Bristlenose pleco not growing

[yng...@aol.com]

I have a pair of adult albino BN plecos and since they regularly
reproduce, I have been selling the youngsters back to the LFS. A few
months ago I spotted a marbled BN pleco there and bought it. Was
planning to move it to another tank when it grows up--but it's not
really growing. I've had it close to three months and it's only
slightly bigger than it was, about two inches. As far as I can tell,
it looks healthy although not as plump as my albino fry.

Since the population of BN's keeps the algae down in that tank, I also
feed Sera catfish wafers, Hikari algae pellets, zucchini slices and
the occasional meal of the insides of thawed frozen peas. The marbled
one is usually front and center eating, so I think it is getting
enough to eat.

Is it possible this kind of BN pleco is slower growing than the
albinos? I have fry of various sizes in the tank but they all seem to
be growing a lot faster than the marbled one. Is it possible it has an
internal parasite that is stunting its growth? I don't want to take it
out and medicate if I am not sure whether there is anything wrong with
it.

Is there anything else I could feed that would enhance growth?

Thanks--
yngver

[NetMax]

Species difference or an internal parasite are possibilities, though
it might just be older than you think, well past its optimal growing
window, and stunted for life.

NetMax

[yng...@aol.com]

Hmm, I never thought of that. You mean a fish that normally grows to
five inches or so as an adult could be stunted and stay two inches?
What would cause that? With ancistrus, I can normally tell when they
are approaching adulthood because the bristles start coming in, and
this one still looks like a juvenile; in other words, no sign of
bristles and the head is the shape more typical of the juveniles. But
I have only had the albinos before this and all from the same two
parents. They are fairly prolific.

-yngver

[NetMax]

My experience is not Ancistrus-specific. It's not uncommon for a
brood to have a few fish with abnormal growth, either growing quickly
(to outmaneuver other same-size species) or staying small (to better
survive a shrinking food supply). On top of that, juvenile fish
(during their formative growth period) fed only flake food will
frequently never achieve full normal adult size. Other variables are
disease (parasites), genetic drift (all that brood was a bit smaller),
and subspecies (different growth rates & sizes). Another variable is
water parameters (moving juveniles from soft to hard water causes a
reduction in their ability to expel ammonia and intake oxygen due to
the higher osmotic pressure on their gill cells). Generally, the
larger the mass of the fish, and the lower their metabolism, the more
quickly they adjust to a change in water hardness. Juveniles tend to
be smaller and more active, so they react more acutely and for a
longer period of time when moved into significantly harder water. The
effect can be a permanent and significant reduction in growth rate.
Isn't natural selection and evolutionary environmental responses
neat? : )

NetMax

> > > yngver- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Kel's Mustang]

On Aug 10, 7:13 pm, NetMax <computeral...@hotmail.com> wrote:

