[racchabanda] కాలిదాసు - రండ, శ్రీనాథుడు - రండాసుత
J. K. Mohana Rao
భవభూతి, దండి, కాలిదాసు - వీరిని గుఱించిన
కథలో కాలిదాసు సరస్వతిని రండ అని సంబోధించెను.
రండాకు బదులు దేవీ లేక వాణీ ఇత్యాదులను వాడి ఉండినయెడల
పద్యము ఔచిత్యముతో శోబించియుండెడిది. ఇది కట్టు కథ
ఆ పద్యమును కాలిదాసు వ్రాయలేదు. చదువులతల్లిని అట్లు
పిలువలేదు.
శ్రీనాథుడు హరవిలాసములో కిరాతార్జునీయ ఘట్టములో
ఈ పదమును ఔచిత్యభంగముగా వాడెను. కిరాతుని
వేషములో నున్న శివుడు, పాశుపతాస్త్రమునకై తపస్సు
చేయు అర్జునుడు ఒక పందిని ఒకే సమయములో కొట్టిరి.
ఆ పంది నాదని ఇద్దఱు తగవులాడు సమయములో
అర్జునుడు పలికినట్లు కవిసార్వభౌముడు ఈ క్రింది
పద్యమును వ్రాసెను. అర్జునునికి ఆ బోయ శివుడని
తెలిసియుండినయెడల వానిని రండాసుత అని పిలిచియుండడు.
ఐనను ఈ సందర్భములో రండాసుత అను పదము అనౌచిత్యమే.
మండెడు బలు నారసమున
గుండియ పగులంగ నేసి కూల్చితి దీనిన్
వెండి ప్రయోజన మేదీ
రండాసుత దీనిపై శరము నిగుడింపన్
- శ్రీనాథుని హరవిలాసము (7.54)
విధేయుడు - జెజ్జాల కృష్ణ మోహన రావు
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lylayer
wrote:
>
>
> మండెడు బలు నారసమున
> గుండియ పగులంగ నేసి కూల్చితి దీనిన్
> వెండి ప్రయోజన మేదీ
> రండాసుత దీనిపై శరము నిగుడింపన్
> - శ్రీనాథుని హరవిలాసము (7.54)
>
> విధేయుడు - జెజ్జాల కృష్ణ మోహన రావు
>
ఈ పద్యములో అర్జునుడు మాయా కిరాతుడిని కాక, పందిని 'రండాసుతా
అంటున్నాడేమో?
Can that not be right?
regards
lyla
V.Narayana Rao
Lyla is right when she asked, "Doesn't vyraMsIt^ mean ended?" And Veluri
also right when he thought it had something to do with " enjoyed."
Here is how it goes:
The root is ram^ "to enjoy, to make love, to have pleasure etc."
but when vi is prefixed the root changes its meaning to "end, conclude,
stop."
Telugu uses both these forms: ramiMcu, "to make love", and viramiMcu,
"to conclude, to stop."
vyaramsIt^ is the past tense (lu~n^), third person singular form of
vi+ram^, which, incidentally, takes AtmanEpadi forms.
vnr
Panini
> >
>
> > మండెడు బలు నారసమున
> > గుండియ పగులంగ నేసి కూల్చితి దీనిన్
> > వెండి ప్రయోజన మేదీ
> > రండాసుత దీనిపై శరము నిగుడింపన్
> > - శ్రీనాథుని హరవిలాసము (7.54)
> >
> ఈ పద్యములో అర్జునుడు మాయా కిరాతుడిని కాక, పందిని 'రండాసుతా
> అంటున్నాడేమో?
>
> Can that not be right?
No.
Regards,
Panini
V.Narayana Rao
Atamanepadi terminations. But when prefixed by vi, it takes
Parasmaipadi terminations:
Atmanepadi forms go like
ramatE, ramEtE ramaMtE etc.
Prefixed by vi, the Parsmaipadi forms go like
viramati viramatah viramaMti etc.
----------
In lu~n^(past) third person singular, Parasmaipadi. vi+ram^ becomes
vi+araMsIt^.
vi+araMsIt^ = vyaraMsIt^
vnr
lylayer
--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, "J. K. Mohana Rao" <jkmrao@...>
wrote:
>
> ఆ పంది నాదని ఇద్దఱు తగవులాడు సమయములో > అర్జునుడు
పలికినట్లు కవిసార్వభౌముడు ఈ క్రింది > పద్యమును వ్రాసెను.
అర్జునునికి ఆ బోయ శివుడని > తెలిసియుండినయెడల వానిని రండాసుత
అని పిలిచియుండడు. > ఐనను ఈ సందర్భములో రండాసుత అను పదము
అనౌచిత్యమే.
> > ఈ పద్యములో అర్జునుడు మాయా కిరాతుడిని కాక, పందిని 'రండాసుతా
> > అంటున్నాడేమో?
> > Can that not be right? ( lyla asks )
--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, "Panini" <srpanini@...> wrote:
> No.
> Regards,
> Panini
Why?
1. why is the word inappropriate ?
2. If it is not right it is not right.:-) Why is it not right?
మసజసతతగల
ససజభసజసల
జగడము లాడబోము
మీ సరివారలము కాము
విద్యార్ధులము మేము!
ముచ్చటగ ముగ్గులిడిన ఈ
బడి ప్రాంగణమున నిలచి
చీర చెరగు పరచి
దేహి సరస్వతీ! దేహీ!
యనుచు మిమ్మర్ధించు
స్వార్ధులము మేము!
విద్యార్ధులము మేము.
జగడములాడగ బోము
ఆగడములు జేయగ బోము
నిజముగ మేము.
thanks
lyla
J. K. Mohana Rao
--- lylayer <lyl...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Why?
>
> 1. why is the word inappropriate ?
> 2. If it is not right it is not right.:-) Why is it not right?
>
రండ అనగా దుష్ట స్త్రీ లేక నడత లేని ఆడుది అని అర్థము.
(పుంలింగముగా దీనికి మగబిడ్డలేనివాడని అర్థము.)
దానిని లం-- అనే అర్థములో వాడుచుందురు. రండాసుతుడు అనగా
లం--కొ---- అను అర్థములో ఇది వాడబడినది. ఒక గొప్ప
కావ్యములో ఇట్టి పదము ఉచితము కాదని నా తలపు. బహుశా
ఇది ఆ కాలపు అలవాటో ఏమో? కిరాతుని కులము నీచ కులముగా
భావించిరి కావున అట్టి కులములో పుట్టినవారిని శ్రీనాథుని
కాలములో ఇట్లు పిలుచుచుండిరేమో?
నా విశదీకరణము తప్పైనచో మన్నించవలెను.
- మోహన
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viplavreddy
> కావ్యములో ఇట్టి పదము ఉచితము కాదని నా తలపు. బహుశా
> ఇది ఆ కాలపు అలవాటో ఏమో? కిరాతుని కులము నీచ కులముగా
> భావించిరి కావున అట్టి కులములో పుట్టినవారిని శ్రీనాథుని
> కాలములో ఇట్లు పిలుచుచుండిరేమో?
>
I don't think it has anything to do with caste. If it does, then it
can't be a గొప్ప కావ్యం.
imagine those days -- arjuna goes for hunting. What is he wearing?
He is most likely looking 'cool' with his outfit etc., or atleast
has a neat face/clothing. He thought he had made his kill only to
find out he might have to face the truth. He is irate. Worse yet,
he sees a kiraatuDu now he has to haggle over with. What does a
kiraatuDu look like in comparison. Even though it is not clear
(from this poem alone) if would have cared if it is god himself
infront of him.
Poet is describing the words unrehearsed mouthed off from Arjuna.
What is wrong? It sounds very appropriate.
There is not a hint of kulaM based niMda here. besides, kiraatuDu
may not be a kulaM -- at all.
I initially thought it could be a చమత్కారం (that is sorely
lacking in current day abhyudaya/viplava kavitvaM) by the poet, but
it sounds more like a serious business for him -- it is about his
hunt. Arjuna is mad and he cares for no one, even if it is god he
has to now share the glory & the food with.
regards, viplav
PS. I am doing quite well, thank you for asking, Lyla. I hear KHR
is not in the building but he may check back with us, he is wrong to
assume that vaDDera is a low caste --
lylayer
wrote:
> Poet is describing the words unrehearsed mouthed off from Arjuna.
> What is wrong? It sounds very appropriate.
I agree with you. Poet has to use words with no hesitation what
so ever to create the proper effect. Only then the poem can become
interesting and convincing.
> it sounds more like a serious business for him -- it is about his
> hunt. Arjuna is mad and he cares for no one, even if it is god he
> has to now share the glory & the food with.
Arjuna is not hunting, in the story i read. :) But he has good
reasons to get mad and abusive.
The story is as follows.
ధర్మరాజు జూదమాడి పాండవుల కొంప ముంచాడు. పాండవులు అడవుల్లో
జేరారు . ఆర్జునుడి మీద దివ్యాస్త్రాలు సంపాదించుకు రావలిసిన భారం
మోపింది కుటుంబం. ధర్మజుడు - తనకు వ్యాసుడు పక్కకు తీసుకు
వెళ్ళి చేసిన ఉపదేశం- చక్కగా తమ్ముడికి సరఫరా చేశాడు. ద్రౌపది -
అవమానపు సముద్రం లో అంతా పడి ఏడుస్తున్నాం. నువ్వు కరుణతో
ఉద్ధరించు. అని పైగా :-) 'తన స్నేహలాలసవిలోలాపాంగవిలోకనంబులం
పార్ధు పరిగ్రహీత పాధేయుంధ్ేసింది.
It is really that look draupadi gave that made Arjuna hit the road.
Still it is a maddening mission. Not such a joyous one as getting
సౌగంధికా పుష్పం. that she assigns to Bhima.
So Arjuna travels, first he goes to ఇంద్రకీల పర్వతం, and then
his father Indra tells him to go to Himalayas . To pray Siva. to
get powerful weapons, so he can win the war against Kauravas.
హిమశైల శిఖరమున కేగి తపోవనం లో శివుడిని ఉద్దేశించి తపస్సు
చేసుకుంటున్నాడు అర్జునుడు.
మూడు నెల్లుగా సరిగ్గా భోజనము లేదు. ఉపవాస వ్రతం. ఒక్క కాలి
బొటన వేలు మీద నించుని ఉండటం. నాల్గవ మాసం లో వాయు భోజనం
మాత్రమే చేశాడు పాపం.
How angry will a hungry king be!
As though it is not enough trouble, a huge pig charges at Arjuna.
Now this pig is not cute as the trophy pig Lord EMsworth has at
Blandings castle.
పర్వతము లాగా ఉన్నది. భీకరాకారము గల సూకరమిది
So he puts an arrow into it. ఎరుక రాజు simultaneously does the
same thing. When asked by Arjuna , eruka does not reveal his
identity. He provokes Arjuna to fight with him. And Arjuna did.
In war you say bad words to each other. Kirata ( Siva) called
Arjuna names. Arjuna calls him a few names. They fight. When he
spent all his arrows, Arjuna hits kirAta with his గాండీవం. Kirata
takes it away. Arjuna hits kirAta with his sword. Kirata takes it
away. Arjuna hits kirata with trees. kirAta breaks them like twigs.
Arjuna then hits him with his fists. kirAta grabs Arjuna and
squeezes the day lights out of him. Arjuna faints.
If I am the poet, I will make Arjuna pick up the fight all over
again after recovering from the swoon. because i think he will be
madder , for being beaten up so badly . It is just not that . When
you get mad, you not only remember the present insult, but the
previous, the previous and the one before that. That is how it
goes. All the pent up hurt , frustration and anger gets vented out.
The more helpless the once mighty becomes, the madder one gets.
Same with Arjuna. Arjuna will be cursing under breath, his brother,
his father, grandfathers, fate etc. And all of it comes out on the
varAhamu, kirAtuDu -whoever will first provoke him.
Anyway, Arjuna did not know kirata is Siva nor that the pig is a
demon in disguise. During the fight Arjuna suspects, this kirata is
no ordinary person. Yet, He fights with all his might, until he is
drops.
Siva is the one who created the spurious fight to test Arjuna if
he is worthy of receiving the పాశుపతాస్త్ర. More over, in the
fight Siva establishes his might and superiority by winning the
fight.
Only then, Siva admires Arjuna's courage, praises Arjuna that he
has no parallal among kshatriyas, and says 'I will give what you
want. i will make you win the whole world.' and as an added bonus
Siva gives Arjuna దివ్య దృష్టి and shows his స్వరూపం. I
bet, that must be impressive.
I took the above story line from మహాభారతము- అరణ్య పర్వము -
ప్రధమాశ్వాసము. But if this story is elaborated on a grander
scale, in haravilAsamu i would expect the poet శ్రినాధ to make
Arjuna say pretty bad words before he got to know kirAtuDu is
Siva .
And Srinadha, dear Srinadha, from what i hear -is not a poet who is
mealy mouthed and minces his words.
regards
lyla
J. K. Mohana Rao
--- viplavreddy <vipla...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't think it has anything to do with caste. If it does, then it
> can't be a గొప్ప కావ్యం.
>
haravilAsamu is a very well-written book of verses.
The saptamASvAsa dealing with arjuna obtaining the
pASupatAstra is indeed beautiful. Besides some
fantastic poetry including some extremely well
composed sIsamulu, it contains an udAharaNa too
(each poem in a different vibhakti). After the
discussion on raMDa, I suddenly remembered this
poem and felt that it must be shared. That is all.
In spite of this anauchitya, SrInAtha is atill
kavisArvabhauma, no doubts about it!
Regards! - mOhana
Link for the udaharaNa padyamulu in haravilAsamu-
published on Oct 2, 2000 (unfortunately archives
are not available to quote the message number.)
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Sesha Vadapalli (VSTSayee)
--- lylayer <lyl...@aol.com> wrote:
> --- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, "viplavreddy" <viplavreddy@...>
> wrote:
>
>
> > Poet is describing the words unrehearsed mouthed off from Arjuna.
> > What is wrong? It sounds very appropriate.
>
>
> I agree with you. Poet has to use words with no hesitation what
> so ever to create the proper effect. Only then the poem can become
> interesting and convincing.
>
In another message
> --- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, "viplavreddy" <viplavreddy@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > may be the story of dark rama went like this:
> >
> > rama walks in and sees his darker version on his ivory bed, lost in
> > cempala tanmayaM.
> >
> > rama says: hey, are you not early for this yugaM? raMDAsuta siggu
> > Saramu niguDiMpan^!
> >
Is it appropriate to make రామ, మితభాషి - మృదుభాషి -
మర్యాదాపురుషోత్తమ, utter that word?
Also, how appropriate is it to place సీత in that తన్మయ situation with
other than her rAma?
But then, what do I know about imagination, I am neither a writer of fiction
nor a painter of naked Gods.
--
Regards,
Sayee.
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Sesha Vadapalli (VSTSayee)
--- "J. K. Mohana Rao" <jkm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Link for the udaharaNa padyamulu in haravilAsamu-
> published on Oct 2, 2000 (unfortunately archives
> are not available to quote the message number.)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/racchabanda/message/1161
--
Regards,
Sayee.
Hanuma Kodavalla
>From: "viplavreddy" <vipla...@gmail.com>
>Reply-To: racch...@yahoogroups.com
>To: racch...@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [racchabanda] Re: కాలిదాసు - రండ, శ్రీనాథుడు - రండాసుత
>Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 15:24:06 -0000
>
>PS. I am doing quite well, thank you for asking, Lyla. I hear KHR
>is not in the building but he may check back with us, he is wrong to
>assume that vaDDera is a low caste --
I still have limited internet access as I stopped in London to check out if
the British Museum rewrote history about Marx and the Manisfesto. :-)
Vaddera is officially a backward community. I don't know the exact group
status but from my village experience they were treated as the lowest and in
fact were the poorest amongst the BCs.
I don't have other data or Chandidas's interview handy. Please explain why I
am wrong.
KHR
lylayer
--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, "Sesha Vadapalli \(VSTSayee\)"
<seshavadapalli@...> wrote:
> Is it appropriate to make రామ, మితభాషి - మృదుభాషి -
> మర్యాదాపురుషోత్తమ, utter that word?
> Also, how appropriate is it to place సీత in that తన్మయ
situation with
> other than her rAma?
Inappropriate! More like impossible i would say.
If some one is really writing a Ramayan scene. Or doing a
painting/sculpture of Ramayan scene. Such dialogue or depiction
goes against the grain of those core characters. Then such
wording or depiction will be totally unconvincing.
>
> But then, what do I know about imagination, I am neither a writer
of fiction
> nor a painter of naked Gods.
What is it about Naked Gods. Who is painting them. I did not
understand Sai garu..
Anyway, :(
No one yet explained/clarified the question i asked about the
poem in Haravilaasamu.
Is it grammatically incorrect to read the words రండసుత దీనిపై
together? and link the word in question to the varAhamu. why
must we interpret that word as a సంబోధన ఒఫ్ కిరాత? ఠత్
ఇస్ థె ఉఎస్తిఒన్ ఇ ఇనితీల్ల్య్ అస్కెద్.
>హ్త్త్ప్://గ్రౌప్స్.యహూ.చొం/గ్రౌప్/రచ్చబంద/మెస్సగె/1161
SivastutigAnu, uDaharaNala citrakavitvamu gAnu , haravilAsamu
lOni padyAlu bAgunnAyi. cinnaya sUri vyAkaraNamu maLLI cadavAli
nEnu.
ఠంక్స్ ఫొర్ థె లింక్ అంద్ పొస్త్.
Regards
lyla.
lylayer
wrote: (in another message )
> I still have limited internet access as I stopped in London to
check out if
> the British Museum rewrote history about Marx and the
Manisfesto. :-)
>
Aha! So you are reading rb. We will keep you entertained. read On!
( in rb message 16098 , About Karl Marx, KHR says )
>
> Of course we know none of that sort happened, as unlike a foreign
tourist> covering the museum, the man was in the Reading Room from 9
to 7 almost> every day!
As though there was an attendance log, and you have verified it. :-)
> For those who proudly claim that history is, well, history, this
might be a
> trivial detail, but the Manifesto was first published in 1848 and
Marx took
> refuge in London in 1849! The "slender" book Marx toiled on in the
British
> Museum was "Das Capital," not the Manifesto.
If only you went to St. Martin theatre, in London, and watched
Agatha Christie's play 'Mouse Trap' which is into its 54th year of
non-stop play.:-)
(The real error was in the stated length of the communist
manifesto.)
I don't know, how you can be certain Karl did not visit British
Museum before 1849. If I could visit The British Museum three
times during my short stay , why can't Karl? A big time reader?
KHR, It is possible you know.
