[racchabanda] Not-so-random thoughts on Science and Religion
Hanuma Kodavalla
> labeling religious belief, or faith in the puranas and itihasas,
> as "fundamentalism" is unfair ...
> While freedom entails expressing one's opinion without hesitation,
> it brings with it the responsibility to respect others' sensitivities
> as well.? To a large extent, culture and ethics have evolved from
> religious foundations. Masterpieces of art, literature, music and
> theater are based on religious themes.? Although scientific
> rationality sometimes conflicts with religious belief, one cannot but
> acknowledge the firm imprint the latter continues to have on society.
I share some of Uday gari's sentiments, but not entirely his argument. The
word Fundamentalism although was acceptable and in fact desirable to its
followers when it got introduced in the beginning of the last century, it
has in the past few decades become a pejorative expression. I agree it must
be used with caution and sufficient reasoning - if one is interested in a
discussion and not in just name-calling.
However, Uday gAri's main point that one has the responsibility to respect
other people's sensibilities, that I'm afraid one may not be able to and
hence cannot be expected to. Religion played and continues to play a
significant role in art and literature. However, it also played and
continues to play an equally significant role in keeping large segments of
many societies in dark ages. It's probably because of its dual role, the
discussions on religion inevitably hurt the sensibilities of some of its
proponents and some of its opponents. Here are a few examples:
Steven Weinberg, at the end of his popular book, "The First Three Minutes,"
mused philosophically: "As I write this I happen to be in an airplane at
30,000 feet, flying over Wyoming en route home from San Francisco to Boston.
Below, the earth looks very soft and comfortable--fluffy clouds here and
there, now turning pink as the sun sets, roads stretching straight across
the country from one town to another. It is very hard to realize that this
all is just a tiny part of an overwhelming hostile universe."
And then he poignantly closed the book: "But if there is no solace in the
fruits of our research, there is at least some consolation in the research
itself. ... The effort to understand the universe is one of the very few
things that lifts human life a little above the level of farce, and gives it
some of the grace of tragedy."
Some people mistook his musings to be a reflection of the inadequacies of
Science, which probably prompted Weinberg to say this later: "With or
without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil
people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes
religion."
I'm sure his comment hurts the sensitivities of legions of people. But
Weinberg, a Nobel Laureate and a member of the American Academy of Arts and
Sciences is surely a responsible scientist and citizen.
Another famous scientist, Richard Dawkins, wrote a book, "The God Delusion."
I have not read the book but I read H. Allen Orr's (unfavorable) review of
it in January 11, 2007 NYRB. Dawkins seems to be an enemy of religion; he
wants to convert people out of religion and thereby "drive the beast to
extinction." One of his secular Ten Commandments is "Do not indoctrinate
your children!" He does not blame just religious extremism, but religion
itself.
His commandments no doubt hurt the sensitivities of people all over the
world. But Dawkins, a Fellow of the Royal Society, is a highly regarded
scientist and public intellectual.
It'll be unfair, in this context, not to recall Marx, who couldn't care less
about people's sensitivities in the middle of an intellectual argument:
"Religion is the opium of the masses." To add insult to the injury, someone
remarked that Marx was being unfair - after all, the effects of opium,
unlike that of religion, are transitory and entirely curable!
Now let me turn to the other side. Another famous scientist, also a Fellow
of the Royal Society, Freeman Dyson says, "I am myself a Christian, a member
of a community that preserves an ancient heritage of great literature and
great music, provides help and counsel to young and old when they are in
trouble, educates children in moral responsibility, and worships God in its
own fashion."
When Dyson gave his lecture, "The Scientist As Rebel," here in Redmond last
year, someone from the audience asked this question: "There is a growing
movement amongst scientific community to take a firm stand that Science and
religious dogma are incompatible. What do you have to say about that?"
Dyson said he actually started that but Dawkins is the current leader of
that movement. And he is completely opposed to Dawkins who is preaching that
one has to be an atheist to be rational. Dyson said many famous scientists -
from Newton to Salam - are religious believers and science and religious
belief are totally compatible. He in fact said Dawkins was doing great harm
to children because he is turning away many of them from science by
insisting that one has to lose faith to become a scientist. The old man was
visibly upset and finally shrugged off saying he had strong opinions on the
matter.
I think this applies to our own culture too. At least some of the writings
from our rationalist movement - say by Narla, Tripuraneni Ramaswamy Chaudary
- and earlier by Vemana could be offensive to the sensibilities of many of
us. But the writers and many of their readers think they have done a service
to the people by speaking their minds. This kind of questioning and
skepticism seems to be there even in ancient India:
చార్వాకుడు యుద్ధంలో విజయుడై వచ్చిన ధర్మరాజుని పట్టుకొని
బంధుమిత్రులనందర్నీ చంపి ఈ నెత్తుటి కూడు తిని ఏం పాముకుంటావని
కడిగేస్తాడు. (అడిగినందుకు 'తగినా శిక్ష అనుభవించాడనుకోండి.)
Such questioning has been part of our culture although severely suppressed
for many centuries. I believe, it's OK if some feathers are ruffled on
either side - as long as the spirit of reasoning is maintained with no
physical harm.
Let me end this with another lecture story that I just remembered. When I
was growing up in my village Ravinuthala, I heard of Dr. B. Ramamurthy, a
famous neurosurgeon in Madras. I of course never met him and never even read
anything of him. Later while a student IIT Madras, I attended a lecture - as
part of Distinguished Guest Lecture Series - by Dr. S. Kalyanaraman, a
colleague of Dr. Ramamurthy.
This is almost 25 years ago and I do not recall anything he said about
neurology. But I recall he showed great reverence to Dr. Ramamurthy. I also
remember a question from the audience: "Doesn't his scientific pursuit
conflict with his religious faith?" I think Dr. Kalyanaran was wearing the
mark of a Shaivite on his forehead. With a broad smile, the good doctor
said: "No. When I am treating a poor patient my religious faith helps me
charge him less."
Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao
To Post a message, send it to: racch...@yahoogroups.com
Courtesy: http://www.kanneganti.com/
Srinivas Nagulapalli
wrote:
[snip]
> This is almost 25 years ago and I do not recall anything he said
> about neurology. But I recall he showed great reverence to Dr.
> Ramamurthy. I also remember a question from the audience: "Doesn't
> his scientific pursuit conflict with his religious faith?" I think
> Dr. Kalyanaran was wearing the mark of a Shaivite on his forehead.
> With a broad smile, the good doctor said: "No. When I am treating
a
> poor patient my religious faith helps me charge him less."
Thank you KHR gAru for sharing that.
Also this is one of the reasons I much love Telugu !:-)
We call Science and religion in Telugu as విజ్ఞానం, మతం.
We don't even have an exclusive word for religion, and instead
use మతం which strictly means opinion. Oddly, there could be
more than a మతం within another మతం - truly recursive!
Like వైష్ణవ మతం, శైవ మతం within so called Hinduism.
Amazing that English with all its grandeur had not caught up
to such profundity yet !:-) Sorry, enough of సొంత భాష
డబ్బా !
Seriously, religion means different things to different folks.
Its etymology might mean re-unite (re ligare), but it is meant to
mean many things. Naturally many perspectives and criticisms.
Vemana cuts to the chase and underlines beautifully that religion
essentially is all about inside and not outside.
ఆత్మ శుద్ధి లేని ఆచారమదియేల
పాక శుద్ధి లేని భాండమేల
చిత్త శుద్ధి లేని శివ పూజ లేలరా
విశ్వదాభి రామ వినుర వేమ"
With apologies to Vemana, I like to change that a little and say
ఆత్మ శుద్ధి కొరకె ఆచారమంతయు
పాక శుద్ధి కోరు భాండమెల్ల
చిత్త శుద్ధి కొరకె శివ పూజ లన్నియు
సరియొ కాదొ చెప్పు శారదాంబ
-------------------------------------------
Regards
-Srinivas
Srinivas Vuruputuri
> someone from the audience asked this question: "There is a growing
> movement amongst scientific community to take a firm stand that Science and
> religious dogma are incompatible. What do you have to say about that?"
>
That reminded me of a book by Vakati Panduranga Rao - దిక్సూచి - a
slender volume of essays that seeks to build bridges between the
Science and Religion (or the speculative element of it).
I read this book several years ago and I thought it was an earnest
attempt but in the subsequent years, I felt that if it is possible to
build a Value System independent of religion, we may not really need
lots of labor in that direction.
Has anyone on this forum read this book?
>
> చార్వాకుడు యుద్ధంలో విజయుడై వచ్చిన ధర్మరాజుని పట్టుకొని
> బంధుమిత్రులనందర్నీ చంపి ఈ నెత్తుటి కూడు తిని ఏం పాముకుంటావని
> కడిగేస్తాడు. (అడిగినందుకు 'తగినా శిక్ష అనుభవించాడనుకోండి.)
What happens to చార్వాకుడు in this incident?
I remember Jabali's చార్వాకం with Rama at Chitrakoota in which he
admonishes Rama for unwisely staying away from the coronation
(http://www.valmikiramayan.net/ayodhya/sarga108/ayodhya_108_prose.htm).
The arguments put forth by Jabali seemed to me like they have been
assembled in hurry. And when Rama rebuts, the man retracts from his
"atheistic" arguments!
>
> Such questioning has been part of our culture
I remember some of them (gArgi vs. yaj~nyavalkya, the discussion
between Sankara and the chaMDAla, draupadi in dhRtarAshTra's court
etc.). Can you give me some more examples?
> although severely suppressed
> for many centuries.
Examples??? (I can think of yaj~nyavalkya's admonisions to Gargi
"You are asking too much. You should not ask such questions of this
kind. Matipraksih: If you ask too much, your head will fall down just
now. So, do not go beyond permissible limits of logical argument,
because it is inadmissible to ask the cause of the Cause of
everything.")
How do we gauge the severity of the suppression? By the absence of the
record of such debates? By the absence of alternative schools thought?
If a Ramanuja makes it his mission to condemn Sankara's arguments (I
read of this a few years ago; didn't read either of them in original),
would that qualify as Questioning? Or are we talking only of the
"Anti-Establishment" questioning, here?
And more important - was it just suppression or did we give up the
Inquiry and in our pursuit of bhakti mArga?
udy...@aol.com
Hanumantha Rao garu wrote:
>Another famous scientist, Richard Dawkins, wrote a book, "The God Delusion."
>I have not read the book but I read H. Allen Orr's (unfavorable) review of
>it in January 11, 2007 NYRB. Dawkins seems to be an enemy of religion; he
>wants to convert people out of religion and thereby "drive the beast to
>extinction." One of his secular Ten Commandments is "Do not indoctrinate
>your children!" He does not blame just religious extremism, but religion
>itself.
The example cited by Hanumantha Rao garu belongs to a class of attitudes broadly covered
under scientism and materialism. Simply stated, scientism is the belief that the scientific method
is the only or at least the most reliable way of getting at the truth and material entitities are the
most fundamental entities of existence.? It results in a narrow, inward-looking orientation that
effectively blocks the metaphysical from view.
While celebrating scientific inquiry and achievements, one has to submit that scientism itself
in excess could become a dogma leading to a dehumanizing tunnel, devoid of transcendence.
Religion matters,because it opens to us a universe filled with purpose and beauty. Religion and
science often address different questions. Religious inquiry, because it is not limited to material
sources, may draw on a wider range of epistemological sources, or ways of knowing, to address
matters of ultimate meaning in human existence.
Quoting Huston Smith, "Though final answers are unattainable, we can advance toward them as
we advance toward horizons that recede with our every step. In our faltering steps toward the horizon,
we need all the help we can get, so we school ourselves in the myriad of seekers who have pondered
the ultimate questions before us."
Udaya
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lylayer
“ Ap yUhI agar ham~se mil~tE rahE
dEkhiyE Ek din pyAr hO jAyegA!”
Why not I start using a quote/ song, that is lying around on the
desk, which seems to be very much in practice, in writing. I guess
the intent of such usage is to mess up the readers’ minds. :-) It
is o.k. The minds can be re-organized any number of times.
--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, "Hanuma Kodavalla" <hanumak@...>
wrote:
( 18339 )
> I share some of Uday gari's sentiments, but not entirely his
argument. .....
> Weinberg to say this later: "With or
> without religion, you would have good people doing good things and
evil> people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil
things, that takes> religion."
The last sentence can be easily substituted by "For good people to
do evil things it takes science." The word ‘religion’ can be
replaced by -drugs, democracy, capitalism, marriage, -any number of
words.
These are simply quips in lectures and would raise equal laughs
depending on, which audience one is speaking to.
> But
> Weinberg, a Nobel Laureate and a member of the American Academy of
Arts and
> Sciences is surely a responsible scientist and citizen.
> But Dawkins, a Fellow of the Royal Society, is a highly regarded
> scientist and public intellectual.
Is it Marcus Antonius speech, my dear Shakespeare? :-) :-) I like
it. I like it.
"I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.... But Brutus is an
honourable man; so are they all, all honourable men."
Indeed a great speech from the play -Julius Caesar. Pray! Using it
for what effect?
> It'll be unfair, in this context, not to recall Marx, who couldn't
care less> about people's sensitivities in the middle of an
intellectual argument: > "Religion is the opium of the masses." To
add insult to the injury, someone> remarked that Marx was being
unfair - after all, the effects of opium,> unlike that of religion,
are transitory and entirely curable!
Again another couple of jokes. "Religion" can be easily
substituted by "Marxism"
And one may extend the joke if they are in the mood, and say an
overdose of Marxism can cause death.
Death however is not a joke. It is not transient. It is not
reversible. It will be unfair not to mention in this context, that
I read - that in human history, to this date amongst belief related
deaths, Marxism/communism caused largest number of deaths.
(But I must say, it is not Marx’s fault. Marx could not have
anticipated it. Even though Marx is a dishonorable man.)
When Marx's intellect is being so admired, (and offered as proof how
one must view religion ) it is also unfair for me not to wonder,
why Marx who thought so deeply for years about economics, wages and
well being of people, did not seem to care much to earn wages, pay
wages.
Why could Marx not work in the factory of his friend Engels and earn
a decent wage, instead of living off him, looking up Britain's old
economic history, for years, no Marxist would wonder. Perhaps a lot
of them conveniently practice, what Marx himself practiced.
In Marx's biography I read the guy did not pay the servant maid he
employed. It must be too small a matter for his big brain to worry
about.
Why Marx would get his maid pregnant, when his children out of
wedlock, are dying of infections from his skin pustules, Marxists
would not want to write about.
From what I read from his biography by reputed philosophers - Marx
is a lazy scoundrel, who irresponsibly sires children, does not even
work to feed them.
But Marxists like to write - :-) Marx is an honorable man. M loves
to play with his children on Sundays. M instead of his abject
poverty, he is working very hard for others. M is sacrificing
himself for the greater good of all.
> This is almost 25 years ago and I do not recall anything he said
about
> neurology. ....I remember a question from the audience:... the
good doctor
> said: "No. When I am treating a poor patient my religious faith
helps me
> charge him less."
It happens a lot. not to remember substance of the talk, and come
away with the jokes.:-)
Some speakers/writers continue to use this tactic of using their own
jokes or others' jokes while creating an intellectual aura, to
divert, suddenly to leave a message in the joke.
Even so, while one laughs, one should learn to tell the difference
between jokes, facts, arguments and .... :-)
Regards
lyla
udy...@aol.com
Hanumantha Rao garu wrote:
>Here's a passage from Feynman [1], one of the greatest scientists
>of the last century, who BTW, did not oppose religion:
>"It is a great adventure to contemplate the universe, beyond man, to
>contemplate what it would be like without man, as it was in a great part of
>its long history and as it is in a great majority of places. When this
>objective view is finally attained, and the mystery and majesty of matter
>are fully appreciated, to then turn the objective eye back on man viewed as
>matter, to view life as part of this universal mystery of greatest depth, is
>to sense an experience which is very rare, and very exciting."
