Zeitgeist - A good google movie

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sparker

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Jul 12, 2007, 4:13:33 AM7/12/07
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http://digg.com/videos/educational/Zeitgeist_Movie_Must_See_Documentary

The link of new movie to education may not be immediately apparent but
is covered at 1hr 34min. Part 2 and 3 worth the wait. Currently the
page is being considered for deletion from wikipedia?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitgeist_the_Movie

Whether you agree or not it's a somber thought provoking watch...

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/statement.htm

Check it out

Leigh Blackall

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Jul 13, 2007, 10:15:10 PM7/13/07
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I am seriously reconsidering everything I do and think after this. I must keep love in mind, heart and hand while I fend off the overwhelming fear that much of this movie brings to me..

This is a long movie, and one that I recomend you download rather than stream. You better be comfortable, warm and secure when you watch it, and have time to spend with yourself and then loved ones afterwards.

http://learnonline.wordpress.com/2007/07/14/watch-this-read-the-references-and-tell-me-you-are-not-moved/

Thanks Sparker for the pointer. I dunno what to think - in search of the truth

James Neill

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Jul 13, 2007, 10:56:44 PM7/13/07
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i haven't watched it yet, but if you want to make a 2nd cup of coffee
and settle in for a story which will continue to cause discomfort about
the dominant paradigm, check out william rodriguez' eye witness account
of 911 on google video (he was a WTC janitor for 20 years, rescued
people, was lauded by Bush and co, etc.... except whoops he hasn't shut
up about what he heard, saw, smelt, etc.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4380137365762802294

i've watched/reach a fair bit of 911 conspiracy stuff
(http://del.icio.us/jtneill/911) and at the very least it seems to me
that an honest, thinking citizen has to be concerned about the C-grade
spy thriller that is the official 911 report
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911

unlearning is perhaps the most important educational objective of our time

Leigh Blackall

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Jul 14, 2007, 1:31:00 AM7/14/07
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What I can't work out is:

So, there clearly is an evil conspiracy at the top. At best, they know something that we don't, and it is forcing them to do terrible things. Maybe that something is peak oil..? at worst, they are greedy imperialists.
But in all these movies I have seen so far - there is the claim that it is a secret. It doesn't appear to be a secret! The consolidated evidence and agit' prop is EVERYWHERE!
I am worried that this agitational propaganda is simply part of the conspiracy.. a conspiracy within a conspiracy if you will! Because it leaves me feeling even more terrified than the unrealistic terrorism they talk to us about - the suicide bombers in Sydney etc. The real terrorists are amongst us, it could be you, it could be me, it could be Google, it could be Blogger... devide and conquer - I'm so terrorised, that I think I'm gunna shoot my neighbours family just because.. and everything is going to go to shit, so the army can come in and make it right - whether we like it or not...

Janet Hawtin

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Jul 14, 2007, 1:31:55 AM7/14/07
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On 7/14/07, James Neill <li...@wilderdom.com> wrote:

> unlearning is perhaps the most important educational objective of our time

or learning to govern in a free, participative, humane, ecological way
at the current scale. I think that is what is very apparently broken.
I think our current systems are unable to make good or safe decisions
at the scale or abstraction level that they use to enable global
decision making.

I do not know whether distributed communities are going to be better
able to discuss, decide and implement better outcomes for communities
and for our planet's ecology. But for all our sakes I hope we give it
a good try.

Janet

Leigh Blackall

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Jul 14, 2007, 1:44:02 AM7/14/07
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the movie - zeitgiest, is full of subtle and not so subtle hints on what we should do... love is the most pressed one. in a quote of poor old Jimi Hendrix, we need the power of love to defeat the love of power.. for a long time (all my life really) I don't think I understood that. It it didn't help that Hendrix, Lennon et all were simply turned into marketing vehicles to me and my generation. So the truth in love escaped me.. how can distributed communities seed and nurture love so that it manifests in each individuals local community? As it is now, the Internet is notorious for dragging us away from our local communities, and interrupting our feeble attempts at nurturing a connectedness on a local scale... the information, the channels, the things I see online are so customised to me as an individual, and only relatable with my online communities (TALO) that I struggle to find anything in common with the people I work with, the people Iive next door to, the people in the town I live... how can the experiences that we share as a distributed community become a shared experience with those around us? Or the other way around?

Janet Hawtin

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Jul 14, 2007, 2:44:47 AM7/14/07
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On 7/14/07, Leigh Blackall <leighb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What I can't work out is:
>
> So, there clearly is an evil conspiracy at the top.

