Towards a global learning commons

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botheredbybees

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Dec 10, 2007, 5:18:56 PM12/10/07
to Teach and Learn Online
A little piece of thought food for you. It's an article in the
Educational Technology Magazine entitled "Towards a Global Learning
Commons: ccLearn", discussing the goals and problems facing open
educational resources.

Link on http://learn.creativecommons.org/media/

From the intro:

"Who loves to share materials and tips more than
teachers or students? Who has not developed a course
or a lesson by customizing something from a colleague's
files, or learned by pooling knowledge with
one's fellow students? In which area--software, encyclopedias,
or education--are the moral and practical
impulses towards free access the strongest? Unlike the
volunteer encyclopedist, the teacher has to do much of
this work anyway. Why not share it? Unlike the world
of programming, the "end user," or student, is routinely
required to produce material in the form of assignments
that could actually be added back into the network.
The arguments are overwhelming: open learning will
come first--open encyclopedias and open software
later, if at all.

This prediction is logical, intuitive...and wrong.
Wikipedia and open source software are established
realities in our networked world. Open Educational
Resources (OER) have made great strides over the last
ten years, but they have not yet reached the
prominence and sophistication described above. Why?
This article is an attempt to offer some partial
answers to that question. It examines the reasons why
open education is an exciting idea, describes some of
its greatest successes to date, outlines the problems in
creating a true global learning commons, and offers
some possible solutions."

Leigh Blackall

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Dec 11, 2007, 2:38:47 AM12/11/07
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This is without a doubt one of the best articles I have read on Open Educational Resources. You've sent it through with good timing Peter, as I'm less than impressed with the recent document that seems to be getting a bit of press lately: The Cape Town Declaration. This CCLearn article covers all the aspects of concern that I am experiencing in our effort to develop OER and practices at Otago. I'm quite inspired now to link in more closely with CCLearn. Thanks for sending it. Off to blog about it.

Rasporich

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Dec 11, 2007, 6:17:31 PM12/11/07
to Teach and Learn Online
This is my first post, so hello everyone.

Excellent article, indeed.It is good to see that they are looking
closely at "interoperability" because this is what I think
contributes to the "islands" of content in an institutional context.
Just an idea - for me what is missing in all of these repositories and
open learning sites is some kind of overarching narrative structure
within which they can be situated. I hope to see more focus on the
"learner as protagonist" (something I've recently come up with,
inspired by Schank, Jonassen, and Aldrich) which provides a way to
structure new knowledge in a familiar narrative format.

Regards,
Stefan
On Dec 11, 8:38 pm, "Leigh Blackall" <leighblack...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is without a doubt one of the best articles I have read on Open
> Educational Resources. You've sent it through with good timing Peter, as I'm
> less than impressed with the recent document that seems to be getting a bit
> of press lately: The Cape Town Declaration. This CCLearn article covers all
> the aspects of concern that I am experiencing in our effort to develop OER
> and practices at Otago. I'm quite inspired now to link in more closely with
> CCLearn. Thanks for sending it. Off to blog about it.
>
> On Dec 11, 2007 11:18 AM, botheredbybees <botheredbyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > A little piece of thought food for you. It's an article in the
> > Educational Technology Magazine entitled "Towards a Global Learning
> > Commons: ccLearn", discussing the goals and problems facing open
> > educational resources.
>
> > Link onhttp://learn.creativecommons.org/media/
> --
> --
> Leigh Blackall
> +64(0)21736539
> skype - leigh_blackall
> SL - Leroy Goalposthttp://learnonline.wordpress.com

peter allen

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Dec 11, 2007, 6:51:58 PM12/11/07
to teachAndL...@googlegroups.com
When reading this thread  - I was wondering " What  is the Cape Town declaration ?" -   Downes  criticizes it here:



Leo Wong

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Dec 11, 2007, 10:14:54 PM12/11/07
to teachAndL...@googlegroups.com
Dear Everyone, as I posted here before I need some advices on building a Flexible Learning room at 7th floor here at my local Library at China , we need your suggestion on this here are my questions
You can go to my blog post to leave your comments ,Alex have done that but I want to hear more thank you !!!http://leolaoshi.yo2.cn/2007/12/10/advicesfor7thfloorneeded/

Hi I don't know why I am here ,but it is my first time to post so hello everyone ,

I am from China working at Univerisity , is there anyone here also from China , I have a question need to ask for suggestions or advises

I am helping with a school library here we want to build a room at 7th floor so that the we can involve more teacher and students to learen and use more things about digital sources things like web2.0 stuff , also trying to build something like library 2.0 stuff here is my liste of question thank you for have a look

1 in your country or organsiation you work with , do you have similar things and how do you work out this ?
2 It is built in the library but not only to improve the Library stuff but more for the whole univerisity teachers and students , so don't think it is a pure library thing it is more complicated ,and how can I make people realised this is something good for thme and attact them to use our services ?
.
3 of course what kinda of services we can provide based on what we have .
4 what we have ? well you know China is many useful sites are being blocked but I think we can use some ,like wikis and blogs let me know what are services you recommend ?
5 How can I design the room to make it look nicer and more interactive and more web2.0?
6 What are things we need to buy , money is not a big problems as long as it is useful
3 Who are the people we need to hire or using volunteer people is better idea ?
4 do we need a separte website for this room ? if yes what is your idea ?
5 What are learning programs we can use or even course we can use learning 2.0 ?

