[racchabanda] Defining Telugudanam

[Viplav Reddy]

Since Rama Rao Kanneganti said he is an athiest (there are no true
athiests imo but if he claims to come close to it, that is fine by
me), may be he will see Telugudanam in a certain light unlike others.

Let us not make any assumptions, however.

Before I go to define Telugudanam may be we should understand the word
"culture" that appears to be a euphemism. So, I borrowed Lylas
Dictonary (not the same edition, because mine cost was $5.95) and
looked it up.

Culture as defined by Webster's is: (n) the training and refinement of
mind; the social and religious structures and intellectual and
artistic manifestations etc., that characterize a society.

Any organization that purports to cater to a culture is entirely
within the confine of a region base, religion & caste.

I am not certain why Telugu organizations want to be outside of such a culture.

To do anything otherwise would not only take the focus on culture but
also make them useless to their patrons. Cultural program is
entertainment. Imagine having this discussion on the main stage, most
people will never come back (they might even ask for refund).

Now coming back to culture, it is better defined around the regional
base (space), religion, caste. The temporal aspect wrt to each of
these also interests to each of those defined groups. I am unsure if
it is as well defined wrt to a language such as Telugu.

American Culture or Russian, English, Scandinavian or any other
culture truly relates to the places they are from -- culture is a word
synonymous with place.

With Telugu culture, it is no different. From here our training to
think in a certain way guides us. For example, people agree that
Telangana culture is not synonymous with "Telugu culture"; Rayalaseema
Culture is not a substitute verbage for Telugu culture. We can not
say the same with Andhra region.

In people's minds, "Andhra Culture" comes close to "Telugu Culture".
More pointedly, they are connecting with "coastal-andhra culture" when
we speak of "Telugu culture" as they are used as synonyms by many.

I just would like to know if there are serious disagreements on this,
so far? Rama Rao?

I alone will not define Telugudanam, all of it, may with some help we
will through some light on it.

Thanks,
Viplav





To Post a message, send it to: racch...@yahoogroups.com

Converted into Telugu script by Ramarao Kanneganti's program

[Kiran Kumar Chava]

>>For example, people agree that
>>Telangana culture is not synonymous with "Telugu culture";

I don't know who agreed! But I am not agreeing. I may not know
completely what is "telugu culture" and what is telangana culture. But
if there exists one thing as "telugu culuture" it must also include
batakamma, bOnaalu, "baMDenaka baMDi kaTTI" etc...

కొస్త చుల్తురె అంటే వంసీ సినిమాలు, తెలంగానా సంస్కృతు అంటే
నారాయన మూర్తి సినిమాలూ కాదు

whereever u go u can find same culture
అవే ముగ్గులు, అవే పసుపు కుంకుమలు ద్వారబంధాలకు, అవే పెల్లిల్లు,
అవే రాజకీయాలు, అదే స్రమ, అవే కష్టాలు

నిజానికి మన పెల్లిల్లల్లో నేను చాలా తేడాలు గమనించాను, కొంత
మంది అమ్మాయి ఇంటిలో చేస్తారు, కొంత మంది అబ్బాయి ఇంటి లో చేస్తారు,
కొంత మంది కూర్చోని తాలి కడతారు, కొంత మమ్ది వధూ వరులు ఇద్దరూ
నిలబడి తాలి కడతారు, ఈ తేడాలు ప్రాంతాలు, కులాలు ను బట్టి నే
గమనించినాను

so can we define the same mono marriages of our films as complete
telugu cultural marriage, we need to include each differences and say
all are in "Telugu culture".

Is this unity in diversity?

>>Rayalaseema
>>Culture is not a substitute verbage for Telugu culture. We can not
>>say the same with Andhra region.

>>In people's minds, "Andhra Culture" comes close to "Telugu Culture".
>>More pointedly, they are connecting with "coastal-andhra culture" when
>>we speak of "Telugu culture" as they are used as synonyms by many.

Haa, I am not connecting, at least! When somebody say "Telugu culture"
I immediately think of my home, my villge, my town, etc....

>>I just would like to know if there are serious disagreements on this,
>>so far? Rama Rao?

>>I alone will not define Telugudanam, all of it, may with some help we
>>will through some light on it.

Thanks,>>For example, people agree that

>>Telangana culture is not synonymous with "Telugu culture";

I don't know who agreed! But I am not agreeing. I may not know
completely what is "telugu culture" and what is telangana culture. But
if there exists one thing as "telugu culuture" it must also include
batakamma, bOnaalu, "baMDenaka baMDi kaTTI" etc...

కొస్త చుల్తురె అంటే వంసీ సినిమాలు, తెలంగానా సంస్కృతు అంటే
నారాయన మూర్తి సినిమాలూ కాదు

whereever u go u can find same culture
అవే ముగ్గులు, అవే పసుపు కుంకుమలు ద్వారబంధాలకు, అవే పెల్లిల్లు,
అవే రాజకీయాలు, అదే స్రమ, అవే కష్టాలు

నిజానికి మన పెల్లిల్లల్లో నేను చాలా తేడాలు గమనించాను, కొంత
మంది అమ్మాయి ఇంటిలో చేస్తారు, కొంత మంది అబ్బాయి ఇంటి లో చేస్తారు,
కొంత మంది కూర్చోని తాలి కడతారు, కొంత మమ్ది వధూ వరులు ఇద్దరూ
నిలబడి తాలి కడతారు, ఈ తేడాలు ప్రాంతాలు, కులాలు ను బట్టి నే
గమనించినాను

so can we define the same mono marriages of our films as complete
telugu cultural marriage, we need to include each differences and say
all are in "Telugu culture".

Is this unity in diversity?

>>Rayalaseema
>>Culture is not a substitute verbage for Telugu culture. We can not
>>say the same with Andhra region.

>>In people's minds, "Andhra Culture" comes close to "Telugu Culture".
>>More pointedly, they are connecting with "coastal-andhra culture" when
>>we speak of "Telugu culture" as they are used as synonyms by many.

Haa, I am not connecting, at least! When somebody say "Telugu culture"
I immediately think of my home, my villge, my town, etc....

>>I just would like to know if there are serious disagreements on this,
>>so far? Rama Rao?

>>I alone will not define Telugudanam, all of it, may with some help we
>>will through some light on it.

Thanks,

vidhEyuDu
Kiran

[Savithri Machiraju]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Viplav Reddy" <vipla...@gmail.com>
To: <racch...@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 1:38 AM
Subject: [racchabanda] Defining Telugudanam


> I just would like to know if there are serious disagreements on this,
> so far? Rama Rao?
>

Yes, Viplav gaaroo, I do have serious disagreements with the following
statements of yours:

> With Telugu culture, it is no different. From here our training to
> think in a certain way guides us. For example, people agree that
> Telangana culture is not synonymous with "Telugu culture"; Rayalaseema
> Culture is not a substitute verbage for Telugu culture.

I never heard these kinds of statements until fairly recently. Before that
these were considered variations of Telugu and, yes, even Andhra culture. I
don't know why that word "Andhra" has become such a dirty word now. All
these, as well as the cultures of other parts of Andhra Pradesh, together
constituted Telugu or Andhra culture. Of course Indians in general love to
pick on the differences between themselves, trying always to identify
someone else as "the other." I think this is a luxury of numbers.

Let me give you an example from my own life experiences. When I first came
to the U.S., there were an extremely small number of people from the Indian
subcontinent. They all were thrilled to see each other, and bonded
together, irrespective of the fact that some of them came from India, and
some from Pakistan. Everyone felt that all the others were "one of us", to
distinguish from the "others" in this case, who were Americans. Over time,
as the numbers of immigrants from the subcontinent increased, there were
sufficient numbers to form state based associations, and we had the Telugu,
Tamil, Bengali, Maharashtra, etc. organizations, with little interaction
between them. Now you see, there were enough Tamils (to take a neutral
example) to be able to draw a distinction between themselves and the
"others" who were now not only Americans, but Pakistanis, and Indians from
other states as well. Now as political events evolved back in Asia, we had
to add Bangladeshis to the mix, who could now define themselves (and were
defined by others) as "other" and distinct from Pakistanis, say, as well as
Indians, even Indians of Bengali origin.

Now as the numbers of immigrants continues to grow, and the political
movement for a separate Telangana state picks up steam in India, we see its
reflection abroad, in statements like your that I have quoted above. It is
very much like what happened with the Sikhs (not all but a good majority)
during the Khalistan agitation. It came to the point that if there was an
Indian Independence Day parade, you would have Khalistani protesters
picketing it. They did not consider themselves Indians, in the same way
that people from Telegana now don't consider themselves Andhra, or perhaps
even Telugu.

As for that famous "casteist" split of the North American Telugu community
into TANA and ATA, what does that really reflect except that there were
enough Telugu people around to sustain two organizations? Anyway, splitting
organizations (or starting new ones) is a time-honored Indian tradition. We
all know about the two Telugu associations in Chicago. And a few years ago
in the SF Bay area, a second Federation of Indian Associations was started
by the losing slate of candidates. So now there are two Independence Day
parades, and two sets of executives for two different organization, each
having the same essential charter as the other. Also in the Bay area, there
are two organizations of Sri Lankans -- one Tamilian, one Sinhalese. You
see clearly how this is simply mirroring events that take place in the home
country.

And that is really what I think of Sri Afsar's "remote Telugudanam".
There's a remote control all right, but I think it is the people in India
who are remotely controlling, and dare I say spoiling, the events,
developments, and celebrations of the organizations abroad, by squeezIng
everything into their own narrow perspectives defined by prejudices that
have no place or basis in a foreign country.

For the above reasons, I obviously disagree with the following statements of
yours as well.

>We can not
> say the same with Andhra region.
>
> In people's minds, "Andhra Culture" comes close to "Telugu Culture".
> More pointedly, they are connecting with "coastal-andhra culture" when
> we speak of "Telugu culture" as they are used as synonyms by many.
>

I for one would appreciate learning why you feel that Telangana culture or
Rayalaseema culture is not "Telugu" culture, with specific examples to point
out the distinctions. In fact, I would really appreciate it if you can
explain to me whether Telangana people feel closer to Kannada people rather
than Telugu people, or if Rayalaseema people feel closer to Tamilians rather
than Telugu people. Perhaps trying to better define who the "other" is will
clarify their self identification.

Savithri Machiraju

[Kiran Kumar Chava]

[Satyanarayana Pamarty]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, "Savithri Machiraju"
<savithri@i...> wrote:

---

Anyway, splitting organizations (or starting new ones) is a
time-honored Indian tradition.

---

Talking about splitting, I am reminded of a story that I read a long
time ago. This is a free retelling, so don't expect exact words as
they appeared whereever they appeared.

****
There was a teacher by name ఉద్దాలక. (Some say this dialogue took
place betwen యాజ్ఞ్యవల్క్య and శ్వేతకేతు.) His son శ్వేతకేతు was
a troubled kid, perhaps a perfect పండిత పుత్రః. The father out of
concern for his son's well being asks the son to know himself and his
place in the scheme of things.

The son shows curiosity and asks, "Who am I?".
To explain this, the father/teacher asks him to get a fig.
The boy brings it.
The teacher asks him to cut it into two.
The son does that in a jiffy and says, "It's done".
The teacher asks, "What do you see?"
"I see these seeds".
"Great! Cut them, those seeds! What do you see now?"
"Well! You must be nuts like all fathers of teenagers are. I see two
pieces of those seeds. What else do you expect!?"
"Hmm. Keep splitting the pieces my son!"
The boy is hard at work. After a while, he's quiet.
The father asks, "Okay, What are you doing?"
"I am exhausted. I can't split any more!"
"Fine. Now, what is it that you see?"
"What the heck, I see nothing!"
"That my son, is what you are! తత్ త్వం అసీ
You take anything of any shape, colour, size etc. and keep cutting it
to its most fundamental unit and you have that same thing that
pervades the universe. That is the essence of everything. There are no
two things in the universe, my son, but only one. Everything is made
of that fundamental unit, and that you are."

****

Enough stories. Now, back to the context.

Splitting and territorial dominance are not just Indian traditions.
They are in nature itself. A tree won't let another tree grow under it
if it can help it. A tiger marks its territory with urine and won't
let any other tiger into its domain. So is the case with cats, dogs,
spiders, corpuscles in the blood, etc.

This dominance is very much evident in a kitchen. Have you ever seen
the defence put up by one who is used to a particular kitchen when
another arrives in that kitchen newly? (When that happens, may God
save our souls, if there is a God and if we have a soul*) If you
haven't experienced it, you lost out on a lot of fun and
hair-splitting. :-)

When there is enough territory, this territorial dominance and
splitting traits will not be pronounced or at least not palpable.
However, with a shortage in territory, there are bound to be skirmishes.

Going back a little in history, when India became independent, it had
what was called Madras Presidency. In this territory, there were
people who were perceived as dominating and those who were perceived
as being exploited. This anamoly could not be rectified but by
splitting the land, it was thought. Thus, that one territory became
four pieces overnight.

Now, considering the same natural trend, I am surprised that there are
calls for splitting the land into "only" three. Why not nine or more?
Say, based on the directions. We can have పూర్వాంధ్ర (తూర్పాంధ్రా),
ఆగ్నేయాంధ్రా, దక్షిణాంధ్రా, నైరుతాంధ్రా, పశ్చిమాంధ్రా, వాయువ్యాంధ్రా,
ఉత్తరాంఢ్రా,and ఈశాన్యాంధ్రా, (okay, there are only 8 directions,
but what about the middle portion? So, let's call it మధ్యమాంధ్ర).

Let us not rest there. We can further split the place up. The names
can be పూర్వాగ్నేయాంధ్రా, పూర్వదక్షిణాంధ్రా, పూర్వనైరుతాంధ్ర etc.
My math is weak. However, it won't take a big mathematician to surmise
that one day, the bathroom and the kitchen of the same house will not
be in one state. :-)

Once we gain a taste for it, I am convinced that we will not only
apply our knowledge of directions, but will also use our knowledge of
geometry to split it. There are not just 8 directions, but 360 degrees
and each degree has 60 minutes and each minute has 60 seconds. A guy
equipped with a SEM (scanning electron microscope) or similar gadget
will be able to split each second into innumerable smaller portions.
He will have great fun.

Therefore, let's all go split the place up like శ్వేతకేతు till the
obvious dawns on us. The fact that we are all one. That we are all
marooned on this island called earth with no chance of escape or
knowing what is beyond. That we live in perpetual awe in this bubble
like frogs in a well. That we live and die here, by each other's side.

Let's give it a push. Ready, steady, go!

With best wishes

Satya

*Read this somewhere. Don't remember who said it.

[Hemantha Kumar]

Yes, that is why when the argument for a separate Telangana was brought forward, I felt that Telangana should not be separated.

Some feelings I came across in my readings/life.

టెలంగాణా = తేనె మాగాణీ

టెలంగాణా = తెలుగుకి కాణాచి

టెలంగాణాం = తెలుంగు కాణప్పడుం ఇడం (in Tamil) = తెలుగు కనిపించే చోటు = తెలుగుకి కాణాచి

Best wishes
Hemantha Kumar

Kiran Kumar Chava <chava...@gmail.com> wrote:
<sniP>

I don't know who agreed! But I am not agreeing. I may not know completely what is "telugu culture" and what is telangana culture. But if there exists one thing as "telugu culuture" it must also include batakamma, bOnaalu, "baMDenaka baMDi kaTTI" etc...

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Viplav Reddy]

Kiran Chava disagrees three times & Savitri gaaru one time. Satya
Pamarti is still thinking about it.

anyone else? or you may have to hold your peace, if it is after the fact.

"Telangana Culture is not Andhra Culture" is not me giving color to
any thing new. Some one mentioned Dr. Lavanam was a guest at TANA.
Dr. Lavanam, the rationalist-athiest wrote last year an article in AJ
about cultural integration that needs to be put on a fast track and
pegged some of the discontent among Telanganites to the lack of
advancement in that area. I assure you he was not talking about
bringing Bonalu or batukamma to Andhra area. He wanted the cultural
integration from his perspective, purely Andhra.

It is fitting that TANA invited him to a talk on religious talk. Were
there any muslim or Christian speakers on the podium that day? Some
day we will learn of him in history books of Telangana as some savior
of Telangana culture by bringing what he thought to be best for
Telangana.

I guess the Christian evangelists making rounds in slums and
daLitavaaDalu make the same claims some times to bringing some thing
new that is more integrating. We know several nationalists who
disagree with them, especially more in Tamilnadu. In Telangana &
Rayalaseem such an opposition is relatively low, because of increased
tolerance. Hence Dr. Lavanam goes to Nizamabad.

Telangana culture embodies people who for good or bad exchanged ideas,
shared the agony and life from various religions and castes for
atleast five centuries. It comes across as more diverse than Andhra
region. To say that all Telangana culture is Telugu Culture is doing
a lot of injustice to those inhabitants.

To say all Andhra culture is Telugu culture is different on the other
hand if you follow the same logic, not just because of the minority of
Muslim population in that region but majority of these muslims know
more about "Telugudanam" than their counter parts in Telangana. A
muslim friend of mine from vijayanagaram spoke fluent Telugu, better
than some of my Telugu friends and most of us were surprised, he was a
different animal we as 15 year olds were not aware of. My muslim
friends from Telangana would feel the same way.

If anyone substitutes the name of "Andhra Cultural Competition" to
"Telangana Cultural competition" or changes the name of
"SiliconAndhra" to "Silicon Telangana" or "Silicon Rayalaseema" and
still thinks that they all sound the same, I would like to know.

Andhra word is not being outlawed by anyone. It needs to be
understood with correct perspective. Just because the state is named
Andhra Pradesh, it does not mean everyone is Andhra, unless ofcourse
if one decides to be that way (same as a North Indian referring to all
South Indians as southies or Tamils).

It is not about how things are practiced or if there are resemblences
to activities, it is about who gets to propagate what and how the
culture dynamic changes.

A word on resemblance to Khalistan movement: the former Justice Party
and DK movement for draviDastaan is much more closer to Khalistan than
anything else. They even sought Jinna's help in realizing that dream
and making Brahmins non-residents in their nation. To equate demand
for Telangana State with that is simply not correct. (I really want to
be polite to Savitri garu by giving her the benefit of doubt that she
has not been up to date with Telangana demand, some of my Telangana
friends would be less tolerant toward me because of my mild reply on
this).

Viplav
PS. Someone who is totally disconnected to current Telangana
discussion and not a member of this forum or any forum that I know of,
when having to make Ugadi paccaDi two days ago, when I suggested
telugunaaDi recipe, the immediate words were: that is "AndhroeLLa
recipe". I will tell you this that, that person was as far removed
from Telanganaa movement as anyone can be.

What do you say to that?

[V. Chowdary Jampala]

On Apr 12, 2005 9:49 AM, Viplav Reddy <vipla...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It is fitting that TANA invited him to a talk on religious talk.

That is a totally unwarranted, gratuitous dig.
I, for one, aprpeciated that the religious forum organizaers were not
biased against inviting an atheist to put forth his point of view.
Viplav, perhaps feels that they should have barred him for views that
he would air nine years later in a magazine on an unrelated subject.

Regards -- V Chowdary Jampala
--
Visit http://www.telugunaadi.com for Telugu Naadi, the Pulse of Telugu America

[Satyanarayana Pamarty]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, Viplav Reddy <viplavreddy@g...> wrote:

--

Kiran Chava disagrees three times & Savitri gaaru one time. Satya
Pamarti is still thinking about it.

--

I like that. :-) :-)

---

I assure you he was not talking about bringing Bonalu or batukamma to
Andhra area. He wanted the cultural integration from his perspective,
purely Andhra.

