Discus spawning and wrigglers
Muruk
I have a pair of Discus that seem to enjoy each other's company enough
to have had two lots of eggs that have hatched and become wrigglers at
which point they become parental snacks. I think I know the
underlying cause which I cant really fix until I have my second tank
up and running properly (still brand new and not fully filled as yet).
I believe the cause to be the water circulatiing in the tank is
causing the wrigglers to become dislodged from the uplift pipe of the
UGF (I know these aren't popular but I seem to have no problems with
them) and when they are fluttering around the parents try to return
them to the pipe.
After several flights (?) they become food I hope inadvertantly. The
water flow isn't what I would call high as any flake food that hits
the current is only gently pushed across the tank and all the fish
have no difficulties sitting side on to the flow.
I purchased this cannister filter eons ago and have no idea as to it's
flow rate but I think it is barely rated for the 4ft tank.
What is the consensus of the group? Is it possible that the fry are
being lost due to being dislodged from the pipe? If that is the case
then in the breeding tank I will only use sponge filters until such a
time as the fry are free swimming. Any thoughts will be greatly
appreciated.
Cheers
Greg
Melissa Phillips
them stop all water flow in the tank until the fry are strong enough to
swim against a gentle current on their own, from a sponge filter. They
do water changes daily to make up for no filtration.
Marksfish
young until they get the hang of parenting. For some fish, the sight
of wigglers is too much for them and they succomb to the temptation,
but they will improve. All breeders that I know have at least a well
matured bubble up filter in the tank, no filter is too much of a no no
really as unprocessed waste wil build up. If after 5 or 6 attempts
they are still being eaten, you can try to cover the eggs with a mesh
that will allow the wigglers time to hatch out, digest their yolk sac
and then find the parents. Do you keep a light on at night? Wigglers
can and do regularly get lost travelling from cone to parent, if this
happens and the parent sees it somewhere else in the tank, it is
probably going to be lunch.
Mark
Muruk
Hi Mark
I cant say for sure how old the fish are as I purchased them from the
local LFS at different times and they had no idea as to the age.
Leaving the light on is a good idea, I had thought to leave the light
on in an adjoining area the first couple of nights but that got turned
off last night. The parents have moved the fry to a couple of
different locations in the tank now and this morning I think they have
been moved deep inside the log so I couldn't see them.
If this lot of fry end up dissapearing I was thinking to move the
parents into their own tank so I can set up some sponge filters with
the view to removing the parents when (and if) they have fry reach the
free swimming age. If this lot of fry do survive would it be best to
leave them where they are and hope for the best or move them into the
new tank?
Cheers
Greg
Marksfish
looking at your kneecaps, they prefer to see your face, especially if
they have young. Another answer could be to put a piece of card over
the front glass when the wigglers are young to prevent "spooking" the
parents. I saw this in a breeders shop where the fish happily bred in
front of the public, but the card was put up for a week or so to
prevent any eating.
It would be best if the parents were in the tank on their own. With
other fish present, there are always chances of the fish sensing
danger and devouring the fry, this is why they are constantly moving
the brrod in an attempt to keep them safe. It is always best for the
fry to stay with their parents until about 14 days after becoming free
swimming. This way they get the best nutrition from the parent's
slime, any longer and they start taking chunks out of the parents.
During this time, they are still small enough to be seen as food by
any other fish in the tank. If you are able to, can you buy a cheap
plastic divider to put in your exisiting tank? This should keep the
other tank residents at bay and give your parents some peace of mind.
Mark
Muruk
issue should be ok in fact there isn't much traffic near the tank at
anytime as it is tucked away to a side of the room where it is visible
but not to close to high traffic areas. For this spawn I think I will
keep the fry with the parents in the community tank until they reach
the two week mark as you suggested and then if any have survived I
will move them to the new tank as suggested. If none survive I will
move the parent fish to their own not so luxurious surroundings
(almost bare tank with few plants I am thinking). In reality though I
am thinking that I am going to require yet another tank.
One for the community, one for the breeding and a new one for growing
out of the fry. It starts to escalate doesn't it! I wonder what the
wife will think?????
Mister Gardener
ROOM for the fry. Oh, you said you have a spouse to contend with. Better
work on just one new tank a week. Get to know your local dollar store and
Sterilite tubs.
