New camber adjustment bolts and new alignment specs

[Dennis E. Dowhy]

This info is relevant to all of us if you dont want to be burning through your tires.  I know Anthony and Charlie have blown through tires pretty fast.  I'm guessing there's more on this mailing list too that have needed to get new tires.

While I have yet to have any tire issues (32.6k miles now and still 6/32"-7/32" treads), I do monitor this issue closely as it would be very costly maintenance otherwise if I need to replace tires often given the amount of mileage I do.

So I have been monitoring several threads on the forums and there have been some recent developments over the last few weeks.

If you haven't been keeping track of this issue, in short many Model S's are having alignment issues which cause tires to wear insanely fast.  The biggest being major toe-out on the rear wheels, causing inside shoulder wear.  This is not specific to 21s either as Charlie and others on the forums have had the issue with 19s (it still happens with the 19s, but just takes longer to show so they wear slower).  Initial thoughts were due to the OEM negative camber settings.  The OEM camber bolts are not adjustable.  Negative camber by itself isnt a wear pattern though, but when combined with other alignment issues negative camber will exacerbate the wear even more.  Basically the major problem is toe out on the rear tires.   Anyone having a large amount of toe out will probably need to replace tires every 5k miles.

There are 2 recent developments over the past few weeks.  

The first being that Tesla has released new camber adjustment bolts, so that camber can now be adjusted on the rear wheels to help mitigate the wear.

The second, was that Tesla found that the machine vendor for Hunter alignment machines had programmed in the alignment specs incorrectly for the Model S.  Basically any service center using a Hunter machine had been misaligning the cars.  Its unclear right now if that was just 1 service center or all service centers.  Tesla worked with them to fix the programming.  I'm guessing if one was programmed wrong, then they were all programmed wrong.  

There is also some debate on whether or not alignment is included with service or not. Some say yes, others say no.  One service center would say its included.  Others would say its not but they are "comping" the alignments for the time being (probably due to this issue).  On the forums some people have had their tires replaced for free under warranty, and others were told no and had to pay for it themselves.  My position is that its a factory warranty problem, especially if the alignment machines were all programmed wrong.  If I had these issues and burned through a set of tires real fast, I would have pressed free replacement under warranty.  To go through a set of tires in 5k is not normal.  Previously I've said "it is normal", but to rephrase, "thats normal for Tesla and their stupid alignment specs".  Now I wonder if they are going to recall for alignment or release a TSB for that bolt...

If you want to read more about this issue, follow these threads, especially the last 3 weeks of posts:

This thread has a lot of good info.

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/22813-Checked-Alignment-The-Good-The-Bad-The-Ugly

 

specifically, these posts:

New bolts to adjust camber:

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/22813-Checked-Alignment-The-Good-The-Bad-The-Ugly?p=494599&viewfull=1#post494599

Hunter wrong specs:

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/22813-Checked-Alignment-The-Good-The-Bad-The-Ugly?p=495166&viewfull=1#post495166

  

this is an older thread with lots of info about the negative camber (but not up to date with the new "camber adjustment bolt":  http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/13825-Negative-Camber-in-the-Rear-and-Expensive-Tires 

 

 

[Roger Kang]

Thanks for all this info, Dennis. 

A few months ago, I did hear from the Queens service center that they thought their alignment machine might be out of spec. 

I had my car alignment done three times there and kept having issues with the car pulling to the right. Finally they realized that the lower control arm had to be replaced. 

But I do notice now that I hear the thud-thud-thud sound from unevenly worn tires. The alignment machine probably did this.

They should at a minimum fix the camber and offer free alignment. And Charlie you should ask for new tires to be comped. 

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[Charlie Changchien]

Dennis thanks for the links, it's good to know that there are mistakes made. Because a few months back, some owners were complaining to Tesla regarding to premature tire wear, but were all given the answer that "it's performance tires, MS is a powerful car, or you drive too aggressively"

Interestingly though Dennis, Andrea, Roger and my car were all delivered about the same time (Feb, March, April), so our VIN is very close. Their tires are wearing fine, but mine rear tires worn out in 20k miles. So if there was alignment issues in the factory, both our cars should of been affected.. However I was carrying 7 people in the car for the good part of last 2.5 months.

I am taking my car in for an alignment at Springfield on Dec 12th, if they find my alignment to be off, should I ask them to comp my new 2 tires in the back?? :)

[Roger Kang]

Charlie,

I think you should. 

