Post modernism
Bhooshan
postmodernism,few on prose-poetry dichotomy,I would like to
clear the air.I congratulate sarva sri madhav,akshay,akkiraju,
siddhartha for their inputs on this otherwise complex topic..
"If you know where you are,
you can show where they are !!
If you dont know where you are
you cann't show where they are"
i think intelligent readers could easily sense above statements
depict the woeful plight of this modernist/postmodernist gang.
they dont know where they are that is the problem...
post modernism exists only in comparison with modernism,if there is
no modernism there is no postmodernism,i dont think any reader would
have any problem with my statement,pm serves as a sequel to
Modernism,it can not breathe blithely its own life in the absence
of former,if there is no ramayanam ,how can you think of uttara
ramayanam.same is true with post modernism.
One more thing the plight of literary theorists is when ever they
borrow terms from other popular movements,they carry load of
confusion and concomitant obscurant mud spilled over by naive
critics, literally more they write giving more to confusion than to
conclusion,in this sri madhav is right.
impressionism(which draws from our latest finding in optics and play
of light,causing impeccable impression on the mind of
viewer ) ,expressionism(contradicting former,tries to bring painter's
character into the picture,vangogh a pioneer),surrealism (trust the
unconscious,come out from the clutters of clear reason,Dali is
wellknown ) entered literary theory from art,how ever they were
clearly understood by largesse of material available,that too they
are related to concrete art ,so understanding was never a problem ..
Imagism propounded by ezra pound ,who accentuated the use of clear
cut solid language,from the knowledge or impression he gained from
translating eastern poets(chinese/japanese)who wield the brush with
equal ease to paint a picture or to pen a poem.
russian movement in poetry known as acmeism is the pure literary
theory which released the poetry from shackles of symbolism which
again inturn more interested in making the poetry subservient to the
cause of music(rimbaud,varlain and other french poets promoted
symbolism),still we can understand symbolism too because it is
talking about other fine art music...well understood ,canonnized.
The main problem comes with dogmatists who corpuslift theories un
related to the cause of literature and brand and label that,if
possible go for mass production imititating cheap chinese goods.
marxism was a dogma which ruled and ruined the literary world,for
more than a century because it is dogma no viable explanation is
possible,just preach in pontiff voice "thou art..."!!
post modernism can be called as postmarxism as it rivals the former
in all means -dogma,preaching,anguish,anxiety,taboo and not useful in
any way to understand anything called on the name of literature..only
the fundamental difference being marxism got atleast one great
philosopher of the century and millions of mediocre followers,where
as this dogma got millions of mediocre philosophers and less number
of frolic followers..So no wonder a nobel laurate poet/critic like
Octavio Paz once scoffed at question of postmodernism,putting a
straight question if i am postmodern what about my grand son,postpost
modern?? he jeered at the idea of PM and mocked that mob !!
They are so many rumbling noices in our own back yard,carrying garden
variety postmodern pumpkins,big or small no matter,they dont want to
miss any bandwagon with big labels:feminism,marxism,pm...save poetry.
our great poet Sri Isamil on his 75th birth day function mocked this
gang coining a word ఉత్తరాధునిక కుమరులు !!
if anybody really wants to know what is post modernism ,without much
confusion i request to read last para of this essay.
http://www.eemaata.com/issue19/aakulo.html
if you want to know something about TSEliot who is considered as
modern and originator of so called impersonal poetry against which
our postmodern preachers parrot like "we are against eliotian order"
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/racchabanda/message/3447,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/racchabanda/message/3541
if you are still persistent, modern poetry after modernism,by
longbeach will be slim and slicy volume on this topic.
summary of our discussion, post modernism is related to
art,architecture film,critical theory and what not even for preparing
appadams(have you ever tasted a postmodern uppdam,i did ,it is
brittle and rattles like lemon leaf;culinary delight)is a dogma or an
empty box,you can put anything and get nothing out of it.nothing to
worry about it because poetry/art is related to heart not to mind
where dogmas multiply like encephalitis mosquitos.
