Female betta ER blowing up
Nikki B
I am 99% sure she was fine last night i think i would of noticed but
there is a chance she was hiding.
Her belly looks like a balloon, from her chin to back of belly where
fin starts, she looks like a female guppy ready to have babies, i have
female bettas who are holding eggs so its not that its much bigger (at
least not normal holding eggs)...ugh Could it be dropsy? she is
white with a black stripe so i can see inside of her and there are red
streaks (looks like a brush burn on the inside of her belly) I also
seen a blue spot on the white of her eye..I have never had a female who
was egg bound, not just had eggs but was sick from it so maybe it could
also be that, she was the first female i tried to breed, but the male
was not working out so i returned her but that was over three weeks
ago, could she have filled with eggs being i did not breed her she was
in the glass for a couple days. Oh i dont know, any way to tell the
difference, i dont have any TC left if its bacterial.
ok thoughts please
Nik
NetMax
eggbound, but this is not something that happens quickly, and is not
normally fatal (the eggs should dissolve).
Abdominal expansion can be blocked intestines (place fish in solution
of Epsom salts) or a bacterial infection (antibiotic medicated foods if
the fish is still eating). Small fish suffer internal bacterial
infections poorly (watch for dropsy symptoms), and they should be kept
isolated from the other fish. Larger fish can recover better and have
other options if it is constipation.
Don't react to quickly (euthanising). If dropsy, it will become more
evident (pine-coning followed by death). If egg-bound, behaviour will
be fairly normal (color, appetite etc). hth
Nikki B
I have never seen dropsy but i am betting from everything i have heard
you guys say, that is what it is, she is so bloated she is looking like
a pine cone. I can see red blood on the inside of her which looks like
blood/brush burn, she is white so you can see it. from where the eggs
or poop would come out she just had a white ball (small) then it went
into stringy white?? Until this morning when i seen it she was in the
tank with my other nine female betta's, if its dropsy are the others
going to get it also? is there any way to know for sure. Should i be
doing anything for the others (who seem fine)
thanks netmax for the help
Nik
NetMax
experience. If it is dropsy symptoms (because dropsy is not a specific
disease), then I think one the most common disease vectors is through
ingestion (especially for younger fish). They consume something with
the bacteria and it establishes itself in their organs. If this is the
case, when the Betta dies, the other fish would normally pick at the
body, so the disease spreads itself.
Many of these internal bacterial diseases can lie dormant for years,
and only manifest themselves when the fish is under stress or getting
old (dropsy is very common with very old fish). Consequently, the
dying Betta's tank-mates have a much higher chance of staying healthy
if the suspect fish is isolated, but they might already be carriers and
they might remain unaffected. With virulent strains, hobbyists see a
repeating pattern of one or more fish inexplicably dying every 2-3
months (as the disease establishes itself and creates another victim).
Medicated foods (antibiotics) are a possible cure, though proper
husbandry (clean water and good diet) can go as far or farther than
drugs sometimes. It depends on the strain of bacteria (how fast acting
it is) and how robust the fish was to start with (age, size and
health). hth jmo
Frank
>I have never seen dropsy but i am betting from everything i have heard
>you guys say, that is what it is, she is so bloated she is looking like
With dropsy, the fish not only blows up, it's scales lift and it's eyes
bulge. Treatment takes 30 days, but most fish won't make it that long.
Treatment - salt free water, 1/4 tsp Epson Salt per 5 gal., feed an
antibiotic food, raise temp to 81º to 82º and treat water with
TMP-sulfa or sulfa 4 TMP or triple sulfa powder. Their are other
reasons for a fish to 'bloat'... Bloated and won't eat could be
internal hexamita - quite common in cichlids, called Malawi Bloat, but
other species besides cichlids get it. Treated with Metronidazole (drug
of choice) for 5 to 7 days. Hex-a-mit contains metronidazole. On your
side of the pond, you may not be able to get metronidazole. You can use
Fenbenzadole - a livestock (sheep and cattle) dewormer. 1/4 teaspoon
per 20 gal. - treat tank day 1, day 2 do a 50% water change. Day 3 do
another 50% water change and retreat tank - repeat for 3 weeks....
