Breeding Hi-Fin Lyre-Tail Swords

[Javadan]

This is Frank's original post about breeding them:

On Nov 22, 2:35 pm, Frank Bayne <frankr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Javadan <dansa...@comcast.net> wrote: >Haven't replaced the male yet, & might not if I can't get one capable
> >of breeding.
>
> "long finned" ? ... If it's a hi-fin lyre-tail swordtail your talking about, males can't breed without a little help. If it's just a hi-fin male, or just a common swordtail, it can breed. If your female is a hi-fin lyre-tail, bred to a hi-fin male that came out of a hi-fin lyre-tail, 50% of the fry would be hi-fin lyre-tails. Your female bred to a common swordtail male, you would get very few, if any hi-fin lyre-tail fry......... Frank


It's a hi-fin lyre-tail sword, but the fins are the longest I've
seen. There's a pic of them on the files page in the livebearer
category of the TFA anniversary fish show. Same pics here:
http://picasaweb.google.com/Thefreshwateraquarium/BowlShowLivebearers

A local guy breeds them. They just show up at the lfs once in a while
at medium adult size. I don't know how he does it, but they're
beautiful fish IMO. I like red-orange fish & I like long fins & these
have both. My male wasn't able to breed because of a hook in his
gonopodium. He also got tired quickly from swinging that thing around
while trying to mate, being that it was as long as his entire body. I
want to ask the fish room manager to call me when he gets more in so
that I can get a male that appears able to breed. What is the 'little
help' you mentioned that they need?

jd

[Frank Bayne]

Javadan <dans...@comcast.net> wrote:

>It's a hi-fin lyre-tail sword, but the fins are the longest I've
>seen. There's a pic of them on the files page in the livebearer
>category of the TFA anniversary fish show. Same pics here:
>http://picasaweb.google.com/Thefreshwateraquarium/BowlShowLivebearers

Hmmm - show quality. Female looks as though it very well could have placed.

 

>A local guy breeds them. They just show up at the lfs once in a while
>at medium adult size. I don't know how he does it, but they're
>beautiful fish IMO.

 

He eather uses a hi-fin male (that came out of a hi-fin lyre-tail female) to breed with a hi-fin lyre-tail female, or does it by artificial insemination. A hi-fin male would have a useable gonopodium. That cross would produce a little more than 50% hi-fin lyre-tail per batch of fry.

 

> My male wasn't able to breed because of a hook in his
>gonopodium.

 

No, a hi-fin lyre-tail male has a little extra finnage along with a little extra gonopodium. He simply can't guide it.

 

>What is the 'little
>help' you mentioned that they need?

Artificial insemination ................ Frank

[Javadan]

On Nov 23, 2:02 am, Frank Bayne <frankr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >What is the 'little
>
> >help' you mentioned that they need?
>
> Artificial insemination ................ Frank

Thanks, Frank. I thought that's what you might have meant, but doubt
that I'd go that far.

jd

[Donna Camp]

You have got to be kidding! This is done for aquarium pets? Please tell me there is a serious fish show circuit for these fish.

 

Donna

[Javadan]

On Nov 23, 7:49 am, "Donna Camp" <droll...@nycap.rr.com> wrote:
> You have got to be kidding! This is done for aquarium pets? Please tell me there is a serious fish show circuit for these fish.
>
> Donna

A lot of people are very serious about fish that they breed & there
are some big fish shows. Breeders put a lot of time, effort, & love
into raising their fish & are proud of that, rightly so. I have also
found that almost all 'fish' people seem to be very friendly, easy to
talk to, & eager to share anything about this hobby. NetMax wrote a
post a little while back about different types of fish people. It was
amusing, but also pretty accurate.

As far as seriousness about it goes, some Vets will also treat fish.
I think MG just posted about one in his area. Considering the cost of
some fish & the potential of breeder quality fish, a vet bill is just
an incidental. Big breeder size Koi that breed true would start price
wise in the 5 figure range. I just talked with a guy from a Koi farm
in NJ who paid about $50,000 US each for his big breeders, but they
are huge & the koi he sells are absolutely beautiful. I saw patterns
& types that I hadn't seen before & the colors were vibrant. I guess
he's a pretty big koi breeder, but he took the time for friendly chat
with me even though he knew right off the bat that I wasn't a buying
customer. Serious is nicer when it's mixed with a good dose of
friendliness.

jd

[Donna Camp]

I never realized there were fish being sold for that much money! I've read
about Betta shows and Angel shows, but, never shows for any other fish.

I always knew that most 'pet people' were friendly and willing to share
info. What an education this morning! Thanks for sharing.

Donna

----- Original Message -----
From: "Javadan" <dans...@comcast.net>
To: "The Freshwater Aquarium" <The-Freshwa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 8:29 AM
Subject: [TFA] Re: Breeding Hi-Fin Lyre-Tail Swords

>
>
>

[Frank Bayne]

Donna Camp <drol...@nycap.rr.com> wrote:

>You have got to be kidding! This is done for aquarium pets? Please tell me there is >a serious fish show circuit for these fish.

