CF11-mod_jk source

[Seth Stone]

Hi all, does anyone know if Adobe is releasing the updated webserver connector source for CF11?  The old one for CF10 is here: https://helpx.adobe.com/coldfusion/kb/rhel-connector-configuration.html.  But in my testing the connector has clearly been updated with CF11.

Thanks,
Seth

[Charlie Arehart]

They have never come through on the suggestion that they would offer the source, despite the indications originally, so I would not bank on it, to be honest. They could prove us wrong.

But yes, there is indeed a new connector for 11. More than that, there are some known bugs in the 11 connector (some quite severe, especially with IIS but perhaps also Apache). But as you may know there have not been any CF11 “updates”  yet. So you may want to ask them directly for the updated dll, at cfin...@adobe.com. That really is one “l” there. You can read more in bugs like 3777189 and 3758172. The latest updated DLL covers those and some more things.

/charlie

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[Ricardo Parente]

Hi Charlie,

I'm very disappointed with Adobe. What a mess since they moved development out of the country.

Now CF 11 functions behave differently. A nightmare to upgrade legacy systems in CF9.

For example, now the function "replace(string,'')" cannot have an empty string in the second parameter, it throws an error. So I had to replace the "replace" function by "replaceFirst(string,'')".

The university gave up the idea of upgrading our CF9 servers, instead we are rolling out CF and moving to Java.

I'm really sad.

Best regards,

Ricardo

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[Tim Badolato]

Ricardo, did they evaluate or consider Railo before moving on to Java?

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[Ricardo Parente]

Hi Tim,

Yes, and I strongly recommended Railo, since I know personally Gert Franz and he was here some years ago doing a presentation.

The board of directors just think that Java is the way. My hands are tied.

There is a big pressure from the shareholders also to have a stronger technology.

We already hired this year 4 Java developers and I'm converting too, although I'll continue with Railo for my private projects.

Too bad !

Take care,

Ricardo

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[Charlie Arehart]

Yep, we hear that story rather often in the community.

I’ll only counter to say that I hear of far more people who have moved to CF10 or 11 (50% of my clients, I’d think, and that’s a sample size of a few hundred shops), so it’s not as much a “nightmare” to upgrade for “everyone”. Still, I realize you have hit some problems and I’m not diminishing them.

About the replace, that’s interesting. I mean, I’d wonder what an empty second arg would be intended for (it’s the value in the string to be sought for being replaced). I can only imagine it ever made sense when the first string (the string to be searched) was itself empty, otherwise the 2^nd arg would not match anything. But I gather you had some use case for it. I will say I don’t see any mention of this in the CF11 docs for the function (https://wikidocs.adobe.com/wiki/display/coldfusionen/Replace), so maybe it was not intentional. Either way, I’d file a bug if I were you to raise the issue. Perhaps even others have and there’s a fix.

But if you just feel it’s one more point of friction and you’re done with the fight, I understand. And some will move on for various reasons. It will be a shame to see you go, after the many resources you’ve contributed. Wishing you well, Ricardo. And maybe it will be a while. :-)

 

/charlie

[Sean Corfield]

On Sep 19, 2014, at 7:19 PM, Ricardo Parente <rpar...@cfdevelopers.net> wrote:
> I'm very disappointed with Adobe. What a mess since they moved development out of the country.

Development was mostly moved to India (Bangalore) by Macromedia and started back in CFMX7. Adobe didn't acquire Macromedia until CF8 was in pre-release and by that time only Product Management and Product Marketing were still US-based. But, yes, the India-based team don't seem to have a solid grasp on how CFML is used, although they are extremely good "enterprise" Java engineer.

> Now CF 11 functions behave differently. A nightmare to upgrade legacy systems in CF9.
> For example, now the function "replace(string,'')" cannot have an empty string in the second parameter, it throws an error. So I had to replace the "replace" function by "replaceFirst(string,'')".

Are you referring to the idiom used in FW/1 where s.replace(a,b) was used to invoke the _Java_ member function on the underlying String type, since that supported an empty search string? If so, yes, the introduction of string member functions in CF11 broke that - and Railo did the exact same thing. Railo have since fixed this (I've no idea whether Adobe also fixed it - I haven't used the Adobe product for over five years).

> The university gave up the idea of upgrading our CF9 servers, instead we are rolling out CF and moving to Java.

