How to clean tank after fish TB

[Kim]

Hi all!

I have been reading this site for a few months now and have learned a
lot. My husband and I bought our 6 year old daughter a 12 gallon
freshwater tank for her birthday in May. Of course it is my
responsibility to tend to it. We had 2 guppies, a swordtail and a
molly. We think the swortail, the last to join the tank was infected
with 'fish TB' and we are now down to one fish, the molly, I assume
she will start to show signs of illness soon. How do we clean the
tank so that we can start over? Do we need new filters, rocks, plants
(plastic)? Also, where do all of you buy fish? Petco's tanks are a
mess, ich, fin rot, dead fish. I got our fish at the LFS, and brought
home TB. Thanks!

[NetMax]

From my limited understanding of the subject, the extent of the
sterilization depends on the type of pathogen (and accurate
identification is not a trivial matter) and the duration that the tank
will be left empty (no fish = no host = no pathogen eventually).

Fish TB (if that's what it is), is not normally sterilized against.
This is an internal disease which many fish carry and may not ever
manifest itself until there are other stressors involved (old age,
other pathogens etc). However Dropsy (a category of internal
bacterial diseases) can have very contagious strains which need to be
sterilized against.

The generic method of reseting a seriously diseased tank is to remove
& discard the substrate, filter media and water. Remove all ornaments
and replace or wash in water with bleach, rinse and let dry (also the
fish nets). Plants are replaced or sterilized in specialized solution
(the name escapes me) though a mild bleach dip (1:20) can also be used
on sturdy plants. Refill and add bleach to the water, run the filter
for an hour. Then empty, rinse, empty, rinse, empty and then let
dry. When you set up the tank again, double dose the de-chlor
(against any bleach you missed).

For 'suspect' tanks, same as above except replace bleach with hot
water and allow everything to completely dry (dehydration is very
effective at killing aquatic pathogens). Don't use hot water on your
real plants though ;~)

In regards to where to get fish... Guppies are notoriously fragile
(bred in hot salted water, they are not expected to last long in
freshwater at tropical temperatures). The Swordtail could have died
from..? The 2st order of business is to match fish to your water. If
there is some hardness and a reasonable pH, then Platies should last a
while. Very hard water and you can add more Mollies. Softwater would
suggest danios or tetras.

New tank syndrome or osmotic shock would have weakened any new
arrivals, causing a delayed illness. There are several aspects to
answering your question thoroughly.

hth
NetMax

[Frank Bayne]

---

From: Kim <k_f...@hotmail.com>

 

        Fish TB (mycobacteriosis), is hard to 'clean up' after.. The tank and

anything your going to keep that was in the tank, along with the filter, nets,

siphon hoses, etc. needs to be disinfected with a strong chlorine solution

and then sprayed with rubbing alcohol - surgical spirits (isopropyl) and let

to air dry before using it again.

I would not buy from the big box stores if you can help it - look for a good

small pet shop...................Frank

[Tynk]

On Sep 22, 9:39 pm, Frank Bayne <frankr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> ________________________________

>
>         Fish TB (mycobacteriosis), is hard to 'clean up' after. The tank and

> anything your going to keep that was in the tank, along with the filter, nets,
> siphon hoses, etc. needs to be disinfected with a strong chlorine solution
> and then sprayed with rubbing alcohol - surgical spirits (isopropyl) and let
> to air dry before using it again.
> I would not buy from the big box stores if you can help it - look for a good
> small pet shop...................Frank

I had fish TB hit my tanks years back.
It was horrible. I had to watch a few breeding pairs of angels die,
along with the rest of the fish I had. Some I had to euthanize myself.
It was so hard to put down the last mated pair. They were mine that I
bred, they were the prized perfect pair...and I had to kill them or
let them suffer.
I was changed after TB ran through my tanks.
I, an angel breeder, couldn't even bring myself to buy new stock and
start over. It took me years before I could even look at them in shops
without tearing up.
At the time it hit my tanks there we didn't the internet. = O
Doesn't that sound so odd now a days, hehe.
I couldn't find any real info out there, and our library didn't have
enough books on fish diseases.
Back then the John G. Shedd Aquarium in Chicago, IL used to have a
time slot where you could talk to one of their aquarists for help. I
had help directly from their head freshwater aquarists, Bill (at the
time).
He was such a help.
I was told that all the fish would be infected....even in other tanks
if my hand or equipment went from the infected tank to another (which
of course it did).
Fish can either have active or dormant TB. Active has obvious symptoms
- which there are several that mimic other diseases.
Some will be carriers and live like normal for years....then all of a
sudden come down with active TB.
All are carriers and spread it...active or dormant...doesn't matter.
After all fish are dead - either by euthanizing fish that are
suffering or dying, you need to bleach everything that can be.
Toss out what can be easily replaced (filter cartridges, etc).
You can also spray with rubbing alcohol on items that cannot be soaked
in bleach water. Things like your tank's hood, your hands before
touching anything after touching infected tank items or water....
Bill told me to think about it like it's the plague. The germs are on
everything and can be spread easily, so then everything must be
sanitized. That includes your hands and arms.
When I was sterilizing from TB I had a spray bottle that had isopropyl
alcohol in it.
I wish I had one of those booths you see in a movie that you go in and
your entire body is sanitized.
I didn't have live plants at the time, so I don't know what can be
done to sterilize them.