If the fish is bloated and *is* eating, it could be an internal
parasite (likely worms). Praziquantel mixed in food at 1/4 tsp per 100
grams of food for 3 to 5 days, or treat the water with Fluke-Tabs....
Out side chance that it could be constipation....
>from where the eggs or poop would come out she just
>had a white ball (small) then it went into stringy white??
Or an internal bacterial infection (thin white waste).
> if its dropsy are the others going to get it also?
>is there any way to know for sure. Should i be
>doing anything for the others (who seem fine) ...
No, but the fish should be quarantined - as you really don't know what
it is yet!.................... Frank
Nikki B
She died this morning, i want to explain whats going on in that tank to
see if anything is related, if you have time could you read this, and
let me know.
The first group of betta's i got have been in that tank for some time
healthy, other then the ich which was treated and gone some time back,
since then i have had no problems. I posted a while back one of my red
females is a little big in the belly and all though she can swim its
not as good as normal, but its been a month now and she is still eating
and fine. Yesterday morning i noticed the white female her belly was
huge, and she was pine coned, i ask several others to look at her and
give me their opinion as to if they would use that word and they said
yes, so i will go with that, her belly looked like it was full of blood
(red), since she was white i could see it. This morning i noticed i had
2 dead females in the tank, neither one looked bloated. I have 4-5 in
there now, including the red one i said was a bit fat. I noticed one
other looks a big fat but not pine coned, but the one who died it
happend fast to. I was going to empty out that tank, i have another
tank i can put them in that is empty. should i get rid of the filter
media or transfer it to the new tank? Any chance its fish TB or do you
think dropsy, and i dont know why. I forgot to meantion i got two new
ones a little over a month ago, they were QT and seemed fine to me,
they went in to the tank a few weeks back. The tank is very clean,
water changes every 5 days 10-15%. temp 82 degrees, i use aquarium salt
not at full dose but 1 tablespoon per 10g.
Nik
should i treat the rest as if they have dropsy even if they dont look
sick or should i wait, i dont want to lose any more.
sorry i am upset about this
I dont know if this makes a difference either i had my red male in with
the females he has been out of that tank for a while now, he was the
one i posted about who can't swim well, (i dont know if you remember
the swim bladder thing) he was treated and has still not be able to
swim, but has been eating and fine like that for well over a month.
sorry if this is all over the place i am trying to remember everything.
Tynk
We talked via email about this, but I'll add here too....
In my email I told you about how my last batch of females died. Only
symptoms were bloating. Meds didn't help much.
It was absolutely contagious. I would actually split them all up into
isolation tanks by themselves. In this situation anything that can hold
water will do. Don't worry about finding all 1g tanks/jars while doing
this.
Heck....even those new Glad or Hefty type plastic containers they have
now come pretty large and will do fine. Poke a few holes in the lid for
air though.
Might have to go to like a Walmart etc to find the larger sized ones if
the grocery store doesn't have them. Of course this doesn't matter if
you have several jars around.
In a bucket I would add water, dechlor and the correct dose for the
amount of gallons in that bucket, of either Maracyn2 or Jungle brand
Fungus Eliminator (not F. Guard..different stuff) and not in tablet
form. It comes in a tiny plastic bottle. The tablets will be harder to
dose properly for odd sizes.
The granuals are easily measured when figuring out the correct dosage
amounts per gallon/s.
Then fill up the separate containers with the premixed water and then
after the fish adjust to the temp, release them.
The medication in this case is for the chance that it's something
bacterial and can be cured.
I know I recommended a "Fungus" med for bacterial issues, but this med
treats both true fungus and bacterial infections as well.
Like I said in the email, meds are a last resort.
However, you have already lost more than one and now is the time to
treat.
