discus fish incompatibilities
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NitroCarbon
Dec 28, 2010, 12:01:11 PM12/28/10
to The Freshwater Aquarium
Since I'm venturing into
the discus world (and with great caution), I am planning a
(heavily planted + CO2 @15ppm) tank for the discus and want to
know about incompatibilities in the fish I'm want to newly
introduce or relocate to from other tanks to the discus tank. I'm
hoping to draw on the experience of others who know more than I
do, and who can add to the information I'm already reading online.
So here it is then; are any of the following going to be incompatible with discus in a 100 gal?
As a side note, I'm going to purchase a V2 Pure reverse osmosis system for the new tank. I'll certainly have some RO questions forthcoming.
Thank you friends for your thoughts on the compatibilities of these fish with a pair of discus.
~nc
So here it is then; are any of the following going to be incompatible with discus in a 100 gal?
- 20 cherry shrimp
- 3 clown loaches
- 3 zebra danios
- 8 neon tetras
- 2 bristle nose plec
- 3 siamese algae eaters (true SAEs)
- 6 cherry barbs
- a lone fancy guppy
- 3 perl guoramis
- 6 harlequin rasboras
As a side note, I'm going to purchase a V2 Pure reverse osmosis system for the new tank. I'll certainly have some RO questions forthcoming.
Thank you friends for your thoughts on the compatibilities of these fish with a pair of discus.
~nc
NetMax
Dec 28, 2010, 1:07:04 PM12/28/10
to The Freshwater Aquarium
Compatability is significantly influenced by the order of
introduction, shelters available and the relative size & maturity of
the fish when introduced to each other. My comments below are
generalities which will always have exceptions.
Also, my techniques are quite methodical & time consuming. I would
'seed' the tank with invertebrates and plants for many many months
before adding the fish in a specific order. I would have bought the
fish and had them in holding/quarantine tanks for a few months before
they went into the 100g. The stocking priority is not just about
compatability, but to ensure that you don't introduce any diseases,
which are a real nuisance to adress in that environment (large,
planted, hot water, low pH, softwater, high $$ investment).
NetMax
On Dec 28, 12:01 pm, NitroCarbon <next...@networkspeedy.com> wrote:
> Since I'm venturing into the discus world (and with great caution), I am
> planning a (heavily planted + CO2 @15ppm) tank for the discus and want
> to know about incompatibilities in the fish I'm want to newly introduce
> or relocate to from other tanks to the discus tank. I'm hoping to draw
> on the experience of others who know more than I do, and who can add to
> the information I'm already reading online.
>
> So here it is then; are any of the following going to be incompatible
> with discus in a 100 gal?
>
> * 20 cherry shrimp
I would seed the tank with plants & lots of Cherry shrimp and let them
establish & replicate themselves for up to a year. With any luck,
they will be fed off (nutritious source of live food) and never wiped
out. If your intent is that they co-habitate, the tank would need to
be very thick in ground cover, and the shrimp would need to establish
for at least a week by themselves.
> * 3 clown loaches
I wouldn't. They can be too gregarious, they compete with the Discus
scavenging along the bottom and are difficult to later remove.
> * 3 zebra danios
In a 100g, I'd put many more for presence, however they will compete
with the Discus for surface food. They could be too active for
Discus, so I'd let the Discus establish before adding the danios.
Personally I would not add any kind of danio.
> * 8 neon tetras
Neon & Discus will co-exist nicely. About 30 would look good.
Cardinal tetras are a bit bigger and more sturdy.
> * 2 bristle nose plec
Nope. Despite the Bushynose's wonderful and well-deserved reputation,
Discus exude a very nutritious slime coat (which their fry feed off
of), and as soon as (or if) the plecos notice, they will be attaching
themselves on the Discus to rasp a quick meal.
> * 3 siamese algae eaters (true SAEs)
Nope. Despite the SAE's wonderful and well-deserved reputation, they
do grow to about 5" in length. A more size-appropriate algae eater is
the Otocinclus (Otos).
> * 6 cherry barbs
Meh. Might be fine, 6 would vanish into the underbrush, rarely to be
seen. They will compete somewhat for scavenging, but if they stay in
the thickets, it will affect the shrimp more than the Discus. I
wouldn't. Cherries can also get a little pushy, but that's my limited
experience.
