Rancid Web 2.0
alexanderhayes
I suspect we need some free-ranging insight into what would otherwise
appear as a bunfight on bloggers, standards and aggresive posturing.
Any words of wisdom on a contentious web world wonderland would be
appreciated.
Regards,
Alexander Hayes
www.alexanderhayes.com
Leigh Blackall
http://www.lulu.com/leighblackall
--
Leigh Blackall
+6421736539
skype - leigh_blackall
http://leighblackall.wikispaces.org/
James Neill - Wilderdom
From: teachAndL...@googlegroups.com [mailto:teachAndL...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Leigh Blackall
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 11:28 AM
To: teachAndL...@googlegroups.com
Subject: :: TALO :: Re: Rancid Web 2.0
alexanderhayes
I'm sure the powers to be within EDNA havent knocked you off a simple
Moodle forum...rather invited you to speak critically about it
elsewhere. No one likes an agitator unless they have washing to throw
in as well.
As you often say, an open conversation allows others to objectively
co-administer or block trite as needed....maybe thats the fate of these
forums however I believe many are only entering the conversation so it
will be some time to come yet till we see them speaking out and about
in the blogsphere.
I value at least having the ability to network with those seeking ways
to building new and often controversial ways of engaging learners.
Co-incidently ..... I dont use the term 'bullshit' with anyone unless
I'm prepared to eat it.
Regards,
Alexander Hayes
www.alexanderhayes.com
botts
as for the disabilities bloke, despite his complaints that everyone is
single minded and rehashing old ideas, he does begin to sound like a
broken record himself after a while. peace out man.
botts
Sean FitzGerald
It was nothing personal guys - you just must have missed the explanatory post - http://www.groups.edna.edu.au/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=6737
Personally I think what they are doing is a bit inappropriate.
Sean
-- Sean FitzGerald Tel: +61 (0)2 9360 3291 Mob: +61 (0)404 130 342 Skype: seamusy Email: se...@tig.com.au Website: http://seanfitz.wikispaces.com/ Blog: http://elgg.net/seanfitz/weblog/ Podcast: http://castingthenetpodcast.blogspot.com/ A man is what he thinks about all day long. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Sean FitzGerald
> Don't worry about it Alex. That's just how forums like that go. Best
> thing to do is for everyone to go silent.
needs to speak up.
Sean
--
Sean FitzGerald
Tel: +61 (0)2 9360 3291
Mob: +61 (0)404 130 342
Skype: seamusy
Email: se...@tig.com.au
Website: http://seanfitz.wikispaces.com/
Blog: http://elgg.net/seanfitz/weblog/
Podcast: http://castingthenetpodcast.blogspot.com/
Postmodernism is a change-or-be-changed world.
The word is out: Reinvent yourself for the 21st
century or die! Some would rather die than change.
-- Leonard Sweet, cultural historian
Michael Coghlan
Leigh Blackall wrote:
> Don't worry about it Alex. That's just how forums like that go. Best
> thing to do is for everyone to go silent.
Actually I would say the opposite needs to happen - the whole community
needs to speak up.
- Michael
Sean FitzGerald
I think we have a classical example developing here of the tension that exists between traditional, hierarchical ways of running things, and the tools that support those social forms, and the new non-hierarchical, community-based way of running things, and the tools that support that.
You are right about the advantage of open conversations on the open web. I suspect many statements made by some people on the forum would have been ripped to shreds by the blogosphere if they weren't hiding behind the walled garden.
And if what I suspect has happened is true, then so much for transparency - moderators have unilaterally deleted the posts without explanation or warning, although they have posted a very low-key reminder of the Code of Conduct after the fact, without comment, at the end of this Newsflash.
By deleting them we can't even debate their merit. However I do have copies of all the deleted posts - I received them as emails, although I notice in their Code of Conduct I that can't re-post them without the written permission of the author.
I'm no happy about this and have a lot more to say, but I will reserve putting my thoughts on the forum until I'm clear about what's actually happened.
I've posted this - http://www.groups.edna.edu.au/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=7069 :
What's happened to the missing posts?
by Sean FitzGerald - Tuesday, 27 June 2006, 07:04 AM
Unfortunately I've been too busy to contribute my thoughts to the drama that has been unfolding here over the last week or so, but I've kept one eye on what's been happening and I've been busting for the chance to have my say.