I would normally treat them all in one tank, however, not in this case.
Simply because of what I had just went through with the females I lost.
Only 2 survived it.
Only 1-2 had the pine cone affect, but all had the typical drospy
symptom of bloating.
Remember, a fish doesn't have to pinecone to be showing drospy
symptoms.
General swelling because of internal fluid build up is all that
"drospy" is, as it's a condition and not an actual disease.
The reason needs to be found for the symptoms, but that's in general,
not toward you as you are doing what you need to be. Asking questions
and getting several valid opinions, and then going from there.
Good job.
After you get the females situated, I would also do a water change on
the main tank they were in. Just as a precaution and because itt's
always the first thing I do and recommend doing too.
OH!!!!
You must not cross contaminate your tanks!
If you don't have separate equipment (nets, feeding stick/dropper, etc)
you'll need to dunk it in bleach water for like 5 minutes. This will
disinfect the equipment.
I would also suggest either dunking your hands in it too, or washing
your hands with isopopryl alcohol (rubbing alcohol).
Other hobbyists may think that's a bit much, but I have dealt with TB,
Angel virus, and 3 other Betta related virus', so I know how important
it is not to cross contaminate. I also know because I have done
it....more than once. = (
So if I can steer somebody away from doing that to their tanks, it's
not in vain.
Nikki B
not going to stay above 80, if its not warm will it cause stress and
make it less likley for them to fight it? every one always says keep
them warm?
second i lost another two i am now down to four....bad
I have applus antifungal w/ MG
let me know
I did a 90% water change in the tank and changed the filter media, now
thinking i should of just finished and done the entire thing, only bad
thing is i put the ones left back in so i guess i will be changing it
again.
Nik
Frank
> she was pine coned
>her belly looked like it was full of blood (red)....
I have posted this twice - we,ll see if it shows up this time... Sure
sounds like Acute Dropsy/Septicemia - an internal bacteria infection
which causes internal bleeding.
>should i get rid of the filter
>media or transfer it to the new tank?
Use it on the quarantine tank.
>Any chance its fish TB ....
No - wrong symptoms.
>i use aquarium salt
>not at full dose but 1 tablespoon per 10g....
Don't use it in the quarantine tank while treating dropsy - salt
retains water.
>should i treat the rest as if they have dropsy even if they dont look
>sick ....
Dropsy is considered not to be contagious - I disagree, for the most
part. If cancer causes the dropsy, then it wouldn't be contagious, but
that is rarely the case. Dropsy, caused by an internal bacterial
infection is highly contagious. You should begain treatment with an
antibiotic, but on your side of the pond, you can't buy the stuff. See
if yous LPS carries eather WaterLife's Octozin, or Interpet # 9 and try
that. .......................... Frank
Yes - Acute Dropsy/Septicemia
Nikki B
I had lost the one who was pineconed, with in 12 hours of putting her
in qt
That same morning i found 2 more dead in the tank, later in the day
lost a couple more.
None of the others that died from what i could see looked pineconed
only bloated.....ugh
I now have four left, two who look a bit fat and two who look normal,
the thing with female betta's is
sometimes they look fat because of eggs so it dont mean a lot.
Tynk lost all but a couple of her female betta's not long ago with the
same symptoms, she suggested last night
I put them in qt by them selves not together, so i have each in betta
containers, she used Fungus Eliminator to treat she said because it
treats bacterial infection also (her post is above)
The four i qt alone are alive as of right now, i feed all this morning
and they all ate and are acting normal. I checked them this morning to
see if they looked any different/fatter and they dont all look the
same. I am worried however tynk said *do not cross contaminate* and i
think i may have with a net before i knew what was going on, so i am
going to have to keep an eye on the other tank with the
gourami/angel/loaches.
nik
IDzine01
>bulge. Treatment takes 30 days, but most fish won't make it that long.