> * a lone fancy guppy
Why not? If it's disease-free, the worse that can happen is that it
becomes Discus-chow, and that would be a big Discus, so should not be
an issue.
> * 3 perl guoramis
Nice choice, though I have never seen Asian Pearl gouramis mixed with
South American Discus, they have similar temperaments. Ordinarily,
mixing Gouramis and Cichlids can be hit & miss, but Pearls are quite
sedate and present nicely in tall tanks. They will tend to the upper
50%. Discus tend to be everywhere unless/until there is something of
special interest.
> * 6 harlequin rasboras
Harlequins or Espei would make a great addition. I'd go with about
30. They will shoal nicely through the plants and are not strong
competitors for food.
>
> From what I've read, the faster, constantly zipping around zebra danios
> are going to have to stay in their existing tank, and probably the perl
> guaramis. I really do ejoy a good variety of fish in my aquariums
> (probably obvious from the above list), but I also place a great deal of
> emphasis on species compatibility and I don't just casually put fish
> together without a good bit of research or the advice of a few trusted
> friends.
Variety can have a negative effect on appearance. Plants for example,
you can have one of everything and there's no flow to follow, like a
jigsaw puzzle never assembled. A 100g tank looks uniform with about 3
to 7 plant species, starting low in the front to provide swimming area
for the Discus, and reaching high at the back to hide plumbing. Any
type of lilypad works well with Discus, but not so well with other
plants because of the shade they create, so ymmv.
The same applies with fish, which are also layered into the tank, by
swimming area, color, activity level and disposition. I think I wrote
something about this in www.netmax.tk Having too many species in
small quantities might look artificial (like a zoo), unless that's the
look you're going for (it's your tank : ) A 100g Discus tank, would
look natural and still very full with only 4 to 6 species of fish.
Assuming a cycled tank with growing plants, perhaps 7 Discus, 20
Cardinals, 6 Otos, 20 Espei, 20 Pristella and 20 Rummynose. Heat &
filter it redundantly (each heater/filter good for 100g). This is a
good stock load (the tetras have very little bio-mass) and as the
Discus grow and need more space, the tetras will have thinned out
(they have a shorter life expectancy). If adding Pearls (3?), drop 1
tetra species. Notice that the 4 small species (tetras & rasboras)
are all quite different behaviourally. The Cardinals & Espei move
similarly but with very different colors and body shapes. The
Pristellas lack the color but have a very active care-free swimming
style keeping the tank alive, like butterflys in a garden. The
Rummynose are purpose built for speed, but their interest is in each
other, so they make excellent additions (like a danio with a better
temperament).
> As a side note, I'm going to purchase a V2 Pure reverse osmosis system
> for the new tank. I'll certainly have some RO questions forthcoming.
>
> Thank you friends for your thoughts on the compatibilities of these fish
> with a pair of discus.
Pair of Discus? hmmm, ok, but I'd go with a minimum of 5. jmo : )
cheers
> ~nc
introduction, shelters available and the relative size & maturity of
the fish when introduced to each other. My comments below are
generalities which will always have exceptions.
Also, my techniques are quite methodical & time consuming. I would
'seed' the tank with invertebrates and plants for many many months
before adding the fish in a specific order. I would have bought the
fish and had them in holding/quarantine tanks for a few months before
they went into the 100g. The stocking priority is not just about
compatability, but to ensure that you don't introduce any diseases,
which are a real nuisance to adress in that environment (large,
planted, hot water, low pH, softwater, high $$ investment).
NetMax
On Dec 28, 12:01 pm, NitroCarbon <next...@networkspeedy.com> wrote:
> Since I'm venturing into the discus world (and with great caution), I am
> planning a (heavily planted + CO2 @15ppm) tank for the discus and want
> to know about incompatibilities in the fish I'm want to newly introduce
> or relocate to from other tanks to the discus tank. I'm hoping to draw
> on the experience of others who know more than I do, and who can add to
> the information I'm already reading online.
>
> So here it is then; are any of the following going to be incompatible
> with discus in a 100 gal?
>
I would seed the tank with plants & lots of Cherry shrimp and let them
establish & replicate themselves for up to a year. With any luck,
they will be fed off (nutritious source of live food) and never wiped
out. If your intent is that they co-habitate, the tank would need to
be very thick in ground cover, and the shrimp would need to establish
for at least a week by themselves.
