First Thunderbird Town Hall

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Ryan Sipes

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Feb 17, 2021, 3:00:50 PM2/17/21
to tb-pl...@mozilla.org

Hello TB-Planning,

We are going to do a Thunderbird Town Hall via Zoom on March 4th at 18:00 UTC! You can go to the Thunderbird Events Google Calendar to see the info in your local timezone.

We are going to try to do these quarterly and invite members of the community to join and ask questions. Project leadership will also share updates, ideas, goals, and answer questions. We will schedule a couple each quarter at different times in order to make it so that those who find one time inconvenient can attend another.

You can add the Thunderbird Events calendar via this link.

Otherwise here are the details:

Thunderbird Town Hall

Time: 18:00 UTC
Location: https://mozilla.zoom.us/j/549511776

---

Feel free to ask any questions you have here or directly to me.

Ryan Sipes
Community Manager
Thunderbird

Neal H. Walfield

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Feb 18, 2021, 1:29:17 PM2/18/21
to Thunderbird planning (moderated)
Hi,

I'm a bit disappointed to see that TB, a free software project, is
using Zoom. Were free software alternatives like Big Blue Button or
Jitsi considered? If so, what is the appeal of zoom?

Thanks,

Neal
_______________________________________________
tb-planning mailing list
tb-pl...@mozilla.org
https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/tb-planning

Óvári

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Feb 18, 2021, 1:29:29 PM2/18/21
to Thunderbird planning (moderated), Ryan Sipes

Can you please use Jitsi Meet or another open-source solution.

Walter L Schwartz

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Feb 20, 2021, 10:25:13 AM2/20/21
to tb-pl...@mozilla.org

Ryan,

Will, this be the only announcement?

Not knowing how many are subscribed to the mailing list, I am thinking community members (users) that follow Twitter, Discourse, mozillaZine and other locations like the Mozilla newsgroups/lists might be interested.

Not having Zoom I'll be looking forward to the updates.

Walt

Óvári

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Feb 24, 2021, 3:21:21 AM2/24/21
to Thunderbird planning (moderated), Walter L Schwartz

Hi Ryan and Walt,

Would be better to have the venue of the Thunderbird Town Hall on Jitsi Meet [1] as there is no software to download as it runs in the Firefox browser.

Additionally, should Thunderbird which is open-source software promote and support other open-source software like Jitsi Meet [2]?

Óvári

[1] https://meet.jit.si/

[2] https://jitsi.org/

Óvári

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Feb 24, 2021, 3:21:40 AM2/24/21
to Thunderbird planning (moderated), Neal H. Walfield
We are disappointed too.

We also wrote "Can you please use Jitsi Meet or another open-source
solution." However our message didn't get posted.

Magnus Melin

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Feb 24, 2021, 6:35:55 AM2/24/21
to tb-pl...@mozilla.org
Basically using Zoom is a pragmatic decision: it's what Mozilla has
chosen to use after evaluating the options, so there's a company license
to use it. We know it works, and it's substantial work to ensure
competing solutions work (free-as-in-beer solutions rarely work at
scale, and if non-free-as-in-beer: contract hazzle).

By "work" I don't mean that it kind of works for a group of three. Do
competitors work reliably with larger crowds (30-40 ppl, maybe more)? Do
you have the ability to join by smartphone app? Can you call in? I don't
now, but I do know it require legwork for many people to find out.

 -Magnus

Óvári

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Feb 25, 2021, 3:52:35 AM2/25/21
to Thunderbird planning (moderated), Magnus Melin, erin....@8x8.com
Hi Magnus and *,

Mozilla should contact 8x8 [1]. For more information you can contact
Erin Brown at 8x8, email address is shown.

The "Thunderbird Town Hall" should be call the "Thunderbird Community
Call", similar to the "Jitsi Community Call" [2]

Please also see comments below.

On 24/2/21 10:35 pm, Magnus Melin wrote:
> Basically using Zoom is a pragmatic decision: it's what Mozilla has
> chosen to use after evaluating the options, so there's a company
> license to use it. We know it works, and it's substantial work to
> ensure competing solutions work (free-as-in-beer solutions rarely work
> at scale, and if non-free-as-in-beer: contract hazzle).

What does a pragmatic decision by Mozilla look like?