Well, it's a very "safe" choice and with modern frameworks like Play it can also be a very productive choice (although I suspect they'll do something much more "traditional").

I got asked by someone at The Strange Loop this week what I'd recommend for a new web app and, if the web app in question is an SPA with a rich front end, I really don't know what I'd recommend... except that it certainly wouldn't be CFML (if you only needed a fast, simple REST API).

If it was to create a traditional page-based HTML app, that's a harder choice since it really comes down to templating languages and CFML is pretty strong there but even Railo is pretty bloated when compared to other web systems and there are a lot of good templating systems out there now.

Sean Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/

"Perfection is the enemy of the good."
-- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)

[Tim]

Very interesting, always enjoy learning more about the history behind cf.

Can you clarify when you say railo is bloated compared to other languages? Which languages and can you give any examples?

Thanks!

On Sep 21, 2014, Sean Corfield wrote:

-- Sent with K-@ Mail - the evolution of emailing.

[Srikanth Shetti]

Hi Sean,

Interesting, can you throw some more  light on which cases you want to recommend CF and draw backs of CF.

Being a CF user group manager discussions regarding ColdFusion and its pros and cons is always a interesting subject for me.

But it really sad to hear the headlines regarding CF as a vanished technology.

When ever I here about CF as dying technology reminds me of Ben forta' presentation in CF summit 2013. Especially those two slides Coldfusion RIP and Coldfusion is back :).  But he did mention some important points though.

I worked on CF for more than 10 years and even worked for Adobe for around 3 years in Bangalore development center.  I see that issue in india is more on resource availability rather than technology it self.

We have very less resources available in India and those who are available are demanding way too much just to bank on the scarcity of CF resources.

Every project has its own budget because of non availability of good CF resources and high demanding of exisitng CF resources most of my clients migrated their applications to php or Microsoft .net.

I have already discussed with Kishore CF Marketing manager and asked him to implement ideas like subject in curriculum which was implemented in USA for few universities or any Adobe authorised training centers.

Adobe has to take quick action ASAP on this if not all I can say is CF RIP :(

[Ricardo Parente]

Hi Charlie,

Thanks for your thoughts.

I mistakenly said that the empty value was the second parameter, I wanted to say third, the value that you are replacing, meaning you want to take off whatever the second parameter is. Like: replace(thatVariable,"Miami", "").

Well, me personally, I'm not going away from ColdFusion. My LLC still has CF projects and I'll continue at least with CF9, CF10 and Railo, until I make sure CF11 is stable and no problems at all or if I really find a customer with CF11.

You know CF is an old love for me.

Again, thanks for your reply.

Ricardo

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[Sean Corfield]

On Sep 21, 2014, at 5:10 PM, Tim <t...@eiqinteractive.com> wrote:
> Can you clarify when you say railo is bloated compared to other languages? Which languages and can you give any examples?

Python 3.4.1 for Mac is a 22MB download. PHP 5.6.0 is a 17MB download. Scala 2.11.2 is a 26MB download (on top of Java). Clojure 1.7.0 is just under a 4MB download (on top of Java). Node.js is just under 6MB(!).

Railo is 58MB as a WAR download (on top of Java *and* a Servlet container of your choice) or 65MB as a self-contained "Express" download.

Now, part of this is because Railo (and ColdFusion) include all sorts of web-related stuff above and beyond the language, but even with that argument, the vast majority of web apps don't need all of that and if you combine any other base languages with just what you need to get a web app up and running, you're still going to be way under 60MB (esp. when you add into Railo any frameworks you might want to use for your web app to make a completely equal playing field).

In addition, pretty much every language (except CFML) has a nice, standardized way to manage dependencies and automatically add in any additional libraries you need, based on a simple set of declarations. By contrast, CFML's web-based administrator makes for a very manual process when setting up a server and doesn't easily translate across multiple tiers (dev, QA, production etc).

Railo (and ColdFusion) are really pretty clumsy, bloated tools compared to what else is out there these days.

[Larry C. Lyons]

If you genuinely think that Sean, then why are you here and commenting?

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[Denard Springle]

/me hands Larry a can opener. :P

[Larry C. Lyons]

maybe, but with Sean's criticism and comments about not recommending CF in general, well its a valid question.