> * 3 clown loaches
I wouldn't. They can be too gregarious, they compete with the Discus
scavenging along the bottom and are difficult to later remove.
> * 3 zebra danios
In a 100g, I'd put many more for presence, however they will compete
with the Discus for surface food. They could be too active for
Discus, so I'd let the Discus establish before adding the danios.
Personally I would not add any kind of danio.
> * 8 neon tetras
Neon & Discus will co-exist nicely. About 30 would look good.
Cardinal tetras are a bit bigger and more sturdy.
> * 2 bristle nose plec
Nope. Despite the Bushynose's wonderful and well-deserved reputation,
Discus exude a very nutritious slime coat (which their fry feed off
of), and as soon as (or if) the plecos notice, they will be attaching
themselves on the Discus to rasp a quick meal.
> * 3 siamese algae eaters (true SAEs)
Nope. Despite the SAE's wonderful and well-deserved reputation, they
do grow to about 5" in length. A more size-appropriate algae eater is
the Otocinclus (Otos).
> * 6 cherry barbs
Meh. Might be fine, 6 would vanish into the underbrush, rarely to be
seen. They will compete somewhat for scavenging, but if they stay in
the thickets, it will affect the shrimp more than the Discus. I
wouldn't. Cherries can also get a little pushy, but that's my limited
experience.
> * a lone fancy guppy
Why not? If it's disease-free, the worse that can happen is that it
becomes Discus-chow, and that would be a big Discus, so should not be
an issue.
> * 3 perl guoramis
Nice choice, though I have never seen Asian Pearl gouramis mixed with
South American Discus, they have similar temperaments. Ordinarily,
mixing Gouramis and Cichlids can be hit & miss, but Pearls are quite
sedate and present nicely in tall tanks. They will tend to the upper
50%. Discus tend to be everywhere unless/until there is something of
special interest.
> * 6 harlequin rasboras
Harlequins or Espei would make a great addition. I'd go with about
30. They will shoal nicely through the plants and are not strong
competitors for food.
>
> From what I've read, the faster, constantly zipping around zebra danios
> are going to have to stay in their existing tank, and probably the perl
> guaramis. I really do ejoy a good variety of fish in my aquariums
> (probably obvious from the above list), but I also place a great deal of
> emphasis on species compatibility and I don't just casually put fish
> together without a good bit of research or the advice of a few trusted
> friends.
you can have one of everything and there's no flow to follow, like a
jigsaw puzzle never assembled. A 100g tank looks uniform with about 3
to 7 plant species, starting low in the front to provide swimming area
for the Discus, and reaching high at the back to hide plumbing. Any
type of lilypad works well with Discus, but not so well with other
plants because of the shade they create, so ymmv.
The same applies with fish, which are also layered into the tank, by
swimming area, color, activity level and disposition. I think I wrote
something about this in www.netmax.tk Having too many species in
small quantities might look artificial (like a zoo), unless that's the
look you're going for (it's your tank : ) A 100g Discus tank, would
look natural and still very full with only 4 to 6 species of fish.
Assuming a cycled tank with growing plants, perhaps 7 Discus, 20
Cardinals, 6 Otos, 20 Espei, 20 Pristella and 20 Rummynose. Heat &
filter it redundantly (each heater/filter good for 100g). This is a
good stock load (the tetras have very little bio-mass) and as the
Discus grow and need more space, the tetras will have thinned out
(they have a shorter life expectancy). If adding Pearls (3?), drop 1
tetra species. Notice that the 4 small species (tetras & rasboras)
are all quite different behaviourally. The Cardinals & Espei move
similarly but with very different colors and body shapes. The
Pristellas lack the color but have a very active care-free swimming
style keeping the tank alive, like butterflys in a garden. The
Rummynose are purpose built for speed, but their interest is in each
other, so they make excellent additions (like a danio with a better
temperament).
> As a side note, I'm going to purchase a V2 Pure reverse osmosis system
> for the new tank. I'll certainly have some RO questions forthcoming.
>
> Thank you friends for your thoughts on the compatibilities of these fish
> with a pair of discus.
cheers
> ~nc
NitroCarbon
Dec 28, 2010, 1:30:43 PM12/28/10
to the-freshwa...@googlegroups.com
Comments interspersed...