Swap that for a model of governance that abstracts the ecology and
humanity out of the equations used to govern. Math is abstractable,
and the diffuse interests of people and ecology are abstracted out as
noise because they do not quantify well. Profits quantify well. People
with cash are effective at representing their own interests. This is
good business sense. It has costs which are not represented in the
models used to govern.

> At best, they know something that we don't, and it is forcing them to do terrible things. Maybe that something is peak oil..? at worst, they are greedy imperialists.

People acting in their own best interests.

> But in all these movies I have seen so far - there is the claim that it is a
> secret. It doesn't appear to be a secret! The consolidated evidence and
> agit' prop is EVERYWHERE!

Fear, anger, and division keep us all close to the systems we look to
for protection.
A lot of our freedom to discuss and share and participate is
criticised/opposed as a challenge to our safety. Our ISPs need to
track and control our traffic. Our conversations need to be tracked.
We need DRM to save us from piracy. Companies need to track our
movements on our desktops. It does not need to be evil people to
generate a bad system. It can easily be people who encourage models
which suit their own interests, and for whom people are abstracted
data and implications IRL are someone else's problem.

A distributed community needs freedom to work. It also poses the
challenges that there will be a lot of noise and finding the signal
will be a challenge. Finding what is important and what is of systemic
value and what is of local or transient value.
How do we govern with more local data points and personal perspectives?

> I am worried that this agitational propaganda is simply part of the
> conspiracy.. a conspiracy within a conspiracy if you will! Because it leaves
> me feeling even more terrified than the unrealistic terrorism they talk to
> us about - the suicide bombers in Sydney etc.

Probably possibly who knows.
I would say that all of our ideas and perspectives are a jumble of
what we think and what we hear or see or read. We have a good
understanding about how it feels to be ourselves but have abdicated
our understanding of the impact of our collective actions on others to
our governments. Our governments have in turn looked to economic and
political models which are a good fit for the lobby groups which fund
or advise them. Systemically we are without ecological and social
conscience.

For me the evident horrors are sufficiently explicit.
Our nations admit to deconstructing other nations for oil.
This is destruction of communities for profit.
If the 9/11 thing is true the nationality of the people hurt is
different but the abuse of humanity is the same. I dont need the 9/11
issue to be friendly fire to be appalled at what our governments are
doing. (I would however be further appalled and consider democracy
completely undone if a government could be so disconnected from its
own people.) It would mean that the damage of that kind of thinking is
hitting at home, but it does not mean that the thinking is different.
I do think we are 'at risk' from the thinking of our governments
because in some kind of fundamental way I feel 'they know not what
they do' and they are doing it on a global scale. In extension this
maps to 'we know not what we do'. I don't have any answers but I do
feel that getting some tangible ecological and humane principles into
our political and economic systems is important. It is hard to have
faith that the current systems would not warp things but we do need to
re-engage with politics and be more responsible for who and how we
are.

> The real terrorists are
> amongst us, it could be you, it could be me, it could be Google, it could be

> Blogger... divide and conquer - I'm so terrorised, that I think I'm gunna


> shoot my neighbours family just because.. and everything is going to go to
> shit, so the army can come in and make it right - whether we like it or
> not...

The real terrorists are us because we are particpating in economies
which are built on logics which are destructive. It is you, it is me,
it is likely to be hard for google to avoid being a part of it because
they are an aggregation of data that would be very attractive, blogger
is a part of that aggregation. The problem is more that we accept the
systems and economies which we are a part of and find it collectively
and individually too hard to tell our global self 'don't be evil'. At
least one person in Google has had that thought and understands that
risk. what about all the other systems we interact with?

Is it possible for distributed communities to do better? Are we able
to be more just as a distributed community. Do we care sufficiently
for our neighbours to act in their best interests when that might not
be in our own best interests?
Check out the Confessions of an Economic Hitman, Information
Feudalism, and watch Lessig over the next few years as he shifts gears
from IP to corruption.
We generally do not use armies. But we are still systemically destructive.

Leigh:


how can distributed communities seed and nurture love so that it
manifests in each individuals local community? As it is now, the
Internet is notorious for dragging us away from our local communities,
and interrupting our feeble attempts at nurturing a connectedness on a
local scale... the information, the channels, the things I see online
are so customised to me as an individual, and only relatable with my
online communities (TALO) that I struggle to find anything in common
with the people I work with, the people Iive next door to, the people
in the town I live... how can the experiences that we share as a
distributed community become a shared experience with those around us?
Or the other way around?

