safe once cured, but not while its a liquid.

Important thing is to fully cover the face of the strip with adhesive.
You'll need as much bond surface area as possible, to distribute the
pressure load on that adhesive bond that will result when you refill
the tank. I have a 40 tall that I fixed in this fashion, and its
still leak free after two years.

> or do I have to get a new tank

Well, you NEED a new tank, but only because your current one is so
small... ;-)

AW

[Frank Bayne]

On Mon, 9/29/08, Atom Weaver <atomw...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: Yes.  You'll need to go to the hardware store, and get a small (twin) tube of marine grade epoxy adhesive, and a strip of ABS plastic, probably 1 inch by 10 inches long, preferably 3/16" or 1/4" thick.

I didn't think epoxy bonded to plastic very good. I have fixed them before using a 2" wide x 1/4" thick glass strip and siliconed it to the front and back glass just under the old brace. Regular plate glass is most commonly used in aquariums with a top center support, and will bow to much without the support, and will likely break. Rimless aquariums are made using a little thicker glass, to support the top from bowing to much. Thicker glass is also used when there is no center support across the top. My two 90 gal. tanks are commercial tanks built of 5/8" thick glass, and still have a 6" wide center top support. They were made of Starphire glass (low-iron glass) which provides a clearer view. Telling this because it's important for the owner to know that an all glass tank with a top center support is made as cheap as they can make it, out of the thinnest glass they can get away with. It's surprising how much glass will bow. Under pressure, the amount of the bow is greatly reduced over a short period of time. I would remove half the water until the tank is fixed...... Frank

[Boston]

you provided the tank measurments which is perfect
if you measure the thickness of the glass it will be easy to tell you
what kind of safety factor you have remaining
chances are your ok
but it always helps to crunch the numbers and see
on small tanks that center strut is far less important than on larger
ones
although you never know
just send an accurate measurement of the glass thickness and I can
tell you exactly what happened to the engineering on the tank

[LM]

the front and back glass seems to measure about 13/64" (hard to be
really accurate since I can't use a caliper... no real exposed edge of
glass. so this is using a thin engineering metallic ruler with 1/64
markings. I could try using the 1/100 scale, but then I would need a
magnifying glass to read the tick marks.. ). the side glass seems to
be a shade thinner.. may be ~11/64" (harder to measure through one
pane of glass and a glob of silicone. not sure how much distortion/
refraction I'm getting).

reducing water to 50% is hard, since that means I will have to shut
off the two UGF powerheads (sitting at about 1/5 height from the top
of the tank), and that will turn the UGF very toxic very quickly...
it has a canister, so as long as I can keep the UGF from going toxic,
biofiltering will be ok...

epoxy should bond to plastic if correct type is used, I think... I'm
not sure bonding glass to plastic would work, nor trying to bond glass
to glass using silicone given that it's "in use".. hard to make a
clear seal, not to mention how the heck am I going to get a piece of
polished glass that will fit perfectly, and keep it in place (I guess
I have those large clamps that we use for holding large woodworks in
place when gluing, etc).

right now I'm calling around many LFS for a replacement tank, "just in
case"...

I guess I better take the light fixure off to reduce the load on the
top of the tank...

linda

[Andy Gratton]

Ummmmmmmm  working from your  engineers ruler  that makes  the glass approx  6-7 mm thick  as for bonding plastics  you have to ensure that whatever is used  is going to be non-toxic  for the fish  allowing that  condensation will  drop back  into the tank  so anything nasty  could be introduced to the tank ,  Bonding with Silicone sealer  will work  so long as you are not trying to lay  new silicone over old  as it wont  stick  to itself  once cured,

If the brace bar is plastic have you tried  Superglue?  as for clamping  i would be very wary of over exerting any pressure on the glass. bungee cords might help , or possibly  some small rachet  tie downs, something like that  you can gauge when to stop  and being softish  wont scratch/damage glass.

jmo   

2008/9/30 LM <linda...@yahoo.com>

[LM]

Bungee cord won't work... you can't wrap it horizontally, because
that will make the tank bow more (pressure will be more towards
squeezing the short sides together, and not squeezing the long sides
together), and wrapping it vertically, not sure how much of a "clamp"
i can get since it will have to go through the tank stand..

i don't think superglue is stable over time... is it?

i was thinking when clamping, get some 1x4 wood planks and sandwich
that across the tops of the tank on the front/back glass panes, and
then clamping it over the wood. then (theoretically) the pressure
point should be distributed across the glass with main stress points
at the edge of the tanks (where the glass panes meet) if i do it
right... provided that I don't over-crank at the center that would
make the wood flare out too much... the clamps have rubber feet, and
it's racheted... so you can squeeze it as hard or as gently as you
want to... (its just huge.. so if I do use it, about 1ft of metal will
be sticking out in mid-air after it is clamped. dangerous!)

i found some extra tubings used for the UGF powerhead columns.. so I
cut it really short so i can lower the water level further. don't
want to stress those silicone seals too much either, until i figure
out what to do.. there was about 1/4" gap at the brace crack with
water about 90% full. now the water level is about 60%... the gap in
the brack crack didn't change a whole lot, so that gap may be its
neutral state, or close to it

or would the glass crack before the silicone seals breach/delaminate?

or would it be better to get an extra piece of plastic, drill holes in
them and screw the two sections of the brace to the new piece of
plastic, and also laminate them with silicone? or is drilling holes
in the brace plastic a bad idea? I guess it's kinda hard to drill a
hole through a plastic that isn't stationary (sort of hanging in the
air) without potentially further damaging it...

linda

On Sep 29, 9:07 pm, "Andy Gratton" <anglerfis...@googlemail.com>
wrote:

> Ummmmmmmm  working from your  engineers ruler  that makes  the glass approx
> 6-7 mm thick  as for bonding plastics  you have to ensure that whatever is
> used  is going to be non-toxic  for the fish  allowing that  condensation
> will  drop back  into the tank  so anything nasty  could be introduced to
> the tank ,  Bonding with Silicone sealer  will work  so long as you are not
> trying to lay  new silicone over old  as it wont  stick  to itself  once
> cured,
> If the brace bar is plastic have you tried  Superglue?  as for clamping  i
> would be very wary of over exerting any pressure on the glass. bungee cords
> might help , or possibly  some small rachet  tie downs, something like that
> you can gauge when to stop  and being softish  wont scratch/damage glass.
> jmo
>

> 2008/9/30 LM <lindama...@yahoo.com>

[LM]

BTW, where does one get ones hands on a particular size glass that
would fit perfectly inside a tank.. that is smoothed out so it's not a
hand-slicer risk?

is aquarium silicone strong enough to keep the glass brace just glued
on at the ends to the front and back panes? 2"x1/4" seems like a very
small cross section for the silicone to hold onto and not delaminate
with the water pressure pressing the glasses away...?

or did you silicone the glass all the way across under the original
brace, as well as the ends?

are aquarium silicones that strong?

linda

On Sep 29, 5:42 pm, Frank Bayne <frankr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>            I didn't think epoxy bonded to plastic very good. I have fixed them before using a 2" wide x 1/4" thick glass strip and siliconed it to the front and back glass just under the old brace. Regular plate glass is most commonly used in aquariums

> Frank

[Frank Bayne]

On Mon, 9/29/08, Andy Gratton <angler...@googlemail.com> wrote:   If the brace bar is plastic have you tried  Superglue?  as for clamping  i would be very wary of over exerting any pressure on the glass. bungee cords might help , or possibly  some small rachet  tie downs, something like that  you can gauge when to stop  and being softish  wont scratch/damage glass.

I don't think I ever saw a top center _structural_ support made out of plastic (that was there for holding the front and back glass from bowing). I remember some of the first 55 gal. tanks made had a black plastic frame that went around the bottom and top of the tank. The top frame had a plastic center support for the glass tops and lights that were sold for the tank, but had nothing to do with structural support. I'm thinking this tank was made the same way, a rimless glass tank with plastic trim. Without the plastic trim around the top of the tank, what/how would the plastic center support be bonded to the glass? I'm sure they didn't epoxy the plastic to the glass and expect it to be a structural bond. I have a 58 gal. tank - only 3' long, but about 6"s more than a 55 gal. tank from front to back and the same height as my 55 gal. tanks.They used 5/16" thick glass on it (1/16" thicker than the 1/4" glass used on my 55 gal. tanks) - has the plastic trim around the top and bottom, but has no top center support. Those new 55 gal. tanks I just bought when PetCo had their sale going on, have the black plastic trim, purely aesthetic. They are made out of 1/4" thick glass with a top center glass support............. Frank

[Andy Gratton]

Yes  Aquarium Silicone is pretty strong  that is what holds all the all glass tanks together,  as for  the glass  any good glass shop  will usually cut to size  for you  and bevel/grind  edges smooth for you,  ( well at least my local glass store does)

In attached pic  you can see a central brace  this is made of glass  and the tank was 4ft long, 18 inches high  15inches wide,  and dang heavy lol

2008/9/30 LM <linda...@yahoo.com>

[LM]

On Sep 29, 10:56 pm, Frank Bayne <frankr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I'm thinking this tank was made the same way, a rimless glass tank with plastic trim. Without the plastic trim around the top of the tank, what/how would the plastic center support be bonded to the glass? I'm sure they didn't epoxy the plastic to the glass and expect it to be a structural bond.

Don't know.. the plastic rim around the tank is silicone glued onto
the glass tank itself. the center brace is monolithic piece to the
plastic rim. So in effect, if it is indeed preventing the front and
back glass from bowing, the center brace is holding the plastic rim/
frame together, and since the rim is glued onto the glass, it
effectively holds the glass together.
the All-Glass site (now Aqueon or something) states that if the center
brace is removed, the tank warranty is void because it can compromise
the structural integrity... (or some wording of that nature).

May be it's also a function of the aspect ratio (22" high, 30"
length.. as opposed to the standard 12" or 18" height).. and it just
does tad better with a slight support.. It does hold the VersaTop
glass hood on the center brace, but not sure how much it actually
helps holding the hood up. the tank originally came with the big
plastic hood, and I don't think that even touched the center brace
when it was sitting on the rim...

I did make a call to All-Glass to find out how risky it is to keep the
tank with the broken brace.. haven't heard back from them.

eitehr way, with a 4.5yr old running around amok occasionally tapping
at the tank when I'm not looking, I want security and peace of mind
that I won't end up with a 37gal puddle on a carpeted floor with 15
dead fish lying in it!

I've seen Oceanic tanks about the same size that used much much
thicker glass and had no center brace. I remember looking at the
thickness of the glass and being astonished, as it looked like it was
using glass twice as thick! so it might be purely a function of how
thick a glass they used for the rimless tank, to decide whether the
center brace is needed or not.. and for All-Glass, I think they use
thin enough glass that even slight structural support up top makes a
big difference. but without calculations, I won't know (Boston, are
you calculating???)

If I knew what I know now when I started all this fishing thing, I
definitely would not have bought what I have now :-P hind sight is
20/15! (I would have gotten a tank that is 18" deep and not 12"... I
would have opted for Oceanic or other higher-quality tank than All-
Glass, I would not have put a UGF with pea-gravel and plants.. and on
and on and on....). sigh...

linda

[LM]

I think i've seen a glass shop around here.. may be i'll call around
and see how much they charge for things like this...

wow. 4ft! nice! we don't have enough space to put anything larger
than a 30" :-( but if I can put a glass brace it will be nicer.. the
plastic one was so flimsy, even as a support for lights and hood (if
that was the intention) wasn't doing too good a job.. the plastic has
discolored pretty badly, so not sure how strong or stable that thing
is even if I manage to bandage it together... I guess the CF emits
enough UV to deteriorate plastic more readily than normal fluorescent
lamps... (used the AH Supply 55W kit upgrade thing)

I guess I have to be careful so the silicone goo won't be too ugly
showing through under the rim if I go wit the new glass brace! been
looking under the rim pretty closely, and there is so much silicone
goo bulge from the rim to the glass, right near the center brace, i
may have to trim some of that excess off to get the new brace to sit
square with the tank glass..

linda

On Sep 29, 11:27 pm, "Andy Gratton" <anglerfis...@googlemail.com>
wrote:

[Frank Bayne]

On Tue, 9/30/08, LM <linda...@yahoo.com> wrote:   BTW, where does one get ones hands on a particular size glass that would fit perfectly inside a tank.. that is smoothed out so it's not a hand-slicer risk?

