The link of new movie to education may not be immediately apparent but
is covered at 1hr 34min. Part 2 and 3 worth the wait. Currently the
page is being considered for deletion from wikipedia?
Whether you agree or not it's a somber thought provoking watch...
Check it out
I am seriously reconsidering everything I do and think after this. I must keep love in mind, heart and hand while I fend off the overwhelming fear that much of this movie brings to me..
This is a long movie, and one that I recomend you download rather than stream. You better be comfortable, warm and secure when you watch it, and have time to spend with yourself and then loved ones afterwards.http://learnonline.wordpress.com/2007/07/14/watch-this-read-the-references-and-tell-me-you-are-not-moved/
i've watched/reach a fair bit of 911 conspiracy stuff
(http://del.icio.us/jtneill/911) and at the very least it seems to me
that an honest, thinking citizen has to be concerned about the C-grade
spy thriller that is the official 911 report
unlearning is perhaps the most important educational objective of our time
> unlearning is perhaps the most important educational objective of our time
or learning to govern in a free, participative, humane, ecological way
at the current scale. I think that is what is very apparently broken.
I think our current systems are unable to make good or safe decisions
at the scale or abstraction level that they use to enable global
I do not know whether distributed communities are going to be better
able to discuss, decide and implement better outcomes for communities
and for our planet's ecology. But for all our sakes I hope we give it
a good try.
Swap that for a model of governance that abstracts the ecology and
humanity out of the equations used to govern. Math is abstractable,
and the diffuse interests of people and ecology are abstracted out as
noise because they do not quantify well. Profits quantify well. People
with cash are effective at representing their own interests. This is
good business sense. It has costs which are not represented in the
models used to govern.
> At best, they know something that we don't, and it is forcing them to do terrible things. Maybe that something is peak oil..? at worst, they are greedy imperialists.
People acting in their own best interests.
> But in all these movies I have seen so far - there is the claim that it is a
> secret. It doesn't appear to be a secret! The consolidated evidence and
> agit' prop is EVERYWHERE!
Fear, anger, and division keep us all close to the systems we look to
A lot of our freedom to discuss and share and participate is
criticised/opposed as a challenge to our safety. Our ISPs need to
track and control our traffic. Our conversations need to be tracked.
We need DRM to save us from piracy. Companies need to track our
movements on our desktops. It does not need to be evil people to
generate a bad system. It can easily be people who encourage models
which suit their own interests, and for whom people are abstracted
data and implications IRL are someone else's problem.
A distributed community needs freedom to work. It also poses the
challenges that there will be a lot of noise and finding the signal
will be a challenge. Finding what is important and what is of systemic
value and what is of local or transient value.
How do we govern with more local data points and personal perspectives?
> I am worried that this agitational propaganda is simply part of the
> conspiracy.. a conspiracy within a conspiracy if you will! Because it leaves
> me feeling even more terrified than the unrealistic terrorism they talk to
> us about - the suicide bombers in Sydney etc.
Probably possibly who knows.
I would say that all of our ideas and perspectives are a jumble of
what we think and what we hear or see or read. We have a good
understanding about how it feels to be ourselves but have abdicated
our understanding of the impact of our collective actions on others to
our governments. Our governments have in turn looked to economic and
political models which are a good fit for the lobby groups which fund
or advise them. Systemically we are without ecological and social
For me the evident horrors are sufficiently explicit.
Our nations admit to deconstructing other nations for oil.
This is destruction of communities for profit.
If the 9/11 thing is true the nationality of the people hurt is
different but the abuse of humanity is the same. I dont need the 9/11
issue to be friendly fire to be appalled at what our governments are
doing. (I would however be further appalled and consider democracy
completely undone if a government could be so disconnected from its
own people.) It would mean that the damage of that kind of thinking is
hitting at home, but it does not mean that the thinking is different.
I do think we are 'at risk' from the thinking of our governments
because in some kind of fundamental way I feel 'they know not what
they do' and they are doing it on a global scale. In extension this
maps to 'we know not what we do'. I don't have any answers but I do
feel that getting some tangible ecological and humane principles into
our political and economic systems is important. It is hard to have
faith that the current systems would not warp things but we do need to
re-engage with politics and be more responsible for who and how we
> The real terrorists are
> amongst us, it could be you, it could be me, it could be Google, it could be
> Blogger... divide and conquer - I'm so terrorised, that I think I'm gunna
> shoot my neighbours family just because.. and everything is going to go to
> shit, so the army can come in and make it right - whether we like it or
The real terrorists are us because we are particpating in economies
which are built on logics which are destructive. It is you, it is me,
it is likely to be hard for google to avoid being a part of it because
they are an aggregation of data that would be very attractive, blogger
is a part of that aggregation. The problem is more that we accept the
systems and economies which we are a part of and find it collectively
and individually too hard to tell our global self 'don't be evil'. At
least one person in Google has had that thought and understands that
risk. what about all the other systems we interact with?