On 12/28/2010 12:07 PM, NetMax wrote:
* 2 bristle nose plecNope. Despite the Bushynose's wonderful and well-deserved reputation, Discus exude a very nutritious slime coat (which their fry feed off of), and as soon as (or if) the plecos notice, they will be attaching themselves on the Discus to rasp a quick meal.
Does the same go for other plecs? Candy stripe, for example?
* 3 siamese algae eaters (true SAEs)Nope. Despite the SAE's wonderful and well-deserved reputation, they do grow to about 5" in length. A more size-appropriate algae eater is the Otocinclus (Otos).
What exactly is the threat they pose? Simply their adult size is bothersome to Discus? For the way they take care of my tanks, I LOVE my SAEs. Better than any algae eater I've ever found.
A 100g tank looks uniform with about 3 to 7 plant species, starting low in the front to provide swimming area for the Discus, and reaching high at the back to hide plumbing. Any type of lilypad works well with Discus, but not so well with other plants because of the shade they create, so ymmv.
I plan to feature green rotala and christmas moss, and glossostigma; I haven't decided what other plants to include. I prefer the faster growers. Little worts are too prone to algae and unattractive imo.
...20 Rummynose...
Can't find 'em locally :(
Pair of Discus? hmmm, ok, but I'd go with a minimum of 5. jmo : )
Yes, I'm thinking if I start out with a few I'll be able to add more "as I go", both because of up-front investment and because I may lose one or both due to ignorance the first time around. It's gotten to the point where I really don't lose many fish to anything other than natural causes (i.e.- age) and I really rarely have problems with disease due to quarantining, abundant UV sterilization, and the practice of a methylene blue bath as soon as I get the fish home before going into quarantine--- but I am not yet aware of everything specific to discus and from what I understand, they are so fragile. I'm really concerned about botching this up.
~nc
NetMax
Dec 28, 2010, 4:34:08 PM12/28/10
to The Freshwater Aquarium
below...
NetMax
On Dec 28, 1:30 pm, NitroCarbon <next...@networkspeedy.com> wrote:
> Comments interspersed...
>
> On 12/28/2010 12:07 PM, NetMax wrote:
>
> >> * 2 bristle nose plec
>
> > Nope. Despite the Bushynose's wonderful and well-deserved reputation,
> > Discus exude a very nutritious slime coat (which their fry feed off
> > of), and as soon as (or if) the plecos notice, they will be attaching
> > themselves on the Discus to rasp a quick meal.
>
> Does the same go for other plecs? Candy stripe, for example?
In regards to the Candy Striped pleco, and because common names are
often misleading, Peckoltia vittata
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/species.php?species_id=75 calls
them:
'Omnivorous with a tendency towards meaty foods. Not an effective
algae eater.'
I would rate them even more dangerous to Discus than the Bushynose
(Bristlenose)
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/species.php?species_id=221 which
are a bit more vegetarian (and Discus slime coat is animal-based).
> >> * 3 siamese algae eaters (true SAEs)
>
> > Nope. Despite the SAE's wonderful and well-deserved reputation, they
> > do grow to about 5" in length. A more size-appropriate algae eater is
> > the Otocinclus (Otos).
>
> What exactly is the threat they pose? Simply their adult size is
> bothersome to Discus? For the way they take care of my tanks, I LOVE my
> SAEs. Better than any algae eater I've ever found.
A successfully balanced Discus tank is a tranquil non-stressed
environment, which can be tricky to arrange when Discus are plate-
sized buffets for other predators. Accordingly, the best Discus co-
habitants are generally much smaller so the Discus learn there is no
danger and move about unstressed. Maintaining a non-stressed
environment will go a lot farther than any meds you can find to treat
all the issues which are what historically categorize Discus as
fragile. The rule then becomes nothing bigger, and if it's faster,
then much smaller. SAEs can be both bigger and faster than Discus.
There is a reason Discus tanks have Otos instead of SAEs, but ymmv.
> > A 100g tank looks uniform with about 3
> > to 7 plant species, starting low in the front to provide swimming area
> > for the Discus, and reaching high at the back to hide plumbing. Any
> > type of lilypad works well with Discus, but not so well with other
> > plants because of the shade they create, so ymmv.