---

I think cultural exchange works two ways. Can we say, like a
reversible chemical reaction? It works both ways and achieves chemical
equilibrium at some point. It's however a slow reaction, and in this
case, it sounds like an exothermic reaction. :-)

I am hoping that there were several things that have been passed on to
both the sides if there are really two sides.

Besides, I think that the threat to any culture in India is not from
its immediate neighbours. Like some one mentioned (Was it SrI
kannEgaMTi?), the threat to south Indian culture is not even from the
west, but from Punjab. Check out the number of churidars that we see
today. parikiNi vONilu are nearly non-existent. For men, the onslaught
is of course from the west.

I don't think we can freeze any culture or a life-style over time. My
life-style changed several avatars in the short span of my life. It
has to flow, and change is inevitable.

---

Telangana culture embodies people who for good or bad exchanged ideas,

---

An exchange of ideas is for good I am sure. :-)

---

shared the agony and life from various religions and castes for
atleast five centuries.

---

Unless any society is insulated from everything else on all sides
(like some tribes are in the Andamans), this is quite natural. No one
can claim that their culture is not influenced by any other culture.

---

It comes across as more diverse than Andhra region. To say that all
Telangana culture is Telugu Culture is doing a lot of injustice to
those inhabitants.

---

Hmm. I think this is where we have to understand this better. We have
to pin down what the larger set is. If you think of telugu culture as
the larger set, then, possibly telengANA culture, kOstA culture and
rAyalasIma culture are subsets. If you think Indian culture as the
larger set, then, telugu culture, tamiL culture, kannaDa culture etc.
can be subsets.

I think SrI viplav is not willing to accept the larger set is telugu
culture which he equates with Andhra culture. So, what is the larger
set according to him? Indian culture? South Indian culture?

In my opinion, there are circles of Venn diagrams everywhere. Every
place on the face of this earth lies as a confluence of one or more
Venn circles. Makes sense? What I mean is, nothing is pure. Just as
SrI viplav claims that telangANA culture is a confluence, so is every
other culture whether we like it or not.

---

Andhra word is not being outlawed by anyone. It needs to be understood
with correct perspective. Just because the state is named
Andhra Pradesh, it does not mean everyone is Andhra, unless ofcourse
if one decides to be that way (same as a North Indian referring to all
South Indians as southies or Tamils).

---

I always thought "Andhra" was the larger set of which people from
rAyalasIma, Coastal districts, and telaMgANA were subsets. Not so? Oh!
What are the larger set of people who speak a reasonably similar
language, use the same script, have similar food habits, have similar
names, to be called then? Is there no collective identity for us after
all?

How proud I was when I went with my Tamil friend from Madras to Delhi
by train more than a decade ago. We entered our state early in the
morning and were still in it by the night of that same day. Okay, I
know similar situations (when trains don't go) exist in other places
too, but that's not what I mean. :-) What I mean is, ours is a huge
state and we should have some collective identity whatever be its
name. Okay, I thought we had one till today. I have been jolted into
reality now. :-(

----

It is not about how things are practiced or if there are resemblences
to activities, it is about who gets to propagate what and how the
culture dynamic changes.

----

Why should anyone propagate anything? With an exchange of ideas,
culture on both sides is bound to change anyway (with or without walls!).

I don't understand the purpose of a new wall. Is it for keeping the
culture dynamic from changing? Is it to create a new place where there
can be a new set of corrupt politicians and rulers? What is the
purpose of the new wall? What will it achieve? What will be new after
the wall is built? I would be happy to know.

-----

PS. Someone who is totally disconnected to current Telangana
discussion and not a member of this forum or any forum that I know of,
when having to make Ugadi paccaDi two days ago, when I suggested
telugunaaDi recipe, the immediate words were: that is "AndhroeLLa
recipe". I will tell you this that, that person was as far removed
from Telanganaa movement as anyone can be.

What do you say to that?

-----

I say, I want to know the other recipe. If you tell me, I will try it
next year. If it sounds like fun, I won't wait till next year. If I
like the taste, I will use it till I don't like it. :-)

Thanks and best wishes

Satya

[Bhaskar T.L.S.]

The discussion unintentionally already equated Telugudanamu to Telugu
culture. As terms like culture are loaded and subjective, we should
refer to definitions given by sociologists or anthropologists. Well,
broadly culture is a way of life as defined by Taylor. Now we have
the phrase Telugu Culture. As we know culture as a way of life people
lead, let us try to define what it means by Telugu, in "Telugu
culture".

History equates Telugu to Andhra, and we have been following this
equation. Hence, what is wrong in using them interchangeably? Hence,
wherever we are located, we are all Telugus or Andhras (telangana,
raayalaseema or coastal AP). So, there is nothing wrong in using the
term siliconandhra and it does not underestimate anyone (before you
can assume and think too much, yes, I am an active supporter of its
activities). We should understand the term in an all-inclusive
perspective, because we already know it's too difficult for us to
define who is a Telugu/Andhra? And who define the term? In what
Situations? (Gramsci). Well, once we are able to define, we can
define what is Telugudanamu or Telugu culture.

Well, for a discussion, define what is Telugu, who is a Telugu, who
constitute Telugu population. Then you have a double/more :P lane
free way for the discussion. You will realise how easy the process is.

Bhaskar

[Viplav Reddy]

[Moderators' note: We don't object or have anything against pro-Telangaana stance of individuals. It is individual choice. But as moderators of a group with decided focus, our concern is about how one puts forward his/her arguments on this forum. As long as one states/argues his/her stance in a way that does not belittle or take digs at other discussants, we will have no problem. However, a pure political Andhra vs Telangana discussion is definitely beyond this charter. But if one wants to discuss and demonstrate regional cultural differences, their causes and impacts, in academic manner, it is quite fine with us.

Re: "Telugu Culture" and the proposed suggestion, unless a clear distinction is shown or agreed upon academically, the wording in the charter may not be changed.

Regards,
Sreenivas Paruchuri - Listowner and Moderator]

In replying to Jampala gaari 'Dig' comment I wrote further on this
subject and the message was not approved. Based on the note I got
from Sri Paruchuri, the list owner, this forum is not intended for
discussion on Andhra vs Telangana Politics.

Thats all I wanted to say.

I will add a request to the list owner on the original subject of
Telugu Culture. I would like him to consider revising the Charter by
substituting those two words: "Telugu Culture" with "cultures of all
Telugu people".

I think that is a reasonable request, considering Chowdari gaari
comment that RB can not be perceived as one that belongs to C.
Andhrites alone.

Thanks & regards, Viplav

[J. K. Mohana Rao]

--- Viplav Reddy <vipla...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> substituting those two words: "Telugu Culture" with "cultures of all
> Telugu people".
>

Who are Telugu people?
Are they who live in AP or parts of AP?
Are they whose mother tongue is Telugu?
Are they who can speak Telugu?
Are they who are interested in Telugu?
Are they none or one or more or all of the above?

I am confused and would like to be enlightened.

Regards! - J K Mohana Rao




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[spalthepu]

Dear Friends,

I was not following this board recently and dont know the background
on this thread. But I cannot let this statement pass:

> History equates Telugu to Andhra, and we have been following this

I have strong objection to this statement.
I would like to know which history says that.
Regardless of the original literal meaning of
word Andhra, as it stands now everyone will and can
make distinction between words Telugu from Andhra.
Andhra and Telangana are two distinct identities and
cultures with some commonalities.

Am I allowed to make a reverse statement saying that the word
Telangana should be viewed as the same as the word Telugu?


thanks
Srini

[j_sreenadh]

If this was an academic question, I think we will have to accept that
culture, like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder. It means
different things to different people.

But this is not of academic interest only; The phrase Telugu Culture
appears three times in the charter, and the charter is being used to
adjudicate the admissibility of postings.

So it is up to the moderators to define what, in their view, is Telugu
Culture. And specifically, "Discussions about politics ... only to the
extent of ... their place in Telugu Culture".

- Sreenadh


--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, "J. K. Mohana Rao" <jkmrao@y...>
wrote:

>

> Who are Telugu people?
> Are they who live in AP or parts of AP?
> Are they whose mother tongue is Telugu?
> Are they who can speak Telugu?
> Are they who are interested in Telugu?
> Are they none or one or more or all of the above?

[V. Chowdary Jampala]

On 4/13/05, spalthepu <psr...@mail.com> wrote:
> Am I allowed to make a reverse statement saying that the word
> Telangana should be viewed as the same as the word Telugu?

Borrowing a dialog from మాయబజార్, ఎవరూ ప్రతిపాదించకుండా
మాటలకు కొత్త అర్థాలు ఎలా పుడతాయ్?

The current and historical usage of Telangana generally refers to a
geographical region of the erstwhile Hyderabad State. The word Andhra
has been used to refer to a language, a region and to a tribe of
people whereas kostaa and raayalaseema refer only to a region and not
to the language or a tribe of people. The historical usage of Andhra
to describe a region (and a language), I believe, extended beyond the
coastal and raayalseema regions. After all, the original identity
movement of Telugus in the Hyderabad State occured under the banner of
Andhramahaasabha.

Regards -- V Chowdary Jampala
--
Visit http://www.telugunaadi.com for Telugu Naadi, the Pulse of Telugu America

[J. K. Mohana Rao]

--- spalthepu <psr...@mail.com> wrote:

> Andhra and Telangana are two distinct identities and
> cultures with some commonalities.
>

In 1953, when the Andhra state was bifurcated from the Madras
Presidency, it consisted of districts from Srikakulam
to Nellore on the coast and chittUr, kaDapa, karnUl,
anaMtapUr and a few tAlUks of baLLAri. When the states
were reorganised in 1956, the Telugu speaking part of the
erstwhile Hyderabad state (class B - rAjpramukh) was
added to Andhra and Andhra Pradesh came into being.
There was discussion as to whether it should be called
viSAlAMdhra or Andhra Pradesh. The name AP was
chosen that it would be alphabetically the first
state in the Indian Union. Now, I think A&N Islands
usurped that distinction.

The question is, are the people in Andhra Pradesh not
Andhras? They may all not be Telugus in the sense
that their "culture" may not be Telugu, but more than 90%
are. Or is there any other name for the denizens
of AP, apians?

I am still confused. What is "Telugu culture"? Is
it not the culture of the people with Telugu background
in the broadest sense (language, literature, arts, music,
etc.). Donot exclude among these, those people whose roots
may not be very deep in AP, but who are genuinley
interested in the growth and flowering of "Telugu
culture", again in the broadest sense. They may
be people in other states with Telugu as their mother
tongue or people who are interested in Telugu arts
like music, dance and literature.

Somehow, I find it rather strange that people in
some parts of AP think that they donot share the
culture of their land whereas those, for example,
in Mauritius or Maldives believe their culture
is Telugu.

Regards! - J K(onfused) Mohana Rao

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[Kamesh]

> Besides, I think that the threat to any culture in India is not from
> its immediate neighbours. Like some one mentioned (Was it SrI
> kannEgaMTi?), the threat to south Indian culture is not even from the
> west, but from Punjab. Check out the number of churidars that we see
> today. parikiNi vONilu are nearly non-existent. For men, the onslaught
> is of course from the west.
> I don't think we can freeze any culture or a life-style over time. My
> life-style changed several avatars in the short span of my life. It
> has to flow, and change is inevitable.

> Unless any society is insulated from everything else on all sides
> (like some tribes are in the Andamans), this is quite natural. No one
> can claim that their culture is not influenced by any other culture.

There is no dispute on the point that change is inevitable. However
following questions are valid:

1. Is the change "bad"? (something which is universally accepted
as "bad")
2. Is the change "natural" or "artificial"? It is difficult to define
the quoted words, but we can try to understand them from your example
of churidars and fashions from west. I think that the chudidars is
a "natural" change since it is more because of the comfort it gives
women in their changed lifestyle. However other fashions from West, I
consider them to be "artificial" because they are purely based on
advertising and other market forces. Also if the change is brought
about by force, I would consider it as worse than "artificial".
3. What are the consequences of the change? (for example, does it
threaten the existance of an entire race?)
Sometimes, it becomes very difficult to rationally say if the change is
(for) good or bad. For example if we consider the influence of English
language on telugu people, it is a cultural change. But is it natural
or artificial? Is it good or bad? Why do we raise a huge uproar against
it? These are all very valid questions, but complex to answer. But for
someone who is just an ardent lover of telugu language and does not
care about any rationale, the change is bad and he would passionately
fight against it.

regards,
Kameswara Rao.

[Sudesh Pillutla]

While the serious discussion is going on this subject, "paanakamlO
puDakalAgA", I have a question.

telugu+tanamu = telugudanamu,

idi E sandhi?

Please excuse this comical interruption and some one let me know the
name of the sandhi and its explanation.
Is there any oinline telugu grammar resource available so that I can
refresh my grammar?

Thanks

Sudesh

[J. K. Mohana Rao]

--- Sudesh Pillutla <sudeshp...@yahoo.com> wrote:


> తెలుగు+తనము = తెలుగుదనము,
> ఇది ఏ సంధి?
>
ప్రథమము మీది పరుషములకు గ-స-డ-ద-వలు అగు
కావున ఇది గసడదవాదేశ సంధి అనుకొంటాను.

విధేయుడు - మోహన

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[spalthepu]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, "V. Chowdary Jampala"
<cjampala@g...> wrote:

>
> On 4/13/05, spalthepu <psrini@m...> wrote:
> > Am I allowed to make a reverse statement saying that the word
> > Telangana should be viewed as the same as the word Telugu?
>
> Borrowing a dialog from మాయబజార్, ఎవరూ ప్రతిపాదించకుండా
> మాటలకు కొత్త అర్థాలు ఎలా పుడతాయ్?

Are you sugesting that Andhra Mahasabha started the new definition
of Andhra to include Telangana?

> The current and historical usage of Telangana generally refers to a
> geographical region of the erstwhile Hyderabad State. The word
Andhra

I think it is a gross oversimplification. Telangana is not just piece
of land. It is also language, culture, shared identity including
shared suffering through perdions like Nizam's oppression and later.

> to the language or a tribe of people. The historical usage of Andhra
> to describe a region (and a language), I believe, extended beyond
the
> coastal and raayalseema regions. After all, the original identity
> movement of Telugus in the Hyderabad State occured under the banner
of
> Andhramahaasabha.

The history of Andhra mahasabha's role along with Communists during
Telangana struggle against Nizam should not be confused with
Telangana people's identity subssumed by Andhra. Andhra Mahasabha
was started first in Madras to gain Andhra identity and then a state
from Madras. It was later extended to Telangana along with Communist
Parties that are supporting Telagana peoples struggle against Nizam.
There is no histircal evidence that Telangana people ever
used words like Andhra to describe themselves. One has to study
that period carefully to even understand communist parties now and
their stand against Telangana state, which is against their own
ideology of solidarity for any liberation struggles.

thanks
srini

[vcjampala]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, "spalthepu" <psrini@m...> wrote:

> > On 4/13/05, spalthepu <psrini@m...> wrote:
> > > Am I allowed to make a reverse statement saying that the word
> > > Telangana should be viewed as the same as the word Telugu?
> >
> > Borrowing a dialog from మాయబజార్, ఎవరూ ప్రతిపాదించకుండా
> > మాటలకు కొత్త అర్థాలు ఎలా పుడతాయ్?
>
> Are you sugesting that Andhra Mahasabha started the new definition
> of Andhra to include Telangana?

No, I was merely saying that Sri Palthepu has no reason to ask for anyone's permission to initiate a new usage or see a new meaning in an old usage.

Regards -- V. Chowdary Jampala

[seshavadapalli]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, "V. Chowdary Jampala"
<cjampala@g...> wrote:

> After all, the original identity
> movement of Telugus in the Hyderabad State occured under the banner
of
> Andhramahaasabha.
>
> Regards -- V Chowdary Jampala

"నిజాంరాష్ట్రాంధ్ర జనసంఘము", "ఆంధ్ర మహాసభ"ల కొన్ని
వివరములుగల
దేవులపల్లి రామానుజరావు గారి "తెలంగాణములో ఆంధ్రోద్యమము"
అను వ్యాసమును క్రింది చోట చదువగలరు.

http://www.andhrabharati.com/vachana/vyAsamulu/telaMgANalO_udyamAlu3.h
tml

----
namassulatO,
V.S.T.Sayee.

[Srinivas Nagulapalli]

తెలుగుదనం కన్నా తెలుగు"ధ"నం తేల్చి చెప్పడం సులభమనుకుంటాను:-)

> But if one wants to discuss and demonstrate regional cultural
> differences, their causes and impacts, in academic manner, it is
> quite fine with us.

I recently read that noted writer పోరంకి దక్షిణామూర్త్య్ wrote
the first novel using Telangana మాండలికం. I do not remember
the title and would like to know if any one has comments/reviews of
it.

Generally, any language that assimilates foreign words and phrases
is considered more open and seems to grow stronger, like English.
However, while Telangana dialect has assimilated and made as its own
many Urdu words, it does not seem to have gained much importance
academically or otherwise. Is this perception legitimate or true?
Not many works or books written in or expounding about Telangana
dialect were available (in any book store) until
few years (< 10) ago. Strangely only after the issue is politicised
there seems to surge in such publications or efforts to cater to
people of the region. I do not know how legitimate this
perception is either.

Regards
-Srinivas

[Suresh K. Volam]

saraLAdESa saMdhi.

Suresh.

[V. Chowdary Jampala]

On 4/13/05, spalthepu <psr...@mail.com> wrote:

> The history of Andhra mahasabha's role along with Communists during
> Telangana struggle against Nizam should not be confused with
> Telangana people's identity subssumed by Andhra. Andhra Mahasabha
> was started first in Madras to gain Andhra identity and then a state
> from Madras. It was later extended to Telangana along with Communist
> Parties that are supporting Telagana peoples struggle against Nizam.
> There is no histircal evidence that Telangana people ever
> used words like Andhra to describe themselves.

Sri Palthepu probably knows a lot more about the history of Telangana
than I ever could. However, my admittedly limited readings of it paint
quite a different picture about the use of the word Andhra in
Telangana than what Sri Palthepu states. From what I read, the Telugus
in Telangana in the first half of the 20th century do not seem to have
had much reservation about calling themselves as Andhras. One can see
that in Devulapalli Ramanujarao's (who belonged to Telangana) note
posted by Sri VST Sayee which uses the term ఆంధ్ర and
నిజంరాష్ట్రాంధ్ర quite often.

The గ్రంథాలయ movement is considered as the first attempt at
Telugu language movement in Telangana, and the first library was named
శ్రీకృష్ణదేవరాయ అంధ్ర గ్రంథాలయము. The first organization
striving for the self-respect of Telugus in Hyderabad State named
itself నిజాంరాష్ట్రాంధ్ర జన సంఘంఉ (December 11, 1922). The
terms నిజామాంధ్రులు, బ్రిటిషాంధ్రులు were quite common in use at
that time among Telugus of Hyderabad State. ఆంధ్ర మహాసభ was
in TelangaaNaa a long time before the communists.

The identity struggle of the early days in Telangana used to be
referred to as ఆంధ్రోద్యమంఉ. దాశరధి కృష్ణమాచార్య once noted that the Nizam was afraid of the word Andhra and would not permit a journal to be named Andhra.

The father of the graMthaalaya movement in Telangana, Sri మాడపాతి
హనుమంతరావు గారు used to be referred to as ఆంధ్రపితామహ,
and he named his house ఆంధ్రకుటీరం

Even కాలోజీ, the quintessential conscience of Telangana (in the
eyes of some), addressed the Telugus of the Hyderabad State as
ఆంధ్రులు (the poem - ఆంధ్రుడా!, 1949).

