Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?]

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penisimani mone

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Apr 6, 2009, 7:46:35 AM4/6/09
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Sfaupula:
peni fokotu'u mai a 'e koe 'a e third position koena ke tau sokosoka ai he'e fuoloa e talanoa ia koeni.
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Ko eeeenah, ko e ki'i faka'ata'ataa atu pe 'a e mala'ee, Veni mo Lotopoha na'a mo fie fakaferesh mai ki ai, he 'oku hangehangee kiate au 'oku 'i ai ha konga pehee 'i ho'omo takitaha taukave, hangee pe ko ho'omo kehekehe 'i he inspiration vs animation, manatu'i pee, sokosoka pe he fo'i puluu he ko e holy week eni. Sai, kau ifi'i atu e me'aifii
ee..'olololoooo...hangee 'oku ou ki'i tui ki he lavelave 'a Lotopohaa, Veni - fakahela ho'o takai holo 'au he socio-cultural 'o e author in quest of meaning, fai mo tau hangatonu tautolu ki he text to see the mistakes, ko ia koaa Lotopoha mo Veni? or whatever, sorry both for my reader's mistakes,
--
fakapulia

sfaupula

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Apr 6, 2009, 8:52:36 PM4/6/09
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hehehehahah! ko e 'ai pehe'i ke fefee'i faifekau? tuku e feinga tamate ia, he 'oku ta'engali ia moe lotu!
 


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sfaupula

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Apr 6, 2009, 10:56:29 PM4/6/09
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faifekau, kapau te tau afe hake ke talanoa'i e mafai 'o e tohitapu mei he tafa'aki 'o e hermeneutics, kou tui 'e 'ikai ke toe kau mai 'a loto ia. tu'unga pe 'i he 'uhinga 'oku 'ikai ke kau e fktonulea ia 'i he project 'a loto. neu 'osi feinga atu foki kia loto pe'e lava ke ki'i fekuki hifo moe ngaahi so called mistakes 'oku ne si'i tokanga ki ai, ka ne 'ikai pe ke ne si'i fie tokanga mai ki ai. i think loto's project does seek to discover the meaning of the author. instead loto's project is driven by a need to discredit the basic biblical understanding that scripture is god's very words and all other related factors relating to that truth. 
 
kaekehe, kapau te tau lave ki he ngaahi so called mistakes within from the author's perspective kuo pau ketau alasi foki e ngaahi tafa'aki kehekehe - cultural, historical, sociological, geographical, political, theological, economical, literary, etc contexts - that will shed light on the author's meaning.
 
 
 

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penisimani mone

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Apr 8, 2009, 8:57:59 PM4/8/09
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2009/4/6 sfaupula sk...@bigpond.com

i think loto's project does seek to discover the meaning of the author. instead loto's project is driven by a need to discredit the basic biblical understanding that scripture is god's very words and all other related factors relating to that truth. 
 kaekehe, kapau te tau lave ki he ngaahi so called mistakes within from the author's perspective kuo pau ketau alasi foki e ngaahi tafa'aki kehekehe - cultural, historical, sociological, geographical, political, theological, economical, literary, etc contexts - that will shed light on the author's meaning.
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Lotopoha:
MOLE HOKU TAIMI 'OKU AI, ko e 'ilo ko ee ki he CONTEXTS (cultural, ethical, historical, social moe haa fua) ki he ngaahi tohi KUO LOAKALIU 'EKU 'ILO.
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malo e lave mai ai, ko e contradictions ena ia (senesi) pea 'oku toe fk'a'au atu ia ki he loloto ange hono talanoa'i 'o a'u ki he AUTHOR, pea na'aku send atu ke ke lave lave mai ai ka na'e IKAI 'uhinga ia 'oku 'ikai mahino kia au e ngaahi me'a ko ena. Ko 'ene a'u pe ki he author pea 'okulahi elau ia ki ai he 'oku 'ikai ala HOLA e Tohi ia mei he ngaahi SOURECE (J, D, P etc). Pea 'oku loloa.
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Ko 'eku fakamahamalo atu pe, SFaupula ki ho'omo talanoaa, pe 'oku mo fie fakalahi mai ki he peanga ni pe 'ikai, 'oku 'i ai hono konga hermeneutical 'ona, 'oke takai hake koe 'i he cultural, historical, sociological, geographical, political, theological, economical, literary, etc contexts - that will shed light on the author's meaning (conservative?), kae fie nofo pe 'a Lotopoha ia 'i he text in itself t(modernist?) simply to show mistakes/contradictions full stop, neongo 'oku ne pehee kuo loakaliu 'ene 'ilo ena, pea loolooa ia ki ai, so i think loto's project does NOT seek to discover the meaning of the author but to disaprove it together with its author from the text itself...hermeneutically argumentative 'aupito ia, 'o tatau pe 'e fie ha'u ki ai 'a Lotopoha pe 'ikai.
 
