Hikari's First Bites fry food.

[Tynk]

Hey there fishy folks. = )


I really wish I had some betta fry to try it out on, but this powdered
fry food does appear to have several different sizes that I can see.
Angel fry were started out on it. No baby brine at all for the first
week 1/2 of feeding.
They eat it up like piggies.
The larger fry got food, the majority mediums, and even the lil
squirts...yet there are still even smaller bits that are smaller than
hatched brine.
If anyone has a betta spawn coming up please try this food and get
back to the group.
I have no plans for spawning bettas right now, otherwise I would try.
From what I can see though it could be an easy starter food for them.
I have no problems with frozen worms, but worm cultures in my house
disgust me.
One of the reasons I used to start out my betta fry with baby brine
right away.
The angel fry I started out with First Bites are now supplemented with
frozen baby brine, but I have to admit.....the fry spit out a lot more
brine than they do the first bites.
I don't know if that's because they're more used to it, or if they
like it better.
I've used frozen baby brine many times before, but this is the first
time with comparing the 2 foods.
I have some old brine eggs, but no salt. I was given a large can ($$
$??) of eggs by the owner of a local shop. He's selling (still, hard
market), but I don't know how old they are.
I'd like to compare the first bites to the frozen - and then the the
frozen to the live....then the live to the first bites.
Being sick as a dog, I don't see myself going out for salt.
It's hard enough on me doing water changes daily on them. = /
The other day my daughter was looking the fry and she said something
about one's looking at her.
I started to laugh as I remembered her as a 4-5 yr old - highly
attentive to the betta fry I had.
Like clock work she'd yell out...."Time to feed the babies!" hehe
One day while she was gazing at the betta fry, they started to become
aware of their surroundings outside of the tank. When this happens
they start moving their eye balls and you know they are looking at
you.
She...the little squirt that was yells out "Mom!....They're looking
me!" lol
Too cute.
Sadly she doesn't remember that, but she does remember sitting on a
chair next to the kitchen counter watching the bettas spawn.
She sat there determined to count each and every egg. And she did. She
kept a tally.
The angel fry are from my son's pair. I swiped 20 wrigglers from their
last spawn. One was obviously messed up and in need of being
euthanized, but it died on it's own not soon after I made the
decision.
Then a few days I lost one more. No obvious reason.
So, I have 18 half marble pearl -half silver pearlscale that are 19
days old.
My son, not realizing it, made a mistake that IMO was the reason he
lost his entire batch. He was so heartbroken.
I was helping him try to figure out what could have happened.
No disease, water conditions were fine, temp fine, water changes fine,
everything was fine.
I kept going back to something had to get into the tank, a toxin of
some sort.
My son grew up with me being...well anal about clean hands and arms
when working in the tank, no spraying air fresheners by the tanks,
etc.
This is burned into his brain, and he practices it with his tanks.
However, just recently his little sister made him another one of those
string bracelets that folks his age are wearing (even the men).
Without thinking he put this one on his other hand. He most likely had
a chemical or soap residue in the fibers and it got into the fry
tank.
It was hard on him to hear it was most likely his fault, but I tried
to explain that everyone makes mistakes.
I've done the same thing (wiping out a batch due to an error), and to
use it as a learning experience.
I send him pics and little videos of the fry as they grow and change.
I told him no matter how many of them he wants back after I grow them
out, he's not getting little Righty.
Righty is the fry with black around his right eye. (they're marble
coloring is quite obvious).
During a cleaning in their first week of free swimming, I didn't
notice Righty getting too close to the suction and he got stuck. Poor
lil guy. Then trying to get him free, I actually ended up pinning him
for a second.
I thought for sure I killed him. It was all crooked and swimming
wanky.
As I watched him/her I realize it's still snatching food....bent and
not getting off the tank floor for more than a second at a time. I
figured I'd have to euthanize Righty when done feeding and cleaning
the tank.....then I had to grab my daughter from school, come back to
do the dirty deed, and he's swimming a bit.
So then I waited to see how Righty would do. Day by day he swam better
and better, and his tail straightened out more and more.
As of today, Righty swims just fine and is competes better for food
than the smaller fry.
So being that I "broke" him, I have to keep him/her.
What a will to survive Righty has. He/she may not be perfect, but who
cares. It's staying here at home.
My daughter has her eye on one that has a large black diamond on it's
head.
I explained that it might not look like a diamond after it's grown.
They're just starting to bud out and their bodies are changing. That
flat head won't be flat for much longer, that's for sure.
But at least she'll be able to experience an angelfish's growth, and
how they go from looking like a sperm, to some sort of weird alien
looking fish, to the normal angelfish body shape.

[Mister Gardener]

The nutritional analysis of Hikari First Bites is nothing too great, in
fact the proteins 48% and lipids 3% are lower than what I feed my adults
for a maintenance diet. It you're looking for alternatives to live baby
brine shrimp, Golden Pearls are my first choice. They are used
extensively in European hatcheries and are just catching on here in the
US. Floating, to mimic live food, they have an extremely high nutrional
analysis, especially the protein and fats which fry need to grow fast
and healthy. Frank likes to use decaps, I've never been too crazy about
them, but they are also superior to pet store First Bites. I also feed
freeze dried cyclops and frozen daphnia - - all of these foods are
easily obtained and all are much better than First Bites. They contain
protein content around 60% and lipids as high as 33%. Just google the
foods and add fish to your search, as in Golden Pearls Fish and you'll
find a goldmine. Literally. Some of these foods are so small they have
the consistency of flour, bound to be small enough for even the tiniest
mouths. Nose around http://www.brineshrimpdirect.com/ and you'll find
lots of neat foods and good reading.

MG

[Frank Bayne]

From: Mister Gardener <misterg...@email.toast.net>

The nutritional analysis of Hikari First Bites is nothing too great, in
fact the proteins 48% and lipids 3% are lower than what I feed my adults
for a maintenance diet. It you're looking for alternatives to live baby
brine shrimp, Golden Pearls are my first choice. They are used
extensively in European hatcheries and are just catching on here in the
US. Floating, to mimic live food, they have an extremely high nutrional
analysis, especially the protein and fats which fry need to grow fast
and healthy. Frank likes to use decaps, I've never been too crazy about
them, but they are also superior to pet store First Bites. I also feed
freeze dried cyclops and frozen daphnia - - all of these foods are
easily obtained and all are much better than First Bites. They contain
protein content around 60% and lipids as high as 33%. Just google the
foods and add fish to your search, as in Golden Pearls Fish and you'll
find a goldmine. Literally. Some of these foods are so small they have
the consistency of flour, bound to be small enough for even the tiniest
mouths. Nose around http://www.brineshrimpdirect.com/  and you'll find
lots of neat foods and good reading.       MG

        The De-caps MG sent me for the angelfish fry first food is great, and you don't have

to mess around with brine shrimp hatcheries. The Golden Pearls he sent were just a little to

large for a first food (they come in like 3 or 4 different sizes), but once the fry were large

enough, also worked great. I think the smallest Golden Pearls are half the size of newly

hatched brine shrimp, and much higher in proteins - guess I'll order those next time around.

............... Frank

[videoman]

Bottom posted.

Hi tynk! Keep me updated about the efficacy of hikari first bites when
it comes to fish fry. Frozen foods cost a fortune and roommates often
demand NO cultures because of the smell and overall supposed poor
hygiene, AND the space it takes up, And the look of the place with
cultures growing in plain view. Also – a lot of freeze-dried foods are
too big in their smallest forms for a lot of fish fry to eat. Just
because I am so interested in hearing about fish fry being raised off
of first bites doesn’t mean I never want to do cultures or buy freeze
dried foods in the future though. It just would be great if angel and
betta fry could be raised exclusively on first bites. Good luck all
and alter!