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[Gavin Pickin]

Sean has been a key piece of the CF Community for a LONG time. 

He still contributes even though his company has moved on for the most part technology wise… but his insights can help us make it a better language, a better community, or help people decide which direction to take, if they want to, or need to.

Gavin Pickin

gpi...@gmail.com

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[Sean Corfield]

On Sep 22, 2014, at 10:41 AM, "Larry C. Lyons" <larry...@gmail.com> wrote:

> maybe, but with Sean's criticism and comments about not recommending CF in general, well its a valid question.

Oh, it's absolutely a valid question.

The bottom line is that despite my misgivings about CFML, I'd rather be here, at least trying to encourage open source efforts - and testing - to create high quality libraries and tools, than on the outside being accused of throwing rocks and "not helping".

But after being involved with three*** open source efforts in the CFML community now, I'm not sure what it will take to get CFML devs moving in this area - and I've tried both vinegar and honey, as well as collaborating, praising, jibing, and cajoling :)

***The 4CFFoundation, The OpenCFML Foundation, and now Team CF Advance.

As Team CF Advance has set up repos, for a variety of projects large and small, I've added unit testing infrastructure to many of them so the barrier to entry is small. We've asked for folks to step up and help with code, documentation, testing... and basically *crickets*...

Folks here who say "PHP only succeeded because of WordPress or {insert other open source tool here}" seem to believe that CFML would be successful if it just had a few outstanding open source projects... but also seem to be happy to let others do that work (and complain when it doesn't happen).

Over the years, I've thrown my weight behind Fusebox, Mach-II, Model-Glue, ColdSpring, and since 2009 I've worked tirelessly on FW/1 (recently producing a whole new blog and documentation site for the upcoming 3.0 release). I've advocated for a number of other frameworks including unit testing frameworks. I'm big on unit testing and test-driven development, if you hadn't noticed :)

I've published coding standards, I've talked at a lot of conferences about improving software processes, about open source, about upping your game in CFML. I've also mentored a lot of folks in private, over IM, or occasionally face-to-face.

I've also attended a lot of non-CFML conferences and defended CFML to devs who disparage it based on outdated knowledge, educating them about the open source options in the CFML world.

So after a solid decade or so of doing all that, I think I have the right to be honest about CFML's problems and explain why it might not be the best choice for all projects? :)

[John M Bliss]

[slow clap]

Thank you for all you do, Sean!

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[Sean Corfield]

On Sep 21, 2014, at 5:56 PM, Srikanth Shetti <srika...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Interesting, can you throw some more light on which cases you want to recommend CF and draw backs of CF.

In response to Tim, I mentioned download size which is indicative of language bloat. Adobe's download is insanely large. I also mentioned the lack of a package / dependency manager which is common in every other language. Yes, CommandBox can address that somewhat but here we are in 2014 and just getting a package manager for the first time - in a community where there is so little open source work being done, so there is a much smaller pool of packages available to manage (and, yes, it's a chicken and egg situation).

Increasingly, modern web apps are rich JS-based clients with slim REST APIs on the backend.

By contrast, CFML is a juggernaut that is a pain for most IT departments to manage (the #1 complaint I hear from companies is that their sysadmin folks hate dealing with ColdFusion), and it also seems to have a pretty poor security record lately. On top of that, the native REST implementation in CFML is *horrific*: arcane, verbose, buggy... it has "enterprise Java" stamped all over it and that's not what web shops want.

That's why, as a pure backend technology, I could never recommend CFML to a company that wasn't already using it.

For a more traditional web app, generating HTML pages on the server, and doing nearly all the work on the server, CFML still has some things to recommend it. The tag-based templating language is very powerful and was designed to mesh well with HTML (and be easy to learn). The dynamic OO scripting language is reasonable for writing controllers and the application model. But only reasonable, not great. Because of the way CFML has evolved over the decades, it shows a lack of consistent design, and a lot of quirks and surprising / buggy behaviors. CFML has only had closures for a (relatively) short while and, as we all know, even the basic OO style of development is not as widespread as we might like in the CFML community, let alone the FP (Functional Programming) style that is becoming increasingly important these days across so many languages.

CFML doesn't lend itself to building and combining libraries in any meaningful way - the lack of a package manager again - so "reuse" of libraries is done through copying source code all over the place, and deployment is also typically done as source code (note that even for other languages that encourage source deployment, you can generally deploy just your source and pull in libraries automatically without having to explicitly copy those around and deploy them as well).