[Kim]

Thanks for the info! The molly still seems healthy. I'm assuming it's
TB because the symptoms match up, wasting away/ no appetite, hiding/
resting on the bottom, curved spine. We added the fish one at a time
so we wouldn't get a strong cycle. We used the 'drip method' to add
them to the tank and kept lights off for their first day. I'll have to
look in other towns in the area to find a better fish shop.

Has anyone tried the fishless cycle and how did it work?

Kim

[Frank Bayne]

From: Kim k_f...@hotmail.com

Has anyone tried the fishless cycle and how did it work?
Kim

 

          Fishless cycling works great. The tank and filter goes through a full cycle in a lot

less time, without stressing or killing your fish. Back in my pet store days, we used to use

a 5 gal. bucket to pre-cycle filter media, so we had it on hand for our customers that

bought a new tank and filter. Everyone seems to have their own and better way to do a

fishless cycle, so I'll stick my 2 cents in here. Raise the temp in the tank to at least 80º, 82º

is even a little better as the bacteria will reproduce a little faster. Seed the tanks filter with a

little established filter media from an established filter, and add 5 or 6 drops per gal. of pure

ammonia, and that's it. The tank should cycle within 10 days to two weeks. A lot of people

'feed' pure ammonia every day to their filter, but by doing so, you chance what is called a

"never ending cycle". By adding 5 to 6 drops of pure ammonia per gal. one time, the ammonia

level within the tank will be 5ppm, more than enough to support a full fish load once the tank

has cycled. Also, by 'feeding' the filter ammonia daily, the cycling time is a lot longer, if it ever

ends at all! Before you go through all the above, you might see if your new pet shop will

give you enough established filter media to fill your filter - thus your filter would be pre-cycled.

................Frank

 

[Frank Bayne]

From: Tynk <TY...@aol.com>

On Sep 22, 9:39 pm, Frank Bayne <frankr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
 

                   .........mid posted..........

I had fish TB hit my tanks years back.
It was horrible. I had to watch a few breeding pairs of angels die,
along with the rest of the fish I had. Some I had to euthanize myself.
It was so hard to put down the last mated pair. They were mine that I
bred, they were the prized perfect pair...and I had to kill them or
let them suffer.

 

 

           *First time I saw fish TB, it wiped out all the fish in our first store.

That's when you learn the net your using goes into some kind of 'net dip'

before it goes into another tank. The disease lasted about a month before

we decided to euthanize the remaining 1/3rd of the fish still in the tanks and

and start over. And you think you had a tear in your eye - we opened or first

store with right at 400 tanks of fish! I still go through "tearing up" when I

think back upon it, and that was 40+ years ago! I was young and had every

penny I could come up with in that store. Needless to say, we had the largest

tropical fish store in St. Louis at the time that wasn't a wholesale house, with

sick fish for a month, and no fish for another month, tiring to come up with

enough money to buy another shipment of fish - took darn near that long to

disinfect everything. On top of that, over half our staff walked out on us, 

because it was a disease called - - - - - - T B ! They, our staff, came back,

after we had everything disinfected and they seen we were still alive. If I

could have gotten away with killing somebody, that and when my first wife -

- - - - never mind, won't go there.

 

I was changed after TB ran through my tanks.
I, an angel breeder, couldn't even bring myself to buy new stock and
start over. It took me years before I could even look at them in shops
without tearing up.
At the time it hit my tanks there we didn't the internet. = O
Doesn't that sound so odd now a days, hehe.
I couldn't find any real info out there, and our library didn't have
enough books on fish diseases.

 

 

           *Second time around, it ended up being anggelfish aids, or whatever

they ended up calling it. I had stopped breeding angelfish and had sold my

breeders the year before. But, we still had the pet stores. By then, we had

opened our 4th or 5th store. Angelfish aids had the same symptoms as fish

TB, but only infected angelfish. We had a 100 gal. show tank behind the

counter with a dozen fair sized angelfish in it when the angelfish aids hit. I got

a jump on the disease, thinking it was fish TB again, killed all the fish in the tank

and disinfected it. Within a few days, angelfish in all of our stores were dying or

dead, along with all the other stores in town. By that time, I had dumped another

dozen tanks of fish, thinking it was fish TB. By the time I found out it wasn't

fish TB again, I had pulled half the hair out of my head! ..........Frank

 

 

[Kim]

What a devastating disease! I had never heard of fish TB until I had
to figure out what was wrong with our fish. I also don't feel like
starting over (we really just began), but for my daughter's sake I
think we will.