Hangee nai ko enii, ko e divine revelation nai foki 'e taha 'a e incarnation; in physical body - flesh, death, mistakes and fallible, therefore Jesus is not God at all? On the other hand, in ego - sinless, love, mercy, omnis, etc., therefore Christ is God? Hangee 'oku mo pehee, Veni - 'o fakamamafa'i 'e Lotopuha 'a e physical 'o e Tohii (revelation), pea ne pehee 'oku 'ikai 'Otua ia, ka ke fakamamafa'i 'e koe 'a hono ego 'o folofola tonu mai ai 'a e 'Otua, 'osi ko iaa, ko e tafa'aki kehekehe pe ia 'e ua 'o e revelation pe 'e taha. Hangee kiate au 'oku mo fakatou hala pe pea mo fakatou tonuu, ongo tangata he ko e divine revelation kotoa pe 'oku ne fakatou fiema'u 'a e physical 'a Lotopohaa, pea mo e self 'a'auu.
 
ko e sio fakakeviki pe...pea 'ofa pe 'oku ofi mai 'a telekitonga he fo'i fakalave ko eni...
--
fakapulia

sfaupula

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Apr 8, 2009, 10:31:10 PM4/8/09
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malo faifekau ka e mahalo pe 'oku ki'i kehekehe pe 'eku taukave 'aku mei ho'o fkkaukau. i wouldn't push the analogy as far as the incarnation because what we're dealing with here has more to do with revelation in language or god speaking - and all its forms - than god revealing himself physically (incarnation).
 
'oku 'i ai pe ho'o mo'oni faifekau, ka he 'ikai keu ngaue'aki 'e au e fklea fksaikaiatulisi ke fkmatala'i 'aki e fkkaukau 'o e felave'i 'a e 'otua pea mo 'ene folofola. 'oku ou tui pe faifekau 'oku 'ikai ke hanga 'e loto ia 'o tukuange 'a e author, he 'oku ne kei taukave'i pe 'e ia na'e hiki eni 'e ha kakai pea ko e tu'unga ia 'o e ngaahi fehalaaki.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 10:57 AM
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?]