 

They are out there, but I don't beleave near as much as they were in the past. Might be just me though - once I droped out of the fish clubs, showing fish and judgeing shows, I kind of got out of touch with the outside fish world................. Frank

 

[Andy Gratton]

I actually have  a book that  shows standards required for  Show Guppies also covers  Swordtails, Goldfish,and 4 varieties of  Betta  Finnage,

[Frank Bayne]

Javadan <dans...@comcast.net> wrote:

 

>Thanks, Frank. I thought that's what you might have meant, but doubt
>that I'd go that far.

Easyer than you think, and the offspring would be almost 100% hi-fin lyre-tails! ............ Frank

[Mister Gardener]

Andy Gratton wrote:

I actually have  a book that  shows standards required for  Show Guppies also covers  Swordtails, Goldfish,and 4 varieties of  Betta  Finnage,

The Angelfish Society is a self appointed American Kennel Club for angelfish. Here's a link to their angelfish standards to date:

http://theangelfishsociety.org/standards5.htm

[Mister Gardener]

There is a national fish hatchery in my town that provides the millions of salmon eggs and smelts for the North American coastal rivers, they also grow the trout which end up being stocked in streams all over the Northeast. Since time began, the public school fifth grade class spends a day at the hatchery getting their first school board approved lesson in sexual reproduction. They also learn about chickens and eggs that year. The artificial insemination at the hatchery is fascinating to watch - the female's eggs are gently squeezed out of her at the precisely calculated moment into a bucket and male fish are then held above the bucket and their sperm is literally milked from them. A worker sticks his big hand in the bucket, stirs things up pretty good, and the bucket contents are poured into shallow pools. So I'm trying to picture in my head this operation being micro sized for swords. Not easy to visualize. The workers must have tiny hands, I guess.

MG

[Andy Gratton]

Hmmmmmmmmmm  wonder if they employ Leprechauns ??

[Javadan]

On Nov 23, 11:23 am, Frank Bayne <frankr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Well, now I'm wondering. How on earth would artificial insemination
be done with livebearers? I mean first the sperm has to be gotten out
of the male...somehow, & then inserted into the female... somehow, and
they're so small. I can't even imagine how, but I can think of a lot
of jokes along that line. <g> I realize it might be too involved
for you to type it out, in which case maybe you have a link to a site
that explains it?

jd

[Gill Passman]

Can I just say that I started reading this thread with my early
morning cup of tea and it stuck certain images in my head.....as the
day as progressed these images have got worse not better........I'm
now worried that at 12.50am I am now going to go to bed with these
images - although as the day has progressed I am slightly getting
curious as to how you artificially inseminate a small live bearer but
somehow I think such things shouldn't be contemplated just before
bedtime - cows I can kind of understand but fish no......can you guys
hold off a couple of hours so I can be safely tucked up in bed and
then just have to face the answers over tomorrow morning's first cup
of tea again???/
:-)

Gill

[Javadan]

Yeah, it does seem to be a bit surreal. Speaking of pictures in your
head, did you take a look at the picture of that male? I could just
never get over the length of his gonopodium; easily as long as his
entire body. It's usually the female livebearer that gets tired &
needs a rest, but after a few times of swinging that thing around
while chasing her & trying to mate the male had to stop & take a
breather. <g> Sorry if that seems too graphic, but I always found
it to be rather humorous. I miss the old boy. I lost interest in
that tank after he died, maybe because the female is a constant
reminder of my messing up & losing him. I just feed them & do routine
maintenance. Haven't even taken care of the aquascape for a long
time. Gotta get another male for her, although she would dwarf a
medium size male at this point.

jd

[Frank Bayne]

Javadan <dans...@comcast.net> wrote:

Well, now I'm wondering. How on earth would artificial insemination

be done with livebearers? ......

I realize it might be too involved
for you to type it out, in which case maybe you have a link to a site
that explains it?

http://www.ctsa.org/upload/publication/Lyretail631961977999811168.pdf

They sure make it sound a _lot_harder than it really is. ........... Frank

[T.J. Truchon]

Hmm, a really small syringe would do it, just push it a little way in
the vent and inject... I have no clue how you would get the stuff in
the first place....

--
T.J. Truchon
http://IcedTea.Wordpress.com/

[Frank Bayne]

"T.J. Truchon" <caph...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hmm, a really small syringe would do it, just push it a little way in
the vent and inject...