>At the time it hit my tanks there we didn't the internet. = O
>Doesn't that sound so odd now a days, hehe.

I can't imagine not having the internet to turn to, thanks everyone
for your 2 cents! I'll think of cleaning 400 tanks or a 100 gallon
tank while I'm scrubbing away on my 12 gallon, won't make me feel so
bad.

Kim

[Mister Gardener]

I've read that pet stores that chronically have fish that die when you get them home have one or more tanks with Fish TB. And it's wicked stubborn to get rid of in a pet store setting. My LFS was having trouble keeping certain sensitive species in some of his tanks and I mentioned the TB article I had read. He mumbled that he already knew that and guessed it was time to take some tanks off line and put his employee to work doing thorough "sterilization" on those tanks. As with some other stubborn pathogens, "TB" can go unnoticed until a sensitive or immune-compromised species as added to the tank. Which can mean a lot of species that have recently been shipped from a mass production farm.

I've been meaning to ask - - what do people use for a net dip solution? I've read that simple air drying is effective, but I don't know . . .

MG

[Frank Bayne]

From: Mister Gardener misterg...@email.toast.net
      ...........Mid posted............

I've read that pet stores that chronically have fish that die when you get them home have one or more tanks with Fish TB. And it's wicked stubborn to get rid of in a pet store setting. My LFS was having trouble keeping certain sensitive species in some of his tanks and I mentioned the TB article I had read. He mumbled that he already knew that and guessed it was time to take some tanks off line and put his employee to work doing thorough "sterilization" on those tanks. As with some other stubborn pathogens, "TB" can go unnoticed until a sensitive or immune-compromised species as added to the tank. Which can mean a lot of species that have recently been shipped from a mass production farm. 
  

 

           * When we had our big fish TB die off, we were shipped sick fish,

and we, or our local vet couldn't cure them. The cure was simple - we

never bought from that supplyer again. Out of the 100s upon 100s of

over sea shipments we got through the years, I can only remember the

one time fish were shipped with TB. Back then, most of the pet shops had

quarantine tanks set-up in a back room to receive fish shipments, and a tank

of fish in the front showroom that became diseased was moved to the back

room. I just don't see supplyers shipping sick fish. Most of the time people

that have their fish die, or even become sick, within a few days of bringing

them home from a pet shop, did it themselves. Now-a-days pet stores

guarantee their fish, some for up to three weeks. All they want before

replacement is a sample of the water and the dead fish. They do a little testing

of the water, and replace the fish, right out of the tank of fish that the people

bought from! Now, if something was wrong with the fish the first time around,

why do the fish in the pet shop still look good? First killer of newly bought fish

is Osmotic Pressure Shock and a close second is Columnaris Disease.

          

I've been meaning to ask - - what do people use for a net dip solution? I've read that simple air drying is effective, but I don't know . . .   MG

        

         *Formaldehyde, 3% bleach or what I use, potassium permanganate......

Frank

[Tynk]

On Sep 23, 12:33 pm, Frank Bayne <frankr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Snipped

I kept getting an error message when trying to send this post...a few
times. So, if it shows up a bunch of times I'm sorry. = /

>
> *First time I saw fish TB, it wiped out all the fish in our first store.
> That's when you learn the net your using goes into some kind of 'net dip'
> before it goes into another tank.

Oh Frank!
All those fish.
Yes, you learn real hard sometimes.
Over the years I've cross contaminated more than once. Once was the TB
throughout the tanks in the house, and then a couple more times with
something that only affected Bettas.
The last time I did it with what I think was a betta-only virus...it
just took a second. I did it while feeding. I fed the quarantine tank
and without thinking went to the female betta tank. As soon as the
dropper hit the water I realized what I did and whipped it out. I
barely squeezed the plunger/bulb thing but it was enough to spread the
disease.
It's times like that when you really wish you kick yourself right in
the tush!

The disease lasted about a month before
> we decided to euthanize the remaining 1/3rd of the fish still in the tanks and
> and start over. And you think you had a tear in your eye - we opened or first
> store with right at 400 tanks of fish! I still go through "tearing up" when I
> think back upon it, and that was 40+ years ago!

:::Big hug::: = / I'm tearing up from just reading what you went
through.
Just terrible.

