Preventing OTS with occasional extra water changes.

[videoman]

In light of recent discussions here about OTS, DOCs, TDSs, osmotic
shock, permanent gill damage, etc. I have come to the conclusion that
once every few months 10 percent water changes once a day for a week
or 10 days should eliminate OTS from ever happening. My conscience has
been nagging me about this because of my water changes normally being
20% every 2 weeks might very well slowly but continuously build up
DOCs, etc. and if I don't do my above plan might cause OTS, possibly
badly, so I am happy I know what to do to prevent it. 20% water
changes weekly leaves behind 30 days of DOCs so my aquariums will have
a lot of DOCs now before my above plan and possibly despite my
biowheels. I just don't see how wet / dry filtering can eliminate THAT
much DOCs so I have reason to be proactive about all of this. Right
now I would recommend the above plan to everyone - any experts want to
comment (frank, netmax, Altum, anyone?)? This could really boost my
confidence in my aquarium husbandry. Good luck all and later!

Nikki B. – About your python being too fast at vaccing – if you are
healthy enough you can use a 5 gallon bucket with a cheap smaller
gravity powered gravel cleaning siphon (such as the marineland ones)
in order to have enough time to vacuum all of your gravel without
siphoning out too much water. Good luck all and later!

[Frank Bayne]

      That will work, ...................... in both cases.        Frank

[Ded Objekts In Veevoh]

When it comes to Dissolved Organic Compounds, I think Charcoal rules,
but I wonder about balance and stuff now that my moss filter isn't
growing nearly as fast as when I made it up and my cabomba isn't doing
nearly as well as it does in the wild. I *was* rinsing my moss filter
out every two or three weeks. Now, it just doesn't seem to build up. I
suspect the problem is copper sulphate. I don't know how much sulphate
is in water that has passed through Edmonton's treatment, and I had a
brass pot scrubber in beside my activated charcoal. Then, I read in
the rec.ponds FAQ (http://www.wikifaq.com/index.php?
title=Maintaining_Ponds_and_Aquariums) that parts per BILLION of
copper sulphate can eliminate "algae". I distinguish between moss and
phytoplankton only because one seems to hav a substrate: Both are
algae. In my case, the substrate is a filter that has only been
rinsed. I'm thinking that it might take a lot of water changes at five
percent a day to get copper levels down to parts per billion. I'm not
sure if sulphate levels will ever get down to that. Hmmm. I should
read those test results on tap water more thoroughly.

[Tynk]

On May 6, 5:36 am, videoman <video...@ccountry.net> wrote:


> Nikki B. – About your python being too fast at vaccing – if you are
> healthy enough you can use a 5 gallon bucket with a cheap smaller
> gravity powered gravel cleaning siphon (such as the marineland ones)
> in order to have enough time to vacuum all of your gravel without
> siphoning out too much water. Good luck all and later!

When using a Python and you either need more time to do the cleaning
and less draining of tank water, simply change the shut off valve. You
can adjust the rate of the water flow with that. You should have
enough "suckage"power still to do the job at hand. = )
I use my Python to vacuum the gravel in my 3 gallon Eclipse tanks.
When going to those tank, I just don't open up the shut off valve all
the way.

[Nikki B]

you know i have tried to do that, the problem is while its strong
enough to suck the water it dont seem to pick much up, like i have
some half eaten plant pieces and they dont come up when i shut it half
way. I think i also have to much extra hose on the python, i run it
from my basement up the steps and through a room, and still have a lot
of extra hose, i have looked at it and think i can take a section off
which i might do, its always getting tangled and stuff. In the future
i am just going to clean half of the tank at a time.

tynk, you want to know something funny. I dont know if you remember i
had a betta with a messed up swimmers bladder over a year ago, we had
talked about it back then. I told you back then he could not swim well
or get to the top of the water, i had got a long tank and only filled
it quarter of the way, so he could still get to the top for air and
still had a lot of room length wise, he is going on three yrs and is
still alive. my husband calls him gimpy, but he does fine as long as
the water is not to high he is happy. did not know if you would
remember but thought i would update you.
Nik
glad to see you around