A lot of hardware stores carry 1/8" and 1/4" glass and will cut it for you - it'll be cheap. A belt sander will ground the edges quickly - they might even do it at the hardware store. If not, and you can't get your hands on a belt sander, rap the sand paper around a wood block. The ends of the glass won't have to sanded smooth. When the glass is cut, it's not flat along its edge unless its been ground. Silicone must have a minimum thickness of 0.5 to 1 mm to allow for the irregularities along its edge.

is aquarium silicone strong enough to keep the glass brace just glued on at the ends to the front and back panes?  2"x1/4" seems like a very small cross section for the silicone to hold onto and not delaminate with the water pressure pressing the glasses away...?

Yes, in construction they are starting to build glass walls from the floor to the ceiling. These walls are made of 1/4" tempered glass (tempered glass has a tensile strength 5+ times greater than standard plate glass) in case someone walks into them. The sheets of glass are butted together, 1mm apart with a clear silicone bond. Once the silicone is dry, they slide a razor blade down each side of the joint, bonding only the edges of the glass.

or did you silicone the glass all the way across under the original brace, as well as the ends?

I went to bed and got to thinking about it. A couple I fixed that had the plastic support across the center, supported the glass top and light. I installed the strip of glass under the broken plastic support. Yes, the plastic brace was glued to the glass with a bead of silicone. The glass support as well as the aquarium glass where the bond is to take place has got to be clean. I put a piece of tape 3 or 4"s long, 3/8" down from the top of the tank, centered, where the glass support is to be bonded to the front and back glass'. Silicone each end of the glass support as well as a bead down the top center for the plastic to stick to. A 2" wide duct tape stuck to the front, across the top, and down the back of the tank part of the way will support the brace instill the silicone sets up. I also run a small bead of silicone under the center support front and back. Run your finger under the joints and pull off the 3 to 4" strip of tape on the inside front and back glass. That will give the silicone a nice clean edge. If the tank has plastic trim all the way around the top, it will hide the ends of the glass support.

are aquarium silicones that strong?       linda

As long as the glass is clean, it will hold - silicone is what is holding the tank together. The St. Louis Mo. zoo has a 3/4" glass wall (with the butted edges) that is holding a 5' deep pond of water - just make sure you get 100% pure silicone.............. Frank

[Frank Bayne]

On Tue, 9/30/08, LM <linda...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Don't know..  the plastic rim around the tank is silicone glued onto the glass tank itself.  the center brace is monolithic piece to the plastic rim.  So in effect, if it is indeed preventing the front and back glass from bowing, the center brace is holding the plastic rim/ frame together, and since the rim is glued onto the glass, it effectively holds the glass together.

That's how I thought the tank was built. The trim adds no structural support, it's purely aesthetic. In one of your other post, you said the tank was higher than a 29 gal. tank. I checked the glass thickness on my 29 gal. tank against the thickness you said your tank is and they appear to be the same. My 29 gal. tanks are only a couple of weeks old (bought them at PetCo when they had their dollar a gal. sale) and they don't have a top center support, and do bow a 1/4". Being that your tank is even taller, and you have a small child in the house, for the few bucks a glass center support will cost you, I would put the support in.

the All-Glass site (now Aqueon or something) states that if the center brace is removed, the tank warranty is void because it can compromise the structural integrity... (or some wording of that nature). May be it's also a function of the aspect ratio (22" high, 30" length.. as opposed to the standard 12" or 18" height).. and it just does tad better with a slight support..

All the more reason to put a center support in.

I did make a call to All-Glass to find out how risky it is to keep the tank with the broken brace.. haven't heard back from them.

When/if they do reply, you don't think they will tell you it's OK, even if it is, do you? HOLY COW - - - -  it's going to be a big deal, they want you to buy a new tank. If you go ahead and install a glass support, the tank will be structurally better than it ever was.

I've seen Oceanic tanks about the same size that used much much thicker glass and had no center brace.  I remember looking at the thickness of the glass and being astonished, as it looked like it was using glass twice as thick! so it might be purely a function of how thick a glass they used for the rimless tank, to decide whether the center brace is needed or not.. and for All-Glass, I think they use thin enough glass that even slight structural support up top makes a big difference.  but without calculations, I won't know (Boston, are you calculating???)

Rimless tanks without the top center support always use a thicker glass than one with a top center support. It doesn't sound like your tank has the thicker glass needed to not have a center support.

If I knew what I know now when I started all this fishing thing, I definitely would not have bought what I have now :-P  hind sight is 20/15!  (I would have gotten a tank that is 18" deep and not 12"... I would have opted for Oceanic or other higher-quality tank than All- Glass, I would not have put a UGF with pea-gravel and plants..  and on and on and on....).  sigh...      linda

All-Glass tanks are OK. I have set up a few pet stores using them for the stores tanks and never had any trouble with them coming apart, not that I haven't broke a tank or two. I agree with not installing an under gravel filter, but that's an easy fix - just remove the outlet tubes and let the gravel fill the holes - the tank/water will be fine, I've done it like 100 times....................... Frank

[Atom Weaver]

On Sep 30, 1:55 am, LM <lindama...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> is aquarium silicone strong enough to keep the glass brace just glued
> on at the ends to the front and back panes?  2"x1/4" seems like a very
> small cross section for the silicone to hold onto and not delaminate
> with the water pressure pressing the glasses away...?
>

Aye, there's the rub. By using the existing brace as the surface for
the repair, I get an order of magnitude more bonding surface over
which to distribute the sidewall bulge pressure. Roughly speaking, if
my bond strength is half that of silicone to glass, I still have a 5x
"security factor" advantage...