I've just spent several hours going through the posts in my inbox, putting drafting some of my thoughts about what's been happening including many issues I think this discussion has raised.
Imagine my surprise when I went to start posting responses to the forum only to find that many of the posts are missing.
I count 17 posts that are missing, including ones by Adam Maxwell, Leonard Low, Alex Hayes, Chris Harvey and James Neil.
Before I say anything else I'd like to know what's happened. Does anybody know?
Sean
As you can see, none of my posts have been deleted (yet!) so this isn't about me being upset about being censored myself - it's about the principle.
This is all about power people, and the abuse of it. Things are really going to get interesting now!
Sean
Sean FitzGerald
Sean wrote:
Actually I would say the opposite needs to happen - the whole community
needs to speak up.
Then Michael Coghlan wrote:
Interesting thought Sean. The Adam guy seems to have already fled after the challenge from Alex so it may be too late. Maybe someone (?) could draft a response and we all sign it....I went back through the whole thread and couldn't see why he turned on Leonard and got all defensive. I already wrote to Leonard and told him so privately but maybe it should be public.....
Unfortunately I think it's a bit late for that now. This discussion has just entered a whole new level.
If what I think has happened is true, then that forum is only a community in name.
James Neill - Wilderdom
From: teachAndL...@googlegroups.com [mailto:teachAndL...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Sean FitzGerald
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 7:43 AM
alexanderhayes
This is how it's occured for me.
I logged into EDNA groups by way of the the web2.0 June discussion to
find a senior poster ( a seasoned and articulate AFLF contributor)
calling someone elses contributions b*^#@ and then to boot getting what
appeared in a textual / contextual string to be aggressive and less
than polite.
I ( me) just didnt get it.......it didnt flow or make sense even if
Adam was upset at something other than the topic area .....it was just
uncalled for and innapropriate I thought.
Anyway what has followed has been what i would think to be the turning
point in where communities of online communication go, what I call,
rancid.......... when the workings of the moderator are not apparent
nor transparent. Nothing personal.......just thats how it's become.
Moderators are only ever effective if they can draw people into a
sensible frame of reference within the online community.....spammers
have no place however memebrs are underghoing their own education and
socialistaion process....however nasty they might seem everyone just
wants to be heard, seen and included in my opinion.
I first saw the best examples of this when Anne, Sean, Leigh, Peter
Holden, Mat, Alfie and others ducked and weaved what could have been a
very messy conversation over at http://moblog.co.uk/view.php?id=86922
Nothings been deleted.....look at how the student prospered to see
adults talking and conversing.
Sure the whole idea that the distributive, networked, open web forum
idea mangles some peoples perspectives on what constitutes fair play
and what breaches what protocol however I'm of the firm opinion that
this will be a seminal moment in the workings of conversations which
emanate from the EDNA chambers.....closed no more.
Perhaps all that AFLF funding has enabled enough 'architects' to take
the networks into its truest and most resonant state of being - a
multitude of connected learning spaces, a plethora of open voices, an
ever changing field of conversations which reference each other true in
their final form.
I have only challenged myself. I agree with Sean......the web2.0
conversation has entered a new level. We are about to watch more than
the world cup and we will be assured this will benefit our students as
we take responsibility for the positions we take with respect to our
own online conduct......floppy names and fuzzy freebies aside.
This way of being is here to stay.
Regards,
Alexander Hayes
www.alexanderhayes.com
rgrozdanic
i liked the dogbreath moblog example. i liked the way the issue wasn't about whether the image was inappropriate but instead "why" it might or might not be and how this was left undecided even at the end of the discussion. i see better pictures of breasts in the magazines my mother buys, the posters on the wall at the doctor's surgery, K-mart... it wasn't about the picture. on another day in another time it'd be about her jewellery, his haircut, their age, whatever. sometimes it's just about power. or humour. or nothing at all.
i especially liked the comment from what sounded like an administrator from moblog who posted
..."If you're going to try and introduce all these fancy new book-learnt new theories to the yoof of today you really have to be prepared for them to shock and alarm you with how they use it.