Mozilla is laying off 250 people, about a quarter of its workforce [3]

Perhaps people shouldn't use Mozilla Thunderbird as it is free/libre and
open source software. People should use Microsoft Outlook as it is a
completed PIM (Personal Information Manager) that has, out of the box, a
better Contacts (aka Address Book) module, integrates with Microsoft
Exchange, TNEF-support, and the list goes on...

Perhaps people shouldn't use Mozilla Firefox as Google Chrome, Microsoft
Edge and Safari are available. Chrome and Edge have been evaluated and
it was decided that it is pragmatic to not go with Mozilla as they are
letting their staff go and Google and Microsoft are well-funded and
well-connected multinational companies.

Every open-source company should where possible allow and expand
proprietary software companies to become part of their supply chain. It
will help the EEE "embrace, expand and extinguish" [4] methodology to
work well.

"8x8 named Leader in 2020 Gartner UCaaS Magic Quadrant for the 9th Year
in a row." [5]

If people don't stand for anything, they will surely fall for anything.

>
> By "work" I don't mean that it kind of works for a group of three. Do
> competitors work reliably with larger crowds (30-40 ppl, maybe more)?

Yes, Jitsi Meet works with large crowds. See

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyXuxN-aNUpRv0juUXLyjbw/videos?view=0&sort=dd&shelf_id=1

Large educational institutions in many countries are using Jitsi Meet.

> Do you have the ability to join by smartphone app?

Yes, https://jitsi.org/downloads/

iOS https://apps.apple.com/us/app/jitsi-meet/id1165103905

Android https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.jitsi.meet

F-Droid https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.jitsi.meet/

> Can you call in? I don't now, but I do know it require legwork for
> many people to find out.

Yes you can call in. 8x8 [6] powers Jitsi Meet. The call-in feature in
Microsoft Teams uses the 8x8 call-in feature.

What other legwork do you need? We are not affiliated (except for using
their free service) with 8x8 or Jitsi so contact 8x8 [7] to make the
switch today.

>
>  -Magnus

Would love to read about the Thunderbird Council switching to Jitsi or
8x8. If there are any blockers in planning and making the switch, please
email the list as there are other Thunderbird community members who can
help.

Cheers

Óvári

[1] https://www.8x8.com/

[2] https://jitsi.org/TheCall/

[3]
https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/11/21363424/mozilla-layoffs-quarter-staff-250-people-new-revenue-focus

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace%2C_extend_and_extinguish

[5] https://www.8x8.com/8/gartner-ucaas-magic-quadrant

[6] https://www.8x8.com/

[7] https://www.8x8.com/about-us/contact-us

Óvári

unread,
Feb 25, 2021, 3:53:44 AM2/25/21
to Thunderbird planning (moderated)

Hi *,

In the event that the email below didn't get through to the tb-planning list, here is a response from 8x8 Inc. the company that powers Jitsi.

The plans shown in the link below are at:
https://app.8x8.vc/payments/?preselectPlan=true&isVpaaS=true&_ga=2.41790816.376256379.1614204566-1869826280.1610678075

Cheers

Óvári

Subject: Re: First Thunderbird Town Hall
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 10:31:59 +1100
From: Leon Avery <leon....@8x8.com>
To: Magnus Melin <mkmelin...@iki.fi>
CC: Erin Brown <erin....@8x8.com>, Thunderbird planning (moderated) <tb-pl...@mozilla.org>, Óvári <ovar...@zoho.com>


Hi Magnus and Thunderbird Council,

Hope you're well.

Please see information on our commercial version of Jitsi, otherwise known as JaaS (Jitsi as a service). All rates quoted here are in USD and it's a self-service model whereby you can pay easily via credit card. Please review this site, currently JaaS supports up to 100 concurrent people within a meeting session. 

Once you've looked at the plans please advise which plan would suit you best?

Thanks,
Leon

On Thu, Feb 25, 2021 at 9:24 AM Leon Avery <leon....@8x8.com> wrote:
Thanks for the intro, Erin.

Hi Ovari,

I've left you a voicemail, please call me on my mobile, 0455 700 800 when you are free.

Thanks,
Leon

On Thu, Feb 25, 2021 at 9:14 AM Erin Brown <erin....@8x8.com> wrote:
Hi Ovari,

Thanks for your call this morning. I'm looping in @Leon Avery to this email, as he manages JaaS (Jitsi as a service) opportunities. If you have any questions regarding Jitsi for your Thunderbird event, please feel free to reach out to him. 