Seems to me that there is plenty of historical evidence that some
people of Telangana, often considered to be the leaders of the people
of Telangana in the first half of the 20th century, referred to
themselves as Andhras.

Regards -- V Chowdary Jampala

--
Visit http://www.telugunaadi.com for Telugu Naadi, the Pulse of Telugu America

[seshavadapalli]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, "Sudesh Pillutla"

<sudeshpillutla@y...> wrote:
>
>
> While the serious discussion is going on this subject, "paanakamlO
> puDakalAgA", I have a question.
>
> telugu+tanamu = telugudanamu,
>
> idi E sandhi?
>
> Please excuse this comical interruption and some one let me know
the
> name of the sandhi and its explanation.
> Is there any oinline telugu grammar resource available so that I
can
> refresh my grammar?
>

పరవస్తు చిన్నయసూరి గారి
బాలవ్యాకరణము నందలి
సంధి పరిచ్ఛేదములో సూత్రము (సూక్తి) - 35

ఉదంత స్త్రీసమంబులకును, బుంపులగు నదంతగుణవాచకంబులకును
దనంబు పరంబగునపుడు నుగాగమంబగు.

సొగసు + తనము = సొగసుందనము, సొగసుఁదనము, సొగసుందనము
సరసపు + తనము = సరసపుందనము, సరసపుఁదనము,
సరసపుందనము
తెల్ల + తనము = తెల్లందనము, తెల్లఁదనము, తెల్లందనము

----
మోహనరావుగారు చెప్పిన గసడదవాదేశ సంధి - సూత్రము 13
----

http://andhrabharati.com/bhAshha/bAlavyAkaraNamu/saMdhi.html

----
namassulatO,
V.S.T.Sayee.

[Viplav Reddy]

After all this discussion, I still think we can find ways to
understand this better. Let us forget about the suggested change to
the charter, ATA, TANA discussion, Afsar's column, C. Andhra
telugudanam and my rants & biases for a few minutes. Let us look at
it as impartially as possible to understand the "language" and
"culture" out side of Telugu or Andhra context.

My understanding of Hispanic culture is that not all spanish speaking
people are Hispanics and not all hispanics are spanish speaking
people. Same goes to English or Russian or any other (there is one
exception I will talk about it later). Language and culture are two
different things. That is why we refer to them as "language" and
"culture". The phrase "language based culture" which is a bit more
focussed and confined to a specific set.

Why is culture different from language? let us look at teachers interpretation:

"Battista (1984) argues that cultural skills should be the fifth skill
after the other four language skills (speaking, listening, reading and
writing)." One may speak, understand, read and write Arabic but may
never get closer to understanding the culture. Should we combine Shia
and Sunni under the same language umbrella just because they happen to
speak a same or similar language at some places or regions/nations?
Cultural integrationists and social scientists might want to do that
under the guise of social experiment -- and no one else.

I write chapters on Environmental Justice. When I was thrown at the
wall with a sentence that spoke volumes that said, "the whitemen's
cars through the black men's bedrooms" -- referring to the beltway
around DC, I had to revise my theory with respect to "whose benefit"
and at "what cost" -- we now include and acknowledge multiplicity and
diversity with in unity. The emphasis is on "Diversity" in the new
world -- starting with the Kindergarten (I happen to visit one
everyday). I do believe theirs will be a better world because they
understand concepts I still struggle with.

Part of being an Academic is also about disagreement. Please
disagree, like I always say.

Combining culture with a language is not just confusing, it is
incorrect. We can understand one better with the other as a tool --
if history and evolution are to be the subjects.

Thanks & regards,
-viplav-

[vnagarjuna]

I have always felt that a shared historical experience is more
important than language, names etc. for a shared cultural experience.
The Telangana sayudha poratam which is part and parcel of the
Telangana identity has absolutely no resonance in villages outside
Telangana. Ever since the Nizams sold the coastal Andhra to the
British in the 17th century, the people of the two regions have faced
very different circumstances and conditions. I believe that most of
the economic, social and cultural differences between the two regions
can be traced back to that sale.

Thanks,
nagarjuna

[Krishna Rao Maddipati]

On 4/14/05 10:13 AM, "Viplav Reddy" <vipla...@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20

> Combining culture with a language is not just confusing, it is

> incorrect.=20=20

Can it be that definitive?

During a conversation Akkineni Nageswara Rao garu once said:

=B3ప్రపంచానికి నేను భారతీయుణ్ణి, భారతీయులకి నేను తెలుగువాణ్ణి, తెలుగు
వాళ్ళకి నేను అభిమాన నటుణ్ణి, రామాపురంలో అక్కినేని వారబ్బాయిని.=B2

Doesn=B9t it all depend on the level at which you observe?

Isn=B9t culture a subset of language? May not be an exclusive subset, but
nevertheless, it is. As you go up the ladder in generalization, you have to
include more and more disparate characteristics that define the group.
Downward divisions are based on more and more exclusive characteristics. It
all depends on the set limits.

Telugus celebrate Ugadi. That doesn=B9t mean all Telugus nor only Telugus (=
as
Kannadigas do too), but a significant majority of them. If you look from th=
e
perspective of Ugadi celebration, then Telugus and Kannadigas become
subsets.

Telugu (for that matter any language) as a linguistic group has many subset=
s
not the least of which are dialect-speaking groups. The common cultural
denominators of =8Call=B9 Telugus, if one can make such a list, becomes Tel=
ugu
culture; a point at which both are unified. Naturally, =8Call=B9 is such an
impossible task, people tend to settle for the majority. At what percentage
you call it a majority, is where all confrontations start, in my opinion.

Krishna Rao

P.S. Forgive me if the above sounded like a lecture. It was not all
intentional.=20

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Satyanarayana Pamarty]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, "Kamesh" <kamesh_b@y...> wrote:

----

> There is no dispute on the point that change is inevitable. However
> following questions are valid:

----

కామేశ్వర రావు గారికి నమస్తే

----

> 1. Is the change "bad"? (something which is universally accepted
> as "bad")

----

I think this is subjective. Depends on which side of the table one is.
If you are promoting the change, it always looks good. If you are the
one on whom it is being promoted, it sometimes looks like it is bad. :-)

----

> 2. Is the change "natural" or "artificial"?

----

Man has reached the glorious state where he can do even "natural"
things in an "artificial" way. For example, even making kids
artificially is now possible due to technological advances. May be,
the slide into doing things "artificially" was a "natural" progression
in the evolutionary scale. :-)

----

> 3. What are the consequences of the change? (for example, does it
threaten the existance of an entire race?)

----

It depends on what "change" means here and also on its magnitude.
Change can be of various types and intensities. If it is like the
change that occurred on the earth when the meteorite that wiped out
dinosaurs fell, then it could threaten a race or life on earth itself.

If it were of the type that occurred during the second world war, then
it could threaten the existence of a race.

Other varieties of change might just kill the practices and cultures
of people and not the people themselves.

The consequences of the impact depend mainly on the momentum and the
direction of impact of the impacting body. :-)

----

Sometimes, it becomes very difficult to rationally say if the change
is (for) good or bad.

----

Like I said before, both could be true depending on your point of view.

----

But for someone who is just an ardent lover of telugu language and
does not care about any rationale, the change is bad and he would
passionately fight against it.

----

I guess that is true.

Thanks and best wishes

Satya

[spalthepu]

qq&@

> Sri Palthepu probably knows a lot more about the history of
Telangana
> than I ever could. However, my admittedly limited readings of it
paint

In fact Sri Jampalagaru seem to have read lot more about Telangana
than me, despite his statement above. I will try to catchup with
him sometime.

> quite a different picture about the use of the word Andhra in
> Telangana than what Sri Palthepu states. From what I read, the
Telugus
> in Telangana in the first half of the 20th century do not seem to
have
> had much reservation about calling themselves as Andhras. One can

Like I said, the period of Telangan people's struggle against Nizam
should be viewed in proper context vis-a-vis Telangana identity.
Those were the times where people were supressed by dictator and
any identity that is challenging the oppressors identity was
used as a means to assert themselves. We need to look at larger
history of people to understand the over all Telangana identity.
Telanana people did not have luxury and freedome of defining their
language and identity in a formal way as they were under nizams
rule where rulers langaue culture is the one used in schools,
colleges etc. If you could not read Urdu, you were not considered
educated. But language and culture is verymuch alive and kicking
among masses at large. Andhrabhasha movement provided a prop for
them to challenge Nizam. As Prof Madhusudhan Reddy said, during the
last 400 years, Telangana people were truly free only for four
years (from Sept 17th, 1948 to Nov 1953).

> see that in Devulapalli Ramanujarao's (who belonged to Telangana)
note
> posted by Sri VST Sayee which uses the term ఆంధ్ర and
> నిజంరాష్ట్రాంధ్ర quite often.

The last sentence in the writeup pretty much sums up what the
article's mindest is. I dont need to say much about it.

> The గ్రంథాలయ movement is considered as the first attempt at
> Telugu language movement in Telangana, and the first library was
named

> శ్రీకృష్ణదేవరాయ అంధ్ర గ్రంథాలయ.

ఠిస్ ఇస్ ఎస్సెంతీల్ తొ ఉందెర్స్తంద్ థె ఇస్సుఎ. ంఒస్త్ ఈర్ల్య్
టెలంగన స్చొలర్స్ వెరె ఎదుచతెద్ ఇన్ శన్స్క్రితంధ్ర భష
విథ్ లర్గె రెలిగిఔస్ ఉప్బ్రింగింగ్. ఛొమింగ్ ఫ్రొం మొస్త్ల్య్ బ్రహ్మిన్
అంద్ ఉప్పెర్చస్త్ ఫమిలిఎస్ థెయ్ తెంద్ తొ ఉసె మొరె ఆంధ్రభసహ్
థన్ టెలంగన మత ఇన్ థైర్ వొర్క్స్. టెలంగన మత వస్ నొత్ గివెన్
ఎఊల్ స్తతుస్ తొ థె "స్తందర్ద్" వ్రిత్తెన్ సన్స్క్రితిజెద్ అంధ్ర భష.
ఠిస్ త్య్పె ఒఫ్ ఉసె ఒఫ్ వొర్ద్ ఆంధ్ర ఇస్ నొత్ థె సమె అస్ వ్హత్ ఇస్
అచ్చెప్తెద్ బ్య్ మస్సెస్ అత్ లర్గె ఫొర్ థెమ్సెల్వెస్ విఎవెద్ అస్
ఆంధ్ర పెఒప్లె. ఈఫ్ థెయ్ హద్, ఈ వౌల్ద్ లికె తొ సీ థె ఎవిదెంచె
గొఇంగ్ బెయొంద్ థె పెరిఒద్ ఒఫ్ ఈర్ల్య్ 20థ్ చెంతుర్య్.

ళీవింగ్ అసిదె దిస్చుస్సిఒన్ అబౌత్ థె పస్త్, థెరె ఇస్ నొ ఉఎస్తిఒన్ ఒర్
దౌబ్త్ థత్ థె వొర్ద్ ఆంధ్ర దోస్ నొత్ దెస్చ్రిబెస్ టెలంగన ఇదెంతిత్య్
నౌ. వె నీద్ తొ అచ్చెప్త్ థిస్ అస్ రీలిత్య్.

> శీమ్స్ తొ మె థత్ థెరె ఇస్ ప్లెంత్య్ ఒఫ్ హిస్తొరిచల్ ఎవిదెంచె థత్ సొమె
> పెఒప్లె ఒఫ్ టెలంగన, ఒఫ్తెన్ చొన్సిదెరెద్ తొ బె థె లీదెర్స్ ఒఫ్ థె
పెఒప్లె
> ఒఫ్ టెలంగన ఇన్ థె ఫిర్స్త్ హల్ఫ్ ఒఫ్ థె 20థ్ చెంతుర్య్, రెఫెర్రెద్ తొ
> థెమ్సెల్వెస్ అస్ ఆంధ్రస్.
>
> ఋఎగర్ద్స్ -- వ్ ఛౌదర్య్ ఝంపల


థంక్స్ రెగర్ద్స్
శ్రిని









టొ ఫొస్త్ అ మెస్సగె, సెంద్ ఇత్ తొ: రచ్చబందయహూగ్రౌప్స్.చొం

[Srinivas Nagulapalli]

~


--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, SrI Satyanarayana Pamarty gAru
wrote:

namaskAraM

> There was a teacher by name ఉద్దాలక. (Some say this dialogue took
> place betwen యాజ్ఞ్యవల్క్య and శ్వేతకేతు.)
> [snip]
>"Fine. Now, what is it that you see?"
> "What the heck, I see nothing!"
> "That my son, is what you are! తత్ త్వం అసీ

ఉద్దాలక వృత్తాంతం బాగుంది. A small correction.
I heard different variation, but even so, శ్వేటకేతు
never said he saw "nothing"! "Nothing" and nihilism, is
Buddhistic philosophy శూన్య వాదం. In the variant I heard and
liked, శ్వేతకేతు keeps on answering at every attempt
that he is one of the పంచ కోశాలు- starting with
అన్నమయ, ప్రాణమయ, మనోమయ, విజ్ఆనమయ and finally he
claims or better exclaims he is ఆనందమయ. Anyway, the
take away point for me was తత్ త్వం అసి does not direct at
"nothing" , but definitely something!
>
> Enough stories. Now, back to the context.

Well- my turn too!
<begin-story>
Actually this is not story, but an incident
happened in Washington DC in a multi-faith seminar that was
narrated to me by someone who attended it. A question was asked
"Who does not exist" and there were raised hands it seems.
<end story>
>
> Therefore, let's all go split the place up like శ్వేతకేతు till the
> obvious dawns on us. The fact that we are all one.

True and I think we already do! But for the walls we have, we
wouldn't be living in or having "apart"ments. We would only be
having "together"ments.

To reminisce ఉద్దాలక again, if that అద్వితీయం One itself,
can split itself/himself/herself into so many variegated universes
with so many names and forms, what is there to be dawned for us!?

Regards
-Srinivas

To Post a message, send it to: racch...@yahoogroups.com

[Srinivas Pendyala]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: spalthepu [mailto:psr...@mail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 12:50 PM
> Like I said, the period of Telangan people's struggle against Nizam
> should be viewed in proper context vis-a-vis Telangana identity.
> Those were the times where people were supressed by dictator and
> any identity that is challenging the oppressors identity was
> used as a means to assert themselves. We need to look at larger
> history of people to understand the over all Telangana identity.
> Telanana people did not have luxury and freedome of defining their
> language and identity in a formal way as they were under nizams
> rule where rulers langaue culture is the one used in schools,
> colleges etc. If you could not read Urdu, you were not considered
> educated. But language and culture is verymuch alive and kicking
> among masses at large. Andhrabhasha movement provided a prop for
> them to challenge Nizam. As Prof Madhusudhan Reddy said, during the
> last 400 years, Telangana people were truly free only for four
> years (from Sept 17th, 1948 to Nov 1953).

This is certainly an interesting perspective. Does it mean that the Nizam's
rule and the associated Islamic culture is a significant/dominant part of
the Telangana identity? Does the Nizamic influence continue to play a
dominant role even now? Are there any Islamic cultural practices that are
part of the Telangana identity?

My observation from living in Hyderabad and Kurnool (Rayalaseema) that have
significant Muslim populations is that the Hindus and the Muslims are
socially and culturally segregated from each other. There is no significant
cultural interaction between the two groups that has resulted in a hybrid
Hindu-Muslim culture that is distinctly different from the other cultures
that we see in other parts of AP.

I also briefly lived in Mahabubnagar and did not observe too many Islamic
influences. For that matter, I did not feel that it was very different from
any of the other towns that I have seen in Rayalaseema or Andhra. However,
let me say that I have no first hand knowledge of the life and culture of
the villages in any of these areas. Do you think that distinct Telangana
culture can mainly be observed in the villages?

Srinivas Pendyala

To Post a message, send it to: racch...@yahoogroups.com

[Sreenivas Paruchuri]

vnagarjuna wrote:

> Nizams sold the coastal Andhra to the British in the 17th century,

Thats little too early, Nagarajuna gaaru :-)

Regards,
Sreenivas

[Viplav Reddy]

On 4/14/05 10:13 AM, "Viplav Reddy" <viplavreddy@...> wrote:

>> Combining culture with a language is not just confusing, it is
>> incorrect.

KR Maddipati wrote:

>Can it be that definitive?

Yes, Krishna rao garu it is definitive, as cocky as it sounds.

Atleast more definitive than when you combine them both. Please read
below.

>Doesn=B9t it all depend on the level at which you observe?

>Isn=B9t culture a subset of language? May not be an exclusive subset, but

>nevertheless, it is. As you go up the ladder in generalization, you have t=

o
>include more and more disparate characteristics that define the group.

No, this has nothing to do with the levels of understanding,
integration, community etc.,

Language and Culture are two different boxes that happen to be
standing next to each other. They communicate often. They are easily
confused because for such a long time we confused Apples and Oranges
to mean all the same fruits -- they were clearly different: Apples &
Oranges. A name of a language can not be confused with the culture
that also happens to use it. Both together represent the peoples
social dynamic at the time of measurement.

Language is an abstract. We write C A T to denote an animal that does
not resemble the animal Cat in any shape or form yet we are trained to
associate letters CAT to mean the animal. The abstract will come to
represent the underlying understanding of communities. People had a
culture even during those times when there was no language or when present =
day=20
Telugu was in infancy. People will continue to develop their cultures
independent of the Language identity.

Michael Byram, a linguist and Professor at the University of Durham
says Teaching a Language alone, represents a narrow sense of teaching.
It requires cultural aspect as prop to cover a wider theme, this also
indicates they are not one and the same. That does not diminish its
importance in anyway.

There are many Spanish speaking people who are not hispanics, as an
example. There can be Telugu speakers who are not Telugus.

CP Brown or David Shulman do not belong to Telugu Culture even as they
might know Telugu as a language better than many of their contemporary
pundits in Telugu. They can still be language experts. Is there a
Sanskrit Culture today, even as we know that Sanskrit was used as a
tool for communication? To answer that question -- Yes, there are
remnants of that same culture but the language as a tool disappeared.

Consider Microsoft & Apple cultures --- they are different, under the
same software umbrella -- their programming language could be same.=20
How can we confuse their language they use to write programs, with
their cultures?

Telugu is often confused with some culture it represents. In order
for Telugu as a language to reach different heights it needs to be
decoupled from the cultural aspect it came to identify with. Telugu
literature will engage in different areas if we decouple it like I
said.

A hundred years ago, we had people who knew multiple languages. Those
who wrote in Sanskrit also knew Parsian. People wrote in Tamil and
Kannada. That much we have straight from Prof. Velcheru. For the
langauge to grow it needs to cover multiple cultures, and experiences
in Science, Art, and Music regardless of their origins in relation to
a single culture, and it will happen only if it can be delinked with
the single culture, it is identified with.

It is healthy for both sets, culture and language to be independent of
each other. It is more detrimental for the language if it continues
to be limited to a singular cultural experience.

Thanks & regards,
-viplav-

[vnagarjuna]

Mea Culpa! My intention was to say the 18th century and I fat fingered
it. My understanding is that the Nizam gave up his rights to the
Circars in 1766 (recognizing the grant the Moghal Emperor gave to
Clive a year before). Is that wrong?

Thanks,
nagarjun



--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, Sreenivas Paruchuri <sreeni@g...>
wrote:

[lylayer]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, Viplav Reddy <viplavreddy@g...>
wrote:

> Consider Microsoft & Apple cultures --- they are different, under the
> same software umbrella -- their programming language could be same.

