Need amp/cab recommendation

[TR Kelley]

Yo Loze -
TR here, long time no post, just lurking.
But now, i need your wisdom. I hate music stores, i can't hear right
and get distracted, and can't realistically sit through a lot of amp
testing in that environment. I want to go in armed with a top three
prequalified list of rigs, my budget is right around $1000 USD. Any
and all thoughts would be appreciated.

Here's the deal; I'm liking being in a rock band. i realize i need a
different amp than the GK 112 that's carried me through the last
decade of folky stuff. Outboarding a powered sub has been a good
stopgap, it makes the low-end kill, but the top is breaking up not in
a good way and there's not enough clean midrange punch.

Scenario - it's a classic rock/blues/funk trio of bass, drums, guitar
with a chick vocalist out front. Drummer is playing a 1968 Ludwig 5-
piece set with dark-sounding heads and big shimmery vintage cymbals.
Guitarist has a Marshall halfstack and an outboard Fender blues junior
on my side of the stage for tighter monitoring, plays a strat and a
couple custom jobs - his command of tone and judicious use of effects
is phenomena. My amp is not giving me what i need to hear to be an
effective counter-harmony voice as well as a rhythm presence. I do not
stay below the 5th fret :) We do riff-trading solos, etc.....

I'm playing these short-scale axes:
SX Jazz (bright, aggressive), this is my favorite bass.
Custom P-clone (growly punchy),
1970 vintage mahogany-body defretted Harmony with hot humbuckers
(dark, woody, deep).
I use a mod-delay-chorus on any or all of them for some of the
psychedelic stuff and ballads. but no other effects in the chain.

I'm often a thumb-thumper, often regular 2-finger walking, sometimes
get to I tap arpeggios, sometimes I tic-tac with a pick. Slap? Not
really. Jaco never slapped. :)

All these sound radically different from each other, and that makes
tone shaping with one channel a time-suck. I love the freedom of a
trio, lots of room for me to be heard, but still be the BASS.

I'd like an amp with at least two channels, and plenty of power for
outdoor parties and 200+ seat clubs. I don't like bright hifi sound,
or tweeters in bass amps. Rather have a separate head/cab(s) than a
combo. Our PA only carries the 4 vocals and a bit of instruments for
the lead vocalist to cue on. Amp size & weight is not really an issue
for me as it was in the folky bands, big gear looks cool in a rock
band and we have 2 vans and 2 strong guys, I'm just not really into
the bulk of the 8x10 thing :).
The tone I want is vintage, has plenty of marrow-shaking thump, rich
chewy mids and smooth highs with not a lot of brightness or clack.
Warm and overdriven just a bit, but no distortion. I often play
octaves, chords and harmonics and hate to hear break-up and
intermodulation mush.

Any suggestions of what to look at first? Thanks for any thoughts and
ideas you can give.
Stay low -
trk

[kra...@bitstream.net]

Although I generally hate the Sans Amp (I think it's a mid-sucker),
they have a three channel version that might help you.

I like my Genz Benz Shuttle, but I think the tone may be more tame than
you'll want. I'd recommend looking at the Gallien Krueger MB200 or
MB500. Like the Shuttle, they're about a $1/watt.

Speakers are going to be a challenge. I also like my Genz Benz NeoX
212T, but it was $600 used and this was before neo based speakers (very
light) had their price skyrocket. I wouldn't part with mine and I
imagine those that are selling are getting a premium price for neo
speakers.

KO

[Edwin Hurwitz]

I'm not sure what to suggest when it comes to heads, although it sounds like you are making a pretty Ampeg-y description of what you are after. As far as speakers go, I would look into a used EV TL606 design cabinet if you want good, loud and cheap. If you were anywhere near Boulder, I have one which I don't play anymore that I'd send you off with for a while to see if you like it. Most of the time I suggest that people look into a fEARful cabinet, as it does anything that you put into it and does it better than any other cabinet I've played, but it's slightly more expensive than what you might need and very hifi (which doesn't necessarily translate into bright and clanky, it does deep and smooth, punch and gritty, etc. all equally well). The TL606 designs are everywhere and available used for a great price. With the right driver, they can be damn near indestructible. I put an EVM in mine for a while that was lying around, thinking that I'd play it until it blew up. It took 5 years of hard playing to blow that sucker up, using a QSC PL2402.

