foundationless frames & comb guides

[yolanda huang]

Hi Everyone,

Just learning more - about letting bees make their own foundation with a comb guide and foundationless frames.

Does anyone use this?  If so, what are the plusses and minuses of using this method?

Thanks,

Yolanda

[Jerry Przybylski]

I’ve been mostly using foundationless frames in brood boxes for over 10 years. 

I’m a pretty strong believer dark wax in brood frames should be cycled out every three to five years. It’s easy to simply cut out the old wax when it’s time has come. 

Our hives make nearly no bridge comb between boxes. 

It offends me too discard plastic foundations into the landfill. 

When bees are drawing out the comb, sometimes the beekeeper has to make adjustments. 

Hives Must be kept vertical so the plane of the comb stays in the frame. 

Foundationless frames are an important part of spring swarm control/suppression. 

Bees most prefer to draw comb in empty space. 

-- Siri apologizes 4 autocomplete errors...

On May 23, 2026, at 9:00 AM, yolanda huang <yogre...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Claire Lussier]

Yes, on foundation less and yes on being offended by plastic waste. Well said. 

The only good use of wax foundation I’ve seen is to help bees regress to a naturally smaller comb size, which decreases disease and mite populations, but once they get the hang of it, you take that foundation out. 

	Claire Lussier M. (510) 590-1789

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[yolanda huang]

Great to know.  I think I will try 4 frames in each box to see how it goes.

On Sat, May 23, 2026 at 9:26 AM Jerry Przybylski <gtp0...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[yolanda huang]

Thanks for the tip!

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[Gerald Przybylski]

Early in spring I put foundationless frames into the brood ball to slow down the swarm urge and to get the frames drawn.
One or two at a time depending on the strength of the colony.  
More later as the spring evolves. 
If they don't swarm, I have to try to get those old queens superseded, or force emergency queens so 
we have young queens going into winter. 

In May I use drawn frames when I have them because the bees are not bringing in as much nectar. 

If I have a swarm move into a trap,  I find they are happy to draw a number of foundationless frames. 
Drawing wax is what swarms are really good at. 

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[Jim Veitch]

My experience with foundationless is more nuanced.  Unless it's a new swarm the bees will often only draw drone comb or a mix of drone comb and worker comb.  Either way it gets to be a headache to manage. as comb is no longer interchangeable.  You especially don't want to be putting frames with a lot of drone comb in the middle of the brood nest.

So if you get swarms it's easier.  In my case I don't swarm chase and I do a pretty good job of stopping my bees swarming so resorting to wax or plastic foundation helps make comb I can use in the brood nest.  I mostly reuse plastic foundation I already have but sometimes use wax foundation.  There is some contamination in that wax. How serious a problem that is I don't know.

Jim

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[Gerald Przybylski]

Yes. When the bees draw comb in foundationless frames they draw a mix of various cell sizes.  
Small cell on one end, or in the middle.   Larger cells for the balance. 

A smaller swarm earlier in the season will draw more small cell comb because they won't be producing drones for a while.
They will use the big cells for honey. 
Closer to summer more big cell. 
A foundationless frame in the middle of the brood ball have a better chance for getting small cell comb. 

You can do some trickery with a couple of frames.   
Cut out the small cell parts, and rubber band them in place of large cell parts of other frames. 
The bee will glue the piece together. 

When putting drawn foundationless frames into brood boxes you have to pick and choose.    Small cell where you want worker brood. 
Large cell on the outside for honey or drone.  Or large cell in honey supers. 

If the frame is more than 50% small cell I generally don't bother swapping pieces between frames. 

If all the other brood frame are plastic foundation small cell, then of course the foundationless frame will be all drone-size cells. 

Once you have a decent inventory, picking the right frame is easier. 

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[yolanda huang]

If im thinking about "trying" foundationless frames, do I want to have 2-3"inches of wax at the top to get the bees started?  Or just a totally naked frame?

Is it ok to put in one or 2 frames when I need to put in new frames?

Yolanda

On Sat, May 23, 2026 at 9:26 AM Jerry Przybylski <gtp0...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Elinor N. LEVINE]

You can also use hobby store tongue depressors glued into the slots top and bottom as comb guides.

When you add a foundationless frame you will want put it between two already drawn frames so they draw the new comb straight.

Elinor

On May 28, 2026, at 10:05 PM, yolanda huang <yogre...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[yolanda huang]

For those who allow bees to build their own foundation - and therefore smaller cells - do you find that you have less of an issue with varroa mites.  That would be my primarily objective in doing so --healthier bees.

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[Jim Veitch]

The research studies around small cell and Varroa are inconclusive.  Having read some of the studies I personally believe small cell won't control Varroa at all.

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[Gerald Przybylski]

hmmm
I'm very skeptical of "small-cell" arguments.
Bees in our climate raise drone most months, and Varroa prefer to reproduce in drone cells, so smaller worker cells are kinda irrelevant. 
Drones take almost an extra week to develop, during which time a mite lays additional eggs yielding more viable offspring. 
The Lusbys mentioned the shorter gestation of workers in small cells (first??) as a mite suppression strategy.

Since Varroa moved into the country in 1987, when virtually all colonies were vulnerable, survivor genes have developed due to natural selection pressure
on wild/feral stocks. 
Since then researchers have observed VSH (Varroa specific hygiene) (a product line of U Minn) 
uncapping/recapping, 
grooming, (ankel-biters) (a product of Purdue)
and even a subtle change in blocking signaling that tells Varroa when to infest a cell. 
I read a report on european research that discovered a sample of honey bees that had stopped making a protein that Varroa depend upon to reproduce and no longer make themselves. 

Randy said he's agnostic about how his GW bees suppress Varroa.  He's happy with whatever trait or combination of traits they exploit to keep Varroa at bay. 
He's also expressed that the drone population diversity is an important factor for Varroa suppression.  

Foundationless frames generally have a combination of worker-size, drone-size and sometimes even bigger cells when finished. 
I'll try to remember to take my ruler to the apiary to measure "natural" cell size in some drawn frames. 

jerry

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[Bees & Beeks]

Killer bees are ~15-20% smaller than European Honeybees.  Their Queen hatches in 15 days vs 16 days that gives them dominance advantages.  

Mimi 

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On Jun 3, 2026, at 9:33 AM, Jim Veitch <jvei...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Gerald Przybylski]

Aha.  I was skeptical. 
I found 

... Africanized honey bees are slightly (approximately 10%) smaller than European honey bees.  
However, this size difference is very subtle, and it is nearly impossible to differentiate between the two without specific measurements and/or laboratory testing...

so the issue is a bit murky. 
Factor in that Africanized bees in the US are not pure A. scutalata, but a hybrid. 

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[real...@aol.com]

I am like most bay area concerned about the “killer bees” they have not made it that far north .

I am very concerned about the Dark comb as bee lay new foundation they use them , which can potentially be a shelte for all kinds of disease. After harvest and to clean them i keep them under the sun , and slowly remove all the dark comd and start over by rewaxing it . 

Yet i am very much boing to convert to wax , but i do have a good stock of plastic nand like go

Keep the trash co business as small as possible.

I previously posted a short video on how i clean them .

Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS

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