[Tynk]

On Dec 10, 5:55 pm, videoman <video...@ccountry.net> wrote:

>
> Hi tynk! Keep me updated about the efficacy of hikari first bites when
> it comes to fish fry. Frozen foods cost a fortune and roommates often
> demand NO cultures because of the smell and overall supposed poor
> hygiene, AND the space it takes up, And the look of the place with
> cultures growing in plain view. Also – a lot of freeze-dried foods are
> too big in their smallest forms for a lot of fish fry to eat. Just
> because I am so interested in hearing about fish fry being raised off
> of first bites doesn’t mean I never want to do cultures or buy freeze
> dried foods in the future though. It just would be great if angel and
> betta fry could be raised exclusively on first bites. Good luck all
> and alter!

These fry are being fed both B. brine and the first bites now.
I wanted them to have more "meat" in their diet, but waited to see how
they would take the First Bites.
So far, they like it.
From what I see, if feeding both baby brine and first bites, betta fry
would do fine without stinky worm cultures.

[Mister Gardener]

The Golden Pearls I sent you were 100-200 microns, I think. They are available as 0-50 microns.

MG

[Frank Bayne]

From: Mister Gardener misterg...@email.toast.net

 

The Golden Pearls I sent you were 100-200 microns, I think. They are

available as 0-50 microns.     MG

 

          0-50 microns, small enough for betta and tetra fry. Yes, what you sent were

almost to big for the smaller half of the angelfish fry for their first food. The De-caps

worked good for the first week, then I changed over to the Golden Pearls. They say

fry with a single dose (D) of black grows much faster than a  double dose (DD) of

black. Don't know if it's the food or the DD zebra angelfish fry from a pair I got out

of the bunch I bought from you, but they grow as fast as any wild type (silvers). I

suspect it's a little of both since the DD zebra breeders are the largest I've seen in over

25 years. In what sizes do you sell the Golden Pearles? My grand daughter tried

feeding the Golden Pearles (100-200 micron) size to her sword tails, guppies, rasboras,

and tetras, which go nuts over it, but it's a little small  for the larger fish. I didn't want

her to be feeding all my fry food  - at least not until I have more on hand..................

Frank

 

[Tynk]

On Dec 10, 3:11 pm, Mister Gardener <mistergarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:

> The nutritional analysis of Hikari First Bites is nothing too great, in
> fact the proteins 48% and lipids 3% are lower than what I feed my adults
> for a maintenance diet.

It may not be too great, but it's not bad either.
What is the protein level they're getting with only being fed baby
brine?
I'm not talking about later on....Just as a first food, or as a
supplement to go along with BB as first foods.
I'm also not talking about when they're large enough to go for normal
foods (prepared for them).
The way I see it they'd be starting out with a more rounded diet.

It you're looking for alternatives to live baby
> brine shrimp, Golden Pearls are my first choice.

Nope.
I wasn't talking about an alternative for BB.
It's about finding an alternative to worm cultures for fry smaller
than angels, as well as using it to supplement larger fry, like
angels.

Here's what I said:

<<<The larger fry got food, the majority mediums, and even the lil
squirts...yet there are still even smaller bits that are smaller than
hatched brine.
If anyone has a betta spawn coming up please try this food and get
back to the group.
I have no plans for spawning bettas right now, otherwise I would try.
From what I can see though it could be an easy starter food for them.
I have no problems with frozen worms, but worm cultures in my house
disgust me. >>>>>

>They are used
> extensively in European hatcheries and are just catching on here in the
> US. Floating, to mimic live food, they have an extremely high nutrional
> analysis, especially the protein and fats which fry need to grow fast
> and healthy. Frank likes to use decaps, I've never been too crazy about
> them, but they are also superior to pet store First Bites.

I researched using decaps long ago, and I wouldn't use them. They
aren't digested and just get pooped out.
If it's not being used how is it going to be a superior food?
It's wasted.
I forget if it's AngelsPlus or The Angelfish Society that explains
this, and why Decaps should be avoided.
Even a picture of decaps going right on through....just like it went
in.
You should check that out.

[Tynk]

On Dec 11, 8:52 am, Tynk <TY...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Dec 10, 3:11 pm, Mister Gardener <mistergarde...@email.toast.net>
> wrote:
>
> > The nutritional analysis of Hikari First Bites is nothing too great, in
> > fact the proteins 48% and lipids 3% are lower than what I feed my adults
> > for a maintenance diet.
>
> It may not be too great, but it's not bad either.

I do have to give Mr.G. big thanks for opening my eyes on how poor of
a food the tetra flake is.
By prompting me to do look into the other stuff, it was just a natural
branch of research for me.
The following link is an article that was quite interesting.
It also talks specifically about First Bites.
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Quality_Fish_Food.html

[Mister Gardener]

Frank Bayne wrote:

They say fry with a single dose (D) of black grows much faster than a  double dose (DD) of

black. Don't know if it's the food or the DD zebra angelfish fry from a pair I got out

of the bunch I bought from you, but they grow as fast as any wild type (silvers).

"They" say all kinds of stuff. I firmly believe that the best growth enhancer is 80% water changes daily for at least a couple of months. And after those first months, the same large changes every three days. My week old fry are getting 100% water changes twice a day right now. Their primary foods are freeze dried copepods - 60% protein - high lipids and high HUFA, and a generic growth meal with the same high nutrition. They'll begin getting the 100 micron golden pearls in another week or so. I'll get around to trying some 0-50 micron golden pearls one of these days. My (your) angels are also growing those unusually thick bodies too, so gram for gram, they're growing double fast.

Tell your grand daughter that Golden Pearls are a heckuva expensive food for her everyday fish.

I brought home 4 20 Highs today - they will mark the end of the Sterilite tubs for now. They'll be going into and onto a 55 gallon iron stand, which will open up a whole lot of space in my fish room. I'll keep the 22 gallon tubs on standby for emergency or unexpected events, but from here forward, I'll be able to add a couple of glass tanks a month getting them at the dealer's cost. Meanwhile I'm supposed to be cleaning the kitchen, bathroom, living room and moving around a bunch of furniture for Missus Gardener's hospital bed which is being delivered tomorrow. I'm busier that a male guppy in a tank filled with females. No, make that the other way around. Busier than a single female guppy in a tank full of males. Speaking of which, I'm beginning to nose around some of the fancy guppy breeding stock on the market. It's been a long time for me, I hope quality is still available.

MG

[Mister Gardener]

Tynk wrote:
> I researched using decaps long ago, and I wouldn't use them. They
> aren't digested and just get pooped out.
> If it's not being used how is it going to be a superior food?
> It's wasted.
> I forget if it's AngelsPlus or The Angelfish Society that explains
> this, and why Decaps should be avoided.
> Even a picture of decaps going right on through....just like it went
> in.
> You should check that out.

If you say so. Meanwhile, I'll continue feeding worthless foods and
growing awesome angelfish. Actually, Frank is currently feeding decaps
so maybe he should check it out too.

MG

[Mister Gardener]

Tynk wrote:
> The following link is an article that was quite interesting.
> It also talks specifically about First Bites.
> http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Quality_Fish_Food.html

Is that our friend Carl's old hangout? I wonder whatever became of him.

I'm really too busy raising angelfish to read the volumes of information
that has been published. I've found what works for me, and I'm satisfied
with my results. As are my customers. I learned this morning that a
group of 15 six month old Tie Dyes I delivered locally a few nights ago
were sold for $20 apiece. To a single customer who had ordered them in
advance. I take 50%, and weekly sales like that have made me reverse my
original business plan of cutting down on stock during the very cold
months when shipping is not practical. Although I do believe I read that
Angels Plus is able to ship in all kinds of weather no matter how cold.
More power too them. Meanwhile, I'll bookmark the link you cited and
read it when I have time.