Cheers,

Erin 
--

Erin Brown | 1 (408) 479-8418

Account Development Representative


8x8

NYSE: EGHT 


Twitter | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn | YouTube 


8x8 Essentials for the New Digital Workplace. Learn more at 8x8.com






--

Leon Avery | T +61 2 7202 4908 M +61 455 700 800

Enterprise Sales Executive


8x8

NYSE: EGHT 


Twitter | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn | YouTube 


8x8 Essentials for the New Digital Workplace. Learn more at 8x8.com






--

Leon Avery | T +61 2 7202 4908 M +61 455 700 800

Enterprise Sales Executive


8x8

NYSE: EGHT 


Twitter | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn | YouTube 


8x8 Essentials for the New Digital Workplace. Learn more at 8x8.com




Matt Harris

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Feb 27, 2021, 3:54:40 AM2/27/21
to tb-pl...@mozilla.org
All of those are issues that need to be kept in mind as Thunderbird builds it's vision.  Others are not nearly as forgiving as the core group with ugly UI,  quirky methods and plain ancient command line switches to do things.Thunderbird as a product also needs to be across as a part of our vision.

As you say Magnus,
"free-as-in-beer solutions rarely work at scale"  Does Thunderbird? I see folks with lots of folder (thousands) and accounts (hundreds) in support,  but they are there because they are having issues.
"it's what Mozilla has chosen to use after evaluating the options" just as they have evaluated Thunderbird. Apparently found it wanting and pay for Google's product.

Just my 2cents.

Matt

Matt Harris

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Feb 27, 2021, 4:05:37 AM2/27/21
to tb-pl...@mozilla.org
I will have to disagree with you there as I have that message from the list.  However I will point out that all mail from you of late appears in my gmail Gmail spam folder along with any subsequent discussion in the thread. Each entry in the spam is beginning with Óvári,  not necessarily the start of the topic, but your entry into the discussion and and subsequent replies back and forth in the discussion with the exception of the following

For reasons I don't understand,  Waynes reply to you on the Zombiekeys topic made it,  but your post and Ryans reply did not.  That was how a noticed there was a problem.  Perhaps it is not just me that is having spam issue like this.

Matt
“Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain.” ― Friedrich von Schiller, Die Jungfrau von Orleans
.

Magnus Melin

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Feb 27, 2021, 6:53:17 AM2/27/21
to tb-pl...@mozilla.org
On 2021-02-27 10:54, Matt Harris wrote:
> As you say Magnus,
> "free-as-in-beer solutions rarely work at scale"  Does Thunderbird? I
> see folks with lots of folder (thousands) and accounts (hundreds) in
> support,  but they are there because they are having issues.

Thunderbird is not a server product. Obviously for any software, if you
push the limits you may end up with problems.

> "it's what Mozilla has chosen to use after evaluating the options"
> just as they have evaluated Thunderbird. Apparently found it wanting
> and pay for Google's product.

Thunderbird is a desktop client. You still need to have the server side
solution from someone (hosting yourself may not be cost effective). I
wouldn't advice larger companies to rely on free email hosting...

 -Magnus

Wayne Mery

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Feb 27, 2021, 10:49:26 AM2/27/21
to Thunderbird planning (moderated)
On 2/27/21 4:05 AM, Matt Harris wrote:
For reasons I don't understand,  Waynes reply to you on the Zombiekeys topic made it,  but your post and Ryans reply did not.  That was how a noticed there was a problem.  Perhaps it is not just me that is having spam issue like this.

It is not just you. In recent days I am finding many legitimate messages in my gmail spam folder, and not just tb-planning posts. The reason gmail cites is "Lots of messages from mozilla.org were identified as spam in the past." (per screen shot)

I am super irritated by this because

a) I know I did not marked any messages as spam (I don't even use the gmail UI, so I couldn't possibly mark it as spam), and

b) I thought I followed gmail's recommendation of adding the sender to contacts [1], yet the problem persists.

Perhaps my messages are going to spam because some other gmail user has marked them as spam?  

It's worth noting that adding contacts is not intuitive (IMO).  The only way I found is to open contacts, search for the contact, select the contact and click the "+" at the top.


