Re: Mormon Laban was Biblical Gedalyah

[Nick Youngh]

Shortly after Lehi, who is a lookalike of Jeremiah, fled to the Gulf
Suez of the Red Sea, he did send his sons to their uncle Laban to
collect family records, but Laban refused to give them and was slain
by Nephi with his own sword.
Jeremiah too is related with a murder, that of Gedalya,the governor
of Babylon after the destruction of Jerusalem.
So we will compare the Mormon Laban with Biblical Gedalyah, whether
they were the same person.
First we look what the Mormons say in Wikipedia about Laban.

>In the book of First Nephi, chapters three and four, Laban is
>described as a notable citizen of Jerusalem who commanded great wealth
>and many servants. Among his possessions was a set of brass plates
>containing the genealogy of Lehi, a major character in the early
>portion of the Book of Mormon. Lehi, having left the city with his
>family in response to God's command, enjoined his four sons to return
>to Jerusalem and retrieve them: "For behold, Laban hath the record of
>the Jews and also a genealogy of my forefathers, and they are engraven
>upon plates of brass."[1] Lehi furthermore stated that this injunction
>did not originate with himself, but with the Lord, who had spoken to
> him on this matter in a dream.[2]

> Lehi's two older sons, Laman and Lemuel, were reluctant to obey their
> father's order at first, fearful of Laban's power and ruthless
> reputation. However, Lehi's fourth son, Nephi, vowed that he would
> obey God's command: "For I know that the Lord giveth no commandments
> unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that
> they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them."[3]
> Accordingly, the four sons of Lehi set out for Jerusalem.

> First, Laman went to Laban alone to request the records, but Laban
> cast Laman out of his house and threatened to kill him.[4] Next, Nephi
> and his brothers offered all of their valuables to Laban in return for
> the brass plates. Laban took the money but then refused to keep his
> end of the deal, ordering his men to slay Lehi's sons.[5]

> After fleeing Jerusalem, the elder brothers Laman and Lemuel were
> angry with Lehi and their younger, more faithful, brothers Sam and
> Nephi, so they beat their siblings with rods. Suddenly, an angel
> appeared, commanding the elder duo to desist and all of them to return
> forthwith to the city, where Laban would fall into their hands. Laman
> and Lemuel demurred: "Behold, he is a mighty man, and he can command
> fifty, yea, even he can slay fifty; then why not us?"[6] Though Nephi
> encouraged his brothers by reminding them of God's might, it was only
> with great reluctance that they agreed to press on.[7]

> Undaunted, Nephi slipped back into Jerusalem alone that night, where
> he soon found Laban lying unconscious in a drunken stupor. The Spirit
> of God told Nephi to kill Laban with his own sword and seize the
> records, saying "It is better that one man should perish than that a
> nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief."[8] After complying,
> Nephi disguised himself as Laban and entered his house. There he found
> one of Laban's servants, Zoram, whom he commanded to retrieve the
> brass plates[9] and to follow him out of the city.[10] Zoram obeyed,
> joining Nephi and his family in their journey to the New World.

Than we see what Wikipedia is saying about Gedalya :

> According to the Hebrew Bible, Gedaliah - the son of Ahikam (who saved
> the life of the prophet Jeremiah -- Jer. 26:24) and grandson of
> Shaphan (who was involved in the discovery of the scroll of Teaching
> that scholars identify as the core of the book of Deuteronomy -- II
> Kings 22:8-10) served briefly as governor of Judah. After the
> destruction of Jerusalem, Nebuchadnezzar appointed Gedaliah as
> governor of Judah and left him to govern the country as a tribute to
> him (2 Kings 25:22; Jer. 40:5; 52:16).

> Gedaliah was a wise man, gentle and modest. He zealously began to
> encourage the people to cultivate the fields and vineyards, and thus
> lay the foundation of security. Many who had fled to neighboring lands
> during the war of destruction were attracted by the news of the
> revival of the community. They came to Gedaliah in Mizpah and were
> warmly welcomed by him.