[Tynk]

That is FANTASTIC Nikki! = )
Does he have a plant to hang out on near the surface?
I recently had an elderly betta coming close to the end of his life
cycle, and gave him some Riccia to lay on/in at the surface.
He'd wriggle himself on top of the bunch.
The betta I now have that took his place in that tank does the the
same thing in the plants at the surface.
He's so cute when I open the top to feed. He dives off of it. The
betta next to him is new to plants, new to room to swim, new to clean
water, so everything is WOW to him still. Today, he gets frozen
bloodworms. I can hear now.....with a mouthful of worms...."Oh yeah,
munch - munch, that's good".
The angels, well some of them, enjoyed some fresh, live worms from the
garden. The smallest female I had ate the largest one, and wouldn't
share a bit of it.
Her mate *tried* to share some. However, she ripped it right back out
of his mouth and finished it off.
She is trying to ripen up some eggs, so good for you little mama,
hehe.
I just took some pics of the male bettas, and some other fish too. I
haven't put them on the puter yet, but I'm hoping I have nice shots of
the Halfmoon, and both Delta males that I have. I tried to get a shot
of the albino dwarf bristlenose plecos, but the flash is glaring off
of their white bodies.
I hope I have a good one of them too. They're too cute, yet disturbing
at the same time. = )~

[Nikki B]

That's cool, would love to see the pics.
Yes my little guy has a plant, and loves it. I have wanted to get some
more betta's for a long time i always check while i am out, even
thought about another female tank, but the betta's i have seen while i
am out have not looked to good. I hate getting them at petco, feel
like it encourages them. My friend who had the shop and breed his own
sold his place and the new guy has betta's here and there.
I have been looking if i end up getting some i will post pics, to be
honest i really miss having them around. Craig jokes that gimpy see's
me across the room and gets excited, out of all my fish he has been
with me the longest, i will be crushed when his time comes.
I have never ordered fish online but i have seen some nice betta's
being sold online.
Nikki
I would like to find a black one that would be neat.

> > > the way.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Altum]

Yes, a series of small daily water changes is great to clean up a
tank. A week of 10% changes replaces about half the water in the
aquarium and probably won't stress your fish.

I'm a little curious as to why you change so little water on your
normal maintenance routine. I usually change 30% a week in my tanks.
If you do that, there is no need for a week of 10% water changes like
you're proposing.

--Altum

[Nikki B]

Altum let me ask a question before i even get around to refilling the
120 gal. I take it from what frank was saying i was doing some things
wrong well a few things, and the bad thing is i have always done them
that way. What is a good safe amount to take out and how often to
avoid TDS and the other stuff. I guess 40% was to much and not my
intention just how much i usualy took out, but what is to much or to
little?
With my filters i would rinse them in fish water but only change them
about twice a year, i get the idea of having something before the
sponge to catch bad stuff, and wish i would have thought of that
before, i dont bother with the whisper packaged filters i used filter
floss. A few of my tanks had a sponge that came with them a square at
the bottom.
any thoughts how often do you do yours?
Nikki

> > siphoning out too much water. Good luck all and later!- Hide quoted text -

[Altum]

On May 7, 11:47 am, Nikki B <nikkiboo...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Altum let me ask a question before i even get around to refilling the
> 120 gal. I take it from what frank was saying i was doing some things
> wrong well a few things, and the bad thing is i have always done them
> that way. What is a good safe amount to take out and how often to
> avoid TDS and the other stuff. I guess 40% was to much and not my
> intention just how much i usualy took out, but what is to much or to
> little?

I've never harmed freshwater fish that were established in a tank by
changing water. I HAVE had problems neglecting water changes. I
usually change 1/3 every week or two on large tanks, and 1/2 or more
on small tanks. Sometimes I forget the siphon on the 100g and end up
changing 1/2.