To summarise then, phwoar."
the "phwoar" said it all. (still cracks me up :-))
the conversation in here on rancid 2.0 is really interesting. talo has some of the most opinionated, trigger happy, free range people i've known in it yet i notice that it's also actually quite a refined and almost genteel place in many ways - even the way you guys are discussing the rancid 2.0 issue is measured and sensible and constructive and so on even though you feel strongly about various aspects. my prediction would have been that there'd be people storming the bastilles, being hasty, etc. (or maybe that's just me... :-))
it's really interesting. and instructive. and supports what some of you say about the equilibrium of self organising groups. but i still wonder, why haven't we had a similar thing in talo? surely this group would attract/encourage conflict and passionate clashes etc? what's your theory?
r
Stephen Downes
I'm posting a summary of the discussion and controversy today. Have a look and comment back if so motivated:
http://www.downes.ca/cgi-bin/page.cgi?post=34857
Personally I think it's kind of sad that they can't get through a discussion of Web and e-learning 2.0 without auto-subscribing people and without deleting half the posts.
-- Stephen
__________________________________________________________________
Stephen Downes ~ Senior Researcher ~ Internet Logic
National Research Council Canada ~ Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada
http://www.downes.ca ~ ste...@downes.ca
__________________________________________________________________
Sean FitzGerald
The first is the original drama caused by a certain individual hurling some pretty nasty sarcasm and personal attacks. While there are heated debates here on TALO, and the occasional bit of sarcasm, it never descends into fully-fledged nastiness and name-calling. There remains a respect for each other's opinions.
The second issue is the upset about the way the moderator(s) handled the conflict, that is by unilaterally deleting 17 posts without warning. That would never happen here because there are multiple moderators and anyone can be moderator, and in a weird way by us all having that power we seem to become very cautious about how we use it.
I also think there would be more transparency here, with an attitude of 'consult the group first before making any major changes as moderator'.
Sean
-- Sean FitzGerald Tel: +61 (0)2 9360 3291 Mob: +61 (0)404 130 342 Skype: seamusy Email: se...@tig.com.au Website: http://seanfitz.wikispaces.com/ Blog: http://elgg.net/seanfitz/weblog/ Podcast: http://castingthenetpodcast.blogspot.com/
Hard things are put in our way, not to stop us, but to call out our courage and strength. -- Anonymous
peter allen
I set up a google group for my local sporting club. - which incidently is a GREATt thing to do, - you can practice facilitation and community building in an environment that doesnt have career limitations. - its a fabulous training environment for e-learning!
Anyway, the list is quite tolerant but a cople of guys were posting really off jokes involving sheep etc. so as moderator I temporaily moderated their posts - ie I set it so that I would vet the posts before being sent to the lists.
This form of censorship was deeply offensive to almost everyone in the group. who by now had become used to the freedom of speech that they had on the mailing list.
The moderation was switched on for 3 hours, but the furore it created - generated 61 posts
it seemed that heavy handed moderation was more offensive than the sheep jokes.
I have seen on another forum where a moderator had to deal with nasty "rancid" posts where all messages remained in context but were "edited" with alterations such as [personal comment deleted] or [expletive deleted] so that the gist of the debate reamained.
botts
anything naughty :-) :-) :-)
botts
Leigh Blackall
Regarding Sean's reply to my suggestion that the community should just go silent. I think sudden silence is actually the community speaking quite loudly. It has happened here in TALO a few times, especially when Chris has flung a bit of dung at me. I think the EDNA example clearly shows that Leonard is a good bloke and Adam is not. But if it were less clear, I would write to Leonard off list and offer words of support.