Re: Frank's question about marine epoxy bonding to plastic; it depends
heavily on the plastic. 2-pack marine epoxy bonding abraded ABS or
PVC gives a wicked good bond. That same glue on polypropylene or
polyethylene is next to useless.

This is what I used;

http://www.boatersworld.com/product/377940069.htm?utm_medium=productsearch&utm_source=google

Note, we're not talking here about your typical two-ton Devcon
epoxy... Marine epoxies work below the waterline, and are much more
flexible than household varieties.

> are aquarium silicones that strong?
>

Yes, Frank's method should work just as well. Different strokes,
etc. I just prefer the added security provided by a greater bond
surface. If Frank's system popped a bond, it would be pretty trivial
to just re-silicone it. In contrast, I'd expect my next failure would
be where the cross brace "T's" with the rest of the frame surrounding
the tank lip, which would eliminate the availability of a lot of
surface area on each side of the break. If that happens, I'd probably
have to cut out the whole cross brace, and switch to an installed
substitute brace like Frank's...

Adhesive Weaver
;-)

[NetMax]

I don't think the crossbrace on a 37g is very structural. It prevents
a bow and keeps a shape on top, for the cover to fit on. I wouldn't
lose sleep, but plan a repair so you don't have to wonder and worry
about it. The adhesives which stick to hard plastic don't usually
stick to glass, so you might have to do a little investigating. The
easiest might be to find a similar chunk of plastic, clamp it in
place, drill a few holes and pop some aluminium rivets into place.

NetMax

[LM]

Hi All,

thanks for all the suggestions. I'm going to start collecting some
info and materials for repair... I'll probably go with the plastic
"bandage" method using silicone all over, if I can't find the marine-
grade epoxy around here. (thanks for the link to the epoxy, AW!).. and
go look for binder clips (I'll ask my hubby to sneak some from work or
something... I recently quit work, so don't have access to fringe
benefit such as this. ha ha ha).

but as I was browsing the web, I just got a call from All-Glass
Aquarium tech support (I called for help and left a message. I called
"Aqueon" customer service, and they routed me to aquarium tank
warranty service). The support guy (John S.) was really nice. He
said the following:

0. warranty on 37G is 2yrs.. so it's beyond warranty, "sorry" he
said. (my tank is probably ~7 years by now)

1. replacement top frame with cross brace can be purchased separately
through an authorized All-Glass dealer (the dealer can special
order).. and the parts should be about $15 or so. he gave me a part
number so I can just call the dealer and have them give a quote. he
said 37G is a pretty common tank size, so I shouldn't have too much
trouble getting the parts. He said to make sure it's the version with
the center brace (I guess the 29G and 20L has the same footprint, but
doesn't require the center brace)

2. to take the top off, use something like a putty knife and score
through the silicone and "it should pop off"

3. to take pressure off the tank, just drop the water level 3-4inches
and it will be ok for a while. (this makes sense given that someone
said that 29G doesn't have a cross brace, and that is about 4inches
shorter than the 37G) Seems like the cross brace on 37G is more of an
extra security than an absolute necessity... provided that the design
has some engineering safety margin built in :-P

so... I guess it's worth calling the manufacturer ;-) John was very
nice. I told him that I'm glad that All-Glass sells parts, because I
really didn't want to have to tear down the tank and move everything
to a new tank just for this, and he said, "I totally understand!"
So.. reasonable manufacturer. Very nice.

anyhow, looking at the extent how the top rim is glued on using
silicone, i think taking it off is actually going to be a lot more
difficult than it looks. There's a huge glob at the corners, so i'm
afraid i'd accidentally score through the silicone that holds the tank
together. So I think I'm going to try the quick fix of gluing on
plastic using silicone adhesive, and perhaps screw/rivet the plastics
together. and if that doesn't work, then it's time to get a new
frame.. and hope I don't spring any leaks..

but I thought I'd pass along this info for those who end up in a
similar situaion as I.

linda

[Boston]

hey that looks like one of the old Schooner aquariums
those were hands down the best in there time


On Sep 30, 12:27 am, "Andy Gratton" <anglerfis...@googlemail.com>
wrote:

> Yes  Aquarium Silicone is pretty strong  that is what holds all the all
> glass tanks together,  as for  the glass  any good glass shop  will usually
> cut to size  for you  and bevel/grind  edges smooth for you,  ( well at
> least my local glass store does)
> In attached pic  you can see a central brace  this is made of glass  and the
> tank was 4ft long, 18 inches high  15inches wide,  and dang heavy lol
>

> 2008/9/30 LM <lindama...@yahoo.com>

>
>
>
> > BTW, where does one get ones hands on a particular size glass that
> > would fit perfectly inside a tank.. that is smoothed out so it's not a
> > hand-slicer risk?
>
> > is aquarium silicone strong enough to keep the glass brace just glued
> > on at the ends to the front and back panes?  2"x1/4" seems like a very
> > small cross section for the silicone to hold onto and not delaminate
> > with the water pressure pressing the glasses away...?
>
> > or did you silicone the glass all the way across under the original
> > brace, as well as the ends?
>
> > are aquarium silicones that strong?
>
> > linda
>
> > On Sep 29, 5:42 pm, Frank Bayne <frankr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > >            I didn't think epoxy bonded to plastic very good. I have fixed
> > them before using a 2" wide x 1/4" thick glass strip and siliconed it to the
> > front and back glass just under the old brace. Regular plate glass is most
> > commonly used in aquariums
> > > Frank
>
>
>