>
> I plan to feature green rotala and christmas moss, and glossostigma; I
> haven't decided what other plants to include. I prefer the faster
> growers. Little worts are too prone to algae and unattractive imo.
Maintaining the philosophy of low stress, you may want to have slow
growing low maintenance plants. Hands in an aquarium are stressful to
most fish. Unless the Discus are in a barebottom breeding tank and
see hands and a daily 100% water change, they will likely not look
forward to your intrusions. It's a philosophy which you can adhere to
as much as it suits you and the fish. Discus do well under certain
conditions, and these conditions unfortunately do NOT include algae-
free pristine tanks under bright lights and a lot of foot traffic
(which is our normal setup). They would prefer lower lights, hotter
water than plants might like, rotting algae-covered roots everywhere
for shelter, and vegetation above to protect them from avian
predators. Since this is not considered a pretty environment for most
of us to look at, we meet them partway with extra safe co-habitants,
as much plant cover as we can achieve and algae growth on wood to
harbor micro-fauna for them, their fry and the shrimp to feed off of.
> > ...20 Rummynose...
>
> Can't find 'em locally :(
When I stock a 100g community, I usually take about 3-4 months of pet
shop trolling to assemble everyone. I'll order fish online if I'm
really stuck. The reason you cannot find Rummynose is because their
mark-up is much lower than other tetras (the stores make less money
off them), so you might need to pester your favorite store to order
them.
> > Pair of Discus? hmmm, ok, but I'd go with a minimum of 5. jmo : )
>
> Yes, I'm thinking if I start out with a few I'll be able to add more "as
> I go", both because of up-front investment and because I may lose one or
> both due to ignorance the first time around. It's gotten to the point
> where I really don't lose many fish to anything other than natural
> causes (i.e.- age) and I really rarely have problems with disease due to
> quarantining, abundant UV sterilization, and the practice of a methylene
> blue bath as soon as I get the fish home before going into quarantine---
> but I am not yet aware of everything specific to discus and from what I
> understand, they are so fragile. I'm really concerned about botching
> this up.
Discus tend to have more issues with intestinal worms, to the extent
that I know breeders who routinely de-worm any new arrivals. I don't
recall what they used (and they didn't like to share proprietary
information either). I don't know what's available today. Discus are
also very defenceless (slow moving, large target area, small mouths
etc), so if they don't feel safe, they will let you know (behaviour,
coloration, lack of appetite and then sickness). With all fish, you
give them good water and concentrate on satisfying their physical
needs. When breeding fish, extra emphasis goes towards their
environmental needs and state of mind. That's also true for Discus,
as so much more emphasis must go towards their emotional state of well
being. I cannot emphasize enough, how important habitat and co-
habitants are to Discus.
I'd anticipate a moving mortality of 20%, and would hope that I'd lose
none of the Discus, which is not unreasonable since they are larger
cichlids. Ideally, I'd find a breeder and pick them out of their
tank, after testing and matching my water parameters to theirs. The
plan is to do all the work, planting, purchasing, etc at the
beginning, and then once the Discus are added, you leave the tank
alone for about 3-4 months. Resist scrapping the algae, moving the
plants and rocks around etc etc. STAY OUT of the tank. You feed and
watch. After 4 months, they will all be much more tolerant of any
intrusions. That's what I do : ) hth
NetMax
> ~nc
NetMax
On Dec 28, 1:30 pm, NitroCarbon <next...@networkspeedy.com> wrote:
> Comments interspersed...
>
> On 12/28/2010 12:07 PM, NetMax wrote:
>
> >> * 2 bristle nose plec
>
> > Nope. Despite the Bushynose's wonderful and well-deserved reputation,
> > Discus exude a very nutritious slime coat (which their fry feed off
> > of), and as soon as (or if) the plecos notice, they will be attaching
> > themselves on the Discus to rasp a quick meal.
>
> Does the same go for other plecs? Candy stripe, for example?
often misleading, Peckoltia vittata
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/species.php?species_id=75 calls
them:
'Omnivorous with a tendency towards meaty foods. Not an effective
algae eater.'
I would rate them even more dangerous to Discus than the Bushynose
(Bristlenose)
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/species.php?species_id=221 which
are a bit more vegetarian (and Discus slime coat is animal-based).