4 How can we encourage the contribution From&nbsp;our readers and students and teacher here ? like gerneating the collective intelligence ?
5 what this room to do with informal learning ?
6 what is connection of internet would be ? wireless ? or ?
.
7 How can we manage the whole room ? make it organised and safe place to use .
8 what are the activities we can organise in this place ?
9 what are the cross culture program we can do withother schools in other countries ?

thank you in advance
Leo
we are going to finish this term I am going to ask my students to do a photocast at http://leolaoshi.haokanbu.com( a very China unique Photo blog service ) for their final Media project in my course .so feel free to come over and even leave comments to encourage them , again you have to use Google translate or something else ?
Warm Regards from China
Blog :http://leolaoshi.yo2.cn
在2007-12-12,Rasporich <srasp...@gmail.com> 写道:
>This is my first post, so hello everyone.
>
>Excellent article, indeed.It is good to see that they are looking
>closely at "interoperability" because this is what I think
>contributes to the "islands" of content in an institutional context.
>Just an idea - for me what is missing in all of these repositories and
>open learning sites is some kind of overarching narrative structure
>within which they can be situated. I hope to see more focus on the
>"learner as protagonist" (something I've recently come up with,
>inspired by Schank, Jonassen, and Aldrich) which provides a way to
>structure new knowledge in a familiar narrative format.
>
>Regards,
>Stefan
>On Dec 11, 8:38 pm, "Leigh Blackall" &lt;leighblack...@gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>&gt; This is without a doubt one of the best articles I have read on Open
>&gt; Educational Resources. You've sent it through with good timing Peter, as I'm
>&gt; less than impressed with the recent document that seems to be getting a bit
>&gt; of press lately: The Cape Town Declaration. This CCLearn article covers all
>&gt; the aspects of concern that I am experiencing in our effort to develop OER
>&gt; and practices at Otago. I'm quite inspired now to link in more closely with
>&gt; CCLearn. Thanks for sending it. Off to blog about it.
>&gt;
>&gt; On Dec 11, 2007 11:18 AM, botheredbybees &lt;botheredbyb...@gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>&gt;
>&gt;
>&gt;
>&gt;
>&gt;
>&gt; &gt; A little piece of thought food for you. It's an article in the
>&gt; &gt; Educational Technology Magazine entitled "Towards a Global Learning
>&gt; &gt; Commons: ccLearn", discussing the goals and problems facing open
>&gt; &gt; educational resources.
>&gt;
>&gt; &gt; Link onhttp://learn.creativecommons.org/media/
>&gt;
>&gt; &gt; From the intro:
>&gt;
>&gt; &gt; "Who loves to share materials and tips more than
>&gt; &gt; teachers or students? Who has not developed a course
>&gt; &gt; or a lesson by customizing something from a colleague's
>&gt; &gt; files, or learned by pooling knowledge with
>&gt; &gt; one's fellow students? In which area--software, encyclopedias,
>&gt; &gt; or education--are the moral and practical
>&gt; &gt; impulses towards free access the strongest? Unlike the
>&gt; &gt; volunteer encyclopedist, the teacher has to do much of
>&gt; &gt; this work anyway. Why not share it? Unlike the world
>&gt; &gt; of programming, the "end user," or student, is routinely
>&gt; &gt; required to produce material in the form of assignments
>&gt; &gt; that could actually be added back into the network.
>&gt; &gt; The arguments are overwhelming: open learning will
>&gt; &gt; come first--open encyclopedias and open software
>&gt; &gt; later, if at all.
>&gt;
>&gt; &gt; This prediction is logical, intuitive...and wrong.
>&gt; &gt; Wikipedia and open source software are established
>&gt; &gt; realities in our networked world. Open Educational
>&gt; &gt; Resources (OER) have made great strides over the last
>&gt; &gt; ten years, but they have not yet reached the
>&gt; &gt; prominence and sophistication described above. Why?
>&gt; &gt; This article is an attempt to offer some partial
>&gt; &gt; answers to that question. It examines the reasons why
>&gt; &gt; open education is an exciting idea, describes some of
>&gt; &gt; its greatest successes to date, outlines the problems in
>&gt; &gt; creating a true global learning commons, and offers
>&gt; &gt; some possible solutions."
>&gt;
>&gt; --
>&gt; --
>&gt; Leigh Blackall
>&gt; +64(0)21736539
>&gt; skype - leigh_blackall
>&gt; SL - Leroy Goalposthttp://learnonline.wordpress.com
>
>
>

Leo Wong

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Dec 11, 2007, 10:50:58 PM12/11/07
to teachAndL...@googlegroups.com
sorry I forgot to change the name
~----~------~----~------~--~---

Leigh Blackall

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Dec 12, 2007, 5:44:10 AM12/12/07
to teachAndL...@googlegroups.com
Hello Stefan,

Could you expand on what you mean by "learner as protagonist" and include links to the references you site (just to make it easier for me). Something tells me this is an idea to follow up on. Nice to hear from you :)


Rasporich

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Dec 12, 2007, 5:21:31 PM12/12/07
to Teach and Learn Online
Hi Leigh,

Sure - essentially the learner as protagonist mimics the journey of
the protagonist in dramatic structures, where a "learning quest" is
initiated by the presentation of a dramatic problem (Dethridge). This
initial incident perturbs the static world of the learner/protagonist
and usually presents an ill-structured (Jonassen) problem which is
resolved in the climax after a journey involving several obstacles.
Then the initial static "set-up" is reframed with the new knowledge
acquired over the journey, highlighting how the learner/protagonist
has transformed as a result of this journey. And all of this takes
place in a narrative format, which is what Schank argues we are hard-
wired for. (My own experience as an actor doing mask work has led me
to believe that this narrative format has existed in humans even prior
to the development of language, as we communicate through facial
expression, tone, and gesture to tell the story of what particular
cave to avoid.) In my paper there is also a reference to how we use
narrative as a way to structure new and unfamiliar information, as
well as recalling information at a later time.

If anyone is interested, I can go into the CMS I envision which is
based on "fractal narrative pedagogy" about the narrative format being
repeated up and down the scale, from presentation of content in case
study format to the learner's self-reflections using narrative
formats. Why not take advantage of this innate ability to its
fullest?