And then there's the issue of hiring good CFML developers. It's becoming almost impossible. There are lots of "five taggers" still around, many of whom have years - even decades - of experience, but no familiarity with version control, automated testing, continuous integration, build systems, automated deployment etc... which are all mainstays of web application development in other communities, and increasingly demanded by the few good/improving CFML shops still around. CFML's legacy is spaghetti code created by self-taught non-programmers. That's both a truism (in some part) and the perception other language communities have of us.

So, not only is it hard to find good CFML developers, the number of developers is decreasing, particularly in the advanced developer segment. Advanced CFML developers outgrew the language and outgrew the community and wanted better jobs in better companies using more interesting technology that evolves faster. At the low end, no one is joining the CFML community - no one chooses to learn CFML as the first step of their career. Many CFML shops say they hire (non-CFML) web developers and cross-train them - but most good developers won't want to dead-end their career doing that and will want to migrate a CFML shop to something more "modern" so it's hard to keep such developers unless your company makes that move away from CFML.

> Being a CF user group manager discussions regarding ColdFusion and its pros and cons is always a interesting subject for me.

I'm sure you've seen a decline in attendance too? Every CFUG I know has seen attendance drop, has decided to meet less frequently, and/or has merged with another group / become a general web dev user group. BACFUG used to attract 100 people every month. These days, it doesn't meet every month, and it gets a handful of attendees - unless the topic is JavaScript or something non-CFML related.

> But it really sad to hear the headlines regarding CF as a vanished technology.

All technologies go through a lifecycle, especially proprietary technologies. I think it's fair to say CFML has been in a steady decline since at least the beginning of 2009 - based on any metric you can find. That means it had a steady 15 year growth and you can expect a steady decline so we have about another decade ahead before you can truly say it's dead / vanished. 30 years is a good span for any technology.

> Every project has its own budget because of non availability of good CF resources and high demanding of exisitng CF resources most of my clients migrated their applications to php or Microsoft .net.

After I stepped down from running Fusebox, Adam Haskell took it over, then his career moved him to other technologies. Mach-II was EOL'd because Matt Woodward and Peter J. Farrell both went to Python, and Kurt Wiersma went to .NET. Joe RInehart, creator of Model-Glue, went to Groovy - along with a host of well-known names from the CFML community (Scott Stroz, Marc Esher, Todd Sharp, Brian Kotek... who all went to work at the same place as Joe). I've gone to Clojure (but I'm still maintaining FW/1 for the foreseeable future!). At The Strange Loop conference this week, I ran into ex-CFMLers Mark Mandel (Go and Clojure), Barney Boisvert (Groovy), Justin McLean, Ezra Parker (Go etc). The most prominent and prolific CFML blogger lately has been Adam Cameron (who would ever have seen _that_ coming?) and his company just started the switch to PHP.

The ##coldfusion IRC channel on freenode.net is mostly populated by ex-CFMLers these days, just hanging out together for the camaraderie.

The best thing about CFML has always been its community and that's certainly the thing I would miss most if I left completely.

> Adobe has to take quick action ASAP on this if not all I can say is CF RIP :(

I don't know if there's anything they can do to save CFML. I think they can certainly do things that will prolong its decline and will help developers stay employed - mostly around the perception of CFML and marketing it better. I think at this point, the decline has gone too far (and, besides, is just a natural part of the software lifecycle) for there to ever be any sort of renaissance.

The best thing CFML developers can do is start sharing software as open source and working together to make better solutions to encourage companies to stick with CFML instead of switching to another tech with a better story in open source...

The other thing CFML developers need to do is learn other languages (and I've been saying that for a very long time - learning other languages makes you a better developer).

[Larry C. Lyons]

Fair enough thank you Sean.

[Srikanth Shetti]

Thanks Sean, I agree with each and every point you mentioned  and really like to thank you  for  your sumptuous contribution to CF community.

Thanks,

-Sri

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Thanks,
-Sri

[Chris Geirman]

Thanks for that, Sean! Wise words, and a great suggestion. We should all learn other languages. Do you have any recommendations? I'm eyeing Rails & Python myself.