[1] "Tip: To stop a message from being sent to Spam in the future, you can:  Add the sender to your Contacts." per "https://support.google.com/mail/answer/1366858?hl=en&authuser=3&expand=5

Screen Shot 2021-02-27 at 7.47.09 AM.png

Andrew Gallagher

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Feb 27, 2021, 11:48:11 AM2/27/21
to Thunderbird planning (moderated)

> On 27 Feb 2021, at 15:49, Wayne Mery <vsee...@lehigh.edu> wrote:
>
> It is not just you. In recent days I am finding many legitimate messages in my gmail spam folder, and not just tb-planning posts. The reason gmail cites is "Lots of messages from mozilla.org were identified as spam in the past." (per screen shot)

We use gmail in $WORK and I have found their antispam algorithms to be a constantly shifting and opaque target. This is particularly problematic because we generate a lot of automated emails for software licensing, subscription confirmations, and system monitoring. Despite a full SPF+DKIM+DMARC setup, some mails go straight to the spam folder for inexplicable reasons. I have largely given up trying to fight them - it’s a better use of our time to teach people to check their spam folders than chase down the long tail of false positives. It’s not a recent thing for us either; it has been getting progressively worse over the last couple of years.

The only thing that I find makes a significant difference is making sure our DKIM configuration is up to scratch. Pretty much everything else is ineffective, and a background level of false positives seems sadly inevitable at this point.

A

Philipp Kewisch

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Feb 27, 2021, 1:09:40 PM2/27/21
to Thunderbird planning (moderated)
Some other folks at Mozilla are getting this as well, I believe IT is investigating.

> On 27. Feb 2021, at 4:49 PM, Wayne Mery <vsee...@lehigh.edu> wrote:
>
> It is not just you. In recent days I am finding many legitimate messages in my gmail spam folder, and not just tb-planning posts. The reason gmail cites is "Lots of messages from mozilla.org were identified as spam in the past." (per screen shot)

The Wanderer

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Feb 27, 2021, 2:05:51 PM2/27/21
to tb-pl...@mozilla.org
On 2021-02-27 at 10:46, Wayne Mery wrote:

> On 2/27/21 4:05 AM, Matt Harris wrote:
>
>> For reasons I don't understand, Waynes reply to you on the
>> Zombiekeys topic made it, but your post and Ryans reply did not.
>> That was how a noticed there was a problem. Perhaps it is not just
>> me that is having spam issue like this.
>
> It is not just you. In recent days I am finding many legitimate
> messages in my gmail spam folder, and not just tb-planning posts. The
> reason gmail cites is "Lots of messages from mozilla.org were
> identified as spam in the past." (per screen shot)

> Perhaps my messages are going to spam because some other gmail user
> has marked them as spam?

My first guess at the cause of this would be that people signed up to
either Mozilla mailing lists or other Mozilla notifications (the
bugtracker?), either didn't realize it or got tired of receiving the
mails, and rather than go through the unsubscribe procedure they just
reported the mails as spam.

I have seen such "mark as spam instead of unsubscribing" behavior
reported with regard to mailing lists in the past; I don't recall
whether it was specifically Mozilla mailing lists, but it wouldn't at
all surprise me if it were happening here.

--
The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw

signature.asc

Dillinger

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Feb 27, 2021, 2:20:23 PM2/27/21
to tb-pl...@mozilla.org
It is not just you, posts by Óvári nearly always end up in my spam
folder (not Gmail) and/or break threads.
I have even set up a filter to restore false spam from these lists.

On 2/27/21 10:05 AM, Matt Harris wrote:
> Each entry in the spam is beginning with Óvári, not necessarily the
> start of the topic, but your entry into the discussion and and
> subsequent replies back and forth in the discussion with the exception
> of the following
>
> For reasons I don't understand,  Waynes reply to you on the Zombiekeys
> topic made it,  but your post and Ryans reply did not. That was how a
> noticed there was a problem.  Perhaps it is not just me that is having
> spam issue like this.

_______________________________________________

Andrew Gallagher

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Feb 27, 2021, 8:50:55 PM2/27/21
to Thunderbird planning (moderated)

> On 27 Feb 2021, at 19:05, The Wanderer <wand...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> I have seen such "mark as spam instead of unsubscribing" behavior
> reported with regard to mailing lists in the past; I don't recall
> whether it was specifically Mozilla mailing lists, but it wouldn't at
> all surprise me if it were happening here.