If you like, I can share my paper about this with you. :)

Cheers,
Stefan

Aristotle - "The Poetics"

Dr. Lisa Dethridge, "Writing Your Screenplay"

Schank's book - http://cogweb.ucla.edu/Abstracts/Schank_90.html

Aldrich's book - "Learning By Doing"

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:gEXD71T0R9YJ:cherylmorris.com/writing/Review_Learning_by_Doing.pdf+aldrich+learning+by+doing&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&client=safari


Jonassen, from Classic Writings on Instructional Technologies:
Objectivism vs. Consctructivism

On Dec 12, 11:44 pm, "Leigh Blackall" <leighblack...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello Stefan,
>
> Could you expand on what you mean by "learner as protagonist" and include
> links to the references you site (just to make it easier for me). Something
> tells me this is an idea to follow up on. Nice to hear from you :)
>

Derek Chirnside

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Dec 12, 2007, 9:07:30 PM12/12/07
to teachAndL...@googlegroups.com
"If anyone is interested, I can go into the CMS I envision which is
based on "fractal narrative pedagogy" about the narrative format being
repeated up and down the scale, from presentation of content in case
study format to the learner's self-reflections using narrative
formats.  Why not take advantage of this innate ability to its
fullest?

If you like, I can share my paper about this with you. :)

Cheers,
Stefan"

Cool Stefan.
You are juxtaposing a few things I had not put together.
This question occurs to me:
Can Facebook do this for you?

-Derek


Derek Chirnside

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Dec 12, 2007, 9:08:10 PM12/12/07
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PS - Yes

Rasporich

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Dec 13, 2007, 12:35:51 AM12/13/07
to Teach and Learn Online
So, how does Facebook do this? Is there a specific module?

One thing I grapple with some sites like Facebook and Second Life and
when I think of pitching an idea to a school board. The questions
regarding student safety come up. But that is another thing...

On Dec 13, 3:08 pm, "Derek Chirnside" <derek.chirns...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Leigh Blackall

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Dec 13, 2007, 4:30:29 AM12/13/07
to teachAndL...@googlegroups.com
Hi Stefan,

Yes, I would be interested too. I wonder if you would be willing to speak to us about it on a web conference? Perhaps you could give us a 10 minute lecture followed by a discussion? I can provide the web conference space if you're willing.. we could record the presentation and audio and add it with any text you have.. I think I would gain a lot more understanding through conversation around these ideas.. especially If I have read your paper before we meet

Rasporich

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Dec 13, 2007, 5:27:12 PM12/13/07
to Teach and Learn Online
Sure,

How about some time this weekend? Sunday would be a good day for me.
I'll post my paper here..

http://www.ucalgary.ca/~sderaspo/Learner as Protagonist and Athans no
pics.doc


On Dec 13, 10:30 pm, "Leigh Blackall" <leighblack...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Stefan,
>
> Yes, I would be interested too. I wonder if you would be willing to speak to
> us about it on a web conference? Perhaps you could give us a 10 minute
> lecture followed by a discussion? I can provide the web conference space if
> you're willing.. we could record the presentation and audio and add it with
> any text you have.. I think I would gain a lot more understanding through
> conversation around these ideas.. especially If I have read your paper
> before we meet
>

Rasporich

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Dec 13, 2007, 5:30:30 PM12/13/07
to Teach and Learn Online
I'll try that agaain...

http://www.ucalgary.ca/~sderaspo/Learner%20as%20Protagonist%20and%20Athans%20no%20pics.doc


On Dec 14, 11:27 am, Rasporich <sraspor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sure,
>
> How about some time this weekend? Sunday would be a good day for me.
> I'll post my paper here..
>
> http://www.ucalgary.ca/~sderaspo/Learneras Protagonist and Athans no

botheredbybees

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Dec 13, 2007, 8:30:04 PM12/13/07
to Teach and Learn Online
Hey Rasporich, great paper.

I've been thinking for a while that it would be useful to structure
subjects a bit like the hero's journey:

This fundamental structure contains a number of stages:

1. A call to adventure, which the hero has to accept or decline
2. A road of trials, regarding which the hero succeeds or fails
3. Achieving the goal or "boon", which often results in important
self-knowledge
4. A return to the ordinary world, again as to which the hero can
succeed or fail
5. Applying the boon, in which what the hero has gained can be used
to improve the world

(from the wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heros_journey
)

So far that's just been idle musing, but you've gone so much further.
I especially liked the way you've mapped the seven elements of a
screenplay plot to a learning contract; and the four p's: protagonist,
premise, dramatic problem, and plot made a nice framework for the body
of your paper.

One small objection, you state (accurately IMO) that if students are
given choices about how their learning needs are going to be met,
their engagement and expectation of success will increase. You then go
on to state that 'The level of prescription of choice does not need to
be great, for example an educator may say "you have the choice of
creating a 5 page collage-essay OR creating a 5 page collage-essay
with a smile,"' - which didn't sit well with me. It's been well
documented in game design that players must feel their choices are
both interesting and that the choices they make have a direct
influence on the final outcome, otherwise they rapidly lose interest
in the game. I see no reason why this should be any less so in a
learning environment - the choices must be relevant and interesting.

I'm keen to hear more about protagonist learning, and wouldn't mind
dropping in on any planned web conference (please don't make it in 2L
though, which lags like a dog out here in the broadband-poor
boondocks :) . Thanks again for sharing this thought provoking
resource.

On Dec 14, 9:30 am, Rasporich <sraspor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'll try that agaain...
>
> http://www.ucalgary.ca/~sderaspo/Learner%20as%20Protagonist%20and%20A...
>

Leigh Blackall

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Dec 13, 2007, 10:51:53 PM12/13/07
to teachAndL...@googlegroups.com
Ok, great and thanks for the part review Shaggy.

Rasporich, are you based in Calgary? If so then we have some time coordination to do as Shaggy is in Australia and I am in NZ. We are both +12 and +13 hours on UTC... so for your Sunday evening would be our Monday morning... so, where are you?