> How can we confuse their language they use to write programs, with
> their cultures?
>

I got married when i was seventeen. I married a man who is of same
caste and religion. We spoke the same language which is telugu. We
were born in the same district, and the dialect was same. There was
friendship between the family heads too. Their family in fact was
living next door. Yet when i moved from my father's house to theirs, I
was like a fish out of a pond. There was not one thing they were
saying that i could understand. There was not one book we had in
common. When i heard bharata and ramayana from my grand father they
were super. Even the same ramayana and bharata, if I heard them in my
husband's house they sounded absolutely rotten. All their rituals
appeared barbaric to me. And their jokes! O my God! their jokes. For
all purposes they were from a different planet.

This is the biggest cultural shock I ever experienced. To this day I
could not cross this particular chasm.

Every thing else is a cake walk, comparitively.

lyla.

[Satyanarayana Pamarty]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, SrI "Srinivas Nagulapalli" gAru
<srini_nagul@y...> wrote:

-----

> > [snip]
> >"Fine. Now, what is it that you see?"
> > "What the heck, I see nothing!"
> > "That my son, is what you are! తత్ త్వం అసీ
>
> ఉద్దాలక వృత్తాంతం బాగుంది. A small correction.
> I heard different variation, but even so, శ్వేటకేతు
> never said he saw "nothing"! "Nothing" and nihilism, is
> Buddhistic philosophy శూన్య వాదం.

...
...

> Anyway, the
> take away point for me was తత్ త్వం అసి does not direct at
> "nothing" , but definitely something!

----

నమస్కారం శ్రీనివాసు గారు

Oops! In my version, though శ్వేతకేతు said he SAW "nothing", he
didn't say there WAS "nothing". Isn't there a lot of difference
between the two?* :-)

The above story is from the ఛాందోగ్యోపనిషద్. I used contemporary
language to re-narrate it. However, in this book, though it does not
go exactly as I said it, I think it is still closer to my version. :-)

Here is a more authentic version:

*****
<quote begins>"Bring a fig from over there."
"Here it is, sir."
"Divide it."
"It is divided, sir."
"What do you see there?"
"These rather small seeds, sir."
"Divide one."
"It is divided, sir."
"What do you see?"
"Nothing, sir."

"Dear boy," he said to him, "that finest essence which you do not
perceive, from this very essence, dear boy, that great fig tree arises.

Believe me, dear boy, that which is the finest essence, the whole
universe has That as its soul. That is Reality, That is the Self, and
That is you, Svetaketu!" <quote ends>
*****

Something you don't see might still exist. Like the air, for example.
Air is a good example, but not mine. :-)

----

> To reminisce ఉద్దాలక again, if that అద్వితీయం One itself,

> can split itself/himself/herself...
----

Not split, but (I think) coalesce... :-) Oh well. Both are the same in
a way.

----
> ... into so many variegated universes

> with so many names and forms, what is there to be dawned for us!?

----

What has to dawn on us is that we are all made up of the same
fundamental unit that pervades the universe and that there is no basic
difference in all of us after all. If that happens, we will hopefully
stop drawing lines wherever our hat falls (and also stop swearing by
those lines!) and start thinking of ourselves as happy citizens of the
universe. :-)

Thanks and best wishes

Satya

*Funnily, "SAW" and "WAS" are two words when reversed become the other.

[Bhaskar T.L.S.]

Over the last few days, the item on Telugudanam is an example how a
thread can go like a wave...and how a thread can lead to differnet
things due to varying perceptions...

Is the thread about?

- equating andhra and telangana cultures as one and the same?
- telugu culture treated as a combination of andhra, raa'ma, and
telangana cultureS?
- defining Telugu identity?
- differentiating language and culture as two seperate aspects...
- influence of nizam on telugu culture
- whether terms like telugu are used socio-culturally or geographically?

and many---

Although its inviting to have many perceptions, we lost track of what
we are discussing...

***

Anyway, the word andhra is widely used by Telugus in the old diaspora
(colonial). We see even now

Mauritius Andhra Maha Sabha--1940s
Malaysia Andhra Sanghamu (now Telugu Association of Malaysia)--1955
Dakshina India Andhra Saghamu (Fiji)--1941
Andhra Maha Sabha in South Africa

Most (I can say 85%, at least with Mauritius and Malaysia)of the
Telugus who left to above colonies are from Presidency of Madras, and
very few from Nizam's rule.

***

[sree...@ghantasala.info]

"Viplav Reddy" <viplavreddy@...> wrote:

>> Combining culture with a language is not just confusing, it is
>> incorrect.

> There can be Telugu speakers who are not Telugus.

> CP Brown or David Shulman do not belong to Telugu Culture even as they
> might know Telugu as a language better than many of their contemporary
> pundits in Telugu.

Viplav garu, in your opinion, does Telugudanam refer to Telugu-Language or
Telugu-Culture? To me, it reasonably applies only to Telugu-C. So the above,
true or not, is a "straw man", and quite secondary to the question of defining
what is Telugudanam.

Clearly there are differences in Telugu-L between different regions of AP. Even
an uneducated ear can hear them. If we can agree on a definition of Telugu-C,
there are probably some differences and some similarities between different
regions as well?

I like the operational definition Lyla garu was getting at. While we may not be
able to define Telugu-C, its boundary is crossed when one feels a culture shock
i.e we can easily tell what is NOT Telugu-C; the caveat, clearly, is that this
boundary (and evidently, the center of this region) exists at different places
for each individual (like she and her husband).

- Sreenadh

[vnagarjuna]

> This is certainly an interesting perspective. Does it mean that the
Nizam's
> rule and the associated Islamic culture is a significant/dominant
part of
> the Telangana identity? Does the Nizamic influence continue to play a
> dominant role even now?

Not necessarily, but that is tangential. The consequences in terms of
social and economic development, however, are very real. The most
telling statistic in my mind is that when Telangana became part of the
Indian Union in 1948 it had about the same number(*) of high schools
as Guntur district alone. It's not difficult to work out the
implications of that.

Thanks,
nagarjuna

* - I misplaced my reference for the claim, I will post it as soon as
I locate it.

[Krishna Rao Maddipati]

On 4/14/05 3:42 PM, "Viplav Reddy" <vipla...@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20

> Language is an abstract. We write C A T to denote an animal that does
> not resemble the animal Cat in any shape or form yet we are trained to
> associate letters CAT to mean the animal. The abstract will come to
> represent the underlying understanding of communities. People had a

> culture even during those times when there was no language or when presen=
t day

> Telugu was in infancy. People will continue to develop their cultures
> independent of the Language identity.

>=20
I am afraid we are talking at two different levels here. No one can deny th=
e
abstractness of language. However, the association and interdependence
between language and culture (defined as a way of life) is undeniable.
Beyond the initial unstructured sounds, the development of language and
culture were in lockstep. భాష లేనిదే భావం లేదు, భావం లేనిదే
సంస్కృతి లేదు, సంస్కృతి లేనిదే మనుగడ లేదు. On that count, I disagree
with your assessment that people had culture without language. They have
always coexisted and progressed interdependently however rudimentary they
were or what form they took. Telugu culture as we know at any point in
history need not be and cannot be the same as in any other period. The
culture that digressed along with the development of a distinct language
called Telugu has come to be known as Telugu culture. That is clearly a
descendent of another language(s) and culture(s) combination; not created
out of thin air.
>=20

> Michael Byram, a linguist and Professor at the University of Durham
> says Teaching a Language alone, represents a narrow sense of teaching.
> It requires cultural aspect as prop to cover a wider theme, this also
> indicates they are not one and the same. That does not diminish its
> importance in anyway.

>=20
Doesn=B9t this argue that one can=B9t exist without the other? I didn=B9t s=
ay they
are one and the same. Language by itself is not the culture but cannot
exist without it and vice versa. My point was that for the most part they
are subsets of each other.
>=20

> CP Brown or David Shulman do not belong to Telugu Culture even as they
> might know Telugu as a language better than many of their contemporary
> pundits in Telugu. They can still be language experts.

Exceptions cannot be rules. How many Browns and Shulmans are there? Just th=
e
way they are not Telugus by just being experts in Telugu language, they
cannot be Telugus by just being experts in Telugu culture without knowing
Telugu (if there ever can be one). Even by knowing both itself doesn=B9t ma=
ke
them Telugu unless they incorporate them in their way of life. (I am afraid=
,
I am slowly embarking on a different territory!)

> Is there a
> Sanskrit Culture today, even as we know that Sanskrit was used as a
> tool for communication? To answer that question -- Yes, there are
> remnants of that same culture but the language as a tool disappeared.

>=20
Transformed or transmuted may be better word.
>=20

> Telugu is often confused with some culture it represents. In order
> for Telugu as a language to reach different heights it needs to be
> decoupled from the cultural aspect it came to identify with. Telugu
> literature will engage in different areas if we decouple it like I
> said.

>=20
If this is the crux of you post, then all bets are off! The discussion
should go in an entirely different line.
>=20

> A hundred years ago, we had people who knew multiple languages. Those
> who wrote in Sanskrit also knew Parsian. People wrote in Tamil and
> Kannada. That much we have straight from Prof. Velcheru. For the
> langauge to grow it needs to cover multiple cultures, and experiences
> in Science, Art, and Music regardless of their origins in relation to
> a single culture, and it will happen only if it can be delinked with
> the single culture, it is identified with.

>=20
Isn=B9t that what Tenglish is all about?
>=20

> It is healthy for both sets, culture and language to be independent of
> each other. It is more detrimental for the language if it continues
> to be limited to a singular cultural experience.

>=20
I am not sure if it is possible in the strictest sense. All you will do is
create an entirely different animal. As I said above, its an entirely
different discussion and we should change the subject line before we embark
on it.

Thanks and regards,
Krishna Rao

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[sree...@ghantasala.info]

Quoting Krishna Rao Maddipati <madd...@wayne.edu>:

> exist without it and vice versa. My point was that for the most part they
> are subsets of each other.
>

Gee, if A is a subset of B and B is a subset of A, doesn't that mean A=B??

:) Sreenadh

[Srinivas Nagulapalli]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, SrI Satyanarayana Pamarty gAru
wrote:

నమస్కారం సత్య గారు

> Oops! In my version, though శ్వేతకేతు said he SAW "nothing", he
> didn't say there WAS "nothing". Isn't there a lot of difference
> between the two?* :-)

Thanks for the clarification and I understand it better. Even so,
I do not like that version!

I think the point it is trying to make is not well supported or
poorly brought out by the sequence of question-answers. It sounds to
some degree like Physics- keep on cutting, but then when you
can't anymore, one is told to make a leap of faith unlike Physics,
that it is the essence of all. I think Physics also tells that
atomic, or better sub-atomic particles are building units of
everything. However, the distinction I found in that narration is,
that essence is not claimed as just some common building unit, but
a more loftier, uplifting and joyful/blissful thing- well may not
be a "thing". Of course this is just based on my limited
understanding.

Relating this to our Telugu culture I have some observations.

For good or bad movies are big, huge part of our today's culture.
And I just do not recall many outpourings from our intellectuals,
writers, poets, critics, editors against the trend (don't know
when it started!) of stereotyping villains and comedian roles to
use Telangana dialect, atleast not until the whole issue is
mired in politics. "Telangana dialect in Telugu cinemas" could be
a good academic Ph.D thesis topic, if some one hasn't done it!

వ్యావహారిక భాషోద్యమాన్ని ఎంతో స్ఫూర్తిమంతంగా నిర్వహించిన
గిడుగు వంటి నాయకులు, ఘనమైన చరిత్ర, ఉజ్జ్వలమైన వారసత్వం
ఉన్న మన తెలుగు సంస్కృతికి, ఒక ప్రాంతీయ యాస అందునా రాజధాని
గా ఉన్న ప్రాంతంలోని తెలుగు వ్యావహారిక భాష నిరాదరణకు కాదంటే
సాదర ప్రోత్సాహానికి నోచుకోలేదనడం నిరాధారమేమీ కాదనుకుంటాను.
హైద్రాబాదు ఆకాశవానిలో ప్రసారమయ్యే "పాడి పంట" లాంటి
రైతులనుద్దేశించే కార్యక్రమాల్లో సైతం "పెద్దయ్య, చిన్నయ్య" పాత్రలు
ఎప్పుడూ ప్రాంతీయ రైతుల వ్యావహారిక భాష ఉపయోగించక పోవడం ఒక
చిన్న ఉదాహరణ.

అయితే జనాలకు అర్థంకాని భాషను రుద్దుతున్నారా, అంటే కాదు.
అర్థమవడం వేరు ఆత్మీయమనిపించడం వేరు. శ్వాస తోటే
బతుకు లాగ, యాసలతోటే భాష అని నమ్ముతాను.

జ్ఞానపీఠ గ్రహీత, తెలుగు భాషా సంఘ (ఒకప్పటి) అధ్యక్షులు,
పెద్ద కవి, వక్త, అయిన సి.నా.రె గారు సైతం తెలుగు సినిమాలతో
ఎంతో అనుబంధం వుండి కూడా "నాది వీర తెలంగాణ, వేరు తెలంగాణ
కాదు" అన్నారే కాని, పెడత్రోవలో యాసను అభివ్యక్తం జేసే సినీ
పోకడలపై పెద్ద మనసుతో పల్లెత్తు మాట అన్నట్లు తెలియదు. ఇక వేరే
మేధావులను, రచయితలను, సంపాదుకులను అనేదేముంది.

ఇవి రాజకీయ పార్శ్వాన్ని స్పృశించకుండా తోచిన వాటిల్లో కొన్ని మాత్రమే.


Regards
-Srinivas

[Krishna Rao Maddipati]

On 4/15/05 10:43 AM, "sree...@ghantasala.info" <sree...@ghantasala.info>
wrote:
>=20

> exist without it and vice versa. My point was that for the most part they
>> > are subsets of each other.

>> >=20
>=20
> Gee, if A is a subset of B and B is a subset of A, doesn't that mean A=3D=
B??
>=20
> :) Sreenadh

The operative word is =B3for the most part=B2. What percentage ascribed to =
that
depends on individuals=B9 definition of what each is. That=B9s when the rea=
l
fights start!

Krishna Rao


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Viplav Reddy]

KR Maddipati wrote:

>భాష లేనిదే భావం లేదు, భావం లేనిదే
>సంస్కృతి లేదు, సంస్కృతి లేనిదే మనుగడ లేదు.

Incorrect. This falls under the same example of culture mixed with
emotion, getting confused with language. It is hard to argue about
mother's apple pie kind of statements, but Krishna Rao garu, you will
find several Bhaavaalu without language -- language is far too
inadequate to express anything. It falls short at many places. Many
bhaavaalu do not require language.

>The culture that digressed along with the development of a distinct language
>called Telugu has come to be known as Telugu culture.

One can formulate an equation to any absurdity. There is no such a
thing as Telugu culture. Those who believe Telugu culture covers
broader scope of people than Andhra culture are simply using Telugu as
a prop.

Bhaskar gaaru, would you please research and report on how and why the

"Malaysia Andhra Sanghamu (now Telugu Association of Malaysia)--1955"

changed its name from Andhra Sanghamu to Telugu Association?

A note to Lyla:

Please take a week off and write a hundred page novel centered around
your experience as a young bride. Do not leave out any detail,
including those jasmines that you got from your in-laws backyard and
the distribution that went on in the family or your direct
participation at any of the family functions, weddings, selection of a
sari or how you wore it, what took place in the "cultural
assimilation" process, you were getting indoctrinated with inside a
family, and why laughed and why you cried.

Limit the experience to just the first two or three years, or until a
time, where you thought was the turning point (if it was shorter than
2 years).

Almost forgot, please do write it in English. Who knows, someone I
know in Los Angeles might want to develop a script around it.

Please keeps me posted on, how it goes.

Regards,
-viplav-

[Hemantha Kumar]

To my knowledge, Nizams, in fact, tried to protect their grip on the coast and so had employed the French to fight the British and ward them off. It is much later when the French could not hold on that the Nizams sort of forced to have a treaty with the British and leased parts of the coast from Masulipatnam.

Best wishes
Hemantha Kumar

Sreenivas Paruchuri <sre...@gmx.de> wrote:
<snip>

vnagarjuna wrote:

> Nizams sold the coastal Andhra to the British in the 17th century,

Thats little too early, Nagarajuna gaaru :-)

[Hemantha Kumar]

Again with my limited knowledge it is like this. Aurangazeb had them all and had the Nizam something like a governor. But apparently Nizam could not control the place. Bhimli (Bhimunipatnam) was already in the hands of the Dutch as a lease. British felt that that place was a vantage port and wanted to have it. So they were encouraging skirmishes necessitating the Nizam to take the French help. Monsieur Raymond whose tomb is now in Musarambagh of Hyderabad was an important French Military Designate in this process.

The French had encouraged the Vizianagaram kings to build a fort and fight the British. But over a period due to lack of sustainant fights the Nizam had to concede to the British and had to part large tracts of Circars.

One more theory (as per the Vizagapatam Gazetteer) is that tracts were under the Dutch and after many skirmishes and fights the Dutch ceded lands to the British Collector Robert Boyard/Bayard (and not by the Nizam) in 1825 A.D.

Best wishes
Hemantha Kumar

vnagarjuna <vnaga...@yahoo.com> wrote:
<snip>

My understanding is that the Nizam gave up his rights to the
Circars in 1766 (recognizing the grant the Moghal Emperor gave to Clive a year before). Is that wrong?

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Hemantha Kumar]

I cannot but agree on to this. Out of my own experience, I find it to be true.

Best wishes
Hemantha Kumar

Viplav Reddy <vipla...@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

For the langauge to grow it needs to cover multiple cultures, and experiences in Science, Art, and Music regardless of their origins in relation to a single culture,....
<snip>

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Satyanarayana Pamarty]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, SrI Srinivas Nagulapalli gAru wrote:

---

> పెడత్రోవలో యాసను అభివ్యక్తం జేసే సినీ
> పోకడలపై పెద్ద మనసుతో పల్లెత్తు మాట అన్నట్లు తెలియదు. ఇక వేరే
> మేధావులను, రచయితలను, సంపాదుకులను అనేదేముంది.

---

అయ్యా

నేనూ చూసిన కొద్దో గొప్పో చలన చిత్రాలలో యీ యాసను ఈ విధంగా వాడటము
చూసి ఆశ్చర్యపోయాను. ఆ విధంగా దాని దురుపయోగాన్ని నిర్మాతలకు
అర్థమయ్యేలా వివరించి ఎవరైనా వ్యతిరేకిస్తే దీని సమస్య ఎప్పుడో తీరి
వుండేదని నా నమ్మకము. అలా జరగనందుకు నాకు ఇంకా ఆశ్చర్యంగానే ఉంది.
ఎవరినైనా వెక్కిరించే వారు (వారు ఎవరైనా) నాగరికులనిపించుకోరు.

ఇది ఇప్పుడిప్పుడే (చలన చిత్ర పరిశ్రమ హైదరాబాదుకు
తరలిననందువలనో ఏమో!) మొదలైన పీడగా నేను భావిస్తున్నాను.
మద్రాసులో ఆ పరిశ్రమ ఉన్నంతకాలమూ ఈ వెక్కిరింపులూ, కొక్కిరింపులు కాస్త
తక్కువగానే ఉండేవని నా భావన.

నాకు తెలిసిన మేరకు మద్రాసులో వున్న తెలుగు వారు మరొక భాష నీడలో
ఉన్నందువలన వారికి ఇటువంటి వెక్కిరింపుల వలన కలిగే బాధ ఎంతో
తెలుసు. కాబట్టే వారు అటువంటివి అవలంబించి ఉండక పోవచ్చు అని నా
అనుమానము. దీని కారణాలను గురించి మీరేమంటారు?