For, Karl Marx was in London before 1849. In November 1847 he
went to attend the meeting of the "Communist league." Karl Marx
visited England Between 1845-47. With his friend Engells, he went
to Engell's offices in Manchester. and he saw the industrial
Lancashire, The seeds for his doctrine are chiefly from these
visits . He was coming up with grand generalisations just by looking
at a single example.
Any way, so that i finish this post and i can go read :-) 'the
romantic manifesto' by Ayan Rand:
History says: The original document of "'The Communist
Manifesto" which was in German, was only 14 pages long. It had
about 12,000 words. Karl Marx concocted it in about 6 weeks, in
Brussels . ( How do I know any of this. Only from the books i
read. )
Karl wrote the manifesto under threat of the "Communist League" in
London, who sent him an ultimatum 'either you deliver it to us by
this Feb1st, or else! it is not a huge organization as it
sounds. Or as Karl makes it to be. it only had handful of members,
chiefly tailors.
But why did they ask him to write the manifesto.?
Karl Marx rose up and spoke in their meeting. He is champing at his
bit to try out his new theory and he needed deciples to try it on.
So when he spoke heatedly, the tailors and cobblers and few other
rioters who made to the meeting , got hooked. Naturally the league
asked him to write down his stuff. Sure. Why won't they? He was a
journalist before.
Luckily for him, Karl Marx made the dead line and saved himself
from the ' Or Else! .' threat of Communist league.
He wrote the Manifesto under pressure, with no time for cautious
thinking, using a little leaflet of the league, a little writing of
Engels, and his suggestion to call it a manifesto and a little of
his own prior writing. Marx's writing is not known to be simple or
direct. The Manifesto was simple in style and is praised for its
simplicity. Karl had to make it simple, because it is expressly
written for the illiterate tailors .
The original writing no longer exist. Yeah! Karl marx's writing was
hurried to a London press in Feb, 1848 before the revolution and
was published as a 23 page pamphlet. A corrected edition was brought
out couple of months later. The manifesto was forgotten during the
revolution. The original communist league disappeared soon. But the
manifesto lived on. As per my reading, the version of c.manifesto
that got republished in 1866 is the basis for subsequent German
editions, and other translations into other languages then on.
That is how it seems , 'Communist Manifesto,' is born, the
leaflet which held the doctrines of an outlook, later to be
known as Marxism.
Marxism became the religion for many indeed and the communist
manifesto became their holy book. Many of the believers have never
even read this manifesto. just like any other religious texts as
Bible, Koran remain unread in the world . But to this date, many
people swear by them, live by them and die for them.
regards
lyla.
viplavreddy
siggu
> > > Saramu niguDiMpan^!
> > >
>
> Is it appropriate to make రామ, మితభాషి - మృదుభాషి -
> మర్యాదాపురుషోత్తమ, utter that word?
Now that you asked for the story behind this, I must take you to a
heaven, where kalabhaashiNi asked the same question once before,
lost in her own tanmayaM and aaliMganaM under the shade of
paarijaataM, wanting to forget the sweat, a result that is not out
of making love, but just as an after effect of an unusual heat wave
that sweapt through the valley.
Her husband, kAladharuDu looked at her in surprise and replied "your
questions about beliefs and unbeliefs fascinate me! do you know that
gods wanted to test if Rama was a god or a human?"
He said, "If your husband sees us in this position now he would
certainly not leave me with chiding or cussing alone. Would you not
agree?" he added, "he is a god to you or not?, you tell me, if your
husband is a god or 'just a man'. A man who is able to murder a
number of innocent asurulu who are upto doing nothing but their
swaami kaaryam to get his wife back wouldn't be able to cuss at
someone who he thought is on the same bed with his wife, especially
if he 'knows' the other person as his own after life?"
> Also, how appropriate is it to place సీత in that తన్మయ
situation with
> other than her rAma?
I am sure Saayi gaaru heard of the story that siita in Ravana's
custody was not a real seeta, agni returned the real one once she
jumped into the pyre.
On a side track (I can't tell which one is a side track, the above
or the one below):
One of my friends who watched Ramanand Sagar's Ramayan hated the
thought that the star who played siita, 'Deepika' would act with
other actors and act in duets; he refused to watch those movies. He
was satisfied with her as a Member of Parliament from Vadodara while
never speaking a single word as an MP.
If the the idea of siita is so ingrained into the psyche, one has a
choice. But I would think reasonable minds, like the conservatives
of Kansas State, would not insist on an education that requires
concurrent teaching of biblical imagery in science class with
respect to evolution.
Human mind is the greatest, because it can entertain a thought that
is contradictory to its own belief, didn't we read on this forum
sometime ago?
> But then, what do I know about imagination, I am neither a writer
of fiction
> nor a painter of naked Gods.
Gods I dont think wear clothes, if they do, they dress up like
madonna and bono, may be. Gods are not immune, mohammad or rama,
they will be treated the same, not because we as humans strive for
it but because they, those same gods, insist on it.
regards, viplav
V.Narayana Rao
lylayer wrote:
> poem in Haravilaasamu.
>
> Is it grammatically incorrect to read the words రండసుత దీనిపై
> together? and link the word in question to the varAhamu. why
> must we interpret that word as a సంబోధన ఒఫ్ కిరాత? ఠత్
> ఇస్ థె ఉఎస్తిఒన్ ఇ ఇనితీల్ల్య్ అస్కెద్.
>
>
ళ్య్ల, యౌ అస్కెద్ అన్ ఇంతెరెస్తింగ్ ఉఎస్తిఒన్. ఠె ఉఎస్తిఒన్ ఇస్ రెలతెద్ తొ థె
గెందెర్ ఒఫ్ రండాసుత. హెరె
సుత ఇస్ మస్చులినె అంద్ థెరెఫొరె అప్ప్లిఎస్ ఒన్ల్య్ తొ థె కిరాత. ఈత్ వౌల్ద్
బె రండాసుతుడు ఇఫ్ ఇత్ ఇస్ నొత్ అ వొచతివె.
ఈ దొణ్త్ సీ అన్య్ రీసొన్ వ్హ్య్ ఇత్ హస్ తొ బె మస్చులినె అంద్ వ్హ్య్ వె హవె తొ
తకె ఇత్ అస్ అ వొచతివె. ఈత్ మయ్ బె తకెన్ తొ బె అ నౌన్ ఫ్రసె, ఫెమినినె,
దెస్చ్రిబింగ్ థె వరాహము. ఠెన్ థె ఫొర్ం విల్ల్ బె రండాసుతా, బుత్ వె చన్
అస్సుమె థత్ లొంగ్ వౌఎల్ ఇన్ సుతా ఇస్ షొర్తెనెద్ అస్ ఇస్ ఉసూల్ విథ్ బొర్రౌఎద్
శన్స్క్రిత్ ఫెమినినె వొర్ద్స్ ఇన్ టెలుగు. ( ఎ.గ్. సీతా బెచొమెస్ సీత.) ఈన్
టెలుగు, అస్ యౌ అల్ల్ క్నౌ, హుమన్ ఫెమలె అంద్ నొన్-హుమన్ అరె గ్రౌపెద్ ఇంతొ
ఒనె గెందెర్ ఇన్ సింగులర్.శించె వొర్ద్స్ దెనొతింగ్ అనిమల్స్ అంద్ వొమెన్ తకె థె
సమె ఎందింగ్ ఇన్ సింగులర్, వె మయ్ తకె రణ్డాసుత, అస్ అ ఫెమినినె చొంపౌంద్
దెస్చ్రిబెస్ థె వరాహము విథ్ అ ఇంప్లిఎద్ వొర్ద్ అయిన ఒర్ సొమెథింగ్ లికె థత్
సుప్ప్లిఎద్.
ఠె త్రౌబ్లె ఇస్ థత్ థిస్ ఇస్ అ ఫర్ ఫెత్చెద్ ఇంతెర్ప్రెతతిఒన్. ఠెరె ఇస్ నొ
ఎవిదెంచె థత్ అబుసివె వొర్ద్స్ వ్హిచ్ అరె ఉసూల్ల్య్ రెసెర్వెద్ ఫొర్ హుమన్స్ హవె
ఎవెర్ బీన్
అప్ప్లిఎద్ తొ అనిమల్స్. ఈ హవెణ్త్ చొమె అచ్రొస్స్ అ చసె వ్హెరె అ దొగ్ ఒర్ అ పిగ్ ఇస్
చల్లెద్ ఒర్ రెఫెర్రెద్ తొ అస్ లం---ముండ!
ఋఎమింద్స్ మె ఒఫ్ థె గిర్ల్ వ్హొ, వ్హెన్ షె హీర్ద్ హెర్ ఫ్రిఎంద్ చల్ల్ అ ఫెమలె దొగ్
అ బిత్చ్, సైద్ థత్ షె హద్ నెవెర్ హీర్ద్ థె వొర్ద్ అప్ప్లిఎద్ తొ అ దొగ్. ( నొత్
థె రిఘ్త్ అనలొగ్య్. థౌఘ్!)
ఠంక్ యౌ ళ్య్ల ఫొర్ అస్కింగ్ అ వెర్య్ ఇంతెరెస్తింగ్ ఉఎస్తిఒన్.
వ్న్ర్
టొ ఫొస్త్ అ మెస్సగె, సెంద్ ఇత్ తొ: రచ్చబందయహూగ్రౌప్స్.చొం
Courtesy: http://www.kanneganti.com/
Kameswara Rao
> lylayer wrote:
> > poem in Haravilaasamu.
I think a small confusion has given raise to all this discussion.
Let me try to clarify it.
It is not arjuna who utters the word "raMDAsuta" in this scene in
హర విలాసం. It is Siva in the disguise of kirAta who utters this
word. From the context it is more or less clear that it was ment
arjuna and not the sUkaraM.
I am giving below a few exerpts from హరవిలాసం for your reference.
అర్జునూణ్ణి మాయా కిరాతుడు "కపట ధార్మిక", "అత్యంత కలుషాత్మ" అని
కూడా తిడతాడు. ఆ సందర్భంలో కపటాగ్రహాన్ని ప్రదర్శించడమూ,
అర్జునుణ్ణి యుద్ధానికి పురికొల్పడమే ముఖ్యోద్దేశం కాబట్టి, అర్జునుణ్ణి
ఉద్దేశించే "రండా సుత" అని అనడంలో అసంగతం ఏమీ లేదు.
అంతేకాక నా కెలాంటి ఔచిత్య భంగమూ కనిపించటం లేదు. ఆ పదాన్ని
పల్కిన వాడు కిరాతుడు కాబట్టి. ఆ సందర్భంలో, అర్జునుడి చేత
శ్రీనాధుడు పలికించిన మాటలు ఎంతో ఔచిత్యంతో కూడుకున్నవి.
హరవిలాసం నుండి:
=================
అప్పుడు గిరాతవేషధారి యగు పురారి... సాటోపంబుగా సగర్వంబుగా
సావష్ఠంబంబుగా నిట్లనియె:
ఎవ్వడవురోరి నీవు నా యెదర బాఱు,
పంది నేసితి బాహుదర్పంబు మెఱసి
యెఱుగవుర యోరి నన్ను నీ యింద్రకీల
పర్వతం బేలు వనచరసార్వభౌము.
...
తబసివై యుండి తగురోరి ధనువు బట్ట
శాంతిపరులకు నేలరా సత్త్వహింస
కపట ధార్మిక యత్యంతకల్మషాత్మ
యెవ్వడవురోరి నా పంది నేయ నీవు.
మండెడు బలునారసమున
గుండియ పగులంగ నేసి కూల్చితి దీనిన్
వెండి ప్రయోజనమేదీ
రండా సుత! దీనిపై శరము నిగుడింపన్.
తబిసివిగాన జావునకు దప్పితి నీకిది వేటపంతమా
యబలుడ నీ తెఱంగున బరాటవికాయుత చాపవల్లరీ
నిబిడ శరాహతం బగువనేచరజంతువు నేసి తీగతిన్
సబముపయి న్నిగుడ్చిన నిశాతశిలీముఖ మెట్టి వెఱ్ఱిదో
అనినం గిరీటి యయ్యాటవికచక్రవర్తి కిట్లనియె.
పై వచ్చు క్రూరజంతువు
జే వెరవున నేయు టెందు సిగ్గే చెపుమా
యీ వక్రభాషణంబులు
నీ వాడెదు శబర పొమ్ము నీచను త్రొవన్.
పంది నపేక్షించితివో
పందెము గెలువంగ వేడ్కపడియెద వేదో
కందువుగా కాఫలము పు
ళిందాధిప యేమిటికి బలికె దీభంగిన్.
తడవేలోరి పుళింద రాజ! చను మధ్యాహ్నంబు డాయంగ న
య్యెడు నీ వేళ శివార్చనంబునకు మా కేకాంతమై యుండగా
బడు నీవుం గడు డస్సినాడ వటవీ పంక్తిప్రచారంబులన్
విడు కోపంబిదె శాంతి గైకొనుము వాగ్వీవాద మింతేటికిన్
జోటియు నీవును గుర్కుర
కోటియు ననుచరులు డప్పిగొన్నారు మహా
ధాటి పరిశ్రమమున ని
చ్చోట వసించెదర యేని సుఖముండదగున్.
====================
ఇలా తన మాటలతో అర్జునుడికి కోపం తెప్పించి యుద్ధానికి పురికొల్పలేక,
శివుడు యుద్ధానికి రమ్మని అతణ్ణి సూటిగా పిలుస్తాడు.
As an aside, ఇక్కడి "వాగ్వీవాద" పద ప్రయోగం శ్రీనాధుని
సంస్కృతపాండిత్యానికీ, ప్రౌఢత్వానికీ, ఒకానొక ఉదాహరణగా చూపిస్తారు.
regards,
Kameswara Rao.
V.Narayana Rao
says this word. Thanks for the correction, but the question Lyla asks,
if I understand her right, is not answered by clarifying this point.
(Sorry, when I wrote my response to Lyla, I just followed the ongoing
discussion but didn't check the original.)
The issue however is not about who spoke these words, but whether the
compound raMDAsuta could be applied to the
sUkara. vnr
Kameswara Rao wrote:
> --- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, "V.Narayana Rao" <vnrao@...> wrote:
>
> I think a small confusion has given raise to all this discussion.
> Let me try to clarify it.
> It is not arjuna who utters the word "raMDAsuta" in this scene in
> హర విలాసం. It is Siva in the disguise of kirAta who utters this
> word. From the context it is more or less clear that it was ment
> arjuna and not the sUkaraM.
To Post a message, send it to: racch...@yahoogroups.com
Courtesy: http://www.kanneganti.com/
Hanuma Kodavalla
>From: "lylayer" <lyl...@aol.com>
>If only you went to St. Martin theatre, in London, and watched Agatha
>Christie's play 'Mouse Trap' ...
I remember when I started writing on RB, once when you didn't know how to
answer my counter argument (about planes falling due to reservations!), you
resorted to the same tactic - me the gullible falling in some trap you set
for me. Is this the same kind?
>As though there was an attendance log, and you have verified it. :-)
My source is Berlin (page 160): "His mode of living consisted of daily
visits to the British Museum reading-room, where he normally remained from
nine in the morning until it closed at seven; this was followed by long
hours of work at night,..."
What's yours?
>I don't know, how you can be certain Karl did not visit British
>Museum before 1849. If I could visit The British Museum three
>times during my short stay , why can't Karl? A big time reader?
>KHR, It is possible you know.
>
Lyla gAru, anything is possible - in one's imagination - but that's not of
interest here. Today, everyone has access to the Reading Room, but in the
past, apparently it was limited to only serious researchers. From the
important dates in the museum's history, Marx got his first ticket to
research in the Reading Room in 1850, last renewed in 1877.
>Any way, so that i finish this post and i can go read :-) 'the
>romantic manifesto' by Ayan Rand:
Fine with me. But next time when you preach accountability, remember this is
what you said:
"That is why It must have took him so long to write 58 piddling pages of
the communist manifesto!"
And you have not given an iota of evidence! But you talked about Marx's
finances, Engels's intelligence, Agatha Christie, the Bible, the Koran and
so on. That's enough entertainment for my feeble mind.
Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao
viplavreddy
>
> You are right Kameswara rao garu, it is Siva in the guise of Kirata
who
> says this word. Thanks for the correction, but the question Lyla
Now we can, I hope, rule out that it is a 'caste based' niMda.
Can someone clarify if raMDa also means 'vidhava'? I wonder if
duryOdhan/other kauravas also used that word anywhere in any name
calling episodes wrt to pANDavas/Arjuna?
kiraatuDu/Shiva (sriinaathuDu) would not use such a word without a
reasonable basis, would he?
-viplav-
Sreenivas Paruchuri
> kiraatuDu/Shiva (sriinaathuDu) would not use such a word without a
> reasonable basis, would he?
Now, that reminds me the thread on pOtana's poem:
అన్నము లేదు కొన్ని మధురాంబువు లున్నవి త్రావుమన్న రా-
వన్న! శరీర ధారులకు నాపద వచ్చిన వారి యాపదల్
గ్రన్న మంచి వారికి సుఖంబులు సేయుటకంటె నొండు మే-
లున్నదె నాకు దిక్కు పురుషొత్తముడొక్కడె సుమ్ము పుల్కసా.
on TELUSA list way back in January 1998.
Regards,
Sreenivas
viplavreddy
wrote:
>
> Vaddera is officially a backward community. I don't know the exact
group
> status but from my village experience they were treated as the
lowest and in
> fact were the poorest amongst the BCs.
I messed up the response I typed previously that was atleast four
pages long, while editing -- so much needed to be edited out (it was
not four pages, but close). I will have to provide a short answer
at this time.
1. 'Official' classification into BC/SC or ST does not denote a 'low
caste' status. It has purpose of welfare (of the group/state and is
political most often).
2. Being poor (in your village) does not mean they or it is a 'low
caste' just as I could not say that they were a high caste simply
because they were rich in my village.
3. Caste paradigm has changed over the decades. People belonging to
other castes can not denote one or a few as belonging to Low Caste
status. That may be a notion of the past centuries.
>Please explain why I
> am wrong.
On that 3 బసిస్, వడ్డెర ఇస్ నొత్ అ లౌ చస్తె. వడ్డెర చొమ్మునిత్య్ ఈ
క్నౌ హస్ నొత్ చొన్సిదెరెద్ థెంసెల్వెస్ అ లౌ చస్తె, ఇఫ్ అ స్తుదెంత్ ఒఫ్
ఫిలొసొఫ్య్ చౌల్ద్ నొత్ ఇమగినె ఇత్, థత్ ఇస్ హిస్ ఇస్సుఎ. ఝుస్త్ బెచౌసె హె
ఒర్ సొమెఒనె థౌఘ్త్ ఇత్ ఇస్ అ లౌ చస్తె దోస్ నొత్ మీన్ ఇత్ బెచొమెస్ ఒనె.