It was a pleasure to read Hanumantha Rao gari lucid discussion on
science and religion. Alas, very few have the ability or opportunity
to study advanced physics to the extent of appreciating the subtle
nuances of mathematical equations, as Feynman did. Hence,
most of us seek the meaning of life in religious texts and teachings.
Everyone can find something in them to which he or she can accord
ultimate value.
Rabindra Nath Tagore wrote, "A profoundly intimate conception
of the infinite lies in that intensity of our consciousness, which we
can only attain when we realize ultimate value in some ideal of
perfection, when in the realization of some fact of our life we
become aware of an indefinable truth that immensely transcends
it. We, in our human nature, have a hunger for Bhuma (God, the
absolute), for immensity, for something a great deal more than
what we need immediately for the purposes of life."
To be human is to be related to others in space and time.? Hence,
any manifestation of Bhuma would have to occur within human
history. This fact leads to our continuing preoccupation with,
and fixation to, the itihasas and puranas, given their semi-
historical moorings.
Srinivas Nagulapalli
Thanks for the great patience, diligence and effort in sharing
the information. This is quick sharing of few thoughts..
> Presumably religion deals with other kinds of truths. Can we get a
> bit more specific about what they are rather than just say truth?
Certainly. But I don't like to use the word "religion"-its badly
misused and abused. In Indian philosophy this question has been
addressed very exhaustively. Whole commentaries, particularly
Shankara's Bhashyam goes to great length discussing it. From many
specifics, one of them is త్రికాల అబాధి సత్యం. Meaning, truth
that which abides in all three states of existence and
consciousness. It is that which does not change in past, present
or future; and that which does NOT change in waking, dream and
deep sleep states. And lot more too..
> "విశ్వరూపం" మొదలెడుతూ నండూరి రామమోహనరావు, జగత్తు
> అనంతత్వాన్ని భగవద్గీత అంత కవితాత్మకంగా మరే ప్రాచీన
> సాహిత్యమూ వర్ణించలేదంటూ గీతాకారుని ఊహాశక్తిని మెచ్చుకొని,
> వెంటనే, ప్రస్తుత శాస్త్ర విజ్ఞానంతో పోలిస్తే అది చప్పగా,
> పేలవంగా కనిపిస్తుందన్నారు.
నండూరి గారి మాటలే అతి చప్పగా, చాలా పేలవంగా ఉన్నాయి! అంతే
కాదు, వారు గీతను కొంచెమైనా అర్థం చేసుకున్నట్లుగా కూడా
కనిపించదు. జగత్తు అనంతత్వాన్ని కాదు భగవద్గీత
కవితాత్మకంగా వర్ణించింది! స్వస్వరూపాన్ని! వస్తు ప్రపంచాన్ని,
ఎన్నో రంగాలను, క్షేత్రాలనూ అధ్యయనం చేసేదే ప్రస్తుత శాస్త్ర
విజ్ఞానమని మనం పిలిసేదంతానూ. తెలుసుకున్న, లేక తెలుసుకోబడే
వస్తువులను గాక, తెలుసుకునే వాన్ని, అంటే క్షేత్రజ్ఞుని గురించి
చెప్పబడింది గీత. Knowing the knower is what Gita is lot about,
while so called Science is after knowing *about* many things.
So called Science is objective, but Gita's focus is subjective.
ఈ రెంటికీ ముడి పెట్టి, ప్రశంసించడం, విమర్శించడం రెంటికీ
అన్యాయం చేయడమే అవుతుంది.
> నండూరి రామమోహనరావు, "విశ్వదర్శనం"లో ఇలా అన్నారు:
>
> "అయితే, భారతదేశంలో మాత్రం తమ సత్యాన్వేషణ ఫలించిందని,
> తాము అంతిమ సత్యాన్ని - అంటే ఏ ఒక్క సత్యాన్ని కనుగొంటే మిగిలిన
> సమస్తం తెలిసినట్టు కాగలదో ("కస్మిన్ భగవో విజ్ఞాతే
> సర్వమిదం విజ్ఞాతం భవతి" - ముండకోపనిషత్తు) దాన్ని
> తెలుసుకున్నట్టు మన మహర్షులు ప్రకటించారు. బౌద్ధికంగానో,
> భౌతికంగానో కాక అంతర్బుద్ధి (intuition) ద్వారా తాము
> పరమ సత్యాన్ని కనుగొన్నామని వారు చెప్పారు."
>
> Such audacity from our Maharshis seems misplaced - then and now!
Misplaced audacity is as silly as misplaced humility. Quoting
merely a question from the Upanishad but ignoring its own
response and then passing judgement on it, shows much more
misplaced audacity and even shows lack of sincerity! That
MundakOpanishad exhaustively answers that question. What is it?
It eloquently expresses that it is inexpressible!
It beautifully describes that it is indescribable!
It thoughtfully points out that it is beyond all thoughts!
నాయమాత్మా ప్రవచనేన లభ్యో, న మేధయా న బహునా శ్రుతేన.
అవాజ్ఞ్మానసగోచరం etc.,
Beauty of Upanishads is, they *ask* to be left behind to eventually
reach the final understanding! No amount of maps can make one reach
a destination. And no map howsoever done is as perfect as the
real world. So too they say to realize subjective truth even
the so called scriptures have to be left behind at certain stage.
*That* is audacity.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Regards
-Srinivas
Hanuma Kodavalla
A proper reply to this has to wait at least till the next weekend. (I'll add
philosophy to the title:-) But a couple of comments on some unpleasant
accusations.
>నండూరి గారి మాటలే అతి చప్పగా, చాలా పేలవంగా ఉన్నాయి! అంతే
> కాదు, వారు గీతను కొంచెమైనా అర్థం చేసుకున్నట్లుగా కూడా
> కనిపించదు. జగత్తు అనంతత్వాన్ని కాదు భగవద్గీత
> కవితాత్మకంగా వర్ణించింది! స్వస్వరూపాన్ని!
Let others judge the appropriateness of the above comments. But here is how
Nanduri started the book:
"అలనాడు కురుక్షేత్రంలో కౌరవ, పాండవ సేనల మధ్య రథం ఆపి,
అర్జునుడికి తన విశ్వరూపం ప్రదర్శించాడు. దాన్ని వేయి సూర్యుల వెలుగుతో
పోల్చినా చాలదన్నాడు. దేవతలు, రాక్షసులు, భూచరులు, సమస్త చరాచర
ప్రపంచం దానిలో ఏకకాలంలో కనిపిస్తున్న దన్నాడు. దానికి మొదలు, మధ్య,
తుది లేవన్నాడు. భూ గగన దిగంతరమంతా అదేనన్నాడు. ఆది అప్రమేయం,
దేదీప్యమానం, దుర్నీరీకష్యం అన్నాడు.
భగవద్గీత వ్రాసిన కాలం ఏదో మనకు నిర్దిష్టంగా తెలియదుగాని, జగత్తు
అనంతత్వాన్ని అంత కవితాత్మకంగా వర్ణించడం మరి ఏదేశపు ప్రాచీన సాహిత్యం
లోను కనబడదనే చెప్పాలి. గీతాకారుని ఊహాశక్తిని మెచ్చుకోవాలి.
కాని, ఈనాడు సైంటిస్టులు ఆవిష్కరిస్తున్న విశ్వరూపంతో పోలిస్తే ఆనాటి
విశ్వరూపం చప్పగా, పేలవంగా కనిపిస్తుంది. మహాద్భుతం, పరమాశ్చర్యం
అనదగిన విశ్వరూపాన్ని ఖగోళ శాస్త్రజ్ఞులు మనకు చూపిస్తున్నారు."
> Misplaced audacity is as silly as misplaced humility. Quoting
> merely a question from the Upanishad but ignoring its own
> response and then passing judgement on it, shows much more
> misplaced audacity and even shows lack of sincerity!
You have a right to say mine is misplaced audacity. But I do hope you take
back your comment about my lack of sincerity. What I quoted comes from page
23 (అవతారిక) in "విశ్వదర్శనం - భారతీయ చింతన" and I used it in
the context of realizing absolute truth. Nanduri is making a *general*
comment on Indian Philosophers and not specific to that Upanishad. He used
the Sanskrit question in parenthesis - as that version is probably
well-known.
It does not require me to go and quote how that Upanishad actually answered.
But here it is on page 174:
శౌనకుడు అనే జిజ్ఞాసువు అంగిరస మహర్షి వద్దకు వచ్చి అడిగాడు:
"కస్మిన్ భగవో విజ్ఞాతే సర్వమిదం విజ్ఞాతం భవతి": - ఏది తెలుసుకుంటే
సర్వమూ తెలుసుకున్నట్టు అవుతుంది?
అంగిరసుడు, "పరావిద్య, అపరా విద్య అని రెండు రకాలు తెలుసుకోవలసినవి
వున్నాయని బ్రహ్మవిదులు అంటారు. పరావిద్య అంటే పరబ్రహ్మకు సంబంధించిన
జ్ఞానం. అపరా విద్య అంటే లౌకికమైన ధర్మాధర్మాలకు సంబంధించినది.
రెండవ దానికంటె మొదటిది గొప్పది. దాన్ని తెలుసుకున్నవాడు సంసార చక్రం
నుంచి విముక్తుడవుతాడు" అని చెబుతాడు."
BTW, I did not understand whether you agree with Nanduri's statement that
our philosophers declared that they found the *absolute truth*.
Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao
Srinivas Nagulapalli
I hope to clear up the accusations part.
> You have a right to say mine is misplaced audacity. But I do hope
> you take back your comment about my lack of sincerity.
I cannot take back what I already said. I apologise. I didn't know
it could read against writer instead of writing.
My concern is only the writing. I still consider Nanduri's writing
to be atrociously audacious and insincere, even after reading your
quotes. Accusation, (aren't all accusations unpleasant?), is made
by Nanduri's writing comparing Upanishads to present day sciences
and that too cherry picking to suit his theory. It is as brilliant
as comparing apples and oranges.
> BTW, I did not understand whether you agree with Nanduri's
> statement that our philosophers declared that they found the
> *absolute truth*.
What does *absolute truth* mean? Absolute, with respect to what -
time, space or both? But time and space themselves are relative.
What words shall we use to describe it? Indian philosophy simply
declares truth alone is. The national motto of India "satya mEva
jayatE" is from that same Upanishad.
Also, what does it matter whether some body found truth or not?
All it matters is whether their writings helped others' search
for it. Many professed it did, otherwise they would have long been
discarded.
Also, this strayed a lot from the RB charter. If Philosophy is the
topic of interest there are better suited places. Hence this is
my last post on this thread.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Regards
-Srinivas
hanuma_k
<srini_nagul@...> wrote:
> I didn't know it could read against writer instead of writing.
I'm talking only about my writing of course. I checked what I wrote
multiple times and I find your accusation that it lacked sincerity
baseless.
>
> My concern is only the writing. I still consider Nanduri's
> writing to be atrociously audacious and insincere, ...
> Accusation, ... is made by Nanduri's writing comparing
> Upanishads to present day sciences and that too cherry picking
> to suit his theory. It is as brilliant as comparing apples
> and oranges.
>
Unfortunately your accusations about the writings continue. I've a
hard time understanding the basis for your statements. Here's what
Nanduri said:
సైన్సు అన్ని ప్రశ్నలకు సమాధానం ఇవ్వలేదు. ఇవ్వడానికి ప్రయత్నించదు
కూడా. దాని పరిధి పరిమితం. అలాగే మతం. అలాగే తత్వ చింతన. ఈ
మూడూ పరస్పరాశ్రితాలుగా సాగవలసిందే. అప్పటికైనా సంతృప్తికర
సమాధానాలు లభిస్తాయా అన్నది చెప్పలేము. అందుచేత మానవుని
సత్యాన్వేషణ అనంతంగా, నిరంతరంగా సాగవలసిందే.
అయితే, భారతదేశంలో మాత్రం తమ సత్యాన్వేషణ ఫలించిందని, ...
మనదేశంలో ఏ కాలంలో, ఏ విధంగా తత్వాన్వేషణ జరిగిందో
సాధ్యమైనంత సంగ్రహంగాను, అవసరమైనంత సవిస్తరంగాను,
సుబోధకమయ్యేటంత సరళంగాను తెలిజేయడమే ఈ గ్రంథ రచన
ఉద్దేశం."
Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao
Srinivas Nagulapalli
> I'm talking only about my writing of course. I checked what I
> wrote multiple times and I find your accusation that it lacked
> sincerity baseless.
Sincerity I questioned is not with respect to checking of text
multiple times, the materials or even copying diligently. Contempt
prior to investigation is insincere and irrational. Alluding to
misplaced audacity of the writers of Upanishads, *prior* to
investigation of the works is what I question(ed).
> Unfortunately your accusations about the writings continue. I've a
> hard time understanding the basis for your statements.
Criticism is neither unfortunate nor an accusation.
> Here's what Nanduri said:
>"సైన్సు అన్ని ప్రశ్నలకు సమాధానం ఇవ్వలేదు. ఇవ్వడానికి
> ప్రయత్నించదు కూడా. దాని పరిధి పరిమితం. అలాగే మతం. అలాగే
> తత్వ చింతన. ఈ మూడూ పరస్పరాశ్రితాలుగా సాగవలసిందే.
> అప్పటికైనా సంతృప్తికర సమాధానాలు లభిస్తాయా అన్నది చెప్పలేము."
సంతృప్తికర సమాధానాలు లభించడం లభించకపోవడం తరువాత
సంగతి. అసలు సంతృప్తికర సామాధానం అంటే ఏమిటో నిర్దిష్టంగా,
సుస్పష్టంగా చెబితే బాగుండేది. ఇప్పటి దాకా తెలిసింది ఇది అనే అంటాం
కానీ, సంతృప్తి అనేది ఎవ్వరికి, దాన్ని ఎలా కొలుస్తారో అర్థం కాలేదు.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards
-Srinivas
Ramarao Kanneganti
gentle personality :-). I offer my apologies in advance. My intent is not to
denigrate these fine, upstanding netizens who are both sincere in their
arguments. ]
I think there is some difference in the way you both perceive words such as
sincerity. At least one of them is really far from the dictionary
meaning:-). ["Inconceivable? I don't think it means what you think it
means" -- from Princess Bride]
You can accuse Hanuma of being prejudiced since you believe that he showed
contempt prior to investigation. You can accuse him of being closed-minded
since you believe he took sides without looking at all the sides.
You may accuse him of being irrational -- not a strong case, but you can.
Rationality may dictate that Hanuma check facts before he deduces from them,
but only what he believes are germane. As he was quoting, he believed that
he covered those. As you keep emphasizing, you believe he did not, even
though, you did not offer more than your belief. Now, that would be an
interesting discussion.
You cannot accuse him of being insincere, which pertains to the intent of
his argument. That insinuates that he is *knowingly* misleading. Or, he is
not being honest. It could have been the case if you offered some argument
which he ignores or if you offer some fact with he ignores since they are
harmful to his argument. I do not see that to be the case. If you believe it
is, you can offer proof and call him by that rude epithet. As of now, I
cannot see why you call him (or his writing -- as if it had life of its own
to make up its mind, worthy of a Borges :-)) insincere.
That, I guess, is what bothers Hanuma. And, puzzles this onlooker.