ఇక పోతే, మన ఆధ్యాత్మిక చింతనలలో భౌతిక దృక్పథాలు కాస్తంత
ఎక్కువే అనుకుంటాను. ఇలాంటివే చాలా వున్నాయి. ఇలా చర్చిస్తూ పోతే
కంకరలను సేకరించవలసి వస్తుంది కాబట్టీ, నాకు రాళ్ళూ రప్పల మీద
ఆట్టే ఆసక్తి లేదు కాబట్టీ, ఈ ప్రసంగాన్ని ఇక్కడితో ముగిస్తున్నాను. మీ
సహనానికి కృతజ్ఞుడను. :-)

నమస్కారములతో

సత్యనారాయణ

[Kamesh]

Dear Viplav,

> Language and Culture are two different boxes that happen to be
> standing next to each other. They communicate often. They are
easily
> confused because for such a long time we confused Apples and Oranges
> to mean all the same fruits -- they were clearly different: Apples &
> Oranges. A name of a language can not be confused with the culture
> that also happens to use it. Both together represent the peoples
> social dynamic at the time of measurement.

Since you agreed that Language and Culture do often communicate,
Apples and Oranges may not be a good example, since they obviously do
not communicate with each other:-)
It is hard for me to think them as two different boxes that (happen
to) stand next to each other either. For me to understand your
definition of culture better, can you give an instance (or possible
instance) where two people of the same exact culture speak (as their
primary language of communication) two different languages?

> represent the underlying understanding of communities. People had a
> culture even during those times when there was no language or when

present day

> Telugu was in infancy. People will continue to develop their
cultures
> independent of the Language identity.

Don't you think that language would also change according to the
developing (I prefer the word "changing") culture? Ofcourse, by
language, I am not refering to computer languag here.

> There are many Spanish speaking people who are not hispanics, as an
> example. There can be Telugu speakers who are not Telugus.

By Telugu "speakers", do you mean
a. the people who just know the language (how to speak, read and
write) or
b. the people whose primary language of communication is telugu?
If it is a, then it is a trivial statement. If it is b, I would like
you to define the word "Telugus" and explain your statement.

> Consider Microsoft & Apple cultures --- they are different, under
the
> same software umbrella -- their programming language could be same.

> How can we confuse their language they use to write programs, with
> their cultures?

This analogy, IMHO, is completely inappropriate and confusing.

> Telugu is often confused with some culture it represents. In order
> for Telugu as a language to reach different heights it needs to be
> decoupled from the cultural aspect it came to identify with. Telugu
> literature will engage in different areas if we decouple it like I
> said.

Here we need to define "language" clearly. Does it only consist of
words, meanings and grammer? Or does it also include the literature
(old and new, classical and folk) and all other things like
సామెతలు, పొడుపుకధలు etc.? (I am tempted to give the analogy
of Java here but would stop doing it since I do not want to violate
my own rules:-)
You seem to agree that Telugu language "represents" some culture. Can
you name it?

> It is healthy for both sets, culture and language to be independent
of
> each other. It is more detrimental for the language if it continues
> to be limited to a singular cultural experience.
>

I agree with your second statement here but not the first.
The confusion, I think, is not whether language and culture are same
or not. Language and Culture are obviously different, but are not
independent.
The main confusion is whether we can use the word "telugu" to
represent a culture too, apart from being the name of a language. I
believe that it has been used for a long time that way (but then
there might not have been much difference between the language and
culture earlier). Considering the current scenario where we clearly
have people of different cultures speaking the same language telugu,
it might be better to restrict that usage to language alone. But then
we face with the bigger task of finding a name for the culture which
has been represented by the word "telugu" till now.
And the bigger confusion, I think, is with the word "Andhra", which I
do not want to lay my foot into(atleast for now:-).
But at the end, aren't we all just arguing about mere vocabulary?

regards,
Kameswara Rao.

[Krishna Rao Maddipati]

On 4/15/05 1:34 PM, "Viplav Reddy" <vipla...@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20

>> >భాష లేనిదే భావం లేదు, భావం లేనిదే
>> >సంస్కృతి లేదు, సంస్కృతి లేనిదే మనుగడ లేదు.

>=20

> Incorrect. This falls under the same example of culture mixed with
> emotion, getting confused with language. It is hard to argue about
> mother's apple pie kind of statements, but Krishna Rao garu, you will
> find several Bhaavaalu without language -- language is far too
> inadequate to express anything. It falls short at many places. Many
> bhaavaalu do not require language.

>=20
Not, unless you are talking about nascent perception by the senses (almost
at the level of physiological processes). Even plants and animals have them=
.
But భావం is formulated and synthesized from those sense perceptions
with the aid of language.
>=20
>> >The culture that digressed along with the development of a distinct lan=

guage
>> >called Telugu has come to be known as Telugu culture.

>=20

> One can formulate an equation to any absurdity. There is no such a
> thing as Telugu culture. Those who believe Telugu culture covers
> broader scope of people than Andhra culture are simply using Telugu as
> a prop.

>=20
This reminds me of an article by Mr. Madugula Nagaphanisarma in TANA patrik=
a
back in the early 90s where he argued that the term =8Chindu=B9 should not =
be
used to describe Indians because the meaning for this term in Persian (I
don=B9t remember if he exactly used Persian or Arabic or some other middle
eastern language) was given as =8Ckaafir=B9. Just because someone equated
Telugu culture only to Andhra (I presume you were using this term for the
Circar districts) culture, you don=B9t question its very existence. To me
Telugu culture is the culture of Telugu speaking people in all its variants=
.
Even if there is only 10% commonality among all the variants combined, so b=
e
it. I enjoy each subset with equal passion.

Krishna Rao

P.S. I think the road ends here for me.=20

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Srinivas Nagulapalli]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, SrI Satyanarayana Pamarty gAru
wrote:

> నాకు తెలిసిన మేరకు మద్రాసులో వున్న తెలుగు వారు మరొక భాష నీడలో
> ఉన్నందువలన వారికి ఇటువంటి వెక్కిరింపుల వలన కలిగే బాధ ఎంతో
> తెలుసు. కాబట్టే వారు అటువంటివి అవలంబించి ఉండక పోవచ్చు అని నా
> అనుమానము. దీని కారణాలను గురించి మీరేమంటారు?
>

నమస్కారం సత్య గారు

మీరన్న దానికి ఒప్పుకుంటాను. అయితే కారణాలేవైనా ఉన్న గొడవంతా
మనకు పరిణామాల దగ్గరే కదా. పోతే ఇది అంత సులభంగా తీరే సమస్య
కాదనే అనుకుంటున్నాను. ఎందుకంటారా?

సినిమాలు తీసే వాళ్ళు చూసేవాళ్ళున్నారు కాబట్టే తీస్తున్నామంటారు- వాళ్ళదేం
పోయింది, ఉత్త వ్యాపారమే కదా. మరి చూసేవాళ్ళు సంతోషంగానే
చూస్తున్నారంటే పుండు మీది కారం చల్లి నట్లుంటుంది, మొదలే దీనికి
చింతిస్తున్నవాళ్ళకు. సరే ఇది ఏదో సినిమా గొడవ అనుకుందామనుకుంటే
ఆకాశవాణి పరిస్థితో అదొక మాయ. ఏవో పాలసీల పేర్లు పెట్టుకుని
ప్రాంతీయులను వాయగొడుతుంటారు. మళ్ళీ దాని డైరక్టర్లంతా చదువుకున్న
వాళ్ళు, పెద్ద పేరున్నోళ్ళు.

జనాలకు దగ్గరకాని భాషకు, జనాలు మాత్రం ఎందుకు దగ్గరవ్వాలి
అనే ప్రశ్న పుట్టక తప్పదు. రాష్త్రాన్ని చీల్చుదామనే ఉద్యమం
రానంతవరకు, ఆ ఆలోచనకు ఊపిరి పోసి పెంచే కారణాలు-
ఆర్థిక, సామాజిక, సాంఘిక, మైనవేవీ నాయకులకు కానరాకపోవడం
విచారకరం. ఆకలి చావులతో, వర్గ పోట్లాటలతో నెత్తురోడిన రాయలసీమ
గళం విప్పి రేపు తన గతేమిటని నిలదీసే వరకూ దాని గోడు కుడా
వినేవారు లేరన్నది నిష్ఠుర సత్యం. కలిసి ఉండి పొందే ఈ కష్టాల
కన్నా విడిపోయి ఏదో వెలగబెడతామని నూరుపోసే నాయకుల మాటలు
గత్యంతరం లేక అలసి పోయిన ప్రజల్లో దొంగ మాటలవలె గాక
దూరపు కొండలవలె బాగానే ఉంటాయన్నది కూడా సులభంగా ఊహించుకోగల
విషయమే.

ఏది ఏమైనా ఇటువంటి బలమైన విషబీజాలను దర్శించి నివారించే
దూరదృష్టి లేని నాయకులు, పరిస్థితులు అదుపు తప్పక ముందే విమర్శించి
సరిదిద్దే బాధ్యత గలిగీ వెన్నెముక లేని మేధావులు, ఎక్కువగా
మనకున్నంత వరకూ స్పర్థలకూ, మనస్పర్థలకూ, కష్టాలకు,
కార్పణ్యాలకూ తక్కువేమీ ఉండవని అనుకుంటాను.

విధేయుడు

-Srinivas

[lylayer]

ఆమె.
ఒక విద్యుత్తరంగము
చేతబట్టగ లేరు
ఒక విహ్వల విహంగము
చెరబెట్టగ లేరు
ఒక విచిత్ర వివాహిత
చెట్టబట్టగ లేరు
ఒక విషణ్ణ విరహిణి
చేరదీయగ లేరు
విస్త్రుత విద్యా విశారద
చెలిని చేయగ లేరు
ఆమె ముద్దుల మోము, మేని
మిసమిసలు, మేటి మందహాసములు
మధుర భాష్యములు
మారుచుండును మరల మరల, నొక్క
రీతిగ నుండ వొక్క రోజైన
తొలగించ దేనాడు తన మేలిముసుగు
ఎరుగరామె పూర్ణ సౌందర్య మెవ్వరు
లభించదెన్నటికామె పరిష్వంగము
లభించదెవ్వరికామె సత్సంగమము.
కర్పురము వోలె నామె కరగి పోవు
కాలగర్భాన నొకనాడు కలసి పోవు.


lyla.

[Hemantha Kumar Pamarthy]

I too opine similarly.

Best wishes
Hemantha Kumar

On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 Krishna Rao Maddipati wrote :
>snip<
>To me Telugu culture is the culture of Telugu speaking people in all its variants. Even if there is only 10% commonality among all the variants combined, so be it. I enjoy each subset with equal passion.

[lylayer]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, Krishna Rao Maddipati=20

<maddipati@w...> wrote:

you don=B9t question its very existence. To me

> Telugu culture is the culture of Telugu speaking people in all its=20
variants.
> Even if there is only 10% commonality among all the variants=20
combined, so be

> it. I enjoy each subset with equal passion.

Agree. Me too.
While the commonality loosely binds it together, it is the variety=20
that gives it the elasticity, the freedom to breath and the energy=20
to thrive, to grow in many directions, in different lands, taking=20
new shapes and forms .=20

> Krishna Rao
> P.S. I think the road ends here for me.=20

Took a good road. Don't mind being there myself.

regards
lyla.

[Viplav Reddy]

<this is the end of my longish notes, my apologies.>

Kamesh wrote:

>definition of culture better, can you give an instance (or possible
>instance) where two people of the same exact culture speak (as their
>primary language of communication) two different languages?

Since you are staring with definition of culture, in my opinion as I
already said, it has nothing to do with language.

If you wish to see unity in diversity, వసుధైక కుటుంబం is
already there, nothing new there. Invite an outsider (a Japanese or a
European or an American) and show them Telugu, Tamil, Kannda movies --
for them, all of those look the same. For that matter, if you watched
Tamil and Malayalam movies as often as I used to, without regard to
language, they were all the same --

There is great unity among these cultures, not just ten percent but
even a greater level of comfort. It is comforting to be under the
blanket of unity and forget real issues & even identities.

The message about diversity and the need to acknowledge such diversity
is to those who want to seek the sense of wonder and identity.

I happen to study the slums of Ahmedabad as well as those on Musi Bank
(Gujarati & Telugu speakers respectively) -- We took crayons and
colored different cultures that lived on the same parcel of land, most
parcels even had same survey numbers. (community wise differences)

If you are a newbie to Hyderabad like one of the members of Telusa
(the earlier Ra.Ba) who recalled his learning of Kite Flying in
Hyderabad as he moved to the more familiar places where other coastal
people settled in colonies. I imagine the experience he had was
priceless, it would be like visiting a different country. (Regional /
urban-rural differences)

That would be 'the wonder' in the eyes of a teenager visiting a
different conscious, it is the same coming from rural to urban
culture, more of a place related. To change it with a public policy of
a Government is nothing short of social engineering comparable to ones
attempted by any of the mad regimes in the history.

Any caste or even Brahmin culture was exceptionally different from any
of the other castes. Those may be caste lines or occupational
contours. Brahmin cultures cut across the language across South India
(they have more in common with brahmins speaking different languages
than others who lived just a few yards from their homes) -- (Caste
wise differences).

Can we do some time traveling? Language has been Telugu for the past
fifty years in villages of Andhra. Has the culture remained the same?
A minor event such as opening of a bank or a liquor shop in a
community would change the perception of a community and culture.
(Temporal)

Prior to Dravida Movement and before 1940s, there were places for
washing and waiting in present day Chennai marked for "Brahmins" and
"everyone else". That is a cultural experience -- social customs and
changes that come with time, are an integral part of the culture.
They have nothing to do with language either.

Many people speak same language or to borrow the words of Maddipati,
ten percent commonality -- which finger did you show when you had to
go visit bathroom in elementary grades? (a kid in karnaTaka vs the
same in Tamilnadu?) -- such commonalities can not be used to define
culture. To use language as means gets down to that level of
absurdity.

The point I wanted to drive home was this: Even if there is a ninety
percent common features, my contention is that more advanced societies
acknowledge and value that ten percent remaining differences. How a
minority experience is treated, is the current measure for human
advancement. The acknowlegement can not be mere lip service -- but in
actual deeds and words. Changing the charter will not change the
character of the group but that is a beginning. I do perceive this
group Ra. Ba. to be more of an Andhra Culture Group.

Language is used to create a new frontier in South Indian context and
I am not sure in the phrase "Telugu Culture" refers to "telugu"
anymore, in any context.

Thanks & Regards,
-viplav-

[Hemantha Kumar Pamarthy]

This has nothing to do with the thread now in vogue and may also not be as =
per RB charter. My excuses.=20

But just my trivia.=20

When compared to Tamil movies, Malayalam movies have more of nativity in th=
em. Apart from being "Arty" even many of the commercial movies are well mad=
e in Malayalam.

Best wishes
Hemantha Kumar =A0

On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 Viplav Reddy wrote :
>
<snip>

For that matter, if you watched
>Tamil and Malayalam movies as often as I used to, without regard to
>language, they were all the same --

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Srinivas Nagulapalli]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, SrI Viplav Reddy gAru wrote:

> Brahmin cultures cut across the language across South India
> (they have more in common with brahmins speaking different languages
> than others who lived just a few yards from their homes) -- (Caste
> wise differences).

I know zilch about those cultures but it is true there seems
to be a common thread unifying any culture of any part of India.
And even though it is frequently associated with Hinduism,
notwithstanding the fact that the very word "religion" is a
a borrowed concept. That common thread is Indian philosophy - which
"spirituality" articulates better than "religion" or "caste".
That philosophy echoes in every language and culture in India. Also
that philosophy is too sublime to be subjugated by Hinduism alone,
but transcends external symbols, castes and even rituals.

> The point I wanted to drive home was this: Even if there is a
> ninety percent common features, my contention is that more advanced
> societies acknowledge and value that ten percent remaining
> differences. How a minority experience is treated, is the current
> measure for human advancement. The acknowlegement can not be mere
> lip service -- but in actual deeds and words. Changing the charter
> will not change the character of the group but that is a
> beginning. I do perceive this group Ra. Ba. to be more of an
> Andhra Culture Group.

Poor, innocent "Andhra" word whose original meaning was so
different! As said in Maayabazaar, ఎవరూ పుట్టించకపోతే పదాలెలా
పుడుతాయి. PendyAla might now say ఎవరూ పుట్టించకపోతే అర్థాలేలా
పుడుతాయి. That word has become ugly, dirty and mired in politics,
and has come to represent a linguistic domination and/or better
hegemony over any or all dialects is a mere statement of things
that exist.

Our so called learned pundits seem to have done (may do even now!)
much greater harm with their insensitivity, looking down and
contempt for dialects than even our politicians. Our politicians
are atleast more in touch with reality than our academicians
and highly educated and greatly revered scholars and pundits. The
mere naming of a party as తెలుగు దేశం and not అంధ్ర దేశం
in a state called Andhra Pradesh is a small testimony to it.
And who forgot the popular slogans తెలుగు ఆడపడుచులు,
తెలుగు వారి ఆత్మాభినాం and NOT ఆంధ్ర ఆడుపడుచులు, ఆంధ్ర
ఆత్మాభినాం?? That is enough to drive the fatal nail into any
delusions about equating ఆంధ్ర to తెలుగు today, in my
understanding.

And regarding "Telugu Culture" in RB charter, I second
Sreenadh and the onus of defining what exactly it is, is on
moderators themselves. And if members would like to pitch in,
by the same coin, members' opinions should be taken in to change it
also, and not academics. Why? Unfortunately, and even tragically,
academics for Telugu has been (may be now! too) part of the
problem and not solution!

By the way does any one know which brilliant and idiotic scholars
helped APSRTC(Andhra Pradhesh State Road Transport Corporation)
guide and paint Telugu numerals on their buses in Hyderabad?
I studied in Hyd with first language as Telugu and no where was
I taught them nor were they listed in any of my then Telugu
text books. Last year when I checked few textbooks used for
beginners, none of them explained those numerals either. But that
did not deter the enthusiastic, learned idiots to go ahead and
paint those Telugu numerals on buses. Thank God they also have
English equivalents!

Regards
-Srinivas

[Sreenivas Paruchuri]

Srinivas Nagulapalli wrote:

> By the way does any one know which brilliant and idiotic scholars
> helped APSRTC(Andhra Pradhesh State Road Transport Corporation)
> guide and paint Telugu numerals on their buses in Hyderabad?

తెలుగు అధికార భాషా సంఘం under the chairmanship of మాడుగుల
నాగఫణిశర్మ.

Regards,
Sreenivas

[Kiran Kumar Chava]

>
> By the way does any one know which brilliant and idiotic scholars
> helped APSRTC(Andhra Pradhesh State Road Transport Corporation)
> guide and paint Telugu numerals on their buses in Hyderabad?
> I studied in Hyd with first language as Telugu and no where was
> I taught them nor were they listed in any of my then Telugu
> text books. Last year when I checked few textbooks used for
> beginners, none of them explained those numerals either. But that
> did not deter the enthusiastic, learned idiots to go ahead and
> paint those Telugu numerals on buses. Thank God they also have
> English equivalents!
>

If I remember correctly, this was done when ParucUri was head of
"telugu baashaa saMGaM". I remember now seeing these numarals in one
of the telugu medium maths books explaining these are numarals, don't
remember exactly which class books.

Kiran
http://chavakiran.blogspot.com
naa sOdi

[Satyanarayana Pamarty]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, SrI Srinivas Nagulapalli gAru

<srini_nagul@y...> wrote:

----

> That word has become ugly, dirty and mired in politics,
> and has come to represent a linguistic domination and/or better
> hegemony over any or all dialects is a mere statement of things
> that exist.