>



Rasporich

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Dec 14, 2007, 3:30:29 PM12/14/07
to Teach and Learn Online
Hey Shaggy,

Fantastic feedback! I totally agree with the choices comment - they
all need to be equally stimulating and exciting. I think that comment
arose out of my experiences dealing with children using "democratic
discipline" in the classroom where I always offered them a choice vs.
tell them what to do. I have found that technique very powerful in
empowering the individual by not giving them a wall to push up
against.

The hero's journey is very interesting too, and Dethridge quotes
Christopher Vogler who offers a 12-step storytelling progress based on
that very approach - his book is next on my list.

As an aside, I think Dr. Dethridge teaches at RMIT in Melbourne, and
have always wanted to make a connnection with her.

Btw, Leigh, I'm based in Christchurch now and just visited you last
week in Dunedin. ;) So the time zone is no problem.

Stefan

On Dec 14, 4:51 pm, "Leigh Blackall" <leighblack...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok, great and thanks for the part review Shaggy.
>
> Rasporich, are you based in Calgary? If so then we have some time
> coordination to do as Shaggy is in Australia and I am in NZ. We are both +12
> and +13 hours on UTC... so for your Sunday evening would be our Monday
> morning... so, where are you?
>
> > >http://www.ucalgary.ca/~sderaspo/Learner%20as%20Protagonist%20and%20A.<http://www.ucalgary.ca/%7Esderaspo/Learner%20as%20Protagonist%20and%20A.>

Leigh Blackall

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Dec 14, 2007, 8:57:58 PM12/14/07
to teachAndL...@googlegroups.com
Your based in Christchurch! And we've met!? Stefan.. stefan.. my memory has always been crappy.. can you link me to a picture?

Ok then.. Sunday it is! I have set up a room in our Elluminate for 6pm NZST, which is 4pm Eastern Australia, and 5am UTC. Here's the link to the meeting. Let me know if another time is better.

If you haven't run Elluminate recently, click that link about 20 minutes before the meeting time to allow for downloads. If the meeting space fails us, I'll set up a Skypecast and send the link through this email forum.

Leigh Blackall

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Dec 15, 2007, 2:56:30 PM12/15/07
to teachAndL...@googlegroups.com
Reading your paper now.. I think I remember now :) its the Christchurch bit that threw me.. you're still on tour then Stefan? Hope you can make it to this arvos meeting.. I'm off on a horse treck this morning, will be back by mid afternoon.

Leo Wong

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Dec 16, 2007, 8:14:09 AM12/16/07
to teachAndL...@googlegroups.com
I wanted them to use Youtube ,but youtube is really not very userfriendly , only 10 mins and only 100 M can be uploaded so they choose tudou ( means potato in English )
here is adress check it out :
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/X5_VcgA9HgE/?from=uploaded
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/d5Y6uC0iePw/?from=uploaded
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/_fIuyDm2Mlw/?from=uploaded
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/S7Pq3alzZe8/?from=uploaded

The young teacher in that asked my student not to upload the video to the internet due to something happen about one month ago , a teacher from Beijing , a group of students were beating a old teacher in the class and was uoloaded to the internet ,became a huge things in China .

Let me know if you watch this
I also embed one in my blog so you can also watch here
http://leolaoshi.yo2.cn/2007/12/16/mystudentvideoontudou/

Ok with best regards from Leo
http://leolaoshi.yo2.cn





在2007-12-16,"Leigh Blackall" <leighb...@gmail.com> 写道:
>Reading your paper now.. I think I remember now :) its the Christchurch bit that threw me.. you're still on tour then Stefan? Hope you can make it to this arvos meeting.. I'm off on a horse treck this morning, will be back by mid afternoon.
>On Dec 15, 2007 2:57 PM, Leigh Blackall &lt;leighb...@gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>Your based in Christchurch! And we've met!? Stefan.. stefan.. my memory has always been crappy.. can you link me to a picture?Ok then.. Sunday it is! I have set up a room in our Elluminate for 6pm NZST, which is 4pm Eastern Australia, and 5am UTC. Here's the link to the meeting. Let me know if another time is better.If you haven't run Elluminate recently, click that link about 20 minutes before the meeting time to allow for downloads. If the meeting space fails us, I'll set up a Skypecast and send the link through this email forum.