> *Second time around, it ended up being anggelfish aids, or whatever
> they ended up calling it. I had stopped breeding angelfish and had sold my
> breeders the year before. But, we still had the pet stores. By then, we had
> opened our 4th or 5th store. Angelfish aids had the same symptoms as fish
> TB, but only infected angelfish. We had a 100 gal. show tank behind the
> counter with a dozen fair sized angelfish in it when the angelfish aids hit. I got
> a jump on the disease, thinking it was fish TB again, killed all the fish in the tank
> and disinfected it. Within a few days, angelfish in all of our stores were dying or
> dead, along with all the other stores in town. By that time, I had dumped another
> dozen tanks of fish, thinking it was fish TB. By the time I found out it wasn't
> fish TB again, I had pulled half the hair out of my head! ..........Frank

My angels were hit with the angel virus (aka angel aids, angel plague,
and angel virus) and were all killed.
I had just made the decision to switch to only black veils. I had just
bought a bunch of young stock and then a week later they're all dead.
Dealer replaced all.....all those died....etc. We remember what we all
went through trying to figure out why our fish were dying.
OH man that was so darned frustrating.
I went through the angel virus first, and then years later after
getting back into angels....then I learned what fish TB was.
I had many more fish that I was emotionally attached to when TB hit.
Years after the TB, I was hit with the angelfish virus again!
A local chain was bringing in imported angels and it started all over
again. However, this time it had been so long since the original
epidemic hit that many of the folks in the hobby didn't know anything
about it. The "not so smart" chain store being nationwide and getting
their angels from the same imported source.....well it didn't take
long before it was across the US.
Angels today seem to be more adapt at fighting off the virus
themselves.
TB on the other fin....that's are sneaky, wicked one for sure.
It's almost common in pet shops and the hobby.
It can hide.....never to be seen for years.
Then...when you least expect it baam! You have fish dropping dead all
over. Some have sunken bellies, some bloated bellies....others have
fins rotting, or black areas, another has a gaping hole in it's body
and another's spine is now like this ~ instead of like this -- .
TB can be sneaky and mimic a different disease. You think you're
treating a fish for worms, or fin rot, but it's not.....
I really did not like the factoid about it being transferable to
humans. It's not human TB for those that are freaking out right now,
hehe.
That's why all Frank's employees took off when they heard the word TB.
I'm still careful to make sure I don't have any cuts or open wounds on
my hands/arms before putting them into my tanks.
We can get a rash that doesn't heal.
Some......very rarely though, have real trouble with it.
I was on a fish message board from AOL yrs ago and a lady on that
board had a bad reaction to it.
She had a horrible rash all over her arms and the medication didn't
work....She had a real hard time getting over it.
That's the worst case scenario though....the one in a billion it can
happen too.
We don't need to wear a rubber suit before doing a water change, but I
would wear rubber gloves while doing anything with an infected tank,
while disinfecting, and always when I have an open wound on my hand or
arms.
That's important to remember.....
It doesn't matter if your tanks don't have TB in them. Treat them as
if they do when you have a cut, scrape, etc.

[Frank Bayne]

From: Tynk TY...@aol.com

Oh Frank!  All those fish.

:::Big hug:::  = / I'm tearing up from just reading what you went
through.   Just terrible.

              *Fingers crossed - I haven't had a wipe-out in years. Sometimes

you just plan lucky finding out what caused it. My 2nd year into the hobby,

before we opened out first store, I was a happy basement breeder with

over 100 tanks and lost almost half my fish, both breeders and grow-out

tanks. Luckily, there were three of us in the fish club that pooled our money

together to buy supplies. We had bought a 500' roll of air hose and each

replaced some of the stiff hoses to our tanks. The supply house had some-

one spray for bugs and had sprayed the air hose. If it weren't for all three

of us having a large die off at the same time, we would have never figured

out what was going on.

             Another time I have to look back and smile, was a few months

before that. Had racks of 2 and 3 high fish tanks in rolls in the basement.

At one end of the 3' wide walk between the rolls of tanks, I had set-up a

target, so I could practice with my hand gun. I got to where I could hit a

dime size ring on the paper target. The bullet would go through the paper

target, hit a 1/4" steel plate set at a 45º angle, and down into a sand bed.

A friend was over and I showed him what a good shot I was - him saying

"anybody could hit the target taking a few seconds to aim". "If it were a

person going to shoot back, you can't take the time to aim". So he set the

gun on the washing machine, with his back to the target, grabbed the gun,

spun around, and shot the glass front out of my 180 gal. plywood tank, in

less than a half second.The force of the water pushed the roll of tanks on

the other side of the walkway over, which brought down the most part of

the next two rolls of tanks. Half the basement floor had an inch of water on

it, with fish all over the place. Almost lost more tanks than fish by the time I

netted what I could catch, putting them into the nearest tank that wasn't

broke. With two 4" nets and a dust pan, it took hours. My buddy slipped

out before I could shoot him. He had just finished boot camp and was on his

way to Vietnam. Didn't see him until he had got back, 3 years later. That's

when President Richard Nixon 'froze' the men in over there for an extra year.

                    ............snip...........