I was thinking stunted and then read NetMax's response.
Where I live our water is liquid rock. so hard that it will stun tmy
Angelfish and Bettas growth terribly.
I know Frank (late) and Mr.G. both said they never heard of hard water
stunting growth and didn't really believe it, but it was the only
difference between my angel fry not growing past a fifty cent piece
after moving out here, and where I used to live where the water was
close to neutral.
I've seen this happen over and over for the last 23 years living with
extremely hard water.
I have to cut my tap water 50% with RO water when raising fry.
I'm not talking about runts not growing properly either. There is a
distinct difference with growth rates in very hard water vs. near
neutral or on the softer side.
I've even experimented with siblings from the same batch of fry. Half
were given to a buddy. The ones she had grew to a normal size, and
faster than what I was used to. The water by where she lives is
perfect for angels right from the tap. So perfect that my angelfish
breeder moved out there *because* of the water. He has since gone
crazy and while being treated for that - the man's father killed all
his stock. His stock would have made Altum and Mr. G drool! All his
stock was unbelievable.
Other breeders that I know still talk about him and the quality of his
fish, as well as the tragic way they were killed off. All the jerk had
to do was get Paul's book of names and divvy out his stock. All those
bloodlines gone.
Instead, the man kills them all. Just tragic.
Years later when my son moved away we split a batch of batch of fry to
grow. His water wasn't perfect, but more of a neutral level. His grew
at a rate that I was used to back in the old days. Mine grew slower,
and never made it to their full potential in size, but live a normal
lifespan. This is only when cut in half with RO water though. I
wouldn't even try without cutting it now that I know the levels we're
dealing with out here and what it will do.
The only ones that die off early are runts. These weren't culled on
purpose. Just to see if they would grow even to half the normal size
(for my water).
So mine that are raised out here with water that's cut 50% with RO,
don't grow to their to max potential in body size. However their
lifespan isn't cut short because of them being stunted.
If, however, I did not cut the water with RO water, they would be
greatly stunted. Because a fish's internal organs are stunted as well,
it ends up killing them off early.
In case anyone is wondering why I don't make perfect water for them in
the first place....there is a very good reason.
People buying them locally use our local tap water. They have to be
born and raised in harder water to do well in hard water later on.
A local breeder should also take that into consideration (IMO) when
selling locally.
When I get breeding stock from my breeder I buy fish that are aprox
8-9 months old. They aren't fully grown yet, but finish growing here,
and are hormone crazed youngsters that are ready to start pairing off.
These fish I MUST acclimate slowly. The drip method, otherwise it
would be too much of a shock on them.
My breeders has perfect water, so a fish going from that (he lives
very far away from me, but same state) into m y 50% cut hard water
needs to do it very slowly.
Also, I take a lot more time gradually increasing my tap and RO water
to their water over time just to get it to my normal 50/50 water.
When I bring home Cardinals....I turn religious. LOL
Even they do well in the 50/50 water. As long as they make it past the
acclimation of course. Not an easy task, however the tank of cards is
so gorgeous!
I buy small ones, feed them right, and they quickly grow full size.
Not knowing where a fish comes, or whether it was a hobbyist's fish
that was taken in - sometimes you end up buying a fish with issues.
I happen to know a breeder that also breeds bristle nose plecos (I
don't exactly care for his angels - not my type, and don't keep misc
cichlids - his specialty), but I know what I'm getting with his plecs.
He works (for fun) at a local shop too. All their BN pleocs come from
his stock. So when I need to buy one I stop in the shop and make sure
their Jim's. I don't want a customers stock.
I know nothing of the science behind hard water and growth rates. What
I do know is from what I've experienced for over 30 years, and some
simple experiments with growth rates that I've done myself with
different water.

[Mister]

Besides all the stuff that NetMax said, are you certain that your
marbled fish is an ancistrus? No whiskers or stubs yet sounds
suspicious. Even if his growth was arrested because of a lifetime of
poor water quality or poor nutrition, I would expect him to still show
some signs of whiskers by now. Mislabeling is common among the
countless pl*co - like fish, species and varieties get mixed in
collectors and shippers bags, pet shop people are seldom experts in
identifying similar appearing misfits. Your experience is primarily
with albinos, so you might be relying on the pet store's best guess.
Your description reminds of something like some clown pl*cos I've kept
which remained 2 or 3 inches at maturity. Meanwhile, whatever he is
and wherever he's been, if he's eating well and interacting normally
in his environment and his belly is not sunken, I wouldn't risk
exposing him to parasite treatment at this time. Enjoy him for what he
is as long as he appears to be enjoying his life.

MG (Notoriously slow to medicate fish, dogs, and humans.)

On Aug 10, 6:37 pm, "yng...@aol.com" <yng...@aol.com> wrote:

[yng...@aol.com]

Thanks. That's what I'm starting to wonder, whether this fish is
actually an ancistrus. I looked at pictures of clown plecos and the
one I have is not striped, so I think he's not a clown. He is marbled
or what is sometimes called calico, with patches of light and dark.
His eyes are dark rather than red so he was probably not bred from
albinos.

When I bought this marbled ancistrus, there were perhaps 3-4 others in
the tank at the LFS and they were all around the same size; I chose
this one because he had the most interesting variation of light and
dark patches. The LFS I use tends to be pretty picky about only buying
healthy fish, but they also like to buy from home breeders (like me--I
supply them with a lot of albino BN plecos and mine are all healthy
and grow fast). Still, I guess it's possible they bought a batch of
what looked like young marble BN plecos but were stunted or some sub-
species.