Yes Leigh this is the big question for me. Can we, if free,
distributed, local, connected, do better for people globablly, and for
the ecology globally, which we must represent as if it was our
neighbour. It does not have a node or a voice.
I dont know what this means for government or education or economics,
It may still need ways to aggregate in order to find signal from
noise, but we do need to be careful of our freedoms and our ability to
hear other people and perspectives. To examine how these concerns and
ideas are aggregated so that our voices as systems are gentle and
just. We need to tell our selfish gene that it needs a longer term
view.

I want to be messy, free, quirky, exploratory, compassionate,
comfortable, loving, creative, safe, happy, and want that for other
people. I want that kind of scope for ecology too but I can't express
that as well. Biodiversity and quality of life, heritage seeds,
organics and a respect for an interwoven biological habitat as an
international treasure and system we need to rebuild.

For me the terror in our world is facing self as system.
My hope is that we can evolve a new self and sustainable ecological
and humane system which I can be a member of even while I am probably
flawed and clumsy but trying hard to be a constructive entity within a
whole.

/me leaves you all in peace for the weekend and apologises for yet
another wander into off topic =).

Bill Kerr

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Jul 15, 2007, 8:20:00 PM7/15/07
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I watched over half of this movie, selectively

conspiracy theory as a world view is not convincing IMHO but it would require a lot of hard analytical work to go through and systematically counter the various dramatic viewpoints expressed in the movie - it's easier to make a dramatic claim than to refute one

I'd like to disassociate myself from the opinion that this movie is a credible interpretation of history in a general sense, even though some of the positions it takes may be credible in isolation

history in general cannot be explained by conspiracy theory

- Bill
--
Bill Kerr
http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/
http://www.users.on.net/~billkerr/
skype: billkerr2006



On 7/12/07, sparker <stevenray...@gmail.com> wrote:

peter allen

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Jul 15, 2007, 8:27:04 PM7/15/07
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to quote the Author of the book "Spycatcher" : -

"If you have to choose between conspiracy and f*ck-up, its f*ck-up every time."

Leigh Blackall

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Jul 15, 2007, 10:28:31 PM7/15/07
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Bill, I am spending some time following the links and so on. I'm not going to disassociate myself or actively seek to "systematically counter the various dramatic viewpoints", I am having a look though, one thing that Sparker and I are looking at is why Wikipedia deleted the entry for the movie.. totally unrelated, but learning motivated by the movie. All the movie attempts to do is motivate us to ask questions - good questions too? What is religion? what are its origins? What happened in 9/11? What is the reserve bank's function? what is currency and legal tender? How much can we rely on mega media? and so on. These are classic Teaching as a subversive activity, or inquiry education questions.. what is it you are disassociating from again? facts or questions?

I dunno why in the same breath you say:
  • I haven't watched it all
  • I'm not gunna check the facts
  • but I declare a disassociation from these facts
Surely you can be more constructive? I think it is a very useful tool for stimulating inquiry education actually. Right up there with the classics..

is there a god?
who shot JFK?
did humans land on the moon - or if they did, did they really broadcast it live?
what started WW1?
what caused Pearl Harbour?

etc

On 7/16/07, peter allen <pgp...@gmail.com> wrote:

to quote the Author of the book "Spycatcher" : -

"If you have to choose between conspiracy and f*ck-up, its f*ck-up every time."

Mark Nichols

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Jul 15, 2007, 11:09:25 PM7/15/07
to Teach and Learn Online
Hi all,

'Zeitgeist' was an interesting watch from a Bible College perspective
(my context)...! I'm not really interested in sharing my thoughts on
it, suffice to say that most of us will indeed believe what we want
to. Just as I've had the patience to watch it, I suggest that many of
its proponents would do well to patiently seek out what Christianity
really has at its core.

Sorry guys, not much to do with TALO here... and not much to do with
evangelical Christianity either ;o)

Perhaps part of the value of Web 2.0 is that enables discussion such
as this - which is the only TALO-related comment I can think of!

Mark.