--
Rama
----- Original Message -----
From: "Srinivas Nagulapalli" <srini...@yahoo.com>
To: <racch...@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 7:13 PM
Subject: [racchabanda] Re: Not-so-random thoughts on Science and Religion
> --- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, "hanuma_k" <hanumak@...> wrote:
>
>> I'm talking only about my writing of course. I checked what I wrote
>> multiple times and I find your accusation that it lacked sincerity
>> baseless.
>
> Sincerity I questioned is not with respect to checking of text multiple
> times, the materials or even copying diligently. Contempt prior to
> investigation is insincere and irrational. Alluding to misplaced audacity
> of the writers of Upanishads, *prior* to investigation of the works is
> what I question(ed).
>
>> Unfortunately your accusations about the writings continue. I've a hard
>> time understanding the basis for your statements.
>
> Criticism is neither unfortunate nor an accusation.
To Post a message, send it to: racch...@yahoogroups.com
Courtesy: http://www.kanneganti.com/
udy...@aol.com
Hanumantha Rao garu wrote:
>Weisskpof, a world famous late physicist from MIT wanted to convey to
>the layman the trend towards the universality of science - from the
>elementary particle to the living world. (My Goethe's quotation comes
>form it.) The book came out of lectures he gave at the Buckingham
>School in Cambridge, MA.
>Nanduri, Narla, Kodavatiganti - they all deplored the lack of Science
>books in Telugu for the common reader. Alas, the situation hasn't
>changed much. I read that Weisskopf's book is translated into many
>languages. I hope some RB members or their friends get inspiration.
The valuable comments made by Hanumantha Rao garu inevitably lead
to the question--should science usurp the role of philosophy?
It is perhaps preferable to let philosophy and science to play their
complementary and distinct roles. Mixing their functions would be a
disservice to both.
The metaphysics of Plato or Patanjali stirs the imagination in ways different
from those accorded by thinking of the symmetries of subatomic particles
or the gravitational pull of black holes. Philosophy primarily addresses
issues of import to the human dimension which encompasses history,
culture, tradition and individual subjectivity. Science, on the other hand,
is very effective in explaining material phenomena which, however, merely
form the backdrop to the puzzle of human existence.
I agree with Hanumantha Rao garu that there is a need for terminology and
books in Telugu related to both science and philosophy. Their availability
will spark more awareness and discussion of these disciplines.
Udaya ___
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
To Post a message, send it to: racch...@yahoogroups.com
Courtesy: http://www.kanneganti.com/
J. K. Mohana Rao
--- udy...@aol.com wrote:
> The valuable comments made by Hanumantha Rao garu inevitably lead
> to the question--should science usurp the role of philosophy?
>
In the bygone days, the term philosophy ruled supreme.
All sciences were considered philosophy. One of the first
scientific magazines is the Philosophical magazine. Today,
every subject wants to be called a science. So we have
social science and economic science, etc. It is all the
play of time! Regards! - mOhana
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html
Panini
> In the bygone days, the term philosophy ruled supreme.
> All sciences were considered philosophy.
Could that be the reason why one of the highest academic degrees in
sciences is called "Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D)?"
Regards,
Panini
lylayer
wrote:
( 18417)
>
["ఈంచొంచైవబ్లె? ఈ దొణ్త్ థింక్ ఇత్ మీన్స్ వ్హత్ యౌ థింక్ ఇత్
> మీన్స్" -- ఫ్రొం ఫ్రించెస్స్ భ్రిదె]
> ఠత్, ఈ గుఎస్స్, ఇస్ వ్హత్ బొథెర్స్ హనుమ. ఆంద్, పుజ్జ్లెస్ థిస్ ఒన్లూకెర్.
డెలిచిఔస్! ఠత్ ఇస్ అ సించెరెల్య్ గూద్ మొవిఎ తొ బ్రింగ్ ఉప్ వ్హెన్ థెరె ఇస్
సెరిఔస్ స్పర్రింగ్ గొఇంగ్ ఒన్! :-) :-)
ఠె త్రౌబ్లె ఇస్ 'హ్ధ్ోస్ నొత్ సీ మొవిఎస్. "భిగ్ మిస్తకె! భిగ్
మిస్తకె!"
హ్ ఇస్ నొత్ బొథెరెద్. ఛొమె ఓన్! హె ఇస్ దొఇంగ్ అల్రిఘ్త్. "హె ఇస్ అర్గుఇంగ్."
హె షౌల్ద్ జుస్త్ గెత్ అ బసెబల్ల్ బత్ అంద్ హె విల్ల్ థింక్ బెత్తెర్. :-)
ఠె వీక్-ఎంద్ ఇస్ అప్ప్రోచింగ్. ఖృ విల్ల్ గొ ఫినిష్ రీదింగ్ ఒనె మొరె
బూక్. హె చన్ దొ ఇత్. వ్హత్ ఇఫ్ హె దిస్చొవెర్స్ థె ఇన్ఫ్లుఎంచె ఒఫ్
భగవద్గీత ఒన్ ఓప్పెన్హైమెర్. వ్హత్ హప్పెన్స్ థెన్!
--- ఈన్ రచ్చబందయహూగ్రౌప్స్.చొం, "ఝ్. ఖ్. ంఒహన ఋఅఒ" <జ్క్మ్రఒ...>
వ్రొతె:
( 18413)
>
> సాహిత్యములో ప్రార్థనా పద్యాలు - 27
> ఆ కాలములో బేలూరులోని
> (అమరశిల్పి జక్కణ్ణ) చెన్నకేశవస్వామిపై ఒక పద్యము ఒక
> శిలాశాసనములో నున్నది....
అమర శిల్పి జక్కన్న! - " నిలువుమా! నిలువుమా! నీలవేణి! నీ
కనుల నీలి నీడ నా మనసే.... Is that song from that movie?
There are some good songs in that one, aren't there?
Any good :-)religious story about cenna kESava? or the sculpture of
the temple?
Enjoying rb.
Regards
lyla.
J. K. Mohana Rao
--- lylayer <lyl...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> అమర శిల్పి జక్కన్న! - " నిలువుమా! నిలువుమా! నీలవేణి! నీ
> కనుల నీలి నీడ నా మనసే.... Is that song from that movie?
> There are some good songs in that one, aren't there?
>
అవును. ఈ చిత్రాన్ని తెలుగులో, కన్నదములో ఒకే మారు
తీశారు. తెలుగులో నాగేశ్వరరావు, కన్నడములో కళ్యాణ
కుమార్ హీరోలు. రెంటిలోను నాయిక సరోజాదేవి. కన్నడములో
ఇదే మొట్టమొదటి రంగుల చిత్రము! సంగీతము రాజేశ్వర
రావు. మొన్న ఇండియాకు వెళ్ళినప్పుడు బేలూరు, హళేబీడు,
శ్రావణబేలాగోళలకు వెళ్ళాను. బేలూరు గుడిలో ఇంకా
పూజలు జరుగుతున్నాయి. ఇక్కడి విష్ణుమూర్తి విగ్రహము
చాల సుందరమైనది. మరొక విశేషమేమంటే ఈ విగ్రహమును
ఎప్పుడు స్త్రీవేషములోనే (మోహినీ అవతారములో) అలంకరిస్తారు.
శాంతళా అని కన్నడములో ఒక నవల ఉన్నది. అది తెలుగులో
అనువదించబడినదో లేదో నకు తెలియదు. ఈ కాలములోనే
రామానుజాచార్యులు కర్ణాటక్ములో మేల్కోటె వద్ద కొన్ని
సంవత్సరాలు గడిపారు. విష్ణువర్ధనుడు హోయసల
రాజ్య స్థాపకుడు అని చెప్పవచ్చును. ఇతడు మొదట
జైనుడు, రామానుజాచార్యులు ఇతనిని వైష్ణవుడిగా
మార్చెను. కాని ఇతని భార్య శాంతళాదేవి జైన
మతస్థురాలిగనె ఉండినది. అందువలననేమో ఇతనికి
సర్వమత సామరాస్యముపై మోజు!
- మోహన
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html
Srinivas Nagulapalli
> intent of his argument.
How to stop accusing him when I did not start? Criticism of
writing is different matter.
> That insinuates that he is *knowingly* misleading. Or, he is not
> being honest. It could have been the case if you offered some
> argument which he ignores or if you offer some fact with he
> ignores since they are harmful to his argument. I do not see that
> to be the case. If you believe it is, you can offer proof and call
> him by that rude epithet. As of now, I cannot see why you call him
> (or his writing -- as if it had life of its own to make up its
> mind, worthy of a Borges :-)) insincere.
Don't we track and talk about driving records, however impeccable
or terrible, and not driver's records ? Don't we have malpractice
suits, not practitioner's ? Don't we annually review performance
and not performer ? Same difference for writing and writer. May be
that performance review is less of a review and more of a dog fight
for pay raise.
> That, I guess, is what bothers Hanuma. And, puzzles this onlooker.
I hope not. If it still bothers Hanuma gAru, it doesn't matter what
I consider as sincerity in writing. My sincere apologies.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards
-Srinivas
Hemantha Kumar
My usual "Ramayanamlo Pidakala Veta" :-)))
Best wishes
"H"emantha Kumar Pamarthy
lylayer <lyl...@aol.com> wrote:
<snip>
The trouble is 'H' does not see movies. "Big mistake! Big mistake!"
H is not bothered. Come On! He is doing alright. "He is arguing."
He should just get a baseball bat and he will think better. :-)<snip>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
To Post a message, send it to: racch...@yahoogroups.com
Courtesy: http://www.kanneganti.com/
Sudesh Pillutla
I always wanted to ask this question. Who did "pidakala veta" in
Ramayanam and when?
Sorry for my intrusion into this major play of words.
Thanks
Sudesh
--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, Hemantha Kumar <andhraputhra@...>
wrote:
>
> There is a confusion here, please. Which "H"?
>
> My usual "Ramayanamlo Pidakala Veta" :-)))
>
> Best wishes
> "H"emantha Kumar Pamarthy
>
J. K. Mohana Rao
మనము విజ్ఞానము మతము ఈ రెంటిపై చర్చిస్తున్నాము గదా,
ఇప్పుడు మనము వీటికి సంబంధించిన ఒక ముఖ్యమైన
సంఘటనపై భావాలను పంచుకొంటే బాగుంటుందేమో?
అన్ని భారతీయులవలె తెలుగువారికి కూడ రాముడు, రామాయణము
అంటే చాల ఇష్టము. రాముడు లంకకు వెళ్ళినప్పుడు వంతెన
కట్టాడా, ఆ లంక శ్రీలంకయేనా, ఆ సేతువు ఇప్పుడు ఆడమ్స్
బ్రిడ్జి అనబదేదేనా అన్నది ఒక కొఱకరాని కొయ్య ఐనది.
ప్రభుత్వము, ఎన్నికలు, భారతీయుల భవిష్యత్తు దీనిపైన
ఆధారపడి ఉన్నది. నిజముగానే సైన్సుకు రిలిజియనుకు
మధ్య వంతెన రామసేతువేనా?
- మోహన
____________________________________________________________________________________
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
udy...@aol.com
Mohana Rao garu wrote:
>In the bygone days, the term philosophy ruled supreme.
>All sciences were considered philosophy.
As Indicated by Mohana Rao garu, the connotation of the term
philosophy has changed somewhat over time. Currently, it stands
for the study of a range of topics that includes methods of gaining
knowledge, foundations of ethics, nature of truth, and the meaning
of existence. Science emphasizes verification of concepts and
theories through experiment or observation. This is the accepted
mode of study in disciplines such as physics, chemistry and biology.
Udaya
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
To Post a message, send it to: racch...@yahoogroups.com
Courtesy: http://www.kanneganti.com/
Hemantha Kumar
Best wishes
Hemantha Kumar
Sudesh Pillutla <sudeshp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Dear "H" garu,
I always wanted to ask this question. Who did "pidakala veta" in
Ramayanam and when?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
To Post a message, send it to: racch...@yahoogroups.com
Courtesy: http://www.kanneganti.com/
lylayer
> <snip>
> The trouble is 'H' does not see movies. "Big mistake! Big
mistake!"
--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, Hemantha Kumar
<andhraputhra@...> wrote:
( 18424 )
>
> ఠెరె ఇస్ అ చొన్ఫుసిఒన్ హెరె, ప్లీసె. వ్హిచ్ "హ్"?
హి హెమంథ!
హప్ప్య్ వినాయక చవితి !
ఓబ్విఔస్ల్య్ యౌ చన్ నొత్ బె థత్ - 'హ్.' :-) అంద్ యౌ క్నౌ ఇత్. :-) ఔ
సీన్ ఉంప్తీన్ మొవిఎస్.
డిద్ణ్త్ వె రెచెంత్ల్య్ రీద్ అంద్ ఎంజొయ్, ఫ్రొం యౌర్ పెన్, థత్ ఫచ్తూల్ యెత్
పోతిచ్ ప్రొసె అబౌత్ తౌరింగ్ తల్కిఎస్; థె వల్క్ ఇన్ - ఔత్ దూర్ -సంద్
ఫ్లూరెద్ థీతెర్ ఎకష్పెరిఎంచె ఇన్ ఈందీ! ఈ అం అన్ అల్ల్ కింద్స్ ఒఫ్ మొవిఎ
ఫన్, అంద్ ఈ లొవె 'నాగిణ్ /హెమంథ కుమర్ ముసిచ్, బుత్ థె మినుతె ఈ
హీర్ అ స్నకె ఇస్ స్వింగింగ్ తొ ఇత్ ఇన్ థె విచినిత్య్, ఈ విల్ల్ చ్రీతె సుచ్
అ చొమ్మొతిఒన్ , బెలిఎవె మె! -నొత్ జుస్త్ మె, బుత్ నొ ఒనె ఎల్సె విల్ల్ బె
వత్చింగ్ థె మొవిఎ ఒన్ థె స్చ్రీన్.
ణౌ అంద్ థెన్ ఈ బ్రింగ్ ఇన్ స్నకెస్ ఇంతొ అ వెర్సె ఈ వ్రితె, అంద్ థె నెకష్త్
దయ్ ఈ సీ చౌప్లె ఒఫ్ గర్దెన్ స్నకెస్, ఈ అం రీద్య్ తొ ఫైంత్ అంద్ పుత్ థె
హౌసె ఒన్ సలె.
ఆబౌత్ థె ఉఎస్తిఒన్ ఒఫ్ ‘హ్’ - ఒర్ మె, 'హ్ధ్్ిస్ 'ఖొదవల్ల
హనుమంత ఋఅఒ.'
హనుమంత ఋఅఒ గరు అస్కెద్ తొ బె చల్లెద్ ఖృ ఒన్ ర్బ్ అంద్ ఈ క్నౌ థత్,
బుత్ ఈ లికె తొ చల్ల్ హిం హ్, వ్హెన్ ఈ లికె హిం :-) శొ ఈ దొ. హె హస్ నొత్
ప్రొతెస్తెద్ యెత్.