> >> * 3 siamese algae eaters (true SAEs)
>
> > Nope. Despite the SAE's wonderful and well-deserved reputation, they
> > do grow to about 5" in length. A more size-appropriate algae eater is
> > the Otocinclus (Otos).
>
> What exactly is the threat they pose? Simply their adult size is
> bothersome to Discus? For the way they take care of my tanks, I LOVE my
> SAEs. Better than any algae eater I've ever found.
environment, which can be tricky to arrange when Discus are plate-
sized buffets for other predators. Accordingly, the best Discus co-
habitants are generally much smaller so the Discus learn there is no
danger and move about unstressed. Maintaining a non-stressed
environment will go a lot farther than any meds you can find to treat
all the issues which are what historically categorize Discus as
fragile. The rule then becomes nothing bigger, and if it's faster,
then much smaller. SAEs can be both bigger and faster than Discus.
There is a reason Discus tanks have Otos instead of SAEs, but ymmv.
> > A 100g tank looks uniform with about 3
> > to 7 plant species, starting low in the front to provide swimming area
> > for the Discus, and reaching high at the back to hide plumbing. Any
> > type of lilypad works well with Discus, but not so well with other
> > plants because of the shade they create, so ymmv.
>
> I plan to feature green rotala and christmas moss, and glossostigma; I
> haven't decided what other plants to include. I prefer the faster
> growers. Little worts are too prone to algae and unattractive imo.
growing low maintenance plants. Hands in an aquarium are stressful to
most fish. Unless the Discus are in a barebottom breeding tank and
see hands and a daily 100% water change, they will likely not look
forward to your intrusions. It's a philosophy which you can adhere to
as much as it suits you and the fish. Discus do well under certain
conditions, and these conditions unfortunately do NOT include algae-
free pristine tanks under bright lights and a lot of foot traffic
(which is our normal setup). They would prefer lower lights, hotter
water than plants might like, rotting algae-covered roots everywhere
for shelter, and vegetation above to protect them from avian
predators. Since this is not considered a pretty environment for most
of us to look at, we meet them partway with extra safe co-habitants,
as much plant cover as we can achieve and algae growth on wood to
harbor micro-fauna for them, their fry and the shrimp to feed off of.
> > ...20 Rummynose...
>
> Can't find 'em locally :(
shop trolling to assemble everyone. I'll order fish online if I'm
really stuck. The reason you cannot find Rummynose is because their
mark-up is much lower than other tetras (the stores make less money
off them), so you might need to pester your favorite store to order
them.
> > Pair of Discus? hmmm, ok, but I'd go with a minimum of 5. jmo : )
>
> Yes, I'm thinking if I start out with a few I'll be able to add more "as
> I go", both because of up-front investment and because I may lose one or
> both due to ignorance the first time around. It's gotten to the point
> where I really don't lose many fish to anything other than natural
> causes (i.e.- age) and I really rarely have problems with disease due to
> quarantining, abundant UV sterilization, and the practice of a methylene
> blue bath as soon as I get the fish home before going into quarantine---
> but I am not yet aware of everything specific to discus and from what I
> understand, they are so fragile. I'm really concerned about botching
> this up.
that I know breeders who routinely de-worm any new arrivals. I don't
recall what they used (and they didn't like to share proprietary
information either). I don't know what's available today. Discus are
also very defenceless (slow moving, large target area, small mouths
etc), so if they don't feel safe, they will let you know (behaviour,
coloration, lack of appetite and then sickness). With all fish, you
give them good water and concentrate on satisfying their physical
needs. When breeding fish, extra emphasis goes towards their
environmental needs and state of mind. That's also true for Discus,
as so much more emphasis must go towards their emotional state of well
being. I cannot emphasize enough, how important habitat and co-
habitants are to Discus.
I'd anticipate a moving mortality of 20%, and would hope that I'd lose
none of the Discus, which is not unreasonable since they are larger
cichlids. Ideally, I'd find a breeder and pick them out of their
tank, after testing and matching my water parameters to theirs. The
plan is to do all the work, planting, purchasing, etc at the
beginning, and then once the Discus are added, you leave the tank
alone for about 3-4 months. Resist scrapping the algae, moving the
plants and rocks around etc etc. STAY OUT of the tank. You feed and
watch. After 4 months, they will all be much more tolerant of any
intrusions. That's what I do : ) hth
NetMax
> ~nc
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