[racchabanda] FW: Telugu card games

[Krishna Rao Maddipati]

I received a very interesting email (see below) from the Mr. Thierry
Depaulis, Chairman, IPCS (http://i-p-c-s.org) referring to our discussions
on racchabanda about cards games a while ago. I'm sure this would be of
interest to other racchabandites too.

Obviously, the 9 card in అద్దాట is called మనేల or మణేల similar in
sound and identity to the Dutch sound 'manille' in the 'yas' game he
referred to below.

On a different but related note, I had a theory about the origin of the word
పేకా, and hence, పేకాటా. My thinking was that the term 'playing cards'
was abbreviated using the first syllables of the two words in Telugu (of
course, ignoring the 'l') to disguise it from elders who would scorn at the
game. In response to my query, if the term పేక also had a similar
sounding name in Europe, Mr. Depaulis suggested that it might just be the
English word 'pack' (as in 'pack' of cards), which sounds more plausible to
me now.

Krishna Rao

------ Forwarded Message
From: Thierry Depaulis <thierry....@free.fr>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 18:21:59 +0100
To: Krishna Rao Maddipati <madd...@wayne.edu>
Subject: Telugu card games

Sir,

I read yesterday your post of 27 Sep 2006 on the racchabanda newsgroup
("rules and procedures") about the game Addata.

I am a card game historian, and I got very much interested in your
discussion, because I believe Addata has some relationship with a European,
more precisely Dutch, card game called Jas (pronounced /yas/) of which it
has the main features.

In the 18th and 19th centuries this game spread to many parts of Europe,
and it has become, under the name of Belote, the "national game" of my
country.

I have also found your more recent posts on 'Bestu kudelu' which is another
fascinating game, since it is also strongly related to a family of European
games. Here I think 'bestu' and 'kudelu' must be the Telugu forms of
respectively 'beste' (Dutch, from French bete, "beast"), and 'codille', two
words that were well known in the 17th and 18th centuries with exactly the
same meanings as described in Gurujada Apparao's "Girls for sale:
Kanyasulkam", as transl. from Telugu by Velcheru Narayana Rao (Bloomington
& Indianapolis : Indiana University Press, 2007), pp. 197-8.

There seem to be other Telugu terms that may be derived from Dutch (or
other European) words, like 'maneia', which I find defined as "the nine
piece in a deck of playing cards" and is strongly reminiscent of 'manille'
(indeed almost sounding the same!), the name of the Nine in most Jas games.

In your Addata post you quoted words and expressions directly in Telugu.
Unfortunately I can't read this language.

Would you be so kind as to give me romanized equivalents?

Very many thanks in advance for your help.

Sicerely,

Thierry Depaulis
130 rue Lamarck
F - 75018 Paris

------ End of Forwarded Message



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[Sreenivas Paruchuri]

Krishnarao-gaaru,

This is a fascinating piece of information and thanks a lot for kindly sharing your correspondance with the list! I know a good bit about the Dutch settlements/factories in Telugu country; esp. in Godavari and Krishna deltas - places like పాలకొల్లు, నరసాపురం, ద్రాక్షారామం, ంఅసులిపత్నం... Probably I mentioned you about a couple of amusing*, but also highly informative papers from Sanjay Subrahmanyam (worth highlighting is: Rural Industry and commercial agriculture in late 17th century south eastern India, Past and Present, 1990, p. 76-114) and also the works of Arasaratnam, and Tapan Ray Chaudhuri. But I never knew that theres this kind of cultural interaction with the natives. Ideally a Telugu native, with good language skills in Dutch, French and English, who is willing to do archival work, should work on such topics. But no one back home seems to be interested in archival work. The other day (we
ll its more than 5 years...) read a paper with rich data on "Akkanna and Madanna" in JESHO (J of economic and social history of the orient) by a Dutch scholar.

I have more examples to give and more to lament, but getting back to the discussion, I am wondering what kind of (native/folk) etymology was given to this word "bEstu kudElu" sofar.