ఆన్ ఎక్షంప్లె (అనెచ్దొతల్): ఈ ఇంతెరచ్తెద్ చ్లొసెల్య్ విథ్ అ మాల చొమ్మునిత్య్
అంద్ అ వడ్డెర చొమ్మునిత్య్ అస్ అ చిల్ద్/అదొలెస్చెంత్ -- వె సంగ్ తత్వాలు
సిత్తింగ్ ఒన్ థె సమె చొత్ nulaka maMcaM అంద్ వె అస్ చిల్ద్రెన్ నెవెర్
చొన్సిదెరెద్ ఐథెర్ అస్ ఉంతౌచబ్లె. ఈ గొ తొ అ వడ్డెర పెర్సొన్స్ హొమె
అంద్ వస్ గ్లద్ల్య్ ప్రొవిదెద్ వతెర్ ఒర్ తీ ఒర్ అన్య్థింగ్ ఎల్సె -- అంద్ థెయ్
దిద్ నొత్ చొన్సిదెర్ థెంసెల్వెస్ అస్ సొమె లౌ చస్తె; వ్హెరె అస్ ఈ చన్ నొత్
సయ్ థె సమె విథ్ ఒథెర్ చొమ్మునితిఎస్ ఈ ఇంతెరచ్తెద్ విథ్.
'ఠె లౌధ్ొమెస్ ఫ్రొం నొత్ థె వయ్ ఒథెర్ పెఒప్లె త్రీత్ యౌ బుత్ హౌ ఒనె
త్రీత్స్ ఒనెసెల్ఫ్.
ఆనొథెర్ తంగెంతీల్ స్తొర్య్ -- ఉఈన్ ఏలిజబెథ్ వస్ స్చెదులెద్ తొ విసిత్ అ
చొమ్మొనెర్ధస్్ొమె ఇన్ పూరెర్స్ సెచ్తిఒన్స్ ఒఫ్ ఛిచగొ (ఒనె ఒఫ్ థొసె ఫైలెద్
హూడ్ ప్రొజెచ్త్స్) అంద్ షె వస్ గొఇంగ్ తొ విసిత్ హవె సొమె స్నచ్క్ ఒర్ ఒథెర్
సొమెథింగ్ అత్ థిస్ ఒథెర్ వొమన్స్ హొమె, మొస్త్ల్య్ అ స్చెదులెద్ ఫొతొ-ఒప్. ఆ
ఫెవ్ ఒఫ్ థె ఒర్గనిజెర్స్ వ్హొ ప్రెచెదెద్ తొ చొమె ఇన్ అంద్ తకె ఒవెర్ థె పూర్
వొమణ్స్ హొమె తొ మకె ఇత్ మొరె సుఇతబ్లె ఫొర్ థె ఉఈణ్స్ విసిత్ అంద్ తొ
ప్రొవిదె ఫూద్ ఇతెంస్ తొ మకె ఇత్ రీద్య్ వెరె స్తెర్న్ల్య్ తొల్ద్ బ్య్ థె వొమన్
వ్హొ స్తూద్ ఉప్తొ థొసె ఒర్గనిజెర్స్ బ్య్ సయింగ్, "ఇఫ్ షె ఇస్ థె ఉఈన్ ఒఫ్
ఏంగ్లంద్, ఈ అం థె ఉఈన్ ఒఫ్ మ్య్ హొమె, ఇఫ్ షె లికెస్ ఇత్ షె విల్ల్ స్తయ్
బుత్ ఈ దొణ్త్ వంత్ యౌ తొ చంగె అ థింగ్ హెరె ఫొర్ హెర్"*
*ఠె స్తొర్య్ మిఘ్త్ బె స్లిఘ్త్ల్య్ దిఫ్ఫెరెంత్ ఫ్రొం వ్హత్ ఈ హీర్ద్ అ లొంగ్ తిమె
అగొ.
ణౌ, వ్హొ ఇస్ అ లౌ చస్తె!? అంద్ వ్హొ దెసిదెస్ ఫొర్ వ్హొం? మయ్ నొత్ బె థె
గ్రీత్ ఉఎస్తిఒన్ ళెనిన్ అస్కెద్ బుత్ చెర్తైన్ల్య్ చొమెస్ ఉప్ వ్ర్త్ తొ దిస్చుస్సిఒన్
ఒన్ చస్తె.
-విప్లవ్-
J. K. Mohana Rao
--- Kameswara Rao <kame...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I think a small confusion has given raise to all this discussion.
> Let me try to clarify it.
> It is not arjuna who utters the word "raMDAsuta" in this scene in
> హర విలాసం. It is Siva in the disguise of kirAta who utters this
> word. From the context it is more or less clear that it was ment
> arjuna and not the sUkaraM.
Agreed!
> I am giving below a few exerpts from హరవిలాసం for your reference.
>
> అర్జునూణ్ణి మాయా కిరాతుడు "కపట ధార్మిక", "అత్యంత కలుషాత్మ" అని
> కూడా తిడతాడు. ఆ సందర్భంలో కపటాగ్రహాన్ని ప్రదర్శించడమూ,
> అర్జునుణ్ణి యుద్ధానికి పురికొల్పడమే ముఖ్యోద్దేశం కాబట్టి, అర్జునుణ్ణి
> ఉద్దేశించే "రండా సుత" అని అనడంలో అసంగతం ఏమీ లేదు.
> అంతేకాక నా కెలాంటి ఔచిత్య భంగమూ కనిపించటం లేదు. ఆ పదాన్ని
> పల్కిన వాడు కిరాతుడు కాబట్టి. ఆ సందర్భంలో, అర్జునుడి చేత
> శ్రీనాధుడు పలికించిన మాటలు ఎంతో ఔచిత్యంతో కూడుకున్నవి.
>
I beg to differ. The situation is worse.
1) Siva is not alone.
2) Siva is accompanied by Parvati and his retinue.
3) Siva has taken a kirAta vEsha. He is a God with capital G.
He knows that he is a God too (unlike Rama in Ramayana).
4) As a God, He IS aware of the birth history of arjuna and his brothers
including karNa. He is aware of who the mother is, viz. kuMti.
Does all this mean that God Siva approves that kuMti is a raMDa?
After all, in those days, getting a child for extending the
progeny is a sanctioned practice. In a similar vein, polyandry
too. Siva, being a God, must know many ways to indulge arjuna
in warfare, not hitting below the belt.
In my opinion, the use of raMDAsuta is NOT auchityamu, that too
in the presence of lOkamAta pArvati.
I beg the readers to read the whole aaSvAsamu for some excellent
poems, in particular, the way in which arjuna does pUja to Siva
at all times of the day, from early in the morning to midnight.
The sound of waterfalls in kapikEtu DiMrakIla prapAta patayALu ...
is so enchanting.
Regards! - mOhana
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lylayer
>
> You are right Kameswara rao garu, it is Siva in the guise of Kirata
who > says this word. Thanks for the correction, but the question Lyla
asks,
> if I understand her right, is not answered by clarifying this point.
> The issue however is not about who spoke these words, but whether
the
> compound raMDAsuta could be applied to the
> sUkara. vnr
అదే నా అసలు ప్రశ్న మొదట్లో.:)
భలే సరదాగా ఉంది నారాయణ రావ్! చిన్న డిటెక్టివ్ స్టోరీ చదివినట్టుమ్ది.
ఈ సంశయ నివారణ సందర్భంలో ఇంకొన్ని ప్రశ్నలు, కధలు,
విషయాలు ...
ఆసాంతం నాకెంతో ఆనందం కలిగింది. అందరికీ ధన్యవాదాలు.
లైలా.
V.Narayana Rao
dAsIputra, meaning 'bastard.' SrinathuDu is following a well
established tradition.
vnr
viplavreddy wrote:
>
> Can someone clarify if raMDa also means 'vidhava'? I wonder if
> duryOdhan/other kauravas also used that word anywhere in any name
> calling episodes wrt to pANDavas/Arjuna?
Kameswara Rao
Yes, as Sri VNR said, gramatically it is not incorrect to refer
sUkaraM as "raMDA suta". However as he pointed out, that usage is not
common at all. I thought the question itself had come due to its
appropriateness of using it to refer Siva (albiet disguised). Since
that was not the case, I thought the question was answered. From the
context there are very good reasons (which I quoted in my last
message) to believe that it was referring to arjuna. There are no
reasons to think that suddenly Siva was calling the dead sUkara with
names.
So, in my opinion, there should be no doubt in concluding that it was
arjuna who was called "raMDA suta".
Now, coming to the appropriateness or ఔచిత్యం.
I think if we try to judge it based on our current day values, it
might certainly look inappropriate. But I don't percieve so because:
1. It was uttered by a kirAta. Although it was actually Siva
disguised as kirAta, he can (and has to) speak like a kirAta. Such
language was not uncommon (and not considered as "anaucityaM") in the
classical works of those days for such characters.
2. There could be many ways to indulge arjuna in war. But calling
names is one of them and is a very natural one. People use words
like "raMDA suta" to just abuse/insult someone, not necessarily to
comment on their parents character.
Here let me also answer Sri Viplav's question. SabdaratnAkaraM gives
the exact(and only) meaning "vidhava" for "raMDa". However it doesn't
give any references of its usage. Need to check on sUryarAyAMdhra
nighaMTuvu. But even in that case "raMDA suta" most probably means
son born to a vidhava, which is not the case of Arjuna. But this
could be a possible argument.
3. As Sri VNR pointed out, there are many examples in Sanskrit poetry
and in telugu poetry also which use such words. The exception may be
nannayya (I am not sure though). Mentioning of "kanyASulkaM" might
not be out of context here. Many words used in that play are
currently percieved as bad words and are not used in the families of
uttaraMdhra brahmins that he picturized in that play. But at his time
they were in common use. So the values change time to time.
regards,
Kameswara Rao.
viplavreddy
wrote:
>
> Here let me also answer Sri Viplav's question. SabdaratnAkaraM
gives
> the exact(and only) meaning "vidhava" for "raMDa". However it
doesn't
> give any references of its usage. Need to check on sUryarAyAMdhra
> nighaMTuvu. But even in that case "raMDA suta" most probably means
> son born to a vidhava, which is not the case of Arjuna. But this
> could be a possible argument.
Since raMDa also can mean vidhava: --
{it is possible as vnr said, raMDa means whore in Sanskrit but it
may also mean both vidhava first and whore second in Telugu (after
going thru a word transformation sorts...)}
Can 'suta' just have one meaning to imply 'born to a vidhava'
literally in sanskrit -- could it also not mean: son of a vidhava in
telugu (or one whose father has died)?
ippaTi muM** koDuka may have its beginnings from Sreenatha's time.
if it is possible, it is probable.
Anyway, I was interested in defending the appropriateness of the
word only to the extent that I show the usage in a different light;
to refute the usage as having a 'caste basis' -- just as I tried
with the case where the good philosophers name has been linked to a
low caste.
In either case, if there are better explanations possible, they are
probable.
> So the values change time to time.
no dispute there.
regards, viplav
lylayer
wrote:
There are no
> reasons to think that suddenly Siva was calling the dead sUkara with
> names.
> So, in my opinion, there should be no doubt in concluding that it
was
> arjuna who was called "raMDA suta".
>
The plot thickens. :-)
(I am not contradicting your opinion.)
In the story told in bharatamu -the pig which is hit by Arjuna and
Kirata is really not a pig.
Prompted by Siva, ధూకా అను దైత్యుడు took up the disguise of a
pig.
"క.
హరు శరమును నరుశరమును, సరి నిరుపక్కియలు దాకి జవ మరి
శరసంభరమున దిరిగె వరాహము, శరనిధి మధనమున దిరుగు శైలమ
పోలెన్."
"వ. ఇట్లిద్దరి చేత శర విద్ధుండై మూకదైత్యుండు సూకర రూపంబు
విడిచి నిజ రూపంబు తోడ నదృశ్యుండయ్యె..."
Don't know whether the pig is real one, whether it is male or female
and whether it stayed dead on the ground in Haravilasamu story.
regards
lyla.
viplavreddy
>
> > Now we can, I hope, rule out that it is a 'caste based'
niMda.
> ....
>
> on TELUSA list way back in January 1998.
>
When Sree Paruchuri speaks the hair on my neck goes up, don't know
why -- so I had to go check it for myself, about what was said.
here is the link to veluri's message and his preference for pulkasaa.
http://chaitanya.bhaavana.net/telusa/jan-apr98/0071.html
I am not sure if pOtana's usage fits the bill wrt to a niMda.
It could simply be the usage/the way accepted at the time. Ton of
books written in English -- from uncle tom's cabin etc., have
objectionable language wrt to current standards/values -- as long as
the usage is not abused based on the caste alone -- it adds flavor
of the time.
Our PC (political correctness) shouldn't hinder our judgment with
respective usage of the past (or present). There are many uses
present in current day society that are not used in writing because
of PC, that is a shame, especially if it fits the context & if adds
the texture of the time. Just because something is written (that
truly captures the mood of the day) it can not be assumed as the
writer's ignorance/implied consent for using such. It would be
great to get an explanation out of a writer, if living, he does not
owe it to anyone though. A good writing will contextualize it
enough to understand.
regards, viplav
Hanuma Kodavalla
> ... if a student of philosophy could not imagine it, that is his issue.
Caste is more a sociological than a philosophical topic.
> 'The low' comes from not the way other people treat you but how
> one treats oneself.
There have always been many castes that thought highly of themselves. But
the social status and the treatment meted out to them is independent of
that. The terms - lower and upper - are used in that social context.
I believe this is a standard practice in social studies. See M. N.
Srinivas's "Remembered Village" and "Caste in Modern India and Other
Essays." I see this usage in contemporary writings, including literary, as
well.
Can you please cite some works that use your definition?
> Who is a low caste!? and Who desides for Whom? may not be the
> great question Lenin asked ...
I presume this is in reference to Lenin's "What Is To be done?" but I don't
see the relevance. Anyway, in such matters K. Balagopal knows better than
V.I. Lenin.
Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao
viplavreddy
>
it may be.
I liked a philosophy lecture over the post graduate sociology
coursework I took for the simple reason that - that single lecture
was enough to claim both the titles of being a sociologist & an
economist. To become a Philosopher I am told I merely needed to
walk into the lecture.
> > 'The low' comes from not the way other people treat you but how
> > one treats oneself.
>
> There have always been many castes that thought highly of
themselves. But
> the social status and the treatment meted out to them is
independent of
> that. The terms - lower and upper - are used in that social
context.
>
> I believe this is a standard practice in social studies. See M. N.
> Srinivas's "Remembered Village" and "Caste in Modern India and
I referred to a changed parlance. My readings from Dalit Networks
with specific agendas (there are many to list), associations and
active organizations like International Dalit Solidarity Network -
that seeks to promote 'ambedkar principles' among many other things
(especially their annual reports from different countries) &
TamilNation etc., made me think of an alternative & more
current definition for the status/level.
Since you seem to like examples, take a look at Pallars caste in TN
as cited by A. Ramaiah: "The Pallar caste is considered to be the
highest caste among the lower or the Scheduled Castes and lower
caste among the higher castes or the caste Hindus in Tamil Nadu." I
am sure you can find many such castes on any specific imagined
ladder.
he further says, "though the Brahmins and a few upper level middle
castes such as the Vellalars and Chettiyars treat the Pallars as
untouchables, the latter do not consider them as their opponents or
direct enemies. For them the real opponents are a few middle level
dominant castes such as the Ahamudayar, Maravar and Kallar who
indulge in open violence against them."
Pallars defined themselves about where they stand -- over a period
of time.
There are a ton of references from those sources above I could list
but it would be futile if you keep looking for a specific sentence
that offers a single definition of caste in relative terms unless
you are willing to see the context in full.
I cited Amartya Sen once already somewhere else thinking about this
post, hope it does not bore you; but he assails the way we (others)
categorize people and groups -- using singularities -- where as the
truth is we are a plurality when it comes to identity -- if a
specific caste, be it Pallars or Vadderas, is seen/classified as a
low caste by outsiders to that particular group, it becomes a source
for further alienation of that group; besides, they do not see
themselves as a low caste when compared to a different caste they
consider to be lower than where they stand anyway defeating the
singular definition of 'low caste'.
Please don't confuse Discrimination with a misunderstood, medieval
concept of caste hierarchy. Discrimination no doubt is a subject
for sociology students. "low or high" in caste can not be defined
by the relative discrimination faced by one over the other -- in
todays context, it is defined by the way how each tribe/tribesmen
treat themselves, in current day. No one tribe can say or define
the other, as it is today. In theory, they all may face the same
level of discrimination yet they all could perceive themselves to be
different as in current day scheduled castes.
Studies exploring this 'colonial construction' of social
order/scheduled castes in Sikh religion and later on Government of
India adapting a specific order (now all the discussion related to
the creamy layer within each tribe) further point to this mistake
of 'low or high' made -- for some what of a convenience, largely due
to ignorance & lack of foresight.
BTW did you find anything new about Vaddera Chandidas's adaption of
Vaddera as his surname other than the assuption that he did it
because he considred it a low caste?
regards, viplav
PS. Caste is an explosive term in many peoples minds, I would not
discuss it on any other forum -- I wish to thank ra.ba. forum to let
this much come through. In current day context I think it is
becoming more prevalent, intense and personal. I liked the way
RamaRao put it -- it has become a secret handshake. I will go one
step further than him and revise to to say, it has even grown from
secret/covert to a more overt pattern. For that reason, each caste
is becoming more assertive. I am not sure how it ends but I revised
my views to think now that it could be for the better.
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C. Srinivas
> Please don't confuse Discrimination with a misunderstood, medieval
> concept of caste hierarchy. Discrimination no doubt is a subject
> for sociology students. "low or high" in caste can not be defined
> by the relative discrimination faced by one over the other -- in
> todays context, it is defined by the way how each tribe/tribesmen
> treat themselves, in current day. No one tribe can say or define
> the other, as it is today. In theory, they all may face the same
> level of discrimination yet they all could perceive themselves to be
> different as in current day scheduled castes.
>
>...
>
> regards, viplav
Wow! Interesting hypothesis!!!
- Caste is nothing but an issue of self-worth!
The day a Shastri or Reddy garu takes up manual scavenging - rather
than "reserving" it for the methar community - I am willing to concede.
If I understand it right, according to this logic independent of the
historical facts, struggles and socio-economic context, if only
everyone in the dalit bahujan community can just claim "equal status"
with the upper castes, the upper castes would lovingly accept it.
When discrimination is predominantly based on caste identity, it is
ridiculous to study discrimination outside of caste.
To better appreciate the issues of "lower/higher" and hierarchy within
each broader group something like scheduled castes - please read more
about M N Srinivas's "Sanskritization" concept. IMO, his analysis
better correlates with ground data, more so than any other pure mental
abstraction.
Srinivas
Satyanarayana Pamarty
> The day a Shastri or Reddy garu takes up manual scavenging - rather
> than "reserving" it for the methar community - I am willing to
> concede.