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[Denard Springle]

I've migrated over to Node, using primarily the MEAN.js stack. If you have any JavaScript (pref. asynchronous) experience, it's a great stack to work with and was an easy migration for me from CFML.

-- Denny

[Mike Brunt]

Let us not all get too overtaken by what seems the cool things to do.  Last years CF Conference in Las Vegas could have been much bigger but they could not find a bigger venue in time.  I am standing 100% behind ColdFusion and of course Railo, where my clients use it.  Adobe is the first "owner" of ColdFusion since Allaire to fund a dedicated conference, I applaud them for that.  And of course, were it not for Sean Corfield and his then team at Macromedia CF 6.0 might have driven a plethora of nails into the ever cited ColdFusion coffin.  Methinks its death is greatly exaggerated.

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[Sean Corfield]

On Sep 22, 2014, at 12:57 PM, Chris Geirman <ch...@geirman.com> wrote:

Thanks for that, Sean! Wise words, and a great suggestion. We should all learn other languages. Do you have any recommendations? I'm eyeing Rails & Python myself.

Broadly speaking, there are two reasons for learning other languages:

* To improve your employability
* To improve your programming skills

Doing the latter will help with the former, but the latter is better served by learning "unusual" languages that make you think differently, giving you a broader set of perspectives on solving problems. For most people, the former is about learning "popular" languages.

Since we're starting from CFML, it's fair (if unfortunate) to say that learning almost _any_ other language will improve your employability. Ruby/Rails and Python/Django are both solid choices there in the web space (and Python in particular can be good for sysadmin stuff too).

Other "highly employable" (but dull) languages include Java, C#, JavaScript (certainly for the front end, if not for Node.js). Quite a few CFML devs have found Groovy to be an enjoyable language to learn - but it doesn't really teach you a whole lot of new stuff (it's very approachable for CFML devs) and it's not all that widely used (maybe a few million developers worldwide, if that?).

My basic recommendation would be to buy both of these books and work through all the exercises:

* https://pragprog.com/book/btlang/seven-languages-in-seven-weeks
* https://pragprog.com/book/7lang/seven-more-languages-in-seven-weeks

These will teach you the basics of over a dozen languages which cover wildly different approaches to problem solving. It'll also give you a good feel for whether you'd like to pursue a particular style of language in more depth.

To save you the trouble of looking them up, they cover:

* Clojure, Haskell, Io, Prolog, Scala, Erlang, and Ruby
* Lua, Factor, Elixir, Elm, Julia, MiniKanren, and Idris

I've completed book one and I've just finished Elm in book two. It's a lot of fun playing with all these new languages!

If you're up to it, also buy this book:

* https://pragprog.com/book/7web/seven-web-frameworks-in-seven-weeks

This covers:

* Sinatra (Ruby), CanJS (JS), AngularJS (JS), Ring (Clojure), Webmachine (Erlang), Yesod (Haskell), Immutant (Clojure)

I also have:

* https://pragprog.com/book/rwdata/seven-databases-in-seven-weeks

This covers:

* Redis, Neo4J, CouchDB, MongoDB, HBase, Riak, and Postgres

And I'm tempted by this one as well:

* https://pragprog.com/book/pb7con/seven-concurrency-models-in-seven-weeks

...although I already have this related PragProg book:

* https://pragprog.com/book/vspcon/programming-concurrency-on-the-jvm

I have around 150 technical titles in ebook form across multiple publishers, and around 30 titles in print form. I left a large number of tech books behind in England when I moved here (although I brought a few classics with me).

[Chris Geirman]

Again, thanks for the sage advice and especially for the very specific book recommendations. I'm off to get the first in the series now :)

Chris

[Seth Stone]

I wanted to update the group on this.  I did receive the CF11 connector source from Adobe Support and have successfully build mod_jk on my RHEL 5.11 box with Apache 2.2.3.  I believe they will release this publicly eventually.

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[Denard Springle]

Thanks for the update Seth, and glad you got it worked out!

-- Denny

[Charlie Arehart]

Yes, very interesting indeed. Thanks for sharing. Perhaps others will soon avail themselves of the opportunity, if/when they can.

/charlie

 

From: team-cf...@googlegroups.com [mailto:team-cf...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Denard Springle
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:15 PM
To: team-cf...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: CF11-mod_jk source

 

Thanks for the update Seth, and glad you got it worked out!

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