when to add a super

[yolanda huang]

If my hive is one deep brood box with one medium honey super - 

1) at what point, do I need to add a second super - judging the fullness of the brood box , or judging the fullness of the honey super, or both...what are the metrics?

2) if I add a medium super, should it go on top, or should it go between the brood box and the existing honey super?

Thanks,

Yolanda

[Andre Kruglikov]

The goal is to discourage bees from filling the brood box with honey, as that would reduce the amount of space available for egg laying and may cause the hive to swarm or at least to not grow to it's full potential.

I was taught to wait until a super has 6 fully capped frames (out of 9 - I put 9 frames in a 10-frane medium) before adding a new super. If you add a new super too early, you may end up with multiple supers containing frames few of which are fully capped.  

This time of the year (long days, lots of bees and nectar) you want to undersuper, i.e. add a new super below older super(s), something about bees "discovering" the new super as they make their way to deposit nectar in the older supers (not sure if that's how bees think about it, but it seems to make some sort of sense.)

Later in the year, oversupering may be better as then the new super gets put to use only after frames in the older super(s) are capped.  Ending the season with a bunch of uncapped frames is a bummer: you don't know whether the honey is ripe (and will not start fermenting) and you are more likely to end up with unbalanced extractor (because not all frames are filled to the same degree) that walks around the room and bumps into walls or cabinets.

I am sure there are other opinions on the matter, but you learn what works for you as you try.

Good luck

Andre, Chief Bee Herder, Honey Squeezer and Beeswax Melter

Twin Bee Apiaries

2850 Central Avenue

Alameda CA 94501

650-387-5773

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[Gerald Przybylski]

IMO there's more to it than just adding a box, plus,
it depends on what your goals are.

The average backyard beekeeper may not have honey production as a priority.
The books note that some people leave beekeeping because they can't
figure out what to do with the surplus honey.
In that case, the goal is setting back the swarming triggers of swarming.
That means either splitting to knock back colony strength, or
manipulations that give the queen plenty of space to lay eggs in,
and to give the bees a space signal by putting in frames that need to be
drawn out.

• When 80% of the gaps in the hive are pretty full of bees, the hive
needs more space, WHETHER OR NOT THE HONEY SUPER HAS ANY HONEY IN IT.
Add a box.  How you do it is important. It depends on your strategy,
your style, your goals.

• When the nectar flow is strong (and it is now) you need to go through
the frames in the brood box(es).
Frames of honey need to be moved up into honey supers.
Frames of mostly (all) pollen need to be moved up or out.  If full of
capped honey, harvest. If no honey, pull and renew. If with brood and or
honey, move into the super until you can harvest it.
Replace those frames with drawn brood-size comb.
Depending on the strength of the colony, maybe an undrawn frame next to
or in the brood ball.
(Easiest with foundationless frames because there's minimum risk of
catastrophe, and bees love to build comb in open space, compared with
either wax or plastic. )
These adjustments usually force the addition of another box to the colony.

• Harvest capped honey frames, or move them to the top of the hive to
the slots nearest the box walls.  On the hive is the safest place to
store honey.
DON'T just put pulled honey frames into a bin.  Wax moth love a closed
space like that. So do small hive beetle.  If you need to store them in
a bin, freeze in the freezer for two days first.

I've noticed this year that colonies don't want to extend the brood ball
into deep frames below a medium box full of brood frames.  They use
medium frames close to the brood ball.
Haven't they been reading the books?

When you have 7 or 8 brood frames in the bottom box, and want to get the
colony to expand into the adjacent box,
move three frames to the next box, and flank those frames with drawn
frames of brood comb.
The thing is, they may start filling those frames with nectar and honey
too.  Gotta move them up into the honey supers.

ps
A box full of honey frames is a queen excluder.  Less resistance to the
honey work-force than a metal grate.

that's my 2¢

[yolanda huang]

Is it really true"bees love to build comb in open space, compared with 
either wax or plastic. "  Then why do we use frames with plastic or wax foundation?  

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[Robert L Mathews]

On Apr 4, 2026, at 9:38 PM, yolanda huang <yogre...@gmail.com> wrote:

Is it really true"bees love to build comb in open space, compared with 
either wax or plastic. "  Then why do we use frames with plastic or wax foundation?  

My two cents... I use black plastic foundation for three reasons:

* I can easily see eggs against the black background. Seeing well-laid eggs (a single egg, towards the middle of the empty cell) tells me the hive has a laying queen without having to look for her. When I first started beekeeping I spent lots of time unnecessarily looking for the queen herself, but now I can often stop an inspection as soon as I see the eggs. Other people might have better eyes than me, but I generally can't see eggs against the yellow background of wax or yellow plastic foundation.