So, for a rig in that price area I would suggest:

Good lightweight power: Perhaps the Peavey 1600? Cheap and light and gets great reviews at Talkbass. It can be run bridged into mono for probably more power than you need. $300 at Amazon
Good preamp: The Alembic F2B would be perfect for a two channel solution, but pricey. I hope other people have good advice here.
Cabinet:
A) cheap option: EV TL606 15". $250-$300 used.
B) better option: fEARful 15/6. With this cabinet, you may not need a 2 channel amp. A lot of the amp tweaking I've discovered I've needed to do is due to getting over the voicing of a speaker. Since using these cabs, my eqs have stayed pretty much flat for a variety of tones achieved by changing technique or onboard tone controls. Oh, I should also mention that my 15/6/1 (with tweeter, which you don't need) is under 50lbs and can handle huge power and goes seriously low. Much lower than any other cabinet I've played through, excepting Meyer subwoofers. A great benefit of such goodly lowness is that it's not the kind of deep sound that interferes with a PA and creates a muddy stage. It's quick and deep and distinct. No break up or intermodulation mush. Chords are clear and each note is distinct. Another huge benefit of these speakers is that they have amazing dispersion. I've been told by bandmates that they've never been able to hear me so clearly in every register all over the stage. Everyone who hears them or plays through them is pretty much astounded. $500 or so, used or you can easily build them if you are handy with tools for not huge money.

Feel free to pester me for more info!
Edwin

[Menoj Roekalea]

Sounds like you need a 2x15 cab with good (high) wattage.

Groeten/Greetings,
Menoj

2011/9/12 Edwin Hurwitz <ed...@indra.com>

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[Geoff Sprung]

TR,

If you like the gk mb, have you considered the gk 800rb? A great head, pretty indestructible, and easily found used for under 400 bucks.
As for cabs, I second Edwin's advice. Look into the 606 designs. I'm using an Orange 15, which is a 606 design, and am super happy. I'm a fan of the old 8x10s, and orange has a lot of the same tonal character. It also fits in the back of a sedan.
if you are already using pedals, I would look into using another pedal instead of a channel switching amp.
Whatever you get, enjoy the process.
Happy hunting!

[Kraig Olmstead]

You can find the fEarful plans here:  http://greenboy.us/fEARful/

There's a list of people who will make them for you (for a price of course) here:  http://greenboy.us/fEARful/#builders

Nothing in Oregon, sorry.  There are plans and parts lists at the site, so if you know a local cabinet maker (really, domestic home cabinet maker) they could probably do it pretty easily.  They should use void free plywood, which cabinet makers tend to use anyway.  The bracing is important.  With proper bracing you can get by with thinner plywood (1/2") which makes the cab lighter.

I've read a lot about the fEarfuls, but I've never heard one.

KO

[Edwin Hurwitz]

On Sep 12, 2011, at 4:16 PM, Kraig Olmstead wrote:

You can find the fEarful plans here:  http://greenboy.us/fEARful/

There's a list of people who will make them for you (for a price of course) here:  http://greenboy.us/fEARful/#builders

Nothing in Oregon, sorry.  There are plans and parts lists at the site, so if you know a local cabinet maker (really, domestic home cabinet maker) they could probably do it pretty easily.  They should use void free plywood, which cabinet makers tend to use anyway.  The bracing is important.  With proper bracing you can get by with thinner plywood (1/2") which makes the cab lighter.

I've read a lot about the fEarfuls, but I've never heard one.

I've bought two used and built a third from a kit at Speakerhardware.com. Beats the heck out of me why anyone would sell one, but I don't mind!

Edwin

[Bill Rizzi]

    I'll second the GK800RB suggestion.  I've had mine for years and it just doesn't stop no matter how I abuse it.  I use it with a BagEnd 15 but it can also bi-amp if that's your thing.  It works for just about any kind of gig other than a big outdoor setting.  I transport them both on a collapsible cart along with an Auralex pad and often don't even bother taking them off the cart.

    Bill

[Ziegler, Robert]

It sounds like you are in the same position that I am.  I am not in the PA, need to fill medium size rooms, and must hold my own against the volume of the Marshall thing.  Also like you – I am not opposed to carrying a good size rig if the payback is tone and projection – this last point is what will set you free.  So I also agree with Menoj Roekalea about a 2x15 being the least you need.  You mentioned you would like to have big gear and have the ability to move it – so you are set.