I really did not like the factoid about it being transferable to
humans. It's not human TB for those that are freaking out right now,
hehe.
That's why all Frank's employees took off when they heard the word TB.
I'm still careful to make sure I don't have any cuts or open wounds on
my hands/arms before putting them into my tanks.
We can get a rash that doesn't heal.
Some......very rarely though, have real trouble with it.
I was on a fish message board from AOL yrs ago and a lady on that
board had a bad reaction to it.
She had a horrible rash all over her arms and the medication didn't
work....She had a real hard time getting over it.
That's the worst case scenario though....the one in a billion it can
happen too.
We don't need to wear a rubber suit before doing a water change, but I
would wear rubber gloves while doing anything with an infected tank,
while disinfecting, and always when I have an open wound on my hand or
arms.
That's important to remember.....
It doesn't matter if your tanks don't have TB in them. Treat them as
if they do when you have a cut, scrape, etc.

 

              *I never had gotten fish TB, however, I have had Fish Handler's

Disease a couple of times. As bad as it is, I sure wouldn't ever want to go

through a bout with fish TB............... Frank

[Daniel Morrow]

Mid and bottom posted.

Mister Gardener wrote:
> I've read that pet stores that chronically have fish that die when you
> get them home have one or more tanks with Fish TB. And it's wicked
> stubborn to get rid of in a pet store setting. My LFS was having
> trouble keeping certain sensitive species in some of his tanks and I
> mentioned the TB article I had read. He mumbled that he already knew
> that and guessed it was time to take some tanks off line and put his
> employee to work doing thorough "sterilization" on those tanks. As
> with some other stubborn pathogens, "TB" can go unnoticed until a
> sensitive or immune-compromised species as added to the tank. Which
> can mean a lot of species that have recently been shipped from a mass
> production farm.
>
> I've been meaning to ask - - what do people use for a net dip solution?

A product called net soak is sold for this - I think the brand is jungle.

> I've read that simple air drying is effective, but I don't know . . .
>
> MG
>
> Frank Bayne wrote:

>> *From:* Tynk <TY...@aol.com>

>> On Sep 22, 9:39 pm, Frank Bayne <frankr...@sbcglobal.net

>> <mailto:frankr...@sbcglobal.net>> wrote:
>> .........mid posted..........
>> I had fish TB hit my tanks years back.
>> It was horrible. I had to watch a few breeding pairs of angels die,
>> along with the rest of the fish I had. Some I had to euthanize myself.
>> It was so hard to put down the last mated pair. They were mine that I
>> bred, they were the prized perfect pair...and I had to kill them or
>> let them suffer.
>> *First time I saw fish TB, it wiped out all the fish in our first store.
>> That's when you learn the net your using goes into some kind of 'net
>> dip'
>> before it goes into another tank. The disease lasted about a month
>> before
>> we decided to euthanize the remaining 1/3rd of the fish still in the
>> tanks and
>> and start over. And you think you had a tear in your eye - we opened
>> or first

>> store with right at 400 tanks of fish! I _still_ go through "tearing

>> up" when I
>> think back upon it, and that was 40+ years ago! I was young and had
>> every
>> penny I could come up with in that store. Needless to say, we had the
>> largest
>> tropical fish store in St. Louis at the time that wasn't a wholesale
>> house, with
>> sick fish for a month, and no fish for another month, tiring to come
>> up with
>> enough money to buy another shipment of fish - took darn near that
>> long to
>> disinfect everything. On top of that, over half our staff walked out
>> on us,
>> because it was a disease called - - - - - - T B ! They, our staff,
>> came back,

>> _after_ we had everything disinfected and they seen we were still

By the way - my friend's betta is doing great now - the culprit was that
he was feeding him a common betta flake food and it always floated on
the surface for a long time and the betta would eat those flakes and the
air that was on the flake’s topside kind of clinging to the top (dry)
part of the flake, so the betta was eating both the flake and air and
that made him slightly bloated and caused him to float uncontrollably
(the air in his stomach caused him to do this). So the fix? He bought a
pellet betta food called betta bites and he has never had any more
problems since switching. I do wonder if that is a chronic (not much
health related) problem with bettas and thought I would share the fix
with everyone to help solve other peoples problems (it seems like I read
about bettas having this problem all of the time). Good luck all and later!

[Andy Gratton]

You would of thought that  the Betta  would have been ok  taking  in air  considering  it is specially adapted to accept oxygen from the atmosphere by use of the labyrinth organ, 

Given  all the years of  commercial breeding  and possibly less wild caught  fish  in the hobby, maybe  Betta's are evolving and use of the Labyrinth organ  is becoming defunct , jmho

2009/9/25 Daniel Morrow <vide...@ccountry.net>

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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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[Mister Gardener]

Wouldn't losing air breathing ability be reverse evolution?

[Andy Gratton]

I agree   totally   but  who knows what goes through the devious minds of fish  lol

2009/9/26 Mister Gardener <misterg...@email.toast.net>

[Tynk]

On Sep 26, 4:35 am, Mister Gardener <mistergarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:

> Wouldn't losing air breathing ability be reverse evolution?

Absolutely it would be.