> Among the refugees who had joined Gedaliah in Mizpah was Yishmael, the
> son of Nataniah, a descendant of the royal house of Zedekiah, the last
> king of Judah. Baalis the king of Ammon, who had been following with
> apprehension the regrowth of Judah under its new governor Gedaliah,
> encouraged and sent Yishmael to assassinate him. In the seventh month
> (Tishrei) Yishmael came to Gedaliah in the town of Mitzpa, and was
> received cordially. Gedaliah had been warned of his guest's murderous
> intent, but refused to believe his informants, believing that their
> report was mere slander. Yishmael murdered Gedaliah, together with
> most of the Jews who had joined him and many Babylonians whom
> Nebuchadnezzar had left with Gedaliah (Jer. 41:2, 3). The remaining
> Jews feared the vengeance of Nebuchadnezzar (seeing as his chosen
> ruler, Gedaliah, had been killed by a Jew) and fled to Egypt. This
> happened about three months after the destruction of Jerusalem and the
> First Temple, in 586 BCE.

> To lament the assassination of Gedaliah, which had left Judah devoid
> of any Jews and Jewish rule and made the destruction of the first
> Temple complete, the Jewish Sages established the third day of
> Tishrei, as the Fast of Gedaliah. Although Gedaliah's assassination
> apparently occurred on the first day of Tishrei,[1] the fast is
> observed on the third day so as not to coincide with Rosh Hashanah.

Thirdly we see the Bible verses about GEDALIAH

> KI 25:22  Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon appointed Gedaliah son of Ahikam,
> the son of Shaphan, to be over the people he had left behind in Judah.

> 2KI 25:23  When all the army officers and their men heard that the king of
> Babylon had appointed Gedaliah as governor, they came to Gedaliah at
> Mizpah--Ishmael son of Nethaniah, Johanan son of Kareah, Seraiah son of
> Tanhumeth the Netophathite, Jaazaniah the son of the Maacathite, and
> their men.
> 2KI 25:24  Gedaliah took an oath to reassure them and their men. "Do not be
> afraid of the Babylonian officials," he said. "Settle down in the land and
> serve the king of Babylon, and it will go well with you."
> 2KI 25:25  In the seventh month, however, Ishmael son of Nethaniah, the son
> of Elishama, who was of royal blood, came with ten men and assassinated
> Gedaliah and also the men of Judah and the Babylonians who were with
> him at Mizpah.
> 2KI 25:26  At this, all the people from the least to the greatest,together
> with the army officers, fled to Egypt for fear of the Babylonians.
> JER 39:14  sent and had Jeremiah taken out of the courtyard of theguard.
> They turned him over to Gedaliah son of Ahikam, the son of Shaphan, to take
> him back to his home. So he remained among his own people.

> JER 40:5  However, before Jeremiah turned to go, Nebuzaradan added,"Go
> back to Gedaliah son of Ahikam, the son of Shaphan, whom the king of
> Babylon has appointed over the towns of Judah, and live with him among
> the people, or go anywhere else you please." Then the commander gave him
> provisions and a present and let him go.

> JER 40:6  So Jeremiah went to Gedaliah son of Ahikam at Mizpah and
> stayed with him among the people who were left behind in the land.
> JER 40:13  Johanan son of Kareah and all the army officers still in the
> open country came to Gedaliah at Mizpah
> JER 40:14  and said to him, "Don't you know that Baalis king of the
> Ammonites has sent Ishmael son of Nethaniah to take your life?" But
> Gedaliah son of Ahikam did not believe them.