Something small like alignment can have expensive consequences over time. Take my example: I was being super careful and wanted to make sure the alignment wasn't off. Well, they messed it up and just a few thousand miles and the tires have worn unevenly. I never complained to them about this as it's just an annoyance. But for you it's rather expensive. I don't think carrying a full load is why your tires wore that fast. That is way too fast in my opinion.   

[Dennis E. Dowhy]

Another confirmed report of alignment machines being off: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/24929-Post-Alignment-Issues?p=519965&viewfull=1#post519965

[ad...@electronics4all.co.uk]

Dennis, I have a 2013 Model S P85+. I have brought the car into 2 times for alignment to my local Tesla SC in Houston. First time they performed the alignment, they changed the bolts and then did the alignment ( I am not sure if the same bolts that you are talking about, could you be kind enough to give me the part #'s of those camber adjustment bolts, i want to make sure that those are the same bolts they replaced on my MS ). 

Long story short, my car still pulls to the right its a slight but significant drift. The SC has told me on the 2nd time that my alignment is 100% perfect on the screen and if they touch anything, it will off set. 

Last but not least, they said they are not aware of any updates that are required by the hunter alignment machine. They are saying that we key in the specs into the machine and not the other way around. Can you please help me in the right direction ?. I am suspecting that my service center used old Specs provided by the Hunter machine to align the car. Please let me know what can help me in order to help build me a strong case for my local SC to do this alignment right for once. Are there any service bulletin available ? Any other SC person knows this issue in detail and I can call him/her and speak to ? Please let me know. Thank you. 

[Dennis E. Dowhy]

this is what was on my service report (below pic).  regarding the hunter programming error best I can tell you is point to that link in previous post.  if your car still pulls to the right and the alignment is actually good, this may just be simple road crowning depending on the roads you are driving on. http://autoresource.internetautoguide.com/car-pull-right-driving-1244.html

​

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[Roger Kang]

My car kept pulling to the left after two alignments. They finally figured out that the lower control arm was loose and needed to be replaced. 

[JonathanL]

+1 for me, except my car was pulling to the right.  They added the 2 camber adjustment bolts, did 2 alignments, and it was still pulling right.  Then they adjusted the control arm, did a 3rd and final alignment, and the car stopped pulling to the right.  7k miles later, no uneven wear and car still drives straight.

[Sal E]

Jonathan, can you please tell me the name of the service center you took your car to and the contact person over there please ?

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[JonathanL]

Sal,

I take mine to the Springfield, NJ SC. Mike is the service manager and Andrew is the tech who usually works on my cars.

[John Sergeant]

I know there have been discussions on here in the past about tire wear and alignment/camber settings.  My S just went in for a service at 30,000 and they tell me that the rear tires should be replaced.   How many miles are people getting on 19" wheels before replacement?

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[Dennis E. Dowhy]

varies.  mine lasted 48k and still have 4/32" tread left on a P85.  charlie's lasted something like 16 or 18k before he needed his on an S60. go figure, this varies widely.

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[Ira Cohen]

John - When I went in about a month ago with a little over 15K I was told I had about 5K tread left.  Won't get these tires again

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[John Sergeant]

Thanks Dennis.

[Roger Kang]

My Goodyears, despite incorrect alignment by Tesla, lasted 35K miles. But most of my miles were driven with 1 or zero passengers. 

Charlie, in contrast, has a fully loaded car fairly often. 

I really like my new Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 tires (thanks Dennis) but I am seeing around a 10% increase in my Wh/mi. 

Handling is great though!!!

[Peter Badenhop]

I have 34k and have been told I probably have only 4-5k left before I need replacements.

[Dennis E. Dowhy]

tires do take a bit of time to get worn in.  new tires will have higher Wh/mi initially. as the treads wear the efficiency actually gets better.  so that 10% increase may go down.  it's hard for me to tell because I don't drive at consistent speeds.  they are definitely quieter though and feel much better and don't slip at all.

[Prf...@aol.com]

I've got 22K on my original Goodyear's and probably need to have them replaced my 19's within the next 4K miles. Definitely before I take the my S85 to Florida in January!!!  Because of the warranty, mounting and sensor issues, I'm leaning towards the Michelin Primacy. Should be an improvement over the present Goodyear's.

Peter F

[Charlie Changchien]

John,

Dennis and Roger were right, my rear tires got worn out by around 19k, despite rotating every 6000 miles. I think the combination of carrying 7 passengers often (70% local, 30% highway) , multiple test drives,  and alignment issue did the tires in early.