>  Tank Length.JPG
> 75KViewDownload

[Boston]

ok so I didnt have to calculate this out cause its not even close to
being a problem
you have a safety margin of over 3.5x the current stress on the glass
the sides and bottom is unaffected by the damaged brace
the sealant ( silicone ) holds around 200lb pr sq inch; is also
unaffected
the plastic top is going to be siliconed on as well so dont bother
trying to remove it to effect a fix
all in all
Ild leave it and pretend it had never broken
B

if you want to fix it
use nylon bolts through a piece of Plexiglas cut to fit under the old
brace
use a soldering iron to melt the holes not a drill and dont let
residue drop into the tank
and stay away from glues as fumes can kill fish
B

[NetMax]

Regarding removing the top, it's ymmv. In theory, silicone adheres
poorly to plastic. I've removed tops very easily (sometimes they even
come off in my hands by accident) and others have required running a
putty knife through. It depends on the style of the trim piece, and
how much silicone they managed to pump up inside. It's probably worth
a little exploration though. With the top in your hand, the repair is
easier to do (so is the replacement ;~)

NetMax

[Frank Bayne]

On Tue, 9/30/08, LM <linda...@yahoo.com> wrote:

anyhow, looking at the extent how the top rim is glued on using silicone, i think taking it off is actually going to be a lot more difficult than it looks.

Not as bad as you think. Silicone will not make a structural bond to plastic.

There's a huge glob at the corners, so i'm afraid i'd accidentally score through the silicone that holds the tank together.  So I think I'm going to try the quick fix of gluing on plastic using silicone adhesive, and perhaps screw/rivet the plastics together. and if that doesn't work, then it's time to get a new

frame..  and hope I don't spring any leaks..        linda            Any hobby shop will carry a fast setting glue that will bond to plastic. I have used a gap filling glue called 'Hot Shot'. It's also made for bonding plastics that fit together tight (thinner glue) - both set within one minute. Just hold a rag under the area to be bonded together, a drop or two of the glue and it's done within one minute. The glued joint is stronger that the plastic - no need for silicone.......... Frank

[videoman]

Mid posted.

On Sep 30, 12:51 pm, Boston <MaxTanksGaller...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ok so I didnt have to calculate this out cause its not even close to
> being a problem
> you have a safety margin of over 3.5x the current stress on the glass
> the sides and bottom is unaffected by the damaged brace
> the sealant ( silicone ) holds around 200lb pr sq inch; is also
> unaffected
> the plastic top is going to be siliconed on as well so dont bother
> trying to remove it to effect a fix
> all in all
> Ild leave it and pretend it had never broken
> B
>
> if you want to fix it
> use nylon bolts through a piece of Plexiglas cut to fit under the old
> brace
> use a soldering iron to melt the holes not a drill

If a drill is used make sure you run it in reverse - it slows the
drilling action to a level that prevents most Plexiglas breakage and
burring, and prevents cracking. Also all - what about the fish safe
epoxy putties available from most online (and possibly local lfss)
stores? It even cures / bonds underwater safely and won't harm aquatic
life (at least the kind we only deal with.). There should be no chance
of adversely affecting the fish. I have used to it repair a kerosene
squeeze bulb hand pump (the ones I use for pressuring filters clean
and priming) and it has worked perfectly - no air bubbles in the pump
and no leaks at all. Good luck all and later!

> and dont let
> residue drop into the tank
> and stay away from glues as fumes can kill fish
> B
>
> On Sep 29, 3:15 pm, LM <lindama...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > HI all,
>
> > well, I have a 37G All-Glass aquarium tank.  (essentially a 29G but
> > taller).  the dimension of the tank is 30x12x22...
>
> > I was just changing water now, and realized that the center brace of
> > the tank had snapped in half (plastic fatigue, no doubt).
>
> > now what do I do!?  I'm now scared to put the water full, as I fill
> > the tank, I can see the two halves of the brace separating...
>
> > what are my options?  how safe is it to leave it in the current
> > state?  is it fixable?  or do I have to get a new tank (I really don't
> > want to do this... tank is well-planted, UGF+canister.  last time I
> > drained the tank to relocate it, I almost killed off all my fish due
> > to UGF toxins, I think.  I don't even want to consider having to move
> > EVERYTHING over to a new tank!!!)
>
> > help!
>

> > linda- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Boston]

Fish Safe Epoxy ?
send me a link please
thanks B

[Andy Gratton]

I dont have a link  but there is something the "Salties"  use to stick  coral frags to reefs comes in 2 colours  murky brown  or a slightly dayglo pink  think it is sold under the name Coralline (spelling)? 

There is also something like silicone made in the UK sold under the name "Gold Label"  in garish gold coloured tubes with comic fish drawings on it  which is supposed to work  underwater  think it was originally marketed at Pond Owners 

2008/10/1 Boston <MaxTanks...@gmail.com>

[LM]

Hi Netmax,

I called one of the LFS, and they said that the top rim is about
$16... hmm.. given buying epoxy, and doing other "hard labor" $16 is
not bad to just get it replaced! then of course, he said for a 37G, I
probably don't need the center brace anyway, it's mostly for the light
fixture support, sooo...

now i'll have to decide whether looking at a broken brace will drive
me nuts or not, and if $16 and some labor will make me feel better!

linda

[Mister Gardener]

Boston wrote:

Fish Safe Epoxy ?
send me a link please
thanks B

Send the link to the group, please. Brand Names.

[Andy Gratton]

This is a link  for the Coralline Epoxy

 

http://www.theaquariumsolution.com/?q=node/180

 

and here  is a link for the Gold Label Sealer

 

http://www.huttonaquaticproducts.co.uk/goldlabelinstructions.html

2008/10/1 Mister Gardener <misterg...@email.toast.net>

[Atom Weaver]

On Oct 1, 3:47 am, LM <lindama...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Netmax,
>
> I called one of the LFS, and they said that the top rim is about
> $16...  hmm..  given buying epoxy, and doing other "hard labor" $16 is
> not bad to just get it replaced!  then of course, he said for a 37G, I
> probably don't need the center brace anyway, it's mostly for the light
> fixture support, sooo...
>
> now i'll have to decide whether looking at a broken brace will drive
> me nuts or not, and if $16 and some labor will make me feel better!
>

I'd do it. Forget all of the chemicals and custom cut/ground glass;
16 bucks is short money to get a whole new part. Most repair options
here would add up to close to that much money, anyways...