[Tynk]

On Sep 26, 1:27 am, Andy Gratton <anglerfis...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> You would of thought that  the Betta  would have been ok  taking  in
> air  considering  it is specially adapted to accept oxygen from the
> atmosphere by use of the labyrinth organ,
> Given  all the years of  commercial breeding  and possibly less wild caught
> fish  in the hobby, maybe  Betta's are evolving and use of the Labyrinth
> organ  is becoming defunct , jmho
>

Don't forget at the breeder's they're still in small containers. They
need to use their labyrinth organ still.
Bettas being kept as pets are often kept in oxygen depleted vases /
bowls...so they're going to be using it.
If all bettas were to be housed in pristine, well oxygenated waters
from the time they hatch, until they day they die...all of them over
the world.....then maybe they'd start to lose the function of that
organ.
Even gouramis still have the use of it, and they're hardly ever kept
like a betta.

[NetMax]

On Sep 26, 6:35 am, Mister Gardener <mistergarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:

> Wouldn't losing air breathing ability be reverse evolution?

No, it all depends on your perspective and what the environment is
doing. Adaptations are always towards survival or advantage. Think
about the few surviving dinosaurs; crocodile and alligators, and their
fortuitous re-adaptation to water.

Returning to Bettas... these fish are highly adapted to surface
conditions (eating off it, breathing around it, making bubble nests
etc), so I'm surprised that they would swallow air to their
detriment. There might be more to this story, but I wouldn't be
surprised if it was bad genes producing 'stupid' fish, because
'pretty' is what they are basically line-bred for.

Swallowing air is a real problem for deeper water fish kept in
aquariums (like Frontosa) or for fish with poorly positioned air
bladders (like fancy goldfish), but it should not be for any top-
feeders, especially any of the Anabantidaes (Bettas, gouramis etc).
jmo

NetMax

[Frank Bayne]

---

From: Tynk TY...@aol.com

         * ROFLMAO - some crap bait, just to get somebody going, and hooked two!

Big 'grin' goes here.    ;~)     ;~)    Old guys pull that stuff all the time, and this one is

not only old, but a hippy writer!           ................... Frank

 

[Daniel Morrow]

Bottom posted.

Andy Gratton wrote:
> You would of thought that the Betta would have been ok taking in air
> considering it is specially adapted to accept oxygen from the
> atmosphere by use of the labyrinth organ,
> Given all the years of commercial breeding and possibly less wild
> caught fish in the hobby, maybe Betta's are evolving and use of the
> Labyrinth organ is becoming defunct , jmho
>
> 2009/9/25 Daniel Morrow <vide...@ccountry.net

> <mailto:vide...@ccountry.net>>

>
> Mid and bottom posted.
>
>
>
> Mister Gardener wrote:
>
> I've read that pet stores that chronically have fish that die
> when you get them home have one or more tanks with Fish TB.
> And it's wicked stubborn to get rid of in a pet store setting.
> My LFS was having trouble keeping certain sensitive species in
> some of his tanks and I mentioned the TB article I had read.
> He mumbled that he already knew that and guessed it was time
> to take some tanks off line and put his employee to work doing
> thorough "sterilization" on those tanks. As with some other
> stubborn pathogens, "TB" can go unnoticed until a sensitive or
> immune-compromised species as added to the tank. Which can
> mean a lot of species that have recently been shipped from a
> mass production farm.
>
> I've been meaning to ask - - what do people use for a net dip
> solution?
>
>
>
> A product called net soak is sold for this - I think the brand is
> jungle.
>
> I've read that simple air drying is effective, but I don't
> know . . .
>
> MG
>
> Frank Bayne wrote:
>

> *From:* Tynk <TY...@aol.com <mailto:TY...@aol.com>>

> On Sep 22, 9:39 pm, Frank Bayne <frankr...@sbcglobal.net
> <mailto:frankr...@sbcglobal.net>

> <mailto:frankr...@sbcglobal.net

Hey there Andy! I think what happened is that the betta was swallowing
air that went into it's stomach instead of the labyrinth organ (the
labyrinth organ is located pretty much in the head of the creature,
maybe a little towards the back of the head, according to my brief web
search with google), and that's what caused the betta to float
uncontrollably, the betta I am sure has control of whether the food /
air goes into it's stomach or the labyrinth organ and so if food has air
attached to it via surface tension the betta chooses to have the food /
air go into it's stomach instead of it's labyrinth organ. Summary =
bettas appear to prefer food in it's stomach instead of it's labyrinth
organ even if it has air attached to it via surface tension. About
reverse evolution - I saw something on the news recently that scientists
have recently discovered that something like a species can't reverse
evolve into a different species so the only way is to evolve forwards,
or (I can't remember which exactly) life can't reverse evolve only
forward evolve, or that life can not become extinct from reverse
evolving. It was one of those at the very least, or something. Only real
value of what I said about reverse evolving is that someone might read
it and research which way it factually is and might learn something from
it, the rest of us will only possibly use it as trivia material. Good
luck all and later!