ఓచ్చసిఒనల్ల్య్ ఉస్ :-) హుమన్స్ మకె థె మిస్తకె ఒఫ్ తల్కింగ్ తొ హ్ ఒన్
ర్బ్. :-)
ఒర్ ఫున్ �€" వె హిత్ హిం విథ్ అ -tamulapaaku. ఠెన్ హె హిత్స్ ఉస్ బచ్క్
విథ్ అ talupu . ఈ దొణ్త్ క్నౌ అబౌత్ యౌ, ఈ అం అ ప్రెత్త్య్ దెలిచతె
పెర్సొన్, అంద్ ఈ ప్రెఫెర్ tamulapAkulu తొ talupu cekkalu అల్ల్
థె తిమె. భుత్ అస్ దెలిచతె అస్ ఇ అం, ఇఫ్ సొమె ఒనె బ్రింగ్స్ తలుపు
చెక్కలు, ఈ జుస్త్ చన్ ఉప్రూత్ అ వ్హొలె భన్యన్ త్రీ ఇన్ సెచొంద్స్, అంద్ గొ
బల్లిస్తిచ్స్. ఈత్ హప్పెన్స్ ఎవెన్ ఇఫ్ ఈ లికె థె పెర్సొన్. ఈత్ హప్పెన్స్ ఎవెన్
ఇఫ్ అ పెర్సొన్ బ్రింగ్స్ lEta tamulapaakulu సొమెతిమెస్. శుచ్ అరె
మూద్స్. ఠెయ్ అరె వొలతిలె.
ఆంద్ సొ ఇత్ గోస్. ఈ లికె హ్ అ లొత్. హె ఔఎస్ మె అ దిన్నెర్ అంద్ ఎవెన్ ఇఫ్ ఒనె
ఒఫ్ ఉస్ లీవెస్ ఇన్ థె మిద్ద్లె, ఒర్ గెత్స్ థ్రౌన్ ఔత్ ఒఫ్ థె రెస్తౌరంత్, హె
స్తిల్ల్ హస్ తొ పయ్ ఫొర్ ఇత్.
వె, హెమంథ! ఒన్ థె ఒథెర్ హంద్, అరె మొరె లికెల్య్ తొ హుం అంద్
సింగ్ లికె సొ,
“
uhuhu, huhu, hUhoo
na tum~ hame jAnO
na ham~ tumhe jAnE
uhuhu huhu hoo
magar lag~tA,
hai kuC aisA
merA ham~ dam~ mil gayA!”
ఎవెన్ ఇఫ్ వె అరె ఒన్ దిఫ్ఫెరెంత్ చొంతినెంత్స్ అంద్ అరె ద్రింకింగ్ చంపగ్నె:-)
ఒన్ దిఫ్ఫెరెంత్ సంద్య్ బీచెస్.
ఏంజొయ్
ల్య్ల.
హప్ప్య్ ఫెస్తివితిఎస్ తొ అల్ల్ ర్బితెస్! ళొవె యౌ అల్ల్ !
టొ ఫొస్త్ అ మెస్సగె, సెంద్ ఇత్ తొ: రచ్చబందయహూగ్రౌప్స్.చొం
Courtesy: http://www.kanneganti.com/
Hanuma Kodavalla
> lylayer <lyl...@aol.com> Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:17 am
> The week-end is approaching. KHR will go finish reading
> one more book. He can do it.
I see this thread is active even while I was away, not reading books or even
book reviews, but just working.
> What if he discovers the influence of bhagavadgIta on Oppenheimer. What
happens then!
I've missed Lyla gAri's point entirely! Although family and friends disagree
on the extent, Gita's influence on Oppenheimer is common knowledge to anyone
even remotely familiar with the history of modern physics.
(I.I. Rabi, a Nobel laureate and Oppenheimer's friend, remarked in his
memorial address that one of the reasons for Oppenheimer's lack of
discoveries commensurate with his brilliance might be his interest in
religion, in particular Hindu religion, which resulted in a feeling for the
mystery of the universe that surrounded him like a fog!)
> The trouble is 'H' does not see movies. "Big mistake! Big mistake!"
I agree. Amazing, we two agree on something! :-) Movies and many other finer
pleasures of life, as my closer circle would be glad to recount, are missed.
The dilemma in making such choices is beautifully captured by Yeats -
http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-choice-2/ .
How does one reconcile these two aspirations - perfection of the life and of
the work? A very smart woman like Rita Levi-Montalcini [1], simply dissolves
the problem by subverting it - by praising imperfection!
I'm still trying to learn from women and poets - to love life whenever
possible:
వీలైనప్పుడల్లా జీవితాన్ని ప్రేమిస్తాం
మీనార్లను లేపుతాం, మైమరచి నర్తిస్తాం,
అమరవీరులకోసం అశ్రువులు తర్పిస్తాం,
వీలైనప్పుడల్లా జీవితాన్ని ప్రేమిస్తాం.
పట్టుపురుగు నించి దారాలు దొంగిలించి
పైన ఆకాశాన్నీ, కింద కంచెనీ నేస్తాం.
తోట తలుపులు తెరిచి, దివోసుందరిగా వికసించమని
మల్లిపూవును మహానగరంలోకి నడిపిస్తాం.
వీలైనప్పుడల్లా జీవితాన్ని ప్రేమిస్తాం.
వలసపోయిన చోట వర్ధమాన వృక్షాల్ని పెంచుతాం.
వలసపోయిన చోట మృతవీరుల బీజాలు నాటుతాం.
పిల్లంగోవిలోకి సుదూర వర్ణాల్ని ఊదుతాం,
నడవలోని ధూళిపై హయహేషని చిత్రిస్తాం,
శిలారూపంలో మాపేర్లని చెక్కుతాం.
తటిల్లతా! చీకటిని వెలిగించు.
కటిక చీకటిని వెలిగించు.
వీలైనప్పుడల్లా జీవితాన్ని ప్రేమిస్తాం."
- ఇస్మాయిల్.
Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao
Notes:
[1] "In Praise of Imperfection: My Life and Work," by Rita Levi-Montalcini.
She received the 1986 Nobel prize for medicine, along with Stanley Cohen,
for her discovery of the nerve growth factor.
Hemantha Kumar
With only about 260 mails to wade through, you may see me more on RB again. :-)))
Best wishes
Hemantha Kumar
lylayer <lyl...@aol.com> wrote:
> lylayer <lylayfl@...> wrote:
> <snip>
> The trouble is 'H' does not see movies. "Big mistake! Big
mistake!"
Hanuma Kodavalla
I'm late. Very late. Sorry.
> What happens to చార్వాకుడు in this incident?
Gets killed!
> That reminded me of a book by Vakati Panduranga Rao - దిక్సూచి
> Has anyone on this forum read this book?
Thank you for mentioning the book. I hope you write more about it.
I just got it. One comment, after a quick flip-through, actually a request for anyone writing in Telugu on Science - please write proper names not just in Telugu but in English as well. Everyone knows ఐన్స్టయిన్ and హెయ్సన్బర్గ్ but not జోసఫ్ గూడవేజు! The reader should be able to go and learn more about what/whom you are writing about. Proper citation might be too much to expect but at least state the name unambiguously.
Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao
udy...@aol.com
>Since then (i.e. the time of Francis Bacon) science had certainly
flourished,
>whether philosophy did or not - opinions vary. Science advanced while
>staying away from the fundamental questions of philosophy - What's the
>meaning of life? What's mind and how does it relate to brain? And such.
Whether philosophy has progressed or not over time is indeed an
interesting point raised by Hanumantha Rao garu, for example on
questions such as the real meaning of life, or the ultimate purpose
of our existence. Only by persistently asking such questions, one
gradually learns that life has for each of us whatever meaning we
severally choose to give it.
The purpose of one's existence is constituted by the ends to
which the individual is, consciously or unconsciously, devoted. At any
given time, one may pursue a single overriding purpose while another
may seek a number of different ends, which may or may not be
harmonized with each other. While it is tempting to show that all these
diverse objectives can really be reduced to one, the realization sets in
that there is no one end that is common to all individuals, not even
happiness. And thus the inquiry into the purpose of our existence
dissolves into the question 'How ought we to live?'
This is merely one instance of how philosophy progresses from one
question to another, often before the earlier one is fully answered.
Broadly speaking, what philosophy offers to mankind is an adventure
in thinking whose value is hard to measure in practical terms.
Our world becomes wider and our imagination richer by examining
the lives of philosophers and the procession of their thoughts,
whether we agree with their conclusions or not.
> తెలుగులో ఫిలాసఫీ మీదా సైన్సు మీదా చెప్పుకోదగ్గవి పట్టుమని పది
>పుస్తకాలు కూడా లేవు.....ఆలోటుని కాస్తో కూస్తో తీర్చడానికి బాగా కృషి
>చేసేవాళ్ళని గుర్తుతెచ్చుకోవడం ధర్మం. వాడ్రేవు చినవీరభద్రుడు
>"సత్యాన్వేషణ" పేరుతో పాశ్చాత్య తత్త్వవేత్తల మూలగ్రంథాలలో
>కొన్ని భాగాలను అనువదించి పరిచయం చేశారు.
ఈ విషయము తెలియజేసినందుకు హనుమంత రావు గారికి ధన్యావాదములు.
పుస్తకము యొక్క ఇతర వివరములు, అనగా, ప్రకాశకులు, సంవత్సరము,
దొరికే చోటు, తెలుపమని మనవి.
ఉదయ
************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
To Post a message, send it to: racch...@yahoogroups.com
Courtesy: http://www.kanneganti.com/
Hanuma Kodavalla
> పుస్తకము యొక్క ఇతర వివరములు, అనగా, ప్రకాశకులు, సంవత్సరము,
> దొరికే చోటు, తెలుపమని మనవి.
http://www.avkf.org/BookLink/display_author_books.php?author_id=119
"సత్యాన్వేషణ: పాశ్చాత్య తత్త్వశాస్త్ర పరిచయం - ఎంపిక చేసిన కొన్ని
రచనలు," వాడ్రేవు చినవీరభద్రుడు, ద్వితీయ ముద్రణ, నవంబరు 2004.
Published by Emesco Books, Eluru Road, Vijayawada-2, Phone: 0866 257 7498.
భారతీయ తత్త్వశాస్త్ర పరిచయం - "ఆత్మాన్వేషణ" పేరుతో - చేయబోతున్నానని
అన్నారు అయిదేళ్ళ క్రితం - పై పుస్తకానికి ముందుమాటలో. అదింకా వచ్చినట్లు
లేదు.
> one gradually learns that life has for each of us whatever meaning
> we severally choose to give it...
On that happy note, let us end the thread with a Danish philosopher and a
Telugu poet:
"It doesn't occur to me at this moment to say more; another time, perhaps
tomorrow, I may have more to say, but "always the same thing and about the
same," for only gypsies, robber gangs and swindlers follow the adage that
where a person has once been he is never to go again."
-- Stages on Life's Way (1845), Kierkgaard.
"పాదాలమధ్యపడి నలిగిన ఇసుకరేణువులు
ఇక్కడ కూరుకుపోయిన విషాద వసంతాల మీద
జ్ఞాపకం లోని ఆశల్ని రేపినపుడు
ఈ నిరపేక్ష అన్వేషణ ఆరంభమయింది.
అసందర్భ వర్తమాన ప్రగాఢ నిద్రలోంచి లేచి
సరస్వతిలో తిరిగొచ్చిన మాయాబజార్లో వెతికాను
వెనకెప్పుడో అర్థంకాక వదిలేసిన పుస్తకాల
పుటలన్నీ వ్యర్థంగా తిరగేశాను.
మిగిలిన స్నేహితుల ముఖాలమీద మెదిలే
అస్పష్టత లోతుల్లోకి తలుపులు తట్టకుండా ప్రవేశించి చూశాను
విసుగు లేకుండా పునరావృత్తమయ్యే కోరికలకి
మరోసారి యవ్వనోద్రేకంతో ప్రతిస్పందించాను
ఎలక్ట్రానిక్ ఉద్వేగాల రణగొణ ధ్వనుల మధ్య
రహదారుల్లో అలా తిరిగాను.
"జ్ఞాపకం
గతానికి మనం అన్వయించే కల్పనాశక్తి"
అని అర్థమయ్యేసరికి
పాదాల మీద
ఇసుకరేణువులు మిగల్లేదు.
తాను దొంగిలించిన వస్తువులకు విలువేమీ లేదని
గ్రహించిన దొంగలా తిరిగి వచ్చా
మరో చోట, మరొకందుకు
ఈ పయనం కొనసాగించడానికి."
-- "చావుల మయం" (విశాఖపట్నంలో శ్మశానవాటిక), సి.వి. సుబ్బారావు.
"చైతన్య దేహళి" (ఇరవైయవ శతాబ్దపు తెలుగు కవితా సంపుటి) నుండి,
డాక్టర్ కల్లూరి శ్యామల సంకలనం.
Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao
svrahul
thought provoking ideas.
Recently I was watching one of Joseph Campbell's videos on mythology.
One of the statements that intrigued me was "Today's science is
tomorrow's mythology". Sounds irrational on the first instance.
However if we give the benefit of doubt to the professor and spend
some time, it puts science in different perspective.
Philosophy was (is) the result of human searching for the truth. When
our ancestors searched and found answers (??) they wanted to
communicate these abstract truths in a form of story. It gave birth to
mythology.
While human understanding is developing on material aspects of life,
we are still searching for answers related to fundamentals of life -
"The purpose", "Past", "Present" and "Future". While we are still
searching, are we reinventing the wheel by not looking at our
mythology? A rational (Re) interpretation of human mythology can give
lot of insight into the science of Philosophy.
For anybody interested in this subject, I suggest reading / watching
Joseph Campbell. I found his interpretations of world
mythologies(especially Indian mythology) very interesting. His
explanations and references to the cycles of universe and time in
Indian mythology definitely provoke interesting questions.
I hope my thoughts are not so random.
Rahul V Suryadevara
udy...@aol.com
>Recently I was watching one of Joseph Campbell's videos on mythology.
>One of the statements that intrigued me was "Today's science is
>tomorrow's mythology". Sounds irrational on the first instance.
>However if we give the benefit of doubt to the professor and spend
>some time, it puts science in different perspective.
times was developed as a science through the observation of correlations
between the happenings on earth and the movements of the stars and planets
and the sun and moon. In the hands of capable astrologers, even now
accurate predictions are made using this ancient science, although some
would regard it as a myth.
Udaya
************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
To Post a message, send it to: racch...@yahoogroups.com
Courtesy: http://www.kanneganti.com/
svrahul
Thank you for relating to my thinking.
I think our early truth seekers even tried to study the astronomy. It
is quite possible that the application of this space exploration
through contemplation and primitive observations (without
sophisticated space telescopes) was limited to the astrological
purposes as we are seeing today.
In the same lines of your explanation, I find even human science like
Yoga originates from our ancient philosophy. All chakras being related
to various divine entities is another example for conjunction of
Philosophy, mythology and science.
Raul V Suryadevara
Udaya garu Wrote:_____
udy...@aol.com
>I think our early truth seekers even tried to study astronomy. It
>is quite possible that the application of this space exploration
>through contemplation and primitive observations (without
>purposes as we are seeing today.
in the region of present-day southern Iraq, and then spread east
and west. In India, it was modified and adapted to the Vedic
culture. For example, while using the 12 prevailing signs of the
zodiac, 27 nakshatras were included in the sub-systems of
interpretation. The result was a more accurate system of timing
the unfolding conditions of one's life.
>In the same lines of your explanation, I find even human science like
>Yoga originates from our ancient philosophy. All chakras being related
>to various divine entities is another example for conjunction of
>Philosophy, mythology and science.
gaining favor. One's life force is said to travel throughout the body in
energetic pathways called "nadis." Where the nadis intersect, they
form a "chakra." The human energetic system has seven chakras. Each
chakra affects specific organs and mental states. Generally, a chakra
affects the area of the body in which it is located. It is said that yoga
postures can open the chakras to improve energy circulation, and
subsequently our state of health.
Hanuma Kodavalla
> Suryadevara garu wrote:
>>I think our early truth seekers even tried to study astronomy. It
>>is quite possible that the application of this space exploration
>>through contemplation and primitive observations (without
>>sophisticated space telescopes) was limited to astrological
>>purposes as we are seeing today.