Frank,
I haven't heard of a definitive treatment for Dropsy before. Can you
explain further how this has worked for you? My understanding has been
that Dropsy is a symptom of organ failure (most often kidneys) due to a
bacterial or viral infection. I didn't think it was possible to reverse
the organ damage. If you think it is something otherwise, I would like
to hear your theory. I have never had a betta survive Dropsy
unfortunately. The best I have seen is temporary improvement (after
signs of pine coning) that lasted a couple of months and then the betta
finally succumbed to the Dropsy symptoms again.
Thanks,
C
Nikki B
this is a link they talk some about treatment, I dont know if its what
you are looking for but you might want to check it out
Nik
Frank
>I haven't heard of a definitive treatment for Dropsy before...
You still haven't - not from me anyway! However, dropsy is a name given
to a symptom the fish gets (swelling, bulging eyes, lifting scales),
that could be due to any one of a multiple of causes, some of which are
treatable - ie; internal bacterial infection, internal parasites, and
poor water quality (high DOC levels). Antibiotics treat bacterial
infections, Fluke-Tabs, Paracide "D", or Praziguantel (DIY medicated
food) all treat internal parasites, and lots of water changes along
with Epsom Salts and heat treats bloating, due to the loss of
Osmoregulation (the control of body fluids), because of organic
pollution - poor water quality.
> My understanding has been that Dropsy is a
>symptom of organ failure (most often kidneys)
>due to a bacterial or viral infection. I didn't think
>it was possible to reverse the organ damage...
Yes, dropsy is a symptom, the cause mabe cancer or a tumor, but not of
organ failure. ...
...........................Frank
Nikki B
fish food or with human meds (can you do that? whats the difference
between T.C for people and fish)
nik
IDzine01
>organ failure. ...
If it were cancer or a tumor the resulting fluid buildup would still be
caused by organ failure, no? While I realize that Dropsy is still
fairly misunderstood isn't that part of it pretty universally accepted?
Nikki B
lost almost all her female betta's with in a short period of time. She
said she did not know what the underline cause was but the ones who
died...died from dropsy, some pine coned some not. However two I think
of them lived. I will ask if she thought the two who lived were
infected also with what ever was making them sick.
I read something about dropsy ..It said in some fish it could last for
some time, maybe they are carrying something, My one female has been a
bit fat since I got her, however I thought it was from eggs at first.
She can swim but not as well as normal. I treated her with T.C, did not
make no change I also treated for constipation at one point with Epsom
salt, again no difference.
She is alive and eats and acts normal its been over a month. I wonder
if she is carrying something she was in the tank with those that died.
Nik
Frank
>the resulting fluid buildup would still be
No - it be cancer or tumor, internal bacteria infection, internal
parasites, dirty water, organ failure, or a viruses that causes the
fluid buildup, it's the fluid buildup that kills the fish.
Osmoregulation is the control of the fishs body fluids. If a fish is
unable to regulate it's body fluids, it will die! Somehow, 'dropsy'
messes with the fishs osmoregulation.
>While I realize that Dropsy is still fairly
>misunderstood isn't that part of it
>pretty universally accepted? ...
You have a point there - my understanding (most of the time/universally
accepted), dropsy is due to a bacterial virus, or internal bacteria
infection. I guess the difference of opinion here is because it is
"still fairly misunderstood" ;-) ................. Frank
Nikki B
left are safe, how will i know if they are carrying something, should i
not put them with any other fish again, any thoughts on this. Two of
them seem great and two seem ok, all are eating and dont look sick.
NIk
Frank
>How long will it be before i know if the four female
>bettas that are left are safe, how will i know if they
We still don't know what they have/had. You know, they say dropsy isn't
considered to be contagious, so a tank full of bettas to have dropsy
all at the same time, doesn't seem right. I think you might have had
one with dropsy, as a secondary infection, but the rest of the bettas
had/has something else - an internal bacteria virus causing bloat.
>should i not put them with any other
>fish again, any thoughts on this....