 

You also mentioned that you want vintage tone.  Once again what I use.  Vintage is vintage – you want that then that is what you get.  I currently use everything from 301 W bins to medium size 2x15s.  Matters on the room.

 

Cabinet.

You can’t change the laws of physics – if you want a big sound you need a big cab.  Then – the tuning and construction (like found in 606) comes in. The reason I use a differ cab in differ room is to overcome what limits the room creates.  The main driving force is projection.  Going wireless years ago was an enlightening experience beyond belief!  I never realized that something that sounded great in tone and volume may not be throwing more than 30 feet from the stage.  Some rooms you can easily project – others not at all.   I have to hear it for myself – don’t trust what people sitting out there say.  Of the boxes that I am using – here are four that get to go out and play the most.

 

In some cases I went for different speakers with additional power handling.  Something like Eminence Legend speakers are bright enough to not need a tweeter.  But – don’t buy the speakers unless you need the extra overhead.

 

Acoustic 406 Wide.  (2x15) This is my main battle amp.  Tight and articulate.  Good low end throw.  Tuned to 31 HZ.  That center port really works – serious thunder.  If it is the version with the white dust covers on the speakers – bright enough not to need a tweeter.  They can be found used for $200 up.  Here is a link.  http://acoustic.homeunix.net/twiki/bin/view/Acoustic/BassCabinet406wide

 

Sunn 215B – also known as the 215S –NOT a 215BH.  (2x15) The difference was the silver face or white baffle styling it seems.  Very good low end throw.  With stock speakers a little weak on the low E note as tuning was about 70HZ I think.  Not as tight and articulate as the 406.  Stock speakers are very nice in tone but only handle 100 watts – so I upgraded.  I got my cab for $200 – but was lucky.  Nice thing about these is they are easy to sell if you don’t want it.  I have a thread on TalkBass where I cleaned mine up.  http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/sunn-215b-restoration-739158/

 

Ampeg 610HLF – USA made version!  When standing next to it probably one of the nicest sounding cabs – though  bit “Dark”.  Very punchy and quick – it does have a variable tweeter.  However – on certain stages just has terrible throw – when going through a PA the sound dude never complains about it.  Even used it will be the most pricey.  This is the box I would least suggest due to price and throw.

 

Acoustic 402 – (2x15) Easily the easiest to move of all.  Very bright and tight – guitar players use them sometimes – decent low end.  Low end throw better than the Ampeg but not the 406.  They are not really sought after and you should not have to pay a lot.  http://acoustic.homeunix.net/twiki/bin/view/Acoustic/BassCabinet402

 

By the way – the Sunn 215BH is the best sounding 2x15 I have heard.  But that is really heavy – harder to move than a 301.  The internal baffling creates a coiled horn like a tuba – just throws tight low end everywhere.  I am also currently refurbing a Sunn 2x12 to set on top of an 18” PA sub – that will be interesting :-)

 

 

Head

I second what some said about an EQ pedal rather than insisting on a 2 channel.  Step on it and you get your tone and volume change.  This will free up your shopping.  Though you can’t blend both channels that way.

 

Otherwise not much help here – I have stayed away from the current Chinese crap.  Even the new Ampeg 7-Pros are getting bad reviews for durability.  I would not pay extra for the brand name if it was Chinese – just get what has good reviews.  I suppose used PeaVeys are still a good bang for the buck?  No idea on Hartke.

 

I use vintage Acoustic 370, 320, occasionally a USA made Ampeg SVT4-Pro.  I don’t like the Shuttle and other mini heads as they just fart out when aggressively used.  I know people that ditched their mini heads after they started playing louder stages and bigger rooms again.  Downside of a vintage head is that it is old and someday you will need fix it.

 

More details if desired.  This is already too long :-P

 

-          Ziggy -

 

[Denver Ken]

Welcome back, TR! You said two channels so that rules out my new
fave, the Ampeg Portaflex PF500 head. But as for cabs, Dave at Avatar
Speakers can build you a 2x10 or even 4x10 that will KILL and he can
leave out the tweeter if you want, or you can just turn it off. Now he
has lotsa covering and grill cloth choices as well.

Happy hunting!