MG

[Frank Bayne]

From: Tynk TY...@aol.com

I do have to give Mr.G. big thanks for opening my eyes on how poor of
a food the tetra flake is.
By prompting me to do look into the other stuff, it was just a natural
branch of research for me.

The following link is an article that was quite interesting.
It also talks specifically about First Bites.
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Quality_Fish_Food.html

 

           Great reading - but your talking about some high priced foods. Last time I looked on MG's angelfishgardens web site, he hadn't yet put the flake foods he sells, much less their ingredients. I have only bought three kinds of his flake foods so for,   100% Pure Spirulina Flakes, Vitamin Flakes, and the Brine Shrimp Flakes... The 100% Pure Spirulina Flakes are, 100% pure spirulina flakes...Vitamin Flake ingredients: white fish protein concentrate, oat, wheat, gluten and soy meal flours, shrimp, planktom and krill meal mix, brine shrimp, dried kelp, lecithin, fish oil, brewers yeast, natural and some artificial coloring, methionine, ascorbic acid (source of vitamin C), vitamin mineral supplement booster, calcium carbonate, vitamin 'E' supplement, D1 calcium pantothenate, nialin, D-biotin, thiamine mononitrate, menadione susium bisulfite complex, puridoxine hydrochloride, vitamin 'A' acetate, folic acid, vitamin D3, B12, A and E, riboflavin, choline, and vitamin B complex... Guaranteed analysis: Crude protein 39.0% min., crude fat 4.0% min., crude fiber5.0% max., moisture 10.0% max., no preservatives...

If you would like, I can also list the ingredients of the Brine Shrimp Flakes. I'm just pointing out that MG has quality flake food at a cheap price...

Now, (De-caps) in the article you posted above, it said, "Worms & Brine Shrimp - for young fry such as bettas: Walter worms, newly hatched brine shrimp, vinegar eels or micro worms are an excellent choice." De-caps are brine shrimp eggs without their hard outer shell! - newly hatched brine shrimp once you soak them in a cup of water 5 mins. before you feed them. MG doesn't care for them because they fall to the bottom. I like them because that's what they do - fall to the bottom, right where the fry are at that point in their life. As for as the De-caps going right through the fry - at that age - all/any food will do that. Their waste is the same color as their food - so is the belly of the fry! Betta fry, feeding micro-worms, vinegar eels, or infusoria will do the same thing - goes in the same color as it comes out, but their bellys are nice and round........... Frank

            

[Tynk]

On Dec 11, 11:08 am, Mister Gardener <mistergarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:

Mr. G.
There's no need for you shoot back comments like " If you say so.
Meanwhile, I'll continue feeding worthless foods".
Feeding decaps directly to fry and why it's not good to do is plainly
explained on the The Angelfish Society's web page.

< Actually, Frank is currently feeding decaps
> so maybe he should check it out too.

Yes, he should.
I know you don't seem to care for anything I say lately, but I was
simply passing along a fact I read from a pretty reliable source.
Do you think The Angelfish Society folks don't know what they're
talking about?

[Tynk]

On Dec 11, 11:40 am, Mister Gardener <mistergarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:

Thank you.

[Tynk]

On Dec 11, 5:36 pm, Frank Bayne <frankr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> From: Tynk TY...@aol.com
>
> I do have to give Mr.G. big thanks for opening my eyes on how poor of
> a food the tetra flake is.
> By prompting me to do look into the other stuff, it was just a natural
> branch of research for me.
> The following link is an article that was quite interesting.

> It also talks specifically about First Bites.http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Quality_Fish_Food.html

>
>            Great reading - but your talking about some high priced foods. Last time I looked on MG's angelfishgardens web site, he hadn't yet put the flake foods he sells, much less their ingredients. I have only bought three kinds of his flake foods so for,   100% Pure Spirulina Flakes, Vitamin Flakes, and the Brine Shrimp Flakes... The 100% Pure Spirulina Flakes are, 100% pure spirulina flakes...Vitamin Flake ingredients: white fish protein concentrate, oat, wheat, gluten and soy meal flours, shrimp, planktom and krill meal mix, brine shrimp, dried kelp, lecithin, fish oil, brewers yeast, natural and some artificial coloring, methionine, ascorbic acid (source of vitamin C), vitamin mineral supplement booster, calcium carbonate, vitamin 'E' supplement, D1 calcium pantothenate, nialin, D-biotin, thiamine mononitrate, menadione susium bisulfite complex, puridoxine hydrochloride, vitamin 'A' acetate, folic acid, vitamin D3, B12, A and E,
>  riboflavin, choline, and vitamin B complex... Guaranteed analysis: Crude protein 39.0% min., crude fat 4.0% min., crude fiber5.0% max., moisture 10.0% max., no preservatives...
> If you would like, I can also list the ingredients of the Brine Shrimp Flakes. I'm just pointing out that MG has quality flake food at a cheap price...

I wasn't comparing Mr. G's foods at all.
It was comparing Tetra products to other brands (even found at a pet
shop).
As well as mentioning they considered Hikari's First Bites a *good*
fry food, unlike what Mr.G. thinks.

> Now, (De-caps) in the article you posted above, it said, "Worms & Brine Shrimp - for young fry such as bettas: Walter worms, newly hatched brine shrimp, vinegar eels or micro worms are an excellent choice." De-caps are brine shrimp eggs without their hard outer shell! - newly hatched brine shrimp once you soak them in a cup of water 5 mins. before you feed them. MG doesn't care for them because they fall to the bottom. I like them because that's what they do - fall to the bottom, right where the fry are at that point in their life. As for as the De-caps going right through the fry - at that age - all/any food will do that. Their waste is the same color as their food - so is the belly of the fry! Betta fry, feeding micro-worms, vinegar eels, or infusoria will do the same thing - goes in the same color as it comes out, but their bellys are nice and round........... Frank

The comments I made about Decaps were not related to this article.
Please go to The Angelfish Society's website. I was simply trying to
pass on updated information from a reliable source.

[Mister Gardener]

Frank Bayne wrote:

Now, (De-caps) in the article you posted above, it said, "Worms & Brine Shrimp - for young fry such as bettas: Walter worms, newly hatched brine shrimp, vinegar eels or micro worms are an excellent choice." De-caps are brine shrimp eggs without their hard outer shell! - newly hatched brine shrimp once you soak them in a cup of water 5 mins. before you feed them. MG doesn't care for them because they fall to the bottom. I like them because that's what they do - fall to the bottom, right where the fry are at that point in their life. As for as the De-caps going right through the fry - at that age - all/any food will do that. Their waste is the same color as their food - so is the belly of the fry! Betta fry, feeding micro-worms, vinegar eels, or infusoria will do the same thing - goes in the same color as it comes out, but their bellys are nice and round........... Frank

           

I haven't given decaps a fair trial, I've only used them a few times and, as you said, I didn't like the way they sink. I don't like my baby angels to get in the habit of going to the bottom for their food - that's where they are most likely to pick up baterial infections and become what are known as belly sliders. I wondered for a long time what belly sliders were, until it happened in one of my own tanks, and yes, the babies had been getting most of their food from the bottom. I love the concept of decaps, as soon as an egg hatches, the new brine shrimp immediately begins to eat its own yolk and expend energy to swim about, all decreasing the nutrition, but I'll stick with the live baby brine shrimp. I like to see the babies work for their food, wake up the hunting instinct, build some muscles, the early development of which may contribute to the thick bodies my angels are known for. I don't mind using non-living foods, but the bouyancy of Golden Pearls and freeze dried cyclops are a big plus in my fish room. The levels of protein and fats in some of these foods is amazing and an increasing number of high end foods are being supplemented with HUFAs, another plus that keeps the scale between live and manufactured foods forever tipping in one direction or the other. And few sights are as rewarding as those bulging red bellies in a batch of baby angels.