AW

[NetMax]

At least you sound more relaxed about the whole thing : )

$16 sounds pretty good when you think about what it would cost to have
it shipped to you from somewhere (not to mention the probability of it
arriving undamaged). Also when you have it in your hand, you can
check to see it's the right part, and removing the old one will be
easier if you're not worried about damaging it.

NetMax

On Oct 1, 3:47 am, LM <lindama...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[videoman]

Bottom posted.

On Oct 1, 3:18 am, Mister Gardener <mistergarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:

The following links are to the product description of that pet place's
epoxy putties. Their brand names should be listed on the pages for
each different epoxy putty. The links are;

http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/218637/product.web

http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/198258/product.web

http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/207666/product.web

http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/207675/product.web

The second link down is especially good. Good luck all and later!

[Bflowers]

Instead of trying to patch what you have. Contact All Glass and tell
them what is wrong. You can buy those top pieces for a few dollars and
the old ones are easy to remove and replace.

Bill F.

[LM]

Yes, definitely less panicked :-) especially after Boston's analysis
of 3.5x safety margin...

yesterday I looked at the center brace. when I first reduced the
water level to 60%, there still was about 1/4" gap at the break (no
difference from the tank was full). but now there is no gap. so it
seems it needed about 24hrs for the glass (or silicone) to un-bow
itself to its neutral state or something.

interesting.

so I know for sure now that the tank is not stressed. very noisy
though. the spray bar is free-spraying into the tank, so it sounds
like I have a fountain in my living room! i might start increasing
the water level a little at a time until the brace just stars
separating. my rasboras are looking very confused, since usually
they're swimming around in open water (amazons only reacha bout 16"
height.. so they have 4-5" of free water to swim up top). but now
they're swimming smack n the middle of the jungle created by my 12"
java ferns and 16" amazons bent sideways.. and the SAE are cowering
in the shadows. i'm beginning to see that SAEs, despite their size
(4-5" long) are quite a coward, in comparison to some other fish I've
had. they seem to not adapt to new environments as easily as other
fish I've had (rasboras, gouramis, bettas etc)

linda

[Boston]

that sounds more like a temperature induced stress
glass expands and contracts at a very different rate than plastic
if the tank was outside and it was cold and you moved it in and filled
it with hot water
the glass may have expanded faster than the plastic or vise versa
( plastic's expansion is several times that of glass )
the fluctuating gap kinda makes me wonder if this set up is in a
stable temperature environment
sunshine can do it as well as plastics photo degrade and weaken over
time making a failure more likely the older the tank is

[LM]

well, the tank is held at about 78F... granted, glass is an insulator,
so having 40% of the tank empty could create a thermal gradient a bit,
but I would have a hard time believing that the gradient is so large
that it takes 24hrs to acclimate... or that the thermal expansion
coefficient is so great that with just a few degree difference you
have a "breathing tank" sort of speak... oh one other detail... the
spray bar is pretty much splashing water enough that it's keeping most
of the interior of the tank wet... I suppose the evaporation of those
surfaces could lead to much cooler temperature, but just from touching
the tank, I don't really feel much of a gradient between the two
sections (empty portion and the filled portion).

tank is in a bright room but the sun doesn't hit it.. and it's been
pretty cool outside, so the indoor temperature has been pretty stable
at around 72F... (it can get hot indoors on a hot day, but it's been
pretty mild). so everything being in steady state, at worst, there
would be about 6degree farenheit thermal gradient... is that enough to
warp a 30in length glass 1/4" off its neutral state?

I suppose it could be thermal expansion of plastic and not the glass,
the center brace expanding due to the 55W CF lamp being on/off... but
then it would go the other way, right? (plastic expanding while lamp
is on due to heat, so the gap should close as opposed to open)... I
should look at the tank before the lamp goes on in the morning to see
if the gap is large... but that wouldn't explain why there was a gap
while the lamp was on when I first drained the tank, and then later on
with the lamp on (about 24hrs.. same time of day) the gap is gone...

I still like my theory of silicone creeping back to neutral state
taking 24hrs :-)

interesting material properties to ponder :-)

plastic right under where the CF illuminates is definitely degrading
(near where the brace broke.. the brace broke at the center, right at
where it appears to be some plastic weld joint or something, just at
the edge of the UV damage discoloration cause by the lamp). it's
discolored--brown plastic turning almost white at the surface...
scary to think that the UV emitted by fluorescent lamp is high enough
to do this much damage in 6-7 years (or potentially do it in 3-4 years
since the lamp is only on 12hr/day).

linda

[Frank Bayne]

On Sat, 10/4/08, LM <linda...@yahoo.com> wrote:   well, the tank is held at about 78F... granted, glass is an insulator, so having 40% of the tank empty could create a thermal gradient a bit, but I would have a hard time believing that the gradient is so large that it takes 24hrs to acclimate... or that the thermal expansion coefficient is so great that with just a few degree difference you have a "breathing tank" sort of speak... oh one other detail... the spray bar is pretty much splashing water enough that it's keeping most of the interior of the tank wet... I suppose the evaporation of those surfaces could lead to much cooler temperature, but just from touching the tank, I don't really feel much of a gradient between the two sections (empty portion and the filled portion). tank is in a bright room but the sun doesn't hit it.. and it's been pretty cool outside, so the indoor temperature has been pretty stable at around 72F... (it can get hot indoors on a hot day, but it's been pretty mild). so everything being in steady state, at worst, there would be about 6degree farenheit thermal gradient... is that enough to warp a 30in length glass 1/4" off its neutral state?