Dear Srinivas gaaru:
Hmm. So, do we want communities to switch the jobs of manual
scavenging? or as decent individuals, do we want to try eradicating
manual scavenging itself?
Why should we always think the wrong thing to correct anything? I think
we should pressurize our respective governments to eradicate manual
scavenging instead.
In a lighter vein, the real upper castes of today's India are the ones
I talk about below. Consider this:
-----------------
Discrimination
These guys wear different attire. Wear a thread like thing around their
neck. Speak unspeakable languages and claim miracles through their
work. Let's look at who they are.
The attire of a person belonging to this caste is definitely not the
common Indian's. He wears clean expensive clothes, and touts expensive
gadgets. He belongs to the clan of IT guys. They have flashy cars, live
a better life than an average Indian. They forbid any but their own
kind to enter their places of work. To ensure this, they identify one
another by a thread around their neck called the Lan Yard. At the end
of the lan yard is an ID card that clearly spells out that the wearer
of the thread belongs.
To doubly ensure that there is no mistaken identity or misappropriation
of the ID device, these clan members go to great lengths to restrict
the entry of others into their workplaces and sometimes by using
biometric means. Anyone not belonging to this clan has no way of
entering their temples of work.
They are a closely knit group of individuals thinking highly of
themselves and who won't mix with the masses and keep themselves
connected by a variety of devices like flashy cell phones, laptops and
the like. They rarely marry outside of their own IT community and
preferably only one who shares their table at work.
Through this continuous inbreeding, they may be attempting to keep
their clan's secrets close to their own community and thus restricting
the entry of outsiders. Their working patterns baffle most others and
they sometimes peer long into their monitors in a meditative fashion to
achieve results.
They have an erstwhile gotram like system of identification. While some
belong to gOtrams like Infosys gotram, wipro gotram, TCS gotram etc.,
some others have highly acclaimed gOtraMs like Microsoft gOtram, Sun
gOtraM, Oracle gOtraM etc.
Their pravara (resume) reads the list of their gOtraMs. Usually, it
speaks of at least four gOtrAs dating backwards.
They usually cluster in their agrahAraMs (called IT parks), the entry
into which is not available to outsiders.
They also study IT sUtrAs for a few years before swearing by them
during daily work. The various sUtrAs are like C sUtra@h, jAvA sUtra@h,
VB sUtra@h etc.
When encountered by non-IT individuals, they usually shift their
language to something relating to one of these sUtrAs to keep nosey non-
outsiders at bay.
They too have a hierarchy. There are these yAyavAra IT brahmachArIs who
go around the world begging for work, then the gRhastha IT guru who
tries settling down in one place etc. The AchArya IT gurudEvAs go
around consulting and claiming to ward of the ills of other non-IT
individuals. They create problems before going about solving them. They
write viruses and then anti-viruses. They believe in the aphorism
that "Invention is the mother of necessity". In return, they earn huge
chunks of money that they use to buying their mAnyaMs.
The NRI IT guy is the highest caste in India today. Against a person of
this caste, there is no way a non-IT, non-NRI guy can survive. The NRI
IT guy is the one who seems to need the land that he won't use, who
will buy at exhorbitant prices things he won't need any time in his
life and hikes the real estate prices beyond the reach of a non-NRI non-
IT person thus denying the poor Indian his citizenship. The poor
oppressed nNRI-nIT person despite all his struggles cannot hope to find
a small piece of land for his use in his lifetime. We need a neo-
bhoodaan movement to correct the evils of this practice.
Now, what did you say you are? Not one of "those" oppressive and unjust
guys I hope! :))
With best wishes
Satya
viplavreddy
medieval
> > concept of caste hierarchy. Discrimination no doubt is a
subject
>
> Wow! Interesting hypothesis!!!
> - Caste is nothing but an issue of self-worth!
Dear Srinivas: I am glad you think it is interesting but not
outlandish yet. My view is: why recite an existing hypotheses on a
forum like this, if they can be readily found in articles or on the
web, therefore I look for new outcomes all the time -- knowing full
well that I might succeed only on occassion.
I think I can say this without any expressed or implied
glorification attributed -- if I were to list a hundred friends from
my childhood, only a five or six would be reddys and the remaining
come from all other tribes. I ate in the same pallem and roomed
with multiple communities, including a African friend of mine from
Kenya at one point for six months in India. I value those
experiences more than a book or a theory.
I offered a glimpse from that new dimension -- especially a future
that is here already. Krishna Madiga or Krupakar Madiga are not
exception today, they are the norm. Self assured leadership from
communities of Gowds is one of the best examples out there. Let us
see who dares to call any of those people as belonging to a low
caste. If any one does that, I would be the first to call those the
first order bigots.
In the dust bowl of America, post depression era, many whites sought
to defend their creed/color because they thought that was the only
thing they had to defend. This is not a mere impression or learning
from a reading, that is what i am directly told on more than one
occassion by people of repute in this region -- visionaries in their
time, those who marched with M L King. The few who do not come out
of accepting everyone equal will one day have no choice. Blacks in
America have moved past from the post where they longed for
acceptance by Whites. If they still wait for such an acceptance,
they realized they inturn deny themselves an equality. It applies
to women, homosexuals and all the other categories.
That is an example worth emulating for all sections of a modern
society.
> The day a Shastri or Reddy garu takes up manual scavenging - rather
> than "reserving" it for the methar community - I am willing to
concede.
I am surprised at this statement. Scavenging is a human rights
issue. If anyone, Shastri, Reddy or Methar were to do this, that is
reprehensible. Anecdotally speaking, an ultra-rich person from
Vizag, a student buddy of mine, once became a king of Janitors at
our University, by mastering in clean rest rooms -- I was told he
registered not a single complaint from any of the departments he
served on campus in two years he was there. He belonged to one of
those communities other than methar. Would he face discrimination
ever? you bet.
Discrimination has no face. If it does not see for what you are --
it hits you in the gut and stays with you. Many Reddys I know
blamed other communities in Osmania University for not getting their
fair shake in PG Medical seats in the 60s and 70s. Discrimation
kept many other upper caste people away from research wings in
reputed universities such as Andhra University. Just because such a
discrimination hit them in places they did/did not expect, eitherway
they did not consider their caste to be a low caste. It should be
the same with any caste, be it methar/bhangi or any other scheduled
caste.
> If I understand it right, according to this logic independent of
the
> historical facts, struggles and socio-economic context, if only
> everyone in the dalit bahujan community can just claim "equal
status"
> with the upper castes, the upper castes would lovingly accept it.
Again, those who look for acceptance will keep looking for it until
cows come home. No one caste need to lovingly or hatingly accept
anything. Such an expectation amounts to nothing but submittal and
surrender. It is like playing to the tune already set. Or, more
like wanting to become 'those others' so that they can enjoy what
ever perks they are enjoying. I also say those who say or show
acceptance may not be doing any favors either. No one need to show
compassion or acceptance as if someone else is low or below them.
That is not the current day standard, imho.
Decouple caste identity & respect each the same way so it may pave a
path to deal with discrimination. If Catholics and Jews of America
did not practice that doctrine they would still be the targets of
discrimination in the same proportion as before. They have overcome
such a pattern by asserting themselves as equals first, and later
came the rights under equal protection.
-viplav-
C. Srinivas
<pamarty@...> wrote:
>
> --- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, "C. Srinivas" <csrinivas@> wrote:
>
> > The day a Shastri or Reddy garu takes up manual scavenging - rather
> > than "reserving" it for the methar community - I am willing to
> > concede.
>
> Dear Srinivas gaaru:
>
> Hmm. So, do we want communities to switch the jobs of manual
> scavenging? or as decent individuals, do we want to try eradicating
> manual scavenging itself?
I would argue that one of the main reasons not much effort has gone
into the eradication of manual scavenging is that it was never an
issue that bothered the higher castes - they never had to do that.
My point was that, it is no accident that (even as a last resort) no
upper caste ever takes up this job.
The very processes of setting the expectation that it is a "natural
choice" only for certain castes, (and forbidden for others) to take up
degrading and menial jobs has been a mechanism to define a "lower
status" in the caste hierarchy.
As Gail Omvedt argued several years back, for several reasons,
think the more a caste is discriminated, the more slower the
modernization arrives to the professions associated with it.
But again, there is no guarantee that, even if and when
it happens modernization will not displace them into
some other menial position.
>
> In a lighter vein, the real upper castes of today's India are the ones
> I talk about below. Consider this:
>
> -----------------
>
> Discrimination
> ...
Nice one :-).
But seriously, don't you think here too, most of them (us?) are from
the same-old upper castes - it just that now in a more prosperous
setting..
Regards,
Srinivas
C. Srinivas
> the
> > historical facts, struggles and socio-economic context, if only
> > everyone in the dalit bahujan community can just claim "equal
> status"
> > with the upper castes, the upper castes would lovingly accept it.
>
> Again, those who look for acceptance will keep looking for it until
> cows come home. No one caste need to lovingly or hatingly accept
> anything. Such an expectation amounts to nothing but submittal and
> surrender. It is like playing to the tune already set. Or, more
> like wanting to become 'those others' so that they can enjoy what
> ever perks they are enjoying. I also say those who say or show
> acceptance may not be doing any favors either. No one need to show
> compassion or acceptance as if someone else is low or below them.
> That is not the current day standard, imho.
>
Please go back to what I was replying to.
I was arguing against your hypothesis that the "high/low" caste
status is purely a matter of "self-definition".
I am saying that when the discrimination is based on caste identity,
you cannot delink the fight against discrimination from caste.
A genuine fight against caste discrimination always has "equal status"
as one of uncompromising demands. And there cannot be any struggle for
"equal status" without confronting the discrimination issue.
This has been true of any of the dalit struggles, anti-apartheid
movement or the civil rights movement in this country.
No where I have argued for "looking for acceptance" on equal-status.
It my framework, it is an unconditional demand.
That is why I said it has to be understood in the context of
historical facts and struggle to change the socio-economic conditions.
Please read Ambedkar's arguments with Gandhi on caste annihilation.
And also, if you think the discrimination experienced by upper caste
folks can be equated to that what's experienced by dalits - think our
understanding on the issue is very, very different.
I have addressed the linkage between manual scavenging and caste
oppression in an earlier post.
Srinivas.
Murthy Devarakonda
I am not too knowledgeable - but finally yielded.
> did not practice that doctrine they would still be the targets of
> discrimination in the same proportion as before. They have overcome
> such a pattern by asserting themselves as equals first, and later
> came the rights under equal protection.
Here are some excerpts (in "double quotes") from an article "politics of
Identity" by Amartya Sen (India Today, 3-Jul-2006)
----
"... we have to pay some attention to a diagnosis of Rabindranath
Tagore. He argued that the 'idea of India' itself militates against the
intense consciousness of the separateness of ones own people from
others"
and later, Sen writes
"...Part of the key to the puzzle lies in the pliability of the idea of
identity itself. We all have many different affiliations and
associations, and through that a great many distinct identities. Any
person's acknowledgement of one identity does not rule out the
simultaneous recognition of the same person's other identities. Identity
politics flourishes by playing up some particular identity over all
others, attempting to drown the loyalties generated by rival identities.
If all of us have many different identities, the whether to attach
greater importance to one identity over another should ultimately
be for us to decide"
and somewhere down the article, he asks
"... But what is the role of reason here ? Does unbiased political
reasoning suggest that these narrower identities should be overcome and
overwhelmed whenever possible ?"
and remarks
"... The answer can hardly be an unqualified yes. If social equity
is an important goal, we must take serious note of the fact that
equity can sometimes benefit from the solidarity of disadvantaged
groups. The underdogs of Indian society have good reason to act together
to resist the continuation of accentuation of their adversities"
----
Perhaps, there is nothing new in what Mr Sen is telling. These multiple
identities have already been mentioned on this thread (IT-folks, NRIs,
doctors, etc). In the present situation, are discrimination or
the assertions against it, also a manifestation of the "playing-up
one-identity-over-another" syndrome ? If so, then they both
belong to one and the same class ?
I hope to learn more.
శలవు
మూర్తి
Satyanarayana Pamarty
wrote:
> My point was that, it is no accident that (even as a last resort) no
> upper caste ever takes up this job.
Dear Srinivas gAru:
I see what you are saying, but things have been changing. Look at
this:
About 6 or so years ago, "CES Onyx", a private multi-national waste
management company took over the garbage disposal and waste
management of Chennai Corporation. Being a multi-national, it brought
with it a lot of glamour into waste management.
You can read more about it here:
http://www.chennaibest.com/discoverchennai/citylifestyle/feature10.asp
It brought brand new state-of-the-art garbage disposal trucks, three
wheelers, supervision techniques etc. The waste disposal technicians
wear chic uniforms just like in the west (?). Why am I saying all
this? When they advertised calling for people to join their force,
young men from all sections of society applied and joined. Why?
The remuneration was good; good uniforms, work hours, shoes, and
perks were offered; there was dignity in doing this job. I have no
doubt at all that some of these guys were from the so called "Upper
castes".
These days they are not looked down at all. In fact, these guys
worked like mad to make Chennai clean in the early days and earned a
lot of respect for themselves. Even the erstwhile corporation
sanitary workers have taken a cue or two from them and have bettered
their image as well. There has been a reduction in the quality of
their work over the years, but by and large, they have my deep
respect.
If people pursue a career, it's got a lot to do with the motivation
behind it and the glamour around it. If people knew that there were
bags of gold at the bottom of each sewage manhole, you would find
people queuing up to jump into the manholes irrespective of their
identities of any nature.
> The very processes of setting the expectation that it is a "natural
> choice" only for certain castes, (and forbidden for others) to take
> up degrading and menial jobs has been a mechanism to define a "lower
> status" in the caste hierarchy.
Thankfully, this is fast becoming a thing of the past. I know at
least a few "upper" caste guys working as lorry cleaners in AP. Not
exactly manual scavenging, but not too far from it either.
> But again, there is no guarantee that, even if and when
> it happens modernization will not displace them into
> some other menial position.
Is there any guarantee for anything at all in this world? :-)
> Nice one :-).
Thank you.
> But seriously, don't you think here too, most of them (us?) are from
> the same-old upper castes - it just that now in a more prosperous
> setting..
Sure. You could well be right, but this one is with one major
difference. Here, there is flexibility for anyone to graduate from
one social sphere to another. How can this graduation from one to
another take place in the present context? Through reservations? No
says Satya. To hear more about his arguement, at least one person
should express interest on RB.
Thanks and best wishes
J. K. Mohana Rao
--- "C. Srinivas" <csri...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I would argue that one of the main reasons not much effort has gone
> into the eradication of manual scavenging is that it was never an
> issue that bothered the higher castes - they never had to do that.
>
I read in the newspapers recently that either in UP
or Bihar, the "upper" caste people applied for some
of the meanial jobs and resentment was shown towards
them for encroaching into the "traditional" domains
of the "lower" class.
Regards! - mOhana
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Srikanth Bandi
Lyla wrote:
>
>Look at Doctors. They do menial stuff all the time. Disimpact
>rectums. Relieve bladders of urine. When they deliver babies,
>remove rotten organs from people's bodies, in the process they get
>smeared with all kinds of stuff. And that stuff stinks. And this is
>every day life for them. Yet people think a doctor's life is a bed
>of roses and a janitor's life smells like pig sty.
In medieval Europe barbers used to perform functions of surgeons and the
profession didn't have the respectability it has now. Yes, some forms of
manual labour became more respectable with times. In Europe the backing of
aristocrats to what were then deemed to be lowly menial endeavours of people
dirtying their hands in scientific experiments was a factor in science
gaining respectability.
Has any one seen this very entertaining old film “peLLi sandaDi”, (I think
from 50s, not the one from 90s). In a scene, Chalam who plays Jameendar's
son is asked what he worked for making a living. His father indignantly
replies that his son didn't have to stoop to so level as doing some work.
Even parasites had respectability those days! While this changed with men,
it took some time for parents to let their girls out for studies, enter job
markets and more importantly sports, cultural events.
What matters is fame or money along with difficulty of gaining expertise in
their respective craft/professions. With this criteria a doctor's job is not
comparable with that of a scavenger's.
It like saying that just because a chef also cooks, a cook is also a chef.
>
>P.S: There is a very interesting book out there called '
>Londonistan ' by Melanie Phillips for those interested in global
>politics, if you want to get to it before Tony Blair steps down.
I haven't read the book. Saw some of her articles and be warned that she is
a right wing nut holding fundamentalist positions similar to what Osama bin
laden would hold on the other side of the divide.
Regards
Srikanth
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As usual my sidetracking trivia.:-))
Best wishes
Hemantha Kumar
Srikanth Bandi <kant...@hotmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
In medieval Europe barbers used to perform functions of surgeons and the
profession didn't have the respectability it has now. <snip>
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Moderator’s note: It seems this thread is veering in to a discussion about caste reservations. We are certain that the members are aware of the potentially incendiary nature of this topic and its scope that lies beyond the charter of this group. However, we would like to let the thread proceed - with due respect and faith in members’ ability to exercise self-regulation and decorum in their posts and maintain an academic discussion – while monitoring it cautiously. Any animus or adversarial tone in any member’s post could lead to closing the thread, which could also be terminated any time at our (moderators and owner’s) discretion.
==============================================================
> Satyanarayana Pamarty [pam...@hotmail.com] Sat 9/9/2006 10:09 AM
> How can this graduation from one to another take place in the
> present context? Through reservations? No says Satya.
> To hear more about his arguement, at least one person
> should express interest on RB.
Satya gAru,
Making it fair for all people so that they can freely choose their
profession cannot be done by any one measure. Reservations is not *the*
solution; it's only one of a few necessary measures. But thanks to some
anti-reservationists, that gets the most attention! (It may sound like I'm
including you in that camp, but that isn't my intent.)
Since Sen seems to be getting more attention here, see "India: Development
and Participation," by Jean Dr`eze and Amartya Sen. Reservations is
mentioned only briefly in the 500+ page book!
With that, yes, I'm interested in your argument.
Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao
lylayer
wrote:
> Has any one seen this very entertaining old film "peLLi sandaDi",
(I think
> from 50s, not the one from 90s). In a scene, Chalam who plays
Jameendar's
> son is asked what he worked for making a living. His father
indignantly
"
మేడ మీద మేడ కట్టి
కోట్లు కూడబెట్టినట్టి కామందూ
..లలా లలా ల లా..
దిగిరా ముమ్దు."
ఈ సినిమాయేనా, శ్రీకాంత్ ? నాగేశ్వర రావు, స్నేహితులతో కలిసి ఏదో
ఇంటి ముందు నుంచుని ఈ పాట పాడినట్లు లీలగా గుర్తు వస్తోమ్ది. మంచి
పాటలున్నట్లున్నాయి. కధ ఎవరైనా కొమ్చెం చెపితే గుర్తు వచ్చేస్తుంది.