---------------------------
Mark Nichols
E-Learning Specialist
Bible College of New Zealand
Private Bag 93104, Waitakere 0650
(+64) 9 837 9752
027 6424145
http://ebcnzer.blogspot.com

"Above the clouds the Son is shining"

Bill Kerr

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Jul 15, 2007, 11:13:47 PM7/15/07
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leigh wrote:
> All the movie attempts to do is motivate us to ask questions - good questions too

that is far from the truth, the movie puts a position, that 9/11, Pearl Harbour and lots more are conspiracies, that the ruling class or US Imperialism has the capacity to successfully carry out such conspiracies

my position is that US imperialism cannot do this, for example, if they could orchestrate 9/11 then why can't they orchestrate something much simpler, the discovery of WMDs in Iraq? (I guess that's all part of the conspiracy, eh)

but more than that I think there are other ways of analysing events that to me make much  more sense

I would like to look into it more deeply but given we have limited time on this earth I prefer to spend my time on issues that I feel are more productive - but what you say in this respect is fair comment - I can't reasonably expect you to abandon such notions with systematic refutation, but I don't have the time at present to provide such refutations - as I said it is far easier to say something dramatic than to refute such statements

I did some googling to find a decent critique but couldn't find one

leigh, your position in this post is more measured and reasonably than in your earlier posts

- Bill

Leigh Blackall

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Jul 15, 2007, 11:34:08 PM7/15/07
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We could model inquirey learning through wikis.. so Bill, you have the time for a few emails - maybe just two links that expand on your position, then Mark a few more that expand on his important perspectives, Steve and I about Wikipedia deletion

We could start a wiki that investigates the claims one by one, through a wiki.. we could even let it go in many directions..

But keeping to my job description at the moment - Steve and I have started a wikieducator activity page that looks at Wikipedia's deletion policy - using the Zeitgeist deletion as an example. We could even go further with this activity and actiualy start the wiki that looks at the facts and claims in the movie - the movies home page has made a start on this with its clarifications page, and its sources page. We could simply copy paste these for a start!


skype - leigh_blackall
http://learnonline.wordpress.com

rgrozdanic

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Jul 15, 2007, 11:34:54 PM7/15/07
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whatever the case, i reckon monbiot has the right idea. 
http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2007/02/20/bayoneting-a-scarecrow/

fear can become paralysing, which results in no action and plays in the hands of those who seek to terrorise. conspiracies are also more attractive than garden variety stupidity or greed.

am particularly struck by this paragraph is his piece:

Let me give you an example. The column I wrote about Loose Change two weeks ago The column I wrote about Loose Change two weeks ago generated 777 posts on Comment is Free, which is almost a record. Most of them were furious.. The response from a producer of the film, published last week, attracted 467(2). On the same day I published an article about a genuine, demonstrable conspiracy: a spy network feeding confidential information from an arms control campaign to Britain's biggest weapons manufacturer, BAE. It drew 60 responses(3). The members of the 9/11 cult weren't interested. If they were, they might have had to do something. The great virtue of a fake conspiracy is that it calls on you to do nothing.

while he's (unnecessarily) withering towards conspiracy theorists, i like his reasoning overall whether or not these doccos are largely true or false.

r

James Neill

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Jul 15, 2007, 11:47:28 PM7/15/07
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re: connection to TALO

agree, disagree, or otherwise, 911 + internet = new breed of
"truth-seeking" and political activism

IMHO the best evidence of problems with US govt version of 911 is the
evidence produced by the US govt itself - any empirically minded person
who reads the official report, i would suggest, would be left with concerns

disinformists wedge conspiracy theories by asking for their evidence -
problem is the lack of released and mass of destroyed evidence, so of
course little can be proven; but lack of evidence/explanation provokes
questions which, left unanswered, evolve into conspiracy theories

i would like for example to see more evidence in order to accept the US
govt version of 911, e.g.,
- proper footage from the 100s of cameras of a plane flying into the
pentagon
- explanation for why virtually all forensic evidence was immediately
shipped away and melted
- explanation for the difference b/w plane strike times and seismic
spikes, etc.
- ... (this is a very long list requesting transparency)...

(was AWB a f/up...a conspiracy? or just corruption? corruption i
suspect is smoke indicating (potential for) fire. leigh, maybe lessig
could do with your talents and interests as he tackles corruption:
http://lessig.org/blog/2007/06/required_reading_the_next_10_y_1.html)

peter allen

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Jul 16, 2007, 12:07:20 AM7/16/07
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I believe Lenin's grave is a communist plot.

minh mcCloy

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Jul 16, 2007, 12:18:23 AM7/16/07
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lol & lol

On 7/16/07, peter allen <pgp...@gmail.com> wrote:

minh mcCloy

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Jul 16, 2007, 12:28:30 AM7/16/07
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lol & lol

On 7/16/07, peter allen <pgp...@gmail.com> wrote:

Leigh Blackall

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Jul 16, 2007, 2:35:48 AM7/16/07
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Umm conspiracy 'theories' and the detail of the content aside - it has many beautiful scenes and edits this Zeitgeist. The opening sequence is one of the better treatments of an otherwise over done collage of war scenes. The long take of the strange, square shape is interesting,,, a hypnotic effect making ready the shock of the war scenes, and then - through the smoke of the last explosion, a beautiful image of Earth, then the universe... there are lots of these little break aways through out, some make me cringe a little - but no more than in just about every film I see these days - so aside from being a pretty stimulating piece for inquiry learning (is there anyone who does that?) it would also be a useful study in editing - especially as so much of the footage that has been sampled is very familiar to us - and agitation propaganda
 
I'm disappointed with the responses from TALO so far, the belittling and unreferenced remarks around conspiracy theories, and the unwillingness to take the energy and relevance behind this film and turn it into something.. inquiry, film study, wiki, am I really the only person who takes inspiration from this film? Are we really all this desensitized?...
--
--
Leigh Blackall
+64(0)21736539

rgrozdanic

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Jul 16, 2007, 4:29:51 AM7/16/07
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hey, leigh - i'm not belittling you at all - as you know, i'm as glum and disturbed as you are about a whole bunch of stuff that isn't even hidden or contested let alone the dramatic stuff.  my reason for posting the monbiot article was that his reasoning helps me get a grip.

whatever the case he makes sense (to me, anyway) and he's a journalist i admire and trust. i also think his point about things happening all around us that are starky disturbing (but unnoticed because they've become so common) is an important one - i really hate that stupid frog metaphor (boiling to death in a pot but not noticing the temperature change) but it seems to be an apt one for how we seem to ignore incremental changes, even if they're corrosive. 

in terms of learning, action, etc - i'd be interested in hearing more about the psychology of learning and behaviour - the sorts of things james and others might be able to enlighten us about (such as the tendency for people to prefer to believe what they already believe and preference stuff that supports it etc) and how this plays into how we make decisions about what we do, believe, learn and so on - a whole bunch of human behaviour that can be related to this issue

james? others?

r


On 7/16/07, Leigh Blackall <leighb...@gmail.com> wrote:

sparker

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Jul 16, 2007, 4:47:36 AM7/16/07
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OK I googled 'I believe Lenin's grave is a communist plot' and got
this.

http://tinyurl.com/34tc73

Apparently he's dead.

I also googled the latest conspiracy on the net, believe it or not -
'Man eating badgers!'

I got this ' from the major players

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22056697-2,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6295138.stm
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2007/07/13/1183833734411.html
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/2007/07/12/basra_badger_rumour_mill.html

Obviousily two ridulous statements, I would hope that any student I
would teach would have the critical thinking capacity to determine
this story as muddling trite even if it is from the BBC.


One of my favorite shows is 'Three and a half men' staring that guy
Charlie Sheen, a celebrity who like many regular people don't get it
about 911. People are asking basic questions, some like Charlie ask
well informed intelligent technical questions. Charlie Sheen is a
celeb he gets heard he get's exposure...but he's/ we're still non the
wiser. Whatever.

For me the salient point of this thread, is the importance of students
questioning the authority of their sources, Zeitgeist Movie, BBC,
Charlie Sheen, you or me, however unpalatable.

If you're interested in Charlie's questions check it out
http://tinyurl.com/2449ta
http://tinyurl.com/2754og


If you're interested in CNN check Bill Oreily's take - 'Sheen won't
come back'
http://tinyurl.com/2gcmqc

Perhaps intelligent media studies/ sociology/ history students if
having listened to both men would see the logic of the star of Scary
Movie 4 against CNN's main anchor! Or vice versa (I doubt it)

As a teacher I'd like to be able to reference wikipedia to be able to
give students the chance to question and pull apart a recognised piece
of engaging media on such an important subject area like Zeitgeist
without ridicule.

On the 'free and open' wikipedia the zeitgeist movie page is removed
and locked down (After only a few days) - The Zeitgeist movie topic -
whether I agree with it or not has no voice in wikipedia, in my mind
that sucks for educators, learning, wikipedia you, me, students,
knowledge (and the future).

lol lol


Make what you will of it.