MG
Melissa Phillips
> In reality though I
> am thinking that I am going to require yet another tank.
> One for the community, one for the breeding and a new one for growing
> out of the fry. It starts to escalate doesn't it! I wonder what the
> wife will think?????
>
. . . and then another for the next batch of fry . . . and then
another for the next batch of fry . . . and then another for those few
gorgeous babies you want to grow out and keep . . . and then another
for their fry . . . and so on and so on:)
Muruk
home tonight there wasn't a one left :-(
It looks like my pressing urgency has been removed however I aim to
move the breeding pair into their own 190L apartment in the next week
or so. Now to start smooth talking the spouse into letting me have
one of the bedrooms????
Thankyou all once again for feedback and constructive suggestions.
Cheers
Greg
Mister Gardener
> one of the bedrooms????
If you can't take over one of the bedrooms, you could set up tanks in your
own bedroom. Been there, done that. Missus Gardener suggested it, in fact.
I'm a lucky fish guy to have her for a lifemate/wifemate.
MG
Muruk
Well it loooks like my pressing urgency to set up the second tank has
returned! The discus fish have done it again, this time with more
eggs than before. They are still in the community tank and I am
halfway through (almost) cycling their new home. I have to admit that
I am surprised that this lot came on to the scene so quickly as it has
only been 5 days between the last lot of wrigglers being munched and
this spawn. Is this kind of turn around usual? If so I dont think I
am going to require a room to dedicate to growing out tanks but rather
a hotel!! :-)
Cheers
Greg
Mister Gardener
angels spawn every ten days, on average. Each spawn is 300-500 eggs, and
nearly all survive when I remove them and hatch them in their own container.
I never worry about cycling a tank for youngsters - they get 80-100% water
changes daily, water straight from the tap with a shot of dechlor. As they
grow in their 20 gallon tanks, the sponge filters gradually get ripe; by the
time the fish are a few weeks old, the mature filter allows me to reduce my
water changes to every 2 or 3 days. Your parent and baby discus, if you keep
them together, will benefit from daily huge water changes - fresh water is
more important than cycled water. But it has to be changed daily.
Have you got room all picked out for your new hotel?
And btw, I've been intentionally discouraging my adult angels from high
production by dropping their water temperature 2 degrees and cutting back on
their feedings. A plentiful supply of high quality food, especially high
fats, like bloodworms, helps the egging up process and signals to the adults
that this is a good time to make babies. Light feedings of ordinary flake
food slows down their reproduction urge considerably.
MG
Muruk
That is a great idea I wouldn't have thought of, I have been giving
them frozen blood worm and brine shrimp regularly. If I cut that down
and only continue with the flake then perhaps it will have the effect
of slowing down their spawning interval. I wonder just how succesful
this lot of fry are going to be.. I will keep you posted.
Cheers
Greg.
Mister Gardener
around 10 days or 2 weeks now. When I want them to spawn again, I'll do a
50% water change, refill with 75 degree water and set their heater to warm
it to 84 F. Two or three days in a row of this and they're back in full
production.
When you read about spawning your fish, Discus in this case, note the
"triggers", and do the opposite. Until you're ready for more.
MG
Muruk
do the opposite of what is recommended :-)
Cheers
Greg
On Jun 12, 10:27 pm, "Mister Gardener" <mrgarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:
Mister Gardener
> do the opposite of what is recommended :-)
OK. Just don't follow my advice too too closely. I'm referring to inducing
or encouraging spawning here, not other routine aquarium maintenance. Your
interest in spawning Discus seems to have been seriously aroused, which is
great. Even if you don't get into spawning in a big way, the knowledge of
the reproductive instincts of your fish can only lead to a deeper
appreciation of the hobby. One of the books I have on Angels comments that
Angel care is like Discus care, but Angels are more forgiving. Someone here
pointed out that this was too broad of a generalization, and I agree. The
behaviors are similar, but they are two different species. I recommend you
begin looking for some Discus specific information on the web and in books
devoted to the species. I've never gone that route, (yet!), but I'm sure
that some of our members can direct you to some good titles.
MG
Muruk
new tank (48 x 15 x 18h). I have had it on cycle (sounds like a
washing machine) for the last two weeks with a group of 4 white
mountain clouds plus uneaten flake food providing the fertilisers .