> JER 40:15  Then Johanan son of Kareah said privately to Gedaliah in Mizpah,
> "Let me go and kill Ishmael son of Nethaniah, and no one will know it.
> Why should he take your life and cause all the Jews who are gathered
> around you to be scattered and the remnant of Judah to perish?"
> JER 40:16  But Gedaliah son of Ahikam said to Johanan son of Kareah,
> "Don't do such a thing! What you are saying about Ishmael is not true."
> JER 41:1  In the seventh month Ishmael son of Nethaniah, the son of
> Elishama, who was of royal blood and had been one of the king's officers,
> came with ten men to Gedaliah son of Ahikam at Mizpah. While they
> were eating together there,

> JER 41:2  Ishmael son of Nethaniah and the ten men who were with him got up
> and struck down Gedaliah son of Ahikam, the son of Shaphan, with the sword,
> killing the one whom the king of Babylon had appointed as governor over the land.

> JER 41:3  Ishmael also killed all the Jews who were with Gedaliah at
> Mizpah, as well as the Babylonian soldiers who were there.

> JER 41:4  The day after Gedaliah's assassination, before anyone knew
> about it,

> JER 41:5  eighty men who had shaved off their beards, torn their clothes
> and cut themselves came from Shechem, Shiloh and Samaria, bringing
> grain offerings and incense with them to the house of the LORD.

> JER 41:6  Ishmael son of Nethaniah went out from Mizpah to meet them,
> weeping as he went. When he met them, he said, "Come to Gedaliah son
> of Ahikam."

> JER 41:7  When they went into the city, Ishmael son of Nethaniah and the
> men who were with him slaughtered them >and threw them into a cistern.
>
> JER 41:8  But ten of them said to Ishmael, "Don't kill us! We have wheat
>and barley, oil and honey, hidden in a field." So he let them alone and did
> not kill them with the others.

> JER 41:9  Now the cistern where he threw all the bodies of the men he had
> killed along with Gedaliah was the one King Asa had made as part of his
> defense against Baasha king of Israel. Ishmael son of Nethaniah filled it
> with the dead.

> JER 41:10  Ishmael made captives of all the rest of the people whowere in
> Mizpah--the king's daughters along with all the others who were left there,
> over whom Nebuzaradan commander of the imperial guard had appointed
> Gedaliah son of Ahikam. Ishmael son of Nethaniah took them captive and
> set out to cross over to the Ammonites