----

Dear SrInivAs^ gAru:

I don't understand this at all. Frankly, how can any dialect dominate
another? Do you mean to say that the other dialects are recessive and
weak? If so, what is the yardstick with which this has been
determined? Is there any data available to prove this statement? That
is, is there really such a domination? Or is it simply an exaggerated
emotional outpour unsubstantiated by scientific method? Has any real
research gone into such claims? It would be interesting to know of
these things.

And what are the consequences of such a domination if it does exist?
Is some dialect being not allowed to be read or spoken? How is this
being achieved? That is, if someone tries to speak in it or write in
it, what is happening? Are they being punished in some way? I would
like to understand. What is the remedy to any consequences if they are
real?

If someone is not taking a movie in any dialect, what is the reason?
Does it not make any business sense to take such a movie? Why? Are
there not enough people to support it by watching the movie? Are there
not enough people to support such movie making? What is it?

If one says that telugu text books do not contain any particular
dialect, I think it is because of this. No dialect was ever used to
write in telugu till recently I think. For a long time, the written
telugu and spoken telugu were different. Weren't they? Written telugu
was fairly the same for all regions irrespective of the telugu that
was spoken. This difference in spoken and written telugu was unique to
our language.

tamiL used written tamiL for speech also. There were no two languages
as far as I know.

Just because one dialect stayed closer to the written telugu (because
of its relative insulation from other influences), we cannot call the
usage of written telugu as hegemony. I am sure you will correct me if
I am wrong.

Even if it were thought to be hegemony, we should be seeking ways and
means of remedying it. We don't promote any language by bringing
another down. Two languages can coexist in harmony even in a single
individual.

I learnt a few languages and keep learning them on the fly. That
doesn't cause any discomfort to me. I have always found knowing
different languages an advantage. I am sure you will agree that it is
the same in your case too.

If knowing more languages is good, and if learning more langues is not
difficult, what's the problem all about? People who learn more
languages do better at everything, don't they?

While the others around me in Madras were cribbing about imposition of
Hindi through TV and radio, I coolly took it as a boon and learnt
hindi. I don't need to crib about imposition now because I happen to
understand that language and enjoy stuff in it. I have now a choice also.

Learning hindi did not make me lose the decent proficiency I had in
other languages. I don't understand how one language will interfere
with another language or how one dominates another. Beats me! Any help
here?

----

> But that
> did not deter the enthusiastic, learned idiots to go ahead and
> paint those Telugu numerals on buses. Thank God they also have
> English equivalents!

----

"Idiots" is a strong word SrInivAsu gAru.

The telugu numerals are not too hard to learn. They are after all only
10 symbols. Like it or not, the world uses Indian numerals and I think
we should proudly use our own numerals wherever we can. Again, knowing
two sets of symbols doesn't cause any brain to melt down.

If someone doesn't know these numbers, and they are not in the books
that teach alphabet, I would expect that this would be brought to the
notice of someone in the textbook society or some such place.

May be people who are not enthusiastic or who are not learned idiots
man responsible positions in the establishment that brings out books. :-)

I learnt these numerals in a book that contained tables (ఎక్కాల
పుస్తకం) and other stuff when I was a kid. I thought those books
still existed. May be they don't.

That goes to speak volumes about the pathetic apathy of our people who
believe that whatever that is western is wonderful and anything Indian
needs to be pooh poohed and doesn't deserve to be patronised. If this
trend continues, a day will surely come when we will condemn and make
fun of things without even knowing what we are talking about. Or has
that day arrived already? I have no doubt here, but would like to hear
other opinions.

Thanks and best wishes

Satya

[Kiran Kumar Chava]

On 4/17/05, Satyanarayana Pamarty <pam...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> --- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, SrI Srinivas Nagulapalli gAru
> <srini_nagul@y...> wrote:
>
>I don't understand how one language will interfere
>with another language or how one dominates another. Beats me! Any help
>here?

Here are few examples how a languae dominates another
1. If I go to a doctor and if I know only "Telugu" there is no way I
can understand what is written for me. There is no way I can
understand which tablets and when to take them other than depending
upon my memory and the explanation of merficul compounder.

2. If I buy some pestisides పురుగు మందులు for my farm, there is no
way I can read and understand about how to use it, if I know only
"telugu", other than depending upon merciful salesman/neighbour. Even
the precautions, first aid if consumed everything is written over it I
know. But if I know only "Telugu" there is no way I can understand it.

3. If I go to trinetra/foodworld I have to request him to tell me the
amount in "Telugu" instead of default "English", if I know only
"Telugu". (This happens daily to my mother, ofcourse she enjoys to
demand for "Telugu".)

4. There is noway I can know what is కందిపప్పు, పెసర పప్పు, if
I don't know "English" or some good knowledge of it, if I go to
foodworld /trinetra.

5. There is no way I can read the nameplates of Telugu people infront
of their houses, if I don't know "Telugu", in Hyderabad. (other places
I observed people writing in both the languages)

6. There is no way I can fill a form in Telugu in andhra bank / Indian
Railway reservation/ APSRTC, I have to request somebody who can write
for me in Telugu.

So tell me how many examples you want for one language to dominating other!
You name it, we give it!!

టెలుగు ఒక సంపూర్ణమైన బాష, తెలుగు తల్లి సహస్ర శీర్షాలతో,
సహస్ర బాహువులతో వెలిగిపోతూ తన బిడ్డలకి అన్ని అవసరాలు
తీర్చగలదు, కానీ పాపం ఆ బిడ్డలే ఒక్కొక్క తలని, ఒక్కొక్క చేతిని
నరికివేస్తూ హింసిస్తూ చావుకి దగ్గిర చేస్తున్నారు, హత విధీ, ఏ
నారాయణుడు వస్తాడో కదా ఆమె ని కాపాడటానికి


విధేయుడు

Kiran Kumar Chava
http://telugubloggers.blogspot.com
http://chavakiran.blogspot.com
ps: అన్ని రామారావు గారి డైలాగులు చెప్పినారు కానీ ఆరుకోట్ల
ఆంధ్రులారా అనే డైలాగు కావాలనే మచిపొయినట్లున్నారు,

[Krishna Rao Maddipati]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, Viplav Reddy <viplavreddy@g...> wrote:
> The point I wanted to drive home was this: Even if there is a ninety
> percent common features, my contention is that more advanced societies
> acknowledge and value that ten percent remaining differences. How a
> minority experience is treated, is the current measure for human
> advancement. The acknowlegement can not be mere lip service -- but in

I couldn't agree with you more.

> actual deeds and words. Changing the charter will not change the
> character of the group but that is a beginning. I do perceive this
> group Ra. Ba. to be more of an Andhra Culture Group.

Unfortunately, perceptions are realities until proven otherwise. It is possible that majority
of racchabandits are from the circar region. However, I seriously doubt if it is by design.
Why are cultures specific to other regions not discussed as frequently? I am sure there are
members from all areas. If members who are familiar with a certain regional culture don't
bring up the discussions, who else can? I think there is a necessity for proactive passion to
enlighten others of what their experiences are. If they are not respected or belittled, then
and only then the true colors of the group can be judged.

Krishna Rao

[lylayer]

>
> And regarding "Telugu Culture" in RB charter, I second
> Sreenadh and the onus of defining what exactly it is, is on
> moderators themselves.

:-)
reminded of hilarious Pink Panther movies- remember the bank robbery
scene, and the blind man sitting in front of the bank who is part of
the robbery operation and hence misleads the police?

Our good friend Inspector Clousaeau ( Peter Sellers ) is asked by
his chief, chief inspector Drefus.
'How do you know the robbers ran this way?'
'the blind man sitting in front of the bank told me so.'
'How do you know that the man is blind.?'
Clousaeau draws himself to full height and says because 'the blind man
told me so.'

You want rb moderators to define telugu culture for you! Would you be
willing to make adjustments to your own understanding based on their
definitions?

Is it not this premise that Afsar is exploring or trying to voice?
That people who are in charge of cultural (any) organisations, groups,
committees knowingly or unknowingly can control/modulate culture?

Besides, :-) rb has already written off discussions about caste,
religion, politics except as part of history of telugu culture,
because rb is of the opinion that such discussions have incendiary
potential.

If you put such a burden as defining telugu culture on rb,
they may just decide to discuss 'telugu culture' also as part of
history and say -let us not discuss about current telugu culture
because of its igniting potential.:-)

Not a problem for me though. Can live with that. I am already
comfortable with singing అహో! ఆంధ్ర భోజా! శ్రీ క్రిష్న దేవ రాయా!
విజయ నగర సామ్రాజ్య నిర్మాణ తేజో విరాజా! ఈ శిధిలాలలో చిరంజీవి
వైనావయా ! as i am washing my dishes in the kitchen sink.

cheers
lyla.

[Srinivas Nagulapalli]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, Sri Satyanarayana Pamarty gAru
wrote:

> > That word has become ugly, dirty and mired in politics,
> > and has come to represent a linguistic domination and/or better
> > hegemony over any or all dialects is a mere statement of things
> > that exist.
>

> Frankly, how can any dialect dominate another? Do you mean to say
> that the other dialects are recessive and weak?

Dear Satya gAru:
I said that word has come to represent hegemony over any or ALL
dialects, not merely specially chosen one.

Regarding how any dialect can dominate another, there are many
reasons. Official patronage, intelligentsia's bias and
insensitivity, economic superiority of the spoken dialect etc.,
are just few reasons. No, I do not mean other dialects are
recessive and weak. Long suppressed ones are still striving to
find their voice and utterance the best way they can and that
indeed is part of the issue.

> And what are the consequences of such a domination if it does exist?
> Is some dialect being not allowed to be read or spoken? How is this
> being achieved? That is, if someone tries to speak in it or write in
> it, what is happening? Are they being punished in some way? I would
> like to understand.

Consequences are in one word- bad. Yes, Telangana dialect is not
allowed to be read or spoken, (atleast till few years ago when
I checked, don't know if it is still true), in Akashvaani AIR Hyd,
or Doordarshan even for farmer-oriented programmes, as I ranted
in a previous post. No there is no punishment for speaking or
reading in public mass media. Why? Because they have been (is it
still so after being politicised, I don't know!) simply prevented
from doing so.

> What is the remedy to any consequences if they are real?

The issue is as real as it can get. Only remedy I know is stop doing
it.

> If someone is not taking a movie in any dialect, what is the reason?
> Does it not make any business sense to take such a movie? Why? Are
> there not enough people to support it by watching the movie? Are
> there not enough people to support such movie making? What is it?

Not making movies in a dialect has never been any issue. But
making a dialect the butt of ridicule, and target of poor and
villanous characterization burns. The very fact that there is no
outrage even from intelligentsia, journalists, educationists,
film critics and editors adds insult to injury.

Just for the record, have you noticed in this small forum of 400+
people, that boasts of many erudite, knowledgeable persons, poets,
journalists, scholars, editors, publishers and organizers of many
organizations, publications and web sites, there has been NOT once,
voice was raised for such a thing? And how many editorials or
articles came in AP itself chiding such pernicious portrayals? It
isn't because it wasn't noticed. (Even if I missed an odd outrage,
how inconspicuously and infrequently is anyones guess).
గోటితో పోయేదానికి గొడ్డలితో నరుక్కోవడం అంటే ఇదేనేమో

Except for this, there have been no dearth of discussions about
all possible trivia related to which actor/actresses entered filmdom
when and in which movie and all of the associated glorious and
excruciating details- here, and on many groups, forums and web
sites. More on Tenglish and vulgarity in films too, but what
about this one? It is not easy to speak bitter truth. One has
to suffer the bitterness in ones mouth before uttering it.

> If one says that telugu text books do not contain any particular
> dialect, I think it is because of this. No dialect was ever used to
> write in telugu till recently I think. For a long time, the written
> telugu and spoken telugu were different. Weren't they? Written
> telugu was fairly the same for all regions irrespective of the
> telugu that was spoken. This difference in spoken and written
> telugu was unique to our language.

Regarding academics, the situation is worse than pathetic. Just a
small example. Buffalo used to be depicted (again I don't know
if it changed for better, now!) as గేదె. And kid has to ask
what the heck it is, as it looks like బర్రె and teacher used to
say yes, it is బర్రె but according to standard text it should
be called గేదె. Who the heck defined those standards to poison
an impressionable kid's mind with translating his own words with
some other one??

Alright, we have different versions for same thing in various
dialects. So far so good. Doesn't it mean our academicians or
the తెలుగు భాషా సంఘం come up with usable dictionary that
celebrates the diversity by detailing the various usages??
It is a disgrace that we don't have a single usable, uptodate,
dialect-aware, dictionary to assist students. I am talking about
Telugu-Telugu translations itself. Yes, I know we have
శబ్దరత్నాకరము, సూర్యరాయాంధ్ర నిఘంటువు. They are indeed very
appropriately named. శబ్దరత్నాకరం, నిజంగా రత్నాకరమే. రత్నాలు
చాలానే ఉన్నాయందులో. ఎటొచ్చీ దాన్ని అర్థం చేసుకోవడానికి ఆ
రత్నాకరం(సముద్రం) లో దూకి, ఈది, వెతకి పట్టుకునేంత శక్తి,
ఉత్సాహము ఉండాలి. దగ్గరై, సాయపడే నిఘంటువుల్లో చెప్పుకోవాలంటే
ఆచార్య తూమాటి దోణప్ప గారి పిల్లలకోసమని రాసిన
"బాలల శబ్దరత్నాకరం" పిల్లలకే కాదు, పెద్దలకే కాదు నాకు
తెలిసినంత వరకు మన ఘనమైన భాషకు చిన్న పుస్తకమైనా
పెద్ద దిక్కుగా కనిపిస్తుంది.

> Just because one dialect stayed closer to the written telugu
> (because of its relative insulation from other influences), we
> cannot call the usage of written telugu as hegemony.

Why not? When other dialects are utterly looked down and replaced
with the "standard" language which shows no sensitivity to the
local needs and relevance, who cares how that "standard" language
came to be what it is? If it sounds similar to a particular dialect,
smells like a particular dialect, feels like a particular dialect,
what tad distinction one should cautiously make, instead of calling
it what it is simply? And if this is not hegemony, I do not know
what else hegemony is.

> Even if it were thought to be hegemony, we should be seeking ways
> and means of remedying it. We don't promote any language by bringing
> another down. Two languages can coexist in harmony even in a single
> individual.

I do not think any one ever sought to bring anything down. Live
and let live is all the victimised, badly bruised and insulted
dialect is craving and crying for- thats all.

> I learnt a few languages and keep learning them on the fly. That
> doesn't cause any discomfort to me. I have always found knowing
> different languages an advantage. I am sure you will agree that it
> is the same in your case too.
> If knowing more languages is good, and if learning more langues is
> not difficult, what's the problem all about? People who learn more
> languages do better at everything, don't they?

I think we are concerned with language as an instrument to address
public interests and serve the targeted populace with sensitivity
and care. Not about the role of multiple languages for the growth
and good of intellectual acumen of individuals. They are different.

Like many, I work in an area where not only new words are coined
every day, but new languages are invented. It is like saying I
think it is good to write messages in XML (computer- markup geek
language) style! That way from childhood, kids will get better
grasp of how to structure and organize related entities better
when presenting the data!

Let us not go that road.

> "Idiots" is a strong word SrInivAsu gAru.

"చదువుల్నేర్చిన పండితాధముల్" అన్నాడు ఎప్పుడో ధూర్జటి. మన
దుస్థితి చూస్తే ఆయన కలం ఇంకెంత జ్వలించేదో
I am sorry for using that strong word. My limited vocabulary
did not help me to come up with better and stronger word to
express anger and agony more evocatively.

> The telugu numerals are not too hard to learn.

It is not the issue of hard or easy. It is all about usability,
sensibility and appropriateness. The poor hapless traveller of
RTC buses is so stressed with struggling to catch a bus by seeing
and decipering the dirt-covered and poorly lit nameplates. And now
they have to learn and interpret the new symbols which even
driver/conductor and I bet possibly even the Transport Minister
do not know!? We may not reduce anyone's burden, but let
us not add to it and just show some compassion.

> May be people who are not enthusiastic or who are not learned idiots
> man responsible positions in the establishment that brings out
> books. :-)

I enjoyed the dig. But when analysing public practices and policies
I am afraid this approach could obfuscate and distract us from
real issues.

With best wishes
- Srinivas

[Sreenivas Paruchuri]

Kiran Kumar Chava wrote:

> ... when ParucUri was head of "telugu baashaa saMGaM".

"was"? Then, who is the present chairman? As everyone knows these are
all political appointments. I wonder when did we last have a serious
linguist/scholar as head of
this body!

Regards,
Sreenivas

[Srinivas Nagulapalli]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, Kiran Kumar Chava

<chavakiran@g...> wrote:

> ps: అన్ని రామారావు గారి డైలాగులు చెప్పినారు కానీ ఆరుకోట్ల
> ఆంధ్రులారా అనే డైలాగు కావాలనే మచిపొయినట్లున్నారు,

కాదు. వారు ఆరు కోట్ల తెలుగువాళ్ళని కూడా చాలా సార్లు అన్నారు.

ఇంకా చెప్పాలంటే "తెలుగు బిడ్డ" అన్నారు, "నాది తెలుగు గడ్డ" అన్నారు.
"ఆంధ్ర" బిడ్డ, "ఆంధ్ర" గడ్డ కాదేం.

ఇంకా కొన్ని వివరాలు వారివి గాక మనసుకు తట్టినవి మచ్చుకి.

ఐక్యత సాధించాలనే ఉన్నతాశయంతో మన సి.నా.రె గారు రాసిన పాట
"తెలుగు జాతి మనది, నిండుగ వెలుగు జాతి మనది".
"ఆంధ్ర" జాతి కాదేం. ఉన్న మాట చెప్పాలంటే మనమంతా "ఆంధ్రులనే"
సంస్కృత భారతంలో ఉందిట. అది ఎరుగని పండితులుకాదు సి.నా.రె
అని వేరే చెప్పాలా.

విప్లవాగ్నితో దేశభక్తిని మేళవించి స్ఫూర్తిగొల్పే పాట మన
మహాకవి శ్రీ శ్రీ గారు
"తెలుగు" వీర లేవరా, దీక్ష బూని సాగరా" అని ఉర్రూతలూగించారు.
"ఆంధ్ర"వీరులు కారేం.
పద ఔచిత్యమేకాదు, ఏ పదంలో ఏ శక్తి, రక్తి ఉందో బాగా తెలిసిన,
పదాల గారడితో భాషను పండించిన సిద్ధహస్తుడు. ఏదో
యాదృచ్ఛికంగా యాద్మరిచి చెప్పిన మాటలు కాదు. ఛందస్సు శృంఖలాలు
ఫటా ఫట్ అని విశృంఖలంగా కలాన్ని జడిపించిన కవికి
ఏదో యతి ప్రాసలకోసం చేయి తిరగక అన్నది కాదు. ఆ పాటలో ఆ
పదమే ఎందుకు వాడాలో ఎంతో లోతుగానే తెలుసని ఇంకా
వివరించనవసరం లేదనుకుంటాను.

"మా తెలుగు తల్లికి మల్లె పూదండ" అని శంకరంబంచి అన్నారు.
"ఆంధ్ర" తల్లి కాదేం?

ఎన్నని జెప్పాలన్నా, తీస్తున్నాకొద్ది ఎల్తుంటయి.