Water parameters are soft,nitrates at 0 and ph approx 6.7. I moved
the fish last night and they were not happy about it and were still
sulking in the corners of the slate tiles this morning. However both
have been eating the frozen blood worms I gave them so I think that is
a good sign. So hopefully in a few days they will both have settled
down enough to get back into the mood for breeding.
The more I think about this breeding of the fish the more I realise
that MG is right on the money about the qty of tanks I am going to
require if I am going to try and grow these fish up to any size.
Perhaps I should be praying that I dont get huge amounts of fry out
any particular spawn. I can see this snowballing in a huge way.
Cheers
Greg
Marksfish
tank to keep your breeding pairs in was at the minimum 24"x 15"x 15"
and better still 24"x 15"x 18" to allow for the extra height (LxWxH).
Anything bigger and the fry can get lost from their parents. Maybe you
could put a divider in the tank so that the parents have one half,
then you have the other side to grow the fry on? Don't forget the
spawning cone (although mine would only ever spawn on a piece of
bogwood).
Good luck with the breeding, don't forget to keep us informed.
Mark
Muruk
I was wondering about the tank possibly being too big, my thoughts
were more about the fry finding the food when they became free
swimming from the parents more so than them getting lost. Makes you
wonder how they ever got on in nature without intervention :-)
I will certainly keep everyone informed. At the moment one of the
discus is not talking to me at all, it hides away everytime it sees me
coming. I thought they were supposed to have a fairly short memory
retention time period but this one obviously thinks I am going to move
it away again every time I approach.
Cheers
Greg
Muruk
from work last night so I have turned off the faster moving filtration
and now have a couple of twin sponge filters operating in the tank
(they have been operating all the time) so I guess I now wait and see
if they get into the free swimming stage this time. Their last spawn
reached the point of eating off the parents backs before they
disappeared. I still have the four whit cloud mountain minnows in the
tank and am tossing up if they should be removed or left there.
Fingers crossed
Cheers
Greg
Mister Gardener
> tank and am tossing up if they should be removed or left there.
> Fingers crossed
> Cheers
> Greg
I'd get those white clouds out of there ASAP. They'd be happier in a cooler
tank anyhow, assuming you are keeping the discus in the 80's F range.
MG
Muruk
Hi Guys,
The spawn has moved on into the wriggler stage and I am expecting them
to be on the parents' backs by the time I get home tonight. It is
intriguing (to me at least) that the same pattern of development
hasn't varied by even a day between the spawns. Obviously if the
parameters are always the same the end results shouldn't vary at all
but all the same I was kind of expecting some variation.
So get rid of the white clouds is the better choice? I will scoop
them out tonight and try not to upset the discus too much. It should
be easy to do as I will do it after the lights have been off for a
while and use a small torch and net.
MG, with your experience with Angels' fry what would you recommend as
a first food to try with these fry assuming they get that far? I was
contemplating the BBS, egg yolk strained through a stocking and even
some of the commercial fry food that comes in a tube. Another issue
is that both my partner and I work full time so a midday feeding is
not going to be possible so I am going to need something that can
eaten throughout the day without fouling the tank too much. Any
pointers you could give me will be greatly appreciated.
Cheers
Greg
Donna Camp
Donna
Mister Gardener
I don't think I can offer a lot of help, not only because Discus and Angels
are two different birds, but because you are providing an environment much
different than I provide for my baby angels. All of my babies get live baby
brine shrimp exclusively for the first 3 or 4 weeks, then I begin to
introduce finely crushed flake food or meal, which has the consistency of
flour. My babies are in 3 gallon containers, so I have to do 90-100% water
changes daily. Feeding babies has to be kind of messy, with uneaten food
leftover each day, regardless of tank size. If there are no leftovers, then
I'm not feeding enough. On those occasions when my brine shrimp hatch messes
up, I feed frozen foods, Cyclops and Daphnia are both small enough for the
babies and they take them readily. I haven't tried the squeezed hard boiled
egg, although I have fed raw egg yolk when there was nothing else in the
house. If you feed non living foods, try to feed them a little at a time
with a dropper to create the sense of motion to attract the babies'
attention. Once they realize what that powdery stuff is they will happily
pick it off the bottom of the tank or wherever it is. There is no reason to
vary the foods at this early stage unless you are trying to make up for a
food that is missing some important nutrients. Look for high protein, 50% or
above, and high fats or lipids, 12% or higher. These are essential for
quick, healthy growth.