Thanks and Regards,
Sreenivas

* The Dutch had even documented the number of cows and buffaloes in each weaver's family :-)

[Murty, Katta]

KR గారూ: తెలుగు రాని ఈ యూరోపీన్ అతను ``పేకాటాధ్నే మాట తెలుగులో ఎలా వాదుకలోకి వచ్చిందో
అంత చక్కగా వివరించడం చాలా బావుంది.
కట్టా మూర్తి.
________________________________

[Saradhi Motamarri]

I am not sure whether Krishnarao gari original posting included the variation of 'addata' we used to play, called 'thurupu.' 3 or 4 people used to play the game.

While I do not know well Bridge, people used to say 'thurupu' is also close to Bridge.
 
With best regards and thanks...   Saradhi.
Saradhi Motamarri, PMP®
Email: msar...@yahoo.com   H: (61)-2-9797-8104  M: (61) 430 022 130.
"The mark of leadership is the inability to differentiate the Art and Science."

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Krishna Rao Maddipati]

While each trump declaring card game has similarities with others, అడ్డాట is quite
different from తురుపు.

తురుపు is played just like Bridge without any bidding. Considering more than 50% of
Bridge game is in the bidding, you might ask what is left in తురుపు? That's it. Blindly
declare the trump or తురుపు and play the hand you are dealt, without any clues of your
opponents' strength or distribution of cards. Your ability to strategize the play is limited in
తురుపు.

Just like Bridge, తురుపు is played with only four people. Playing with three happens when
you are short of people. This is possible because the partner of the player declaring
తురుపు is the dummy (lays down the cards after the first card was played by the
opponent and the declarer plays both hands just like in Bridge).

Krishna Rao

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, Saradhi Motamarri <msaradhi@...> wrote:
>
> I am not sure whether Krishnarao gari original posting included the variation of 'addata'
we used to play, called 'thurupu.' 3 or 4 people used to play the game.
>
> While I do not know well Bridge, people used to say 'thurupu' is also close to Bridge.

[J. K. Mohana Rao]

Playing with three in bridge - we used to call this as "cut-throat"!

What is actually aDDa? Is it like aDDaMgA or does it
mean something like a vaMtena? 

Regards!  -  mOhana

--- On Tue, 11/18/08, Krishna Rao Maddipati <madd...@wayne.edu> wrote:


Just like Bridge, తురుపు is played with only four people. Playing with three happens when

you are short of people. This is possible because the partner of the player declaring

తురుపు is the dummy (lays down the cards after the first card was played by the

opponent and the declarer plays both hands just like in Bridge).

_,_._,__We

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Satyanarayana Pamarty]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, Krishna Rao Maddipati

<maddipati@...> wrote:
>
> I received a very interesting email (see below) from the Mr. Thierry
> Depaulis, Chairman, IPCS (http://i-p-c-s.org) referring to our
discussions
> on racchabanda about cards games a while ago. I'm sure this would
be of
> interest to other racchabandites too.
>
> Obviously, the 9 card in అద్దాట is called మనేల or మణేల
similar in
> sound and identity to the Dutch sound 'manille' in the 'yas' game he
> referred to below.

Aha! So, that is 'yas', is it? I always thought it was 'ass'
or 'ace'.

Our parents were experts at one time at most card games (I heard).
They don't play anymore and also did not allow us to play
the "pack"ATa at home when we were kids.

I think our parents saw many a telugu family get ruined because of
this gambling game in Madras and banished it from our family. This
ban was in full force on the children they were raising. My elder
brother, the "dora dommara, dESa drimmara" who had already 'risen' by
then did not have to heed this ban.

So, as a kid, I had to play the card games in my neighbour's house
(in hiding), where they obviously did not have any such ban in place.
In Madras, there is a game that is played that goes with a name that
sounds like "ass". Some pronounced it as "Ace". Don't know if it's
the same as 'yas'.

There was this other "harmless" game, కోమటి దివాలా which was the
only game we kids were allowed to play when we visited our uncle's
and aunt's places in AP. I was good at దివాలా. However, my gullible
siblings never could catch me cheating them, so I always emerged a
winner in all games I played.

There was then this 'rummy' and some other games I don't remember
that we used to play too.