we can conclude with kalidasu,puraaNamityEva na saadhu sarvam,nachapi
vadyam navaani kaavyam;just replace kaavyam with vaadam.
for akshay:as all donkeys(Equas asinus) belongs Equas family,poets of
all hues and colors belong to one family-poetry and they write
poetry ,that is one and the same.from greek lyric poetess sappho
(predates hellinic age,ie socrates,aritstophanes
etc),chinese/japanese poets of ancient lore to modern times(
kavafi,holan,borges,whitman,poe,stickey,neruda,montale, sri
sri,tilak ,ajantha,ismail ) poetry is expression of pure
emotions ,experiences no dogmatic danglings or dialectical
dualisms.it is just poetry as pure as morning dew..carried the beacon
light and served as lamp post for dithering boats in frenzied waters
overlooking horrendous skies.
for siddhartha
<But one comment, you are talking about the difference between prose
<and poetry in the traditional sense and I was talking about it in
<the contemporary sense. For example, I find many passages in "Gods
<of Small Things" very poetic. Roy writes with very high metaphors
<which are themselves machines for re-reading. Similarly, I have seen
<poetry today that is plain prose written in "thinner columns".
poetry transcends the boundaries of time,so there is no such thing as
contemporary sense in poetry which is semantic of all arts,.from
centuries we are observing such passages in prose,but still we call
them prose,it lacks form.water is different from crystal made out of
water,but still we differentiate saying water exists in different
states !!in our telugu poets like vajir rehman separated such
passages from chalam and published as poetry,but chalam declined to
call it as poetry in his musings saying it lacks form,that is other
discussion.
if the poetry today you have seen is plain prose, that is just prose
meeting needs of daily chores,that's it,how ever either of above two
should not become apology for writing badprose/poetry and not
identifying distinction of poetry from prose.
poetry is sublime,sharp with laconic intensity,no delay just out and
out display of pure emotions/experiences,just using language as
carrier,as electricity uses filament.and glows bright.use of
metaphors alone can not make one poet,that is one old horse hailed
as rode by every Norse naivete'!!
Thank you all...have a nice weekend.
Regards
bhooshan.
From mvmachavaram@y... Fri Oct 18 15:59:24 2002
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Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 22:57:33 -0000
To: racch...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re:Post Modernism (was Re: 2 Interviews)
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--- In racchabanda@y..., "Akshay" <cydonian_god@h...> wrote:
>Gabriel Garcia Marquez. He's the master you are looking for.
>Salman Rushdie is also a good example, especially his first novel,
>Grimus.(Grimus of course uses magic realism as a narrative device,
>like Marquez).
I do like Rushdie a lot(..least until "the ground beneath her feet")
especially his all time best "The Midnight Children" which I reccomend
to one and all.
But... the implicit suggestion that "Magical Realism" as a narrative
device is part of PM's literary tool chest, is something I only accept
with a pinch of salt, for the time being. (agian, PM is used in the
sense of being a distinct literary trend...)
I wonder whether we have any works in telugu which used Magical
realism? Can the great satire హాహా హూహూ by శ్రీ విశ్వనాధ
come under this technique? That's the only work readily comes to my
mind what not with sanskrit speaking donkey in London. (I am refering
here to the presentation of abnormal as normal...)
I request the knowledgeable ra.ba'ites to pitch in.
>In short, the elements of a post-modernist discourse are non-linear.
>Why should that be lesser art? Then again, post-modernist art *need
>not* be non-linear. Counter-example:- దాసరి నరయణ రావు's Maya
>Bazaar.
Who said anyhting about being lesser? Is it distinctly unique, is all
we worry! isn't it?
You seem to have this knack of pulling examples of movies I did not
see :-) So no comments. The only Maya bazaar I saw was the B&W one
with ANR, NTR, SVR, sAvithri ...
>there's an allegation that the extro beat in the original song is a
>take-off from one of Dr. Alban's songs....
It is true. But at that time half of the world was (still is) using
commercially availble "loops" of electronic music. So it could be that
both used the same loop. (Let us not even start on the plagiarism of
tunes by Indian MDs..runs in to 100s)
>My point:- it's rather moot to invalidate a whole new paradigm just
>like that. I can easily argue that there's *some* amount of
>post-modernism in *all* cultural objects, although some are overly
>so.