The timeline for all of my spawns is predictable, as you are finding out
with your spawns. Of all my spawns, only one has varied from the schedule,
by reaching the next step a day ahead of time all the way through their
development. This consistency allows me to be prepared for the next stage,
whether that stage is, adding a sponge filter to supplement the airstone,
starting up the first batch of baby brine shrimp because I know they will be
ready to eat tomorrow, or having a larger tank ready to move them in to as
they grow.
If you will be leaving some kind of light on in the room with the babies,
perhaps you can reverse their day and night by feeding just before you leave
in the morning, as soon as you get home from work, and late at night. If
you're a night owl, a midnight feeding would balance their artificial day.
Regarding the white clouds, I would have no other fish in the tank except
the parents.
Raising strong, healthy babies is not difficult, but it requires attention
to detail and time. I was not able to devote myself properly to breeding
fish until after I had retired. And there are still some days when I get a
late start or have an appointment at the wrong time and the fish get
shortchanged for the day.
Good luck and keep us posted. Sorry I couldn't help more. We need a discus
person here.
MG
NetMax
get in all the feedings. I think their schedule, or the time between
each stage, is only varied by the temperature of the water, hotter =
faster.
~~
On Jul 2, 7:41 am, "Mister Gardener" <mrgarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:
Mister Gardener
> Feeding raw egg yolk?
Yeah. I'm ashamed to admit it. I read about it on the internet so it must be
true. Commercial liquid fry food is little more than powdered eggs.
> Clever idea on switching their day for night to
> get in all the feedings.
I worked the late night shift most of my life.
> I think their schedule, or the time between
> each stage, is only varied by the temperature of the water, hotter =
> faster.
> ~~
Ah yes. Should have mentioned that. Mine are very predictable, but so is the
water temperature in my tanks. Since I discovered that when I turn on the
hot and the cold water fully, the resulting temperature is 80-82 degrees,
temperature stability has become pretty easy.
(I hope I don't regret saying that. Better go check that all my heaters are
functioning.)
MG
Marksfish
> them out tonight and try not to upset the discus too much. It should
> be easy to do as I will do it after the lights have been off for a
> while and use a small torch and net.
You may find that any interference inside the tank by you at this
stage will see the fry eaten by the parents. It would have been better
to remove them before the eggs were laid, or at a push while the eggs
were still forming.
> MG, with your experience with Angels' fry what would you recommend as
> a first food to try with these fry assuming they get that far? I was
> contemplating the BBS, egg yolk strained through a stocking and even
> some of the commercial fry food that comes in a tube.
The fry will feed on the parents mucus for about 10 days before they
need removing. At about 5- 6 days, you can feed them live baby brine
shrimp in an attempt to wean them from the parent's backs. You can
then add frozen BBS and cyclopeeze into the mix until you have them
totally off the BBS. You can then start to wean them onto bloodworm,
finely chopped beefheart mix or fine flake. In the UK, there is a
small pellet based food which is high in protein for growth that can
be fed from about 3 weeks.
>Another issue
> is that both my partner and I work full time so a midday feeding is
> not going to be possible so I am going to need something that can
> eaten throughout the day without fouling the tank too much.
While they are still on the BBS, I did see a feeder that allows a
small amount of shrimp to be continuously fed to the tank throughout
the day. That said, the young fish really need to be fed about 6 times
a day for the first 6 months to help them achieve their growth
potential and don't forget the water changes!!
I remember reading an experiment that Jack Wattley carried out where
he had two grow out tanks and one batch of fish. Each tank was fed
exactly the same amount of food daily but tank 1 had a 50% daily
change and tank 2 a 100% change daily. After one month, the fish in
tank 2 were twice as large as the fish in tank 1.
Gon't forget the pics!!!!!
Mark
Muruk
assimilate. I removed the white clouds last night and this morning
there are a lot less fry to be seen. I did notice that they were
scattered all over the tank so I am thinking that the tank divider
idea by Marksfish is something I am going to have to use in the
future. Hopefully during the course of the day more fry will turn
up. Luckily I am a bit of a late nighter so I am going to try with
using a night light in the room, late night feed, 6:00 am feed and
then one at the end of work at about 6:00pm. Pictures?? I can
certainly take a few and post them.