Denver Ken

[TR Kelley]

Bill! That's exactly the rig I used to have, used it with my Zon in the 90s when i was on tour with the girl-folk thing doing festivals. Sold it in a fit of "f*ck it", still see it around town at blues jams. Still sounds good:)

trk

[Walter Harley]

Hi, TR. My personal opinion is that the TC Electronics gear is the
stuff to beat, right now - I think in terms of tonal flexibility,
power, and sound, for the price they're just great, and for some of
them you can program preamp settings and then select them at the push
of a button. But, the Combo450 (programmable pre, 2x10 cab) is a bit
out of your range, at just under $1500. The RH450 head (same head
without the cab) is about $600, so if you can find a cab that works,
you could go separate and still stay under budget.

I'll sell you my Eden WT400 if you'd like; it's been idle since I got
my RH450. Ping me offline if interested; walter h at cafewalter dot
com.

-walter harley

[Eric Cohen]

It depends on how vintage you want your sound. A Fender P bass and
Fender Bassman with 2 12's or 15's would sound great, but won't match
that Marshall Stack. My favorite "vintage sound" is really almost
anything Ampeg or one of the good GK's, e.g the 700 or 1001 models. I
don't trust the other models, and GK had some reliability issues. For
speakers, check out the Avatars. 'Great reviews. They make a 2 x 12
which should satisfy. 2 x 15's will shake your kishkas. 'Love it.
4 x 10 plus a 1 x 15 0r 18 could be even better.
Thub thumping is great, especially combined with palm muting near the
bridge.
BTW, as far I know, Jaco COULD slap (not that he did much of it). One
of his best friends here in Fla told me. Enjoy the search. Eric

[Al]

Hi from Allen, long time lurker!

I'd take Walter up on his WT400 if the price is right. I have had one
for 10 years paired
with a 4ohm D210XLT and always heard the same thing, "That's all
you're playing out
of?". True, I like an Entwistle-ish sound, but the head is quite
versatile. I did
sell the cab for two neo D112XLT's due to the weight and shape of the
210, but I still
love the amp. I also have a tiny WTX500 that sounds great, but not old
school, so I would
suggest you not go that route. Same goes for the neo mags, just not
as
"classic" as the big mags to my ears anyway.
As for cabs, I am of the two medium cabs as opposed to one huge cab
philosophy. I used an
Acoustic 370 with two Carvin 1x15's way back when you could opt for
400 watt EV's, one on
each side of the drummer, and I don't think I ever tuned up more than
4 or 5 even
outside. Hope you end up with a rig that makes you grin as soon as you
start each song!

Allen

[eli]

My suggestion would be my workhorse, a Carvin R600 or R1000. They are
out of production but readily available on ebay in the $250 - $350
range. They are not two-channel, but do have a basic 3-band EQ with a
mid-shift knob (semiparametric EQ) plus a footswitchable 9-band
graphic EQ. The mid-shift will do the primary bass, and you could use
the footswitch to change for the other bass. Carvin also made for a
short time a BX600 and BX1200 that are similar, except they have three
bands of shiftable mids.

I run my R600 through a Sonic Micromini 15 cab (single 15, I don't
like tweeter either) with a 450W Eminence Kappalite (neodymium) 3015
(not the LF). I have yet to run into a situation with 200 people that
needed anything more. If you can find one of these adorable little
cabs, they will be in the $200 range with the EV that they usually
came with (try Music Go Round, they ship), and even if you buy a new
Eminence, you will still be in the $800 range. I have seen them empty
for less than $100. Any bigger venue you'd probably need to go direct
anyway, and this amp has a direct out with selectable pre/post EQ so
you can send the sound guy what YOU want. Even has an attenuator on
the DI out. Just did a wedding with the R600 and the 115, in an
outdoor tent with no sides just top, maybe 200 people, and the sound
guy kept telling me to turn down, with my channel on the board turned
pretty much off. It has no trouble keeping up with guitars and vocals
through the usual two-cabs-on-a-stick PA driven by the ubiquitous
Mackie 808S.

All this having been said, I usually do wind up using the onboard
graphic EQ to adapt to the room, so the idea of an EQ pedal for the
other bass, espoused by so many here, is more to my way of thinking
too.

Manual is on line at carvinguitars.com . email me offline with any
questions, happy to help.