[Mister Gardener]

Frank - have you been spending too much time alone? Maybe you might consider dropping in at the Senior Center more often. Or perhaps you've been spending too much time at the senior center.

MG

[Tynk]

On Sep 27, 4:32 am, Mister Gardener <mistergarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:
> Frank Bayne wrote:
>
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *From:* Tynk TY...@aol.com <mailto:TY...@aol.com>

>
> > On Sep 26, 4:35 am, Mister Gardener <mistergarde...@email.toast.net

> > <mailto:mistergarde...@email.toast.net>>

> > wrote:
> > > Wouldn't losing air breathing ability be reverse evolution?
>
> > Absolutely it would be.
>
> >          * ROFLMAO - some crap bait, just to get somebody going, and
> > hooked two!
> > Big 'grin' goes here.    ;~)     ;~)    Old guys pull that stuff all
> > the time, and this one is
> > not only old, but a hippy writer!           ................... Frank
>
> Frank - have you been spending too much time alone? Maybe you might
> consider dropping in at the Senior Center more often. Or perhaps you've
> been spending too much time at the senior center.
>
> MG

= )~ Mr. G.
I guess it's all how you look at it.
The way evolution has gone so far...creatures seem to lose what they
stop using.
Some are going to see it as evolving forward....but it can also be
seen as being in "reverse evolution".
When a creature evolves with a certain ability for survival, and then
there's no need for this ability at all...it loses it over time.
It's just another case of - is the glass half full or half empty.
Even if Frank does think it was a joke post, it brings up interesting
discussion. = )

[Chip]

Tynk wrote:
>
> When a creature evolves with a certain ability for survival, and then
> there's no need for this ability at all...it loses it over time.
>
>

I can think of many examples where this is false, your appendix, dark
skin when living in areas with little strong sun, humans or dogs strong
sense of smell and taste, can you cite any positive examples?

Chip

[NetMax]

LOL, perhaps an adaptation is removed only when it's in the way of a
newer different adaptation.

NetMax

[Daniel Morrow]

Mid posted.

Chip wrote:
> Tynk wrote:
>>
>> When a creature evolves with a certain ability for survival, and then
>> there's no need for this ability at all...it loses it over time.
>>
>>
> I can think of many examples where this is false, your appendix, dark
> skin when living in areas with little strong sun, humans or dogs
> strong sense of smell

"It looses it over time." = chip - those examples you mentioned could
all be in the process of being lost. No one said evolution or devolution
happens spontaneously and immediately. These things can take time. Maybe
someone else here could cite a factual example? I can't think of any
traits not lost when not needed. Good luck all and later!

[Mister Gardener]

Fish in the wild and a group of the same species raised exclusively in aquaria for eons are unlikely to evolve in the same manner.

Humans in the US are supposed to be protected from reverse evolution by the constitution, but this is obviously not being enforced when one looks at a large sample of the Republican and Democratic parties.

MG

[Tynk]

Humans used to have a need for fur.
The climate changed, and we stopped needing it. Humans then lost it
over time.
Our skin still has remnants of when he it. Goosebumps are a left over
from when humans had fur.
Think about when the fur on a dog or cat is raised....well if we had
fur still those little reactions all over our skin would be raising it
just like a dog or cat.

[Tynk]

On Sep 28, 2:21 pm, Chip <chip.a.w...@gmail.com> wrote:

Well the first link would be considered positive...
The latter was interesting as well.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/05/080520-fish-evolution.html
http://www.scientistlive.com/European-Science-News/Genetics/Reverse_evolution_in_real-time/21527/

[Chip]

Actually, no. Neither one has positive results clearly pointing out
reverse evolution. The 2nd one even says their experiment didn't show
it. The 1st one has strong counter examples that would indicate that
simply clearing up the lake is not the cause. Since evolution is ALL
things (including evolution itself) leading up to the present, I don't
believe reverse evolution is possible.

Chip

[Chip]

Interesting, but when did humans need fur for survival? They evolved in
Africa, quite warm and comfy w/o fur. Your example is a fine case for
my argument. We still get goosebumps when they serve absolutely no
survival purpose. We haven't lost them over time.

Chip

[Gill Passman]

Hmmmm......but if you carry on the point that they/we lost the fur
because of the climate in Africa (ie. warm and comfy if furless)
then why haven't other species living under similar conditions also
become furless? IIRC goosebumps do serve a purpose but I can't
remember without a bit of googling exactly what it is but I don't
think it was to do with hackles.....