I must have missed a post or two again. I take it, your tank (40% empty) has a 1/4" space between the top broken plastic center brace - meaning the front and back of the tank has bowed 1/8" ?  My new 29 gal. tanks are rimless with no top center support, and full of water, they bow 1/8", both front and back. I believe your 37 gal. tank is 4"s taller than a 29 gal. tank - both having the same thickness of glass. If that's the case, yours 40% empty and that much taller, I would install the top glass support and forget about a new plastic top rim and support, just to be on the safe side.

I suppose it could be thermal expansion of plastic and not the glass, the center brace expanding due to the 55W CF lamp being on/off... but then it would go the other way, right? (plastic expanding while lamp is on due to heat, so the gap should close as opposed to open)...  I should look at the tank before the lamp goes on in the morning to see if the gap is large... but that wouldn't explain why there was a gap while the lamp was on when I first drained the tank, and then later on with the lamp on (about 24hrs.. same time of day) the gap is gone... I still like my theory of silicone creeping back to neutral state taking 24hrs :-)

Don't know about thermal expansion of plastic or glass, other than they wouldn't be the same. I do know that the temp. of the heated water is quite a bit different than the air temp above the water still within the tank, unless you have a _full_ cover. I bred bettas for a few years - I used a 5 gal. tank and dropped the water level 50% so the male doesn't have to swim so far to catch the eggs and put them back in his bubble nest, and less space for the fry to find their food once the eggs hatch. The air in the top half of the tank has to be the same temp as the water, otherwise the fry would die when they took their first breath of air, so a _full_ cover had to be put atop the tank so the temp would be the same.............. Frank

[NetMax]

In regards to the glass bow taking some time to return to normal, I
think the property you're seing is the material's memory. Glass has a
fairly good memory, returning to the shape it was formed to, but it
might take a few minutes or hours.

As for being an insulator, it's an *electrical* insulator but I think
it's more of a thermal conductor. You can feel the water temperature
by putting your hand on the front of a tank (the glass conducts the
temperature to your skin).

As for their thermal co-efficients of expansion being different, this
is true, but not really a factor at the temperature difference being
discussed. It's interesting to note that silicone stretches to
accomodate the difference, and if manufacturer's cure their tank's
silicone at ambient temperatures, then when we fill and heat them to
tropical temperatures, the glass will have expanded more than the
plastic. It's enough to make a little gap in the top corners of the
plastic trim, but not enough to influence the shape of the glass in
any way (imo).

NetMax

> > time making a failure more likely the older the tank is- Hide quoted text -

[Boston]

true glass does not remember a deformation
plastic however does
with that combination
and my guess that maybe the tank had been brought in from outside and
filled
( possibly a cold outside or maybe warm and then filled with cold
water )
left me thinkin that maybe some kind of sudden temp difference was the
culprit
I just don't see a force in this system adequate to necessitate let
alone break the center support
if all the measurements given are correct
the safety factor works out to be huge
Ive got safety factors on all of my materials charts down to about 1/3
less than what this works out to after the break
its got to be temp induced or something struck the center support that
isnt known or being mentioned
the tensile strength of the material the center piece is made out of
would be nice to know
that way I could probably rule ambient forces completely
tell me those things are made of polycarbonate
and the dimensions of the brace length width thickness

oh and ya silicone stretches well but, in order to meet its full
potential without tearing it must be applied specifically as a
bridging bead

Dam I know way to much about sealant
some one send me beer
fast Im out

cheers
B

On Oct 4, 7:57 am, NetMax <computeral...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In regards to the glass bow taking some time to return to normal, I
> think the property you're seing is the material's memory.  Glass has a
> fairly good memory, returning to the shape it was formed to, but it
> might take a few minutes or hours.

[Altum]

I

I assume you mean something other then Pabst? ;-)

--Altum

[Boston]

dont even suggest it
now they did just rescind the blue laws here in Colorado
so the proper way to have answered this one
was to have looked up the closest liquor store to say
Evans and Broadway for instance
called em up
and say something like
"Ild like to pay for a case of beer over the phone please"
"and some one will be in to pick it up"
"say Im not familiar with the Colorado micro brews"
"what would you suggest as a good solid beer"
"maybe an IPA for instance"
then you should have written back
expressed your concern for some fellow hobbyist being in a pinch
and offered the proper response

least
thats how I would have handled it

[JoeA]

I'd have to second Boston's opinion.

I have a 37 gal tall tank bought as an upgrade to my 20 Long, while
still fitting on the same iron frame.

That plastic center support broke a year or more ago and I've never
had a problem. I always thought the thing was there to keep a light
bar from easily falling in.

My front pane of glass is about 0.25 inch thick.

I've always been amazed at how strong and how long tanks can last. My
20Long was a hand me down from an uncle, which I've used for over 25
years. It's spent years dry in a cellar a few times, and still holds
tight when it's awaken from it's hibernation (filling over a couple
days of course). But, I'll admit, I haven't had that many tanks.
What is amazing is how well that adhesive holds! I mean, you look at
5 pieces of glass stuck together, hold all that water in, and it
doesn't seem possible that it won't pop apart! Especially with a
material we consider "slick as glass".

[LM]

actually silicon dioxide is a thermal insulator also, as well as
electrical insulator. it transmits IR radiation (heat), but that's
entirely dependent on how it is launched into the glass (aka fiber
optics) and only very specific frequencies. does anyone remember
Corning created Visionware.. where the pots and pans were made of
glass... (bad idea on many fronts). it didn't work very well... it
was great vessel in that the handle didn't get hot, but it also took
forever to heat up, and also tendency to burn things (turn off heat
and it still keeps cooking...), and not to mention, breakable...