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penisimani mone

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Apr 9, 2009, 10:49:24 AM4/9/09
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2009/4/8 sfaupula <sk...@bigpond.com>
malo faifekau ka e mahalo pe 'oku ki'i kehekehe pe 'eku taukave 'aku mei ho'o fkkaukau. i wouldn't push the analogy as far as the incarnation because what we're dealing with here has more to do with revelation in language or god speaking - and all its forms - than god revealing himself physically (incarnation).
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lotopoha: AUTHORITY pea FKMANAVA e written documents ka 'oku FONU HE MISTAKES PEA FALLIBILITY. Ko ia ai 'OKU 'IKAI MAFAI TATAU E 'OTUA MO E TOHITAPU. Pea 'oku PRIMARY OSURCE e folofola tohi pea toe 'IAI MO E NGAAHI MA'U'ANGATALA KEHE (totally dependent on LM).
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Mahalo ko 'eku third position ia, Veni, ke mo kataki 'o toe vakai mai ki ha toe divine revelation 'e taha, not only the inspired written document (Word/folofola) but also the incarnated Son (Word/folofola), na fakatou divine revalation loua pe nai, pea 'oku natula pehee pe nai 'a e divine revelation kotoa pe, 'o pau ke 'i ai hono form (physical body, Jesus, language, literary forms, cultural, historical, social, etc.?) mo hono essence (God, Christ, Spirit, in authority, who inspires, etc?). Why incarnate? to reveal. How reveal? in some form (either in physical body or written documents). But all forms (either in physical body or written documents) are fallible (ko koe ia Lotopoha?), so why incarnated? to reveal..shall we repeat again and again in this endless cycle just because God does not fit into any fallible form? Yet God wills to incarnate/reveal Godself in those fallible forms, 'e haa? te ke ta'ofi ia 'e koe Lotopoha 'ene incarnation/revelation in any form koe'uhi pe ke 'oua na'a tatau 'ene revelational form mo ia? I hope we are talking here of self-revealed God, not of one in mysterious. Forms (written or physical body) is only a side of the same coin, pea 'oku ou pehee pe Lotopoha ke 'oua te ke fakakuikui mei he essence (in same authrity, who inspires) he ko e tafa'aki pe ena ia 'e taha 'o e same revelation.

Ko ho'o fanongo mo ho'o lau mo malanga'i 'a e "'Ofa ki ho kaunga'apii 'o hangee pe ko ho'o 'ofa kiate koee," mei he Tohii, lalo tapakau pe fungavaka, 'oku less authoritative ia koe'uhi ko 'ene ha'u mei ha fallible written form 2000 ta'u, pe 'oku authoritative tatau pe ia mo ha folofola tonu mai 'a Kalaisi he 'aho ni ke tuku e ta'e'ofaa? 'Oku self-contradict kiate au 'a e lave ko ia - AUTHORITY pea FKMANAVA e written documents ka 'oku FONU HE MISTAKES PEA FALLIBILITY. Ko ia ai 'OKU 'IKAI MAFAI TATAU E 'OTUA MO E TOHITAPU.- so why incarnated? to reveal...shall we repeat the cycle again? Do you have a perfect form to match your perfect incarnated/revealed God? Do you? No? for if you do have such form then you know better than God who willed the fallible physical body or written documents. Fallible form does not really mean less authoritative or inspirational of God...see Jesus Christ?...similarilly so is, I believe, the inspired written documents.

Ki'i faingata'a mo koe SFaupula, kiate au pe ia, ko e 'ikai te ke ala tali 'oku fallible (pe 'oku 'i ai ha fo'i lea tonu ange ki ai?) e every whatever forms (physicl body, languages, literary forms, etc..) yet willed by God, ko ia koaa? "Na'a ne ngaohi ko e koto angahala (fallible form-physical body or written documents) 'a e Toko Taha ko ia na'e 'ikai te ne ongona ha angahala (essence- sinless Son, in authority, who inspires), koe'uhi ko kitautolu; koe'uhi ke tau hoko ai 'iate ia (Word-Folofola) ko e koto ma'oni'oni faka'otua" (2Kol 5:21), he kapau te ke toe holomui mei he mafai tatau 'a e incarnated Word Son pea mo 'ene revealed Word ducuments pea ko e haa leva ai hao faikehekehe mei he taukave 'a Lotopohaa pea 'oku mo 'ohofi looua leva 'e mo ua au ee..'ihi'ihi'ihi'i!!.ka tau ki'i malolo hee, ongo tangata he kuo Falaite Lelei, talamonuu atu...'Oi seuke!! Kuo 'u'ua e moaa, Pita ee, ki'i pine hifo!! Kuo kamata e fakamaau'i si'otau 'Eikii!!
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fakapulia