While we were never allowed to play at home, whenever we went to a
marriage or other family get-together in our relatives' places, we
could find the backyards, and rooms in the host's house/marriage
halls filled with pEkATa enthusiasts of all genders, ages in varied
levels of attire (from semi nude and up) sitting/lying down etc. in
different postures, but with a fan of cards in their hands.

I never quite understood the purpose of their చతుర్ముఖ పారాయణం
or "four-headed penance". I used to watch them in awe when they used
to shuffle the cards with such ease in such different ways or when
they distributed the cards to the various players with such speed.

Eventually, I could muster enough knowledge of cards to enable me to
get through my probability sums in mathematics. If playing cards is a
culture thing for the telugus, like most other things dear to the
telugus, I did not have a fair share of it.

With best wishes

Satya

[Krishna Rao Maddipati]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, "J. K. Mohana Rao" <jkmrao@...> wrote:
>
> Playing with three in bridge - we used to call this as "cut-throat"!
>
> What is actually aDDa? Is it like aDDaMgA or does it
> mean something like a vaMtena? 
>

I've heard of వంతెన but not sure what type of a game it is. From the name, could it be
Bridge?

వివినమూర్తి గారు gave the rules for అడ్డాట in an earlier post:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/racchabanda/message/16514

and I added my two cents worth following that post:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/racchabanda/message/16521


Is Bridge, when played by three people, indeed called cut-throat? To my knowledge,
playing Bridge with three people is only due to lack of hands (obviously, not in
tournaments). Bidding under those conditions is tricky and completely dependent on the
opponent's honesty. If you are playing without a partner and you had a chance to bid, one
of your opponents (usually the hand on the left) gets to see your 'partner's' cards and bid
in response to your bid. If your opponent bidding for your 'partner' decides to mislead
you, there is no game. Cut-throat or otherwise.

The three-player game, cut-throat, could be a different one. There is a game called
మూడు, నాలుగు, ఐదు పట్లు (not very imaginative naming!). This is played by three
people. The cards '2' of all suites are removed from the full deck. After the shuffle, each
player is dealt five cards first. One of the three players will declares the trump with the
dealer having an upper hand if he/she wants to declare the trump. The remaining cards
are distributed in two batches, first four and next three cards each. The player to the right
of the dealer leads to start the game (if the players decide to play anti-clockwise). Higher
denomination card simply gets the trick. If a player is void of the suit played, he/she can
ruff with the trump to take the trick, provided the next player also doesn't ruff with a
higher trump (and also void in the suit being played). The trump declarer has to make a
minimum of 5 tricks, the person to the right has to make 4, and the other person has to
make 3. The person making more than the required tricks gets to collect the money from
those who didn't make it. In this gave everyone is on his/her own and hence 'cut-throat', if
it is indeed this game. In Bridge, అడ్డాట, etc., games, you always have partners. As you
can imagine, these games cannot be played for money like Rummy.

Regards,
Krishna Rao

[Hemantha Kumar]

It is of much regret that though my father could play as many as 18 different card games with aplomb (I was told, but could see him demonstrate only a few) as Satya said, none of us were allowed to play. I remember accompanying my father to the Madras Social Cultural Club in Madras (now ASCA or Andhra Social and Cultural Association) where my father was an honourary member that did not require him to pay any membership at all. Of course as Satya has already said I had sort of "risen" :-)))) {I had always been the black sheep that way and of course a rebel in my own way} and used to play quite a few but did not have the killer instinct to learn and play more. I still love to play a good Gin Rummy though.
?
I could see this instinct in relatives in whose houses almost all weekends used to be card game rituals starting on Saturday nights and ending usually in the early hours of Mondays sort of.
?
And after coming into Management we are restricted to only "Chaturangam" by moving coins for survival. Sigh....
?
Best wishes
Hemantha Kumar Pamarthy

--- On Wed, 11/19/08, Satyanarayana Pamarty <pam...@hotmail.com> wrote:

--- In racchabanda@ yahoogroups. com, Krishna Rao Maddipati
<maddipati@. ..> wrote:
<snip>

Our parents were experts at one time at most card games (I heard).
They don't play anymore and also did not allow us to play
the "pack"ATa at home when we were kids.