జటిలమైన సమస్యను పట్టించుకోకుండా దాటవేసి పోయినోళ్ళు పోయిండ్రు.
ఉన్నోళ్ళు ఊరుకున్నరు. సగం తెలిసి సగం తెల్వని జనాలకే
ఉన్న పరేషానంతా మిగిల్చి చేతులు దులుపుకున్నరు. మన "రాత"
అదే రయితల "రాత" ఇట్లుంటే ఇక కొత్తగ చెప్పేదేముంది.

ఒక్కనాడు పుట్టిందా ఈ గోడు టక్కుమని పోతందకు. ఎంతో పెద్దోళ్ళు
పేరు మోసినోళ్ళు, మేధావులు, రచయితలు, కవులు, చానా చానా
శ్రమజేసి పండించిన సమస్య ఇది. ఉత్తగనే ఇంత పెద్దగయ్యిందా?

Regards
-Srinivas

[Sreenivas Paruchuri]

q

Srinivas Nagulapalli wrote:

> or Doordarshan even for farmer-oriented programmes, as I ranted

Were "cheekaakuLaM or ijeenagaram or toorpugOdaavari or west-Krishna or
west-Guntur or Nellore or chittoor "దీలెచ్త్స్" అల్లౌఎద్ "ఎవెన్ ఫొర్
ఫర్మెర్-ఒరిఎంతెద్ ప్రొగ్రమ్మెస్" ఒన్ ఆఈఋ-విజయవద ఒర్ విసఖపత్నం ఒర్
ఖుర్నూల్?

> విల్లనౌస్ చరచ్తెరిజతిఒన్ బుర్న్స్. ఠె వెర్య్ ఫచ్త్ థత్ థెరె ఇస్ నొ
> ఔత్రగె ఎవెన్ ఫ్రొం ఇంతెల్లిగెంత్సీ, జౌర్నలిస్త్స్, ఎదుచతిఒనిస్త్స్,
> ఫిల్ం చ్రితిచ్స్ అంద్ ఎదితొర్స్ అద్ద్స్ ఇన్సుల్త్ తొ ఇంజుర్య్.

హౌ దొ యౌ క్నౌ? హవె యౌ దొనె అ థొరౌఘ్ సుర్వెయ్? ఈ అం రథెర్ తెంప్తెద్ తొ
చల్లెంగె హౌ దిద్ యౌ చొమె తొ థిస్ చొంచ్లుసిఒన్? ఆల్సొ, అరె యౌ అచ్ఊఇంతెద్
విథ్ ఫిల్మ్స్ ఒఫ్ 1930స్ ఒర్ 40స్ ఒర్ 70స్ అంద్ 80స్; వ్హత్ దీలెచ్త్స్ వెరె ఉసెద్ తొ
'బెలిత్త్లే చెర్తైన్ సెచ్తిఒన్స్ ఒఫ్ "ఛోస్తల్/రాయలసీమ" పెఒప్లె?

> బె చల్లెద్ gEde. వ్హొ థె హెచ్క్ దెఫినెద్ థొసె స్తందర్ద్స్ తొ పొఇసొన్
> అన్ ఇంప్రెస్సిఒనబ్లె కిడ్స్ మింద్ విథ్ త్రన్స్లతింగ్ హిస్ ఔన్ వొర్ద్స్ విథ్
> సొమె ఒథెర్ ఒనె??

??!! ఈ అం చ్లుఎల్స్స్ వ్ర్త్ అబొవె ఎక్షంప్లె! ఈ విష్ యౌ చొసె అనొథెర్ ఎక్షంప్లె తొ
మకె యౌర్ పొఇంత్ (?).

> ఆల్రిఘ్త్, వె హవె దిఫ్ఫెరెంత్ వెర్సిఒన్స్ ఫొర్ సమె థింగ్ ఇన్ వరిఔస్
> దీలెచ్త్స్. శొ ఫర్ సొ గూద్. డోస్ణ్త్ ఇత్ మీన్ ఔర్ అచదెమిచీన్స్ ఒర్
> థె telugu bhaashaa saMghaM చొమె ఉప్ విథ్ ఉసబ్లె దిచ్తిఒనర్య్ థత్
> చెలెబ్రతెస్ థె దివెర్సిత్య్ బ్య్ దెతైలింగ్ థె వరిఔస్ ఉసగెస్??
> ఈత్ ఇస్ అ దిస్గ్రచె థత్ వె దొణ్త్ హవె అ సింగ్లె ఉసబ్లె, ఉప్తొదతె,
> దీలెచ్త్-అవరె, దిచ్తిఒనర్య్ తొ అస్సిస్త్ స్తుదెంత్స్. ఈ అం తల్కింగ్ అబౌత్

<<10 మొరె లినెస్ స్నిప్పెద్!>>

ఆగైన్, ఈ ఉర్గె యౌ తొ దొ సొమె రీదింగ్ ఒర్ అత్ లీస్త్ ఇన్ఫొర్ం యౌర్సెల్ఫ్ అబౌత్
థె వరిఔస్ దిచ్తిఒనరెస్ అవీల్బ్లె ఇన్ టెలుగు. ఆస్ అ మత్తెర్ ఒఫ్ ఫచ్త్ థెరె
వెరె రెఫెరెంచెస్ తొ వరిఔస్ "వ్యావహారికా భాష - పర్యాయ
పదకోశములు for various regions, professions/artisans" compiled under
the editorship of scholars like Bhadriraju Krishnamurti, Chekuri
Ramarao, Budaraju Radhakrishna et al either on this forum or on TELUSA.

> It is not the issue of hard or easy. It is all about usability,
> sensibility and appropriateness. The poor hapless traveller of
> RTC buses is so stressed with struggling to catch a bus by seeing
> and decipering the dirt-covered and poorly lit nameplates. And now
> they have to learn and interpret the new symbols which even
> driver/conductor and I bet possibly even the Transport Minister
> do not know!? We may not reduce anyone's burden, but let
> us not add to it and just show some compassion.

Again, let me be blunt ansd ask you if you ever *saw* those "number
plates" where numbers were written in 'Telugu'. If yes, then I am sure
you wouldn't haven written your entire above paragraph. Please go and
find out which numbers are written in Telugu.

Regards,
Sreenivas

[Sreenivas Paruchuri]

Satyanarayana Pamarty wrote:

> I don't understand this at all. Frankly, how can any dialect dominate
> another? Do you mean to say that the other dialects are recessive and
> weak? If so, what is the yardstick with which this has been
> determined? Is there any data available to prove this statement? That
> is, is there really such a domination? Or is it simply an exaggerated
> emotional outpour unsubstantiated by scientific method? Has any real
> research gone into such claims? It would be interesting to know of
> these things.

Let me start with my Punjabi friend's words: "in Panjab the maajhii
dialect became Modern Standard Panjabi. Because it is spoken in Lahore
and Amritsar and they had all the clout!"

Probably you are aware of this famous saying among sociolinguists: "A
language is a dialect
with an army and a navy". Hisorically speaking, at one stage of
regional/linguistic movements the proponents claim what they speak is a
"bhaasha" and not "maanDaliikam". I know Bavarians
in this country who say that they speak "Bayerisch" and not "Deutsch"
:-).

To answer your question, yes, a lot of research has gone into it. Get
any decent intro book on Sociolinguistics. You 'd be able to find a lot
of material on web itself. But, I have no links off-hand to offer except
for the following; courtesy a net-friend:

http://www2.hawaii.edu/~grace/elnpage.html

especially:

http://www2.hawaii.edu/~grace/elniv3.html

The following may be little abstract (?) stuff, but if you are
interested in linguistics, read:
Alison Wray - Formulaic language and the lexicon. Cambridge University
Press, 2002.

> was spoken. This difference in spoken and written telugu was unique to
> our language.

Not really! See in your adopted homeland. :-)

> tamiL used written tamiL for speech also. There were no two languages
> as far as I know.

Ofcourse! In fact, its widely assumed that Chinnayasoori was influenced
by the diglossia of Tamil, where one style is used for speaking and a
completely different and formal style is used for writing.

Generally, text is equated with fixedness. Well, this does not make
sense within our modern world, but I think it makes sense within our
discussion context. Scripts seem not to have been invented in order to
record fixed linguistic sequences.

You also find some answers to your questions wrt Telugu in VNR's essay:

Print and Prose - Pundits, Karanams and the East India Company in the
Making of Modern Telugu.
Published in "India's literary history - Essays on the 19th century",
Stuart Blackburn and Vasudha Dalmia (Eds), Permanent Black, 2004.

Also see: Report Submitted by the Telugu Language Committee on the Use
of Modern Standard
Telugu (Sistavyavaharika) For Teaching and Examinations For All
University
Courses. Waltair: Andhra University Press, 1973.

Regards,
Sreenivas

[Srinivas Nagulapalli]

qq

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, Sreenivas Paruchuri gAru wrote:

> Were "cheekaakuLaM or ijeenagaram or toorpugOdaavari or
> west-Krishna or west-Guntur or Nellore or chittoor "దీలెచ్త్స్"
> అల్లౌఎద్ "ఎవెన్ ఫొర్ ఫర్మెర్-ఒరిఎంతెద్ ప్రొగ్రమ్మెస్" ఒన్ ఆఈఋ-విజయవద ఒర్
> విసఖపత్నం ఒర్ ఖుర్నూల్?

ఠత్స్ వ్హ్య్ ఈ సైద్ ఇత్ మిఘ్త్ హవె ఉసుర్పెద్ అన్య్ ఒర్ అల్ల్ దీలెచ్త్స్.
శ్తిల్ల్ మ్య్ పొఇంత్ తొ మకె ఇత్ రెలెవంత్ తొ ఇంతెందెద్ ఔదిఎంచె అప్ప్లిఎస్ తొ
ఎవెన్ అబొవె రెగిఒన్స్/పొపులచె- ఇస్ణ్త్ ఇత్?

> హౌ దొ యౌ క్నౌ? హవె యౌ దొనె అ థొరౌఘ్ సుర్వెయ్? ఈ అం రథెర్
> తెంప్తెద్ తొ చల్లెంగె హౌ దిద్ యౌ చొమె తొ థిస్ చొంచ్లుసిఒన్?

షౌల్ద్ ఈ దొ అ థొరౌఘ్ సుర్వెయ్ అంద్ వ్హొ షౌల్ద్ ఈ పొల్ల్ వ్హెన్ ఈ సీ
బ్లతంత్ ప్రచ్తిచె ఒఫ్ నుమెరౌస్ పొర్త్రయల్స్ గొఇంగ్ ఉనింపెదెద్? ఈఫ్ థెరె
వెరె ఎనౌఘ్ ఔత్రగె ఫ్రొం ఇంతెల్లిగెంత్సీ, ఈ స్త్రొంగ్ల్య్ బెలిఎవె
థె సితూతిఒన్ వౌల్ద్ హవె తకెన్ ఫొర్ బెత్తెర్ తుర్న్, అస్ మెదీ స్తిల్ల్
హస్ పొతెంత్ చ్లౌత్. ఆరె యౌ ఇంప్ల్యింగ్ థెరె వస్ మొరె థన్
అదెఊతె ఒఫ్ సుచ్ వ్రితింగ్స్?

> ఆల్సొ, అరె యౌ అచ్ఊఇంతెద్ విథ్ ఫిల్మ్స్ ఒఫ్ 1930స్ ఒర్ 40స్ ఒర్ 70స్ అంద్ 80స్;
> వ్హత్ దీలెచ్త్స్ వెరె ఉసెద్ తొ 'బెలిత్త్లే చెర్తైన్ సెచ్తిఒన్స్
> ఒఫ్ "ఛోస్తల్/రాయలసీమ" పెఒప్లె?

ఫ్రయ్ హౌ థత్ ఇస్ రెలెవంత్ తొ వ్హత్ ఈ అం త్ర్యింగ్ తొ సయ్? ఝుస్త్ బెచౌసె
ఒథెర్ పెఒప్లె వెరె బెలిత్త్లెద్ ఇన్ 1930'స్, 40'స్ ఒర్ 70స్, ఒర్ ఇన్
1830'స్, 1840'స్ ఒర్ 1870'స్ తూ దిఫ్ఫెరెంత్ సెత్ ఒఫ్ పెఒప్లె మిఘ్త్ హవె
బెలిత్త్లెద్ - దోస్ ఇత్ మకె వ్హత్ ఇస్ వ్రొంగ్ అన్య్ మొరె అ రిఘ్త్? ఈత్ చౌల్ద్
ఒన్ల్య్ అద్ద్ తొ లిస్త్ ఒఫ్ సుచ్ ప్రచ్తిచెస్ బుత్ నొత్ లెస్సెన్ వ్హత్ ఇస్
చుర్రెంత్ల్య్ దొనె- ఇస్ణ్త్ ఇత్?

> ఆగైన్, ఈ ఉర్గె యౌ తొ దొ సొమె రీదింగ్ ఒర్ అత్ లీస్త్ ఇన్ఫొర్ం యౌర్సెల్ఫ్
> అబౌత్ థె వరిఔస్ దిచ్తిఒనరెస్ అవీల్బ్లె ఇన్ టెలుగు. ఆస్ అ మత్తెర్ ఒఫ్
> ఫచ్త్ థెరె వెరె రెఫెరెంచెస్ తొ వరిఔస్ "వ్యావహారికా భాష -
> పర్యాయ పదకోశములు for various regions, professions/artisans"
> compiled under the editorship of scholars like Bhadriraju
> Krishnamurti, Chekuri Ramarao, Budaraju Radhakrishna et al either
> on this forum or on TELUSA.

I am aware of that works but did not read them. My understanding is
they depict that for professions వడ్రంగం, కుమ్మరి etc., and
NOT a general dictionary for students. Isn't that true? Does that
works give nuances of a general word and it synonyms in different
dialects transcending a particular profession?

> Again, let me be blunt ansd ask you if you ever *saw* those "number
> plates" where numbers were written in 'Telugu'. If yes, then I am
> sure you wouldn't haven written your entire above paragraph. Please
> go and find out which numbers are written in Telugu.

This time, let me be blunt and ask you how do you know that
I haven't "saw" those "number plates"?
Should I describe that on the botton left handside of the rear
portion of dust-covered green-looking bus, yes the bus number,
literally the bus number (not route number) is depicted
with about my index-size finger font Telugu numerals in white paint?
If a bus does not stop at a stop it is supposed to, hits or God
forbid runs over any thing/being as it happens numerous time,
merely saying the route-number bus doesn't cut it. If the idea is
to obfuscate it, let them just delete the whole thing, it wouldn't
make a difference anyway for those who want to get away with
anything. I am lost as to what you meant and want me to
say instead? Or is it less important to you the fact that it is
merely the bus number and it is fine to use Telugu numerals for
such things and you support it?

With regards
- Srinivas

[Sreenadh Jonnavithula]

This is curious. Can someone of our members in Hyderabad take a picture of
one of these offending rear ends of buses, and post it for our benefit?

Thanks!

Sreenadh

> > Again, let me be blunt ansd ask you if you ever *saw* those "number
> > plates" where numbers were written in 'Telugu'.

> Should I describe that on the botton left handside of the rear
> portion of dust-covered green-looking bus, yes the bus number,
> literally the bus number (not route number) is depicted
> with about my index-size finger font Telugu numerals in white paint?

[Sreenadh Jonnavithula]

----- Original Message -----
From: "lylayer" <lyl...@aol.com>
> > And regarding "Telugu Culture" in RB charter, I second
> > Sreenadh and the onus of defining what exactly it is, is on
> > moderators themselves.
>

> You want rb moderators to define telugu culture for you! Would you be
> willing to make adjustments to your own understanding based on their
> definitions?

Can't let this pass .. the point is, Telugu Culture is this general diffuse
concept, and everyone has their own understanding of what it means. The
ongoing debate demonstrates this quite well. But one particular definition
of TC -that of the moderators - has a special importance, because the RB
charter contains that phrase, and messages are potentially rejected/edited
based upon that charter.

I must hasten to add that I am not questioning a specific decision of the
moderators here - just trying to clarify the general principle. The group
has already decided that Moderation is a good thing (judging by the number
of posts in support when this issue came up the last time). So be it. But
shouldn't we clearly know what is verbotten? (and no, I do not want to be a
moderator)

> Is it not this premise that Afsar is exploring or trying to voice?
> That people who are in charge of cultural (any) organisations, groups,
> committees knowingly or unknowingly can control/modulate culture?

Heck no. There are always one or two square pegs like me who refuse to be
controlled/modulated :)

- Sreenadh

[Kiran Kumar Chava]

On 4/18/05, Kiran Kumar Chava <chava...@gmail.com> wrote:
> photos, Hope to send one day, but for now:
> 1. The registration numbers like AP03 1234 are written in both the
> languages english, Telugu. One on left side one on right.
> 2. The usual numbers of route like 216, 217A, 1A are written in english only.
>
> Nobody worries if u read the registration number or not, what we need
> is only the route number

[Sreenivas Paruchuri]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, Sreenadh Jonnavithula <sreenadh@g...> wrote:

> charter contains that phrase, and messages are potentially rejected/edited
> based upon that charter.

We do NOT edit messages! Please read the charter.

Thanks and Regards,
Sreenivas

[Sreenivas Paruchuri]

> --- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, Sreenivas Paruchuri gAru wrote:

> Thats why I said it might have usurped any or all dialects.
> Still my point to make it relevant to intended audience applies to
> even above regions/populace- isn't it?

I was replying to the question/complaint that "Telangana dialect is not
allowed to be read or spoken". My point is, *no* 'dialect' was read or
spoken on DD/AIR. Given their setup and broadcasting areas, IMO, its not possible either.

> has potent clout. Are you implying there was more than
> adequate of such writings?

Yes!

> NOT a general dictionary for students. Isn't that true? Does that
> works give nuances of a general word and it synonyms in different
> dialects transcending a particular profession?

Is there such a "general dictionary for students" in any language?

re: bus numbers in Telugu numerals, Kirankumar-gaaru has already commented
on that.

Regards,
Sreenivas

[Srinivas Nagulapalli]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, Lyla gAru wrote:
>
> You want rb moderators to define telugu culture for you! Would you
> be willing to make adjustments to your own understanding based on
> their definitions?

No. It is only to know their viewpoint.

> Is it not this premise that Afsar is exploring or trying to voice?
> That people who are in charge of cultural (any) organisations,
> groups, committees knowingly or unknowingly can control/modulate
> culture?

I don't think people will put up with controlling culture or even
the mere perception of being "controlled". The moment that happens,
new organizations are formed to cater to what is constricted or
controlled too much. We see that all the time. For whatever reasons
or preferences, we already know there are some who participate more
in other groups like Telugudanam (that is not moderated and with
similar scope), than here in RB, even though they are/(were)
members of both.

Regards
-Srinivas

[Srinivas Nagulapalli]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, Sreenivas Paruchuri gAru wrote:

> I was replying to the question/complaint that "Telangana dialect is
> not allowed to be read or spoken". My point is, *no* 'dialect' was
> read or spoken on DD/AIR. Given their setup and broadcasting areas,
> IMO, its not possible either.

I am surprised. Why do you think so? Just because it has not been
done before, does it mean it should not be done now? What is
the downside to encouraging and celebrating diversity?

There is such openness in US that Indians can have their own
programs broadcasted on Radios and telecasted on TVs in their own
langauges. I am baffled and saddened that we do not encourage
people to vigorously and actively participate in whatever dialects
and languages that they want in their own land? And how far is
this and how different is it from broadcasting జానపద గీతాలు on
AIR?

>
> > has potent clout. Are you implying there was more than
> > adequate of such writings?
>
> Yes!
>

Relieving as it is, that does not tell much. I would very much
like to know who criticised (excluding politicians!) and what
editorials and reviews expressed outrage and which stalwarts spoke
up. And particularly if any noted film or film-industry-related
personalities are among them would be very helpful to know.