As for the rancid web2. I reckon forums (by themselves - including this list) are not web 2. I'm sitting here thinking, why is it that forums seem to attract more rancid remarks, and the blogosphere tend not to. I know there are plenty of examples of flame wars through blogs, and TALO is a forum that seem to do quite well, but there are reasons for this that relate to the observation, so I wanna say this:
In a forum the individual human identities are less obvious. Through a blog they can be very obvious. I remember when Moodle came on the scene and one of the most appreciated things about it was the fact that it added little pictures of the person posting. I think its interesting to note the apparent need for this feature. But those pictures are nothing compared to a whole blog, with flickr badge and tag clouds. So when a discussion goes on through blogs, the identity and the human element is more obvious, stronger > therefore I tend to think politeness and respect comes more naturally when conversing through blogs. In forums, the identity, history, family, colour choice, etc is not so obvious. A person's identity becomes second to the identity or template of the system. Therefore participants may become more anxious about what they are trying to say, more concerned with whether or not they are being heard for who they actually are and the historic context of where they're coming from... a recipe for rancid remarks and tensions...
--
Would you like to buy my book? http://www.lulu.com/leighblackall
Marg
reading the forum here and there, and have also been discussing this
event at length with my work colleagues.
Firstly, I'd agree with Stephen that "it's kind of sad that they can't
get through a discussion of Web and e-learning 2.0 without
auto-subscribing people and without deleting half the posts."
Moderation is a tricky thing and it always appears to me that the way
we approach it is as a process that is all or nothing, no grey areas
about it! We can only improve our moderation skills and understanding
by facing these issues, instead of sweeping them under the carpet
(effectively deleting them). As for ignoring this type of flaming
discussion, isn't that ignoring them too (again, there are various
levels to 'ignoring' something too). I also acknowledge that the EdNA
moderators have moderated for a while and have much experience in doing
so.
Sean responded to Alex in part:
"You are right about the advantage of open conversations on the open
web. I suspect many statements made by some people on the forum would
have been ripped to shreds by the blogosphere if they weren't hiding
behind the walled garden."
As well as being open, conversations (of ANY kind!) are REAL. Like
others, I use weblogs and Flickr, etc and I've blocked people, deleted
some comments or not let certain comments through. This is MY choice as
a user and it's also been a learning process for me too. I have
developed a better understanding of what I consider to be acceptable
that relates to my values relevant to certain settings. So, I'm not
gonna have a guy view my pics and comment on them if I see there are no
'real connections' between us as people (or there's that uncomfortable
feeling that he's not interested beyond leering at my photos!). The
moblog that Alex points us to is a pertinent illustration of how a
process of consideration, reflection and discussion can help us further
understand the nuances of human communication in particular settings,
especially online - thanks Alex. Otherwise, how would we teach our
students to learn and operate in a range of settings?
So, with the EdNA forums are they 'keeping it real'? I'd question that
- if there is simply a tendency to delete posts that someone deems
offensive (in terms of their Code of Conduct) then I'm not sure I'd
consider that 'dealing with it' in a way that develops the
professionality of the community itself (BTW - those of you who had
posts deleted, were you forewarned?). How do we define 'conduct' and
'comfortability'?
Perhaps we could hear from the EdNA moderators/admin people directly:
Who devised the EdNA Groups Code of Conduct? Is it a document in need
of revising? Should documents of this nature be presented as 'living
documents'? The nature, service and technical aspects of 'online-ness'
develops and evolves at such a rate that perhaps we find hard to keep
up with in terms of our social-administrative systems (look at
copyright, IP, provacy and other legal issues as a prime example). Who
determines the levels of safety, the type of content, the conduct of
the community, if not the community members themselves?
And, as Sean said, "By deleting them we can't even debate their merit.
However I do have copies of all the deleted posts - I received them as
emails, although I notice in their Code of Conduct I that can't re-post
them without the written permission of the author." ....Re-post I say!!
:oP
It is all too easy to flick the switch.
I'll finish my rant with <a
href="http://www.groups.edna.edu.au/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=6551">a
quote from Simon Fenton-Jones</a> on EdNA who says: "The lesson [of
exploring obstacles to social networking] is; Learning requires one to
travel (between domains)."
Cheers, Marg
PS. In developing my post here, I've noticed a new florish of posts on
the EdNA forum, I particularly adhere to <a
href="http://www.groups.edna.edu.au/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=6615">Michael
Coghlan's idea of moderating</a> such conversations too - great to see
cross-posting and hope this will 'travel' further afield!
James Neill - Wilderdom
James Neill - Wilderdom
not as far as I can tell a code of conduct for moderators.