> >Londonistan ' by Melanie Phillips for those interested in global
> >politics, if you want to get to it before Tony Blair steps down.
> I haven't read the book. Saw some of her articles and be warned
that she is
> a right wing nut holding fundamentalist positions similar to what
Osama bin
> laden would hold on the other side of the divide.
>
> Regards
> Srikanth
Too Late! Smitten. Bitten by the Dracula.:-)
Impressed by her oratory skills and went and bought the book. Really
would have liked the whole book read by her to me, in her own
stylish, fluid, cerebral diction but too late for that too. Any way
I don't think there would be a DVD.
I will be careful and read the secular Sen in between and any
extreme left wing writer you would like to suggest to nullify the
effect of Melanie.
Thanks and Regards
lyla.
J. K. Mohana Rao
--- lylayer <lyl...@aol.com> wrote:
> "
> మేడ మీద మేడ కట్టి
> కోట్లు కూడబెట్టినట్టి కామందూ
> ..లలా లలా ల లా..
> దిగిరా ముమ్దు."
>
> ఈ సినిమాయేనా, శ్రీకాంత్ ? నాగేశ్వర రావు, స్నేహితులతో కలిసి ఏదో
> ఇంటి ముందు నుంచుని ఈ పాట పాడినట్లు లీలగా గుర్తు వస్తోమ్ది. మంచి
> పాటలున్నట్లున్నాయి. కధ ఎవరైనా కొమ్చెం చెపితే గుర్తు వచ్చేస్తుంది.
>
ప్రేమించి చూడు? తమిళములో
కాదలిక్క నేరమిల్లై
- మోహన
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Sreenivas Paruchuri
> "Srikanth Bandi" <kantbrac@...> wrote:
>
> > Has any one seen this very entertaining old film "peLLi sandaDi",
> "
> కోట్లు కూడబెట్టినట్టి కామందూ
> ..లలా లలా ల లా..
> దిగిరా ముమ్దు."
>
> ఈ సినిమాయేనా, శ్రీకాంత్ ? నాగేశ్వర రావు, స్నేహితులతో కలిసి ఏదో
> ఇంటి ముందు నుంచుని ఈ పాట పాడినట్లు లీలగా గుర్తు వస్తోమ్ది. మంచి
> పాటలున్నట్లున్నాయి. కధ ఎవరైనా కొమ్చెం చెపితే గుర్తు వచ్చేస్తుంది.
>
You are refering to ప్రేమించి చూడు (Mullapudi took care of the
Telugu script and if I am not mistaken even wrote some songs) from 1967,
a remake of a successful Tamil film from the previous year. And,
Srikanth is refering to the 1959 film, also starring ANR (and Anjali,
Jamuna et al). Its worth watching just for Ghantasala's good
compositions: his duets with R. Balasaraswati (raavE prEmalataa), Leela
(Chamak Chamaku taara ...), Jikki (baiThO baiThO peLLikoDakaa), the
chorus number (jaalee bambayilE maavaa O maavaa!) 'javaLish' number
(samayamideDaayeraa ...), the list goes on ... raavOyi sakkanODaa,
appaTikee ippaTikee eMtO tEDaa ...
Regards,
Sreenivas
V. Chowdary Jampala
> You are refering to ప్రేమించి చూడు (Mullapudi took care of the
> Telugu script and if I am not mistaken even wrote some songs) from 1967,
The song mEDameeda mEDa kaTTi was written by muLLapooDi.
Regards -- V Chowdary Jampala
--
Visit http://www.telugunaadi.com for Telugu Naadi, the Pulse of Telugu America
hanuma_k
> Vaddera as his surname other than the assuption that he did it
> because he considred it a low caste?
>
> regards, viplav
No.
For the record, this is what I said: "I always wondered why Cherukuri
Subrahmanyeswara Rao changed his name to the unusual Vaddera
Chandidas. When he died last year I learnt he took Vaddera from the
poor and low-caste working people."
KHR
J. K. Mohana Rao
--- "V. Chowdary Jampala" <cjam...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 9/12/06, Sreenivas Paruchuri <sre...@gmx.de> wrote:
> > You are refering to ప్రేమించి చూడు (Mullapudi took care of the
> > Telugu script and if I am not mistaken even wrote some songs) from 1967,
>
> The song mEDameeda mEDa kaTTi was written by muLLapooDi.
>
Soon after my MSc, I was working (in my first job) then in
the PSG College of Technology, Coimbatore. We went on a staff
picnic to many dam sites. I think the above sequences were
filmed in Parambikulam-Aliyar Project Guest House. All the
people were moving from room to room and narrating where each
scene was filmed in the movie. This happened in 1963. The
message of Lyla gAru brought back these memories!
Regards! - mOhana
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Satyanarayana Pamarty
> Moderator's note: It seems this thread is veering in to a
discussion about caste reservations. We are certain that the members
are aware of the potentially incendiary nature of this topic and its
scope that lies beyond the charter of this group. However, we would
like to let the thread proceed - with due respect and faith in
members' ability to exercise self-regulation and decorum in their
posts and maintain an academic discussion – while monitoring it
cautiously. Any animus or adversarial tone in any member's post could
lead to closing the thread, which could also be terminated any time
at our (moderators and owner's) discretion.
> ==============================================================
Dear Moderators:
Thanks for your caveat and for allowing the thread to continue. I
will certainly exercise caution and would not dream of hurting
anyone. I will respect your decision if at any time you feel that the
discussion needs to be stopped.
> Making it fair for all people so that they can freely choose their
> profession cannot be done by any one measure. Reservations is not
*the*
> solution;
Dear KHR gaaru:
Thanks for your message. How are you? I hope fine.
We agree on the above point. Today, unlike in the past (mid 1980s
when I got out of school), people "can" freely choose their
profession. Why? There are enough private colleges that have enough
seats going vacant each year for lack of candidates. There were only
a few colleges and fewer seats in the 80s that could have justified
any arguement in this direction. My arguement is not that at all.
Reservations do not stop any section of society from choosing a
profession. Nor do they increase the chance significantly. At least,
not now.
> it's only one of a few necessary measures. But thanks to some
> anti-reservationists, that gets the most attention! (It may sound
> like I'm including you in that camp, but that isn't my intent.)
I am not in that camp, though it might appear that I am — without any
explanation from my end. I am happy to be allowed to explain myself.
> Since Sen seems to be getting more attention here, see "India:
> Development and Participation," by Jean Dr`eze and Amartya Sen.
> Reservations is mentioned only briefly in the 500+ page book!
I haven't read this so far. May be I am going to repeat some of what
he said or may be I will say something stupid. Who knows? You might
have to pass judgement quite freely after hearing my arguement.
> With that, yes, I'm interested in your argument.
Thanks once again.
First things first. We need equality of all people in this country.
There is no equality right now even if we do claim there is. The
disparities are apparent.
How do I say that? In my new job, I had been interviewing at least 50
people a week for the past few months. I am sorry for so many people
that come for the interviews. They mostly come from the villages in
TN. We do not offer any call centre or software jobs in the company I
work for. So, people who can be considered average come for these
interviews.
I am shocked at the quality of people that are there in that lot. I
am truly sorry to say this and I am not exaggerating. Most of these
guys can't think coherently. They are "not with it" to use an
American phrase. I think it's not their fault.
Any aim of our future educational policies should be to bring these
people to be on par with the more urbanized (more educated?) group.
Otherwise, I think we are doomed as a nation. For achieving this, I
don't think "reservations" are a soluton. We need these people to be
good and on par with the rest. What is happening right now is
something that reminds me of the following story I read somewhere.
Though I am quoting it, I am retelling it my own words.
<story>
"There was this butterfly that was struggling to get out of its
cocoon. Some passerby saw the butterfly's struggle. He felt sorry for
the trouble it was undergoing. It was trying to make its way into the
world through a small hole. The guy who was passing by thought that
it would be able to get out of the cocoon if he made the hole larger.
So, in his anxiety to do some good, he made the opening in the cocoon
larger. The butterfly hopped out easily.
When a butterfly struggles out of the orifice, it grows its wings.
Fluid goes to the edges in its wings thus making them grow larger and
stronger. By the end of the struggle, the butterfly's wings are fully
grown. It's ready to fly.
By making the orifice larger, the passerby did not allow the current
butterfly's wings to grow. It hopped out without its wings fully
grown. It can be called a butterfly, but it will never fly. It will
hop all its life."
</story>
Now, how is this relevant here? Our educational policy is skewed.
There is not one system of education in this country. There is CBSE
(Central board of secondary education), and there are the numerous
state boards of education, there are matriculation boards, montessori
stuff and the like. That is, the X standard student of one board is
not equal to the X standard student of another board. The gap is
pretty wide between the CBSE guys and the state board guys itself.
What does this do? This gets the "I standard" son of mine to talk and
think better than most graduate guys I am interviewing. I am not
exaggerating even a little. This is the ground reality. Those guys
need a lift and "reservations" has not and is not going to do the job.
The policy makers dangle the reservations before the masses to
perhaps appease them. The poor guys don't know the harm its doing to
them and rally behind it. This is similar to making the orifice
wider. These policy makers do not focus on anything more fundamental.
This is the quick-fix they offer that only makes things worse.
India today is more financially stronger than before. We should focus
on equal education for our children right from the start. The kid in
the rural area should get the same education from kindergarten that
the urban kid is getting. Education should be made compulsory for all.
If the rural kid has the same opportunities that the urban kid has,
he won't need any reservations. Our country should invest in opening
up quality schools everywhere. The system needs overhauling inside
out. This would see the next generation of people competing on equal
terms. It will take only 20 years at the max to remove the
disparities.
Right now, there is no chance that the rural graduates can be
considered equal to the urban graduates. They are in fact nowhere
near.
Reservations only perpetuate the divide. Those who rally for it do
not even know what's happening. They should desist from asking for
reservations and should start demanding equal education for all from
the primary school level. The different boards should be abolished.
There should be one uniform level of education across the country.
One education for all should be slogan. All kids should have access
to the same facilities, labs, play grounds etc. Unless this happens,
things will never change.
If it doesn't happen, it will only increase the urban-rural divide
and will turn into more hatred for the urbanites. We can't afford
this. Everyone should sit down and think for a while. Understand what
is needed and force the governments to get into action. We should
understand the lack of foresight in offering "reservations" as an
alternative.
It will take 20 to 25 years if we undertake these measures, but equal
education from the basic level will diminish all disparities in one
generation. We won't be at loggerheads again on these issues. At
least our grand children won't be discussing these things.
This means opening better schools and revamping our educational
system totally. It also means that we should pay the teachers the
highest sums of money to motivate good people to take up teaching.
The respect there was for teachers should be restored. About 10 days
ago, a poor professor was beaten to death in North India. All these
incidents will only aggravate the situation. There are already not
many good teachers anywhere in the schools or colleges.
We need good quality output from our schools and colleges very
quickly. There is already an acute shortage of good workforce in the
industry. Unless we increase the quality of education and pass it on
to all sections, we will not be able to meet the demand for skilled
people.
Good quality education for everyone is what we need. What do we have
now? We have unequal education from the basic level. Suddenly, there
is a widening of the orifice for some students (in the name of
reservations). They could have done without that. They should have
been brought to a position in which they could compete on equal terms
instead. This has not happened in 60 years. Can't we do any better?
Thanks and best wishes
Satya
To Post a message, send it to: racch...@yahoogroups.com
Courtesy: http://www.kanneganti.com/
Hanuma Kodavalla
> We still do not closely look at the nature of any work.
> We try to glorify certain professions and want to feel
> jealous of them, respect them. ...
> Look at Doctors. They do menial stuff all the time.
Thank God my childhood dream of becoming a doctor hasn't been realized. The
dirty work I did then seems infinitely better than the risky stuff the
doctors do.:-)
The anatomy of a profession doesn't seem to matter. For not so mysterious
reasons, more people want to become doctors than janitors. The question is
do all sections of the society have a fair chance of becoming doctors?
I'll write about education in Andhra Pradesh - based on some anecdotes from
my recent trip - as a reply to Satya gAri's post, soon.
Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao
Srikanth Bandi
>From: Sreenivas Paruchuri <sre...@gmx.de>
>Reply-To: racch...@yahoogroups.com
>To: racch...@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [racchabanda] Re: కాలిదాసు - రండ, శ్రీనాథుడు - రండాసుత
>Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 21:47:51 +0200
>
>lylayer wrote:
> > "Srikanth Bandi" <kantbrac@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Has any one seen this very entertaining old film "peLLi sandaDi",
> > "
> > మేడ మీద మేడ కట్టి
> > కోట్లు కూడబెట్టినట్టి కామందూ
>ఔ అరె రెఫెరింగ్ తొ prEmiMchi chooDu (ంఉల్లపుది తూక్ చరె ఒఫ్ థె
>టెలుగు స్చ్రిప్త్ అంద్ ఇఫ్ ఈ అం నొత్ మిస్తకెన్ ఎవెన్ వ్రొతె సొమె సొంగ్స్) ఫ్రొం 1967,
శ్రీనివస్, థంక్స్ ఫొర్ థె దెతైల్స్. prEmiMchi chooDu ఇస్ అన్ ఎకష్చెల్లెంత్ ఫిల్ం
అంద్ ఫొర్ థొసె విథ్ అ తస్తె ఫొర్ ఒల్ద్ సొంగ్స్, ఇత్ ఇస్ అ దెలిఘ్త్. ఠె సొంగ్
రెఫెర్రెద్ తొ ఇస్ వెర్య్ వెల్ల్ చొరెఒగ్రఫెద్, అహీద్ ఒఫ్ ఇత్స్ తిమెస్, విథ్ ఆణృ అంద్
ఒథెర్స్ తౌంతింగ్ 'రేలంగీ ('కామందూ), అంద్ లూక్స్ వెర్య్ గూద్ -ఎవెన్ నౌ-.
-----
ళ్య్ల వ్రొతె:
> > >ళొందొనిస్తన్ ' బ్య్ ంఎలనిఎ ఫిల్లిప్స్ ఫొర్ థొసె ఇంతెరెస్తెద్ ఇన్ గ్లొబల్
> > >పొలితిచ్స్, ఇఫ్ యౌ వంత్ తొ గెత్ తొ ఇత్ బెఫొరె టొన్య్ భ్లైర్ స్తెప్స్ దౌన్.
>>షె ఇస్
> > అ రిఘ్త్ వింగ్ నుత్ హొల్దింగ్ ఫుందమెంతలిస్త్ పొసితిఒన్స్ సిమిలర్ తొ వ్హత్
ఓసమ బిన్
> > లదెన్ వౌల్ద్ హొల్ద్ ఒన్ థె ఒథెర్ సిదె ఒఫ్ థె దివిదె.
> > > ఋఎగర్ద్స్
> > శ్రికంథ్
>టూ ళతె! శ్మిత్తెన్. భిత్తెన్ బ్య్ థె డ్రచుల.:-)
>ఈంప్రెస్సెద్ బ్య్ హెర్ ఒరతొర్య్ స్కిల్ల్స్ అంద్ వెంత్ అంద్ బౌఘ్త్ థె బూక్. ఋఈల్ల్య్ వౌల్ద్
>హవె లికెద్ థె వ్హొలె బూక్ రీద్ బ్య్ హెర్ తొ మె, ఇన్ హెర్ ఔన్ స్త్య్లిష్, ఫ్లుఇద్,
>చెరెబ్రల్ దిచ్తిఒన్
షె ఇస్ అ ప్రొఫెత్, ఇస్ణ్త్ షె?
>బుత్ తూ లతె ఫొర్ థత్ తూ. ఆన్య్ వయ్ ఈ దొణ్త్ థింక్ థెరె వౌల్ద్ బె అ డ్వ్డ్. ఈ
>విల్ల్ బె చరెఫుల్ అంద్ రీద్ థె సెచులర్ శెన్ ఇన్ బెత్వీన్ అంద్ అన్య్ ఎకష్త్రెమె లెఫ్త్
>వింగ్ వ్రితెర్ యౌ వౌల్ద్ లికె తొ సుగ్గెస్త్ తొ నుల్లిఫ్య్ థె ఎఫ్ఫెచ్త్ ఒఫ్ ంఎలనిఎ.
ఠెరె అరె సెచులర్ ఫర్ లెఫ్త్, సెచులర్ ఫర్ రిఘ్త్, నొన్-సెచులర్ లెఫ్త్, సెచులర్
నొన్-లెఫ్త్, సొ ఈ దొ నొత్ క్నౌ వ్హిచ్ ఒఫ్ థెసె చతెగొరిఎస్ విల్ల్ బె అంతిదొతె అంద్
థెన్ వ్హిచ్ విల్ల్ బె అంతిదొతె తొ అంతిదొతె అంద్ సొ ఒన్. ఈ థింక్ అల్ల్ షదెస్ ఒఫ్
దీప్ రెద్ గెత్ వొర్న్ ఔత్ అంద్ ఎవెంతూల్ల్య్ ఫదె ఇంతొ సఫ్ఫ్రొన్. శొ థె మత్తెర్ ఇస్
చొన్ఫుసింగ్ :-)
ఋఎగర్ద్స్
శ్రికంథ్
ప్స్: ఠె బూక్ హస్ ఎందొర్సెమెంత్ ఫ్రొం హిస్తొరీన్ ఋచర్ద్ ఫిపెస్ - అనొథెర్ రీసొన్
తొ బె వర్య్ ఒఫ్
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lylayer
wrote:
> Thank God my childhood dream of becoming a doctor hasn't been
realized. The
> dirty work I did then seems infinitely better than the risky stuff
the
> doctors do.:-)
Out there could be lots of patients who are thanking their lucky
stars that you did not become a doctor.:-) Nah! It is simply a
gain to a different field.
But who knows! you might become a doctor one day. My sister had done
that recently. After changing a few professions, :-)she became an
oncologist. I promply retired. :-)
Talking about sisters, in one of his novels Milan Kundera describes
sisters brilliantly. I have never ever seen any one who can describe
persons' inner thoughts and feelings- all those nuances, as he did.
But Indians may not have such finely developed feelings anyway.:-)
They just have some generic feelings. But really no well developed,
intricate individual feelings. Indian authors don't have to worry
too much in this area.
ViSvanAdha, however I think is very good in describing what is
passing thru a person's mind and the reasons behind each person's
behaviour. He stops and gives real detailed description of it. I
like that.
I enjoyed reading his 'chandraguptuni svapnamu.' recently. It was
not hard to read. The old style Telugu is still quite enjoyable.
May be I should just spread some books on my table. Note what are
the different strengths i like in these writers. Then take a
different situation and practice writing a few passages the way each
different writer writes.
Yup! I think I am going to practice . Practice. Like i am doing in
painting classes. Look at masters. Practice.
> The question is
> do all sections of the society have a fair chance of becoming
doctors?