Fourthly we read the BoM verses about Laban-

> 1 Nephi 3
> [3] For behold, Laban hath the record of the Jews and also a genealogy
> of my forefathers, and they are engraven upon plates of brass.
> [4] Wherefore, the Lord hath commanded me that thou and thy brothers
> should go unto the house of Laban, and seek the records, and bring
> them down hither into the wilderness.
> [11] And we cast lots -- who of us should go in unto the house of
> Laban. And it came to pass that the lot fell upon Laman; and Laman
> went in unto the house of Laban, and he talked with him as he sat in
> his house.
> [12] And he desired of Laban the records which were engraven upon the
> plates of brass, which contained the genealogy of my father.
> [13] And behold, it came to pass that Laban was angry, and thrust him
> out from his presence; and he would not that he should have the
> records. Wherefore, he said unto him: Behold thou art a robber, and I
> will slay thee.
> [14] But Laman fled out of his presence, and told the things which
> Laban had done, unto us. And we began to be exceedingly sorrowful, and
> my brethren were about to return unto my father in the wilderness.
> [23] And after we had gathered these things together, we went up again
> unto the house of Laban.
> [24] And it came to pass that we went in unto Laban, and desired him
> that he would give unto us the records which were engraven upon the
> plates of brass, for which we would give unto him our gold, and our
> silver, and all our precious things.
> [25] And it came to pass that when Laban saw our property, and that it
> was exceedingly great, he did lust after it, insomuch that he thrust
> us out, and sent his servants to slay us, that he might obtain our
> property.
> [26] And it came to pass that we did flee before the servants of
> Laban, and we were obliged to leave behind our property, and it fell
> into the hands of Laban.
> [27] And it came to pass that we fled into the wilderness, and the
> servants of Laban did not overtake us, and we hid ourselves in the
> cavity of a rock.
> [29] And it came to pass as they smote us with a rod, behold, an angel
> of the Lord came and stood before them, and he spake unto them,
> saying: Why do ye smite your younger brother with a rod? Know ye not
> that the Lord hath chosen him to be a ruler over you, and this because
> of your iniquities? Behold ye shall go up to Jerusalem again, and the
> Lord will deliver Laban into your hands.
> [31] And after the angel had departed, Laman and Lemuel again began to
> murmur, saying: How is it possible that the Lord will deliver Laban
> into our hands? Behold, he is a mighty man, and he can command fifty,
> yea, even he can slay fifty; then why not us?
> 1 Nephi 4
> [1] And it came to pass that I spake unto my brethren, saying: Let us
> go up again unto Jerusalem, and let us be faithful in keeping the
> commandments of the Lord; for behold he is mightier than all the
> earth, then why not mightier than Laban and his fifty, yea, or even
> than his tens of thousands?
> [3] Now behold ye know that this is true; and ye also know that an
> angel hath spoken unto you; wherefore can ye > doubt? Let us go up; the
> Lord is able to deliver us, even as our fathers, and to destroy Laban,
> even as the Egyptians.
> [5] And it was by night; and I caused that they should hide themselves
> without the walls. And after they had hid themselves, I, Nephi, crept
> into the city and went forth towards the house of Laban.
> [7] Nevertheless I went forth, and as I came near unto the house of
> Laban I beheld a man, and he had fallen to the earth before me, for he
> was drunken with wine.
> [8] And when I came to him I found that it was Laban.
> [10] And it came to pass that I was constrained by the Spirit that I
> should kill Laban; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I
> shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay
> him.
> [17] And again, I knew that the Lord had delivered Laban into my hands
> for this cause -- that I might obtain the records according to his
> commandments.
> [18] Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by
> the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword.
> [19] And after I had smitten off his head with his own sword, I took
> the garments of Laban and put them upon mine own body; yea, even every
> whit; and I did gird on his armor about my loins.
> [20] And after I had done this, I went forth unto the treasury of
> Laban. And as I went forth towards the treasury of Laban, behold, I
> saw the servant of Laban who had the keys of the treasury. And I
> commanded him in the voice of Laban, that he should go with me into
> the treasury.
> [21] And he supposed me to be his master, Laban, for he beheld the
> garments and also the sword girded about my loins.
> [22] And he spake unto me concerning the elders of the Jews, he
> knowing that his master, Laban, had been out by night among them.
> [23] And I spake unto him as if it had been Laban.
> [26] And he, supposing that I spake of the brethren of the church, and
> that I was truly that Laban whom I had slain, wherefore he did follow
> me.
> [28] And it came to pass that when Laman saw me he was exceedingly
> frightened, and also Lemuel and Sam. And they fled from before my
> presence; for they supposed it was Laban, and that he had slain me and
> had sought to take away their lives also.
> [30] And it came to pass that when the servant of Laban beheld my
> brethren he began to tremble, and was about to flee from before me and
> return to the city of Jerusalem.
> [31] And now I, Nephi, being a man large in stature, and also having
> received much strength of the Lord, therefore I did seize upon the
> servant of Laban, and held him, that he should not flee.
> [38] And it came to pass that we took the plates of brass and the
> servant of Laban, and departed into the wilderness, and journeyed unto
> the tent of our father.
> 1 Nephi 5
> [5] But behold, I have obtained a land of promise, in the which things
> I do rejoice; yea, and I know that the Lord will deliver my sons out
> of the hands of Laban, and bring them down again unto us in the
> wilderness.
> [8] And she spake, saying: Now I know of a surety that the Lord hath
> commanded my husband to flee into the wilderness; yea, and I also know
> of a surety that the Lord hath protected my sons, and delivered them
> out of the hands of Laban, and given them power whereby they could
> accomplish the thing which the Lord hath commanded them. And after
> this manner of language did she speak.
> [16] And thus my father, Lehi, did discover the genealogy of his
> fathers. And Laban also was a descendant of Joseph, wherefore he and
> his fathers had kept the records.
> 1 Nephi 7
> [11] Yea, and how is it that ye have forgotten what great things the
> Lord hath done for us, in delivering us out of the hands of Laban, and
> also that we should obtain the record?-

So lets see, if we could find some evidence, according to the
historical method about the existence of Laban.