Is it possible for distributed communities to do better? Are we able
to be more just as a distributed community. Do we care sufficiently
for our neighbours to act in their best interests when that might not
be in our own best interests?
Check out the Confessions of an Economic Hitman, Information
Feudalism, and watch Lessig over the next few years as he shifts gears
from IP to corruption.
We generally do not use armies. But we are still systemically destructive.
how can distributed communities seed and nurture love so that it
manifests in each individuals local community? As it is now, the
Internet is notorious for dragging us away from our local communities,
and interrupting our feeble attempts at nurturing a connectedness on a
local scale... the information, the channels, the things I see online
are so customised to me as an individual, and only relatable with my
online communities (TALO) that I struggle to find anything in common
with the people I work with, the people Iive next door to, the people
in the town I live... how can the experiences that we share as a
distributed community become a shared experience with those around us?
Or the other way around?
Yes Leigh this is the big question for me. Can we, if free,
distributed, local, connected, do better for people globablly, and for
the ecology globally, which we must represent as if it was our
neighbour. It does not have a node or a voice.
I dont know what this means for government or education or economics,
It may still need ways to aggregate in order to find signal from
noise, but we do need to be careful of our freedoms and our ability to
hear other people and perspectives. To examine how these concerns and
ideas are aggregated so that our voices as systems are gentle and
just. We need to tell our selfish gene that it needs a longer term
I want to be messy, free, quirky, exploratory, compassionate,
comfortable, loving, creative, safe, happy, and want that for other
people. I want that kind of scope for ecology too but I can't express
that as well. Biodiversity and quality of life, heritage seeds,
organics and a respect for an interwoven biological habitat as an
international treasure and system we need to rebuild.
For me the terror in our world is facing self as system.
My hope is that we can evolve a new self and sustainable ecological
and humane system which I can be a member of even while I am probably
flawed and clumsy but trying hard to be a constructive entity within a
/me leaves you all in peace for the weekend and apologises for yet
another wander into off topic =).
"If you have to choose between conspiracy and f*ck-up, its f*ck-up every time."
to quote the Author of the book "Spycatcher" : -
"If you have to choose between conspiracy and f*ck-up, its f*ck-up every time."
'Zeitgeist' was an interesting watch from a Bible College perspective
(my context)...! I'm not really interested in sharing my thoughts on
it, suffice to say that most of us will indeed believe what we want
to. Just as I've had the patience to watch it, I suggest that many of
its proponents would do well to patiently seek out what Christianity
really has at its core.
Sorry guys, not much to do with TALO here... and not much to do with
evangelical Christianity either ;o)
Perhaps part of the value of Web 2.0 is that enables discussion such
as this - which is the only TALO-related comment I can think of!
Bible College of New Zealand
Private Bag 93104, Waitakere 0650
(+64) 9 837 9752
"Above the clouds the Son is shining"
skype - leigh_blackall
Let me give you an example. The column I wrote about Loose Change two weeks ago The column I wrote about Loose Change two weeks ago generated 777 posts on Comment is Free, which is almost a record. Most of them were furious.. The response from a producer of the film, published last week, attracted 467(2). On the same day I published an article about a genuine, demonstrable conspiracy: a spy network feeding confidential information from an arms control campaign to Britain's biggest weapons manufacturer, BAE. It drew 60 responses(3). The members of the 9/11 cult weren't interested. If they were, they might have had to do something. The great virtue of a fake conspiracy is that it calls on you to do nothing.
agree, disagree, or otherwise, 911 + internet = new breed of
"truth-seeking" and political activism
IMHO the best evidence of problems with US govt version of 911 is the
evidence produced by the US govt itself - any empirically minded person
who reads the official report, i would suggest, would be left with concerns
disinformists wedge conspiracy theories by asking for their evidence -
problem is the lack of released and mass of destroyed evidence, so of
course little can be proven; but lack of evidence/explanation provokes
questions which, left unanswered, evolve into conspiracy theories
i would like for example to see more evidence in order to accept the US
govt version of 911, e.g.,
- proper footage from the 100s of cameras of a plane flying into the
- explanation for why virtually all forensic evidence was immediately
shipped away and melted
- explanation for the difference b/w plane strike times and seismic
- ... (this is a very long list requesting transparency)...
(was AWB a f/up...a conspiracy? or just corruption? corruption i
suspect is smoke indicating (potential for) fire. leigh, maybe lessig
could do with your talents and interests as he tackles corruption:
Apparently he's dead.
I also googled the latest conspiracy on the net, believe it or not -
'Man eating badgers!'
I got this ' from the major players
Obviousily two ridulous statements, I would hope that any student I
would teach would have the critical thinking capacity to determine
this story as muddling trite even if it is from the BBC.