If they do, how can some be writers, Sri Sris , and tennis stars .
>
> I'll write about education in Andhra Pradesh - based on some
anecdotes from
> my recent trip - as a reply to Satya gAri's post, soon.
>
> Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao
Sure. I am in agreement with Satya. Uniform standards across nation
is the right thing to do. But would love to read your new
experiences.
Isn't it time you pick a proper heading for this thread. :-) Got to
go get some lunch H!
regards
lyla.
Hemantha Kumar
"Leftukko Rightukko
Mundukko Venukakko
Chelliyo chellakko
Paiko Kindakko
endukko ekkadiko
ko ko ko ko ko......."
:-)) My usual trivia.
Best wishes
Hemantha Kumar
Srikanth Bandi <kant...@hotmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
There are secular far left, secular far right, non-secular left, secular
non-left, .........<snip>
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ari_sitaramayya
> on equal education for our children right from the start. The kid in
> the rural area should get the same education from kindergarten that
> the urban kid is getting. Education should be made compulsory for
all.
Satya gaarU:
A straight forward suggestion, but how do you think we can get there
from here? I am not being facetious. I would sincerely like to know
what changes - political, social, fiscal - you think would be
necessary to achieve good, equal quality and equal opportunity
education for all children.
Regards,
Ari Sitaramayya.
Hemantha Kumar
To start with, it said that any child out of school is considered to be a child labourer.
Then it adapted Kancheepuram district in Tamil Nadu and started building bridge schools and transit schools and started bringing in the children (either dropouts or never went to or exisiting child labourers to the transit/bridge schools and started educating them and preparing them for the regular school albeit a bit late in the age for some.
Now it is building Village Knowledge centres with three important sections in each centre. A Library, a computer centre and a vocational training centre. The computer centre enables all the citizens of the village, especially encouraging the children, in learning and using the computer not only for education but also for entertainment and the results have been very encouraging to say the least.
In the past two years almost 5000 children (potential child labourers) have been mainstreamed in this way.
By 2010, the vision of the organisation is to work towards equal education for the rural children as well on par with those of urban areas.
Yes, all this needs lots of efforts, money. But that is where the real challenges lie. We find some of the government agencies like "Sarva Siksha Abhiyaan" lending helping hands. Some nearby industries also help in part. And then donors of course.
But the efforts are there, which matters the most.
Best wishes
Hemantha Kumar
ari_sitaramayya <a...@OAKLAND.EDU> wrote:
--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, "Satyanarayana Pamarty"
wrote:
Srikanth Bandi
>--- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, "Satyanarayana Pamarty"
><pamarty@...> wrote:
> >
> > We should focus
> > on equal education for our children right from the start. The kid in
> > the rural area should get the same education from kindergarten that
> > the urban kid is getting. Education should be made compulsory for
>all.
>
>Satya gaarU:
>
>A straight forward suggestion, but how do you think we can get there
>from here? I am not being facetious. I would sincerely like to know
>what changes - political, social, fiscal - you think would be
>necessary to achieve good, equal quality and equal opportunity
>education for all children.
A few more to points:
Universal education is not same as university education, let alone a
quality university education which is what matters for jobs.
I heard that until late 60s most of the education until secondary level used
to be provided by public sector. It is still the case but they have lost out
on vastly expanded private sector schools (oxymoronically called "public"
schools). The trend in past 20 years also would make this very clear.
Private schools have mushroomed in every corner of cities and even small
towns. They also tend to get better results than those in public sector.
Most importantly one has to pay, and pay very heavily in case of some
schools. (English teaching is a chief ingredient of these schools, often at
the expense of the mother tongue).
Same is the case with health sector which has progressed from small time
doctors to super speciality hospitals. And we have seen efforts by previous
government to privatize water, which by the way is already privatized in
terms of tanker supplies in many towns.
Is there any basic and necessary entity that has not seen its public
ownership eroded and replaced by private providers in past decades? Given
all this trend, it is rather absurd to imagine that equal opportunity
somehow magically emerges out if thin air. We missed the bus already and
the bus is not going reverse in any near future.
Regards,
Srikanth
Hanuma Kodavalla
I of course agree with Satya gAru that the Government should do a lot more
to improve the education. Who, amongst the supporters of reservations,
opposes that? But why should abolishing reservations be a pre-condition to
improving our schools?
> Suddenly, there is a widening of the orifice for some students
> (in the name of reservations).
Pratab Bhanu Mehta, head of Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi, in his
commentary, "Democracy, Disagreement and Merit," in June 17, 2006 EPW,
mentioned a "relaxed standards in and relaxed standards out" phenomenon. But
he does not offer any evidence for this. (Mehta who was appointed by the PM
to the Knowledge Commission recently resigned protesting the reservations
for OBCs.)
It's of course common knowledge that the reservation candidates have lower
scores than others, but there are minimal qualifications for anyone to get
into an educational institution. Once entered, my engineering college
experience was that everyone took the same tests and was evaluated on the
same basis. It might be the case that the reservation candidates were not at
the top of the class, may be some were at the bottom of the class but so
were some of the open candidates too. In any case, those who got out were
*qualified* engineers irrespective of how they got in.
Mritiunjoy Mohanty, in a special article, "Social Inequality, Labour Market
Dynamics and Reservation," in September 2, 2006 EPW, counters Mehta with his
experience at IIM Calcutta.
> It can be called a butterfly, but it will never fly. It will hop all its
life.
(I know Satya gAru is a nice guy and wouldn't hurt a fly, but I want him to
think for a moment how a reservation seat engineer would feel at that
comment.)
If reservations crippled the candidates so much, then they must have a
pernicious effect on the service the candidates provided. Since Satya gAru
lives in Chennai, let us take the case of Tamil Nadu which seems to have one
of the highest state-mandated quotas in the country. In TN's state
institutions, 69% of the seats/jobs are reserved for SC/ST, BC and MBCs who
constitute 87% of the population.
Since this quota applied to doctors, nurses, administrators and so on, one
would expect the health system in TN to be in shambles due to the
preponderance of these hopping butterflies. But compared to most states,
TN's health service is far superior!
Mohanty cites Patwardhan and Palshikar's 1992 detailed study that squarely
rejected the belief that reserved seat doctors were unable to practice.
> There is not one system of education in this country.
In the US, the schools have autonomy in choosing their curriculum even at
the district level. I can understand some general guidelines from the Center
but why should there be one system for such a diverse country like India?
We do have common criteria at the state level. For the vast population in
AP, the main checkpoints of one's education - 10th class, intermediate and
the infamous EMCET for engineering and medical admission - have common tests
and syllabus and I believe were designed to be on par with CBSE. For another
view - that this common system even at the state level as designed by
NCERT/SCERT experts is unsuitable for some segments, see "కొన్నికలలు,
కొన్నిమెలకువలు - సార్వత్రిక విద్యతో నా అనుభవాలు," చినవీరభద్రుడు,
పేజీలు 288-289.
> When a butterfly struggles out of the orifice, it grows its wings.
And the reservation butterfly, unlike the one from Kendriya Vidyalay, didn't
have to struggle much! Does finishing the school, even while working as a
kid, missing the school as the parents seasonally moved in and out and
subjected to indignities due to one's caste, count as a struggle?
"వానాకాలపు ఎండనీడల తేమలో సీతాకోకచిలుకలు సభచేశాయి
తన సభల్లో తను కూరుకుపోయిన నగరానికి ఆ పిలుపు అందలేదు
కూరుకుపోయాను నేనూ, నాలోనేనుగా, పిలిచేదాకా ఆకాశం
నా ఇంటికిటికీ సందులోంచి, మామిడిచెట్టు నీడలోంచి
ఆ సెప్టెంబర్ మధాహ్న్నలా గడిపాను ఆత్మీయుల మధ్య
పసుపునీడల మధ్య, మహోద్యమంలా ప్రసరిస్తూన్న పచ్చికమధ్య
నా భాషని మర్చిపోయాను, అప్పుడే ఆ భాషలు బోధపడ్డాయి
వదిలిపెట్టానందరినీ, అప్పుడే వాళ్ళంతా నా వాళ్ళవుతారని
పృథ్వి విశాలం, ఆకాశం విశాలం, సీతాకోకచిలుక చిన్నది
జీవితకాలమెగిరినా చేరదొక కొసనుంచి మరొక మూలకి
గ్రహించానా మధ్యాహ్నం ఏ ఒక్క సీతాకోకచిలుకని చూసినా
అది ఎగిరినంత మేరకదే పృథ్వి, అదే ఆకాశమని."
-- "పునర్యానం," చినవీరభద్రుడు, పేజీలు 254-255.
> The policy makers dangle the reservations before the masses to perhaps
appease
> them. The poor guys don't know the harm ...
Well, the masses are poor, uneducated and clearly don't know what's good for
them. Why don't the educated and enlightened protest about the lack of
quality education? Most of them seem to be enamored of privatizing
everything - education, health and even drinking water! The elite amongst
them remind us to look up to South Korea, Thailand and Hong Kong but ignore
that our TODAY'S adult literacy rates are lower than what those countries
had in 1960 - when they initiated market-based transforms!
"పన్నులు కడుతున్నాం, చాతనయినంత charity చేస్తున్నాం;
మమ్మల్ని తప్పుపట్టే అర్హత ఎవరికీ లేదు," అంటారేమో (అంటామేమో)!
Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao
PS: My observations from the recent trip to AP will have to wait for a
while.
lylayer
>
> I of course agree with Satya gAru that the Government should do a
lot more
> to improve the education. Who, amongst the supporters of
reservations,
> opposes that? But why should abolishing reservations be a pre-
condition to
> improving our schools?
Are you a supporter of reservations, KHR? And if you are, who should
get these reservations and at what levels of schooling should they
get reservations? Since we are discussing the subject anew. Is the
topic of discussion only education in andhra here? to be clear.
If Satya's proposal is equal education, and if right from primary
school if you provide same kind of education, why should be there be
resevations, later on? Or do you want reservations right from
kindergarden?
If education need to be improved every one has to follow the same
rules. That is why no reservations becomes a pre requisite.
> he does not offer any evidence for this. (Mehta who was appointed
by the PM
> to the Knowledge Commission recently resigned protesting the
reservations
> for OBCs.)
Who are OBCS? I do not know this abbreviation.
What kind of evidence would you have liked to be shown? Could there
have been exit exams and tallying of these exam scores with entrance
exam scores of students admitted with help of and with out help of
reservations. Could there have been comparisons of performances
between schools which admit students with no reservations vs
reservations.
Wouldn't teachers face difficulties in classes teaching all students
at same level, when to begin with they are not at the same level of
knowledge? Would not other students who make an effort to learn,
suffer on account of those who can not or will not?
The goal is to maintain and raise standards. Not to drag them down
into a pit where none can function.
> It's of course common knowledge that the reservation candidates
have lower
> scores than others, but there are minimal qualifications for
anyone to get
> into an educational institution. ....
> the top of the class, may be some were at the bottom of the class
but so> were some of the open candidates too. In any case, those who
got out were
> *qualified* engineers irrespective of how they got in.
And that is fine in the case you mentioned. By the time they
graduated they seem to have caught up and are able to meet the set
standards.
But if they don't they have to be failed at that stage .Right? You
can not give the reservation students different exams, at each step
of the way and promise never to fail them . And then give them the
same jobs as others. How can you ?
> (I know Satya gAru is a nice guy and wouldn't hurt a fly, but I
want him to
> think for a moment how a reservation seat engineer would feel at
that
> comment.)
Must feelings be taken into consideration each time a proposal is
made to educate men? Are should we give priority to the merit of the
proposal. If feelings need to be part of each education proposal,
then equal attention should be given to everybody's feelings. Are
the feelings of backwards more important and worthy of consideration
than the forwards? what ever that division may be?
>
> Since this quota applied to doctors, nurses, administrators and so
on, one
> would expect the health system in TN to be in shambles due to the
> preponderance of these hopping butterflies. But compared to most
states,
> TN's health service is far superior!
And how do we know that? What studies compared chennai's health care
system with other states health care. Are there reports about it? or
is it personal experience of health care received in andhra vs
cennai.
>
> Mohanty cites Patwardhan and Palshikar's 1992 detailed study that
squarely
> rejected the belief that reserved seat doctors were unable to
practice.
Why not? There is great deal of time that elapses between time of
admission and graduation. If they were diligent and worked twice as
hard, may be they did catch up. if they do, they pass the exams
and graduate. if they don't they fail and they have to study again
and pass the exams before they can go out and practice their trade.
What is the new revelation here?
My question to you and others:
What would your personal prefernce be, if one is a patient? Would
you not care and try select a good doctor. Or at that time would you
like to care for the feelings of the backwards and try to select
your doctor on the basis of him being admitted to school because
of reservation. inferior training, to be kind to them. Would you as
a patient seek out these criteria to select your family physician?
a specialist?
Would graduating out of good scools and training in good hospitals
mean anything to you at all, while choosing services of a doctor?
Would you prefer to go to hospitals with good credentialing for the
doctors or would you not care for any rigorous scrutiny of
education, and training of a doctor.
Do you value your heath and life or would you like to consider the
care providers feelings? at that point.
> Does finishing the school, even while working as a
> kid, missing the school as the parents seasonally moved in and out
and
> subjected to indignities due to one's caste, count as a struggle?
So do children of soldiers, ambassadors, English in India, Indians
in America, Americans in India, Iraquis in London.etc. Every one has
hardships of their own. Every one has their own struggles. Why does
one ascribe dignities to one group only and indignities to the
other group? Is it because of limited knowledge of only a group's
struggles and ignorance of others'?
Also any person can only know their own indignity. But how can
anybody ascribe their own indignity to an entire caste or race? Let
each person decide if they suffered or had a good life on their own.
No need to control others feelings. No need to spread the contagion.
Past personal indignities do not have to perpetuate ill feelings and
hinder progress, hinder setting up good viable programs now for
all.
It looks the reason people will not come out of this present
privileged discriminated classes is because there are now special
perks that go with it. So they want to massage their hurt feelings,
keep blackmailing others, keep harping on their struggles and
disadvantages. They have realised there are lot of easy advantages
in remaining disadvantaged. They don't have to study just as hard,
if they know they will be given special seats, special tests,
special awards.
I am not for reservations.
Reservations corrupt thinking, corrupt education. Reservations are
divisive, prevent the objectives of equality of men, equal
privileges,and equal treatment. When you allow reservations to
continue, you are setting up the same system which is previously
resented and considered as a failure. You can not correct a wrong by
doing the same wrong this time to a different set of people. It is
ridiculous.
regards
lyla
Satyanarayana Pamarty
wrote:
Dear KHR gAru:
Thank you very much for your reply.
> > It can be called a butterfly, but it will never fly. It will hop
> > all its life.
>
> (I know Satya gAru is a nice guy and wouldn't hurt a fly, but I
> want him to think for a moment how a reservation seat engineer
> would feel at that comment.)
First things first. I apologize for my comment if it in any way hurt
anyone. As most of you know by now, that was not my intention.
> If reservations crippled the candidates so much, then they must
> have a pernicious effect on the service the candidates provided.
> Since Satya gAru lives in Chennai, let us take the case of Tamil
> Nadu which seems to have one of the highest state-mandated quotas
> in the country. In TN's state institutions, 69% of the seats/jobs
> are reserved for SC/ST, BC and MBCs who constitute 87% of the
> population.
<snip>
I reiterate that I am for equality. If reservations worked, the words
SC/ST, BC and MBCs should have gone out of fashion by now. They
haven't. Like Srikanth gaaru said, we missed the bus already.
I too feel sad that the state sponsored schools haven't kept abreast
with private schools. What I am asking the state or whomsoever to do
is to correct this by providing free education to the level of
private schools to one and all. That should be our aim. Not
perpetuating what apparently are fruitless pursuits.
I never used the word "caste" on purpose. I believe the real
divisions today are just "rural" and "urban".
> > There is not one system of education in this country.
>
> In the US, the schools have autonomy in choosing their curriculum
> even at the district level. I can understand some general
> guidelines from the Center but why should there be one system for
> such a diverse country like India?
I look forward to receiving mOhana rAvu gAri message on this before I
respond. May be there is a lot more to learn here.
> > When a butterfly struggles out of the orifice, it grows its
wings.
>
> And the reservation butterfly, unlike the one from Kendriya
> Vidyalay, didn't have to struggle much! Does finishing the school,
> even while working as a kid, missing the school as the parents
> seasonally moved in and out and subjected to indignities due to
> one's caste, count as a struggle?
It certainly does. I wanted that struggle to be removed. Was I asking
for something wrong? I want the reservation butterfly to also be a
kendriya vidyalaya butterfly? Am I asking for too much?
> > The policy makers dangle the reservations before the masses to
> > perhaps appease them. The poor guys don't know the harm ...
>
> Well, the masses are poor, uneducated and clearly don't know what's
> good for them. Why don't the educated and enlightened protest about
> the lack of quality education? ...
They better protest. Are you with me?
> "పన్నులు కడుతున్నాం, చాతనయినంత charity చేస్తున్నాం;
> మమ్మల్ని తప్పుపట్టే అర్హత ఎవరికీ లేదు," అంటారేమో (అంటామేమో)!
Bulls-eye! :-)
Thanks and best wishes
Satya
J. K. Mohana Rao
--- Satyanarayana Pamarty <pam...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I look forward to receiving mOhana rAvu gAri message on this before I
> respond. May be there is a lot more to learn here.
>
I donot know how much of this is going to be suitable
under Indian conditions, be it AP or TN. In India
it is the state that foots the bill of education.
In the US, it is the local authorities that bear
the financial burden of educating the children.
This reflects in the quality and the facilities in
school districts. The education in the Montgomery
county, MD (close to Washington, DC) thus is quite
different from that in the neighbouring rural
Frederick county where I live. The amount alloted to
education in India is extremely meagre.
This will be a bit boring for the residents of US.
Anyway, in the US, school education is local, more or
less entirely dependent on the money raised through
property taxes. In fact, half the income of the
counties goes towards the school education. The state
gives only nominal grants and partial funds for new school
construction.
The advantage here is- the local school board decides on
the curriculum and standards. The disadvantage is if the
county is not rich, then the schools are poorer in
facilities. So there is abig disparity in the facilities
from one school system to another in the same state.
All the students (private and public) take standardised
tests that are common to the whole country. The college
admissions, to an extent, is based on the performance
in these tests. Sports like basketball, (American) football,
swimming, etc as well as music including bands and
cheerleading form an integral part of the education.
At the high school level, there is choice in selecting
subjects. Many times, the bright kids earn college
credits even in high school.
As I mentioned, the standards are not uniform.
The inner cities and rural schools are relatively below
par compared to the urban and semi-urban school systems.