>
>
>
>On Dec 15, 2007 9:30 AM, Rasporich &lt;srasp...@gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>Hey Shaggy,Fantastic feedback! I totally agree with the choices comment - theyall need to be equally stimulating and exciting. I think that commentarose out of my experiences dealing with children using "democratic discipline" in the classroom where I always offered them a choice vs.tell them what to do. I have found that technique very powerful inempowering the individual by not giving them a wall to push upagainst. The hero's journey is very interesting too, and Dethridge quotesChristopher Vogler who offers a 12-step storytelling progress based onthat very approach - his book is next on my list.As an aside, I think Dr. Dethridge teaches at RMIT in Melbourne, and have always wanted to make a connnection with her.Btw, Leigh, I'm based in Christchurch now and just visited you lastweek in Dunedin. ;) So the time zone is no problem.Stefan
>On Dec 14, 4:51 pm, "Leigh Blackall" &lt;leighblack...@gmail.com&gt; wrote:&gt; Ok, great and thanks for the part review Shaggy.&gt;&gt; Rasporich, are you based in Calgary? If so then we have some time &gt; coordination to do as Shaggy is in Australia and I am in NZ. We are both +12&gt; and +13 hours on UTC... so for your Sunday evening would be our Monday&gt; morning... so, where are you?&gt;
>
>
>&gt; On Dec 14, 2007 2:30 PM, botheredbybees &lt;botheredbyb...@gmail.com&gt; wrote:&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; Hey Rasporich, great paper. &gt;&gt; &gt; I've been thinking for a while that it would be useful to structure&gt; &gt; subjects a bit like the hero's journey:&gt;&gt; &gt; This fundamental structure contains a number of stages: &gt;&gt; &gt; 1. A call to adventure, which the hero has to accept or decline&gt; &gt; 2. A road of trials, regarding which the hero succeeds or fails&gt; &gt; 3. Achieving the goal or "boon", which often results in important &gt; &gt; self-knowledge&gt; &gt; 4. A return to the ordinary world, again as to which the hero can&gt; &gt; succeed or fail&gt; &gt; 5. Applying the boon, in which what the hero has gained can be used &gt; &gt; to improve the world&gt;&gt; &gt; (from the wikipedia article:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heros_journey&gt; &gt; )&gt; &gt; &gt; So far that's just been idle musing, but you've gone so much further.&gt; &gt; I especially liked the way you've mapped the seven elements of a&gt; &gt; screenplay plot to a learning contract; and the four p's: protagonist, &gt; &gt; premise, dramatic problem, and plot made a nice framework for the body&gt; &gt; of your paper.&gt;&gt; &gt; One small objection, you state (accurately IMO) that if students are&gt; &gt; given choices about how their learning needs are going to be met, &gt; &gt; their engagement and expectation of success will increase. You then go&gt; &gt; on to state that 'The level of prescription of choice does not need to&gt; &gt; be great, for example an educator may say "you have the choice of &gt; &gt; creating a 5 page collage-essay OR creating a 5 page collage-essay&gt; &gt; with a smile,"' - which didn't sit well with me. It's been well&gt; &gt; documented in game design that players must feel their choices are &gt; &gt; both interesting and that the choices they make have a direct&gt; &gt; influence on the final outcome, otherwise they rapidly lose interest&gt; &gt; in the game. I see no reason why this should be any less so in a &gt; &gt; learning environment - the choices must be relevant and interesting.&gt;&gt; &gt; I'm keen to hear more about protagonist learning, and wouldn't mind&gt; &gt; dropping in on any planned web conference (please don't make it in 2L &gt; &gt; though, which lags like a dog out here in the broadband-poor&gt; &gt; boondocks :) . Thanks again for sharing this thought provoking&gt; &gt; resource.&gt;&gt; &gt; On Dec 14, 9:30 am, Rasporich &lt; sraspor...@gmail.com&gt; wrote:&gt; &gt; &gt; I'll try that agaain...&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; http://www.ucalgary.ca/~sderaspo/Learner%20as%20Protagonist%20and%20A.&lt;http://www.ucalgary.ca/%7Esderaspo/Learner%20as%20Protagonist%20and%20A. &gt;&gt; &gt; ..&gt;&gt; --
>&gt; --&gt; Leigh Blackall&gt; +64(0)21736539&gt; skype - leigh_blackall&gt; SL - Leroy Goalposthttp://learnonline.wordpress.com
>
>
>--
>--Leigh Blackall+64(0)21736539skype - leigh_blackall