Cheers
Greg
Muruk
As promised I have uploaded a picture of the parents and fry. All seem
to be doing well at the moment.
Thankyou everyone once again for your assistance.
Cheers
Greg
Mister Gardener
The September issue of Aquarium Fish International magazine arrived in the
mail a couple of days ago and I thought you might be interested in an
article on breeding discus. Like most articles in AFI, it's geared to the
beginner hobbyist, but I find that I can often learn something new in the
most basic of articles. The author recommended that no other fish be in the
tank with parents and fry and that vigorous water circulation is to be
avoided. According to the article, discus parents "call" their babies to
them, for feeding or safety, by a distinctive shake of their bodies. The
water movement from other tankmates or an aggressive filter can disrupt the
parents' signal to the babies and the babies may wander aimlessly and starve
to death, or be snatched by a predator if there are other fish in the tank.
It must be true because I read it in a magazine.
NetMax has mentioned the noise that our fish often hear that we are unaware
of, or that we have put into the background and learned to ignore. Filter
sounds, air pump sounds, fluorescent fixture buzz and more can interfere
with a fish's ability to receive and interpret signals from other fish.
It must be true because I read it on TFA.
MG
NetMax
it looks like you'll have a successful spawn on your hands. If you
want to send the file up as a jpg, one of us can resample and compress
it to something smaller, like a 640x480. The large size is not
causing us any difficulty, but a more compact file would favour the
dial-uppers (somehow Discus enthusiasts often live out in the
country).
re: Turbulence & fry upbringing: It was breeding cichlids in my
teenage days (pre-computers) that afforded me plenty of time to watch
cichlid parents coral fry around the tank, primarily to shelter and to
feed. The AFI article understates it. The parents communicate many
ways, and the 'shaking' is how the fry are transferred from one Discus
parent to the other (a behavior unique to Discus).
Sometimes cichlid parents will sit back and calmly signal the fry with
some change in the movements of their pectoral fins. The movement was
almost too subtle to notice, but the fry's almost immediate change in
behavior was the clue when to be watching the parents. While baby
fish are far more obedient that you might expect, the parents did have
a different set of motions for the ones who misbehaved or didn't
follow directions. A typical move was to advance on the fry cloud a
few millimeters and stop suddenly. I think this would cause a strong
single ripple which could penetrate right through to the other side of
the group. Perhaps this was saying "your attention please!", to then
be followed by other motions to direct their activities. Most cichlid
parents are remarkably patient (Angelfish being an exception),
especially when you consider the quantity of fry and that so many
don't listen and just want to go exploring all the time. The mis-
behaving fry are probably an evolved design, as a cloud of fry,
however heroically protected by the parents, is a real target for
predators, and even when the parents are successful in their defence,
there are always other fish lingering around the edges to pick the fry
off during the battle. The wandering fry's poor chances of survival
now become relatively better as compared to his siblings ;~)
Any water turbulence washes out their communications to some extent (I
don't think ballast hum would have much influence though ;~) I kept
my grow-out tanks on sponge filters, and even then I'd turn everything
off for a few hours a day, to include the feedings. The sudden
'silence' helped the parents call their troops to attention.
~~
On Jul 8, 7:58 am, "Mister Gardener" <mistergarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:
Mister Gardener
> re: Turbulence & fry upbringing: It was breeding cichlids in my
> teenage days (pre-computers) that afforded me plenty of time to watch
> cichlid parents coral fry around the tank, primarily to shelter and to
> feed. The AFI article understates it.
Or the tiny bit of information from the article that I passed along was
understating it. Either way, thanks for the first hand observations. (You've
never heard some of my old shoplights.)
MG
Donna Camp
Could you explain something to this person who knows nothing about Discus?
It looks like the fry are hanging onto the parent; is this a part of how
they are raised?
Donna
NetMax
consume. I'm not certain if anyone has been really successful raising
Discus fry away from the parents because of this reason. When a
parent wants a break, they swim over to the other parent and shake the
fry off their back and swim away, leaving the fry to attach themselves
to the other fish.
~~
Donna Camp
Donna
Marksfish
I know that pigeons/ marlboros and the like don't produce so much of a
slime coating as turqs, snakes, browns, etc. A Dutch breeder I used to
be pally with used to remove the eggs from a pigeon spawn and place
them with browns who acted as foster parents with amazing success.