With the paucity of funds, slowly but surely, choices
are becoming less. With some exceptions, even at the school
level, a segregation occurs. The white and the Asian kids
take more advanced courses like maths, science, etc.
and the African-American and the Hispanic students take
the easier courses. This is not a generalisation.
There are exceptions to this. Even though almost
all students (>95%) graduate after 12 years of schooling,
the value of the diplomas is not the same. Students
who take tougher courses get admission in elite schools
(Harvard, Princeton, etc.) and the so-so students
are admitted to the community colleges and state universities.
Education is free in public schools up to the 12th grade.
But college education is very costly. In elite schools
the fees can run into as much as 50 to 100,000 dollars / year.
The undergraduate degree is a four-year course. But
students take more than 4 years to complete the degree.
The aid they get in college is income based. There are
very few merit based fellowships in the college.
Regards! - mOhana
__________________________________________________
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viplavreddy
have lower
> scores than others, but there are minimal qualifications for
Could you please clarify if you meant the 'averages'
for "reservation candidates" or specific individuals or in general.
I followed for a while the OBC categories 'A' and 'D' profiles
(simply because I had a few close friend from thost categories) --
they individually most of the time scored more than I did in any
school test; on average the competition in those two categories
rivaled that of open category (at the time I followed those back in
the 90s). It is false to say that those two categories in general
have lower scores than others unless ofcourse one is trying to
distinguish between scoring 59 marks out of 100 vs. scoring 60 out
of 100. To me anyone who scores 59 or 60 fall at the same level.
> same basis. It might be the case that the reservation candidates
were not at
> the top of the class, may be some were at the bottom of the class
but so
> were some of the open candidates too. In any case, those who got
out were
> *qualified* engineers irrespective of how they got in.
If you looked at the dropout rates there is a great difference among
the two sections. I don't have a study on hand but I believe
someone looked at drop out rates in engineering colleges by category
of admission -- I actually do not mind someone failing repeatedly
before passing a test but dropouts tend to waste resources without a
result (if it is private resources I have no issue with it as it is
the case with private colleges, but the case of scarce public
resources would be different).
> of the highest state-mandated quotas in the country. In TN's state
> institutions, 69% of the seats/jobs are reserved for SC/ST, BC and
MBCs who
> constitute 87% of the population.
>
Someone is losing here with only 69% reserved for 87% of the
population (that is a 18% gap), should it not be 87% reserved??
What is the argument for not expanding such a quota in equal
proportion?
> the infamous EMCET for engineering and medical admission - have
common tests
> and syllabus and I believe were designed to be on par with CBSE.
minimum qualification at the EMCET are violated I believe, I don't
if it is the case with IIT or IIM entrances. I read recently somone
scoring 1 mark (I am not how that is possible but it happens all the
time I think even when a multiple choice test is given) was made
eligible for admission on the basis of filling the quota (it may be
a case where, if an institution does not fill the quota it stands to
lose government subsidy) -- may be a good public policy wrt to
electoral politics but hardly a responsible one.
> Well, the masses are poor, uneducated and clearly don't know
what's good for
> them. Why don't the educated and enlightened protest about the
lack of
> quality education? Most of them seem to be enamored of privatizing
> everything - education, health and even drinking water! The elite
well, the residents of the country most of these are private seem to
not complain -- in fact, they complain about the big government
(that rarely provides these three above).
-viplav-
Srinivasa Chary Vuruputuri
My name is Srinivas (you can call me VS, if it makes it easy for you). I
live in Hyderabad and work for a software company. I am maried and have
5-year old daughter.
I picked up the habit of reading from my brother. Ismail school of poetry
has a great appeal to me. Also, I like reading essays and articles written
cogently. In several ways, I consider myself a beginner.
I have been following the discussions on RB for past several months. I have
learnt a lot of things, perhaps, in hurry. But I am sure, I have learnt
atleast a few things that I will retain for the days to come.
I have been following the discussion on the subject of Reservations,
Education and Government policies. I wanted to participate in it and learn
from it.
Here are a few random thoughts:
KHR: "Reservations is not *the* solution; it's only one of a few necessary
measures. But thanks to some anti-reservationists, that gets the most
attention!"
I get your point. But I think, that's because reservations are divisive,
they definitely cause heart-burn for the other "deprived" lot. There is a
lot more that can be said on this but I will move on.
I am sure KHR wouldn't reject valid arguments from Anti-Reservationists, if
offered.
Satya: "We do not offer any call centre or software jobs in the company I
work for. So, people who can be considered average come for these
interviews."
Satya, I have had the chance of conducting a few interviews and I have
worked with several people. I can tell you that you don't always get to
interact with the best and the brightest, even in the IT industry.
In fact, I have seen more active minds in this forum than anywhere else.
KHR: "even while working as a kid, missing the school as the parents
seasonally moved in and out and subjected to indignities due to
one's caste, count as a struggle?"
Satya has broadened his definition of "struggle" to include the travails of
the students from poor communities. But does that struggle alone better
equip the victims to excel in their profession?
More over, this leads us on to the question of how to handle the creamy
layer (doesn't it?)
On your quote from the story "Gated Communities"
(> "పన్నులు కడుతున్నాం, చాతనయినంత charity చేస్తున్నాం;
> మమ్మల్ని తప్పుపట్టే అర్హత ఎవరికీ లేదు," అంటారేమో (అంటామేమో)!), I have
two questions for you and the other members of RB.
1. Seriously, what do you expect our professionals – apart from paying
taxes and contributing to the charities?
I am asking this question because I would like to make a better contribution
to the society but I do not know what to do (of course, all RBites can
answer this question)
1. A few weeks ago, I meant to start off my RB conversations with a
discussion on Akkiraju's story that you quoted from. I thought that the
writer was portraying the Achievers' Disquiet in this story. And that, he
did very effectively.
What is the source of this guilt? Is it our compassionate soul trying to
express itself? Or is it the moral code imposed by our literary/cultural
environment? As Ayn Rand would ask, "Am I my brother's keeper?"
I will end this mail with one statement of concurrence and one advise that I
picked up from the book "Falling Over Backwards – An Essay Against
Reservations and Judicial Populism" (Arun Shourie).
There are people who deserve to be helped.
The individual, and not the group should be the unit of State policy.
Regards
Srinivas
On 9/20/06, Satyanarayana Pamarty <pam...@hotmail.com > wrote:
>
> --- In racch...@yahoogroups.com <racchabanda%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Hanuma Kodavalla" <hanumak@...>
> wrote:
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
To Post a message, send it to: racch...@yahoogroups.com
Courtesy: http://www.kanneganti.com/
Hanuma Kodavalla
> If reservations worked, the words SC/ST, BC and MBCs
> should have gone out of fashion by now. They haven't.
> Like Srikanth gaaru said, we missed the bus already.
Satya gAru, is that the criteria to measure if the policy had worked? That
the workforce in several jobs represents the cross section of the society
better today than before the reservations - does that count?
I understood Srikanth Bandi's post as a critique on the privatization of
education and health and not that of reservations.
> I never used the word "caste" on purpose. I believe the real
> divisions today are just "rural" and "urban".
It's hard to talk about reservations without invoking the caste. Yes,
there's a divide between rural and urban as well as within rural and within
urban.
> They better protest. Are you with me?
I'm with you. But I'm also with Justice Chinnappa Reddy.:-)
Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao
J. K. Mohana Rao
--- Hanuma Kodavalla <han...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I never used the word "caste" on purpose. I believe the real
> > divisions today are just "rural" and "urban".
>
Tis news item has ample relevance to some of the points
under discussion:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5345100.stm
Regards! - mOhana
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Satyanarayana Pamarty
wrote:
> > If reservations worked, the words SC/ST, BC and MBCs
> > should have gone out of fashion by now. They haven't.
> > Like Srikanth gaaru said, we missed the bus already.
>
> Satya gAru, is that the criteria to measure if the policy had
> worked? That the workforce in several jobs represents the cross
> section of the society better today than before the reservations -
> does that count?
Yes, it does. May be I kept my bar high on the expected results.
To make it clear one more time, I am not at all against people
benefiting from reservations. I have only been saying that
reservations haven't delivered what ought to have been delivered. Now
that we have tried it, and achieved limited results, we have to try
something new to achieve better results. That's all.
Let's look at it another way. Let's for a moment forget those who
have benefited from reservations. Reservations helped some people in
the under-priveleged sections of our society. No question, but how
many of those is the question? Did everyone benefit from the
reservations in those sections? What would be the percentage of those
who would have benefited?
Reservations help those who have passed XII standard (normally). How
many in the under-priveleged sections made it to this level in the
last 60 years? Did everyone make it? If many did not make it, what
about them? What was their percentage in the society?
What is our state's educational policy towards those who have not
benefited from the reservations? I suggested that education be
provided to all. To reach them, our policies should change. That's
what I meant. I did not say reservations haven't changed our society
at all.
I am saying reservations haven't been enough, and the progress made
is not enough. Reservations polarised the differences and
strengthened the divisions and set us on a retrograde path. The
divisions are even more hard and rigid now than they were at the time
of Independence (I think).
As kids, neither I nor my friends knew or bothered what community we
belonged to. We were all friends and belonged to one class. In the
twelfth, we were suddenly woken up to what seemed like a new found
reality. Lines were drawn, complexes set in.
> I understood Srikanth Bandi's post as a critique on the
> privatization of education and health and not that of reservations.
Yes, but he also said that state sponsored schools lost out along the
way. I took off from that comment.
> It's hard to talk about reservations without invoking the caste.
> Yes, there's a divide between rural and urban as well as within
> rural and within urban.
These divisions cannot be killed unless there is a level field and an
equal opportunity for all. I would love to see a day when a free
school would be coveted by even those who can afford an education for
the quality of education that it offers. When that happens, those
schools will make all the difference needed. The million divisions
that are there will go.
> > They better protest. Are you with me?
>
> I'm with you. But I'm also with Justice Chinnappa Reddy.:-)
Thanks. We will come to some consensus here before we start our
protest I am sure. :)
Thanks and best regards
Satya
ari_sitaramayya
> > lack of
> > quality education? Most of them seem to be enamored of privatizing
> > everything - education, health and even drinking water! The elite
>
> well, the residents of the country most of these are private seem to
> not complain -- in fact, they complain about the big government
> (that rarely provides these three above).
>
> -viplav-
>
Viplav gaarU, do you have a country in mind where the basic education
is mostly private? To my knowledge basic education (up to high school)
in every prosperous country of the world is public with private
schools existing as auxiliaries. While the leaders of India have
virtually destroyed public education, privatizing everything under
pressure from external forces, there is not one politician in the
United States who argues for privatization of basic education. All the
arguments are about allowing private schools to compete with public
schools for taxpayer money.
Regards,
Ari Sitaramayya.
viplavreddy
wrote:
>
> --- In racch...@yahoogroups.com, "viplavreddy" <viplavreddy@>
> > > Why don't the educated and enlightened protest about the
> > > lack of
> > > quality education? Most of them seem to be enamored of
privatizing
> > > everything - education, health and even drinking water! The
elite
> >
> > well, the residents of the country most of these are private
seem to
> > not complain -- in fact, they complain about the big government
> > (that rarely provides these three above).
> >
> > -viplav-
> >
>
> Viplav gaarU, do you have a country in mind where the basic
education
> is mostly private? To my knowledge basic education (up to high
school)
> in every prosperous country of the world is public with private
Ari gaaru kshamiMcaali -- I thought the context was
about 'education, reservations & govt policy': I hardly know any
country that advocates or implements reservations in basic education
(meaning, thru 10th grade in Indian context or 12th/high school in
the US). May be the proponents of reservations can explain: would
you like to advocate that as well?? if not, why not?
My comment was wrt to higher education -- one could argue that to be
publicly funded/subsidized as well -- but hardly govt controlled wrt
to quotas etc.,
Let me take this chance to ask our friend Lyla a question:
When you say you oppose reservations, would you extend that to
Affirmative Action programs as well?
Viplav
lylayer
<pamarty@...> wrote:
> As kids, neither I nor my friends knew or bothered what community
we
> belonged to. We were all friends and belonged to one class. In the
> twelfth, we were suddenly woken up to what seemed like a new found
> reality. Lines were drawn, complexes set in.
>
Hi Satya :
I really liked everything you said so far on this subject.
Why not think of 'caste complex' as a group of diseases which are
undermining the welfare of society a) by hindering the education of
children and adults b) by promoting violence among people C) by
taking away government's time to suppress riots instead of investing
time in good projects.
Then why not elaborate your education proposal as a remedy.
Attach more information on the real numbers of young people that
need education, And some maps of Andhra to indicate where schools
are to be placed and how many there need to be. A rough estimate of
cost -of procuring site for each school, building, and equipping it
with edu tools and to make it into a turn key operation.
Currently there is lot of wealth in the world and more
philonthropists than before to fund worthy projects.
Why not submit it to Bill Gates Foundation. We know Gates is both
into cleaning up diseases, and providing education. This a very
suitable project for his foundation, in a country he is very much
interesed in.
These are concrete projects, to be done in an organized way. If done
correctly they will turn into good revenue generating centers which
can be sold to government or private sector to run. They provide edu
to kids and employment to many more people as you said. I hear some
doctors who returned ti India from here, have built universities,
medical schools and are running them successfully.
The population in India is just too big, for any government to
handle. People simply got into the lazy and easy habit of harping
on corruption in politics and that continuosly erodes on the
credibility of the responsible people. The numbers in India are
staggering. To figure out how to provide, food, shelter, edu to all
is a mammoth task.
It is very hard to function for the government in a negative
atmosphere. Intellectuals in Andhra and outside India should rally
around Andhra government. Give it support. Make sure worthy projects
are taken up and concluded and then maintained. It is not a crime to
take outside help and build up the state/ country and get stronger.
It is no longer fashionable to be robinhoods, renegade writers and
useless preachers. Doing, producing, making money is chic.
Schooling had always been a big industry in Andhra. From what you
say, It looks as though there is need for more schools and some
modernisation , good set of rules, good organisation and management.
I will go the route of submitting a plan to Bill Gates and see if
funds can be secured for such a project. In my mind it is very
worthy project, not so hard to accomplish either. Takes a few years
to come to frution, but certainly can be done.
Projects can always be put together and be completed. Love doing
projects. There is gain for all.
Not interested in nebulous things as hurt feelings, unfulfilled
desires, lost opportunities, desparations out of disparities - this
kind of sissy fluff, keep floating about like 'muscae volitantes.'
Thanks
lyla
P.S: Welcome to the new member VS, who did all the right things,
praised rb enough and got right down to business of discussion.:-):-)
No. Sir ! VS! You are not your brother's keeper. Nor am I. All
need to keep up and earn their upkeep. To keep it simple.
Hanuma Kodavalla
> Could you please clarify if you meant the 'averages' for
> "reservation candidates" or specific individuals or in general.
I meant in general the cut-off score for OCs is higher than for BCs which in
turn is higher than for SC/STs. I believe the gap has narrowed over the
years but I don't have any data handy.
Specific individuals amongst BCs or SC/STs may score higher. I know a couple
of BCs in my intermediate batch who were AP state rank holders.
> Someone is losing here with only 69% reserved for 87% of the
> population ...What is the argument for not expanding such a
> quota in equal proportion?
The intent of reservations, as interpreted by the courts, is not for
"proportional" but "adequate" representation. What's adequate, I guess, is
left out to the law-makers.
> well, the residents of the country most of these are private seem to
> not complain ...
Do you mean the US? The governments of the so-called market economies
including the US spend an enormous share of their GDP on health, education
and social security. (See Dr`eze and Sen, page 43.) When Bush tried to
meddle with SS there was a backlash. When the Iron Lady of Great Britain had
some plans for the National Health Service, the public did protest and she
had no choice but back out.
Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao
Satyanarayana Pamarty
> I really liked everything you said so far on this subject.
Thanks Lyla.
>
> Then why not elaborate your education proposal as a remedy.
It cannot be called a remedy until we brainstorm it fully. From my
room, overlooking the next building's toilets, this seems to be
okay. :-)
There are many brilliant people on the forum who have their rooms
overlooking better or worse things. They all haven't spoken up yet.
The others have to speak too. If we detach emotions and think of the
common good, we will arrive at the right solutions. Everyone has to
bring in their ideas. Then people have to come to a consensus. More
heads are better than one. We need to make the proposals as fool
proof as possible.
I think I have said all I need to say. Now, I want the others to beat
this rug. Let's eventually compile all the ideas. Only after that, we
should set about the action. For it to work, all the people should
concur.
Your idea about going to the Bill Gates Foundation for funds should
work if we have a fool proof plan with us.
Thanks and best wishes
Satya
Hanuma Kodavalla
10:52 AM
> ... this is my first post ...
> Ismail school of poetry has a great appeal to me.
VS, welcome to RB! I look forward to reading more of your writings on Ismail
and others.
> ... you don't always get to interact with the best and the brightest,
> even in the IT industry.
> In fact, I have seen more active minds in this forum than anywhere else.
To prove your point, most of the active posters here are not from IT. :-)
> I think, that's because reservations are divisive,
> they definitely cause heart-burn for the other "deprived" lot.
There's a reason why the constitution mandated reservations. Our society has
deep divisions and the laws are not made in some imagined world. I agree
they definitely cause heart-burn for most upper-caste folks whether they are
"deprived" or not. And whatever might be our disagreements on reservations,
let us keep in perspective what these deprivations are for different groups.
I don't know if you experienced the village life. Read M. N. Srinivas's "The
Remembered Village," page 197 when his shortcomings were brought home
"poignantly." That was more than fifty years ago. But I can reveal some
poignant things from a trip to my village last month.
> ... the question of how to handle the creamy layer ...
Yes, it must be addressed.
> What do you expect our professionals - apart from paying taxes and
> contributing to the charities?
We professionals have deep differences on social issues
If you like Rand, you want Government limited to the military, the police
and the courts - that, if I remember from my youth - and I could be totally
wrong, was her brand of Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal. If you like Sen's
view of a just society, you want the Government to play a significant role
in education, health and social security. And those two thinkers cover only
a part of the political spectrum. Based on one's convictions, there are
different paths to take.
> The individual, and not the group should be the unit of State policy.
The argument that we are all just human beings and the policy shouldn't talk
about this or that group is not new. It's just an escape from addressing the
inequalities. See Sen's comments on "Social Justice" in his interview:
http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2204/stories/20050225005401300.htm
I'm more influenced by my village life and liberal thinkers like Amartya Sen
than Ayn Rand or Arun Shourie.
Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao
ari_sitaramayya
wrote:
>
> Please pardon me for some "self dabba" on our work in this relation.
The organisation, I now work for, is earnestly pursuing this matter.
Hemantha Kumar gaarU: I am grateful to you and many others like you
who are involved with NGOs doing educational and social work. Up and
until recently I did write small checks for such organizations.
However, I am beginning to have second thoughts on these
organizations, particularly those working in the area of basic
education.