My cherry shrimp are a little different. They're sensitive to dechlor
so 20% works a lot better.

> With my filters i would rinse them in fish water but only change them
> about twice a year, i get the idea of having something before the
> sponge to catch bad stuff, and wish i would have thought of that
> before, i dont bother with the whisper packaged filters i used filter
> floss. A few of my tanks had a sponge that came with them a square at
> the bottom.
> any thoughts how often do you do yours?
> Nikki

I'm not the person to ask. Our tanks are REALLY different. My tanks
have so many plants that the filter mostly moves water around and the
plants do the cleaning. I use a sponge and bio-media in either an
Aquaclear or an Eheim and rinse everything every 1-3 months. I don't
use floss unless I'm trying to polish the water because it clogs
really fast in planted tanks. The only thing I change regularly in my
filters is the ChemiPure, if I'm even using it. Sponges last for many
years.

--Altum

[Mister Gardener]

Altum wrote:

On May 7, 11:47 am, Nikki B <nikkiboo...@comcast.net> wrote:
  

Altum let me ask a question before i even get around to refilling the
120 gal. I take it from what frank was saying i was doing some things
wrong well a few things, and the bad thing is i have always done them
that way. What is a good safe amount to take out and how often to
avoid TDS and the other stuff. I guess 40% was to much and not my
intention just how much i usualy took out, but what is to much or to
little?
    

I agree with Altum that you guys's tanks are really different, but either way, it's hard to change too much water. Your 40% weekly sounds fine for your tanks. It's about what I do on my community tanks, sometimes 60 if Missus Gardener isn't paying attention.

With my filters i would rinse them in fish water but only change them
about twice a year,

When you say you change your filter, what specifically are you talking about? The sponges? The floss bags?

 i dont bother with the whisper packaged filters i used filter
floss.

This worries me. It seems impossible to me to be able to form filter floss into the same density and "evenness of density" as a biobag. I would think you have thinner areas where the water pours through faster and thicker areas where the water goes around, setting the floss up for a dead spot - and dead spots can get really toxic before you begin to smell the stink. And if there are any  areas where the floss doesn't completel reach, unfiltered water goes straight to your sponge, muddying and clogging. How often to you change the floss? I think a dollar a month per biobag is worth the cost, if you're going to run a Whisper. Good filter floss is not cheap. I've tried the fabric stores bags of poly fill and it's lumpy and rough. Clogs quickly.If you don't like the whisper biobags, which are basically the central component of the system, you should consider another brand of filter with media that you like. I think filter floss would be more effective in an ordinary 4 dollar box filter than in a whisper.  Or a Marineland. Or an Aquaclear, etc. Frank's practice of replacing the biobag with a scotch brite pot scrubber makes better sense than filter floss because the scrubber is of even density.

 A few of my tanks had a sponge that came with them a square at
the bottom.

Elaborate? A tank that comes with a sponge?

MG

[Frank Bayne]

Mister Gardener <misterg...@email.toast.net> wrote;

I agree with Altum that you guys's tanks are really different, but either way, it's hard to change too much water. Your 40% weekly sounds fine for your tanks. It's about what I do on my community tanks, sometimes 60 if Missus Gardener isn't paying attention.

 

      40% water change at one time is fine, IF that's what your fish are used to, AND IF your tanks hardness and TDS are about the same as that of the water your replacing. TDS are through the roof (liquid rock) in a tank with crushed shells used as substrate in a Malawi tank. If comming out of the tap, the waters hardness is medium or lower, with a large water change in a Malawi tank would cause some degree of osmotic pressure change - to much of a change would cause some degree of osmotic pressure shock (gill damage), or kill the fish.