> In India, it was modified and adapted to the Vedic culture....
> The result was a more accurate system of timing
> the unfolding conditions of one's life.
Gloucester: "These late eclipses in the sun and moon portend no good to
us...."
Edmunds: "This is the excellent foppery of the world, that, when we are sick
in fortune - often the surfeits of our own behavior - we make guilty of our
disasters the sun, the moon, and the stars; as if we were villains on
necessity, fools by heavenly compulsion, knaves, thieves, and treachers by
spherical predominance, drunkards, liars, and adulterers by an enforc'd
obedience of planetary influence, and all that we are evil in, by a divine
thrusting on. An admirable evasion of whoremaster man, to lay his goatish
disposition on the charge of a star! My father compounded with my mother
under the dragon's tail; and my nativity was under Ursa Major; so that it
follows, I am rough and lecherous. Fut, I should have been that I am, had
the maidenliest star in the firmament twinkled on my bastardizing."
-- Shakespeare in "King Lear," Act I, Scene II.
Four hundred years after Shakespeare, in 2002, the University Grants
Commission of India, apparently at the behest of the ruling BJP, recommended
teaching astrology and Vedic sciences in our universities!
> 27 nakshatras were included in the sub-systems of interpretation.
It seems Arabs, Chinese and Hindus have the same concept. "అరబ్బులు ఈ
నక్షత్రాలను మంజిల్ అంటారు. అంటే విశ్రాంతి తీసుకునే బస అని అర్థం.
చైనీయులు Hsiu అన్నారు. ఆమాటకు రాత్రి బసచేసే సత్రం అని అర్థం. హిందువులు
ఈ 27 నక్షత్రాలూ చంద్రుడి భార్యలనీ, ఒక్కొక్క రాత్రి ఒక్కొక్కతె ఇంట్లో
గడుపుతాడనీ చమత్కరించారు." [1]
వీటితోనేనా మనకో మంచి సామెత ఉంది?
చిత్త చిత్తగించి స్వాతి చల్లచేసి, విశాఖ విసరకుంటే, అనురాధలో అడిగినంత
వండుతాను అన్నదట వరి.
>>through contemplation and primitive observations (without
>>sophisticated space telescopes)
టెలెస్కోపులూ కంప్యూటర్లూ లేకుండా ఇన్ని విషయాలు ఎలా కనుక్కున్నారబ్బా అని
ఆశ్చర్యపోవడం సహజమే. కాని:
""క్రియాసిద్ధిస్సత్వ్త్వే భవతి మహతాం నోపకరణే" అన్నట్లు ఉపకరణాలేమీ
లేకుండానే గడ్డాలు పెంచుకున్న మహర్షులూ, సన్యాసులూ దివ్యదృష్టితో సమస్త
సంగతులూ గ్రహించగలిగి ఉంటారని మాత్రం భ్రమపడకండి," అంటూ ఆరువేల
సంవత్సరాల క్రితం వాడిన పనిముట్ల గురించి మహీధర నళినీమోహన్ [1]
వర్ణించారు.
Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao
Notes:
[1] "కేలెండర్ కథ," మహీధర నళినీమోహన్
PS: Let me take this opportunity to plead to Visalandhra: Please print
important works of this sort on decent paper. Double the price if need be,
but don't be so cheap.
Hanuma Kodavalla
> one can find evidence to both sides of the belief in fortune
> telling based on heavenly bodies that Shakespeare might
> have entertained.
Yes, of course. I didn't quote Shakespeare to bring his authority to the
table but only to articulate my side of the belief with eloquence that I
myself do not possess. Which side is true cannot be determined by the
writings of the playwright as it requires some scientific experiments.
Astrology and astronomy may have some common beginnings, but gradually and
IMO for the betterment of the humanity and for the great relief of the
astronomy community, they have diverged and now astronomy is a well-regarded
science while astrology is considered one of the popular pseudo sciences.
> udy...@aol.com Sat 10/6/2007 1:58 PM
> In the hands of capable astrologers, even now accurate predictions
> are made using this ancient science, ...
I wonder what these capable astrologers are doing when we are hit with
tsunamis, earthquakes and wars. Wars? That reminds me of an essay by
Kodavatiganti Kutumba Rao [1], I first read 20+ years ago - where I first
heard of JBS Haldane.
Haldane, a well-known British biologist and geneticist, maverick, member of
the British Communist Party, famous Science popularizer, in later life an
Indian citizen who helped foster some of the biological research in our
country, was a keen experimenter, willing to expose himself to danger. (As
per his will, after his death, his body was given to Rangaraya Medical
College in Kakinada.) He is generally quoted, by us unbiased Telugus:-), as
saying that amongst Indian languages Telugu was best suited to be the
national language! He was very curious about consanguineous marriages -
prohibited in the North but very common in the South - both by tradition!
(మామ/అత్త/అక్క కూతుర్ని చేసుకోవడం మా ప్రకాశం జిల్లా ప్రాంతం లో మామూలే.)
He initiated research into genetic effects on the progeny of those
marriages.
Anyway, the challenge Haldane posed to the astrologers was this: Take the
horoscopes of the soldiers in the army, and since a good percentage of them
will die or get injured in a war, predict *when* the war arrives. I do not
think any competent astrologers took that challenge.
Haldane was not being facetious. In his essay, "Science and Theology As
Art-Forms" [2], he examines the religious beliefs in earnest. He refers to
some study by Galton on prayers. First I thought this was not serious. But
recently, I came across an essay, "Induction and Intuition in Scientific
Thought," by Peter Medawar [3], who received the 1960 Nobel for Medicine for
his work on tissue transplantation. Medawar praises Francis Galton's 1872
investigation, "Statistical Inquiries into the Efficacy of Prayer," for its
critical scientific temper. It indeed is, as we can now read at
http://galton.org/essays/1870-1879/galton-1872-fortnightly-review-efficacy-p
rayer.html
If Astrology is a matter of personal belief - like my friend who has fixed
her cesarean time to coincide with certain auspicious alignment of the
heavenly objects, we need not make a big deal. But if UGC, of all the
agencies, sponsors Astrology, one must ask the professors to make some
predictions - predictions that can be verified.
Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao
Notes:
[1] "కళలు - శాస్త్రీయ విజ్ఞానం," లో "జ్ఞానమూ - ఆచరణా." కొడవటిగంటి
కుటుంబరావు.
[2] "On Being the Right Size and Other Essays," by JBS Haldane, Oxford
University Press, 1985.
[3] "Pluto's Republic," by Peter Medawar, Oxford University Press, 1982.
Hanuma Kodavalla
> and the 'scientific method' as the one proven route to knowledge. However,
> the verification principle itself is a pseudoproposition for it cannot be
> verified by application of any other criterion and is therefore
self-refuting.
> Not all avenues of knowledge are amenable to testing by the verification
principle.
Are there other principles? Isn't it the claim that Astrology is a kind of
*Scientific* Knowledge?
Neither the Vienna Circle's verification nor Karl Popper's falsification is
*the* defining criteria for a scientific hypothesis. These problems arise
when one tries to formalize scientific method. There doesn't seem to be
*the* scientific method. However, when one makes a scientific hypothesis,
one is also responsible for testing using several experiments and be willing
to modify or even reject the hypothesis based on the results.
The problem with verification principle in general is that any number of
experiments that agree with the hypothesis do not necessarily prove it. For
example, "All men are mortal" is a hypothesis and we observe every man is
mortal, but that does not mean this is true because there might come a man
who is immortal! Do we then abandon the principle entirely? Or is there some
benefit to *tentatively* accept the hypothesis because it seems to
accurately predict that men are mortal, till it is falsified?
Without going into deep epistemological issues (as my knowledge of them is
shallow), when a hypothesis - "Astrologers can predict earthly events based
on the movements in the heavens" - is made, shall we accept it simply based
on faith? Or is there some other avenue to explore its veracity? What do the
UGC-appointed astrology professors at the University say?
Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao
Hanuma Kodavalla
> Yes, Astrology is claimed as a kind of Science, just as much as
> Meteorology is claimed....
> Before writing, I checked my astrology to see if my stars are well
> aligned! Just kidding ...
Before responding, I wanted to make sure I have some basic idea of what
Meteorology is, so on my way to work today, I stopped by the Bellevue
Regional Library and picked up a couple of basic books on the subject.
What a fascinating history this young science has! In the set of initial
conditions and their measurements, the understanding of physics behind the
atmosphere, the mathematical equations and the computer models - within a
matter of a century what a change - from art to science! Yes, we can't make
*accurate* predictions, and we will never be able to even with all the power
of the modern computers, but is there a doubt about its steady advance in
prediction? All the jokes on the weathermen aside, modern life critically
depends on weather forecast.
(To get a glimpse of the role of computers in numerical weather forecasting
and the multi-faceted genius of John von Neumann, see the oral history
interview with Philip Thompson at http://www.cbi.umn.edu/oh/pdf.phtml?id=267
.)
On the other hand, with Astrology, the bizarre initial conditions - like the
dates of birth of a prospective couple - to predict how good their married
life will be, the unscientific nature of its measurements and deficient
corroboration, lack of generally accepted scientific principles - how is
this science? The only thing common between Astrology and Meteorology is -
they both forecast!
> "కాదు అని కొట్టి పారవేసే మన దేశవాళీ హేతువాదులలో బహుశా
> ఐన్స్టయిన్ కన్న, డేవిడ్ బాం కన్నా, ఫ్రిత్జ్ కాప్రా కన్నా గొప్ప
> సైంటిస్టులున్నారేమో."
"తెలుగునాట ఇటు మతం గురించి, అటు సైన్సు గురించీ అధికారయుతంగా, అందరికీ
అర్థమయ్యేటట్లుగా చెప్పగలిగిన అతికొద్దిమంది మేధావులలో ఒకరైన" వాకాటి
పాండురంగారావు గారి ముందర నాలాంటి అనామకుడు ఏం చెప్పగలడు గాని, దాదాపు
రెండు వందలమంది శాస్త్రజ్ఞులు (Medawar, Chandrasekhar లాంటి కొందరు
Nobel Laureatesతో సహా) 1975లో "The Humanist" పత్రికలో చేసిన ప్రకటన
చదవండి:
``One would imagine, in this day of widespread enlightenment and education,
that it would be unnecessary to debunk beliefs based on magic and
superstition. Yet acceptance of astrology pervades modern society. We are
especially disturbed by the continued uncritical dissemination of
astrological charts, forecasts and horoscopes by media and by otherwise
reputable newspapers, magazines and book publishers. This can only
contribute to the growth of irrationalism and obscurantism. We believe that
the time has come to challenge directly and forcefully, the pretentious
claims of astrological charlatans.''
Now, thanks to the "India Shining" party, this has spread to higher
institutes of learning, with precious resources allocated to its practice,
in a country that after 60 years of independence cannot provide its children
basic education. That is outrageous.
Kiran Kumar Chava
please....
change the tile to something more meaningful :)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
To Post a message, send it to: racch...@yahoogroups.com
Courtesy: http://www.kanneganti.com/
Hanuma Kodavalla
> In "Riot," a novel by Shashi Tharoor, ... We have science and we have
religion.
> Sometimes we can't tell the difference ...
I was reading a book this wekeend and let me start at the beginning. When I
saw the front cover picture, I asked myself, "What does it mean?" I turned
over and read on the back cover that it's a painting, Golconde, by Rene
Magritte. I turned to my wife, who is the house expert on art, for help. She
looked at me with that sense of superiority that women naturally have
towards men and said, "That's surrealism. You don't understand." Then I
turned to Wikipedia, where the painter proudly proclaimed:
"My painting is visible images which conceal nothing; they evoke mystery
and, indeed, when one sees one of my pictures, one asks oneself this simple
question, 'What does that mean?'. It does not mean anything, because mystery
means nothing either, it is unknowable."
Undaunted, I proceeded reading the book, "The Lighter Side of Gravity," by
Jayant V. Narlikar [1] and half-way through I even understood the meaning or
relevance of the cover picture.
Narilkar started the book talking about restlessness in the universe by
telling this nice story from our mythology: Little Dhruva's feelings were
hurt by her పినతల్లి సురుచి when she scolded him for competing with her
own son, ఉత్తముడు, to play on their father's lap. రోషపడ్డ Dhruvudu
proceeded to do a ఘోర తపస్సు; after six months, ముల్లోకాలు కంపించిన
మీదట, Vishnu appeared and granted him the position from which Dhruva
could not be moved!
I forgot the details of the story we all must have read in our childhood.
Recently, TTD published a reprint of Pothana Bhagavatam. (Thank you.)
సనాతన ధర్మ సముద్ధరణ కోసం వాళ్ళు పుస్తకం ఖరీదులో 75 శాతం రాయితీ
గూడా ఇచ్చారు. మా ఇంట్లో వాళ్ళు తరతరాలుగా ఏడుకొండలవాడికి ఇస్తున్న ముడుపుల్లో
కాస్తన్నా రాబట్టాలని, నేనీమధ్యనే ఒక సెట్టు చవగ్గా తెప్పించుకున్నాను. దాంట్లో
ధ్రువోపాఖ్యానం కథ చదివితే ఖగోళ శస్త్రమూ పురాణము కాస్త కలమెలిసి
ఉండటం చూస్తాం.
Narlikar goes on to show that even the polar star does not remain 'fixed.'
The earth's North-South axis revolves slowly around a small circle -
revolving once every 26000 years. Our little Dhruva's desire will be
satisfied only for a few thousand years and then some other star takes the
'fixed' position!
To make the story more interesting, the Westerns think the Hindus did not
know about the earth's precession. But Mahidhara says Varahamihirudu knew
about it [2]. Some argue that since Vishnu granted to Dhruva that
Saptarshulu will revolve around him for 26000 years, they knew about
precession!
Narlikar is not only a world-renowned scientist but I read he is a great
Science Popularizer in Marathi, Hindi and based on this book English! I hope
some Telugu scientists get inspiration from him.
Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao
Notes:
[1] "The Lighter Side of Gravity," by Jayant V. Narlikar, Cambridge
University Press, Second Edition, 1996.
[2] "కేలెండర్ కథ," మహీధర నళినీమోహన్, పేజీ 72.
Hanuma Kodavalla
నేను ఈవారం హడావిడిగా పనిమీద Minneapolis వెళ్ళి వచ్చాను. వాతావరణం
సరిలేక విమానం అటూ ఇటూ ఊగిఫోతుంటే ప్రాణాలు గుప్పిట్లో పెట్టుకోవాల్సొచ్చింది.
ధ్రువుడు విమానమెక్కి దేవతలు పూలవానలు కురిపిస్తుండగా, గ్రహమండలాన్నీ,
ముల్లోకాలనీ, సప్తర్షి మండలాన్నీ దాటి విష్ణుపదాన్ని అవలీలగా చేరడం
గుర్తొచ్చి, కలికాలం, మనకెన్ని కష్టాలు అనిపించింది! :-)
> Standards of contemporary science may not be applicable to Hindu
Astrology,
> an ancient subject, ...
Why not? We may not judge ancient times by modern standards, but we can
judge astrology as it's practiced *today*. Astronomy is even more ancient
subject; what is passed down to us is evaluated based on today's standards
and what doesn't measure up is discarded.
> Validation of a subject of antiquity such as Hindu Astrology would depend
heavily
> on Verbal Testimony, since it is based on the writings of Varahamihira
(505-587 CE)
> and others.
I do not understand why it should be only verbal testimony or even so why it
is hard? Let us take the horoscopes of couples, have astrologers predict
their divorce rates and compare with the actual results. Many such
experiments can be constructed like in any other scientific discipline. In
"The Scientific Edge: The Indian Scientist from Vedic to Modern Times,"
(thanks to Chukka Srinivas for mentioning the book) Narlekar says that many
experiments have been conducted and found the predictability wanting.