 

I guess that's how it's done now-a-days. When I tried it with a blunt syringe, I killed the females - three of them. Then I tried a syringe without the needle - just put the sperm on/in the area of the females vent and rub with your finger - works 50% of the time, or more...... Frank

[NetMax]

Thanks for the article Frank. Some interesting details on clove oil
concentrations as well. The Hawaii university institutes have been a
great source of info for the breeding of freshwater ornamental fish.
Seems ironic when they are on an island in the middle of the ocean,
and I don't think there are even any freshwater Hawaii fishes.
~~

On Nov 23, 11:20 pm, Frank Bayne <frankr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

[Frank Bayne]

NetMax <comput...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Seems ironic when they are on an island in the middle of the ocean,
>and I don't think there are even any freshwater Hawaii fishes.

I know there is freshwater gamefish - lg. & small mouth bass, oscar, tucunare, channel cat, and rainbow trout, so I'm sure there are small species........... Frank

 

[T.J. Truchon]

Do I want to know how you acquired fish-milt? (yay I don't have to say
sperm.... Dang it!)

--
T.J. Truchon
http://IcedTea.Wordpress.com/

[Frank Bayne]

"T.J. Truchon" <caph...@gmail.com> wrote:

Do I want to know how you acquired fish-milt? (yay I don't have to say
sperm.... Dang it!)

Take a look at this site; http://www.ctsa.org/upload/publication/Lyretail631961977999811168.pdf

>......syringe

[Mister Gardener]

Javadan wrote:

 Gotta get another male for her, although she would dwarf a
medium size male at this point.


  

Reminds me of I girl I knew in college . . . Seriously though - I've read that there are left handed and right handed males and females in some livebearer species, and a left handed male is unable to breed with a right handed female. Is there any truth to that?

MG

[Mister Gardener]

Frank Bayne wrote:

http://www.ctsa.org/upload/publication/Lyretail631961977999811168.pdf

They sure make it sound a _lot_harder than it really is. ........... Frank

Bedtime reading for Gill.

MG

[Frank Bayne]

Mister Gardener <misterg...@email.toast.net> wrote;
  

 I've read that there are left handed and right handed males and females in some livebearer species, and a left handed male is unable to breed with a right handed female. Is there any truth to that?
MG

Nope - his gonopodium swings both ways ;-)   ............... Frank

[Andy Gratton]

I thought that was a Porcine  not Piscine trait 

On 24/11/2007, Mister Gardener <misterg...@email.toast.net> wrote:

[Mister Gardener]

Andy Gratton wrote:

I thought that was a Porcine  not Piscine trait 

You're correct. At that time I was raising both, and their food was interchangeable. Both enjoyed snacking on Caprine food as well.

MG

[Gill Passman]

On Nov 24, 11:45 am, Mister Gardener <mistergarde...@email.toast.net>
wrote:

Glad I didn't wait until bedtime for that one......maybe someone
should try selective breeding to produce male fish with smaller
gonopodiums as a solution......

Gill

[NetMax]

re: breeding for a smaller gonopodium..
Unlikely to happen, most breeders in the trade are men ;~)
~~

[Tynk]

On Nov 24, 6:30�am, Frank Bayne <frankr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Mister Gardener <mistergarde...@email.toast.net> wrote;

>
> � �I've read that there are left handed and right handed males and females in some livebearer species, and a left handed male is unable to breed with a right handed female. Is there any truth to that?
> MG
>
> Nope - his gonopodium swings both ways ;-) � ............... Frank

= O OH!!
LOL....this is not going the right way in my head.......= )~

[T.J. Truchon]

The "four-eyed fish" has a reproductive system like this. But its been
found that the males can usually streach around and mate with the
wrong females. Kinda reminds me of someone parking a car on the wrong
side of the gas pump and streaching the hose to reach because their
too stubborn to turn around the car.

--
T.J. Truchon
http://IcedTea.Wordpress.com/

[Mister Gardener]

T.J. Truchon wrote:

The "four-eyed fish" has a reproductive system like this. But its been
found that the males can usually streach around and mate with the
wrong females. Kinda reminds me of someone parking a car on the wrong
side of the gas pump and streaching the hose to reach because their
too stubborn to turn around the car.

Guy's gotta have a pretty long hose to do that. (Hey, someone had to say it!)

MG

[T.J. Truchon]

On Nov 24, 2007 11:57 AM, Mister Gardener

I fully admit it was a setup, sometimes you just have to play the straitman.

[Mister Gardener]

T.J. Truchon wrote:

I fully admit it was a setup, sometimes you just have to play the straitman.

  

Grrrrrrrrr.

[Javadan]

On Nov 23, 11:20 pm, Frank Bayne <frankr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> http://www.ctsa.org/upload/publication/Lyretail631961977999811168.pdf
> They sure make it sound a _lot_harder than it really is. ........... Frank

Well, I could get a microscope or a jeweler's loop, but not sure I'd
want to go that far. Have to see if I can get a male & take it from
there. I'd probably just keep it simple like you suggested & see what
happens. Thanks Frank!

jd