.......... Frank

[Nikki B]

you know what i meant, filter have square sponges at the bottom..silly
im really blond...
Nikki

On May 7, 7:47 pm, Mister Gardener <mistergarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:

[Nikki B]

got you, its not the amount its the difference in my tap and tank
water because the pH had to be high because of it being an african
cichlid tank. Well now the 55 Gal is the cichlid tank, and its smaller
so i am doing smaller water changes....well my husband is doing water
changes i am sitting here directing him...
I went and got my youngest son fancy guppies today they are in his
room, plus i got a couple female betta's and a crown tail betta.

Oh my filters the sponge that came with them and i fill the rest with
filter floss, yeah i could replace it more often. Every time i go to
the stupid pet__ in my area they dont have the size i need or they are
out so i just got out of the habbit of buying them. I see what you are
saying, maybe i can order them from some place.
Nikki



On May 7, 8:44 pm, Frank Bayne <frankr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Mister Gardener <mistergarde...@email.toast.net> wrote;

[videoman]

Mid posted.

On May 7, 10:10 am, Altum <Pt.al...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, a series of small daily water changes is great to clean up a
> tank. A week of 10% changes replaces about half the water in the
> aquarium and probably won't stress your fish.
>
> I'm a little curious as to why you change so little water on your
> normal maintenance routine.

It is a bad habit of mine leftover from a long time ago that most
sources (magazine subscriptions at the time) recommended I do. Those
sources had a blanket rule (read like the 1 inch of fish per gallon
rule) of 20 or sometimes 25 percent water changes for every 2 weeks or
even once a month at times (mostly depending on the fish). I have kind
of fallen in love with my bad habit though - much like how people who
smoke can't break their habit. It's so nice to not have to drag out
the equipment every few days or week but I will change that sometime
when I practically can. I need to make more time for my aquariums, I
still spend a lot of time making small changes in the "meantime"
between water changes / gravel vaccing though. Also - I could easily
break my bad habit if I worked out something with myself like gravel
vac once every 2 or 4 weeks BUT siphon water out of the top of the
water column every 3 or 4 days? Straining my eyes over a shallowly
filled bucket looking for fancy guppy fry is difficult and taxing but
has to be done when I siphon water (I siphon it into a bucket for
subsequent partial siphoning and then that shallow inspection to make
sure I don't loose any fancy guppy fry) out of my aquariums or else I
would feel bad for any lost fancy guppy fry. Siphoning top water out
can be done with a piece of foam or ply filter material over the
siphon tube to make sure NO fry are siphoned out but that obviously
prevents gravel vaccing at the same time unfortunately. That is the
biggest reason why I don't gravel vac very often and that tends to
make me change less water. It’s the fry. That sound o.k. to good?
Thanks for the response.

M.G. - The reason someone can sometimes change TOO much water is
because if someone doesn't change much water to begin with then if you
do a big water change you shock the fish, at times to death. That
shock is Osmotic shock and can do permanent gill damage let alone kill
some or all of the fish. There ARE times when you can change TOO much
water and it's something people should be educated about. BUT I guess
I agree with you that people would probably be playing it safe most of
the time by defaulting to changing more water if they don't know. It's
something important to consider. Good luck all and later!

[Mister Gardener]

Nikki B wrote:

you know what i meant, filter have square sponges at the bottom..silly
im really blond...

No - I wasn't trying to be silly. I must have been in a really concrete state of mind last night after a huge seafood dinner. So you meant filters that came with sponges at the bottom? I'm not familiar with this - is it a canister? All I really know are Whispers and Aquaclears, which both come with sponges, and a brief stint with a Magnum 350.

MG

[Mister Gardener]

Nikki B wrote:

I see what you are
saying, maybe i can order them from some place.

Drs Foster and Smith have a sale going on right now - a 36 pack of regulars for $23.19. I'm glad I looked that up because I'm about to order my dogs' summer supply of flea treatment and medication.

MG

[Nikki B]

One of my whispers have a square sponge that fits the entire bottom,
maybe it is my aquaclear i will look today. Then one of my little
whisipers have the same thing. my double sided whispers have reg.
sponges that should fit behind a cartridge which i dont use the
cartridge so i have then behind the filter floss. I seen your post
below i guess i will start to use cartridges again, i guess i had a
lot less problems when i did use them.