MG

[NetMax]

I'm glad you brought up the subject of Hikari's First Bites Tynk.
There's been some interesting info brought forward because of it. As
for MG, I think he was just being Frank in his opinion. That's
alright as long as Frank is not MG in his opinion, because thay would
get too confusing for me ;~)

NetMax

> talking about?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Frank Bayne]

From: Tynk <TY...@aol.com>

I wasn't comparing Mr. G's foods at all.
It was comparing Tetra products to other brands (even found at a pet
shop).

 

 

         I didn't mean to imply that you were comparing MG flake foods, fact is, I was. Little back ground - I

was feeding a couple different kinds of Tetra's flake foods, some frozen foods, some freeze dried foods, and Formala One flakes, before I bought MGs angelfish. In an e-mail to him, I told him what I was looking for (as for as the angelfish went). He had just sold a bunch to a LPS and he said he would have them (mine) in a couple of weeks and he would 'hand pick' them for me, which he did and was ready to ship them within the two weeks. I work construction and ran out of work for 2 months - no extra money, so I didn't order the fish. Mean while, we (MG and I ) e-mailed each other quite a bit - mostly angelfish talk, but fish food did come up. When I told him I was feeding a couple of different kinds of Tetra's flake foods, he said he would send me some of the flake foods he sold, to try out, along with the fish/driftwood I wanted. When I got a few extra bucks (two months later), I sent it off to pay for the fish, driftwood and shipping cost. By the way - the dime/nickel size angelfish I ordered/bought, were now fifty cent size (paid dime/nickel price and got fifty cent size at no extra cost). When I got the driftwood package, with it was some of his flake foods (with their ingredients), De-caps, and the Golden Pearles. First thing I did was to compair his flake food ingredients to Tetras and Formula One. When I found it was every bit as good as Formula One, I e-mailed him (MG) for  prices on his flake foods. I was paying about the same for the Tetra flakes as he wanted for his much higher quality flake foods - been buying MGs flake food ever sense.

I'm sure other people in the group would be doing the same thing as you were, comparing what ever they are feeding, to what they *should* be feeding - that's all I was doing, and didn't want MGs flake foods left out of the 'comparing'...

 

 

As well as mentioning they considered Hikari's First Bites a *good*
fry food, unlike what Mr.G. thinks.

            I picked up on what the said about Hikari's First Bites, a "good" fry food. That's why I quoted what they said about "Worms and Brine Shrimp" being an "excellent choice" !     ie: De-caps are brine shrimp...

I might add, I agree with MG on this one, there are better 'first foods' than the first bites, and cheaper. I agree it might be a 'good' food, but what happened to better and best?

The comments I made about Decaps were not related to this article.

 

 

          O, but they are related to this article - we were talking about a good first food for angelfish and betta fry. MG said he liked the Golden Pearles and I said I liked the De-caps, and we each said why...

 

Please go to The Angelfish Society's website. I was simply trying to
pass on updated information from a reliable source.

 

            I did go to The Angelfish Society's website, but could not find the article (need a little help). I would like to see what they have to say about the De-caps - but would likely disagree. Like I said, I feed them, the fry eat them, and their bellies look like they ate a BB. The baby brine shrimp that comes out of the De-caps still have their yolk sack - egg yolk is about the best fry food for the fry one can feed, with live baby brine or worms, right up there with the egg yolk...

I'm a little disappointed with The Angelfish Society - I e-mailed them giving them the information they wanted for a new member. Within a couple of days, I put a money order for $5.00 in the mail (to join), e-mailed them again telling them the money order was in the mail - - - and never heard from them. They eat her got the money order and didn't put me down as a new member, or didn't get the money order for some reason - but in eat her case, they should have sent me an e-mail. ...................Frank

[Javadan]

Hey all,

I've been a little overwhelmed with life for a while now, but try to
check in when I have time.

With regards to this thread, I've found Argent Cyclop-eeze to be
readily devoured by all of my fish. It's a fine powder freeze dried
food. The Endler's fry love it, too. I realize they're not as small
as egg layer fry, but this stuff is very small.

jd

[Mister Gardener]

Frank Bayne wrote:

  I'm sure other people in the group would be doing the same thing as you were, comparing what ever they are feeding, to what they *should* be feeding - that's all I was doing, and didn't want MGs flake foods left out of the 'comparing'...

 

 

As well as mentioning they considered Hikari's First Bites a *good*
fry food, unlike what Mr.G. thinks.


            I picked up on what the said about Hikari's First Bites, a "good" fry food. That's why I quoted what they said about "Worms and Brine Shrimp" being an "excellent choice" !     ie: De-caps are brine shrimp...

I might add, I agree with MG on this one, there are better 'first foods' than the first bites, and cheaper. I agree it might be a 'good' food, but what happened to better and best?

I first began studying fish nutrition and digging deeper, beyond the off the shelf foods, and discovered smaller businesses who were selling lesser known brands, often their own brands of food which they had a manufacturer produce to their specifications. Brineshrimp Direct has tons of foods and good reading. These merchants provided helpful information about the specific ingredients and the applications for which they were suited. As I began trying some of these lesser known foods the first thing I was impressed with was their freshness. A couple of merchants sent me sample packets of a few of their foods, some my fish liked, others they didn't. During that time period, there was a lengthy discussion among TFA members about their favorite fish foods and why. That was one of the most useful threads in the TFA archives, I hope it has been preserved by someone for easy access some day. There were a few comments that one food or another was "bad', but generally the members tended to build a hierarchy  of  "good, better, best."  I personally don't believe there is a "bad" food on the market, and if I was not feeding hundreds of angel fish I would probably continue feeding good old middle of the road Wardley's Marine Flake. I bought it from my lfs's bulk supply which seemed fresher than the consumer cans on the rack. One of the qualities that many of our members mentioned in that marathon discussion was "freshness." And this I believe is where some perfectly good, possibly excellent, brands fell down. I don't know for certain, but it seems that the larger the manufacturer the more likely the food on the shelf is to be old. This is where some of the new, lesser known brands like Ocean Nutrition really stand out. I have a couple of cans of Formula One in the freezer as a backup in case I let my specialty supply run out.

The available information on fish foods follows the same path as the information on tropical fish keeping in general. Published books and magazines are highly influenced by the sponsors who are providing the publisher's paycheck. And it also holds true that "if I read it on the internet, it must be true. Or not." There is good information from each of these sources, it's up to the reader to separate the useful from the useless.

The care and raising of angel fish has its mish mash of fact and folklore as well. Some breeders follow the tried and true methods, others pick up information from many sources and come up with their own methods. This is an area where angelfish breeders are most diverse. there are fine differences in the method each breeder chooses, and this accounts for differences in survival rate, overall health, size, attractiveness and longevity. This is also an area where many successful commercial breeders are cautious about revealing their methods to the general public or to other breeders. I believe I am more open about the hows and whys of what I do than any breeder I've talked with. I think the information is considered "trade secrets", and I've never liked secrets. One of my more disappointing internet experiences has been discovering that the best known angelfish forum lists many respected names in their roster, but those are not the names usually seen in their forum messages. The messaging is primarily amongst the general members seeking to learn more, and the questions are answered by these folks as well, with little or no intervention from the recognized experts. Paying the five dollars for permission to enter the more exclusive forum is no better.

The comments I made about Decaps were not related to this article.

 

 

          O, but they are related to this article - we were talking about a good first food for angelfish and betta fry. MG said he liked the Golden Pearles and I said I liked the De-caps, and we each said why...

Decaps retain the 60% protein of the brine shrimp embryo and egg. Pre-soaked in HUFA gives them excellent Highly Unsaturated Fatty Acids. Good Stuff. I just wish they would float.

Please go to The Angelfish Society's website. I was simply trying to
pass on updated information from a reliable source.