I got the Good years again for the rear, drove 8000 miles on it with only 4 people (2 adults, 2 little kids), the tread is still at 10/32 (original depth).

[Bernie Spier, M.D.]

I'm going overseas for 10 days.  Have to leave car unplugged during that time.  Anyone have experience with this?  Not that worried in these temps, expect to loose 70 miles, but curious.  Thnx.

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[Dennis E. Dowhy]

you'll be fine.  the car was designed to keep the battery safe even being unplugged for months  (not that I would try that).  10 days is nothing.

[Tom Bischoff]

Speaking of tires, at 33000 miles I put 2 new Goodyears on today.(next time I will get the Michelin Pilot Sport) The other 2 tires have some life left in them.

 

So I sent Mike Shephard at the service center an e-mail and asked if they could do an alignment. He must be on vacation because I got an out of office reply. So I sent the request to the general SC mailbox, and got a reply from George Castro stating that the next available appointment is October 16.

 

Most of the work the service center is doing has to be repairs under warranty. So Tesla must be losing a fortune making these repairs. Are our cars that poorly built that there is a month of backlog to fix them? Kind of scary. I don't care so much about the alignment, because I am sure that if I put up a stink that Mike would squeeze me in. I am more concerned that as our cars age they will spend more time in the shop than on the road.

 

At least when the Paramus SC is open, it will alleviate the wait for service.

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[Andrea Giangone]

I personally think that the amount of cars in NJ are just too many for one service center, no matter how good they are.
On top of that let's not forget the new deliveries.

Andrea
Sent from my touchpad running android.

[Roger Kang]

Keep in mind that they recently closed the Queens service center (because it was too small and the location was horrible) so they are probably busy from servicing some NY customers too. It will be kept as a battery pack service center. 

They are looking for a location in Brooklyn...

[Charlie Changchien]

Tom,

Springfield is just a busy place as no one likes to drive into Queens for service.  I actually called Devon PA service and they have much more openings compare to Springfield.

Also, many people are still bringing cars in for TSB related issues, plus annual inspection and more cars in the tri state area, probably all contributes to the back log.

As to reliability of our cars, we shall see :)

On Sep 11, 2014 10:37 PM, "Tom Bischoff" <tombi...@optonline.net> wrote:

[Herbert Van Den Houten]

"At least when the Paramus SC is open, it will alleviate the wait for service."

  I was going to take a look at the place tonight but totally forgot. When I came South on Rte. 17 Wednesday I noticed the building had lights on waned to see the latest.

         

                           Rev. Dr. Herbert VDH

[John Sergeant]

Hey guys and gals:

I'm a long time member of The Motley Fool, and am very active on their various Tesla investment boards.

http://www.fool.com/

I have also been very active in their philanthropic efforts.  Currently they are running a fundraiser to support the Pencils of Promise Back to School fundraising efforts - a couple of links here to set the scene:

https://fundraise.pencilsofpromise.org/fundraise?fcid=334105

http://pencilsofpromise.org/

We are trying to set up a silent auction to raise more funds.  I was planning to offer rides in my Model S (plus buying lunch for the winning bidder, but I'm well know on The Motley Fool) .

I was wondering if any of you would be willing to donate rides in your Model S's or even allow people to drive them.  If so, what would be the minimum bid that you'd be willing to accept, what would be the geographical limitations (e.g would they have to come to you, would you go to them?)

It seems to me like a potential win-win.  We get to expose some more people to the Tesla Model S and help raise some funds for a worthy cause.

If you are not interested in taking part in the silent auction, please take a look at the Pencils of Promise links above and consider making a donation of $250 to fund a scholarship.

Thanks,

John

On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 10:52 PM, Herbert Van Den Houten <drhv...@me.com> wrote:

"At least when the Paramus SC is open, it will alleviate the wait for service."

  I was going to take a look at the place tonight but totally forgot. When I came South on Rte. 17 Wednesday I noticed the building had lights on waned to see the latest.

         

                           Rev. Dr. Herbert VDH

On Sep 11, 2014, at 10:37 PM, Tom Bischoff <tombi...@optonline.net> wrote:

At least when the Paramus SC is open, it will alleviate the wait for service.

[Howard Horne]

I had been using the Devon (and it's predecessor in Norristown) service center (because it is about equidistant and was open before Springfield) and recently switched to Springfield.  While the folks in Devon are very nice, sometimes their answers are just a little "off". 