I've posted to EdNA the suggestion that the code of conduct is put into wiki
format. I think that's where the rubber hits the road - a government-run
forum cannot go that far into web2.0.
Sean FitzGerald
When I said "I suspect many statements made by some people on the forum would have been ripped to shreds by the blogosphere if they weren't hiding behind the walled garden", I of course meant Adam. I wonder if he would dare say the things he says on the open web.
It's a bummer that they deleted his posts. As we've discussed on TALO before, better to leave everything up and let people address it.
Its also a bummer because people don't get to see what he is really like. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that he always seems to be subtly flogging his own business (now why isn't that against the code of conduct?) but I wonder how many potential clients would employ him if they saw what sort of person he is and how he interacts with people.
By deleting his posts the moderators have enabled him to move on a create havoc somewhere else with impunity - with no-one being the wiser - instead of his reputation preceding him.
As Leigh says, without the context of his whole personality people would only get a skewed view of him (the one he chooses to publicly display).
Marg - good point about still having the right to censor what is said on our own personal spaces - it is our choice. I'd be inclined to leave even critical comments on a blog, preferring to engage the poster than delete them, but if they went too far into personal attacks or other inappropriate behaviour I'd have no hesitation in deleting them.
btw - there was no warning before they deleted the posts.
I also love this moving between domains that is occurring. We are storming the walls of the garden!
I notice though, that they still haven't turned on their RSS feed!
Sean
-- Sean FitzGerald Tel: +61 (0)2 9360 3291 Mob: +61 (0)404 130 342 Skype: seamusy Email: se...@tig.com.au Website: http://seanfitz.wikispaces.com/ Blog: http://elgg.net/seanfitz/weblog/ Podcast: http://castingthenetpodcast.blogspot.com/
Victory is sweetest when you've known defeat. -- Malcolm Forbes (American Publisher)
James Neill - Wilderdom
Sean FitzGerald
Perhaps if the naughty posts aren't reinstated on EdNA then they can be fwded on through TALO so that they do exist in public space.
I'm sure the others will be fine with this, but who would like to ask Adam? :-)
Sean
-- Sean FitzGerald Tel: +61 (0)2 9360 3291 Mob: +61 (0)404 130 342 Skype: seamusy Email: se...@tig.com.au Website: http://seanfitz.wikispaces.com/ Blog: http://elgg.net/seanfitz/weblog/ Podcast: http://castingthenetpodcast.blogspot.com/
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it! -- Anonymous
James Neill - Wilderdom
botts...@westnet.com.au
my regular reads dropped out of the blogosphere for an extended
period of time. if you're interested you can see the post (and some
replies) here:
http://bottsplace.blogspot.com/2006/05/oh-art-whereart-thou.html
have a great day
botts
rgrozdanic
isn't it possible to discuss the generalities of the incident in talo without turning this into a she said/he said kind of uproar with a hero at one end? (and yeah - leonard's a wonderful, talented, experienced, well balanced, knowledgable chap - of all of us, i reckon he'd be the least concerned about much of this)
i have a HUGE aversion to publicly shaming people unless the issue is so big or murky that you'd potentially damage huge numbers of lives without exposing it. i wouldn't know adam from a broomstick but i am beginning to feel very defensive on his behalf - does he really deserve the derision that is beginning to emerge here? and if so, how will i tell the difference between you (you as in anyone) and him next time i'm online?
gah!
r
Michael Coghlan
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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James Neill - Wilderdom
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 2:59 PM
Sean FitzGerald
Some people want to see the posts so they could a) retrieve the interesting discussion that was occurring and b) see what the content was that caused the moderator to delete the posts, so people can judge for themselves if that action was fair.
Without the original posts how can people know what is being talked about?
You suggest going back to the original forum, but the conversation is starting to merge between the domains, so it doesn't have to sit in any one little box.
You ask if Adam deserves the derision he is receiving here? You tell me - have you read the things he said (oh wait, no - you can't because they have been deleted!)
Even before this though he's been slinging shit at us for months.
I have no problem with criticising his behaviour. And the nastiest thing anyone has said about him as a person here on TALO is that he's not a very nice guy, and I stand by that opinion.