Michael Coghlan

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Dec 16, 2007, 9:18:40 AM12/16/07
to teachAndL...@googlegroups.com
Really instructive videos Leo - great stuff! I presume toudou.com is a Chinese equivalent of YouTube?

- Michael


At 11:44 PM 12/16/2007, you wrote:
I wanted them to use Youtube ,but youtube is really not very userfriendly , only 10 mins and only 100 M can be uploaded so they choose tudou ( means potato in English )
here is adress check it out :
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/X5_VcgA9HgE/?from=uploaded
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/d5Y6uC0iePw/?from=uploaded
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/_fIuyDm2Mlw/?from=uploaded
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/S7Pq3alzZe8/?from=uploaded

The young teacher in that asked my student not to upload the video to the internet due to something happen about one month ago , a teacher from Beijing , a group of students were beating a old teacher in the class and was uoloaded to the internet ,became a huge things in China .

Let me know if you watch this
I also embed one in my blog so you can also watch here
http://leolaoshi.yo2.cn/2007/12/16/mystudentvideoontudou/

Ok with best regards from Leo
http://leolaoshi.yo2.cn





在2007-12-16,"Leigh Blackall" <leighb...@gmail.com> å†™é “ï¼š

>Reading your paper now.. I think I remember now :) its the Christchurch bit that threw me.. you're still on tour then Stefan? Hope you can make it to this arvos meeting.. I'm off on a horse treck this morning, will be back by mid afternoon.
>On Dec 15, 2007 2:57 PM, Leigh Blackall &lt;leighb...@gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>Your based in Christchurch! And we've met!? Stefan.. stefan.. my memory has always been crappy.. can you link me to a picture?Ok then.. Sunday it is! I have set up a room in our Elluminate for 6pm NZST, which is 4pm Eastern Australia, and 5am UTC. Here's the link to the meeting. Let me know if another time is better.If you haven't run Elluminate recently, click that link about 20 minutes before the meeting time to allow for downloads. If the meeting space fails us, I'll set up a Skypecast and send the link through this email forum.
>
>
>
>On Dec 15, 2007 9:30 AM, Rasporich &lt;srasp...@gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>Hey Shaggy,Fantastic feedback! I totally agree with the choices comment - theyall need to be equally stimulating and exciting. I think that commentarose out of my experiences dealing with children using "democratic discipline" in the classroom where I always offered them a choice vs.tell them what to do. I have found that technique very powerful inempowering the individual by not giving them a wall to push upagainst. The hero's journey is very interesting too, and Dethridge quotesChristopher Vogler who offers a 12-step storytelling progress based onthat very approach - his book is next on my list.As an aside, I think Dr. Dethridge teaches at RMIT in Melbourne, and have always wanted to make a connnection with her.Btw, Leigh, I'm based in Christchurch now and just visited you lastweek in Dunedin. ;) So the time zone is no problem.Stefan
>On Dec 14, 4:51 pm, "Leigh Blackall" &lt;leighblack...@gmail.com&gt; wrote:&gt; Ok, great and thanks for the part review Shaggy.&gt;&gt; Rasporich, are you based in Calgary? If so then we have some time &gt; coordination to do as Shaggy is in Australia and I am in NZ. We are both +12&gt; and +13 hours on UTC... so for your Sunday evening would be our Monday&gt; morning... so, where are you?&gt;
>
>
>&gt; On Dec 14, 2007 2:30 PM, botheredbybees &lt;botheredbyb...@gmail.com&gt; wrote:&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; Hey Rasporich, great paper. &gt;&gt; &gt; I've been thinking for a while that it would be useful to structure&gt; &gt; subjects a bit like the hero's journey:&gt;&gt; &gt; This fundamental structure contains a number of stages: &gt;&gt; &gt; 1. A call to adventure, which the hero has to accept or decline&gt; &gt; 2. A road of trials, regarding which the hero succeeds or fails&gt; &gt; 3. Achieving the goal or "boon", which often results in important &gt; &gt; self-knowledge&gt; &gt; 4. A return to the ordinary world, again as to which the hero can&gt; &gt; succeed or fail&gt; &gt; 5. Applying the boon, in which what the hero has gained can be used &gt; &gt; to improve the world&gt;&gt; &gt; (from the wikipedia article:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heros_journey&gt; &gt; )&gt; &gt; &gt; So far that's just been idle musing, but you've gone so much further.&gt; &gt; I especially liked the way you've mapped the seven elements of a&gt; &gt; screenplay plot to a learning contract; and the four p's: protagonist, &gt; &gt; premise, dramatic problem, and plot made a nice framework for the body&gt; &gt; of your paper.&gt;&gt; &gt; One small objection, you state (accurately IMO) that if students are&gt; &gt; given choices about how their learning needs are going to be met, &gt; &gt; their engagement and expectation of success will increase. You then go&gt; &gt; on to state that 'The level of prescription of choice does not need to&gt; &gt; be great, for example an educator may say "you have the choice of &gt; &gt; creating a 5 page collage-essay OR creating a 5 page collage-essay&gt; &gt; with a smile,"' - which didn't sit well with me. It's been well&gt; &gt; documented in game design that players must feel their choices are &gt; &gt; both interesting and that the choices they make have a direct&gt; &gt; influence on the final outcome, otherwise they rapidly lose interest&gt; &gt; in the game. I see no reason why this should be any less so in a &gt; &gt; learning environment - the choices must be relevant and interesting.&gt;&gt; &gt; I'm keen to hear more about protagonist learning, and wouldn't mind&gt; &gt; dropping in on any planned web conference (please don't make it in 2L &gt; &gt; though, which lags like a dog out here in the broadband-poor&gt; &gt; boondocks :) . Thanks again for sharing this thought provoking&gt; &gt; resource.&gt;&gt; &gt; On Dec 14, 9:30 am, Rasporich &lt; sraspor...@gmail.com&gt; wrote:&gt; &gt; &gt; I'll try that agaain...&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; http://www.ucalgary.ca/~sderaspo/Learner%20as%20Protagonist%20and%20A.&lt;http://www.ucalgary.ca/%7Esderaspo/Learner%20as%20Protagonist%20and%20A . &gt;&gt; &gt; ..&gt;&gt; --

Leo Wong

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Dec 16, 2007, 10:25:09 AM12/16/07
to teachAndL...@googlegroups.com
Dear Miachael ,

Thank you for saying that , I think tudou is different from Youtube , I can upload 400 M things to that , I think it is much better than youtube by the way You never know maybe this is the last time you can get access to youtube

My students are all doing this by themselves I did not help them at all , I just gave them technical stupport actully they are teaching me much more to me by using this techie

by the way one of my students his name is claled Kevin he is translating RSS in plain in English to Chinese and trying to upload back to youtube , the problem is subtitles .