I was up till some hour of the night last night doing tanks.....empty,
clean, i started them all over except the 55 gal. the cichlids are in,
i did a water change and got some new water conditioner.
I did lukes tank.. its only a 10 gal. but i got him 5 fancy guppies,
and a ton of java fern, but i think the filter i have in there might
be to strong for those guys and that one has no dial to turn it down.
I got him a iridescent shark also but he has to live in the bigger
tank and not in lukes room, he is a baby but i guess gets big so he
will i guess go in one of the bigger tanks soon.

then i got two female betta's and a male crown tail and i have those
guys in a 29 high also with a bunch of java fern, i watched them and
so far so good, i used to keep one male with my females and never had
a problem. the while/red female is very intrested in him but he wants
nothing to do with her.....i told her not to be aggressive some males
dont like that....
I did not see anything i wanted to put in my 120 gal. petco had to cut
back their stock. They had some angels but they did not look good and
there was a dead one in the tank...so that is what i did.
Oh petco is having a betta beauty contest...yeah big sign up in the
store.
One other thing they must of had close to 100 of those cups of betta's
it seems like a lot to have at one time.
Nikki
now that i went on and on.....


On May 8, 6:06 am, Mister Gardener <mistergarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:

[Mister Gardener]

Nikki B wrote:

One of my whispers have a square sponge that fits the entire bottom,
maybe it is my aquaclear i will look today. 

Sounds like an Aquaclear.

Then one of my little
whisipers have the same thing. my double sided whispers have reg.
sponges that should fit behind a cartridge which i dont use the
cartridge so i have then behind the filter floss.

Just to make sure we're on the same page - whisper bio sponges go closest to the water, the water passes through them last. Fits best when install the biobag first, the sponge last.
Also if you have any whispers that didn't come with a bio sponge, usually the small sizes, you can buy the sponge and frame for less than $4 for any size, including the small sizes. I think it sucks that Tetra doesn't include the sponge with all their filters. It makes such a difference.

MG

[Nikki B]

yeah sponge is closest to me when i am facing it, so water goes though
my filter floss first then the sponge. Yes i got a couple that did not
come with a sponge. I have to replace one of the sponges in ones in my
double sided filters, i will do that this weekend. I am waiting till i
get that all squared away before i start up the 120 gal. again.
I just cant figure out what i am going to do....i might go to elmers
they got a lot of tanks. I heard they have a sale once a month where
everything is pretty cheap....
Nikki



On May 8, 10:17 am, Mister Gardener <mistergarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:

[Mister Gardener]

Nikki B wrote:

yeah sponge is closest to me when i am facing it, so water goes though
my filter floss first then the sponge. Yes i got a couple that did not
come with a sponge. I have to replace one of the sponges in ones in my
double sided filters, i will do that this weekend. I am waiting till i
get that all squared away before i start up the 120 gal. again.
I just cant figure out what i am going to do....i might go to elmers
they got a lot of tanks. I heard they have a sale once a month where
everything is pretty cheap....
Nikki

Beautiful black Pterophyllum scalares would grow huge in a 120.

MG

[Nikki B]

you know something funny i never see any black angel fish around
here...even in some of the bigger fish stores
is that normal?
Nikki

On May 8, 12:00 pm, Mister Gardener <mistergarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:

[Mister Gardener]

Nikki B wrote:

you know something funny i never see any black angel fish around
here...even in some of the bigger fish stores
is that normal?

Yes. That's why I specialize in black. I explain the black thing some on my web site.

MG

[videoman]

Bottom posted.

Hey nikki b. - order some angel fish from mister gardener, weather
conditions are good for it (at least mostly) and his are the best. I
would like to see how well they would do in a 120-galloon tank and see
if that gets me to try it myself. Good luck all and later!