sfaupula

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Apr 10, 2009, 1:10:40 AM4/10/09
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faifekau, happy easter. ko e 'uhinga 'oku 'ikai keu teke atu ai e fktatau 'o e fallibility pea mo e incarnation he ko e take on 'e sisu e form of humanity 'oku kehe ia mei he humanity 'oku tau anga maheni mo ia. christ was true humanity in the sense that although he was fully human. fragile, weak, suffered, felt hunger, etc, he did not commit any wrong and he fully obeyed god - in the way human beings were suppose to. yes, god the father made him, and he willingly, became our substitute, by putting on him our sins, it does not mean that christ committed those sins on our behalf.
 
one thing which is unclear is that when we equate sin with fallibility, does that mean that the written documents (incarnate words of god) and the christ (incarnate son of god)could sin in the sense that humans commit sin, wrong, mistakes?
 
'oku ou tali kakato 'e au na'e hiki 'e he kakai 'oku fallible pe 'a e tohitapu. but weather they erred as they and the holy spirit cowritten scripture is what i would question.
 
malo e talanoa mai 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 12:49 AM
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?]

penisimani mone

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Apr 10, 2009, 7:36:29 PM4/10/09
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Malo pea mo'oni 'aupito ena ia, SFaupula, pea toe mahino ange kiate au 'a e ngaahi positions 'oku tau tu'u aii. Ko e "fallible" kiate au mahalo ko e "liable to err or be erroneous or accrate" and not "actul erring, mistaking," - to go astray in thought/belief, mistaken, be incorrect..Mahalo ko e 'uhinga ia na'a ke feinga ai kia Lotopoha ke liliu 'ene taukavee mei he "fallibility" - liability to err" ki he "errancy" he 'oku ne feinga ia mo 'ene foungaa mahalo, kiate au pe ia, ke ne prove from the actual texts 'oku err 'a e Tohii, (kau ai mo hono kau inspired authors?) kae 'ikai ke kei fallible pe, ..pea ke taukave leva koe Veni ke prove from those texts - 'oku ou tali kakato 'e au na'e hiki 'e he kakai 'oku fallible [liable to err - Veni, but actually mistaken - Lotopoha?] pe 'a e tohitapu. but weather they erred [actually mistaken, texts and authors -Lotopoha?]as they and the holy spirit cowritten scripture is what i would question. Kapau ko e anga ia ho'omo tu'uu pea 'oku toe mahino ange kiate au e issue, mo kataki pe he 'oku te motu'a kita pea tuai ke tulituli atu ki fonualoto.
 
Ngali leva kuo u 'oho atu au 'i ha saliote maumau 'o e actual nature of every divine revelation ee, (must have form and essence), pea u fakataataa leva au ki he incarnation (ko e toho fakataataa pe kae 'ikai ko ha fokotu'u issue fo'ou atu ia), 'o nagli natula tatau (not to be identifed as the same) ai 'a e revealed Son/Word pea mo e revealed Written Word - na fakatou have fallible form (physical body/physical book - liable to err) pea mo hona eternal essence (Son of God-not erred/eternal message-not erred). Ka ko e feinga pe foki eni SFaupula keu fakamaa'opo'opo pe kiate au 'etau fonongaa ke u 'alu maau kae tuku e kevikii ee..'ihi'ihi'ihi'i!!
 