On Jul 16, 2:07 pm, "peter allen" <pgp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I believe Lenin's grave is a communist plot.'(

rgrozdanic

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Jul 16, 2007, 4:48:06 AM7/16/07
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and just on another note briefly...

i think it's fairly well established that TALO is the sort of place where language gets hurled about as often as it is carefully folded into shapes that will inform and enlighten.  i'd hate it if we ever lost or successfully punished that sense of abandon or impishness that often presents here.

leigh's comment about fascism was one such time where i think it was obvious he was casting his net wide hoping to ignite some vigourous discussion rather than attempting to alert the world to neilsen's dark side.  ditto with alex and his famous rubber bands. if anything, i'm feeling a bit disappointed that it's so long between smackdowns - the lively banter that, through respectful boisterousness finds some kind of depth in conversation and helps all of us see different facets of an issue or thing (or at the very least, entertains).

let's chill out/wind up/play more or something...

r




rgrozdanic

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Jul 16, 2007, 5:14:04 AM7/16/07
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i don't have strong feelings about this but i do have some questions

what about people who say that the holocaust didn't happen or that there are lizards on the dark side of the moon who are in cahoots with the US govt? what if they had "proof" and were really good storytellers? should it be in wikipedia just cos a bunch of people think it?  (mind you, just had a quick random search of the site and found more than a few popular religions so i can already see the flaw in my question...).  i'm interested in why they removed the article but not outraged - i sort of don't care cos wikipedia to me is just another website, much as it's a mostly good website. the internet (so far) is the only real place where there's true freedom to publish whatever you want and i think we need to remember that when we support sites that purport to be truly democratic/open. (and anyway, by now there'd be squillions of people who saved the wikipedia page so that particular horse has already bolted and will reappear everywhere - great viral marketing strategy, actually...).

the second thing i wonder is, would you want wikipedia to be "THE" source for all information? or even most information? that, i reckon, would be dangerous, so i'm always sanguine when i hear about kerfuffles in wikipedia cos i reckon the longer this sort of thing happens, the longer we keep remembering that wikipedia is just another site. i would really dread the day where any site becomes so important that we forget that.

and thanks for the warning about badgers - always the furry ones you gotta watch, i reckon

r

craig bottomley

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Jul 16, 2007, 5:18:36 AM7/16/07
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time for my 5 cents worth....

i watched this from a perspective that i guess is similar to mark nichols - the modern christian viewpoint - and whilst not able to agree with a lot of what was being said i did find a lot of interesting stuff.

i found it interesting that the point of the narrator was often spoken, accompanied by a black/blank screen - giving me a feeling of immediate mistrust.

i found it interesting that the disturbing images, emotive music and pretty cut ins and outs went for some 5 minutes before there was any use of spoken word.

i found it interesting that there was no consideration of an alternative point of view, only the use of manipulated images and sound bytes to portray the "other side" in a negative light.

i found it interesting that in this current climate of international religious unrest, the movie seemed to be placing the majority of mainstream religious groups - christian, muslim, buddhist etc into the same basket as having ripped off the (egyptian???) sun god worship.

all of which reminds me of the studies that i did at uni around the ideas of media manipulation of the masses and in particular the idea of propaganda...

now all this doesn't mean that the movie hasn't had me thinking, and it doesn't mean that i don't agree with anything that it had to say, but it does mean that i watched it while wearing my cynic's hat, and that i have therfore drawn from it in very narrow restricted ways.

leigh is right in saying that its all about love - and the movie is right in suggesting that organised religion has a lot to answer for in its ongoing quest for world domination.  the fact that wars can be fought as 'holy wars', that the crusades were justified as being 'of god', that the 'war on terror' is being sold to us a war to rid the world of evil and to make the world right with god, all make me want to scream nasties from the tops of mountains.... but maybe this isn't the place to continue this (but i'm not gonna retract it either).

as a piece of post modern, alternate viewpoint, fringe dwelling movie making, this would be an amazing tool in the classroom for initiating debate on a whole range of issues from stuff around values and morals all the way down to ripping it apart for its purely technical worth.

hey rose - funny how things come around innit... four days chatting about the end of the world and now this - its gotta be a sign....

botts

craig bottomley

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Jul 16, 2007, 5:28:39 AM7/16/07
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maybe this needs to become another thread??? but whilst wikipedia is a site that has lots of information on it, that information in fact comes from a lot of different sources.  its like the collectivist, hive mind thing, but the wikipedia site becomes some sort of focus for all that hiving.  so, if they purport to be democratic and are merely a store house for information contributed (and possibly created) by joe average, then i think there are questions to be raised about the removing of content placed on the site.  is it like google censoring china???  or is it even just like the zeitgeist movie itself, showing selected versions of the truth....

botts

On 7/16/07, rgrozdanic <rgroz...@gmail.com> wrote:

Steven Parker

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Jul 16, 2007, 5:29:20 AM7/16/07
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On 7/16/07, rgrozdanic <rgroz...@gmail.com > wrote:
i don't have strong feelings about this but i do have some questions

-OK

what about people who say that the holocaust didn't happen or that there are lizards on the dark side of the moon who are in cahoots with the US govt? what if they had "proof" and were really good storytellers? should it be in wikipedia just cos a bunch of people think it?  (mind you, just had a quick random search of the site and found more than a few popular religions so i can already see the flaw in my question...). 