> The fact that it has stood the test of time is borne out by testimonies of
> those who have studied, practised, and evaluated its predictions. If the
predictions
> did not come true, the subject would have lost adherents and would have
disappeared
> from view.
It's indeed worthy of some social study why despite scientific debunking
such superstitions not only survive but thrive.
BTW, Narlekar has attacked UGC proposal in a chapter, "The Oxymoron of Vedic
Astrology," of the above book, citing there is no evidence that astrology
has Vedic origin and in fact it is one of the bad things, along with some
good things, that came to us from the Greeks.
udy...@aol.com
In a message dated November 10th, 2007, Hanumantha Rao garu wrote:
>I do not understand why it should be only verbal testimony or even so why it
>is hard? Let us take the horoscopes of couples, have astrologers predict
>their divorce rates and compare with the actual results. Many such
>experiments can be constructed like in any other scientific discipline.
Needless to say, at the time when Hindu Astrological texts were composed, divorce was
non-existent. Hence it is unlikely that there would be any reference to it. Moreover, the
texts were written to guide practitioners of the art and not with the thought that at some
later date the writings would be subject to statistical analysis. Thus, prosperity may be
described by the number of cows or acres of land that a person might possess. These
are not the common benchmarks of wealth today.
Udaya
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
To Post a message, send it to: racch...@yahoogroups.com
Courtesy: http://www.kanneganti.com/
Hanuma Kodavalla
> Needless to say, at the time ... divorce was non-existent. Hence it is
> unlikely that there would be any reference to it... texts were written
> to guide practitioners ... not with the thought that ...
> would be subject to statistical analysis.
I must have been unclear. I'm not asking for references to aspects of modern
life in the ancient texts.
Today if someone practices astronomy based on Ptolemy's Almagest, an ancient
text, we of course subject that to the laws of gravitation and verify with
our observations based on modern telescopes - even though the laws and the
artifacts were unknown in Ptolemy's time. If that practice doesn't measure
up, the practitioner has no choice but to ignore that part of Ptolemy and
move on.
Similarly, if someone practices astrology based on Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos or
Varahamihira's (?)-Samhita, we judge using statistical analysis or whatever
other experimental or theoretical techniques we have learnt in the past few
hundred years. Our focus is not so much on what's in their texts but what's
practiced based on those texts and anything else the astrologers discovered
since then. (Today's astrologer who matches the horoscopes must recognize
divorce as a marriage that has gone bad, or some other metric to measure the
poor outcome of a bad match.) Again, if that does not measure up, we as
rational beings expect the practitioner to give up that practice and move
on.
Claims like it must be true because so many people since antiquity believed
and continue to believe in it does not earn astrology any respect in
scientific community. In fact, that's another reason why it receives the
derision - and deservedly so.
Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao
Srinivas Nagulapalli
wrote:
>
> Again, if that does not measure up, we as rational beings expect the
> practitioner to give up that practice and move on.
No, we don't! Please have some compassion- give us a break! How
rational are we? Or better, our many brilliant scientists really?
Despite and against numerous scientific, statistical, or rational
findings, we, including scientists, still seem to smoke, take drugs,
drink (and drive!) recklessly and cheat! If these are some acts of
commissions, there is a whole list of omissions! Why do many rational
beings don't exercise, don't spend outdoors (instead of online) and
don't listen to spouse or kids as much as stock analysts (or clients)!
Where do we begin? Practice of street astrology pales into
insignificance when compared with the atrocious and irrational
exuberances practiced by us- at least by so called rational beings.
May be those of us who are more enlightened can help. How rational is
it to have those wedding dresses in which one can barely breathe in!
And how can those strangling neck ties go together with working!
Sorry for the pun, but how do high heels and walking go together!
And how sensible is the whole business of skin tanning! What sense
in gulping down carbonated liquids while trying to exhale precisely
that darn gas out! How rational is it to vote Republican or
Democrat! I hope I made the point.
And if astrologers are pretentious, rational scientists seem just as
much pretentious and even more arrogant! May be reformers should
reform themselves first! Reforming the irrational rest of us can
wait! May be there is a better chance of us learning by watching than
being told.
------------------------------------------------
Regards
-Srinivas
J. K. Mohana Rao
--- Srinivas Nagulapalli <srini...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Despite and against numerous scientific, statistical, or rational
> findings, we, including scientists, still seem to smoke, take drugs,
> drink (and drive!) recklessly and cheat! If these are some acts of
> commissions, there is a whole list of omissions! Why do many rational
> beings don't exercise, don't spend outdoors (instead of online) and
> don't listen to spouse or kids as much as stock analysts (or clients)!
>
There was a very famous scientist with telugu roots, who was at one
time Scientific adviser to the Defence ministry, who, it is said,
was trying to contact another famous saint when his child was
seriously ill. Calling a doctor was only an after-thought.
My own thesis adviser, a brilliant scientist who was nominated
for the Nobel Prize, now no more, was an ardent devotee of
the saint from Andhra and had deep faith in nADIjyOtisha and used
to tell that all people's jAtakAs, born and unborn, were already
written!
Indians, Andhras no exception, lead compartmentalised lives.
On one hand, they do path-breaking work in the office, lab, etc.
After coming home, they lead another life where they will believe
anything and everything! The same habits are carried over
even after crossing the seven seas!
By the way, is there an astro gene?
Regards! - mOhana
____________________________________________________________________________________
Get easy, one-click access to your favorites.
Make Yahoo! your homepage.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
lylayer
<srini_nagul@...> wrote:
> And how can those strangling neck ties go together with working!
> Sorry for the pun, but how do high heels and walking go together!
:-):-)
Be careful! SN:
When you say such a thing about heels to girs, specially when they
are on them. Particularly if you are wearing a tie at that time.:-)
The girls get really high on heels.
If you take a happiness pole the shoes are up up up there. They
could even be number one in Girls list and men may be way way way at
the bottom of the list. I am not sure if men are even making it to
the list . They are desperately trying...but shoes ..and pocket
books...man! that is religion.
Have a nice day:-)
lyla
Hemantha Kumar
Some men do make it before the shoes can and I know several women who went on/over their heels over men. :-)))
Yes, ma'am, having having fun thank you.
Best wishes
Hemantha Kumar
lylayer <lyl...@aol.com> wrote:
<snip>
If you take a happiness pole the shoes are up up up there. They
could even be number one in Girls list and men may be way way way at
the bottom of the list. I am not sure if men are even making it to
the list . They are desperately trying...but shoes ..and pocket
books...man! that is religion.
<snip>
Hanuma Kodavalla
> Please have some compassion- give us a break!
I don't know how I'm perceived on RB, but I'm a very tolerant and
compassionate guy. :-)
> I hope I made the point
You did - rather emphatically, but is it relevant to the question at hand:
is astrology a science? When I contrasted astrologers with astronomers, I
described what one expects an endeavor to be called scientific. We do not
judge a discipline by probing how consistent, virtuous or contemptuous its
practitioners are in their personal lives. Indeed, there are abominable
scientists as well as angelic astrologers, but that hardly makes a
difference to the argument.
Today you seem to condone astrology, not because it's necessarily scientific
but because there are other - some harmless and some possibly far more
nefarious - irrational elements in our lives! Alas, what an extraneous
defense of a field that only last week was put on the same pedestal as
meteorology!
The series of 'compelling' arguments in favor of astrology must make Nehru
and Tagore feel 'proud' of the prevailing scientific temper amongst the
highly educated in our beloved country.
Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao
--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, "Hanuma Kodavalla" <hanumak@...>
wrote:
>
> Again, if that does not measure up, we as rational beings expect the
> practitioner to give up that practice and move on.
No, we don't! Please have some compassion- give us a break! How
rational are we? Or better, our many brilliant scientists really?
<snip>
udy...@aol.com
>Similarly, if someone practices astrology based on Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos or
>other experimental or theoretical techniques we have learnt in the past few
>hundred years. Our focus is not so much on what's in their texts but what's
>practiced based on those texts and anything else the astrologers discovered
>since then. (Today's astrologer who matches the horoscopes must recognize
>divorce as a marriage that has gone bad, or some other metric to measure the
>rational beings expect the practitioner to give up that practice and move
>on.
>and continue to believe in it does not earn astrology any respect in
>scientific community.
based on so-called scientific analysis alone. The latter has a common-sensical
air; but it is also, once accepted, fairly iconoclastic, since it implies
that every
claim to knowledge must be put to the test of verification, sometimes imposed
quite arbitrarily, and, if wanting, rejected. But there is much disagreement
about the concept of verification itself. It involves experimental procedures,
induction, and a host of other intellectual devices whose authority must in
turn be validated by their ability to pass the test of verification.
We need to interpret our experiences, and frequently make use of occult
subjects such as astrology in doing so. Sometimes the occult is obscurely
intertwined with practical truths, as in the mysteries of religion. When
interpreting the world, our purpose is to establish and justify our place
within its boundary, not merely to know it within the narrow confines of
science. Many things assist us in this task besides religion: art, story-
telling, poetry, symbolism, ritual, astrology, along with common morality
and rules of conduct. These exercises are aimed at abstract truth and are
philosophical in the true sense; but most are a matter of religious, aesthetic
and moral interpretation, whose primary goal is not "verifiable" truth but
consolation.
Udaya
************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
To Post a message, send it to: racch...@yahoogroups.com
Courtesy: http://www.kanneganti.com/
Satyanarayana Pamarty
wrote:
> My own thesis adviser, a brilliant scientist who was nominated
> for the Nobel Prize, now no more, was an ardent devotee of
> the saint from Andhra and had deep faith in nADIjyOtisha and used
> to tell that all people's jAtakAs, born and unborn, were already
> written!
Dear mOhana rAvu gAru!
Thanks for bringing up nADIjyOtishyaM. I have my story to tell here.
I must warn the readers that this is going to be a bit longish. Sorry
about that. If you don't like what I am saying, you can just delete
it if you received it in e-mail or skip it if you are reading it on
the net.
Back to the story now. There was one colleague of mine who was
singing praise of this when I decided to investigate this more than a
decade ago.
Unlike now, I was a research scholar and had more time then for such
adventurous pursuits.
Following my friend's advice, I submitted myself to the nADi
examination with an open mind. I had heard of this before and
everyone had only good things to say about it. They take money only
if they can locate your leaf. Often, they are able to, but rarely,
they will not find your leaf in their collection in which case, they
won't take any money from you.
So, one fine morning, knowing that I had nothing to lose, I visited
the nADi jyOtishyuDu (NJ) along with my friend and the NJ's deputies
took my thumb impression on a paper and also asked me to write my
name with first name and initial. I thought of expanding my name, but
no, they wouldn't have it. They wanted only my first name and
initial. "So be it!" I wrote my name as "Satyanarayana P".
They asked me and my friend to visit again in the evening. Armed with
the thumb print and the name in the first name and initial format,
they said they would be able to zero in and pull out the actual tALa
patraM that had my fate written on it.
When I visited in the evening, the NJ had already zeroed in and had a
bunch of tALa patrAlu in his hand. They were palm leaves of all those
who shared my name he claimed. There were only about 100 or so of
them, and I was a bit surprised that only that many were there. Then,
they told me that the fingerprint also plays a role and that they had
used both my name and FP to cull out these 100 odd leaves. Well, I
was already a forensic scientist by then and thought that may be they
had discovered an unknown application for the whorl on my thumb.
Whatever it is, my thumb print and name yielded about 100 results
from their database. Now, they had to find out the exact palm leaf
that had my fate written on it.
To do this, the NJ told me that he will ask me a series of questions
and all I needed to do was to give him an "yes" or "no" for an answer.
When I was a research scholar in the Forensic Sciences Department in
Madras, I was one of the first few to take the Polygraph examination
(Lie detector test). There too, the operator asks questions
requiring "Yes" or "No" for an answer. I will talk another time about
my experience with the Lie detector.
Well, the quiz eventually got underway and like the Lie, er., Truth
detector examination, was interspersed with seemingly meaningless
questions.
To detect which palm leaf belonged to me, there were questions like,
NJ: "Are you the only son in the family?"
Me: "No"
NJ: "Do you like green colour?"
Me: "Yes"
NJ: "Do you have more than one brother?"
Me: "No"
NJ: "Do you like to eat rice?"
Me: "Sometimes"
NJ: "Please sir, don't give multi syllable answers. I don't want to
influence you to tell me anything. I just want an "Yes" or "No"."
Me[after thinking deeply]: "Yes."
NJ: "Do you have an younger brother?"
Me: "No"
NJ: "Is your kuladaivam perumAL?"
Me: "Don't know. Sorry, no."
NJ: "Do you have more than one female siblings?"
Me: "Yes."
NJ: "Have you ever climbed on an elephant? I ask this question
because it says on this leaf that this guy dies after falling from
the elephant"
Me: "No." [Oh. If I already climbed the elephant, and if that is
true, would I be here?]
NJ: "Do you have elder sisters?"
Me: "No."
NJ: "Have you smelt thaaLampoo [mogalipUvu] smell before?"
Me: "Yes."
NJ: "Do you have three or more younger sisters?"
Me: "No."
...
The quiz went on and on and on and on till the guy had enough
information to write my biography. During all this time, according to
my friend (who is a scientist himself!) I was NOT giving away any
information other than say, "yes" or "no". With each "no", the NJ
would throw away a palm leaf aside and would say that that particular
palm leaf did not contain information about me. It belonged to
someone similar to me from another time and another place.
After discarding some 50 or so palm leafs, he felt confident that he
had almost all the information about me, er, that he had the real
palm leaf that belonged to me. Well, almost. He wanted to then know
why I came to see him. He started quizzing me about problems I faced.
From this point on, I will skip the irrelevant stupid questions he
asked for the sake of brevity.
NJ: "Do you have any problems?"
Me: "No."
NJ: "Are you healthy?"
Me: "Yes."
NJ: "Have you had any love failures?"
Me: "No."
NJ: "Did you fail in your exams?"
Me: "No."
NJ: "Have you lost money recently?"
Me: "No."
NJ: "Did any of your loved ones pass away recently?"
Me: "No."
<snip>
</snip>
NJ [to himself and this is my imagination]: "Why the heck did this
bum come to me?" and loudly, "Have you come to find out the truth
about Naadi josyam?
Me: "Yes."
The guy was sweating by now. He still kept his composure. The deal
was that he will charge me 500 bucks if he could locate my palm leaf.
If he could not, he will return the 100 bucks he took as advance. He
had enough information to win the 500 bucks. I was willing to throw
away 500 bucks from the monthly UGC grant that I used to receive at
that time to get to know the truth.
So, he changed gears and told me that if he could locate the leaf
with my father's name on it, he will believe that the palm leaf had
my information on it whether I had any problem to deal with or not.
(He confessed that people without problems rarely came to him and
that I was a unique specimen.) Therefore, the final leg of the quiz
continued...
NJ: "Is your father's name puNyakOTi?" [he was looking to expand the
initial "P" in my name with my father's first name. He did not know
that the telugus were different animals who named themselves
differently and had surnames and never their father's names.]
Me: "No."
NJ: "Is it prakAsh?"
Me: "No".
NJ: "Peddayya?" [whew! he knew some telugu names too!]
Me: "No."
NJ: "Is it the name of Lord bAlAji?"
Me: "Yes." [vEMkaTESvara rAvu]
NJ[enthusiastically]: "Is it perumAL?"
Me[Sadly]: "No."
NJ: "What is this sir? Is it purushOttaman?"
Me: "No."