Lahi pe foki SFaupula e ngaahi 'uhinga 'oku tau oo ai ki he Tohii, hangee nai ko ha sio'ata teuteu ia, oo 'a e ni'ihi ki ai to look into the mirror to see God - in self, Israel, etc..(essence), kae oo e ni'ihi ia ki ai to look at the mirror to see literary forms, socio-cultures, mistakes, makohikohi, mafahi, etc..(form) Ko 'eta sokosoka pe foki SFaupula mo tu'a'ofa ki fonualoto..teuteu ke paamavava 'a pongipongi na ee!! 'ofa atu aipe.

sfaupula

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Apr 13, 2009, 2:53:38 AM4/13/09
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faifekau, malo e ngaue mei hena pea kuo toetu'u mo'oni 'a e 'eiki. 'oku ke alasi mai 'e koe faifekau 'a e me'a ia 'oku te'eki ke vavevaea a'u ki ai e talanoa ia; 'a e eternal message. ka teu ki'i lepa si'i atu he na'a 'ikai lava ha ngaue hili e fu'u uike fkkoloa, fk'ofo'ofa, mo fkmanatu e fklelei ne fkhoko 'e he 'otua mo'o kitautolu 'i he kolosi pea kuo ne toetu'u 'o ha'ele hake 'o 'afio 'i hono taloni ko e pule 'i he 'etau ngaahi mo'ui. katoa pe ena faifekau 'oku ou fully agree pea tau toki sokosoka ai pe ai ha vaveni mai. cheers
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 9:36 AM
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?]

penisimani mone

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Apr 15, 2009, 10:00:06 AM4/15/09
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Lotopoha:
'Oku fk-koloa ho'o lave mai fkpulia he kuo 'aa'aasili ai e mahino mo e maama e me'a NE U feinga ke fkmatala ko e ngaahi potutohi pehe ni, 'e TU'ULOTOLOTO AI e mahu'inga 'o e ROLE 'a e tangata malanga, tangata faifekau pe faiako fkfolofola etc...(fkfalala he guide 'a LM e ni'ihi pea ko e ni'ihi 'oku FKOFIOFI ATU PE mo 'ai pe hano fu'u fo'i ha'o).
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Lotopoha mo Veni, mo 'ai'ai mai pe mo ua mei hena kau faka'uli saliote ve'etaha atu pe au mei heni ee, malie ee!!
 
1. Kapau 'oku tonu 'eku ma'uu, pea taa 'oku tau lolotonga fetakai pe 'i he form, (physical text/book, context, language, etc), pea 'oku te'eki te tau fu'u laka atu ki he essence (God, Christ, Holy Spirit, etc), 'a ia 'oku witness ki ai 'a e form, mo toki fakatonutonu mai pe au ee.
 
2. Ko ho'o lave ko eni Lotopoha - 'e TU'ULOTOLOTO AI e mahu'inga 'o e ROLE 'a e tangata malanga, tangata faifekau pe faiako fkfolofola etc.., 'oku ne ngali toe tanaki mai 'e ia ha pule 'e taha 'e ala pule ki he meaning 'o e text, 'a ia ko e readers. Ko ia ko e kau ala pule leva he taimi ni ki he meaning of the scriptures ko e author, text itself, pe ko e readers.
 
3. lotopoha:
AUTHORITY pea FKMANAVA e written documents ka 'oku FONU HE MISTAKES PEA FALLIBILITY. Ko ia ai 'OKU 'IKAI MAFAI TATAU E 'OTUA MO E TOHITAPU. Pea 'oku PRIMARY OSURCE e folofola tohi pea toe 'IAI MO E NGAAHI MA'U'ANGATALA KEHE (totally dependent on LM).
 a) Fakatou authoritative 'a e 'Otuaa mo e written document, ka 'oku 'ikai te na mafai tatau, 'o mafai si'isi'i ange nai 'a e tohitapuu 'i he 'Otuaa koe'uhi he 'oku fonu e written documents ia he mistakes. Fefe kapau 'e prove 'oku 'ikai ha mistakes ai, te na mafai tatau leva?
 
e) Kapau 'oku mafai si'isi'i ange 'a e tohi tapuu 'i he 'Otua 'oku ne fakamo'oni ki aii, 'e 'uhinga nai eni ke tau talangofua si'isi'i pe ki he tohi tapuu, mo tau talitali ke toki talangofua lahi pe ki he 'Otuaa 'i ha'ane toki folofola haohaoa hangatonu mai without any fallible form?
 