I think our parents saw many a telugu family get ruined because of
this gambling game in Madras and banished it from our family. This
ban was in full force on the children they were raising. My elder

brother, the "dora dommara, dESa drimmara" who had already 'risen' by then did not have to heed this ban. <snip>

[Sreenadh Jonnavithula]

Don't know if this is a Telugu game per se, but what we used to play as "cut-throat" has a lot of strategy and is not a trivial game by any means. The 52 cards are dealt out to the three players, with the one remaining card dealt to the Dummy. Each player has to give 4 cards to the dummy from his hand. The only rule is that he must give 4 points (under the usual bridge reckoning of J=1, Q=2, K=3, A=4). If he has less than 4 points in his hand to begin with, he has to give all those points to dummy.

Bidding begins between the three live players. Whoever has the top bid gets the dummy as his partner.

You can imagine the strategic possibilities here. If you have a weak 3 card suit, you can dump all those on the dummy along with another Ace if you plan to be the top bid, and then control the suit by ruffing. (for this reason, usually, these games tend to have wierd distributions, with many singletons and voids) You can bid confidently knowing dummy will have atleast 12 points.

- Sreenadh

----- Original Message -----
From: Krishna Rao Maddipati
To: racch...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 5:52 PM
Subject: [racchabanda] Re: FW: Telugu card games

Is Bridge, when played by three people, indeed called cut-throat? To my knowledge,
playing Bridge with three people is only due to lack of hands (obviously, not in
tournaments). Bidding under those conditions is tricky and completely dependent on the
opponent's honesty. If you are playing without a partner and you had a chance to bid, one
of your opponents (usually the hand on the left) gets to see your 'partner's' cards and bid
in response to your bid. If your opponent bidding for your 'partner' decides to mislead
you, there is no game. Cut-throat or otherwise.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Hemantha Kumar]

It is of much regret that though my father could play as many as 18 different card games with aplomb (I was told, but could see him demonstrate only a few) as Satya said, none of us were allowed to play. I remember accompanying my father to the Madras Social Cultural Club in Madras (now ASCA or Andhra Social and Cultural Association) where my father was an honourary member that did not require him to pay any membership at all. Of course as Satya has already said I had sort of "risen" :-)))) {I had always been the black sheep that way and of course a rebel in my own way} and used to play quite a few but did not have the killer instinct to learn and play more. I still love to play a good Gin Rummy though.
?
I could see this instinct in relatives in whose houses almost all weekends used to be card game rituals starting on Saturday nights and ending usually in the early hours of Mondays sort of.
?
And after coming into Management we are restricted to only "Chaturangam" by moving coins for survival. Sigh....
?
Best wishes
Hemantha Kumar Pamarthy

--- On Wed, 11/19/08, Satyanarayana Pamarty <pam...@hotmail.com> wrote:

--- In racchabanda@ yahoogroups. com, Krishna Rao Maddipati
<maddipati@. ..> wrote:
<snip>

Our parents were experts at one time at most card games (I heard).
They don't play anymore and also did not allow us to play
the "pack"ATa at home when we were kids.

I think our parents saw many a telugu family get ruined because of
this gambling game in Madras and banished it from our family. This
ban was in full force on the children they were raising. My elder

brother, the "dora dommara, dESa drimmara" who had already 'risen' by then did not have to heed this ban. <snip>

[Sreenadh Jonnavithula]

Don't know if this is a Telugu game per se, but what we used to play as "cut-throat" has a lot of strategy and is not a trivial game by any means. The 52 cards are dealt out to the three players, with the one remaining card dealt to the Dummy. Each player has to give 4 cards to the dummy from his hand. The only rule is that he must give 4 points (under the usual bridge reckoning of J=1, Q=2, K=3, A=4). If he has less than 4 points in his hand to begin with, he has to give all those points to dummy.

Bidding begins between the three live players. Whoever has the top bid gets the dummy as his partner.

You can imagine the strategic possibilities here. If you have a weak 3 card suit, you can dump all those on the dummy along with another Ace if you plan to be the top bid, and then control the suit by ruffing. (for this reason, usually, these games tend to have wierd distributions, with many singletons and voids) You can bid confidently knowing dummy will have atleast 12 points.