-I don't know
 

i'm interested in why they removed the article but not outraged - i sort of don't care cos wikipedia to me is just another website, much as it's a mostly good website. the internet (so far) is the only real place where there's true freedom to publish whatever you want and i think we need to remember that when we support sites that purport to be truly democratic/open. (and anyway, by now there'd be squillions of people who saved the wikipedia page so that particular horse has already bolted and will reappear everywhere - great viral marketing strategy, actually...).

I'm interested as well , I have saved the original it was a well written overview with references, will follow up with the administrator on why it was deleted. It's a good movie to watch and obviousily resonates with people why take the page down?

the second thing i wonder is, would you want wikipedia to be "THE" source for all information? or even most information? that, i reckon, would be dangerous, so i'm always sanguine when i hear about kerfuffles in wikipedia cos i reckon the longer this sort of thing happens, the longer we keep remembering that wikipedia is just another site. i would really dread the day where any site becomes so important that we forget that.

I don't want wikipedia to be the source, however consider how many people go to wikipedia for information, it's an important shaper of public opinion and awareness.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,129135-c,sites/article.html

and thanks for the warning about badgers - always the furry ones you gotta watch, i reckon

r

lol

Janet Hawtin

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Jul 16, 2007, 5:36:39 AM7/16/07
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On 7/16/07, rgrozdanic <rgroz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> hey, leigh - i'm not belittling you at all - as you know, i'm as glum and
> disturbed as you are about a whole bunch of stuff that isn't even hidden or
> contested let alone the dramatic stuff. my reason for posting the monbiot
> article was that his reasoning helps me get a grip.
>
> whatever the case he makes sense (to me, anyway) and he's a journalist i
> admire and trust. i also think his point about things happening all around
> us that are starky disturbing (but unnoticed because they've become so
> common) is an important one - i really hate that stupid frog metaphor
> (boiling to death in a pot but not noticing the temperature change) but it
> seems to be an apt one for how we seem to ignore incremental changes, even
> if they're corrosive.
>
> in terms of learning, action, etc - i'd be interested in hearing more about
> the psychology of learning and behaviour - the sorts of things james and
> others might be able to enlighten us about (such as the tendency for people
> to prefer to believe what they already believe and preference stuff that
> supports it etc) and how this plays into how we make decisions about what we
> do, believe, learn and so on - a whole bunch of human behaviour that can be
> related to this issue
>
> james? others?

I thought that artichoke had blogged on the way that we abdicate our
humanity to institutions but I can't find it. A lot of artichoke's
pythonesque sketches of education and society feel like they are a
wake up call that we can be human without mediation now.
http://artichoke.typepad.com/artichoke/2007/03/cat_burning_pic.html

for me the core experience is feeling that i am a paid up commuter on
a train without a driver going somewhere unhelpful. the other
passengers on the train seem reasonable and negotiable and we are all
wondering how the heck to make a different outcome.

i dont think that any one of us driving the train would make things better
but i do wonder if we were more involved in engineering the vehicles
and their goals and costs that we would have something less dire as a
system.

being a fan of foss i can see that great things start from getting
ones hands dirty trying to make small changes consistent with a
community goal. i guess i am hoping that i can do some of that as a
designer or as a social critter rather than as a coder.

i want to feel like i can be happy and at peace with the things i am
responsible for.

This series of videos by a programmer are about the humanness of the
work and how it impacts social space.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=yeA4CBInqKo

Alan Kay on education and air guitar.
http://interactive.colum.edu/partners/squeakfest/2005.aspx

Eben Moglen a lawyer who is able to see law as a function of society
and not the other way about.
http://emoglen.law.columbia.edu/CPC/
http://emoglen.law.columbia.edu/
http://www.redhat.com/magazine/020jun06/features/video_moglen/

There are so many people working collaboratively to make open code who
are thinking about who they are and how that makes community. how it
impacts parenting. a chap who is a coder and a father said to me at
linux conf last year that he looks at foss as a thought related to
parenting. what kind of parenting can he provide which enables his son
to be free and responsible for the freedom of others.