What people are saying here is nothing compared to what he was saying, so it's pretty easy to tell us apart.
Sean
Mann, Robert
I haven’t been buying myself as much time as I’d like of late to keep up with this sort of stuff but this has pressed my buttons…
As a reluctantly casual observer of these conversations I figure I can offer a completely dispassionate view.
I’ve just read the entire edna thread, this TALO thread and Stephen’s commentary.
What I’m left with is- I’ve missed something! The incident was something to learn from, for good or ill. I can’t determine. I can’t form an independent opinion on the rights and wrongs of what has been deleted. However I have formed an opinion on the process of moderation which in itself is formed purely on the absence of the offending posts.
If what occurred was said in a classroom, we can’t erase the memory of what or how it was said from everyone in earshot. We have to manage the fallout. With the exception of managing defamation/slander etc* …Why should on-line be any different.
*Given the EdNa stuff could also go out via email, the genie is already out of the bottle as far as defamation etc goes anyway. Which provides an interesting topical parallel with the current Crikey/ Llewellan/ Rowe affidavit fiasco currently playing out in the courts- which potentially has all sorts of implications for on-line communication
I figure dealing with trolls is an unavoidable part of on-line communication. As a community of professionals and peers I can’t help but feel an opportunity has been missed.
From: teachAndL...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:teachAndL...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Sean FitzGerald
Sent: Wednesday, 28 June 2006 5:00
PM
To: teachAndL...@googlegroups.com
Subject: :: TALO :: Re: Rancid Web
2.0
Hang on Rose - I think you have
the wrong end of the stick here. No one said anything about the shaming the
guy.
rgrozdanic wrote:
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rgrozdanic
i too have been interested to notice the parallels between the crikey.com thing and this. (i subscribe to crikey which means i've got a copy of the restricted information in my in box). the thing that strikes me most about it however is how incredibly boring it is - i think 9 are going to cause way more trouble for themselves by trying to restrict it than they would if they'd just let it go - honestly, it's something i wouldn't even find remarkable in the least - "big organisation acts in less than ideal ways, displaying fairly immature and bullyish culture" - geez - someone call a journalist!...
i don't think the opportunity has been missed. i think this fallout is terrific, the conversations fascinating, the jury still out. everyone will learn something from this, including people like me who live on another continent to edna. my main objection was that someone was threatening to repost something without the author and the moderator of the forums in question having been given enough time (in my opinion) to respond or act or whatever. it just seemed a bit unethical so i posted what i thought. cos that's what we do here.
cheers
r
botts
rgrozdanic wrote:
> ... so i posted what i thought. cos that's what we do here.
hey rose
way back in this thread you asked why this group doesn't seem to suffer
the same violent, english soccer hooligan type behaviour that most other
forums suffer from. and i think you sort of answered your own question
here. we do tend to post what we think, that is what we do here, and
its an accepted and perhaps even expected part of being of a taloist.
and so for me, the upside of this expectation is that i can say what i'm
thinking, be guided / corrected / reinformed on the subject, and then
repost my new thoughts and so on in ever diminishing circles.
i also think, while i'm at it, that this group also has a good mix of
the sorts of people that make up real world communities. we've got
evangelists and pragmatists and smart arses and lurkers and serious deep
thinkers and people without lives outside of the internet and etc etc
etc which in itself cretaes a community of strength that is not likely
to fall into these too familiar self harming behaviours that we are
seeing in other places.
botts
btw: on a completely unrelated and off topic note, is there any chance
you can email me with some sort of phonetic example of how to pronounce
your surname. i'd like to know so that i can include you as the
hero(ine) [depends on what century you were born in i think] in a rather
tongue in cheek podcast i'm developing for the edification of those who
call themselves TALO..... :-) 8-)
botts
saw this on boing boing and thought it was pretty cool.
have linked to it from my blog as well, but for those who don't visit
bottsplace, then you might like to check out:
http://www.bud.com/details.html
and the boing boing link here:
http://www.boingboing.net/2006/06/16/passively_multiplaye.html
Sean FitzGerald
And yes, they are on holidays, so I am waiting eagerly for their return so they can share their side of the story. I'm also concerned that the discussion is getting a bit lopsided.
Sean