* I use a centrifuge to extract honey, and the plastic foundation prevents the comb breaking apart even if I'm not particularly careful with it. The leftover comb at the end of the process is still mostly intact and an excellent start for the next bees, like this:

* It encourages bees to build new comb in a more regular, organized manner (less wavy). This makes it easier to remove individual frames for honey harvesting, or to donate some eggs and larvae to another colony, without worrying that the frames left behind will not fit together well.

The main criticism is that bees don't like to build new comb on plastic. That's true: you need to put wax on it so they think they're building on wax. In my experience, the wax that comes with even "wax coated frames" from commercial sources is not enough, but coating them with lots of wax like this works perfectly:

When I do that, they immediately start drawing it out like this with no trouble:

Another criticism, of course, is that plastic in beehives isn't natural. I agree with that, but decided the benefits were worth it for me. For what it's worth, it lasts pretty much forever: when the old wax on my plastic frames gets too dark, I carefully remove it and re-wax the plastic. I haven't bought new foundation in many years.

-- 

Robert L Mathews

[Jim Veitch]

Agree with Rob, foundation makes management easier.  Initially I used foundation then I had a many years long experiment going foundationless based on Jerry flourishing a beautiful foundationless all worker comb at a dinner we had maybe 10 years ago.

Now I've mostly gone back to using foundation, especially for supers where I expect only honey use.  It depends on how busy you are and whether you want to spend the extra time managing foundationless frames.

My experience with foundationless:

(1) You've got to check regularly to push the new comb into alignment.  Even when placed between existing comb they are likely to make wavy or crazy comb that if left makes that frame unusable elsewhere

(2) As Rob says, you have to be very, very careful spinning out honey.  I usually add reinforcing rods but still sometimes blow out new comb that was foundationless.  I also need to add a starter strip.  The reinforcement and starter strip are extra steps in making frames, so great if you have the time and inclination, not so great if you don't.

(3) If the hive is already strong, the bees have a tendency to draw drone comb as part or sometimes all of the frame even if you place the comb in the middle of the brood nest.  This makes a management problem for deciding how to use that frame in the future.  Putting it back in the brood nest means you'll get a lot more drones.  I would cut out the patches of drone comb regularly and they often will just redraw them as drone comb.  The only real exception is new swarms, so if you have access to swarms using them to draw foundationless worker comb worked pretty well for me.

My experience with foundation:

(1) It is true bees sometimes don't like plastic foundation and will do things like build a new comb next to the foundation instead of on the foundation. If they do that, remove it as soon as you see them doing it.  As Rob says, adding lots of wax helps, though sometimes one doesn't have the wax.

(2) If  you use wax foundation then the bees seem happy to use it but you have to reinforce or use wax foundation with wire in it already to prevent blowouts if you use a honey spinner.

(3) You do have to pay attention to wax foundation as it sometimes warps and you still need to push the new comb back into alignment with the frame.

(4) Management of the combs is really easy as they are either all drone comb or all worker comb.  I do keep 20% drone comb in the brood box (but not in the brood nest) as I believe it lessens the amount of drone comb. The bees otherwise will build around the edges of frames and between boxes.  I also still sometimes do drone comb Varroa management in the spring where having drones exclusively in a couple of frames allows a much easier drone pupae kill.

(5) I've found cleaning old plastic foundation a hassle. I still don't have a reliable method though I keep trying new ones. Recycling old comb from foundationless is a snap, as I just cut it out and put it in the solar wax melter.

(6) All plastic frames occasionally warp.  Then I have to throw the frame away entirely.  I've never seen that happen with a wooden frame.

Jim

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[Gerald Przybylski]

There are trade-offs. 
Some lore exists that says drawn comb need never be replaced.  Certainly true for nice white honey comb
I don't buy that for brood comb. 
When bees pupate in cells, they shed exoskelatons and silk that coat the walls which makes the cells progressively smaller.
The wax is pretty inert.  Those proteins are food. 
Bees also fill brood comb with pollen.  Once they do that, it's there forever, or until the beekeeper renews it, or it's eaten by wax moth or sap beetles.

To renew plastic foundation, pop it out, and bag a bunch of them together to give the wax moth a free meal.  They'll do the cleaning for you over a couple of weeks or months.
They'll even scrape the gunk out of the bottom of the waffle pattern.  Generally wax moth do a better job than we can scraping and digging. 
Recoat with wax and put back into the frames. (don't bag the wood frames. The wax moth will eat those too)  - pro tip from Judy Casale

I use foundationless frames with a rib down the middle of the top bar. 2 x 2mm reinforcing wires from top to bottom. 3 equal size windows.
When I need to renew old foundationless frames I use a stubby knife to slice around the block of comb; it goes into the wax melter.  Scrape a bit. Remove the propolis. I'm done.
It takes about as much time to renew a frame as it did to write this paragraph.  
- no rewiring wax. 
- no renailing or breaking the "wedge." 
- no plastic into the land fill 'cos I don't wanna fiddle with it, and can't get all the gunk off. 
- no recoating the plastic with wax.  
- and most of all,  with foundationless brood frames, colonies don't draw bridge comb between boxes and fill it with drone pupa.  
(Bees build the sizes they want in the open space, so no need to draw bridge comb between boxes)
Hives MUST be vertical so Leveling is required side-to-side.  Pitched forward is OK. 