I recently switched to Springfield and I couldn't be happier. Mike and his staff are spot on All of the time (not that I have had that many issues) and they really go out of their way to take care of things. If Norristown goes above and beyond (and Queens in my one experience, was not so great), then Springfield is in a different cosmos.  

I am thinking about letting a couple of people who have/are getting Teslas who live near my PA house in on the secret, but I fear that I will overwhelm Springfield even more.

Howard K. Horne, MD
Sent from my iPad

[d...@livingonthenet.com]

Hi.  I’ve had terrible problems.

 

Chewed through tires.  Tire dealer (NTB) couldn’t do alignment.

 

Turned out a cross bar was bent.  Tesla said it wasn’t warranty item.

And now, the tire pressure system warning light won’t go out.   Having to take the care back in to have them look at that.

Care has spent more time off the road than on this year.

 

From: tesla-own...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tesla-own...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Queenie Wong
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2016 11:08 PM
To: Tesla Owners of NJ <tesla-own...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [Tesla-owners-of-nj] Re: New camber adjustment bolts and new alignment specs

 

Hi Dennis,

 

can i get your email address as I would like to have more information about the tesla model s tyres issue....

On Monday, December 9, 2013 at 12:31:10 AM UTC+8, Dennis Dowhy wrote:

This info is relevant to all of us if you dont want to be burning through your tires.  I know Anthony and Charlie have blown through tires pretty fast.  I'm guessing there's more on this mailing list too that have needed to get new tires.

 

While I have yet to have any tire issues (32.6k miles now and still 6/32"-7/32" treads), I do monitor this issue closely as it would be very costly maintenance otherwise if I need to replace tires often given the amount of mileage I do.

 

So I have been monitoring several threads on the forums and there have been some recent developments over the last few weeks.

 

If you haven't been keeping track of this issue, in short many Model S's are having alignment issues which cause tires to wear insanely fast.  The biggest being major toe-out on the rear wheels, causing inside shoulder wear.  This is not specific to 21s either as Charlie and others on the forums have had the issue with 19s (it still happens with the 19s, but just takes longer to show so they wear slower).  Initial thoughts were due to the OEM negative camber settings.  The OEM camber bolts are not adjustable.  Negative camber by itself isnt a wear pattern though, but when combined with other alignment issues negative camber will exacerbate the wear even more.  Basically the major problem is toe out on the rear tires.   Anyone having a large amount of toe out will probably need to replace tires every 5k miles.

 

There are 2 recent developments over the past few weeks.  

 

The first being that Tesla has released new camber adjustment bolts, so that camber can now be adjusted on the rear wheels to help mitigate the wear.

 

The second, was that Tesla found that the machine vendor for Hunter alignment machines had programmed in the alignment specs incorrectly for the Model S.  Basically any service center using a Hunter machine had been misaligning the cars.  Its unclear right now if that was just 1 service center or all service centers.  Tesla worked with them to fix the programming.  I'm guessing if one was programmed wrong, then they were all programmed wrong.  

 

There is also some debate on whether or not alignment is included with service or not. Some say yes, others say no.  One service center would say its included.  Others would say its not but they are "comping" the alignments for the time being (probably due to this issue).  On the forums some people have had their tires replaced for free under warranty, and others were told no and had to pay for it themselves.  My position is that its a factory warranty problem, especially if the alignment machines were all programmed wrong.  If I had these issues and burned through a set of tires real fast, I would have pressed free replacement under warranty.  To go through a set of tires in 5k is not normal.  Previously I've said "it is normal", but to rephrase, "thats normal for Tesla and their stupid alignment specs".  Now I wonder if they are going to recall for alignment or release a TSB for that bolt...

 

If you want to read more about this issue, follow these threads, especially the last 3 weeks of posts:

 

This thread has a lot of good info.

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/22813-Checked-Alignment-The-Good-The-Bad-The-Ugly

 

specifically, these posts:

New bolts to adjust camber:

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/22813-Checked-Alignment-The-Good-The-Bad-The-Ugly?p=494599&viewfull=1#post494599

 

 

Hunter wrong specs:

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/22813-Checked-Alignment-The-Good-The-Bad-The-Ugly?p=495166&viewfull=1#post495166

  

this is an older thread with lots of info about the negative camber (but not up to date with the new "camber adjustment bolt":  http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/13825-Negative-Camber-in-the-Rear-and-Expensive-Tires 

 

 

 

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