Leo
http://leolaoshi..yo2.cn

在2007-12-16,"Michael Coghlan" <mich...@chariot.net.au> 写道:
>Really instructive videos Leo - great stuff! I presume toudou.com is a Chinese equivalent of YouTube?- MichaelAt 11:44 PM 12/16/2007, you wrote:
>I wanted them to use Youtube ,but youtube is really not very userfriendly , only 10 mins and only 100 M can be uploaded so they choose tudou ( means potato in English ) here is adress check it out : http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/X5_VcgA9HgE/?from=uploadedhttp://www.tudou.com/programs/view/d5Y6uC0iePw/?from=uploaded http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/_fIuyDm2Mlw/?from=uploaded http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/S7Pq3alzZe8/?from=uploaded The young teacher in that asked my student not to upload the video to the internet due to something happen about one month ago , a teacher from Beijing , a group of students were beating a old teacher in the class and was uoloaded to the internet ,became a huge things in China .Let me know if you watch this I also embed one in my blog so you can also watch here http://leolaoshi.yo2.cn/2007/12/16/mystudentvideoontudou/Ok with best regards from Leo http://leolaoshi.yo2.cn 在2007-12-16,"Leigh Blackall" &lt;leighb...@gmail.com&gt; å†™é “ï¼š&gt;Reading your paper now.. I think I remember now :) its the Christchurch bit that threw me.. you're still on tour then Stefan? Hope you can make it to this arvos meeting.. I'm off on a horse treck this morning, will be back by mid afternoon. &gt;On Dec 15, 2007 2:57 PM, Leigh Blackall &amp;lt;leighb...@gmail.com&amp;gt; wrote:&gt;Your based in Christchurch! And we've met!? Stefan.. stefan.. my memory has always been crappy.. can you link me to a picture?Ok then.. Sunday it is! I have set up a room in our Elluminate for 6pm NZST, which is 4pm Eastern Australia, and 5am UTC. Here's the link to the meeting. Let me know if another time is better.If you haven't run Elluminate recently, click that link about 20 minutes before the meeting time to allow for downloads. If the meeting space fails us, I'll set up a Skypecast and send the link through this email forum. &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;On Dec 15, 2007 9:30 AM, Rasporich &amp;lt;srasp...@gmail.com&amp;gt; wrote:&gt;Hey Shaggy,Fantastic feedback! I totally agree with the choices comment - theyall need to be equally stimulating and exciting. I think that commentarose out of my experiences dealing with children using "democratic discipline" in the classroom where I always offered them a choice vs.tell them what to do. I have found that technique very powerful inempowering the individual by not giving them a wall to push upagainst. The hero's journey is very interesting too, and Dethridge quotesChristopher Vogler who offers a 12-step storytelling progress based onthat very approach - his book is next on my list.As an aside, I think Dr. Dethridge teaches at RMIT in Melbourne, and have always wanted to make a connnection with her.Btw, Leigh, I'm based in Christchurch now and just visited you lastweek in Dunedin. ;) So the time zone is no problem.Stefan&gt;On Dec 14, 4:51 pm, "Leigh Blackall" &amp;lt;leighblack...@gmail.com&amp;gt; wrote:&amp;gt; Ok, great and thanks for the part review Shaggy.&amp;gt;&amp;gt; Rasporich, are you based in Calgary? If so then we have some time &amp;gt; coordination to do as Shaggy is in Australia and I am in NZ. We are both +12&amp;gt; and +13 hours on UTC... so for your Sunday evening would be our Monday&amp;gt; morning... so, where are you?&amp;gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;gt; On Dec 14, 2007 2:30 PM, botheredbybees &amp;lt;botheredbyb...@gmail.com&amp;gt; wrote:&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; &amp;gt; Hey Rasporich, great paper. &amp;gt;&amp;gt; &amp;gt; I've been thinking for a while that it would be useful to structure&amp;gt; &amp;gt; subjects a bit like the hero's journey:&amp;gt;&amp;gt; &amp;gt; This fundamental structure contains a number of stages: &amp;gt;&amp;gt; &amp;gt; 1. A call to adventure, which the hero has to accept or decline&amp;gt; &amp;gt; 2. A road of trials, regarding which the hero succeeds or fails&amp;gt; &amp;gt; 3. Achieving the goal or "boon", which often results in important &amp;gt; &amp;gt; self-knowledge&amp;gt; &amp;gt; 4. A return to the ordinary world, again as to which the hero can&amp;gt; &amp;gt; succeed or fail&amp;gt; &amp;gt; 5. Applying the boon, in which what the hero has gained can be used &amp;gt; &amp;gt; to improve the world&amp;gt;&amp;gt; &amp;gt; (from the wikipedia article:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heros_journey&amp;gt; &amp;gt; )&amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; So far that's just been idle musing, but you've gone so much further.&amp;gt; &amp;gt; I especially liked the way you've mapped the seven elements of a&amp;gt; &amp;gt; screenplay plot to a learning contract; and the four p's: protagonist, &amp;gt; &amp;gt; premise, dramatic problem, and plot made a nice framework for the body&amp;gt; &amp;gt; of your paper.&amp;gt;&amp;gt; &amp;gt; One small objection, you state (accurately IMO) that if students are&amp;gt; &amp;gt; given choices about how their learning needs are going to be met, &amp;gt; &amp;gt; their engagement and expectation of success will increase. You then go&amp;gt; &amp;gt; on to state that 'The level of prescription of choice does not need to&amp;gt; &amp;gt; be great, for example an educator may say "you have the choice of &amp;gt; &amp;gt; creating a 5 page collage-essay OR creating a 5 page collage-essay&amp;gt; &amp;gt; with a smile,"' - which didn't sit well with me. It's been well&amp;gt; &amp;gt; documented in game design that players must feel their choices are &amp;gt; &amp;gt; both interesting and that the choices they make have a direct&amp;gt; &amp;gt; influence on the final outcome, otherwise they rapidly lose interest&amp;gt; &amp;gt; in the game. I see no reason why this should be any less so in a &amp;gt; &amp;gt; learning environment - the choices must be relevant and interesting.&amp;gt;&amp;gt; &amp;gt; I'm keen to hear more about protagonist learning, and wouldn't mind&amp;gt; &amp;gt; dropping in on any planned web conference (please don't make it in 2L &amp;gt; &amp;gt; though, which lags like a dog out here in the broadband-poor&amp;gt; &amp;gt; boondocks :) . Thanks again for sharing this thought provoking&amp;gt; &amp;gt; resource.&amp;gt;&amp;gt; &amp;gt; On Dec 14, 9:30 am, Rasporich &amp;lt; sraspor...@gmail.com&amp;gt; wrote:&amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; I'll try that agaain...&amp;gt;&amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; http://www.ucalgary.ca/~sderaspo/Learner%20as%20Protagonist%20and%20A.&amp;lt;http://www.ucalgary.ca/%7Esderaspo/Learner%20as%20Protagonist%20and%20A . &amp;gt;&amp;gt; &amp;gt; ..&amp;gt;&amp;gt; --&gt;&amp;gt; --&amp;gt; Leigh Blackall&amp;gt; +64(0)21736539&amp;gt; skype - leigh_blackall&amp;gt; SL - Leroy Goalposthttp://learnonline.wordpress.com&gt;&gt;&gt;-- &gt;--Leigh Blackall+64(0)21736539skype - leigh_blackall&gt;&gt;&gt;SL - Leroy Goalposthttp://learnonline.wordpress.com -- --Leigh Blackall+64(0)21736539skype - leigh_blackallSL - Leroy Goalposthttp://learnonline.wordpress.com

Leigh Blackall

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Dec 17, 2007, 12:05:18 AM12/17/07
to teachAndL...@googlegroups.com
Hi there,

Here is a copy of Stefan's paper on Wikieducator, along with an audio recording of the recent discussion between Stefan, Peter and myself about his Learner as Protagonist concept. Many thanks Stefan, I got a lot out of this and will blog about any experiments I do with your model.

Regards Leigh

Alex Preal

unread,
Dec 19, 2007, 6:22:53 AM12/19/07
to Teach and Learn Online
Hi Leigh,

Many thanks indeed!! Most inspiring and thought-provoking I've come
across recently. Still digesting the potential. Do you three mind if I
quote your discussion in my PhD? Stefan, can I quote your paper? The
original word doc or wikieducator? Kind of confirmation for my
department I haven't turned mad. Sad to see how little some
mentalities have changed 10 yrs later.