Well, _if_ it were a virus, dormant it's referred to as 'virions' and
can remain dormant for extended periods of time. When this virions
comes into contact with the hostcell, it becomes active and is then
referred to as a virus. Now, first you have to figure out if the
infection was/is due to a virus, which can not be treated, or a
bacterial infection, treated with an antibiotic that over there (UK),
can't be bought! "any thoughts?" ................... Frank
Nikki B
I can get antibiotics...and my red female was treated with antibiotics
which did not seem to make any difference in her being bloated. now the
rest were not treated with antibiotics, I did treat with MG fungus as
Tynk said to try, did it help? I dont know, and dont have no way of
knowing, they are still alive, and seem no worse for ware. They are all
QT alone incase its something contagious and they were not all
infected.
Nik
I am doing a water change today i am going to give them another good
look over. (think of anything i should look out for)
I might set up a 10g for them and keep the tank spotless maybe do water
changs every few days, treat all four with antibiotics. what do you
think?
When i QT them alone i did not know if they would all be dead the next
day or what. I have two who look great which is why i was worried about
having them together.
Tynk
Nikki B wrote:
> I am in pgh Pa, United States.
> I can get antibiotics...and my red female was treated with antibiotics
> which did not seem to make any difference in her being bloated. now the
> knowing, they are still alive, and seem no worse for ware. They are all
> QT alone incase its something contagious and they were not all
> infected.
> Nik
> I am doing a water change today i am going to give them another good
> look over. (think of anything i should look out for)
> I might set up a 10g for them and keep the tank spotless maybe do water
> changs every few days, treat all four with antibiotics. what do you
> think?
> When i QT them alone i did not know if they would all be dead the next
> day or what. I have two who look great which is why i was worried about
> having them together.
Nikki Wrote:
, I did treat with MG fungus as
> Tynk said to try, did it help? I dont know,
I advised to try Jungle brand's Fungus Eliminator. Not anything else.
This was in case your females were dying like my last batch did.
I didn't say they died *from* Dropsy, as it's a symptom of something
else going on.
They all had dropsy symptoms, and all died rather quickly, and only
Bettas were dying, so I assumed this was some sort of betta related
disease, be it virus or bacterial.
Not knowing which, it was worth a shot trying a broad treatment such as
JFE, as it seems to work so well on many different bacterial
infections.
I'm leaning towards what happened to mine as viral. Two survived, but
look like hell. The male that was in there (the 2nd male) is still fine
but had to removed to a tank by himself as the newest batch of females
(out of QT after 2 weeks) had a bruiser of a lady that was starting to
shred him.
He is STILL pouting about going from a 75g to a 1g tank. Can't blame
him though. = /
Out of all the new females, I have one that seems to have a swim
bladder issue after feeding. She fop at the surface on her side, like
flicking her tail trying to right herself. After she poo's...(the poo
seems to have air bubbles in it) then she swims fine.
What's with this? Anyone know if there's something I can do?
No dry food? No wet food? Feed her very slowly by hand? Don't worry
about it?
I don't know. Haven't had one do this before. I've dealt with SB issues
before, not just from eating though.
As for Nikki's females....it's very possible that none of the others
are bloated, just ripe with eggs. This is why I sent pics of normal,
ripe with eggs female Bettas to you via email. That way you'll have
something to compare to.
Mind you....they can get even larger (looking like they swallowed a
marble) than the pics I sent and still be quite normal.
No need to put them in with a male to have them "drop eggs", as they do
this on their own, or they're reabsorbed into the body.
Rarely do they become egg bound.
Tynk
Frank wrote:
> Nikki B wrote,
> > she was pine coned
> >her belly looked like it was full of blood (red)....
>
> I have posted this twice - we,ll see if it shows up this time... Sure
> sounds like Acute Dropsy/Septicemia - an internal bacteria infection
> which causes internal bleeding.
>
> >should i get rid of the filter
> >media or transfer it to the new tank?
>
> Use it on the quarantine tank.
>
>
> >i use aquarium salt
> >not at full dose but 1 tablespoon per 10g....