One of my favorite shows is 'Three and a half men' staring that guy
Charlie Sheen, a celebrity who like many regular people don't get it
about 911. People are asking basic questions, some like Charlie ask
well informed intelligent technical questions. Charlie Sheen is a
celeb he gets heard he get's exposure...but he's/ we're still non the
For me the salient point of this thread, is the importance of students
questioning the authority of their sources, Zeitgeist Movie, BBC,
Charlie Sheen, you or me, however unpalatable.
If you're interested in Charlie's questions check it out
If you're interested in CNN check Bill Oreily's take - 'Sheen won't
Perhaps intelligent media studies/ sociology/ history students if
having listened to both men would see the logic of the star of Scary
Movie 4 against CNN's main anchor! Or vice versa (I doubt it)
As a teacher I'd like to be able to reference wikipedia to be able to
give students the chance to question and pull apart a recognised piece
of engaging media on such an important subject area like Zeitgeist
On the 'free and open' wikipedia the zeitgeist movie page is removed
and locked down (After only a few days) - The Zeitgeist movie topic -
whether I agree with it or not has no voice in wikipedia, in my mind
that sucks for educators, learning, wikipedia you, me, students,
knowledge (and the future).
Make what you will of it.
On Jul 16, 2:07 pm, "peter allen" <pgp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I believe Lenin's grave is a communist plot.'(
i don't have strong feelings about this but i do have some questions
what about people who say that the holocaust didn't happen or that there are lizards on the dark side of the moon who are in cahoots with the US govt? what if they had "proof" and were really good storytellers? should it be in wikipedia just cos a bunch of people think it? (mind you, just had a quick random search of the site and found more than a few popular religions so i can already see the flaw in my question...).
i'm interested in why they removed the article but not outraged - i sort of don't care cos wikipedia to me is just another website, much as it's a mostly good website. the internet (so far) is the only real place where there's true freedom to publish whatever you want and i think we need to remember that when we support sites that purport to be truly democratic/open. (and anyway, by now there'd be squillions of people who saved the wikipedia page so that particular horse has already bolted and will reappear everywhere - great viral marketing strategy, actually...).
the second thing i wonder is, would you want wikipedia to be "THE" source for all information? or even most information? that, i reckon, would be dangerous, so i'm always sanguine when i hear about kerfuffles in wikipedia cos i reckon the longer this sort of thing happens, the longer we keep remembering that wikipedia is just another site. i would really dread the day where any site becomes so important that we forget that.
and thanks for the warning about badgers - always the furry ones you gotta watch, i reckon
I thought that artichoke had blogged on the way that we abdicate our
humanity to institutions but I can't find it. A lot of artichoke's
pythonesque sketches of education and society feel like they are a
wake up call that we can be human without mediation now.
for me the core experience is feeling that i am a paid up commuter on
a train without a driver going somewhere unhelpful. the other
passengers on the train seem reasonable and negotiable and we are all
wondering how the heck to make a different outcome.
i dont think that any one of us driving the train would make things better
but i do wonder if we were more involved in engineering the vehicles
and their goals and costs that we would have something less dire as a
being a fan of foss i can see that great things start from getting
ones hands dirty trying to make small changes consistent with a
community goal. i guess i am hoping that i can do some of that as a
designer or as a social critter rather than as a coder.
i want to feel like i can be happy and at peace with the things i am
This series of videos by a programmer are about the humanness of the
work and how it impacts social space.
Alan Kay on education and air guitar.
Eben Moglen a lawyer who is able to see law as a function of society
and not the other way about.
There are so many people working collaboratively to make open code who
are thinking about who they are and how that makes community. how it
impacts parenting. a chap who is a coder and a father said to me at
linux conf last year that he looks at foss as a thought related to
parenting. what kind of parenting can he provide which enables his son
to be free and responsible for the freedom of others.
i think it is ironic that geeks who are deemed nonsocial are making
headway where other sectors are too embedded in the hypersocial bling
of broadcast subscription to be able to think outside that context.
perhaps as they say its the quiet ones youve gotto watch =).
danah boyd is another
Capital, unhinged from social and environmental responsibility, is
running amok in our name. What do we want for ourselves? What are we
able to make collaboratively? Are we as distributed community better
able to function justly and sustainably than aggregated business
interests? What does that mean in a day by day individual and personal
sense? Are wa able to adjust the existing groups and their works so
that they are re-hinged, regruntled, and responsive to environmentals
and social costs and needs?
Its certainly time for a change. But I think the change needed is
bigger than team jumpers. http://www.re-public.gr/en/?cat=4
> On the 'free and open' wikipedia the zeitgeist movie page is removed
> and locked down (After only a few days) - The Zeitgeist movie topic -
> whether I agree with it or not has no voice in wikipedia, in my mind
> that sucks for educators, learning, wikipedia you, me, students,
> knowledge (and the future).
im sure it could be covered on wikia where point of view is the norm
instead of neutral point of view. wikipedia is not the only tool in