Mark
Muruk
It is interesting reading everyone's thoughts and ideas, I have
noticed the parent fish doing a shake and I was thinking it was more
to rid themselves of the fry as they did it in close proximity to the
other parent. The red fish I think is the female (uncertain as I
haven't witnessed the spawn) as the male is a brown so who knows how
the fry are going to turn out. I will try to get matching coloration
on the fish next time but as this is a first run through for me with
Discus I am happy to just get results and will fine tune things later.
The male does the majority of the feeding (this could be because of
the observation made by Mark), my next step is getting the fry and
parents separated so I will either be putting in a screen or setting
up another tank (luckily I have one that some friends dont want,
though it has yet to be checked out for fish worthiness).
Not to forget that I now (or shortly will) have to perfect the art of
BBS hatching and feeding them to the young.
Cheers
Greg
Mister Gardener
determined that the food supply for the fry is not a mucous layer; "the
outer layer of skin actually swells up" to be eaten by the fry. If the fry
were allowed to continue eating from the parents for several weeks, instead
of the usual week or two, the parent would lose a lot of luster and take
several weeks to recover. It's not like the fry are taking out chunks of
skin or flesh; the outer skin, which was once thought to be slime, is "cream
cheese-like", and the fry simply pick off the surface of the cream cheese.
Interesting reading. Discus and Angel Fish are often mentioned together, but
there are some major differences between them, this fry feeding system being
one. I'll have to think about whether Discus or Angels are a step ahead on
the evolution ladder.
MG (I've quoted heavily from AFI, I hope they view this as complimentary,
rather than infringing.)
Mister Gardener
> Not to forget that I now (or shortly will) have to perfect the art of
> BBS hatching and feeding them to the young.
> Cheers
> Greg
If you've never done it before, now's the time to start. Yesterday is even better. Few people get all the variables right on the first try, or the second or third. I've had my system down pat for a long time, and just a couple of days ago I got a bad hatch and had to take a look at my steps to figure out what I did differently. I think I found it. I'll know when I check this morning’s hatch. Quality eggs is the most important factor for me. I've never gotten good eggs from any pet store. So many beginners get frustrated and give up when the root of the problem was in the eggs, not the technique. I've gotten my best eggs, and other foods and hatching supplies, from http://www.brineshrimpdirect.com/
MG
NetMax
much reading on Angels, Discus..): 1) has anyone figured out a way to
raise Discus fry from eggs, away from other fish? and 2) is there any
other fish which uses the Discus skin feeding technique?
When I read about really unique animal characteristics, it stirs my
imagination, like how we were only 1 species and a bit of bad luck
away from never seeing this, and how many other really bizarre
characteristics have gone unseen by humans because it was unique to
only one species of animal?
~~
On Jul 9, 7:54 am, "Mister Gardener" <mistergarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:
Mister Gardener
> much reading on Angels, Discus..): 1) has anyone figured out a way to
> raise Discus fry from eggs, away from other fish?
I'm not reading specifically Discus literature, so I haven't come across
that yet. But am curious.
2) is there any
> other fish which uses the Discus skin feeding technique?
Beats me. Someone here probably has the answer.
> When I read about really unique animal characteristics, it stirs my
> imagination, like how we were only 1 species and a bit of bad luck
> away from never seeing this, and how many other really bizarre
> characteristics have gone unseen by humans because it was unique to
> only one species of animal?
I read a lot. As you may have surmised. I tend to go on binges, where I seek
out and devour every bit of writing available from a specific author, and I
read nothing but that author until I've completed his or her complete works.
Some years back, I went on a Charles Darwin binge, including an unofficial
biography written by his brother after Charles died. I think that binge got
started when my father died, and my mother changed the remaining 3 years of
his National Geographic subscription to me. My imagination remains stirred,
rekindled as we have been seeing increased media interest in the questions
of evolution, creationism, and intelligent design. I can only imagine the
incredible impact Darwin must have had on the scientific, religious, and
philosophical community in his day. Fascinating stuff when you stir it all
together.
There is one piece of Darwin's writings that I have never found. If anyone
knows where I can find his treatise on earthworms, I would be most
appreciative.
If you're wondering where I turned for my next binge after finishing Darwin,
it was the Bible.
MG