- Sreenadh

----- Original Message -----
From: Krishna Rao Maddipati
To: racch...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 5:52 PM
Subject: [racchabanda] Re: FW: Telugu card games

Is Bridge, when played by three people, indeed called cut-throat? To my knowledge,
playing Bridge with three people is only due to lack of hands (obviously, not in
tournaments). Bidding under those conditions is tricky and completely dependent on the
opponent's honesty. If you are playing without a partner and you had a chance to bid, one
of your opponents (usually the hand on the left) gets to see your 'partner's' cards and bid
in response to your bid. If your opponent bidding for your 'partner' decides to mislead
you, there is no game. Cut-throat or otherwise.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Veluri Venkateswara Rao]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, "Krishna Rao Maddipati"
<maddipati@...> wrote:

>.....In Bridge, అడ్డాట, etc., games, you always have partners. As

>you can imagine, these games cannot be played for money like Rummy.

Not true, Krishna Rao gaaroo!

I thought you have some knowledge of the Clubs in Eluru. Obviously
not! aDDATa is played, I must say heavily played with money in at
least two of the three Eluru clubs.

In re: Bridge. I played a good bit of competitive Bridge in my
heydays. I have also participated as a "hired hand" in Bridge games
played for money. In many private clubs in the USA, Bridge is played
for money, actually at heavy stakes. The smallest stake I have
personal knowledge about is at a stake of " a nickel a point." In
the gamblers language, a nickel is $5.00!

Nowadays, on the internet, you can play not only competitive Bridge
for Master Points, but also to make (oops! rather lose)money!

Of course, every Telugu knew one or other variation of Rummy. It is
also known as Coimbattore Down, although the game has its origin in
Tenali, AP!( Don't dispute it and take away the credit that Tenali
deserves!) Rummy (aka, Cut Joker) used to be more popular
than "knowing about Cricket scores," when we were students at the
Andhra University, Waltair!

Speaking of Tenali, at one time, there were a few international
level players of Bridge. A couple of them I know have competed in
the Bermuda Bowl as hired players in the early seventies!

There is more to revel about Tenali, but......

Regards, --- Veluri Venkateswara Rao

[Krishna Rao Maddipati]

--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, "Veluri Venkateswara Rao" <vrveluri@...> wrote:
>

> I thought you have some knowledge of the Clubs in Eluru. Obviously
> not! aDDATa is played, I must say heavily played with money in at
> least two of the three Eluru clubs.

మాష్టారు, మీ అనుభవాన్ని నేనెంతమాత్రమూ ఖండించను. I've seen Bridge played for
money in Eluru club once when I visited with your friend. But to me, that was too lame. It
did not have the intensity of the players who play for themselves like in Rummy or మూడు
ముక్కలాట. It appeared that money happened to be there on the side rather than the
object of the game. Moreover, you can't choose me to be your partner and bet money on
my knowledge of the game unless you are ready to lose your shirt. :-) When you have to
go with your trusted partner all the time, its no fun and I think that discourages betting.
చెట్టు కింద తుండు పరిచి, దారిన పోయేవాణ్ణి కూర్చోబెట్టి, రమ్మీ ఆడించినంత వీజీ
కాదుగదా బ్రిడ్జి. Obviously, I can't deny the fact that you earned your riches in Bridge
money! ;-))

Just curious, how is the betting done? Even with "nickel a point" a vulnerable game could
cost my week's wages!

అడ్డాటలో ఒక్క తప్పు ముక్కేస్తే, మిగిల్నాళ్ళందరూ నోటికొచ్చినట్టల్లా తిట్టి,
చేతులరిగేదాకా పేక కలిపించేవాళ్ళు. మరి డబ్బెట్టాడితే తప్పాడినాడి గతేంగాను?
రమ్మీలో తప్పు ముక్కేస్తే వేసినవాడి జేబులే కదా ఖాళీ అయ్యేది. మరి అడ్డాటలో అందరికీ
కిళం వదులుతుంది. దానికి అందరూ ఎలా ఒప్పుకుంటారు? ఇది కాస్త విశదీకరించ ప్రార్ధన.

భవదీయుడు,
కృష్ణారావు