I have direct experience of similar user behaviour - in one confirmed instance we were RBLed because one of our corporate customers mistyped their own personal email address in a subscription form, and the unintended recipient of the confirmation email reported us as spammers. It took several weeks to get the RBL revoked, during which time we were unable to deliver *any* mail to one of the large email hosting companies.

A

Ryan Sipes

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Mar 1, 2021, 2:44:40 PM3/1/21
to tb-pl...@mozilla.org

ATTENTION!

Hello all,

I have heard a number of people say that they are unable to attend this time. I'm happy to hop on if anyone still wants to attend and talk at this time - but I am looking to schedule something that more folks can attend on the week of the 15th.

If you would like to indicate your availability that week, please do so here.

Ryan

Klaus Hartnegg

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Mar 2, 2021, 3:05:45 AM3/2/21
to Thunderbird planning (moderated)

> On 27. Feb 2021, at 20:05, The Wanderer <wand...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> My first guess at the cause of this would be that people signed up to
> either Mozilla mailing lists or other Mozilla notifications (the
> bugtracker?), either didn't realize it or got tired of receiving the
> mails, and rather than go through the unsubscribe procedure they just
> reported the mails as spam.
>
> I have seen such "mark as spam instead of unsubscribing" behavior
> reported with regard to mailing lists in the past; I don't recall
> whether it was specifically Mozilla mailing lists, but it wouldn't at
> all surprise me if it were happening here.
>
> --
> The Wanderer

Try to find the unsubscribe button here, then you will understand why so many people do it.

The mailing list for Firefox ESR ('enterprise') was over several years full of unsubscribe requests, because there was no unsubscribe link. Not just no link in the emails, also none on the webpage of the mailinglist. Plus everybody who wanted just use the ESR version was pushed to subscribe to that mailinglist. So there were many people who did not want these emails.

Most mailing lists have unsubscribe info in the header, such that many email apps can add an unsubscribe button.

Most others have an unsubscribe link at the end of each email.

The emails from Mozilla mailing lists have neither. This was endlessly discussed in the ESR list, and it took years go get a halfbaked workaround implemented.

Klaus

--
Message sent from a mobile device, please excuse brevity and typos

Wayne Mery

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Mar 4, 2021, 12:54:22 PM3/4/21
to Thunderbird planning (moderated)
On 3/1/21 2:44 PM, Ryan Sipes wrote:

ATTENTION!

Hello all,

I have heard a number of people say that they are unable to attend this time. I'm happy to hop on if anyone still wants to attend and talk at this time - but I am looking to schedule something that more folks can attend on the week of the 15th.

If you would like to indicate your availability that week, please do so here.

Ryan

Just a reminder to put your vote in for all the times you can attend the town hall.

So far, it's a disappointing amount of feedback given the opportunity, and the many past requests to interact directly.

Ben Bucksch

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Mar 4, 2021, 6:08:34 PM3/4/21
to Thunderbird planning (moderated), Wayne Mery
Hello Wayne,

thank you for the reminder. I didn't really realize that there was a very easy to fill out poll. But that was my mistake. Your message helped me to realize my mistake.

Everybody: After you check the checkbox of which time you prefer, make sure to hit "Send" (which also requires to put in some name or nick name, but no registration or anything else is required). Takes just a few seconds.

Ben
--
Sent from my cell phone. Please excuse the brevity.

Ben Bucksch

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Mar 4, 2021, 6:27:49 PM3/4/21
to Thunderbird planning (moderated), Magnus Melin
Hello Ovari and others,

I completely understand your objection. In fact, I said precisely the same when I was par of the the TB council and we did our council meetings via Zoom. I thought: 'We have WebRTC built right into the browser! It's part of the Mozilla project! Why don't we eat our own dogfood? It's very easy to join, with only Firefox. What's the problem?'

Then, I tried to conduct a video conference with many participants. Zoom is nice in many little details which become important when you conduct a large meeting. I've used it extensively in the last year. While I dislike the proprietary software, Zoom has its advantages. I have not tried Jitsi recently for a large meeting, maybe it's become just a good.

Tip for those concerned about proprietary software: Install the Zoom app on Android. Android is full of proprietary software anyway. If you don't have Google Play Store, Zoom even offers the Android APK directly: https://zoom.us/client/latest/zoom.apk

(Tip for the TB council: Try Jitsi. They got much much better recently. Not the same as a few years ago.
meet.jit.si is free without registration. Even the professional offer "Jaas Dev" is free for up to 25 users. It's worth another try.)