Yes, glass feels cool to the touch but so do many other insulators
especially after it reaches steady-state. It's not a *good* insulator
in comparison to some other ceramics (like the tile used in space
shuttle to prevent it from burning up upon reentry), but it's still
considered thermal insulator. thermal management is a real issue with
silicon-based IC for this exact reason. it's electrical passivator
SiO2, is also a thermal insulator... thus it take a lot of thermal
management to do multi-layer IC's (that's not the only reason why it's
difficult, but it's one of them) that's why at one point people were
trying very hard to develop synthetic diamond thin film/crystalline
carbon as an electrical insulator for semiconductors since carbon is a
great thermal conductor and also a semiconductor near being electrical
insulator (well, we know how well that research went...). Anyway,
that is how you tell the difference between cubic zirconia and
diamond.. diamond conducts heat well, so it feels cold to the touch,
like it would with metal, while zirconia would feel relatively
neutral, like plastic or wood, since it's a thermal insulator in
comparison to diamond. most diamonds us laymen see are small enough
that making that kind of comparison using your fingers or lips is not
easy.. but pros basically have equipment to check its heat conduction,
and that's how they determine whether it's a real diamond or a cubic
zirconia very quickly.

but I digress...

as for the center brace material, it's the same material used as the
top frame of the tank.. Not sure what exactly is the type of
plastic. the break is at the center where there is what looks like a
"fused" mark.. like two plastic pieces melted together forming a rod-
like glob. So my guess is, the plastic failed mostly due to some
weird defect fatigue compounded with the weight of the glass top
(Versatop) and a light fixture, and some glass bowing (the glass is
somewhat deformed, since you can really see the distortion when you
change viewing angles looking into the tank)... and I do confess, I
did have a small wire that held the spray bar in place that was looped
onto the brace at the base (where the brace meets the frame)... and
not much weight there. There still is a "sag" on one side that has
the wire hanging (one break is not the same height level as the other
side), but the gap between the two is definitely gone (the plastic is
touching.. just the seam is staggered vertically)

linda

[Boston]

my God people has it really come to this
your missing the hole point
which was
Im outa beer
send help now

hell I even gave a basic location so people could check a variety of
stores and ensure they are buying me the best beer for there money
( notice I didnt say most )

( Broadway and Evans, Denver co. 80223 )

instead of being flooded with case after case for me to approve
and place on the acceptable or non-acceptable list
I get thermodynamics 101

well fine
Ill talk
if you buy
I just applied for a patent on plasma insulated glass
basically Ive stripped down a fluorescent light bulb to its basic
components
stuck em in a glass panel
turned on the juice
and then turned down the juice to its lowest possible level
( yes I know all about the Berkland strand likelihood <--- {my god I
think I just spelled likelihood correctly first time })
Im still experimenting with tuning ( and Im not sure its going to
work )
IE
modulating the electrons with an electronic ballast and a harmonic
tracking system ( like what they use in audio amplifiers ) to mimic
the wave length of the far infrared
or simulate how electricity responds to resistance ( solid things get
hotter, but what if that modulation was placed within an inelastic
scattering process like what you get in an argon plasma and then
resonated back and forth between points both with in the unit and with
in the space to be heated, frictionless heat ? )
Im thinking
maybe
if I placed one panel on each side of an room to be heated
and created a resonant wave in the far infrared range between the two
panels
using the glass as a trampoline powered by the modulated electrons
I could amplify existing heat instead of recreating heat every time a
area cools due to outside forces
IIE
amplitude a + amplitude b when placed in harmonic sympathy with one
another result in a amplitude of a+b
sounds lame till you realize that in terms of heat thats like adding a
70 degree surface to a 70 surface and ending twice the volume of heat
soooooo
if the inside temp is 70
and the glass is placed in exact harmonic sympathy with that 70
degree's
not only would it not loose heat nearly as fast
but it might just amplify the heat beyond the original 70 degrees long
enough for it to reach across the room and hit the other window at 70
degrees
assuming you can find the harmonic
dam I really am out of beer
so Im done at that
well that and any fool can get a provisional patent so Im not all that
proud of myself yet
but
the first part about electrifying the argon definitely works
it works every time you turn on a light bulb
so
based on energy consumption alone I can estimate the r value of a
plasma insulated panel to be at least over r-20
compare that to say r-2.5 for the basic insulated unit and then
calculate energy cost
my plasma panels are way ahead of the game even before I start talking
crazy about tuning them
ok
now Im done
guess its "tea time" for Fozy
did I mention poverty sucks yet
B

[LM]

Hi JoeA,

with your broken center brace, did you ever have any issue with
sagging hood/light fixture?

I was just wondering--did you just leave the brace broken as-is, or
did you take it out (shorten the center brace so only stumps remain)?
green stuff is collecting just at the the break.. high moisture, high
humidity, high light,and a nice gap where the water is collecting...
so it's starting to look pretty ugly.

linda

[JoeA]

Hello,

I left it as is, and yes I do get a build up of algae just like I do
underneath the light. Sometimes I knock the algae into the tank,
other times I throw it out. I've never had a problem with Algae,
which I figured was due to my light timer. I don't have live plants
so I let my timer turn the light on for an hour in the morning when I
feed, then it turns itself off until 4:00 PM when people start coming
home.

In my case I'm using an overhead Eclipse combo filter and light (dual
I believe). It slips around the frame covering the plastic top frame
of the tank. Now that I think about it, I don't think I've ever
noticed an issue with the Eclipse. It's not any tighter around the
tank, nor is it "heaving" itself up and off.

Because my light fits on & around the rim, nothing ever sagged. I do
think the brace should not bear any weight though. My guess was that
it's there to make it hard to drop in a plugged in light bar. I don't
know why it broke, I just figured age. As I'm reading this, I think
the bowing of the tank added stress to the support which caused the
split. Thinking it through, I'll bet in manufacturing the support is
a little tight so that it hasn't bowed up or down for when we look at
it in the store.

You can probably cut it back if it bothers you, or maybe use one of
the suggestions to keep it "level" and above the water. In fact, I am
happier now that it's broken. I can move my home made gravel vacs
from one end of the tank to the other without breaking siphon. (I was
so happy to get junk mail one day that was rolled up into a 3 foot
long clear plastic tube with flexible plastic end caps. After some
cleaning and a cut in one of the end caps to hold my water changing
tube, I ended up with a very nice vac!)