You made PM sound like కృష్ణ పరమాత్మ from the గీత :-)
I neither invalidate it nor see it as omnipresent. I only hope it
*completely de-familiarizes* it self from other trends to avoid this
"I am in all and all are in me" syndrome. :-)
Warm Regards
Madhav
Courtesy: http://www.kanneganti.com/
Akshay
> no modernism there is no postmodernism,i dont think any reader would
> have any problem with my statement,pm serves as a sequel to
> Modernism,it can not breathe blithely its own life in the absence
> of former,if there is no ramayanam ,how can you think of uttara
> ramayanam.same is true with post modernism.
Bad analogy. Scroll down to know the reason why.
> One more thing the plight of literary theorists is when ever they
> borrow terms from other popular movements,they carry load of
> confusion and concomitant obscurant mud spilled over by naive
> critics, literally more they write giving more to confusion than to
> conclusion,in this sri madhav is right.
Don't call it "post-modernist literature", call it "metafiction". Problem
solved.
Yes, that's a post-modernist response! :-)
> for akshay:as all donkeys(Equas asinus) belongs Equas family,poets of
> all hues and colors belong to one family-poetry and they write
> poetry ,that is one and the same.from greek lyric poetess sappho
> (predates hellinic age,ie socrates,aritstophanes
> etc),chinese/japanese poets of ancient lore to modern times(
> kavafi,holan,borges,whitman,poe,stickey,neruda,montale, sri
> sri,tilak ,ajantha,ismail ) poetry is expression of pure
> emotions ,experiences no dogmatic danglings or dialectical
> dualisms.it is just poetry as pure as morning dew..carried the beacon
> light and served as lamp post for dithering boats in frenzied waters
> overlooking horrendous skies.
I assume your metaphor of a donkey was meant to be colourful and not a
flamebait.
But you miss my point:- I was suggesting that the synergy between the poetry
genre and certain prose genres can be seen in pos... err, meta-fictional
terms. I believe it is metafictional because there's a certain amount of
conflict between the two genres; could it be, that to insert one in another,
you have to rip genres, so to speak?
I don't think I ever attacked the definition of poetry. I'm not a Modernist!
:-D
Metafiction is by no means restricted to the post-modern age; it's been
there ever since civilisation started. I have tried earlier showing to you
all how almost *every* cultural object is metafictional in *some* sense.
I'll elaborate even further. Would you consider Charlie Chaplin to be
metafictional? I believe he is in at least one movie; in the "Great
Dictator", he takes an existing cultural object, (Hitler), rips it apart and
makes a whole new cultural object.
To sign off, here are two tidbits:-
First, an article from Kuro5shin on a "post-modernist sport"
(http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/9/23/151338/083)
Second, okay, I guess I'm feeding oil to the flame, but this "Postmodernism
Generator" creates a totally meaningless essay on post-modernism each time
you access the page. It's totally hilarious; I urge everyone to hit
"Refresh" at least twice after going to the page.
(http://www.elsewhere.org/cgi-bin/postmodern/) Don't think it *proves* the
futility of the post-modernist theory, rather, it's a metafictional take on
the essays-on-postmodernism genre.
Cheerio,
Akshay
Courtesy: http://www.kanneganti.com/
Sreenadh Jonnavithula
> Second, okay, I guess I'm feeding oil to the flame, but this
"Postmodernism
> Generator" creates a totally meaningless essay on post-modernism each time
> you access the page. It's totally hilarious; I urge everyone to hit
> "Refresh" at least twice after going to the page.
> (http://www.elsewhere.org/cgi-bin/postmodern/) Don't think it *proves* the
> futility of the post-modernist theory, rather, it's a metafictional take
on
> the essays-on-postmodernism genre.
>
I think these are some of the best essays on postmodernism that I've seen !!
;-)
I wish someone would come up with an equivalent program to generate "art"
I mean the painting sort).
- Sreenadh
Courtesy: http://www.kanneganti.com/