 

            I did go to The Angelfish Society's website, but could not find the article (need a little help). I would like to see what they have to say about the De-caps - but would likely disagree. Like I said, I feed them, the fry eat them, and their bellies look like they ate a BB. The baby brine shrimp that comes out of the De-caps still have their yolk sack - egg yolk is about the best fry food for the fry one can feed, with live baby brine or worms, right up there with the egg yolk...

I'm a little disappointed with The Angelfish Society - I e-mailed them giving them the information they wanted for a new member. Within a couple of days, I put a money order for $5.00 in the mail (to join), e-mailed them again telling them the money order was in the mail - - - and never heard from them. They eat her got the money order and didn't put me down as a new member, or didn't get the money order for some reason - but in eat her case, they should have sent me an e-mail. ...................Frank

You are not alone in your disappointment with TAS. I pay my $5 for access for Dr Joanne's wonderful collection of articles and for the phenotype library. When I first entered their forum I was bombarded by questions from people eager to learn. I didn't see any of the hoped for experts answering the questions, so I began fielding them. What turned out to be among the longest threads on their forum was brought to a halt when I received a note from heaven telling me that I was off topic.

Oh, and to get back to this current topic. I've used First Bites successfully in raising other egglayers like zebra danios, but they just don't have enough of the protein and fat that I prefer to feed my newborn angels where top quality is my number one goal. No commercial food is inherently good or bad; they differ in the appropriateness to the desired outcome. I agree that there are also better and best for specific applications.

MG

[Mister Gardener]

Ooops. Before anyone points it out to me I'll admit that the first sentence of my reply below is incomplete. I am incomplete for just a couple more hours when I pick up Missus Gardener and bring her back where she belongs: home.

MG

[Tynk]

On Dec 13, 6:38 am, Mister Gardener <mistergarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:

> Ooops. Before anyone points it out to me I'll admit that the first
> sentence of my reply below is incomplete. I am incomplete for just a
> couple more hours when I pick up Missus Gardener and bring her back
> where she belongs: home.
>
> MG
>

Good to hear Missus G is coming back home.
::hugs::

[Tynk]

On Dec 13, 6:10 am, Mister Gardener <mistergarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:

> Oh, and to get back to this current topic. I've used First Bites
> successfully in raising other egglayers like zebra danios, but they just
> don't have enough of the protein and fat that I prefer to feed my
> newborn angels where top quality is my number one goal. No commercial
> food is inherently good or bad; they differ in the appropriateness to
> the desired outcome. I agree that there are also better and best for
> specific applications.
>
> MG

When it comes to angel fry, I wouldn't advise to use First Bites only.
I did with the fry I currently have for their first week 1/2 simply
because frozen bb wasn't available. Well, one store had it in stock (3
stores were sold out and waiting), and the one that had it in stock
was all bad. They were having problems with their mini freezer. It was
obvious to them because when I said all these foods are spoiled to the
worker, he yelled over to the "manager" (in quotes for reason) about
it messing up again.
It hadn't been off for too long, as only the baby brine packs had
thawed as well as other flat packs. The packs with cubes were still
solid, but obviously spoiled and refrozen.
I told them you can't refreeze the stuff and sell it. Especially fry
food!
I won't buy food from them again.
I did notice something odd about their bb though. I normally, as a
rule now buy Hikari's frozen foods, as opposed to San Fran brand.
The San Fran baby brine was gooey (obviously thawed) but quite red in
color. I wonder if they add dye to it.
The Hikari's was not. It was obvious that it was spoiled.
The point of trying First Bites out for me was to see if it would be
small enough for the betta fry that can't handle bb.
I believe, after using it with my angel fry that it will be. There are
smaller bits than bb, bits the same, and some slightly larger.
Now with angel fry I would think a feeding of it daily would round out
their diet, only making their diet better. Like a bonus to their
normal first food.
I didn't mean that it was a better food than baby brine for angels if
anyone was thinking that. Just an addition to their normal daily diet.
Basically, for betta fry (or fry that small) it could be used instead
of microworms, V eels, etc., and in addition to baby brine.

[Tynk]

On Dec 12, 6:40 pm, Frank Bayne <frankr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> From: Tynk <TY...@aol.com>
>
> I wasn't comparing Mr. G's foods at all.
> It was comparing Tetra products to other brands (even found at a pet
> shop).
>
> I didn't mean to imply that you were comparing MG flake foods, fact is, I was.

Ok, now I understand why you wrote that.

> I'm sure other people in the group would be doing the same thing as you were, comparing what ever they are feeding, to what they *should* be feeding - that's all I was doing, and didn't want MGs flake foods left out of the 'comparing'...

And I hope others in the group have learned too about how protein
levels can be made to look like the higher end food levels.....but are
made from crappy fillers to get the same or higher %'s - like I found
out about the Tetra flake I supplement my other fish's diets with.


..

> I might add, I agree with MG on this one, there are better 'first foods' than the first bites, and cheaper. I agree it might be a 'good' food, but what happened to better and best?

I agree with your point. However, for folks like me that want nothing
to do with worm cultures, I see it as another choice before baby
brine.
That's all.
If tomorrow they started selling microworms in a frozen way..no stink,
just pop it into your food container, add some tank water, swoosh and
feed. I would do that and probably not give the First Bites another
thought when it came to betta fry.

> Please go to The Angelfish Society's website. I was simply trying to
> pass on updated information from a reliable source.
>
> I did go to The Angelfish Society's website, but could not find the article (need a little help).

OK, found what I did.
I completely goofed! The other night trying to search for protein and
fat levels in baby brine, there was something else I found on TAS's
site (which backed up something both you and I agree on, but Mr. G.
thinks is barbaric (his word)...email for that because I don't want to
start another culling thread.
So big screw up on my part, the picture of the fry with decaps in it
system as well as it being pooped out the same as it went in is on
AngelsPlus' site.
Here's the article:
http://www.angelsplus.com/ArticleDecap.htm
They may not be TAS, but I do view them to have good info.
Check it out. = )

[Altum]

On Dec 13, 4:38 am, Mister Gardener <mistergarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:

> Ooops. Before anyone points it out to me I'll admit that the first
> sentence of my reply below is incomplete. I am incomplete for just a
> couple more hours when I pick up Missus Gardener and bring her back
> where she belongs: home.

That's wonderful news! I hope the care routine works out OK and she
can stay put for a while.

--Altum

[Mister Gardener]

All is going very smoothly, her service dog Rufus is turning 100 pound backflips and drowning her with kisses. I've already noticed an improvement in my own memory, Missus Gardener has served as my backup hard drive to supplement my dwindling supply of little gray cells. And what a perfect night to watch our favorite movie - It's A Wonderful Life. (If you know how the movie ends, don't tell me; I like to be surprised.)

I use 3 of the 4 aquariums surrounding her for observing small groups of angelfish for development and for pairing behaviors. Her input is important and contributes significantly to the growth and maintenance of Angelfish Gardens. My 25 planted tank is just a few inches from the head of her bed and I like to keep the water level lowered so the filter provides a constant waterfall, splashing the leaves of the plants that are growing up and out of the tank. She's asked me to please fill that tank and make it stop splashing because she's one of those women who, when they hear the sound of trickling water, well, you know.

I've received supportive emails from a number of people during the past couple of months and I might not have replied to them all. You know who you are, so please accept this as a great big thanks to all.

MG (We now return you to regularly scheduled programming about Tropical Fish Aquariums.)

[Melissa phillips]

Glad to hear she is home MG.  Enjoy her company.

On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 3:30 PM, Mister Gardener <misterg...@email.toast.net> wrote:

All is going very smoothly, her service dog Rufus is turning 100 pound backflips and drowning her with kisses. I've already noticed an improvement in my own memory, Missus Gardener has served as my backup hard drive to supplement my dwindling supply of little gray cells. And what a perfect night to watch our favorite movie - It's A Wonderful Life. (If you know how the movie ends, don't tell me; I like to be surprised.)