Best,

Alex

On Dec 17, 6:05 am, "Leigh Blackall" <leighblack...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> Here is a copy of Stefan's paper on
> Wikieducator<http://wikieducator.org/The_Learner_as_Protagonist>,
> along with an audio recording of the recent discussion between Stefan, Peter
> and myself about his Learner as Protagonist concept. Many thanks Stefan, I
> got a lot out of this and will blog about any experiments I do with your
> model.
>
> Regards Leigh
>
> On Dec 16, 2007 8:56 AM, Leigh Blackall <leighblack...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Reading your paper now.. I think I remember now :) its the Christchurch
> > bit that threw me.. you're still on tour then Stefan? Hope you can make it
> > to this arvos meeting.. I'm off on a horse treck this morning, will be back
> > by mid afternoon.
>
> > On Dec 15, 2007 2:57 PM, Leigh Blackall <leighblack...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Your based in Christchurch! And we've met!? Stefan.. stefan.. my memory
> > > has always been crappy.. can you link me to a picture?
>
> > > Ok then.. Sunday it is! I have set up a room in our Elluminate for 6pm
> > > NZST, which is 4pm Eastern Australia, and 5am UTC. Here's the link to
> > > the meeting<http://elluminate.tekotago.ac.nz/join_meeting.html?meetingId=11976837...>.
> > > Let me know if another time is better.
>
> > > If you haven't run Elluminate recently, click that link about 20 minutes
> > > before the meeting time to allow for downloads. If the meeting space fails
> > > us, I'll set up a Skypecast and send the link through this email forum.
>

Leigh Blackall

unread,
Dec 19, 2007, 5:48:14 PM12/19/07
to teachAndL...@googlegroups.com
Hi Alex, you can quote anything from me :) thanks for asking and do show us your product when done. I'm sure Stefan wouldn't mind, though he is yet to publish his work officially too.. so better wait for his reply or chase him off list

Rasporich

unread,
Dec 19, 2007, 8:48:23 PM12/19/07
to Teach and Learn Online
Hi Alex,

You're more than welcome to quote from the discussion, and the paper.
As Leigh pointed out, it is yet unpublished in any journal so you may
want to identify that. I'm new to the whole publishing game, having
been working with kids for so long and just finishing the master's,
but hope to learn more about it.

Regards,
Stefan

Barbara Dieu

unread,
Dec 20, 2007, 4:48:55 AM12/20/07
to teachAndL...@googlegroups.com
Stefan,
I read your paper and just loved the rationale behind it as it
mirrors very much the process of what goes on in one's mind in many
learning situations.

Although at a totally different level and with a different goal, I
worked with my high school students (English as a Foreign Language) on
Campbell's heroic journey.

<http://lycee.wikispaces.com/archetypes> (have a look at the resources)

It was a 3-month heroic journey for all of us as they had to choose
one of the heroic archetypes proposed, write a storyboard showing the
different steps of the hero's journey from scratch and at the end
converting it to a multimedia production and I had to guide them in
the process. Our production was not very sophisticated (mostly for
our lack of time and skills in multimedia) but it produced lots of
talking and negotiating both inside and outside the classroom ,
collaboration and some of the stories were very imaginative. At the
end, they watched the clips all the groups had produced and wrote both
a peer and a self-assessment. It worked really well.

The reference material you will find here has been taken from various
internet sources and leans heavily on Carol Pearson's book Awakening
the Heros Within and Alan Levine's project
http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/smc/journey/

Warm regards from Brazil,
Bee

--
Barbara Dieu
http://dekita.org
http://beewebhead.net

rgrozdanic

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Dec 20, 2007, 7:38:47 AM12/20/07
to teachAndL...@googlegroups.com
Hi Stefan - I'm also finding your ideas interesting but I'm not sure I'm really getting a clear picture.

One thing I'd like to understand more is the drama manager thing - it seems to me that one of the most important variables in the hero's (or any mythic) journey is the unpredicability and genuine risk it involves. So I'm wondering how managed the learning can become before it robs the experience of its potential meaning and transformative power. Ditto with "responsibility to make sure that learners will expect their strengths, skills and knowledge to be assets prior to entering the quest". I think that we Disneyfy learning (and misrpresent the real world) if we try to pretend that learning is necessarily a comfortable or neat thing. And things shift - strengths can so easily become impediments and vice versa - ask any youngest child in any folk story the world over.

Another thing I'm interested in is the idea of "value-driven" approaches where I start to run into questions about "whose values" and the whole gamut from universal truths to moral relativism. What have your experiences been and how do you navigate this territory?

I'd like to understand better whether you're describing fairly discrete, parallel, linear journeys or whether there's scope for facilitating the integration and overlap between the different journeys where students may be the protagonist in their own experiences but play many roles (mentor, nemesis, friend, stranger etc) in the stories of others (and it seems to me this bleeding and blurring of boundaries is inevitable wherever there is more than one person or learner). An how important or effective are peer reviews per se as assessment strategies - if the peers are *in* the story I imagine there's a whole other dimension of appreciation and insight (rather than a collection of evidence for others that may not even make sense unless you "were there", kind of thing). I have similar questons about the rituals and rites of passage - is there a more holistic, embedded framework that would more authentically mirror the performative value of things like public recognition and would include less public but just as meaningful symbolic experiences for the learner?

Finally I have a question about whether the journey itself (or the various props, worlds, languages or stage directions) really matter that much. Or, rather, is the crux of the matter really about the meaning that people make? (which is what I reckon all learning is anyway). Or have you found that the frameworks and stage management and scripting is essential to what you're creating?

Not sure how long you've been in TALO - I have a weird learning style where I need to find out what things are not in order to understand what they are. (Probably a bit like sculpture where you chip away until something emerges). So I hope my questions make sense and that we get to hear more about your work.

bye for now

rose
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