He--and the lack of any whiskers coming in despite his age makes me
think more likely it's a she--is active, eats well and although not
shaped exactly like my albinos--the tail seems longer and thinner--the
belly looks normal, not bloated and not sunken. Poops look the same as
the albinos, so I think parasites are not too likely but if s/he has
something, s/he must have brought them from the LFS.

I agree, I hesitate to treat when I don't know whether anything is
really wrong and it could do more harm than good. I know at the
beginning, this new one, who didn't grow up in my tank, didn't know
the routine and the other babies were front and center at feeding time
and so they got first dibs on the algae pellets and zucchini, but the
marbled one did catch on after a while. So it's possible it just
didn't get a lot to eat in the first couple of weeks it was in my
tank.

-yngver

[Andy Gratton]

from the description of the tail possibly might have a Farwella  sp

On Aug 11, 1:54 pm, Mister <mistergarde...@email.toast.net> wrote: > Besides all the stuff that Net...

[yng...@aol.com]

Very interesting. Our local water is on the hard side, but not
extremely so. The LFS has the same water, but you're right, I don't
know where they bought these marbled ancistrus. As I said, my albino
BN's do very well with the water parameters I have and grow fast, but
they are used to it. I've never culled any and have only lost a couple
juveniles (not counting any fry that might have gotten eaten when they
first came out of the cave, because unless I saw them getting eaten I
wouldn't know). The other inhabitants of the tank are some silver and
marble hatchetfish, a betta, and rummynose tetras. I've had them all
for a while, the hatchets and rummies for a couple years and this
particular betta at least a year, and they are doing fine with my
water conditions. But it's possible the water hardness was not what
the little marble BN pleco was raised in. I always thought ancistrus
were pretty adaptable, though.

-yngver

[yng...@aol.com]

Farwella sp. only if there is a kind that looks a lot like a pleco,
and maybe there is.

I'll have to take a photo, but in the meantime, the one I have looks
similar to this:

http://www.planetcatfish.com/images/full/loricariidae/ancistrus/cf_cirrhosus/23.jpg

But the color variation of mine is patches of brown and light, not as
spotted looking as this one. The part between its anal fin and tail
fin (which I called the tail) is a bit longer and thinner than what I
see on my albinos, so maybe that does indicate it didn't get enough
food or had poor water conditions when younger.

-yngver

[Mister]

Sounds like a legitimate reason to start up a new aquarium. Run back
to the LFS and grab the others, cast your magic spell on them so they
breed like crazy. I have a couple dozen tanks you can have any size
you want; cheap. A long 30 would be perfect.. 20 Long for $10 if
you're on a budget. I'll throw in a free Guardian heater and a filter
- Whisper, of course. Lots of Whispers.

Never could get ancistrus to breed.

Mister Gardener

[Kel's Mustang]

I have to agree with Mr. G. about grabbing some more and trying to
spawn them. You do have a knack for it.
Like Mr. G....I too haven't been able to breed them. I have males and
females. The dominant male has his own cave, but nothing. Nada.
I've seen courtship, but never any babies. = (

[Kel's Mustang]

On Aug 12, 12:21 pm, "yng...@aol.com" <yng...@aol.com> wrote:
> Very interesting. Our local water is on the hard side, but not
> extremely so. The LFS has the same water, but you're right, I don't
> know where they bought these marbled ancistrus.

I just remembered the BN by son had. I had it for a few months. He
needed one that didn't die. Bad pet shop by his house for BN plecos.
They always die.
Mine that I get from Jim the breeder that works at a local shop too
has lovely ones that like to live.
So after months and months of looking like a total female with two
little - itty bitty nubs on the top of "her" head (where my females
have a couple), she decided to stop pretending and grew out his
tendrils. They grew in fast, all at once and ended up being longer
than my older male.
I wonder, and I'm totally guessing here, if because when he was in my
tank with a dominant male, juvie male, and a couple of females that he
waited until there were no males in a tank to finally grow his out.
Their behavior together was first mistaken by me as courtship. They
looked like a grown pair having a dance a thon. Instead it was a duel.