NJ: "paraMdhaaman?"
Me: "No."
NJ: "pArthasArathi?"
Me: "No."
NJ [Finishing that portion of vishNu sahasranAmaM starting with
letter "P" and with the remaining leaves in hand fast
dwindling]: "Sir, the leaf with your fate written on it cannot be
located from this bunch we zeroed in on. We will be getting another
batch of leaves from vaidISvaran^ kOvil^ next week. Can you please
come next week? Now that we have all the information about you, we
will be able to find your leaf for you from the bunch that's left in
VK (be able to get some more telugu names starting with "P"?) without
having to quiz you again. Here are the 100 rupees that you gave us in
the morning."
Me: "It's so nice of you. You can keep the 100 rupees. You did spend
considerable time in the effort."
NJ: "No sir. We can't take the money. Please take it back."
Me: "Great. That's okay. I will come again sometime."
I never went again. On the way back, my friend again praised the
genuinity of the system and how they returned the money when they
could not locate my leaf. He praises the system to this day. As for
me, I think I know how NJ works. I thoroughly enjoyed my time that
day.
I tend to think nADIjOsyaM is a science that uses mathematical logic!
Will KHR say "yes" or "no"? ;)
With best wishes
Satya
Srinivas Nagulapalli
> at hand: is astrology a science? When I contrasted astrologers
> with astronomers, I described what one expects an endeavor to be
> called scientific. We do not judge a discipline by probing how
> consistent, virtuous or contemptuous its practitioners are in
> their personal lives. Indeed, there are abominable scientists as
> well as angelic astrologers, but that hardly makes a difference to
> the argument.
That is precisely the point. Who is to decide what is a science?
There are scientists who decry and deride it, and interestingly
there are some of the same species who seem to believe it and
follow it. What gives? What is stopping scientists from getting
their act together!
> Today you seem to condone astrology, not because it's necessarily
> scientific but because there are other - some harmless and some
> possibly far more nefarious - irrational elements in our lives!
> Alas, what an extraneous defense of a field that only last week
> was put on the same pedestal as meteorology!
I am not sure I understand this. What does it mean to condone in a
discussion of ideas? If meteorology can fail countless times and
with more effort and research can still be improvised as a science,
it lends only credence not defense, to anything including astrology
that it could also be expanded with right effort and research. Is
there a pedestal in science that we can put one body of knowledge
against another like grocery items!
> The series of 'compelling' arguments in favor of astrology must
> make Nehru and Tagore feel 'proud' of the prevailing scientific
> temper amongst the highly educated in our beloved country.
Oh please! Many are not proud of Nehru's inept handling of domestic
and foreign policies either. Environmentalists also are not proud
of him, for making his dirt thrown all over the country.
-------------------------------------------------
Regards
-Srinivas
maganti.vamsi
--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, "Satyanarayana Pamarty"
<pamarty@...> wrote:
>
> --- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, "J. K. Mohana Rao" jkmrao@
> wrote:
>
> > My own thesis adviser, a brilliant scientist who was nominated
> > for the Nobel Prize, now no more, was an ardent devotee of
> > the saint from Andhra and had deep faith in nADIjyOtisha and used
> > to tell that all people's jAtakAs, born and unborn, were already
> > written!
>
> Dear mOhana rAvu gAru!
>
> Thanks for bringing up nADIjyOtishyaM. I have my story to tell here.
>
> I must warn the readers that this is going to be a bit longish. Sorry
> about that. If you don't like what I am saying, you can just delete
> it if you received it in e-mail or skip it if you are reading it on
> the net.
My answer would be "No" matter what - if it's an email from
Satyanarayana garu, I never skip a word of it. Satyanarayana garu -
atleast for me you are a reincarnation of "tenAli rAmakRshNa"...what
could I say other than that I am a blessed soul to see these wonderful
and hilarious writings........ hats off...
nADIjyOtishyam tALapatrAlu, mI mitruDu, aa nADI jyOtishyuDu
jindAbAd...would love to hear the polygraph test conversation....pls
share it with us when ever your time permits..
God bless satyanrayaNa gAru....
Kiran Kumar Chava
IGFuaXBpTWNFZGkuCgppcHBhVGlrSSBzdmFhdElsTyBpdGFyYSBwdGFyaWthbGxPIGRhYW5u
aSBwb2d1RHV0VSB2YXN0RSBjYWFsYWEKbmF2dnVsYWFUYWdhYSB1TVR1TWRpLgoKZEluaXBh
aSBuYW1tYWthTSBwT3ZhRGFhbmlraSBrVURhYSBPIHBhdHJpa0Uga2FhcmFOYU0gLgoKYWRp
IHZhTURhciB2YXJhbEQgZWtrdXZhZ2FhIHJVbCBjRXN0dW5uYSByT2p1bHUgKHRhcnV2YWF0
YSBhYQpwYXRyaWthcGFpIGNhYWxhYSBhYXJPcGFOYWx1IHZhY2NpIGFNZGFyVSBjYWRhYURh
TSBtYWFuRVNhYXJhbnVrT01EaSkKCnZhYXJ1IEkgI05KI3BhaSBPIGdvcHBhIHNUcmlNZyBh
YXBhckVzaGFuIG5pcnZhaGlNY2luYWFydS4KCmlkZGFydSB2aWxFa2FydWxhbnUgcGFNcGks
IG9rYXJpbmkgYW5uSSBuaWphYWx1IGNlcHBhbWFubmFhcnUsCm1hcm9rYXJpbmkgbXVNZEUg
ZnJFbSBjRXN1a3VubmEgYWJhZGRhYWx1IGNlcHBhbWFubmFhcnUuCgptSWt1IG1hTExFIHZh
YUxMYW5pIGtVRGFhIE8gbVVEdSByT2p1bHUgdmFhcmkgZGFnZ2FyYWxPbmkgaE9UYWwgbmFN
ZEUKdU1EYW1hbm5hYXJ1LgoKYWEgaE9UYWxsTyBpcnVndSB2YWFydSBwb3J1Z3UgdmFhcnUg
YURpZ2luYSB2YWFUaWtpIGtVRGFhIHZJcmlkZGFyVQpuaWphYWx1IGFiYWRkYWFsdSBjZXBw
aW5hYXJ1LgoKRW11TWR1IG1VRHUgck9qdWxhIHRhcnV2YWF0YSB0YWFMYSBwYXRyYWFsdSBk
b3Jpa2luYWF5aSwgbmlqYU0gY2VwcGluYQp2YWFuaWtpIGFubkkgbmlqYWFsRSB2YWNjaW5h
YXlpLCBhYmFkZGFhbHUgY2VwcGluYSB2YWFuaWtpIGFubkkKYWJhZGRhYWx1IHZyYWFzaW5h
dkUgdmFjY2luYWF5aSA6KQoKIyBNYXkgYmUgVFYtOSBoYXMgc29tZSB3b3JrIHRoZXJlIHRv
IGRvIDopCgojCgoKLS0gCi0tLS0K4LCo4LGG4LCo4LCw4LGN4LCy4LGBLArgsJXgsL/gsLDg
sKPgsY0g4LCV4LGB4LCu4LC+4LCw4LGNIOCwmuCwvuCwteCwvgpodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm9yZW11
bmEuY29tCmh0dHA6Ly9mbGlja3IuY29tL3Bob3Rvcy9jaGF2YWtpcmFuCm5hYSBzT2RpCgoK
VG8gUG9zdCBhIG1lc3NhZ2UsIHNlbmQgaXQgdG86ICAgcmFjY2hhYmFuZGFAeWFob29ncm91
cHMuY29tCgpUbyBVbnN1YnNjcmliZSwgc2VuZCBhIGJsYW5rIG1lc3NhZ2UgdG86IHJhY2No
YWJhbmRhLXVuc3Vic2NyaWJlQHlhaG9vZ3JvdXBzLmNvbSAKWWFob28hIEdyb3VwcyBMaW5r
cwoKPCo+IFRvIHZpc2l0IHlvdXIgZ3JvdXAgb24gdGhlIHdlYiwgZ28gdG86CiAgICBodHRw
Oi8vZ3JvdXBzLnlhaG9vLmNvbS9ncm91cC9yYWNjaGFiYW5kYS8KCjwqPiBZb3VyIGVtYWls
IHNldHRpbmdzOgogICAgSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBFbWFpbCB8IFRyYWRpdGlvbmFsCgo8Kj4gVG8g
Y2hhbmdlIHNldHRpbmdzIG9ubGluZSBnbyB0bzoKICAgIGh0dHA6Ly9ncm91cHMueWFob28u
Y29tL2dyb3VwL3JhY2NoYWJhbmRhL2pvaW4KICAgIChZYWhvbyEgSUQgcmVxdWlyZWQpCgo8
Kj4gVG8gY2hhbmdlIHNldHRpbmdzIHZpYSBlbWFpbDoKICAgIG1haWx0bzpyYWNjaGFiYW5k
YS1kaWdlc3RAeWFob29ncm91cHMuY29tIAogICAgbWFpbHRvOnJhY2NoYWJhbmRhLWZ1bGxm
ZWF0dXJlZEB5YWhvb2dyb3Vwcy5jb20KCjwqPiBUbyB1bnN1YnNjcmliZSBmcm9tIHRoaXMg
Z3JvdXAsIHNlbmQgYW4gZW1haWwgdG86CiAgICByYWNjaGFiYW5kYS11bnN1YnNjcmliZUB5
YWhvb2dyb3Vwcy5jb20KCjwqPiBZb3VyIHVzZSBvZiBZYWhvbyEgR3JvdXBzIGlzIHN1Ympl
Y3QgdG86CiAgICBodHRwOi8vZG9jcy55YWhvby5jb20vaW5mby90ZXJtcy8KIAo=
Courtesy: http://www.kanneganti.com/
Hemantha Kumar
I have a slightly different story on Naadi Jyothishyam. Here is the link to my Swanta Dabba.
http://www.chennaibest.com/cityresources/Consultants/nadijyothishyam.asp
And thanks for permitting me the indulgence.
Best wishes
Hemantha Kumar
Satyanarayana Pamarty <pam...@hotmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
Following my friend's advice, I submitted myself to the nADi
examination with an open mind.
<snip>
I tend to think nADIjOsyaM is a science that uses mathematical logic!
<snip>
Satya
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
To Post a message, send it to: racch...@yahoogroups.com
Courtesy: http://www.kanneganti.com/
raju.sp prasanna
Thanks for your response.
Please put a petition on petitiononline.com
to get support to your opinian by the like minded.
Thanks& regards
Save all your chat conversations. Find them online at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php
Hanuma Kodavalla
> I tend to think nADIjOsyaM is a science that uses mathematical logic!
> Will KHR say "yes" or "no"? ;)
Satya gAru,
Nice story-telling as always.
nADIjOsyaM, like its sister fields, is a *pseudo* science, and is now fairly
advanced enough to use satellite data and computer programs.
Oops! I'm supposed to say just Yes or No. Sorry. But you see, I come from a
village, where the tradition was much different and actually much more
enjoyable. You would have written even a better story.
నా చిన్నప్పుడు సోదమ్మ వస్తే అమ్మలక్కలంతా గుమికూడి వాళ్ళవీ పిల్లలవీ చెయ్యి
చూపించుకునేవాళ్ళు. చాటలో బియ్యం పోస్తేగాని, సోదమ్మ మొదలుపెట్టేది గాదు.
తంబూర (?) వాయిస్తూ రాగయుక్తంగా జీవితంలో జరిగినవీ జరగబోయేవీ పాటలాగా
చెప్తూంటే సావధానంగా వినేవాళ్ళు. అమ్మాయికి వరుడు ఆమూలనుండి వస్తాడు అంటే
బస్తీ అబ్బాయి వస్తాడని మురిసిపోయేవాళ్ళు.
I wonder if those సోదమ్మs are qualified to get a visting professorship at
one of the UGC-sponsored universities.
KHR
Hanuma Kodavalla
> Who is to decide what is a science? ...
> If meteorology can fail countless times and with more effort and
> research can still be improvised as a science, it lends only credence
> not defense, to anything including astrology that it could also be
> expanded with right effort and research....
> Oh please! Many are not proud of Nehru's inept handling of
> domestic and foreign policies either ...
Almost twenty years ago, when Noam Chomsky spoke at my campus, I went to the
university library and read his 1967 NYRB essay and exchange, "The
Responsibility of Intellectuals." It's in a completely different context
from this thread although probably still relevant to the current world
affairs. Even after all these years, one sentence from that stuck in my
mind:
"Rational discussion is useful only when there is a significant base of
shared assumptions."
I realize you and I have an insignificant base, if at all, of shared
assumptions on this matter and hence I withdraw from the discussion without
meaning any offense.
Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao
Hanuma Kodavalla
> Not all human thinking is based on the supposition that understanding
> is based on so-called scientific analysis alone.
I agree.
> We need to interpret our experiences, and frequently make use of
> occult subjects such as astrology in doing so.
This "leap of faith" - since science is not the only human thinking, we need
to rely on occult subjects like astrology - is what I'm unable to make.
Apparently, Vico rebelled against Descartes for relying only on reason, but
even Vico did not resort to superstitions like astrology [1].
> our purpose is to establish and justify our place within its boundary,
> not merely to know it within the narrow confines of science.
"When I heard the learn'd astronomer;
When the proofs, the figures, were ranged in columns before me;
When I was shown the charts and the diagrams, to add, divide, and
measure them;
When I, sitting, heard the astronomer, where he lectured with much
applause in the lecture-room,
How soon, unaccountable, I became tired and sick;
Till rising and gliding out, I wander'd off by myself,
In the mystical moist night-air, and from time to time,
Look'd up in perfect silence at the stars."
- Walt Whitman
I think Whitman is being silly. Science in fact helps us better in
interpreting the world and finding our place in it. And it lets us miss no
charm of the deep skies. Of course, neither does it replace poetry, art,
love, etc.
> Many things assist us in this task besides religion: art, story-
> telling, poetry, symbolism, ritual, astrology ...
At least one of them pushes man back to the dark ages.
Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao
Notes:
[1] "The Divorce Between the Sciences and the Humanities," in "The Proper
Study of Mankind: An Anthology of Essays," by Isaiah Berlin. I do not claim
to understand the essay well; don't know most names mentioned there. But the
important point Uday gAru raised about the insufficiency of reason is
addressed.
J. K. Mohana Rao
>
> నా చిన్నప్పుడు సోదమ్మ వస్తే అమ్మలక్కలంతా గుమికూడి వాళ్ళవీ పిల్లలవీ చెయ్యి
> చూపించుకునేవాళ్ళు. చాటలో బియ్యం పోస్తేగాని, సోదమ్మ మొదలుపెట్టేది గాదు.
> తంబూర (?) వాయిస్తూ రాగయుక్తంగా జీవితంలో జరిగినవీ జరగబోయేవీ పాటలాగా
> చెప్తూంటే సావధానంగా వినేవాళ్ళు. అమ్మాయికి వరుడు ఆమూలనుండి వస్తాడు అంటే
> బస్తీ అబ్బాయి వస్తాడని మురిసిపోయేవాళ్ళు.
>
నా చిన్నప్పుడు మదరాసు వీధులలో సోదెమ్మలు మాత్రమె కాదు, కోయరాజులు
కూడ తిరిగేవారు. ఒక ఏకతారను వాయించుకొంటూ వీళ్ళు నడుస్తుండేవారు.
జీవీ జీవీ గురునాథన్నా అనే ఒక ముక్క జ్ఞాపకము వస్తుంది ఇప్పుడు.