f) 'Oku tui foki 'a Sione Uesilee ki he primary 'a e tohi tapuu 'o 'ikai hano toe ua, 'o tatau aipe pe pe ko e toe hai ha tohi. Ko e "totally dependent on LM" ko enii, 'e ala fakakau ki ai mo e koran 'a e Islam, pea mo e Pearl, Mormons, Prophesies 'a e Mamongaa, Kohas 'a e Guru, etc, he 'oku nau taukave foki mo nautolu 'oku divinely inspired mo 'enau ngaahi tohi tapuu? Pe 'oku 'uhinga eni ia ki ha kau ma'u fakahaa hangatonu haohaoa mei he LM?
 
h) Ngali 'oku tau tui tatau 'i he inspiration 'o e tohi tapuu, ka ko SFaupula - inspired e author, book in itself, pea mo e reader 'i he'ene lauu; ko Lotopoha - toki inspired pe 'a e book 'i hono toki to'o 'e ha taha 'o fakaava mo lau. Kau toki fakasio atu pe pe teu kau ki fee ee.
 
Mo palau atu pe ongo tangata, kau toki tisi atu pe mei mui ni ee. malie ee!!
--
fakapulia

penisimani mone

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Apr 16, 2009, 9:59:39 AM4/16/09
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Lotopoha:
Ko e'uhi pe ko e hanga mai e uike kaha'u mo e teu e FKAMANATU 'O E ha'ele fktu'i, 'oku u fie 'atu ai e potu tohi ko eni ke fai ha sio ki ai.
 mtt 21:2-3 folofola 'a Sisu ke na oo 'o 'omai e 'asi 'e 2 ('uhiki mo 'ene fa'ee)
mk 11;2-3 folofola 'a Sisu ke na oo 'o 'omai e 'asi'e 1('uhiki pe)
lk 19:30-31 folofola 'a Sisu ke na oo 'o 'omai e 'asi 'e 1('uhiki pe)
 Fo'i fekau pe TATAU PE 'E TAHA, mei he tama 'e taha ki he feitu'u tatau ke 'omai e me'a (1 mo 2). Ne omitt 'e mk mo lk e me'a 'ia mtt, pe ko mtt ne addition ki he folofola 'a Sisu. Ko hai kuo ne fksi'isi'i mo fklahi e folofola 'a Sisu? pe 'oku 'ataa pe eni ia mei he fkkaukau ko ia? Ne folofola TU'O 2 PE TU'OLAHI ANGE 'a Sisu ia ki he ongo tama?
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1) Hangee kia te au, ko e fa'ahinga lau tohi tapu nai eni ('i 'olungaa) 'a e kau modernists, 'o 'ikai te nau fa'a mamafa ki ha 'uhinga 'a e real author takitaha ki he'enau hikitohi e text takitaha, ka nau hangatonu pe kinautolu ki he text itself 'o faka'uhinga pe ai. Pea neongo 'oku nau recognise e real author, ka 'oku nau fakasisina ia 'e kinautolu ke longo, kae fai'aki honau fakamaauu 'aki 'a e lau 'a e tohi kuo nau hikitohii, eg "Ko hai kuo ne fakasi'isi'i mo fakalahi 'a e folofola 'a Sisu?"
 
2. Kapau ko ia, pea ko e meaning leva 'o e text kiate kinautolu 'oku neither behind nor infront but in the text itself. Nau malohi leva 'i he text language, literary forms, etc, 'o 'ikai te nau fa'a takai hake kinautolu 'i he socio-cultural econnomics, etc 'o e author.
 