I use 3 of the 4 aquariums surrounding her for observing small groups of angelfish for development and for pairing behaviors. Her input is important and contributes significantly to the growth and maintenance of Angelfish Gardens. My 25 planted tank is just a few inches from the head of her bed and I like to keep the water level lowered so the filter provides a constant waterfall, splashing the leaves of the plants that are growing up and out of the tank. She's asked me to please fill that tank and make it stop splashing because she's one of those women who, when they hear the sound of trickling water, well, you know.

I've received supportive emails from a number of people during the past couple of months and I might not have replied to them all. You know who you are, so please accept this as a great big thanks to all.

MG (We now return you to regularly scheduled programming about Tropical Fish Aquariums.)

--
Melissa:)

[Gill]

Mister Gardener wrote:
> All is going very smoothly, her service dog Rufus is turning 100 pound
> backflips and drowning her with kisses. I've already noticed an
> improvement in my own memory, Missus Gardener has served as my backup
> hard drive to supplement my dwindling supply of little gray cells. And
> what a perfect night to watch our favorite movie - It's A Wonderful
> Life. (If you know how the movie ends, don't tell me; I like to be
> surprised.)
>
> I use 3 of the 4 aquariums surrounding her for observing small groups
> of angelfish for development and for pairing behaviors. Her input is
> important and contributes significantly to the growth and maintenance
> of Angelfish Gardens. My 25 planted tank is just a few inches from the
> head of her bed and I like to keep the water level lowered so the
> filter provides a constant waterfall, splashing the leaves of the
> plants that are growing up and out of the tank. She's asked me to
> please fill that tank and make it stop splashing because she's one of
> those women who, when they hear the sound of trickling water, well,
> you know.
>
> I've received supportive emails from a number of people during the
> past couple of months and I might not have replied to them all. You
> know who you are, so please accept this as a great big thanks to all.
>
> MG (We now return you to regularly scheduled programming about
> Tropical Fish Aquariums.)

Happy to hear some good news....today has not been the best for me, as
we have at long last started to sort my Dad's stuff out.....hearing
about Mrs MG coming home has really lifted my spirits :-)

Gill

[Frank Bayne]

From: Tynk TY...@aol.com

So big screw up on my part, the picture of the fry with decaps in it
system as well as it being pooped out the same as it went in is on
AngelsPlus' site.
Here's the article:
http://www.angelsplus.com/ArticleDecap.htm
They may not be TAS, but I do view them to have good info.
Check it out.  = )

           No wonder I couldn't find it the first time around...

 OK, I read the article, and as I thought, disagree.

Fist off, the De-caps need to be soaked in tap water for 1 or 2 mins. This will hydrate the De-cap to it's fullest size. Tap water has chlorine added to it - when chlorine is added to water a reaction occurs splitting it into Hypochlorous acid and Hypochlorite ions. The acid desolves the "transparent outer layer" spoke of in the article, which when viewed under my microscope at 30x, took 45+ seconds. I agree his "previously observed slow growth" would occur, if the "transparent outer layer" wasn't desolved before feeding. That would be like feeding flake food by dropping the whole can into the tank, without at least removing the lid! So, if you remove the lid, a, a - - - I mean "transparent outer layer", it would kind of shoot down the part at the end of the article where he says, "not readily absorbed through digestion", and "will likely raise bacterial levels greatly" - the only two things he points out that would make the De-caps, what he called, "a poor food"......... Frank

[Mister Gardener]

Where does an old greaser like you learn stuff like this. They sure don't teach it in the GED night school I attended. What hasn't been touched on yet is the two methods of decapsulating brine shrimp cysts, one that leaves them alive and one that kills them. The two methods will have a different impact on the digestibility and nutrition of the shrimps. I have made a concerted effort to withhold comment on the articles at Angels Plus, primarily because they are technically competitors of mine and I don't want to put down competitors. The article cited above certainly raised my eyebrows, but as I said, I'll keep mum about it and certain other things that I don't agree with. Angels Plus raises good angels and does a good business. And like virtually all outstanding breeders, they have their own ways of doing things. They hatch their eggs under bright lights in very hard water. I'm glad it works for them, but I don't agree it is the best way for everyone. I have a better than 99% hatch rate with my methods and the adult products speak for themselves. The recent addition of the educational articles at their site has served as a good guide for me as I begin to prepare some educational material for my own site. I say a good guide in the sense of how not to present information that is not well proven and standardized in the industry. The purpose of my site is to sell angelfish and to provide personal support before and after the sale. Each hobbyist / customer presents unique conditions, there are few absolutes in methodology; I don't want something I present in an article to be taken as the gospel according to MG. I think their is enough literature and other resources out there for new angel fish enthusiasts where they can find scientifically sound information - keeping my own advice relatively generic is the sensible path for me. And my own suggestions are drawn from old school and new school thinking, as well as some of my own experiences.

MG

[videoman]

Bottom posted.

On Dec 13, 12:30 pm, Mister Gardener <mistergarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:

That's great news mister gardener! I too haven't had the best last 2
days much like gill but this really cheered me up! On topic - what
bummed me out the last two days was me accidentally bumping an
expensive aquarium light with a pair of pliers while trying to get the
lens cover equivalent in place and blowing it's tube so I had to order
another one. When the deed was done I was very disheartened - I
mistakenly thought to myself - how could I be so stupid and have a
pair of pliers in the vicinity of the bulb? Anyway I am getting over
it especially with mister gardener's good news, and by the way mister
gardener - thanks for that brine shrimp hatchery recipe from a long
time ago here - I get good hatch rates now with that recipe unlike
before the recipe. I love feeding live brine shrimp to my fish.
Interestingly enough nowadays I can't believe my fancy guppies go nuts
over plain old powdered flake - must be because I almost always feed
exclusively via automatic fish feeders and those fancy guppies might
not be getting enough food because of that and so when I put a pinch
or two of non-automatic powdered flake in they go NUTS over it. The
last time I had seen something like that was the first few times of me
feeding them live baby brine shrimp periodically. The cichlid still
seems to eat in secret.

[Altum]

On Dec 13, 3:50 pm, Mister Gardener <mistergarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:

> Where does an old greaser like you learn stuff like this. They sure
> don't teach it in the GED night school I attended.

Um...he makes it up? If there is a chemical reaction with brine
shrimp egg coating that is specific to chlorinated tap water, it's an
oxidation reaction, not acid-base.

I haven't been following this thread too closely, because I'm not much
of a fish breeder. My fish breed as they please, and fry are often
partly grown on all the micro-fauna that lives on live plants by the
time I discover them. (Got some more gold tetras growing up.) If I
have a fish I really want to raise, I feed BBS. To me, decaps are to
BBS as dried beans are to sprouts. There is a lot more vitamin and
nutrient content in the sprouts than the bean.

--Altum

[Mister Gardener]

videoman wrote:
> That's great news mister gardener! I too haven't had the best last 2
> days much like gill but this really cheered me up! On topic - what
> bummed me out the last two days was me accidentally bumping an
> expensive aquarium light with a pair of pliers while trying to get the
> lens cover equivalent in place and blowing it's tube so I had to order
> another one. When the deed was done I was very disheartened - I
> mistakenly thought to myself - how could I be so stupid and have a
> pair of pliers in the vicinity of the bulb?

Nah. The pliers thing wasn't stupid. I once broke a stuck bulb while
trying to dislodge it with two soup spoons.
Now THAT is stupid.

I'm glad to learn that my personal high is a little bit contagious and
has provided a few minutes of light for you and Gill during your
personal dark times.