We pay taxes and expect the govt to run good quality schools, as Satya
gaaru described. Even if they were not of good quality, there were
functional public schools up until a couple of decades ago. Now, and I
have first hand knowledge of this, the govt does pay hefty salaries
for teachers who don't even bother to go to their school. Teachers are
not accountable, neither are provincial leaders who interfere with
schools. The parents end up sending their children to private schools
at great expense. Destruction of public schools in order to encourage
private schools is the biggest crime the leaders in AP have committed
over the years.
Now where do the NGOs come in. These are run mostly by highly
motivated, idealistic young people. They do the work that we have
already paid the govt to do. In other words, they lift the pressure
off the govt. With NGOs getting involved in education, privatization
is strengthened and public sphere is weakened. Education should not
depend upon the charity of anybody, it is the most basic and essential
responsibility of the govt and all that the NGOs do is undercut that.
Instead of providing education for a few here and there, if the folks
involved in NGOs organize to bring pressure on the govt, that is,
engage in political activity, they do good to every child in the
state.
As it stands today, NGOs are co-culprits in the crime, not a solution
to the problem.
lylayer
wrote:
>
> Now where do the NGOs come in. These are run mostly by highly
> motivated, idealistic young people. They do the work that we have
> already paid the govt to do. In other words, they lift the
pressure
> off the govt. With NGOs getting involved in education,
privatization
> is strengthened and public sphere is weakened. Education should
not
> depend upon the charity of anybody, it is the most basic and
essential
> responsibility of the govt and all that the NGOs do is undercut
that.
Good points Ari.
In a recent conference by blacks for blacks ( watched it on c-span)
One professor of socialogy taking a question from audience said -yes
voluntary and charitable, non-profit organisations should be the
back bone of bringing progress and helping in many areas where money
is needed, or awareness is needed. etc. With out their help the
progress will be too slow.
Another black professor was not for it.
He said in education the onus shoud always be on the government.
Education is government 's responsibility. They should deliver it to
all. Sometimes the govt may say there is already enough help being
given by this and that organization and may try to slip out of their
responsibility and divert their money to other things.
The second professor is more right than the first.
But both arguments can be combined and used effectively for the
best benefit of people.
Yes, the government is responsible and should remain responsible for
education. There should be pressure exerted on government to deliver
the goods. If they have enough money to do it, they should do it.
Why even ask others? What for?
Yet tremendous help can be given by wealthy, and those who have the
know-how. and if well coordinated with government agencys and plans,
it augment's government's strength. There is quicker progress, and
lesser distress for people. Projects succeed and get finished
faster.
But government at all times must have the responsibility of giving
proper education to all. It must have complete knowledge and
supervision on all organizations.
Similarly all private, charitable orgs should engage in dialogue
with the govt, be able to question the govt of its work and results,
before they give the supplemental help.
No one can run amuck.
regards
lyla
Hanuma Kodavalla
> Are you a supporter of reservations, KHR?
Yes.
> That is why no reservations becomes a pre requisite.
The constitution has a directive that the state must "endeavor" to give
eight years of free and compulsory education to all children by 1960! Even
after 46 years, this hasn't happened! (I think this should be increased to
12 years of schooling.)
Reservations are in *higher* education. I don't understand why abolishing
reservations is a *pre-requisite* to the Government meeting the primary and
secondary education goals. Can you explain the logic please?
> Who are OBCS?
Other Backward Classes. MBCs for Most ...
> What kind of evidence would you have liked to be shown?
That the graduating reserved candidates did not pass the same tests as the
open candidates.
> Wouldn't teachers face difficulties in classes teaching all
> students at same level, when to begin with they are not at
> the same level of knowledge?
There is some minimum criteria to get into any degree program. Classes
always have students at different levels. Teachers should know how to handle
that.
> Would not other students who make an effort to learn,
> suffer on account of those who can not or will not?
I haven't seen this suffering. So, reservation candidates cannot and will
not learn?!
> Not to drag them down into a pit where none can function.
Show some evidence that our Government engineering and medical colleges are
in the pits.
There are many donation colleges where the candidates' scores may be lower
than some of the reserved candidates in a Government college. Does one have
the same concerns about the standards there? Or is it just good business?
Rs. 30+ lakhs for an MBBS seat! What's that Emerson said about money?
> But if they don't they have to be failed at that stage .Right?
Yes. That's what the institutes do - whether one is a reserved candidate or
not.
> And how do we know that? What studies compared chennai's ...
See Dr`eze and Sen, pages 213-218. It has references to the surveys and
Leela Visaria's study.
> What is the new revelation here?
Disproves the hopping butterflies theory.
> Must feelings be taken into consideration each time a proposal is
> made to educate men?
> Are the feelings of backwards more important and worthy of
> consideration than the forwards? ...
> try select a good doctor ...
> Or at that time would you like to care for the feelings of the backwards
My parenthetical remark is grossly misinterpreted on several fronts. The so
called proposal to "educate" men was that the reservation butterfly can
never fly - it will hop all its life.
If I were a reservation candidate at Guntur Medical College but got my
degree after passing all the required tests, what does that comment mean to
me? I can never be a competent doctor? Why? Don't I have a certified degree
I worked hard for? I am branded an incompetent doctor *for life* just
because I got in through reservation even though I got out as a qualified
doctor! You may think it's highly "educating" but I find it simply inhuman.
I know Satya gAru wouldn't have meant it that way, but I had to point out
unfortunately that's what it meant.
I made it clear in my post what it means to be a qualified engineer
or doctor. These questions about if feelings of backwards more important
than
others or do we choose the doctor based on feelings - I don't see how they
can be based on my remark.
> So do children of soldiers, ambassadors, English in India ...
> Why does one ascribe dignities to one group only and indignities
> to the other group?
For some reason, the constitution writers felt the so called untouchables'
children suffered more than the ambassadors' children. Why? Unfortunately,
one needs to study history for that.
> They don't have to study just as hard ...
It's not that they don't or can't study; they lack the money to have the
*right* preparation to get through those entrance exams. With those
residential colleges in Vijayawada, Intermediate costs upwards of Rs. 60,000
per year.
If one has at least a few acres, one can sell an acre or two and send the
kid to Narayana, Vijnana or Chaitanya residential and gamble on getting into
medicine or engineering. But most folks in the lower-castes don't have even
one acre of land. పొగాకు గ్రేడింగ్ కి పోతే రోజుకు పాతిక రూపాయలొస్తాయ్. పొగాకు
నాట్లకుపోతే ఆడమనిషికి నలభై, మగమనిషికి అరవై వస్తాయ్. అవీ ఇప్పటి
కూలి రేట్లు.
> Reservations are divisive, ... It is ridiculous.
I agree in this debate not all arguments have the same intellectual rigor as
that planes falling argument. For yet another argument, see Sen's "Merit and
Justice": http://pup.princeton.edu/chapters/s6818.pdf .
Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao
lylayer
<pamarty@...> wrote:
> There are many brilliant people on the forum who have their rooms
> overlooking better or worse things. They all haven't spoken up yet.
> heads are better than one. We need to make the proposals as fool
> proof as possible.
> Let's eventually compile all the ideas. Only after that, we
> should set about the action. For it to work, all the people should
> concur.
Makes good sense. Will continue to follow and participate in the
discussion.
thanks
lyla
viplavreddy
>
> As it stands today, NGOs are co-culprits in the crime, not a
solution
> to the problem.
I tend to agree with the assessment that NGOs are not a solution to
the problem.
A private enterprise in Chittoor owned by our former CM Naidu & his
wife -- crippled an established, competing government owned dairy
industry in AP -- and the facts seem to support that. But a question
could be asked, if private industry could do it alone and profitably,
what was govt business with that venture? It makes it irrelevant.
In education 'industry' -- the govt education is being made irrelevant
as well. An experienced mind recently said: 'public education means
no education'. A next generation policy must evolve from such a
situation in order to rectify the situation. Unless there is a close
and direct accountability to the way our schools are run, there can
not be a change in the situation. No way the CBN instituted 'vidyaa
committee' system or the later changes in it made by present congress
cgovt will correct it; those supposedly 'parents committees' were also
created with 'reservations in view' and to satisfy the electoral
politcs at every level starting with villages. Those attempts simply
poisoned the village atmosphere, in my reading.
Central planning to change and administer schools provided no evidence
of improvement. That in fact is the poison pill to the education
system.
regards, viplav
Sai Sateesh Kumar
Hello Friends,
As some good discussion is going on one of the important topics, I
thought of compiling and keeping all comments and suggestions at one
place. I made the compilation and put it at this link.
http://telugubrains.wordpress.com/2006/09/22/educationreservation-and-go\
vernment-policy/
<http://telugubrains.wordpress.com/2006/09/22/educationreservation-and-g\
overnment-policy/>
If any of you have any objections, please tell me. I will delete those
particular comments or total compilation according to your objections. I
might have missed some comments and order may not be proper. If you want
to include some more comments, you can directly add there. All further
posts on this topic, I will try to add to the link.
Regard,
Sateesh Kumar TVS
0082-19-781-8012
http://telugubrains.tripod.com <http://telugubrains.tripod.com>
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Satyanarayana Pamarty
wrote:
> > What is the new revelation here?
>
> Disproves the hopping butterflies theory.
Dear KHR gaaru!
I wish the theory can be disproved. I would be the first person to be
happy to see it disproved too. It will be disproved only if the
reservations stop at the degree level.
But don't they continue? The qualified graduates who come out passing
the same tests as others still need reservations to get them their
jobs, still need reservations to get them their promotions in their
jobs, all their life. It doesn't stop there; they need reservations
for their kids and perhaps grand children too. Did I miss something?
(Of course, there are exceptions to this and there are plenty of
achievers out there, but this is what meets our eye generally.)
> The so called proposal to "educate" men was that the reservation
> butterfly can never fly - it will hop all its life.
Equal education will ensure that help need not be provided life-long
to anyone and that the recipient of the equal education gains his/her
self-confidence and esteem and will not rely on help all his/her life
at every step of his/her way and will move with self-propulsion.
> I know Satya gAru wouldn't have meant it that way, but I had to
> point out unfortunately that's what it meant.
Thanks KHR garu. I am happy that you said those kind words. Indeed, I
did not mean to be inhuman.
For me, to provide help with fanfair is arrogance. To take it with
fanfair is humiliation.
Should we keep giving away fish to people to show how great we are or
is it better to quietly teach them to fish for themselves? Which is
the more human thing to do? What should have happened by now? I
called for compulsory teaching of all people to fish for themselves.
I think reservations as they stand today are the inhuman thing. They
are grave injustices to those receiving them. Calling some sections
as "low", and "backward" is the inhuman thing. Our policy makers have
successfully hoodwinked the victims into calling themselves as one or
more of these, keeping them there and juicing their emotions for 60
years. It has to stop now.
Those who are kneeling now should realise the truth, stand up and
claim "equal" status; not "low", "backward", "most backward",
or "other backward" status. It is inhuman to perpetually call fellow
men any of the above.
They could have done better without all these statuses if they were
provided equal opportunities. That's what I meant. I am not inhuman.
I am sorry if I sounded inhuman anywhere. It is a communication
failure on my part if I did.
Also, nowhere did I say that we should abolish reservations right
away. They cannot be stopped now, but if someday everyone knows to
fish, perhaps it will become possible.
Any which way one sees, they don't help in achieving long-term goals.
If we realise this, we will perhaps be more open to seaching for
other solutions; not until. If I can get people thinking differently,
I would consider my efforts here on this topic worthwhile. Right now,
I am clueless about this.
Again, I could be grossly wrong in all/any of my opinions, and could
have missed the whole idea, but I am willing to learn as always.
Thanks and best wishes
Satya
PS: You or someone did mention about the creamy layer somewhere. The
forum needs to discuss that sometime too.
Hanuma Kodavalla
Satya gAru,
I'm afraid I'll say something rude to you, but can't help arguing anyway.
:-)
"Just consider how terrible the day of your death will be.
Others will go on speaking, and you will not be able to argue back."
- Ram Mohun Roy's poem quoted in Sen's "The Argumentative Indian."
> I wish the theory can be disproved... It will be disproved only
> if the reservations stop at the degree level.
As I said earlier there's a significant grade difference between say SCs and
OCs when they enter the degree program. It's not surprising if that persists
when they graduate. Even so everyone graduating is a *qualified* doctor.
Now, your point is they shouldn't need reservation in the job if they were
qualified. I disagree. We do need adequate representation of them; but not
at the expense of requisite qualifications. Given the power structure and
the limited number of jobs, without job reservations, their representation
will be small. I have no doubt an OC doctor with just a passing grade has a
much better chance of succeeding than an SC doctor with the same grade!
Yes, it's inefficient to have a less commendable person for a position, but
that's the cost to pay to redeem social justice. (See Justice Reddy's
opinion in Indra Sawhney case.)
> For me, to provide help with fanfair is arrogance. To take it with
> fanfair is humiliation.
> Should we keep giving away fish to people to show how great we are
> or is it better to quietly teach them to fish for themselves?
For me, rights and constitution mean something. It's their *fundamental
right* to have adequate representation in the state through reservations.
It's not something we "give" to them. In Justice Chinnappa Reddy's words,
"it is not a concession or privilege extended to them, it is in the
recognition of their undoubted fundamental right..."
Those are not empty words and this is not our grandfather's century. Rights
matter. People who are annoyed by this should try to amend the constitution
and face the consequences!
> Equal education will ensure that help need not be provided ...
Yes, we need universal quality education. I wish we could make that a
fundamental right. May be then the Government will divert some money from
defense to education!
> I think reservations as they stand today are the inhuman thing.
> ... Also, nowhere did I say that we should abolish reservations
> right away.
Satya gAru, you should clarify your stand. An *inhuman* thing should be
stopped right away. There are no two ways about it.
> They are grave injustices to those receiving them. ...
You are saying a lot about them and their emotions. What are *their*
opinions? At least some of them should be capable of forming reasonable
opinions about such a grave injustice. Not everyone is so gullible or has a
political axe to grind.
> Calling some sections as "low", and "backward" is the inhuman thing.
Call with some other names then - may be their castes. Let us talk about
real divisions in the society and not quibble over the names of the
categories.
> Any which way one sees, they don't help in achieving long-term goals.
Your opinion is not shared by many prominent social activists - highly
educated and dedicated people. See the references I gave earlier.
> If I can get people thinking differently,
> I would consider my efforts here on this topic worthwhile.
I have no doubt stopping them without first making quality education
accessible to the lower sections will be disastrous. Luckily, despite all
the shortcomings, India is democratic and such a change will be rejected
outright. The elite knows this very well and that's why they have followed
other destructive measures.
In 2001 (?), I attended a talk in Santa Clara, CA, by the then "CEO" of
Andhra Pradesh, Narla Chandrababu Naidu. One of the questions from the
audience was when would reservations end. He promised ("మీకు నేను మనవి
చేసుకుంటున్నాను")
that the role of the Government was steadily being diminished and that's
how reservations would reduce if not disappear. Other than a handful, the
packed hall gave him a standing ovation!
Satya gAru, you decide whether the problem is reservations or education. If
it's the latter, then we can discuss what other states have done to achieve
better results than AP did.
> someone did mention about the creamy layer somewhere.
> The forum needs to discuss that sometime too.
If VS doesn't get to it, I may.
Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao
Satyanarayana Pamarty
wrote:
> Satya gAru,
>
> I'm afraid I'll say something rude to you, but can't help arguing
anyway.
> :-)
>
> "Just consider how terrible the day of your death will be.
> Others will go on speaking, and you will not be able to argue
back."
> - Ram Mohun Roy's poem quoted in Sen's "The Argumentative
Indian."
Dear KHR gaaru:
Thanks for your message.
At long last, we are talking of a book that we both possess. Not to
worry about the rude part. In your argument with me, keeping with
Asoka's tenets, you have been displaying extraordinary patience and a
special skill in seeing that the opponent is "duly honoured in every
way on all occasions". :-)
I am not an opponent; so, you can take liberties, actually!
Whatever we may not agree to, it appears that there is one thing we
agree upon. Good quality, compulsory education for all. Let's bury
the differences and focus on this topic. I've changed the thread to
read Education and Government Policy. Let's discuss this. That way,
may be I won't be stepping on your toes and testing your patience. We
will see some progress in the discussion. Game? :-)
With best wishes
Satya
Anil Kurnool
How can Govt. help the under privileged just by reservations?
What about the infrastructure to make sure that the needy get the benefits?
With all good intentions we still have child-labourers, bond-labourers
(silent and hush-hush affairs).
With all reservations, we still have bright deserving candidates from
backward communities unemployed and under-educated.
Regards,
Anil Kurnool
--
~~~~ www.anilprasad.com
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Hanuma Kodavalla
> I've changed the thread ... Let's discuss this. Game?
Satya gAru,
Thank you for saving the topic. And I promise I will not espouse sissy
stuff, or float "muscae volitantes" - whatever that means. (I certainly
would have failed MBBS even if they gave me many chances.)
You have an ambitious plan on how to improve our schools. You can start from
there, but talk to people like Vadrevu Chinaveerabhadrudu who have a lot of
experience. As far as I know, Bill and Melinda gates Foundation will not
sponsor something like that - they can give you software for the computers
in schools/libraries. It must be part of the Government policy and I don't
know how to make that happen. (May be Himachal Pradesh can give us some
clues.)
But being an argumentative Indian, I think there's value in discussing and
increasing the awareness. I would like to share my experience, however
limited. It pertains to a small area; there will be some సొంత డబ్బా since
after all I focus on my village but I hope some of this applies to other
areas in AP and other folks will share their experience.
Next few nights, I will write on each of the following topics:
0. My background
1. School environment
2. Teachers
3. English education
4. Private schools
5. Libraries
If it gets boring send me personal mail :-), otherwise please participate.
Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao
Anil Kurnool
<Quote>
As far as I know, Bill and Melinda gates Foundation will not
sponsor something like that - they can give you software for the computers
in schools/libraries.
</Quote>
May be we can rope-in Hemantha garu into this - as to the agenda of Gates
Foundation. He met Mrs.Gates in person to discuss the activities.
Hemantha Garu - Knock, Knock...
Regards,
Anil Kurnool
--
~~~~ www.anilprasad.com
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Hemantha Kumar
I wished I could duck. :-)) That is why I did not react to the earlier mails on the subject.
Yes, From what transpired in my meeting with Mrs. Gates, it was perceived that their foundation was seriously interested in two aspects. Health and Education. In India their concentration till now appears to be more on the health side. On the education side I do not have much information as to how much support has been extended or might be extended in future.
Best wishes
Hemantha Kumar
Anil Kurnool <akur...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
May be we can rope-in Hemantha garu into this - as to the agenda of Gates
Foundation. He met Mrs.Gates in person to discuss the activities.
Hemantha Garu - Knock, Knock...
---------------------------------
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