Yup.  I do have to straighten comb when the bees start to bend it away from the center line. 
Sometimes I have to cut out bits of new comb.  
Unless the plastic foundations are coated with extra wax, bees sometimes start building ribs of comb perpendicular to the plastic.  The beekeeper has to scrape those off.   i.e. grooming is required even with plastic foundation.

As far as comb breaking in an extractor, a couple of things:
- when the bees attach comb on all four sides it's pretty robust, even with honey in it. 
- The comb is more robust with the stiffening wires.  
I use "tangential" orientation when spinning out foundationless frames. The basket keeps the wax from breaking most of the time. 
Rubberband back in place and the bees will mend it. 
Foundationless comb that the bees have raised a few generations of brood in is very robust.  They won't blow out in an extractor. 

The plusses:
I don't have to buy any foundation or spend the time installing it. 
I don't have to throw that plastic into the landfill. 
I spend far less time renewing frames. 
I spend far less time dealing with bridge comb full of pupa.  almost none.  The exception is when the hive is plugged out and they want to store more honey. 

The almost pure white wax the bees produce is very fragile.
The bees rework that wax to make it stronger, and after they do it's yellow.  Huber mentions that in his 1815 book. 

I agree with Jim.  If you can keep your plastic-foundation honey super frames free of pupa,  they're robust, and good for a lifetime.
After the bees raise some brood in them, the wax moth  tunnel through, and you have to renew them.  

While this nectar flow is strong, it's a good time to get your foundation drawn. 

Inserting foundationless frames into the brood ball is part of my spring slow-down-the-bees plan for swarm suppression.  
One or two every couple of weeks can gets me past the really strong swarm months without discovering swarm cells in the hive. 

One year I was gifted some frames with old dark comb on plastic, which I used in various colonies where I needed them.
All those colonies did poorly that year.  
In fall it clicked that perhaps those old hand-me-down frames harbored pathogens.  
I popped out all those plastic foundations and converted them to foundationless.  
The next year colonies fared much better.   
It was the life-lesson about the risk of hand-me-down equipment. 

As I said above. Trade-offs. 
I still use foundationless frames, and plastic if I can get the bees to draw them, and keep them out of the brood ball. 

jerry

On 4/5/26 11:06 AM, Jim Veitch wrote:

Agree with Rob, foundation makes management easier.  Initially I used foundation then I had a many years long experiment going foundationless based on Jerry flourishing a beautiful foundationless all worker comb at a dinner we had maybe 10 years ago.

Now I've mostly gone back to using foundation, especially for supers where I expect only honey use.  It depends on how busy you are and whether you want to spend the extra time managing foundationless frames.

My experience with foundationless:

(1) You've got to check regularly to push the new comb into alignment.  Even when placed between existing comb they are likely to make wavy or crazy comb that if left makes that frame unusable elsewhere

(2) As Rob says, you have to be very, very careful spinning out honey.  I usually add reinforcing rods but still sometimes blow out new comb that was foundationless.  I also need to add a starter strip.  The reinforcement and starter strip are extra steps in making frames, so great if you have the time and inclination, not so great if you don't.

(3) If the hive is already strong, the bees have a tendency to draw drone comb as part or sometimes all of the frame even if you place the comb in the middle of the brood nest.  This makes a management problem for deciding how to use that frame in the future.  Putting it back in the brood nest means you'll get a lot more drones.  I would cut out the patches of drone comb regularly and they often will just redraw them as drone comb.  The only real exception is new swarms, so if you have access to swarms using them to draw foundationless worker comb worked pretty well for me.

Cut out the section of drone comb from frame "A"  and a similar size piece of brood comb from frame "B".
Rubber the chunk from "B" into "A" and let the bees repair the seams. 

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[Bay Area Beeks]

I do find that spring bees prefer fresh comb, however I use plastic foundation because 1) It stands up to accidental drops, which happens to even the most experienced of us but happens more often with newbies and children. 2) Stand up to extractions with machines 3) More importantly bees make straight line combs with foundation start.  I'm working with my top bar and having a very difficult time getting bees to make straight combs - they keep making curved comb which I tear down.  Anyone have tips on how to get bees to make straight comb on top bar - I'm all ears.  

Bee Healthy,

Mimi

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