i think it is ironic that geeks who are deemed nonsocial are making
headway where other sectors are too embedded in the hypersocial bling
of broadcast subscription to be able to think outside that context.
perhaps as they say its the quiet ones youve gotto watch =).

danah boyd is another
http://educationau.edu.au/jahia/Jahia/pid/479

Capital, unhinged from social and environmental responsibility, is
running amok in our name. What do we want for ourselves? What are we
able to make collaboratively? Are we as distributed community better
able to function justly and sustainably than aggregated business
interests? What does that mean in a day by day individual and personal
sense? Are wa able to adjust the existing groups and their works so
that they are re-hinged, regruntled, and responsive to environmentals
and social costs and needs?

Its certainly time for a change. But I think the change needed is
bigger than team jumpers. http://www.re-public.gr/en/?cat=4

Janet

Janet Hawtin

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Jul 16, 2007, 5:42:59 AM7/16/07
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On 7/16/07, sparker <spar...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On the 'free and open' wikipedia the zeitgeist movie page is removed
> and locked down (After only a few days) - The Zeitgeist movie topic -
> whether I agree with it or not has no voice in wikipedia, in my mind
> that sucks for educators, learning, wikipedia you, me, students,
> knowledge (and the future).

im sure it could be covered on wikia where point of view is the norm
instead of neutral point of view. wikipedia is not the only tool in
the box.

Janet Hawtin

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Jul 16, 2007, 6:49:29 AM7/16/07
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Here is a flashback to February 1970.
http://www.chomsky.info/audionvideo/19700216.mp3

I find this interesting because Chomsky is talking through freedom and
making rather than consuming. And despite a lag of 36 years many of
the thoughts feel like they have not been 'learned' or that we have
not moved in any more constructive ways than Chomsky describes. We
have better technologies but perhaps do not have better thinking or
social modelling to match.

Leigh Blackall

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Jul 16, 2007, 5:06:27 PM7/16/07
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wonderful! A wonderful volley of posts! Thankyou thankyou thankyou. I have a bunch of links to follow up on - that loosely relate to a film that has sparked an urgent need for information in me. These links, ideas, and comments come from you - TALO a trusted source of a variety of information. Trusted in that I know it is relevant to me, because I am in the TALO community. It doesn't matter that not all the links are directly related, in fact its better. All I know is that I have been energised by the film and it makes me think of many things in a different light - like Janet's post about FOSS. I would not have normally connected FOSS with this thread, but she is right - in a trusted TALO kind of way.

Rose :) where are the smackdowns? Was this a kinda one? I wasn't feeling belittled btw - it was more the belittling of the movie I was concerned about. Maybe part of me felt belittled... but not so much as to be worried about it. I just wanted a wide range of considered responses from my trusted source of information. You know that french saying... when a wise person points at the moon, the fools look at the finger... I dunno who the wise persons are, but I did get a sense that there was too much looking at the finger going on.

Thanks you all for these impressive overnight responses :)

Janet Hawtin

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Jul 16, 2007, 6:57:44 PM7/16/07
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On 7/17/07, Leigh Blackall <leighb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> points at the moon, the fools look at the finger... I dunno who the wise
> persons are, but I did get a sense that there was too much looking at the
> finger going on.

perhaps the finger is core TALO topic and the moon is interesting but
off topic. =)

Leigh Blackall

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Jul 16, 2007, 7:03:12 PM7/16/07
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:( gee I hope not.. the moon gives me the space to think about ALL the fingers pointing at it, now, in the past, in the future..

Janet Hawtin

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Jul 16, 2007, 8:00:58 PM7/16/07
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On 7/17/07, Leigh Blackall <leighb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> :( gee I hope not.. the moon gives me the space to think about ALL the
> fingers pointing at it, now, in the past, in the future..

I guess I am having trouble seeing how this topic is more on topic
than the thread which you thought was off topic last week. They are
both about how we see culture and society and not directly related to
education online. I care about the ideas moons and fingers in both
topics but am just giving you a cheeky dig about consistency. =)

Leigh Blackall

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Jul 17, 2007, 1:01:29 AM7/17/07
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umm, wasn't me who thought anything was off topic Janet - its all on topic for me. Was I typing something in my sleep? Or are you confusing me for Peter, who called off topic regarding indigenous Australia?

On 7/17/07, Janet Hawtin <lucy...@gmail.com> wrote:

Janet Hawtin

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Jul 17, 2007, 1:14:32 AM7/17/07