3. Ko hono contrast pehe na 'o e ngaahi witnesses/versions ko e me'a ia 'a e police records, and as I have said before, Scriptures is neither of the police nor of the law court but of the community of faith. Pea ko 'ete 'alu atu fakapolisi ko ee 'o 'eke'eke ki he kau real authors - "Ko hai kuo ne fakasi'isi'i mo fakalahi 'a e folofola 'a Sisu?" 'oku te abuse leva 'e kita 'enau witnesses ki he'ete agenda pe 'a'ata.
 
4. Ko e lau tohi tapu ko ee 'a e kau conservatives, 'oku nau fakamamafa kinautolu 'i he real author's intent, nau toe fa'a fekumi atu ki he socio-cultural economics, etc 'o e author, for the meaning of the text is may be behind the text itself, nau recogise pe 'a e ngaahi faikehekehe 'o e ngaahi witnesses, ka 'oku nau fakamaau'i pe 'e nautolu 'a e author takitaha 'i he'ene fakamo'oni tohi pe 'a'ana. eg. Malanga'i pe 'a e fakamo'oni 'a Matiuu 'ia Matiu pe, pe Ma'ake 'i he lau pe 'a Ma'akee, etc.
 
5. Ko e fa'ahinga comparative, or contrastive study of the bible ko ena 'i 'olungaa 'a Lotopohaa, 'oku hangee ia 'oku 'ikai look into the mirror to see Christ on a colt/ass/donkey, ka 'oku look at the mirror to see mistakes/contradictions/fallibilities - 'osi ha'u pe nai e readers ia mo 'ene agenda to abuse the witnesses of faith for readers' intent.
 
mahalo 'oku tau kei 'i he form pee ee, ko e keviki atu....
--
fakapulia

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Rev. Sisitoutai Taufa

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Apr 16, 2009, 6:27:51 PM4/16/09
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Peni [fkpulia] Ko ho'o fo'i comment kimui  he lau ko eni 'a Lotopoha tanaki atu pe eni ki ai,hange 'oku ne tafulu'i 'e ia 'a Matiu mo Ma'ake mo Luke ,kole ange mu'a ki ai ke 'alu ia 'o Hiki ha'ane tohi,tau sio 'akapulu tatau pe he fo'i tau pe 'e  taha,ka te tau kei kehekehe 'etau fakamatala ki he me'a tatau,ka te ne kei ma'u 'a e fo'i vainga,nau kei takitaha 'a e 'atamai lelei ki he'enau ngaue,tonu pasika atu ho'o addition.

penisimani mone

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Apr 17, 2009, 1:11:47 AM4/17/09
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'Ikai foki Sisi ke tau lave'i pe ko e fievaleloi eni 'a Lotopuha pe ko 'ene fakamatalili, he na'e fa'a manako pe 'i he'emau kei 'i siaa ki hono fakatete'e 'o e fanga ki'i fo'ihangataamakii ke foolahii.
 
Lotopoha:
Koe liliu 'a Thomas West 'oku ngaue'aki ia 'e he Tonga Tau'ataina mo e ngaahi siasi ni'ihi pea ko e liliu leva 'a Moulton 'oku ngaue'aki ia 'e he Uesiliana mo e ngaahi siasi ni'ihi. 'Oku ha he ongo liliu koeni e kehekehe pea 'oku lahi pe 'a e ngaahi kehekehe ke tokanga'i ka 'oku ou fie ngaue'aki pe 'a e fktaataa mahino ki he'ena liliu kuo fai ki he fo'i lea TUI.
 West - tui
Moluton - tuipikitai
 Ko e FATONGIA leva ia 'o e motu'a malanga, faiako tohitapu, vete tohitapu etc. ke ne hanga 'o FKMA'ALA'ALA mai mo 'oatu e 'UHINGA 'o e kehekehe ko eni pea mo hono LELEI mo e 'IKAI LELEI ki he tafa'aki fk-lau 'o e tohitapu pea pehee ki he vavanga 'e faafaamai'aki 'e he kakai he levolo takapau.
-----------
Malo Lotopoha ho'o fie afea mai 'a e paenga ni, 'ofa atu ki he ako 'oku faii mo e teuteu ki he'etau ngauee. Ki'i faka'eke'eke atu pe, 'oku 'i ai nai ha'o fakamatala ki he 'uhinga 'o e ongo faikehekehe ko ena 'i 'olungaa ke mau ako ai leva? Kapau ko ha faifekau koe, pe motu'a malanga, faiako tohitapu, vete tohitapu, etc, pea ko ho fatongia ke ke fakama'ala'ala mai 'a e 'uhinga 'o e kehekehe ko enii kia mautolu levolo takapauu, ko e haa nai ha'o fakama'ala'ala mai? pe ko ho'o 'ai pe ke fai atu ia 'e he kakai kehee ka ke 'ela pe koe? 'Oku fai ha'o fakatotolo 'i he history of the text? Neu kamata 'uakai atu au he neu pehee te ke fakama'ala'ala mai ai leva 'a e 'uhinga 'o 'ena faikehekehee he ko e fe'inasi'aki foki eni, tukukehe kapau ko ho'o 'ai mai pee ke mau toe ninimo ange kau lalotakapauu.
 
