[Zanjeer Movie
Rapheal Charlton
i try explaining about the love of imam hussain, the grief, the passion, the people throughout history who have done azadari in different forms, the imams who promoted it, the sahaba who ripped out their own teeth in love for the prophet (pbuh), the symbolic meaning, the need to spread the message etc etc
is there an "idiot proof" explanation for anyone that asks? without going into much detail? because the guy has a concentration span of about 30 seconds so i need to come up with the whole explanation within that timeframe.
Well, I happen to be such an 'idiot' myself and I can tell you what proof I'd need to be convinced: a hadith in which any of the Imams (as) either performed zanjeer zani himself or enjoined others to perform zanjeer zani or saw others performing zanjeer zani without criticising them and thus gave his approval.
well, you see, zanjeer zani itself isnt mentioned, however there are LOADS of hadiths of azadari in general from the imams all the way down. look at imam zainul abideen (as), he cried so much that the blood vessels round his eyes burst with the pressure so he cried tears of blood, our logic is that the limits were set by the imams and nothing we EVER do will be enough as what imam zainul abideen did, so we are not transgressing
self mutilation in grief was present during the prophets (pbuh) time as well, look at hazrat owais al- karni, when he found that the prophet broke his tooth he ripped out his teeth one by one...no anaesthetic or anything. the prophet said that he was a great friend of the ahle bayt...no admonishments at all
zanjeer zani is an aspect of azadari, its not the main thing. matam, doing good deeds, fasting, donating blood, its all good, its all generally equal. plus there are marjas out there who say its ok, i asked ayotollah langrudi himself when he visited manchester and he said its "enormous...the highest sawaab on ashura"
and the symbolic act itself....we suffer pain and give our blood in our love for our beloved imam hussain, with the intention to show our imam that if we had a choice we would be there by his side at kerbala
sometimes bro, theres things that cant be explained by logic or out of books...love and devotion to a cause, to a message, it makes you act in ways that you cant get "proof" from, you just do them and trust that god knows your intentions
And as much as I agree with most of the things you say about azadari and as much as I am aware of Uways Qarni ripping his teeth out and Zeynab (as) hiting her head against the bars of a cage, etc. there is one major problem I still have: these two acts were not rituals; they were spontaneous, one-time acts of taking one's grieving to an extreme. Zanjeer zani has become an annual ritual, in fact it is one of the main rituals of the Shia now, and the ritualistic part of our religion is not something that we derive from our emotions, it is something we derive from the Qur'an and Sunnah. So if Azadari is to be an annual ritual (which it is) then we should only do what the Imams (as) and their immediate followers did on this occasion for surely their acts were not lacking anything.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not a major enemy of this practice or anything like that and I'm not attacking you in any way, but firstly I believe that rituals can only come from Qur'an and Sunnah and secondly, I do not like the status that this practice has gained among the Shia - to the effect that even people who have the status of marjaiyyat are being attacked by laymen when they dare to speak against this practice and people who do not engage in this practice have their devotion to Imams questioned, etc.
And lastly, there should be a research into who exactly started this practice - again, not a spontaneous act of taking one's grieving to an extreme, but the actual ritual when a group of men gathers together and starts cutting themselves up in a ritualistic, often rhytmical manner. With all due respect, something tells me that the origins of such practice would be found among the Ghulaat.
the fact that every year people meet to commemorate ashura comes from and was encouraged by the imams, and its accepted by all parties that having a majlis is great sawaab. so i dont really agree with the idea that the "ritual" of planning to do it is wrong
During Mutawakil's time, Ziarat of Imam Hussain was forbidden unless you give your arm or/and a leg (literally) and people did that, just to do ziarat. The rulers realized that even this will not stop the ziarat of Imam Hussain, so they required that you give up your child, (watch em get killed right in front of your eyes before you could go to do ziarat. People did that as well and no mam ever said that its not allowed. (even though the person going for ziarat did not make these sacrifices spontaneously).
Brother, you keep confusing two things - azadari gatherings in general, that of course the Imams (as) themselves encouraged and I don't deny this; and the practice of zanjeer zani. In other words, we have proofs from the Sunnah that support the establishing azadari gatherings but we don't have anything that supports the particular ritual of zanjeer zani. We have quite detailed accounts of how the Imams (as) held azadari gatherings, why wasn't any practice of self-mutilation a part of them?