వాళ్ళు చేతులు చూసి అదృష్టము (దురదృష్టము) చెప్పేవారు. దుష్టగ్రహాలను
శాంతిపరచాలి, ఏవో పూజలు చేయాలి, నేను చేయిస్తాను, అని వాటికయ్యే
ఖర్చులను రాబడిగా మార్చేవారు. మునీశ్వరునికి పూజ చేయాలనేవాళ్ళు.
దీనితోబాటు సూదులు, మణులు, ఇత్యాదులు అమ్మేవాళ్ళు. అదృష్టము ఏమో గాని
వాళ్ళు రాగయుక్తముగా పాడుతూ జ్యోస్యము చెబుతుంటే మహా రక్తికరముగా
ఉండేది! బహుశా ఇట్టి ఉదంతాలు కారణామేమో జీవితము చిత్రములోని
చక్కనైన కోయరాజు నెక్కడైన చూశారా అనే పాటకు?
- మోహన
udy...@aol.com
makes a very perceptive comment:
>This "leap of faith" - since science is not the only human thinking, we need
>to rely on occult subjects like astrology - is what I'm unable to make.
>Apparently, Vico rebelled against Descartes for relying only on reason, but
Indeed, Vico held that the community of man is open to modes
of understanding quite distinct from those available in the
investigation of the physical universe; thus a deep divide
separated historical and religious studies from the natural
sciences. Radical divergences of outlook that manifested
themselves at different stages of human development can
only be grasped through the critical interpretation of such
cultural phenomena as language, law, myth and ritual.
For example, Vico considered ancient Hebrew society
unique, and different from Gentile societies, since it was
created and providentially guided by God. Hence Hebrew
language, literature, and theocracy can only be understood
in divine terms. All other human groupings, such as those
of the Gentiles, are guided by human efforts and can be
studied in human terms.
There are parallels between Hebrew and Vedic traditions,
since they both originated at a time when human societies
entered a religious stage, in which people conceived of
deities as running their worlds and obeyed them out of
reverence or fear. As part of this mix, planets have been
deified as well.
Mantreswara, in his Phaladeepika, (translated from
the Sanskrit by K.N. Saraswathy, Hindu Astrological
Calculations) writes:
"The nine planets, worshipped for many years with
devotion by the saint Parasara and being pleased,
bestowed on him the knowledge of accurately
determining the effects of previous Karma on every
individual. Having been convinced after many tests that
they are successful, I take out the essence from the
astrological books setting forth in brief his renowned
Mahadasa."
From the above passage, one learns that astrological
principles were in fact tested prior to being recorded
in ancient texts. In fairness to the subject and its role
in the development of our culture, Hindu Astrology
has to be studied, understood, and evaluated
genetically, in terms of how it came to be an
important part of our heritage.
Udaya
************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
To Post a message, send it to: racch...@yahoogroups.com
Courtesy: http://www.kanneganti.com/
Satyanarayana Pamarty
>
> Nice story-telling as always.
Thank you KHR gaaru!
> nADIjOsyaM, like its sister fields, is a *pseudo* science, and is
> now fairly
> advanced enough to use satellite data and computer programs.
I am hoping that you did not really believe that I was calling
nADIjOsyaM a science! I thought I was at my sarcastic best there!
Don't you know me well enough by now? I am a psuedo-rationalist. ;)
Computer programs? yes! All you need to do is make the program ask
simple questions and store the "yes" or "no" answers in a database
and spew all the information with the "yes" answers out as the
biography of the person who took the test!
Satellite data? Possibly. You come to me for a prediction. I look up
the current satellite photo on http://ehabich.info. I think it will
rain or snow in the area. I see that you don't have a brolly with you
and you appear to have come walking. I predict that you will get wet
on your way back and for the weekend, you will have a cold or
possibly a fever too.
I see sunshine and I will predict that you will be in the pink of
health and possibly accompany your son to the football game over the
weekend.
However, knowing you, come rain or sunshine, during the weekend you
will immerse yourself in some new book that many may not have ever
heard of. Am I good at predicting these things? :-))
> Oops! I'm supposed to say just Yes or No. Sorry. But you see, I
> come from a
> village, where the tradition was much different and actually much
> more
> enjoyable. You would have written even a better story.
Yes. I have had this experience with సోదమ్మ too. Once when I
accompanied my mother to our native place, they called this lady who
did her stuff for my mother. I was too small to actually understand
how they did it. :)) My mother believes that the sOdamma said things
only her mother could have said!! No idea whatsoever what the catch
is.
>... తంబూర (?)...
I remember seeing only the stick in her hand and no instrument. I was
too scared of the lady at that time to take notice of anything anyway.
> I wonder if those సోదమ్మs are qualified to get a visting
> professorship at
> one of the UGC-sponsored universities.
Are you kidding?! :-))
With best wishes
Satya
Satyanarayana Pamarty
wrote:
> Satyanarayana garu, I never skip a word of it. Satyanarayana garu -
> atleast for me you are a reincarnation of "tenAli rAmakRshNa"...what
> could I say other than that I am a blessed soul to see these wonderful
> and hilarious writings........ hats off...
వంశీ గారూ!
Thank you so much for your kind words.
అయినా మీరు క్షణంలో పొగిడేశారు. మిగిలిన వారి సంగతి తెలియదు కానీ
నేను మాత్రం నిన్నాట్నుంచీ ఈ మాటలు విని యమ యాతన అనుభవిస్తూ
తలుచుకుని తలుచుకుని కొత్త పెళ్ళికూతురిలా మెలికలు తిరిగిపోతున్నానంటే
నమ్మండి.
ధన్యవాదాలు చెబితే ఇక్కడ స్థానిక అష్టదిగ్గజాలూ, కృష్ణదేవరాయల
వారూ, ఇతరులూ, నిజంగానే మిరన్నవన్నీ నేను నమ్మేశాననుకునే ప్రమాదం
ఉంది. పోనీ ఏమీ రాయకుండా ఊరుకుందామా అంటే మరి మీరు నేనేదో చాలా
పొగరుబోతు, తలబిరుసు వెధవనని అనుకునే ప్రమాదమూ లేక పోలేదు. అసలే
చాలా మంది అలాగే అనుకుంటున్నారని నాకు చూచాయిగా తెలుసు.
మింగాలేకా, కక్కాలేకా నేను పడే బాధ ఆ దేవుడికే
తెలుసు. "కుంజరయూధమ్ము దోమ కుత్తుక జొచ్చునేమో" కానివ్వండి, ఎంత
ప్రయత్నించినా ఈ మాటలు మాత్రం నా గొంతులో మింగుడు పడట్లేదండీ బాబూ. ఏవో
వెధవ గీతలు నాలుగు బరికేస్తూ ప్రశాంతంగా జీవితాన్ని సాగిస్తున్న నాకు ఈ
బిరుదాంకితప్రశంసలేంఇటి మహాశయా?
తిడితే పని జరగదని తెలుసుకుని, స్తోత్రాలతో ఒక్క మాటున ఠపీమని నా
పీక నొక్కే ప్రయత్నం కాదు కదా? :-)
నమస్కారములతో
పామర్తి సత్యనారాయణ
hanuma_k
Got it. Got it. :-)
> ... come rain or sunshine ...
This is November and I live near Seattle. Mostly rain or grey weather
till June, a couple of months of sunshine and then back to normal!
Amazon, Starbucks, Bookstores with Starbucks - we have plenty, but
Man cannot overcome what God had ordained, so for many it's a
depressive place to live. Drugs, alcohol, and some just decide to get
out of here - I mean get out of life altogether! (Even after five
years in Seattle, my California friends are amazed I'm alive without
those afflictions.)
What determines people's lives, my friend, is the weather, which in
turn is determined by the orbital positions of the Earth and the Sun.
What more proof do you need to show that astrology is based on sound
science. :-)
KHR
svrahul
one of my favorite author Joseph Campbell indicated, Truth is sum of
Mystery (Mystic Belief) + Knowledge (Proven or accepted facts). I
think, any judgmental conclusion on any observation is limited by the
Knowledge we have at that point of time.
Recently I was watching a Google video on "The Mayan Calendar Comes
North 01 - Ian Xel Lungold" (
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8689261981090121097&q=mayan+calendar+site%3Avideo.google.com&subtitle=on&pr=goog-sl
).
I suggest who ever is intrigued by this discussion should watch this
video. This video provides another angle to this subject as source of
some more information.
Rahul Suryadevara
Hanuma Kodavalla
> Indeed, Vico held that ...
When a Danish writer confessed he needed help with "Finnegans Wake," Joyce
suggested a reading of Vico. "But do you believe in the Scienza Nuova?"
asked the writer. "I don't believe in any science," Joyce answered, "but my
imagination grows when I read Vico as it doesn't when I read Freud or Jung."
Edmund Wilson begins his famous book, "To The Finland Station: A Study in
the Writing and Acting of History," with "Michelet Discovers Vico."
Uday Rao gAru tells us that from Vico's theories we can deduce that Vedic
tradition is divine and the nine planets determine the effect of previous
life's karma on every individual. And this has been tested beyond any human
reproach!
Who is this Vico? Why on earth did I drop his name on RB? :-)
Giambattista Vico made some dramatic observations that relate to our
discussion on science and wrote his masterpiece titled, "Scienza Nuova,"
(New Science). The prevailing intellectual climate in his time was that of
Cartesian tradition - mathematics and natural sciences were the embodiment
of reason and knowable truths; knowledge outside their scope - about
history, language, law, etc. - was treated with disdain.
Vico attacked this in an ingenious manner. He agreed that the propositions
of mathematics were models of clarity but he argued that the certitude of
mathematical reasoning stemmed from the fact its elements are all created by
man. This is not true of the natural sciences, because the nature is not
created by us, but by God, so not knowable to us with any certainty. It's
very novel of him to say mathematics is an invention, and not a discovery!
He then extended this verum factum principle (the true and the made are
convertible) to human history which after all has been made by humans and
hence knowable by humans. Just as we have greater success with mathematics,
we shall have similar success with the *human sciences* - far greater than
with natural sciences! Since man is a participant in the historical
achievements, he can directly know himself through his participation (real
or imaginative) in the contemporary or historical achievements whereas he
can understand natural science only by inference from effect to cause.
For this scientific study of history, he said we should rely on myths, law,
language, rituals, etc. He also uncovered a sense of knowing which is basic
to all human sciences: to be poor, to fight for a cause, to understand a
gesture, a joke, etc. How does one know these things? It is a knowing
founded on personal experience, memory or imagination. This kind of knowing
is neither deductive nor inductive; this is a different mode of perception.
That indeed makes Vico an original thinker of great significance. With that
short intro, let us go to Uday Rao gAri's argument.
> Vico considered ancient Hebrew society unique ... providentially guided
> by God ... can only be understood in divine terms. All other ... guided
> by human efforts and can be studied in human terms.
> There are parallels between Hebrew and Vedic traditions ...
It's true Vico considered Hebrews special, but why should we agree with him?
This is what he said about women:
"Nothing is as antithetical to reason as the imaginative faculty. We can
observe this antithesis in women. Since they are endowed with strong
imagination, reason, in them, is less active; consequently, they are more
affected by potent and forceful passions than men."
I completely agree with him about potent passions:-), but my wife vehemently
disagrees with him about less active reason, and some scholars found this is
merely due to a failed love affair of Vico! His statement about Hebrews
being the Chosen people is, according to some scholars, because Vico being a
Catholic avoided the problem of the authority of Holy Scriptures.
Further, it's important to remember that Vico lived from 1668 to 1744, still
worked under the Biblical framework before Charles Lyell's geology or
Charles Darwin's biology pushed the timeline of prehistory by a very long
span. In any case, any postulation of a mysterious power of divination in
interpreting certain cultures will run against Vico's own philosophy of
history.
> In fairness to the subject ... Hindu Astrology has to be studied,
> how it came to be an important part of our heritage.
In our heritage, there is much to be proud of as well as some that is
reprehensible and some in between. And all of that can be studied, thanks to
Vico and others, under history, anthropology, linguistics - humanities and
social sciences at large. We don't need the "India Shining" Party to come
and dictate to Universities to start some new science.
> Mantreswara ... writes:
> "The nine planets ... bestowed on him the knowledge of
> accurately determining the effects of previous Karma on
> every individual. Having been convinced after many tests
> that they are successful ...
Accurately determined the effects of previous karma on everybody! And it has
been successfully tested! The numerous Swamijis who spread this gospel in
India and now around the world and their faithful followers, let them live
that 'blissful' life of known outcomes.
As for the others, I hope Tagore's line -
"Where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way into the dreary
desert sand of dead habit" - will resonate in their minds so that they can
*create* their lives.
Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao
Notes:
My ramblings on Vico, they are not much more than that, come from a few
hours of sporadic reading (while doing my weekend chores, which husbands
customarily do but wives rarely give credit for :-)) of the following papers
from "Giambattista Vico: An International Symposium," Giorgio Tagliacozzo,
Editor and Hayden V. White, Co-editor. Johns Hopkins University Press,
1969, held on the tercentenary of Vico's birth.
[1] "Vico's New Science of Myth," by David Bidney.
[2] "Vico and Mathematics," by Antonio Corsano.
[3] "A Note on Vico's Concept of Knowledge," by Isaiah Berlin.
maganti.vamsi
Dear Satyanarayana garu
> dhanyavAdAlu cebitE ikkaDa sthAnika ashTadiggajAlU, kRshNadEvarAyala
> vArU, itarulU, nijaMgAnE mirannavannI nEnu nammESAnanukunE pramAdaM
> uMdi. pOnI EmI rAyakuMDA UrukuMdAmA aMTE mari mIru nEnEdO cAlA
> pogarubOtu, talabirusu vedhavanani anukunE pramAdamU lEka pOlEdu.
asalE
> cAlA maMdi alAgE anukuMTunnArani nAku cUcAyigA telusu.
kRshNadEvarAyala vAru tana AsthAnaM lO vikaTakavIndrulu unnanDuku entO
uppongipOyEvAru ani vinnAnu..adE ikkaDa kUDA anvayistundi ani
bhAvistunnAnu. ika ashTadiggajAlu anTArA? paiki vikaTa kavula vAri
adhikshEpaNalaki noccukunnaTTu kanapaDinA, aayanni manasulO entO
abhimAnincEvAru ani nAku peddalu ceppagA telusu...mari mana diggajAlu
kUDA mimmalni entO abhimAnistAru ani anukunTunnAnu.
asalu mIlAnTi vAri vallE ee mana bhuvanavijayAniki (ikkaDa RB'ki) Sobha
vaccindanDI...lEkapOtE elA undEdO teliyadu mari...
> miMgAlEkA, kakkAlEkA nEnu paDE bAdha A dEvuDikE
> telusu. "kuMjarayUdhammu dOma kuttuka joccunEmO" kAnivvaMDi, eMta
> prayatniMcinA I mATalu mAtraM nA goMtulO miMguDu paDaTlEdaMDI bAbU.
EvO
> vedhava gItalu nAlugu barikEstU praSAMtaMgA jIvitAnni sAgistunna nAku
I
> birudAMkitapraSaMsalEMiTi mahASayA?
ayyayyO nEnu annI manasphUrti gAnE annAnu gurU gArU...meeru ilA antE
nEnu inkEmi ceppEdi?
> tiDitE pani jaragadani telusukuni, stOtrAlatO okka mATuna ThapImani nA
> pIka nokkE prayatnaM kAdu kadA? :-)
guru gAri pIkalu nokkE AshADhabhUti lAnTi vADini maTuku kAdu...mundE
ceppAnu mIku nENu Ekalayva SishyuDini ani...nammakapOtE nEnu EmI
ceyyalEnu... :)
vidhEyuDu
vamSI