I too know, too many rants from too many film personalities
about "low values" depicted, poor సాహిత్యం, vulgarity et.al
But not about the issue of targeted ridicule of dialects
specifically.

Mere "reports" about and rants of agitations and agitators,
protests and protestors, and what the leaders of agitation spouted
about the issue are not what I am looking for, as I too saw them-
too many.

I am yet to see editors and respected or notable personalities
speaking loudly and clearly about it without mincing matters.
I think any balanced criticism and review and stance by
intelligentsia deserves more publicity and nothing gladdens me
more than seeing them more. Any pointers would be appreciated.

I think such issues with far reaching impact cannot ever have
enough help from all the best minds and hearts to address and
resolve them.

> > NOT a general dictionary for students. Isn't that true? Does
that
> > works give nuances of a general word and it synonyms in
different
> > dialects transcending a particular profession?
>
> Is there such a "general dictionary for students" in any language?

Why such question? Should I point out what you very well know
about numerous general dictionaries for students in English,
which not only indicate if a particular word is slang (american)
or whatever, and gives etmylogies?

> re: bus numbers in Telugu numerals, Kirankumar-gaaru has already
> commented on that.

So what, if it is mere registration numbers. How is that useful
or helpful to anyone? Isn't there any thing better to do? What
is the point?

Regards
-Srinivas

[Viplav Reddy]

Kiran Kumar Chava wrote:

>> ... when ParucUri was head of "telugu baashaa saMGaM".

Sri Paruchuri wrote:

>"was"? Then, who is the present chairman? As everyone knows these are
>all political appointments. I wonder when did we last have a serious
>linguist/scholar as head of this body!

Did the following change take place officially:

http://www.eenadu.net/archives/archive-26-3-2005/story.asp?qry1=14&reccount=21

My question is if Sri ABK is considered a linguist/scholar in Telugu
by anyone on this board who can tell me either way?

thanks, viplav

[V. Chowdary Jampala]

On 4/18/05, Srinivas Nagulapalli <srini...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> So what, if it is mere registration numbers. How is that useful
> or helpful to anyone? Isn't there any thing better to do? What
> is the point?

Has anybody on this forum attempted to defend this practice?
The first time I saw them, I thought it was an asinine idea and still think so.

Regards -- V Chowdary Jampala

--
Visit http://www.telugunaadi.com for Telugu Naadi, the Pulse of Telugu America

[vcjampala]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, Viplav Reddy <viplavreddy@g...>
wrote:

> Did the following change take place officially:
>
> http://www.eenadu.net/archives/archive-26-3-2005/story.asp?
qry1=14&reccount=21
>
> My question is if Sri ABK is considered a linguist/scholar in Telugu
> by anyone on this board who can tell me either way?

ABK! A Chairman of a govt commission? Well, well, wonders never
cease.

ABK is a well respected journalist with decidely leftist leanings.
He is known for being the founding editor of many newspapers and
magazines in AP including Eenadu. I do not believe that anybody would
mistake him for a linguist. While he is well read and is passionate,
I donot know if he would be considered a scholar in Telugu.

Regards -- V Chowdary Jampala

[spalthepu]

Sorry for jumping into the thread in the middle., but:

> I was replying to the question/complaint that "Telangana dialect is not
> allowed to be read or spoken". My point is, *no* 'dialect' was read or

************************************

> spoken on DD/AIR. Given their setup and broadcasting areas, IMO, its
not possible either.

This is not true. The language spoken on AIR/DD is a dialect
used only in small minority (people from two casts in two districts,
to be specific). Just that they call it as "standard telugu"
and impose on the rest of the A.P using institutions of state.
It is a langauage that is called Badipalukula Telugu, to use
kaloji's phrase.

thanks
srini

[Sesha Vadapalli]

పరుచూరి గారి తర్వాత శ్రీమతి యశొదా రెడ్డి గారు
అధికార భాషా సంఘ అధ్యక్షులని గుర్తు.

ఈ అధ్యక్ష పదవికి భాషావేత్త లేక పండితులు
కావలసిన అవసరమేమిటి?
తెలుగు భాష మీద, దాని వాడుక - వ్యాప్తి మీద
మక్కువ, శ్రద్ధ వుంటే చాలదా?

IMHO, having a lit bit of political clout will also help.

----
namassulatO,
V.S.T.Sayee.




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[sree...@ghantasala.info]

Sorry to jump in with a tangential comment. I find it amusing that we're arguing
about lack of local dialects, or ridiculing a particular dialect, in present day
movies. We're fighting over the 5% max of movies which are actually in Telugu.
The other 95% of most movies are in a subspecies of Telugu, with wierd
english/hindi/muddu-maatalu accents don't occur in nature.

Personally, I find good earthy authentic dialogue all too rare, and am happy to
listen to it, whether from comedians or villains.

- Sreenahd

Quoting Srinivas Nagulapalli <srini...@yahoo.com>:

> I too know, too many rants from too many film personalities
> about "low values" depicted, poor సాహిత్యం, vulgarity et.al
> But not about the issue of targeted ridicule of dialects
> specifically.
>

[Satyanarayana Pamarty]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, "V. Chowdary Jampala"
<cjampala@g...> wrote:
----

> On 4/18/05, Srinivas Nagulapalli <srini_nagul@y...> wrote:
>
> > So what, if it is mere registration numbers. How is that useful
> > or helpful to anyone? Isn't there any thing better to do? What
> > is the point?
>
> Has anybody on this forum attempted to defend this practice?
> The first time I saw them, I thought it was an asinine idea and
still think so.

----

Dear jampAla gAru:

:-)

I think I did. Before someone points to it, let me own it up. :-)

In one of my posts, I seem to have said something in its defense. I
said what I said not because I thought these numbers are useful.

I said it because if we do not keep these numerals in public memory,
just like the word "Andhra" has been distorted now and is not believed
to mean the majority of people against historical fact, I feared the
numbers too if they fade from public memory and are brought in front
of people at a later stage would be made fun of as some kind of
strange contemporary invention which has no grounding in truth.

While on the one hand, our friends seem to be rightly and vociferously
voicing their opinion in calling for respect to diversity and usage of
several dialects, they seem to be kicking telugu numerals on the butt
just because they are not familiar with them (and perhaps because the
English numerals are already there as standards).

Keeping in line with their stand for dialects (against standardisation
of language), they should have welcomed this non-standardisation of
numerals too. Why these double standards?

Thanks and best wishes

Satya

[Srinivas Nagulapalli]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, SrI Satyanarayana Pamarty gAru
wrote:

Dear Satya gAru:
namaskAraM

> I think I did. Before someone points to it, let me own it up. :-)

Why say that? :-) This is mere discussion- and let us toss around
ideas and hope some good ones emerge. What does it matter who
said what.

> Keeping in line with their stand for dialects (against standardisation
> of language), they should have welcomed this non-standardisation of
> numerals too. Why these double standards?

I think they are different and there is no double standard.

Not having Telugu numerals on buses is not depriving any one from
any dialect/region anything. No one (hardly!) knows them anyway!
On the other hand having them is not serving or helping any one.

Love of something does not mean we can be thoughtless about it!
If the idea is to preserve the numerals, putting them on buses
is not the best way, and infact is the worst way to start
doing it. There are other places and ways to introduce them
to propagate/preserve, without making them standing symbols of
thoughtlessness!

Thanks and with best wishes
-Srinivas

[Srinivas Nagulapalli]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, sreenadh@g... wrote:
>
> Sorry to jump in with a tangential comment. I find it amusing that
> we're arguing about lack of local dialects, or ridiculing a
> particular dialect, in present day movies. We're fighting over the
> 5% max of movies which are actually in Telugu. The other 95% of
> most movies are in a subspecies of Telugu, with wierd
> english/hindi/muddu-maatalu accents don't occur in nature.
>
> Personally, I find good earthy authentic dialogue all too rare,
> and am happy to listen to it, whether from comedians or villains.

Nothing amusing to me. I would rather take 95% (if that is what
the numbers indeed are!) subspecies of Telugu movies than the
rest of them that ridicule any dialect/region/group. It
isn't even logical! But only human.

It all depends on who is on the receiving end. Don't we see
years of friendship and nice words (why even marriages!)
snapping by merely one incident/event? It is only just as
amusing.

Regards
-Srinivas

[sree...@ghantasala.info]

I didn't express myself correctly - I mean, in each (most) "Telugu" movie, 95%
of the dialogue sounds nothing like Telugu at all.

- Sreenadh

Quoting Srinivas Nagulapalli <srini...@yahoo.com>:

> Nothing amusing to me. I would rather take 95% (if that is what
> the numbers indeed are!) subspecies of Telugu movies than the

[c_kanneganti]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, "spalthepu" <psrini@m...> wrote:
>
> This is not true. The language spoken on AIR/DD is a dialect
> used only in small minority (people from two casts in two
districts,
> to be specific). Just that they call it as "standard telugu"
> and impose on the rest of the A.P using institutions of state.
> It is a langauage that is called Badipalukula Telugu, to use
> kaloji's phrase.

It would have been easier for the discussion had you named the
castes and districts. I guess I can safely assume that the two
districts are Guntur and Krishna.

May I know the basis of your conclusion about which dialect is
spoken on AIR/DD? Which parts of these districts did you go to and
talk to the native people? Did you notice that people through out
these districts speaking the same dialect? Did you here anyone
anywhere say 'ఆడెనకమాల వొత్తన్నాడులే నువు పా!' or 'ఇప్పుడే
వచ్చిద్ది కూకో!'? Interesting to note that people of a caste speak
the same dialect across the board. Do you mean that the education
and the wealth don't play a part in their 'moving up' on the
imaginary ladder of language?

Regards,
Chandra Kanneganti

[Hemantha Kumar]

But in the same coin they were saying ఆరు కోట్ల ఆంధ్రులు or for that matterఏడు కోట్ల ఆంధ్రులు.

I am not very sure whether the numericals painted on APSRTC buses in Hyderabad or for that matter elsewhere are Telugu numerals or not. But apparently somebody thought it fit to paint them on public transport so that many can see them and some enthusiasm might be kindled.

If they are to be called idiots or idiotic scholars, what should be the teachers/guides/writers of primers be called for not teaching them/writing about them in the first place? As teachers, if they are to be respected for something thye have not done consciously or unconsciously, then why not somebody, trying with all zeal to blow in fresh air on to something that is dying and is being forgotten, be respected too?

As usual my trivia.

Hemantha Kumar

Srinivas Nagulapalli <srini...@yahoo.com> wrote:
<snip>
By the way does any one know which brilliant and idiotic scholars helped APSRTC(Andhra Pradhesh State Road Transport Corporation) guide and paint Telugu numerals on their buses in Hyderabad? I studied in Hyd with first language as Telugu and no where was I taught them nor were they listed in any of my then Telugu text books. Last year when I checked few textbooks used for beginners, none of them explained those numerals either. But that did not deter the enthusiastic, learned idiots to go ahead and paint those Telugu numerals on buses. Thank God they also have English equivalents!


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[Hemantha Kumar Pamarthy]

Even at the worst, it does serve one purpose. Many of these buses, if they =
go to other states, will display these numbers by which we can show that we=
do have numerals in our own language too, as do states like Karnataka and =
also Maharashtra, if I am not mistaken.=20=20

Hemantha Kumar=A0


On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 Srinivas Nagulapalli wrote :
>Snip<

> If the idea is to preserve the numerals, putting them on buses
> is not the best way, and infact is the worst way to start
> doing it. There are other places and ways to introduce them
> to propagate/preserve, without making them standing symbols of
> thoughtlessness!

[Raghu]

I very well agree with Hemantha Kumar. If we look around , in each and every state they teach their mother tongue's numerals and write them at every public location , including public transportation's. So to address the root cause of this , somewhere in our schooling curriculum they should make learning telugu numerals to all students, a mandatory thing. That would keep our language more alive...

Again purely my personal opinion..

-Raghu.

Hemantha Kumar wrote:

> If they are to be called idiots or idiotic scholars, what should be the teachers/guides/writers of primers be called for not teaching them/writing about them in the first place? As teachers, if they are to be respected for something thye have not done consciously or unconsciously, then why not somebody, trying with all zeal to blow in fresh air on to something that is dying and is being forgotten, be respected too?

[Satyanarayana Pamarty]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, SrI Srinivas Nagulapalli gAru
<srini_nagul@y...> wrote:

----

> I think they are different and there is no double standard.
>
> Not having Telugu numerals on buses is not depriving any one from
> any dialect/region anything. No one (hardly!) knows them anyway!
> On the other hand having them is not serving or helping any one.

----

నమస్కారం శ్రీనివాసు గారు

I don't think they are different. Not passing on the knowledge of the
numerals to the next generation (or may be in this case, to the
present generation itself) is depriving them of their heritage.

Not many know them because most people are not even aware of their
existence. In comparison, given half a chance like this, people in my
adopted homeland would have gained so much mileage out of it.

Since they do not have numerals, they have gone on to invent them in
the last 25 years or so and some people use these newly invented
numerals (with no English numerals along side them) on nameplates of
their vehicles. This is done on their own volition without the
government's approval. Now, having telugu numerals alongside english
numbers with approval doesn't seem to be such a thoughtless idea in
comparison.

If English numerals are also present, it doesn't hurt to have telugu
numerals too. Does it? If it does, how? I can only envisage one or two
scenarios where it might hurt.

Assuming a scenario where knowing the numbers is critical, unless the
person viewing these numbers has vision only in the left eye and also
suffers from simultaneous spondylosis, it would not be difficult to
simply move the right eyeball to the right end of the rear or the
front of the bus to read the English numerals.

Having vision in only one eye and simultaneously having spondylosis is
therefore one of the cases where there might be some trouble. The
other is when one eye is always suspiciously watching the other eye
and hence the person cannot look or apparently doesn't appear to look
in the direction of the English numerals. :-)

These cases are rare. However, we can not write them off. But then, we
can not also write off the rare case where there might only be English
numbers on the left of the rear and front of the bus and the person
reading them critically might have only right eye vision and
simultaneous spondylosis as well thus disabling him from gaining
knowledge of the critical data.

I believe that some people would be interested in knowing their
heritage if it is made known to them. That is a purpose these
nameplates might serve. It had to start somewhere. It need not stop
there. Your other ideas seem to be good. May be one of these days,
some one will implement them.

Have a nice day!

Thanks and best wishes

Satya

PS: Some of what I said is for fun only and to promote my argument.
:-) It is not to insult, injure or ridicule the visually challenged.

[Sesha Vadapalli]

వివిధ భారతీయ భాషలలోని సంఖ్యా సంకేతములను ఇక్కడ చూడగలరు

http://www.aczoom.com/itrans/tblall/node6.html

----
namassulatO,
V.S.T.Sayee.

--- Hemantha Kumar Pamarthy <andhra...@rediffmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Even at the worst, it does serve one purpose. Many of these buses, if they

> go to other states, will display these numbers by which we can show that we

> do have numerals in our own language too, as do states like Karnataka and

> also Maharashtra, if I am not mistaken.
>

> Hemantha Kumar?




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[Narasimham Paranandi]

Honestly!
How many of you know/write "Telugu Numerals"?
Regards
pAlana

PS: Savitri gAru! Well said about "English Numbers". Thanks.

Hemantha Kumar <andhra...@yahoo.com> wrote:

But in the same coin they were saying ఆరు కోట్ల ఆంధ్రులు or for that matterఏడు కోట్ల ఆంధ్రులు.

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[spalthepu]

> It would have been easier for the discussion had you named the
> castes and districts. I guess I can safely assume that the two
> districts are Guntur and Krishna.
>

Chandra Garu,

I thought most people, if not all, will know what they are.
Since you guessed the districts, you can do the same with
castes. I tend not to use specifics since that can easily
turn any acadamic discussion into personal and emotional
discussion. Caste is very personal thing for many people.
Have you not heard the saying that Cast in India is like
sex. Everyone practices but no one wants to talk about it?

> May I know the basis of your conclusion about which dialect is
> spoken on AIR/DD? Which parts of these districts did you go to and

Lifetime of experience with people from various
places and castes. And talking to experts like
various linguist and poets/writers.

> Did you notice that people through out
> these districts speaking the same dialect?

No. please read my mail again.

> ... Do you mean that the education

> and the wealth don't play a part in their 'moving up' on the
> imaginary ladder of language?

Yes it does. But the education is also based on the books and
langauge used by school and other institutions that are heavily
biased. During the Nizams time educated elite used to use more
polished Persian, than street Urdu. It all depends upon who is
incharge, you see.

thanks & regards
srini

[Hemantha Kumar]

That precisely, I think, is the point. Since many of us may not know either, why don't we get inspired?

In fact it has already inspired at least a few posters of RB who have directed us to various sites, which give the details of the numericals. If that be the case, hasn't the purpose been served at least to a nano extent?

Hemantha Kumar

Narasimham Paranandi <paa...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Honestly!
How many of you know/write "Telugu Numerals"?

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[Narasimham Paranandi]

That is precisely my point too.
If this many scholars on RB have to look up and learn from a "WEB SITE", how can an ordinary in తెలుగు/తెలంగాణా నాడు can decipher what those telugu numerals (only present in oxidized papers) mean.
I rest my case.
Regards
pAlana

PS: This is exactly what we argue in the name of కల్చరు and try to distinguish from లంగూగె and లింగుఇస్తిచ్స్ in relation to tools vs academic interest.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Hemantha Kumar <andhra...@yahoo.com> wrote:

That precisely, I think, is the point. Since many of us may not know either, why don't we get inspired?

In fact it has already inspired at least a few posters of RB who have directed us to various sites, which give the details of the numericals. If that be the case, hasn't the purpose been served at least to a nano extent?

Narasimham Paranandi <paa...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Honestly!
How many of you know/write "Telugu Numerals"?

[Viplav Reddy]

>If this many scholars on RB have to look up and learn from a "WEB
SITE", how can
>an ordinary in తెలుగు/తెలంగాణా నాడు can decipher what those telugu numerals
>(only present in oxidized papers) mean.

>I rest my case.

Not so fast pAlana garu!

Would you feel the same with caitraM, vaiSaakhaM..., vasaMtaM,
grIshmaM..., tithulu, nakshatraalu, saMvatsaraalu (pArthiva
sAkshigaa!)... along with numericals??

My scanning of Hindi, Marathi & Gujarati papers (I think Urdu papers
out of Hyd including Siasat, need to verify!) is that they do use
various numerals from their respective heritage.

How is public policy to change/impose on buses or anywhere different
from issuing a GO to display nameplate or boards in private (let alone
public) enterprises in a certain manner? Let me hasten to add, I am
not defending any such practices.

regards, viplav

[Hemantha Kumar]

When we do not know something, as curious people, we try to search for answers. Don't we? So it might be the basis behind the idea of the people, writing in Telugu numerals. To provoke people to think what these could be. I may venture to say that neither of us may have (I don't, for sure) any statistics as to how many of the people were inspired to find out or rather did not find out what these paintings are all about? or do you?

Such being the case, except for surmising that many people might not know how to decipher, we cannot think that every or any ordinary man cannot decipher the numericals. For all that we know it might have led at least a few people to think/wonder what these could be and provoked them to find out?

If at least one person did not notice that, do you think we would be having this debate
now? :-)))

Here my case is parked for the time being.

Best wishes

Hemantha Kumar

Narasimham Paranandi <paa...@yahoo.com> wrote:

<snip>

If this many scholars on RB have to look up and learn from a "WEB SITE", how can an ordinary in తెలుగు/తెలంగాణా నాడు can decipher what those telugu numerals (only present in oxidized papers) mean. I rest my case.

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