1. Could you provide specific ahadith proving this or is it something you have heard during majlis? In order to prove that it was OK according to the Imams to watch your child killed just to do ziyarat there would have to be a hadith stating that an Imam explicitly allowed someone to watch his child killed for that purpose or a hadith stating that an Imam heard about this and didn't object. Can you provide any such hadith?
Question by Ahmed: My brother wants to do Qama on 20 Safar, he is following Ayatullah Sistani. Based on the misuse of Qama today, insincerity of many people, diseases spreading around, and political views can I stop him from doing Qama?
Answer by Board of Istifa, Office of Grand Ayatollah Sistani: The main objective of mourning and lamentation during 'Ashura', is to respect the signs and symbols of religion and remember the suffering of Imam Hussain (as), his companions, and his uprising to defend Islam and prevent the destruction of the religion by Bani Umayyad dynasty. These rites must be done in such a way that in addition to serving that purpose, it draws the attention of others to these lofty goals. Also its ritual aspect should be preserved. So those actions which are not understandable for the enemies of Islam and non-Shia Muslims and causes misunderstanding and contempt for the religion must be avoided.
Answer by Board of Istifa, Office of Grand Ayatollah Sistani: The philosophy of mourning during 'Ashura', is to respect the symbols of religion and remember the suffering of Imam Hussain (as), his companions, and his uprising to defend Islam and prevent the destruction of the religion by Bani Umayyad dynasty. These rites must be done in such a way that in addition to serving that purpose, it draws the attention of others to these lofty goals. So those actions which are not understandable and causes misunderstanding and contempt for the religion must be avoided.
Above attached image is the cutting from newspaper (Urdu Blitz 9, July 1994), which clearly indicates the order of Ayatollah ul-Uzma Khamenei prohibiting Zanjeer & Qama Zani. Authenticity of this news can be confirmed from office of Ayatollah ul-Uzma Khamenei, if anyone has doubts.
After reading the above mentioned orders from two Great Ayatollah's of our times. People should start following the orders to safeguard Islam and to fail the propaganda of "Taghoot" and arrogant powers of this era against Shiites proving them "Crazy" & "Insane" people who beat themselves sometimes so hard even threatening their own lives. To see the propaganda of "Taghoot" by yourself to believe, please visit the below given four links.
As such the true form of Azadari (mourning) is relevant to Wilayat only. The Azadari seen mostly are a set of rituals which are done with the purpose of earning rewards, expressing love of Imam Hussain (a.s.) in the form of grief, or expressing condolence to his mother Fatima Zahra (s.a). Whereas Azadari in its true sense is awakening of the Ummah to stand & protest against the Yazid of our age and denounce their cruel & harmful policies towards Islam, and this spirit is very much lacking in our Azadari sessions, and this can only be enlightened through the Wilayat of the righteous, that is the Ulama (Faqih) during the occultation of Imam-e-Zamana (a.t.f.s.).
As far as mourning is concerned and getting attention of entire world, then it should be done very nicely with "beating chests & heads with hands" and with complete discipline in procession. All the people should participate with fully dressed in black cloths. Then definitely it will impress the entire world and will force them to accept us as a peace loving people. On the other hand people fear from Shiites when they see them doing Zanjeer Zani crazily and from head to toe covered with blood.
As far as no infection with Zanjeer and Qama is concerned, shows the lack of knowledge regarding cultures and religions of world. National Geographic channel has shown many times that in some countries they do the same things which Shiites do and they neither feel pain nor infection after doing so. Hence they can also claim it as Mojeza. So, it has been decided that religion can not be practiced according to our assumptions and self-made thoughts instead we should commemorate true Azadri with its soul.
This is one more ignorant question. Aqeeda (Usool example Tauheed) is belief, beliefs are always in the heart, when the beliefs get manifested in practical form it becomes Furoo (example Salaat), and all Furoo are controlled by laws of Shariah. Now love for Allah is Tauheed, but when the same love comes into action it become Salaat, which is Furoo, and Shariah will tell us the way of Salaat. In a similar way, the love of Imam Hussain (a.s.) is Aqeeda, but when the same love comes in practical form, it becomes Furoo (example Azadari) and has to be controlled by Shariah.
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