[Andy Gratton]

Only thing is once they start breeding like Cichlids they  dont want  to stop lol    I have Hard Water living  as I do  in a Chalk  predominate area  where all our water comes from ,  and they will adapt  lol 

[NetMax]

Many cichlids can/will delay the appearance of their male
characterstics while there is a dominant male in the tank. Makes
perfect sense for while they can do it. Keeps them from being beaten
up and there's a chance the dominant male will get taken out by
someone else.

NetMax

On Aug 13, 5:28 am, Andy Gratton <anglerfis...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Only thing is once they start breeding like Cichlids they  dont want  to
> stop lol    I have Hard Water living  as I do  in a Chalk  predominate area
>  where all our water comes from ,  and they will adapt  lol
>

> On 13 August 2011 03:06, Kel's Mustang <KellsBlueMust...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 12, 12:21 pm, "yng...@aol.com" <yng...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > Very interesting. Our local water is on the hard side, but not
> > > extremely so. The LFS has the same water, but you're right, I don't
> > > know where they bought these marbled ancistrus.
>
> > I just remembered the BN by son had. I had it for a few months. He
> > needed one that didn't die. Bad pet shop by his house for BN plecos.
> > They always die.
> > Mine that I get from Jim the breeder that works at a local shop too
> > has lovely ones that like to live.
> > So after months and months of looking like a total female with two
> > little - itty bitty nubs on the top of "her" head (where my females
> > have a couple), she decided to stop pretending and grew out his
> > tendrils. They grew in fast, all at once and ended up being longer
> > than my older male.
> > I wonder, and I'm totally guessing here, if because when he was in my
> > tank with a dominant male, juvie male, and a couple of females that he
> > waited until there were no males in a tank to finally grow his out.
> > Their behavior together was first mistaken by me as courtship. They

> > looked like a grown pair having a dance a thon. Instead it was a duel.- Hide quoted text -

[yng...@aol.com]

So is it possible that plecos might do the same thing? My male BN is
about five inches, plenty of bristles and he doesn't take any guff
from anyone. I used to have a couple of adult rosy red minnows in the
tank and when he reached adult size I think he contributed to their
deaths. He ousted them from their usual hiding holes and he would push
them around with his side stabbers displayed. I think the stress is
what eventually killed them, although they were getting old anyway.

I do have one albino BN that is starting to get little bristle stubs
and he is about 2.5 inches. He needs to go but my LFS has moved and
doesn't reopen until Sept. so I'm stuck with my current stock for a
few more weeks. I've never seen my adult male BN get aggressive with
his own progeny, though, although I normally sell them off by the time
they get to two inches.
-yngver

[yng...@aol.com]

That might be what's going on. Eventually this marble BN will be moved
to a new tank with some panda corys as company, but I haven't gotten
around to setting it up yet. Was thinking maybe by himself he will
grow more. Although I usually keep one or two juvenile BN's in each
tank to clean algae, and I don't think they grow any faster away from
the main BN tank.

-yngver

[yng...@aol.com]

We didn't do anything special with these ancistrus. Bought a pair of
youngsters and they turned out to be male and female. The only thing
they seemed to need was a good breeding cave because the first few
times she deposited her eggs on the underside of a decoration and they
got knocked loose. We bought a small cichlid cave and that was the
honeymoon cottage for many fry. Had three female bettas in the tank
and when we saw them eating fry, removed them, so of course you need
to make sure nothing is eating the fry. But the current inhabitants,
the hatchet fish and rummynose and one male betta who never bothers
anything, don't eat ancistrus fry.

The male outgrew the cichlid cave and the last time when he was
fanning the eggs, he knocked them out onto the substrate. We got a
larger cave and he is still trying to decide whether he likes it. She
has eggs though so he needs to make up his mind soon. I think he wants
the cave back where the small one was but it won't fit. Location,
location, location.

So my own experience has been that if the breeding pair has a suitable
cave they both like, they'll breed. I have read that some males are
better dads than others but i don't have anything to compare to.

I have also had success with panda corys--just a couple babies now and
then, but I understand that breeding them isn't always easy. I started
out with four about three years ago and last time I counted there were
nine in the tank. Which is why I need a bigger tank. I didn't do
anything special with the corys either.

On the other hand, I've never had luck breeding anything else (except
snails and cherry shrimp!).
-yngver

[yng...@aol.com]

When you look in the cave, do you ever see eggs? The first two times I
saw eggs, there were no babies but after the third time I guess the
male figured out how to be a good dad and there were fry galore after
that.