Ben

Feel free to ask any questions you have here or directly to me.

Ryan Sipes
Community Manager
Thunderbird

neandr

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Mar 5, 2021, 8:53:23 AM3/5/21
to Thunderbird planning (moderated), Wayne Mery

Hello Wayne, hello Ryan, hello *,

understanding Wayne (frustation) .. think there are (some) people (like me) not having hard restrictions for attending at what ever time the TH is scheduled. For me, I will make it to the meeting.

Thanks and see you

Günter

Matt Harris

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Mar 8, 2021, 1:49:18 AM3/8/21
to tb-pl...@mozilla.org


It might not be a button,   but it is fairly obvious to me how it works. It appears with every single email from the list I read.  Unfortunately most mail users don't have the first clue about the tool they are using. 

“Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain.” ― Friedrich von Schiller, Die Jungfrau von Orleans

Matt Harris

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Mar 8, 2021, 1:52:38 AM3/8/21
to tb-pl...@mozilla.org
“Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain.” ― Friedrich von Schiller, Die Jungfrau von Orleans
On 01-Mar-21 4:05 PM, Klaus Hartnegg wrote:

      
On 27. Feb 2021, at 20:05, The Wanderer <wand...@fastmail.fm> wrote:

My first guess at the cause of this would be that people signed up to
either Mozilla mailing lists or other Mozilla notifications (the
bugtracker?), either didn't realize it or got tired of receiving the
mails, and rather than go through the unsubscribe procedure they just
reported the mails as spam.

I have seen such "mark as spam instead of unsubscribing" behavior
reported with regard to mailing lists in the past; I don't recall
whether it was specifically Mozilla mailing lists, but it wouldn't at
all surprise me if it were happening here.

-- 
  The Wanderer
Try to find the unsubscribe button here, then you will understand why so many people do it.
Perhaps it is time to dust of bug 29041 and provide one.  After 21 years it is still a good idea.
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=29041

ISHIKAWA,chiaki

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Mar 8, 2021, 3:53:33 PM3/8/21
to tb-pl...@mozilla.org
On 2021/03/05 2:54, Wayne Mery wrote:
> On 3/1/21 2:44 PM, Ryan Sipes wrote:
>>
>> *ATTENTION!*
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I have heard a number of people say that they are unable to attend
>> this time. I'm happy to hop on if anyone still wants to attend and
>> talk at this time - but I am looking to schedule something that more
>> folks can attend on the week of the 15th.
>>
>> If you would like to indicate your availability that week, please do
>> so here
>> <https://doodle.com/poll/vvanqsnhsxntfqa7?utm_source=poll&utm_medium=link>.
>>
>> Ryan
>>
> Just a reminder to put your vote in for all the times you can attend
> the town hall.
>
> So far, it's a disappointing amount of feedback given the opportunity,
> and the many past requests to interact directly.
>


Will this be recorded and made available for later leisurely view at
more convenient time?

Chiaki

Klaus Hartnegg

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Mar 8, 2021, 5:28:24 PM3/8/21
to unicorn.c...@gmail.com, Thunderbird planning (moderated)
How many users view the source to find this info hidden in the invisible header?

Why is that header info incompatible with the detection logic of the default email-app of iOS?

Why does the web page of the mailing list contain a section about subscribing, but not a section about unsubscribing?

Why is unsubscribing hidden in a section which demands the password of the list admin?

Why do I need to enter my email address, when I just got there by clicking on a link in an email?

The UI designers of an email software should really be able to deliver a more intuitive, or at least a less confusing and less frustrating UI for a mailing list. Especially after these issues have been discussed over and over again through the course of many years.

-- 
Message sent from a mobile device, please excuse brevity and typos

On 8. Mar 2021, at 07:49, Matt Harris <unicorn.c...@gmail.com> wrote:


<fhmhlkjjibfmcjco.png>


It might not be a button,   but it is fairly obvious to me how it works. It appears with every single email from the list I read.  Unfortunately most mail users don't have the first clue about the tool they are using. 

“Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain.” ― Friedrich von Schiller, Die Jungfrau von Orleans
On 01-Mar-21 4:05 PM, Klaus Hartnegg wrote:

      
On 27. Feb 2021, at 20:05, The Wanderer <wand...@fastmail.fm> wrote:

My first guess at the cause of this would be that people signed up to
either Mozilla mailing lists or other Mozilla notifications (the
bugtracker?), either didn't realize it or got tired of receiving the
mails, and rather than go through the unsubscribe procedure they just
reported the mails as spam.

I have seen such "mark as spam instead of unsubscribing" behavior
reported with regard to mailing lists in the past; I don't recall
whether it was specifically Mozilla mailing lists, but it wouldn't at
all surprise me if it were happening here.

-- 
  The Wanderer
Try to find the unsubscribe button here, then you will understand why so many people do it.

The mailing list for Firefox ESR ('enterprise') was over several years full of unsubscribe requests, because there was no unsubscribe link. Not just no link in the emails, also none on the webpage of the mailinglist. Plus everybody who wanted just use the ESR version was pushed to subscribe to that mailinglist. So there were many people who did not want these emails.

Most mailing lists have unsubscribe info in the header, such that many email apps can add an unsubscribe button.

Most others have an unsubscribe link at the end of each email.

The emails from Mozilla mailing lists have neither. This was endlessly discussed in the ESR list, and it took years go get a halfbaked workaround implemented.

Klaus


Geoff Lankow

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Mar 8, 2021, 5:32:50 PM3/8/21
to tb-pl...@mozilla.org

We (Thunderbird) don't control mail.mozilla.org.

GL

Wayne Mery

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Mar 8, 2021, 5:54:05 PM3/8/21
to Thunderbird planning (moderated)
On 3/8/21 5:08 PM, Klaus Hartnegg wrote:
How many users view the source to find this info hidden in the invisible header?

Why is that header info incompatible with the detection logic of the default email-app of iOS?

Why does the web page of the mailing list contain a section about subscribing, but not a section about unsubscribing?

Why is unsubscribing hidden in a section which demands the password of the list admin?

https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/ is unfortunately not well designed. For example it shouldn't list items that are only available to admins on public facing pages. Unfortunately it can't be changed.


Why do I need to enter my email address, when I just got there by clicking on a link in an email?

The UI designers of an email software should really be able to deliver a more intuitive, or at least a less confusing and less frustrating UI for a mailing list. Especially after these issues have been discussed over and over again through the course of many years.

You make fair points.  But as Geoff points out, most of these items not controlled by Thunderbird folks, not even by list admins of Thunderbird forums. It doesn't help that unfortunately mailman hasn't significantly evolved in this area over the years.

I think we can all agree that a good step forward would be to do the previously mentioned Bug 29041 - Support mailing list management (unsubscription etc.) headers - RFC 2369 and we won't need to discuss it here :)

Ryan Sipes

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Mar 10, 2021, 2:00:21 PM3/10/21
to tb-pl...@mozilla.org

RESCHEDULE:

Thank you for participating in the Doodle poll, I believe most of the people who expressed interest in coming have filled out the form. Info below:

Thunderbird Town Hall
March 15

Hope to see everyone who responded with this time as their preference attend! As I said before, we can do another or if you really want to talk get hold of me and we'll figure something out.

Ryan

Onno Ekker

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Mar 10, 2021, 3:56:21 PM3/10/21
to tb-pl...@mozilla.org
On 3/10/2021 8:00 PM, Ryan Sipes wrote:

RESCHEDULE:

Thank you for participating in the Doodle poll, I believe most of the people who expressed interest in coming have filled out the form. Info below:

Thunderbird Town Hall
March 15
18:00 UTC
Location: https://mozilla.zoom.us/j/549511776

Hope to see everyone who responded with this time as their preference attend! As I said before, we can do another or if you really want to talk get hold of me and we'll figure something out.

Ryan


So, just to get this straight... that is March 15 19:00 CET, right?

It would be nice if there was a ICS attached... the Thunderbird Calendar link somewhere below doesn't show this event, but it does show numerous holidays, which I already have in my agenda or for which I don't have interest to add them to my agenda.

Onno

Óvári

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Mar 13, 2021, 9:15:05 AM3/13/21
to Thunderbird planning (moderated), Ryan Sipes

Hi Ryan,

Could you please advise the dial-in phone numbers?

Thank you

Óvári

https://www.timeanddate.com/w