>
> Don't use it in the quarantine tank while treating dropsy - salt
> retains water.
>
> >should i treat the rest as if they have dropsy even if they dont look
> >sick ....
>
> Dropsy is considered not to be contagious - I disagree, for the most
> part. If cancer causes the dropsy, then it wouldn't be contagious, but
> that is rarely the case. Dropsy, caused by an internal bacterial
> infection is highly contagious. You should begain treatment with an
> antibiotic, but on your side of the pond, you can't buy the stuff. See
> if yous LPS carries eather WaterLife's Octozin, or Interpet # 9 and try
> that. .......................... Frank
> Yes - Acute Dropsy/Septicemia
Frank wrote:
> >Any chance its fish TB ....
>
> No - wrong symptoms.
Not to be too nit picky, but Drospy symptoms are one of the sings of
TB. However, I do not think this is the case, but wanted to clear that
up.
Tynk
Nikki B
post about it.
(this is what i was quoting)
I was talking to Tynk (however she may have it posted here to) she had
lost almost all her female betta's with in a short period of time. She
said she did not know what the underline cause was but the ones who
died...died from dropsy, some pine coned some not
I was not saying dropsy was a disease, but the symptom of dropsy will
kill a fish most of the time, so i had said you did not know what the
underline cause was but when they got dropsy they died.
I had explained what you said in the begining.
As far as the fungus stuff, i have other jungle products here like ich
and water clear but they dont carry one for fungus, not at our lfs any
way, so i used the one i had.
Anyway i was just posting in that post to say they were still alive and
doing fine, so far and that i did not know if any thing i did helped
them or if they were not infected to begin with.
sorry
Nik
Tynk
Nikki B wrote:
> sorry if i did not quote you right the last time, but i did in my first
> post about it.
> (this is what i was quoting)
>
> I was talking to Tynk (however she may have it posted here to) she had
> lost almost all her female betta's with in a short period of time. She
> said she did not know what the underline cause was but the ones who
> died...died from dropsy, some pine coned some not
>
> I was not saying dropsy was a disease, but the symptom of dropsy will
> kill a fish most of the time, so i had said you did not know what the
> underline cause was but when they got dropsy they died.
> I had explained what you said in the begining.
> Anyway i was just posting in that post to say they were still alive and
> doing fine, so far and that i did not know if any thing i did helped
> them or if they were not infected to begin with.
> sorry
> Nik
Nikki wrote:
> As far as the fungus stuff, i have other jungle products here like ich
> and water clear but they dont carry one for fungus, not at our lfs any
> way, so i used the one i had.
Here's why I made another comment about the medication I specifically
recdommended to you.
I knew your fish were not suffering from any type of true fungus, as
that would be quite obvious.
A different medication may (as your did) have different active
ingredients.
When a seasoned hobbysist recommends a specific medication, if you
cannot find that one, don't just use a different type as it may not
have the correct medication in it.
This is not a bashing, this is a simple FYI.
The thing with Jungle's Fungus Eliminator is that it treats many
bacterial issues (and better in some cases than other meds made for the
very same thing).
I don't know why, it just does. Probably the combo of meds that are in
it.
Nikki B
said quite the opposite. I also have kept fish for a long time, not
betta's but fish, since I was a child, and i am well into my 30's so
its been a while. I was well aware of what you said about the med, I
did not just use another med, I had one that treats both the things you
said, however I do not have the name brand you used nor did any of the
stores, but there are several other fungus meds that treat other
things, applus w/MG (has other ingredients just cant think of spelling
of them) but is for the treatment of fungus, and on the bottle says
for fungus but MG treats other things also not stated on the bottle
like ich and several other things, so i looked up the stuff in the med
you used on the internet and seen what it treated, and just used a
different name brand. maybe it helped them, I don't know it did not
hurt, I would of used it any way. I was having a conversation with
someone and was just trying to explain what I had done all ready. So
that is that, I have had a busy night and got to go.
Nik