It was a pleasure sharing my full sized bed last night with only my
Newfie Jasmine, no longer wedged between her and Rufus. He is happy to
have a job again, which is shadowing Missus Gardener. I got a phone call
last night from the home health care agency telling me that a nurse
would be here this morning. They'll also be sending physical and
occupational therapists to the house. I'm very pleased that these
providers work a 7 day week, rather than 5. The US Medicare system for
disabled and elderly persons works a lot better than most people think.
Much better than the private insurance we carried in our younger days.
Our new government should just extend Medicare to all and be done with
the perennial arguments in congress over a national health care plan.

I'm looking forward to tackling the haphazard collection of tables,
desks and dressers that support my tanks in the fish room. And the tubs
of equipment underneath those tables. Adding my new, (free) 55 gallon
iron stand with 4 glass 20H tanks will free up a lot of space. Space
that will probably get eaten up by more tanks one of these days. I was
beginning to wind down the fish room for the winter, but this recent
high demand for angel fish caught me completely off guard. During a time
when many of us are squeezing our wallets to put food on the table and
stay warm, we still find a way to buy more fish.

MG

[Mister Gardener]

Decaps that are only decapsulated enough to lose the crunchy shell and hatch very quickly as compared to whole eggs are the only kind that make sense to me. Once I get the first batch of "normal" eggs going I have a continuous supply of fresh baby brine shrimp which are ready to be eaten in 18-20 hours. Whether the food is alive and swimming or manufactured and buoyant, such as Golden Pearls, I put a lot of value on making my fry swim to get their food rather than retrieve it from the bottom.

Every now and then I notice my Espie's rasboras in a classic spawning chase for a few hours and hope that maybe just a few of those eggs will grow into something. The heavy planting should help, but so far no luck. One of these days I'm going to set up a long, shallow tank for them with java moss and marbles and see if I can get results with the zebra style setup.

MG

[Frank Bayne]

From: Altum Pt.a...@gmail.com

Um...he makes it up?  If there is a chemical reaction with brine
shrimp egg coating that is specific to chlorinated tap water, it's an
oxidation reaction, not acid-base.

 

            The hypochlorous acid in chlorine is the oxidizer. I should have known Altum would jump on that one.

Point is, it doesn't take much to dissolve that transparent embryo outer layer. Been thinking about the photo of the angelfish fry passing the de-cap. When the brine shrimp eggs are going through the decapulation, it's a ready-set-go type of thing. While in the bleach solution, the cysts first turn a gray/white as it's being dissolved, and orange/red when the decapulation is over in 3 to 4 minutes. I think it's more likely that the fry in the photo ate an egg the had not been fully de-caped. Forgot now, but he said the fry were 3 or 5 weeks old. For the first 2 weeks I feed the unhatched brine shrimp embryo (it contains more nutrients than the swimming nauplii). Before I started using de-caps, when removing the newly hatched baby brine shrimp, once in a while you get an unhatched egg, or cyst shell mixed in. The newly hatched fry cannot digest or pass the unhatched cyst (or hatched cyst shell). The fry can't get the stuck egg out of their mouth, so it dies. At 3+ weeks, angelfish fry are large enough to pass the egg, but for those first couple of weeks, there were always a % of fry lost due to a cyst, or cyst shell. I don't have that happen using the de-caps...

 

 

I haven't been following this thread too closely, because I'm not much
of a fish breeder.  My fish breed as they please, and fry are often
partly grown on all the micro-fauna that lives on live plants by the
time I discover them.  (Got some more gold tetras growing up.)  If I
have a fish I really want to raise, I feed BBS.  To me, decaps are to
BBS as dried beans are to sprouts.  There is a lot more vitamin and

nutrient content in the sprouts than the bean.            --Altum

            I never had planted tanks - couldn't keep the plants alive. I never had a tetra of any kind, spawn for me, unless I set-up a breeding tank for them. You must have real soft water with a low pH - must be nice. I have two pair of MGs tie-dye koi that have paired off over 6 weeks ago, but haven't spawned. I was just telling MG at the end of the week, that I was dropping the pH and soften the water in their tanks this weekend in hopes for a spawn. I hate to have to do that as the fry tanks will also have to be played with - gets to be a lot of work and time spent on messing around with the water............ Frank

[Donna Camp]

Happy to read that Mrs G is home and the puppies are happy. Nice that you can relax by getting your fishy maternity and youth wards organized. I'm betting even the Angels are so happy to have Mrs G home that they'll reward both of you with some nice spawns.

 

Donna

[Donna Camp]

Ah Frank. Messing around with fishy couples and the resulting maternity and youth wards gives you and Mr G an excuse to stay in warm rooms with hands in warm water instead of going outside and making snowmen!

 

Donna

[Mister Gardener]

It's wicked cold out thay-uh! I got the big cookstove roaring with warm a few hours ago. I can't imagine living with out a woodstove, there's nothing that warms the bones, the heart and the soul like a good woodstove.

Frank's problems with the non spawning Tie Dyes may be because he is not playing the right music for them. With the big speakers setting right on the tank edges, mine are treated to the full experience of great music like Bolero and Romeo and Juliet. Lately they've been getting into some classic Joan Jett, Patti Smith, and Blondie. I wonder if Frank even bothered installing a sound system in his fish room. Perhaps he could sing to them?

MG

[Tynk]

What a gem you are Frank. ; )
All it takes is soaking them in tap (untreated) tap water for 1-2.
Look at what's been learned in this thread.
That's what it's all about.

[Tynk]

On Dec 14, 6:54 am, Mister Gardener <mistergarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:

> It's wicked cold out thay-uh! I got the big cookstove roaring with warm
> a few hours ago. I can't imagine living with out a woodstove, there's
> nothing that warms the bones, the heart and the soul like a good woodstove.

Hey Mr. G,

Did you get hit with that ice storm?
The other side of the country is getting hit by a good snow storm.
I have family in WA state. When they get a good snow it's like
everyone takes a snow day to play.
Snow you can deal with even when not used to it.
Ice storms, while they make the trees and meadows breathtakingly
beautiful, so much more dangerous.

I loved the picture I got when in another post you spoke of being
sandwiched between the dogs. ; )
Missus' G's service dog was probably out if it's mind with worry while
she wasn't home.
Cut to a nice warm glow of the fire, cozy Mr. and Missus G, and 2
happy dogs. That's a Christmas card picture!

[Mister Gardener]

Mister Gardener wrote:
> The two methods will have a different impact on the digestibility and
> nutrition of the shrimps. I have made a concerted effort to withhold
> comment on the articles at Angels Plus, primarily because they are
> technically competitors of mine and I don't want to put down
> competitors. The article cited above certainly raised my eyebrows, but
> as I said, I'll keep mum about it and certain other things that I
> don't agree with. Angels Plus raises good angels and does a good
> business. And like virtually all outstanding breeders, they have their
> own ways of doing things. They hatch their eggs under bright lights in
> very hard water. I'm glad it works for them, but I don't agree it is
> the best way for everyone.

Finding information that is not heavily weighted by whichever company is
paying for the article is not easy. I've found that certain University
and Government marine biology departments have published some useful
unbiased information based on the scientific work performed at the
department and referencing other solid scientific sources. It's my
understanding that a scientific fact needs to be based on procedures
that will produce the same results every time they are executed by other
scientists and individuals with the required facilities. The University
of Florida Extension provides numerous papers on food fish as well as
ornamental fish. I have many of these pdf files in my library and the
linked article on Artificial Incubation of Fish Eggs reminded me of
another bit of misinformation at the Angels Plus web site - the
incorrect assertion that fish eggs are not light sensitive. Not only are
fish eggs sensitive to light, they can be affected in ways that will
influence their development all the way to adulthood.

Once I land on the University of Florida Extension site I get lost for
hours wandering about and reading all sorts of neat stuff about
fishkeeping both commercially and privately.

http://www.cheboygancoop.com/animalscience/aquaculture/fa-32.pdf

MG

[Tynk]

On Dec 14, 9:08 am, Mister Gardener <mistergarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:

The University
> of Florida Extension provides numerous papers on food fish as well as
> ornamental fish. I have many of these pdf files in my library and the
> linked article on Artificial Incubation of Fish Eggs reminded me of
> another bit of misinformation at the Angels Plus web site - the
> incorrect assertion that fish eggs are not light sensitive.