I would have thought that the question is about regressive genes
coming to the fore depending on the environment - which I would
say is still evolution as it is adaptation to condtions and driven by
survival, even though it is not a consious choice (sub-consiously it
could be argued that it is through
selective breeding with a certain gene pool being the best suited for
purpose) - an example would be leaving the water in order to take
advantage
of other food sources or to escape predators....and returning if the
odds for survival would be better that way.....I don't think you could
call it reverse evolution - at best it
could be called regression, but as the whole purpose would be to
ensure the continuation of a species then it is still evolution.....

Think I might be rambling - lol
Gill

[Daniel Morrow]

Mid posted.

In my opinion fur can serve another purpose such as physical protection
(if not so effective compared to armor) protecting the creature from
cuts and scrapes therefore preventing infections, etc. Think sharp rocks
when considering this for example. Cushioning as well preventing broken
bones. etc. Interesting discussion - chips comment reimburses that
trivia I put out here a few days ago - the one trivia piece about me
reading / hearing on the news that reverse evolution is impossible, at
the very least in certain way(s). Good luck all and later!

[Chip]

Maybe we discovered how to control fire and didn't need fur. Maybe
the hairy apes still need to raise their hair to appear bigger and
meaner or sexier. I don't know the reasons, but humans have lots of
vestigial things and haven't lost them, which is my point.

Chip

[NetMax]

If I understand Chip correctly, reverse evolution is defined as losing
a function no longer used. This makes sense. Evolving forwards
(towards what works best in an environment) may include reverse
evolution if that's what's needed, as former abilities are much easier
to adopt than abilities never had.

Going with that thinking, if we moved to living underwater, we would
not lose our legs unless those appendages would better serve us as
fins (which they would). Changing to fins would probably come more
naturally to us than developing wings to fly as feathered wings would
not be an option in our past to chose from.

NetMax

On Sep 29, 11:58 am, Chip <chip.a.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tynk wrote:
>
> > On Sep 28, 2:21 pm, Chip <chip.a.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Tynk wrote:
>
> >>> When a creature evolves with a certain ability for survival, and then
> >>> there's no need for this ability at all...it loses it over time.
>
> >> I can think of many examples where this is false, your appendix, dark
> >> skin when living in areas with little strong sun,  humans or dogs strong
> >> sense of smell and  taste, can you cite any positive examples?
>
> >> Chip
>
> > Well the first link would be considered positive...
> > The latter was interesting as well.
>

> >http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/05/080520-fish-evolution...
> >http://www.scientistlive.com/European-Science-News/Genetics/Reverse_e...

>
> Actually, no.  Neither one has positive results clearly pointing out
> reverse evolution.  The 2nd one even says their experiment didn't show
> it.  The 1st one has strong counter examples that would indicate that
> simply clearing up the lake is not the cause.  Since evolution is ALL
> things (including evolution itself) leading up to the present, I don't
> believe reverse evolution is possible.
>

> Chip- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Chip]

NetMax wrote:
> If I understand Chip correctly, reverse evolution is defined as losing
> a function no longer used. This makes sense. Evolving forwards
> (towards what works best in an environment) may include reverse
> evolution if that's what's needed, as former abilities are much easier
> to adopt than abilities never had.
>
> Going with that thinking, if we moved to living underwater, we would
> not lose our legs unless those appendages would better serve us as
> fins (which they would). Changing to fins would probably come more
> naturally to us than developing wings to fly as feathered wings would
> not be an option in our past to chose from.
>
> NetMax
>
>

OK, let's try to straighten this out. There are two different
discussions going and I commented on both.

One is the statement that life will lose what has evolved if it is no
longer necessary for survival of the species. I contend this is false
and gave many counter examples. I have yet to see a positive example.
The adaption of fins to limbs is not. We still have a monkey tail, just
much shorter.

The other is the concept of "reverse evolution" which is regaining
something once adapted out in evolution when the environment changes
back toward the original. My opinion on this is still out, some
examples seem to show this, but not strong enough yet for me.

Chip

[Tynk]

On Sep 29, 12:00 pm, Gill Passman <g...@taylorpassman.co.uk> wrote:

>
> Hmmmm......but if you carry on the point that they/we lost the fur
> because of the climate in Africa (ie. warm and comfy if furless)
> then why haven't other species living under similar conditions also
> become furless? IIRC goosebumps do serve a purpose but I can't
> remember without a bit of googling exactly what it is but I don't
> think it was to do with hackles.....
>

Well the raising of hairs ( IE when we had a need for fur), according
to many scientists was more about warmth.
Raising the hairs slightly would be like adding a little insulation.
Also for fright or fear...some think it was also done to appear
larger, but most believe it had more to do with keeping warm.

[Tynk]

On Sep 29, 10:07 am, Chip <chip.a.w...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Interesting, but when did humans need fur for survival?  They evolved in
> Africa, quite warm and comfy w/o fur.  Your example is a fine case for
> my argument.  We still get goosebumps when they serve absolutely no
> survival purpose.  We haven't lost them over time.
>
> Chip

It wasn't always warm and toasty.
Maybe we will lose this ability....only time will tell. = )