On Sep 12, 2:30 pm, TR Kelley <trk...@gmail.com> wrote:

> All these sound radically different from each other, and that makes
> tone shaping with one channel a time-suck.  I love the freedom of a
> trio, lots of room for me to be heard, but still be the BASS.
>
>  I'd like an amp with at least two channels, and plenty of power for
> outdoor parties and 200+ seat clubs. I don't like bright hifi sound,
> or tweeters in bass amps.

> The tone I want is vintage, has plenty of marrow-shaking thump, rich
> chewy mids and smooth highs with not a lot of brightness or clack.
> Warm and overdriven just a bit, but no distortion. I often play
> octaves, chords and harmonics and hate to hear break-up and
> intermodulation mush.

> Stay low -
> trk

[TR Kelley]

WOW!

Thank you all so much for the reccomendations and ideas on how to approach this amp question.  I learned a lot of things That i probably should have learned long ago, but hey that's what this group is for right? Stay tuned, i'll be back with my preliminary decisions after the drummer gets home with his paycheck. :)

trk

[Robert PIttman]

Dear Bottom Line members,

I thought I'd just throw this out there. I've got a circa late 1960s
Bruce bass rig. It has the pre-amp and powered amp in the bottom
of the speaker cabinet, which contains two (2) JBL K-140
15in. speakers.

It works; I used it not long ago for a gig. But, it needs a good home with
someone who will do something with it. It's old technology, and could
probably use a "once-over" from someone who knows vintage amps.

Please let me know if there is any interest, or if you can point me to
someone who might be interested.

Thank you,

-Rob Pittman

[TR Kelley]

Thanks you guys again for all that dedicated typing. and sharing what
you know. :)
Ok, after reading all the answers and links and learning that i really
DON'T need 2 channels, and EQ stompbox is the fix (yay!) I got to
comparing all the suggested cabinets to the legendary backlines in my
mind, things I played through on various large stages that i liked, as
opposed to all the stuff i played that sucked......which is way more.
Ignorance is not bliss, it's bad tone.

The #1 Monster Rig: The house SVT 8x10 (two of them together) rig
that i played through at High Sierra Music Festival. I think i left
half my spleen on the field. Playing my Zon thru that........That was
the best bass ever. Also played the same set-up at a couple of
hempfests.
TRK Festival Observation #1 - If there are reggae bands on the bill,
the bass rig will kill.

The # 2 memorable rig of my past was a used home-built folded-horn (i
think they're being called "W" cabinets here?) that had a rear-facing
JBL 15" in it, not sure which exact driver. It was 48" tall, had
wheels & handles and cost me $50. That was a pants-flapper for sure. I
had a Peavey Mark III on top. Pretty good rig for what I was doing,
(big C&W clubs), but not a lot of definition on stage. Bass - Peavey
T-20 fretless, Ricky 4001 (hahahah!). Would have liked to hear it with
a different head, in retrospect.

ANd then - Big RIg the First The amp my middle-school jazz band
teacher brought to class one glorious day, it was an EARTH cab/head
and had two 15" speakers. I don't remember anything else about it, (it
was big. it was black) like if it had ports or anything ( I was 13)
but when he plugged in the Fender Bass it made my eyes water and my
knees shake and me decide right then and there that i was going to
dedicate my life to the God of Thunder, and stay after school as long
as possible to wait my turn to play it. every day. :)

The overriding pleasant memory of all three of these amps is THUMP.
For TRK anyway, deepness counts, i hear through my feet better than my
ears. So from what I gather, a 2x15 cab with some kind of porting
seems like the way to go in cab design, correct?

Head - Walter's Eden WT400 - I lean towards that, or as you've all
correctly surmised, something Ampeg. My favorite studio amp ever is a
little Ampeg B-15N, so yeah! And the GK 800RB? Had one, never could
get what i wanted out of it, but now in retrospect, that was probably
because of poor cab choice for the sound I was trying to get. So I
would give it another go, I love GKs midrange shapeability and tone,
and have very much enjoyed my GK 112 for small acoustic-type gigs.
Modern stuff: I really dig the sound of the Markbass things I tried at
GC, but the loud color scheme is a turn off. And it's trendy. :)
Sorry, I need to like my gear on all levels.:)
My drummer is also a builder and does some fine cabinetry, so we could
build something, but seems like some of these good old cabs are just
sort of out there waiting....

stay tooned!
trk