They don't claim that.
I can quote their article as long as AngelsPlus is given credit for
it...

<<Many of the "experts" also say to keep the angelfish eggs dark, to
cover them with a towel, or to use very heavy doses of Methylene Blue.
We never make an effort to darken our angelfish hatching jars (which
sit directly under bright lights) and you already know our hatch rate.
Light may be a factor in less than ideal conditions, but if everything
is kept clean, light will probably have little effect.

Being that the distance between the bright lights and the hatch jars
is not known, and I couldn't find a picture of it...one might assume
the lights to be 4 inches above the jars, or they could be 12 feet
above them. We just don't know.

Not only are
> fish eggs sensitive to light, they can be affected in ways that will
> influence their development all the way to adulthood.

Angels Plus is talking specifically about angelfish eggs, as I am, not
general "fish eggs".
Sure there are types that are quite sensitive to light. Some require
periods of pure darkness to hatch.
Angelfish are not one of those types, and that myth is often tossed
around as fact.
That doesn't mean a super bright light inches away from the eggs
wouldn't harm them.
It means you really don't have to go to any extremes to keep
angelfish eggs very dark, or even in pure darkness.

>
> Once I land on the University of Florida Extension site I get lost for
> hours wandering about and reading all sorts of neat stuff about
> fishkeeping both commercially and privately.
>
> http://www.cheboygancoop.com/animalscience/aquaculture/fa-32.pdf
>
> MG

I read it and they don't get into too much detail about it, and is too
general.

[Frank Bayne]

From: Tynk TY...@aol.com

............bottom posted..........

<<Many of the "experts" also say to keep the angelfish eggs dark, to
cover them with a towel, or to use very heavy doses of Methylene Blue.
We never make an effort to darken our angelfish hatching jars (which
sit directly under bright lights) and you already know our hatch rate.
Light may be a factor in less than ideal conditions, but if everything
is kept clean, light will probably have little effect.

Angels Plus is talking specifically about angelfish eggs, as I am, not
general "fish eggs".
Sure there are types that are quite sensitive to light. Some require
periods of pure darkness to hatch.
Angelfish are not one of those types, and that myth is often tossed
around as fact.
That doesn't mean a super bright light inches away from the eggs
wouldn't harm them.
It means you really don't have to go to any extremes to  keep
angelfish eggs very dark, or even in pure darkness.

          I guess this is one of those things that work for some, and don't work for others.  Angelfish were the fish that got me started into the hobby, and turning my basement into my first 'fish room'. For my first few years as a breeder, from the pairs I had, produced every different kind of angelfish where was. I was the first in the area to get marbles and golds when they first came out. I removed the egg slates from the breeding tanks and hatched them in wide mouth gal. jars, which were on a shelf with a 2 tube flor. shop light above it, for viewing. Everybody that raised angelfish that took the eggs from the pair to hatch, used a drop or two of meth. blue in their hatching jars. Those first years, there were two of us that sold angelfish to every pet shop within a hundred miles in and around St. Louis (Mo. USA) - Bob C. and I. Bob C. always seemed to out do me when it came to breeding fish - any kind of fish, including all the different kinds of angelfish. My third year of breeding and wholesaling fish to all the stores, a friend of mine and I opened our first pet store, and I stoped selling the fish I bred to most of the other pet shops. That's when Bob C. told me what he did that was different than what I was doing with my fish eggs. Bob C. put 6 drops per gal. of meth. blue, 2 drops of 5% chlorine bleach in his hatching jars, and covered the jars with a cardboard box. (Back then, we didn't have the fungus medications we have today - salt or meth. blue were used.) And he changed 50% of the water in his hatching jars daily. So - I switched over to doing it his way and found that I had a much better hatch rate. Can't tell you if it was the large amount of meth. blue, the bleach, or the cardboard box that made the difference, but I do believe keeping the eggs in total darkness had something to do with it. I do know if something works, why fix it............ Frank 

[Tynk]

On Dec 14, 10:46 pm, Frank Bayne <frankr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>           I guess this is one of those things that work for some, and don't work for others.  Angelfish were the fish that got me started into the hobby, and turning my basement into my first 'fish room'. For my first few years as a breeder, from the pairs I had, produced every different kind of angelfish where was. I was the first in the area to get marbles and golds when they first came out. I removed the egg slates from the breeding tanks and hatched them in wide mouth gal. jars, which were on a shelf with a 2 tube flor. shop light above it, for viewing. Everybody that raised angelfish that took the eggs from the pair to hatch, used a drop or two of meth. blue in their hatching jars. Those first years, there were two of us that sold angelfish to every pet shop within a hundred miles in and around St. Louis (Mo. USA) - Bob C. and I. Bob C. always seemed to out do me when it came to breeding fish - any kind of fish, including all the
>  different kinds of angelfish. My third year of breeding and wholesaling fish to all the stores, a friend of mine and I opened our first pet store, and I stoped selling the fish I bred to most of the other pet shops. That's when Bob C. told me what he did that was different than what I was doing with my fish eggs. Bob C. put 6 drops per gal. of meth. blue, 2 drops of 5% chlorine bleach in his hatching jars, and covered the jars with a cardboard box. (Back then, we didn't have the fungus medications we have today - salt or meth. blue were used.) And he changed 50% of the water in his hatching jars daily. So - I switched over to doing it his way and found that I had a much better hatch rate. Can't tell you if it was the large amount of meth. blue, the bleach, or the cardboard box that made the difference, but I do believe keeping the eggs in total darkness had something to do with it. I do know if something works, why fix it............ Frank 

I totally agree that this will be a time to agree to disagree.
I would, however, wish that (on this forum) that mentioning something
like there is some debate on the issue, and it is your preference.
That way the reader can choose to look into it further if wanted.
Every batch I raised were hatched under normal tank lighting. There
was the addition of meth blue, as well as some Tetra's Black water
tonic.
These addition dim what light gets to the eggs, but the lights were on
as normal.
When cutting with RO water, no need for black water tonic...so water
is even less dark.
I've also hatched batches without using any meth blue. I picked any
unfertilized eggs off with a toothpick, or if left to the folks to do,
they'd eat any.
The main reason I just don't buy the keep them in darkness thing, is
because what I've seen with my own eyes. Not even including my own
spawns hatched, but the old breeder where I got my DD blacks from. His
name was Paul, and well known in my area for the best quality angels
anyone's seen, and still haven't seen better.
There's breeders at the GCCA (I think that's right, The Great Chicago
Cichlid Association?) that remember him, and they all make the same
face as I do remembering his stock. This solemn look and big sigh that
follows, ending with the usual....can't find angels like his anymore.
I was lucky enough to be invited to his home business after he sold
his warehouse (Discus, Angelfish hatchery).
Both places were set up the same. Rows and rows of tanks. Hundreds of
tanks. It was truly awesome to be able to see this part of the hobby
on a large scale like this. It was like Willy Wonka's factory for
kids, only for me a fish version. = )~
Having perfect tap water where he was at, the only additive was meth
blue. Nothing was done about lighting. He had row after row of shop
lights along the ceiling.
Paul had the best angels hands down. The species took a hard hit when
he went loony. He guarded his secret foods that he made, and all his
other trade secrets fiercely.
So sad that his entire stock was left to die by his father. So sad.
The species sure could have used those fabulous bloodlines of his.
For him to raise such quality without doing anything to keep eggs in
the dark cements my view about it being more of a myth.
I can totally see how somebody who was taught that way and never
seeing breathtaking - quality angels that were hatched with no regard
to darkening the eggs, would continue believing in it.