First the event:
Nephi killed his uncle in his own house when he was drunk by chopping
his head of with his own sword.
Both Laban and Gedalyah were killed by the sword. But Laban was
chopped his head off and Gedalyah was strucked.
Wether Gedalya was killed by his own sword is not clear.
Laban was drunk and Gedalya was promoting replantation of the
wineyards and collecting wine as giftsand tribute.
Both seem to be receiving guests in their own house
Both Ismaël and Nephi came with about 10 man.
Ishmael slaughtered all the visitors and soldiers who were with
Gedalya, what is not mentionned in the BoM

Secondly the time.
Both murders seem to have been around 586bC, but Gedalya died after
the fall of Jerusalem and Mormon apologists on ARM insist that Laban
insisted that Laban was killed before, although I did not understand
why.

Thirdly the place
Laban is said by apologists to have lived in Jerusalem, while Gedalya
kept office at Mizpah, both in Judea, not to far apart

Fourthly the victim.
Wikipedia about Laban
>In the book of First Nephi, chapters three and four, Laban is
>described as a notable citizen of Jerusalem who commanded great wealth
>and many servants. Among his possessions was a set of brass plates
>containing the genealogy of Lehi, a major character in the early

Wikipedia about Gedalyah
> According to the Hebrew Bible, Gedaliah - the son of Ahikam (who saved
> the life of the prophet Jeremiah -- Jer. 26:24) and grandson of
> Shaphan (who was involved in the discovery of the scroll of Teaching
> that scholars identify as the core of the book of Deuteronomy -- II
> Kings 22:8-10) served briefly as governor of Judah. After the
> destruction of Jerusalem, Nebuchadnezzar appointed Gedaliah as
> governor of Judah and left him to govern the country as a tribute to
> him (2 Kings 25:22; Jer. 40:5; 52:16).
> Gedaliah was a wise man, gentle and modest. He zealously began to
> encourage the people to cultivate the fields and vineyards, and thus
> lay the foundation of security. Many who had fled to neighboring lands
> during the war of destruction were attracted by the news of the
> revival of the community. They came to Gedaliah in Mizpah and were
> warmly welcomed by him.

That Laban is described as a notable citizen of Jerusalem who
commanded great wealth and many servants, seems to be in line with the
status of Gedalyah as the Governor of Babylon collecting the tributes.
That Laban was a wise, gentle and modest man, does not seems in the
BoM where he tried to kill visiting Laban.
That Laban was a drunk seems to be confirmed by the way of collecting
taxes in wine by Gedalyah.
That Laban was said to be the Uncle of Nephi, is confirmed in the
Bible where Ismaël and Gedalya were both princes of the houseof
David.

Fifthly the reason:
The reason for the murder of Gedalya seemed to have been jealousy
between princes of the house of David instigated by the rulers of
neighbouring countries.
The reason for the killing of Laban were family records, which were in
his possession, which he possibly inherated from hisgrandfather, like
Gedalya did.(Wikipedia)

>Gedaliah - the son of Ahikam (who saved
> the life of the prophet Jeremiah -- Jer. 26:24) and grandson of
> Shaphan (who was involved in the discovery of the scroll of Teaching
> that scholars identify as the core of the book of Deuteronomy -- II
> Kings 22:8-10)

Sixthly: the fleeïng
The BoM story of the Babylonean treasurer of Laban, called Zoram who
fled and sailed with Nephi is not confirmed in the Biblestory.
Biblical Ishmaël captured the remaining people and princesses at Mizpa
and fled to the Ammonites, what seems to be the BoM story of Nephi and
his brothers returning to Jerusalem to take the daughters of Ishmaël.
Finally all the remnants of Judea and the princesses fled with
Jeremiah to the south of Egypt, like Lehi did.