-yngver

On Aug 12, 8:53 pm, "Kel's Mustang" <KellsBlueMust...@aol.com> wrote:

[Kel's Mustang]

On Aug 15, 3:06 pm, "yng...@aol.com" <yng...@aol.com> wrote:
> When you look in the cave, do you ever see eggs? The first two times I
> saw eggs, there were no babies but after the third time I guess the
> male figured out how to be a good dad and there were fry galore after
> that.
> -yngver
>

Hi there.
My male's cave isn't something that you can really see into. It's a
fake piece of driftwood with a hole at one end. Fish can swim in and
across to the other side.
Small fish that is. I'm guessing my problem is the female bettas. They
often swim right on in when the male isn't in. Ditto with the weather
loaches.
Either of them could eat eggs or fry. How well does a male guard?
Fiercely like a cichlid parent or just a swish of the tail if he's
home?
Those switch blade cheekers come out when guarding a meal, so I assume
they'd use them for guarding fry too.

[Andy Gratton]

Every time mine have bred  the first  time  I know is when I see wrigglers  the Male  has his selected ornament and it is impossible  to see inside it  but he will stay by the spawning area  and wont let  the females near it,    The spines  are mainly used for  defence  or when a threat is close by   but  I have seen  Adult Males  weighing  each other up  and it is flick knives at 10 paces  Mind you  my Ancistrus  have been in with some  Boisterous  Cichlids and held there own and after  a few  jabs  the Cichlids  learned not  to mess  around with them.

Attached a couple of pics  of my BNs

[yng...@aol.com]

Did you make the hole in the driftwood or did it come that way? I've
been looking for something like that, since my male has outgrown the
cichlid cave the pair have been using. But so far he doesn't seem to
like the larger one I put in for him. It might be too large; I think
they like the caves to be snug. What I have done with the caves is
just pick them up and look inside; if he is guarding eggs he won't
come out even if the cave is momentarily removed from water. But the
cichlid caves are whitish grey so it's easy to see bright orange eggs
inside.

Yes, my female bettas were eating the BN fry. I removed the females
and swapped tanks with a male betta who doesn't bother other fish or
fry.

I think the guarding skill of the male BN varies. The cichlid caves
I've been using only have one entrance, so nothing else dares swim in
when the male is inside or in front of it. As far as I know when they
are guarding eggs and fry they may not even leave to eat. I do drop an
algae pellet near the entrance when the male is taking care of eggs or
fry so that to eat, all he has to do is stick his head out. The male I
have is pretty fierce about protecting the eggs and fry and doesn't
hesitate to show those side stickers, but by now any other fish in the
tank know to stay out of his way. When I had female bettas in the
tank, they only ate fry once they were free swimming and left the
cave. The bettas wouldn't dare tangle with the male BN.
-yngver

[yng...@aol.com]

Nice pics.

From what I have observed, an adult male BN can defend himself against
just about any other kind of fish. I have read that even if a big fish
tried to eat an ancistrus, he sticks out his side prongs and the big
fish can't swallow him and gets his mouth sliced up to boot.

I've seen my male flaring out his side stickers when there was no
threat around, so I think sometimes they do it just to show everyone
else in the tank who is boss.
-yngver

>  Breakfast.JPG
> 79KViewDownload
>
>  Breakfast3.JPG
> 82KViewDownload

[Andy Gratton]

The Driftwood  came like that   and is  real bogwood  not  Mopani wood  they  dont like  grazing mopani  but  will gladly  graze over  bogwood 

[Kel's Mustang]

On Aug 17, 1:06 pm, "yng...@aol.com" <yng...@aol.com> wrote:
> Did you make the hole in the driftwood or did it come that way? I've
> been looking for something like that, since my male has outgrown the
> cichlid cave the pair have been using.

It came that way,
Petsmart special. I have real driftwood for them to eat. This is
purely ornamental. I use it to prop up other plants in the background.
The hole at the end was there. It's supposed to buried into the
gravel, but I prop it up a bit so that my male BN can have access to
it.
It came with fake plastic plant on it, but I ripped those off. They
were ugly- even for plastic plants! = O