kapau 'e 'ikai te ke ala fakama'ala'ala mai ke mau ako ai (faith seeking understanding), pea taa ko ho'o langatoi pe, pea teu toe ala foki pe au ki ho'o tefito'i taukave 'uluakii, that you systematically pick these particular texts to prove that the written documents of the Scriptures are fallible/mistakes/contradict/errors (= erred?) in many ways (understood seeking faith). We, the lalo takapau, somehow know these differences but we don't shout - "MISTAKES!!! CONTRADICTION!!! We have enough problems in trying to do what we seem to understand of the text, trying to discredit it with its so called MISTAKES, factual errors, contradictions, fallibilities or whatever make us doubt/sceptic of its eternal promises.
 
But if your project is to prove to us, lalo tapakau, that the written documents are fallible (liable to err but yet to be proved erred), my friend, everybody knows that, for every divine revelation, even the incarnation, must have fallible forms. Manatu ai Abdul ki he project 'e taha, fakataha atu 'a e kakai 'o e koloo ke fanongo ki he'ene final findings - "Ladies and gentlemen...after serious researches for so many years.... I have come to a final conclusion that ....tobacco and cigarettes are same things.
 
...'alu hooorse...ha kuo mamio ai e saliotee ia ...ko e form aipe...
--
fakapulia

sfaupula

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Apr 17, 2009, 4:27:11 AM4/17/09
to tasilisili
ko e tefito'i fkkaukau 'a loto 'oku pehe ni, "Ka 'oku mahino heni [5:39], 'a e hanga 'e SISU ('ALO-'OTUA) 'o fkfaikehekehe'i mai hono TU'UNGA pea mo e tohitapu.
 
ko e fehu'i - ko e 'uhinga nai eni 'o e potutohi koeni pe ko e 'uhinga pe eni ia 'a lotopoha 'oku ne ngaue'aki ke mio'i'aki e potu tohi koeni ke tatau mo 'ene agenda? did the author intent for this text to be used in such a way as to point out the difference between jesus and scripture? was the author, or jesus, trying to differentiate between scripture and christ in this text and verse? ko 'eku tali ki ai ko e affirmative NO! ka kimu'a peau toki lave ki he 'uhinga 'oku 'ikai keu tali ai e fktonulea koeni 'a loto (and i will show how loto have twisted this text), teu ki'i tomu'a alasi leka e fkkaukau 'a loto 'ko e malohinga 'o sione 'a e talanoa tu'unga.'
 
ko e tu'unga (status) 'o sisu 'i hono ngaue'aki 'e sne 'oku 'ikai ke fk'ikai'i ai e fkkaukau ko e tohitapu ko e folofola tonu ia 'a e 'otua pea na'e fkmanava'i 'e he laumalie 'a e konga tohi kotoa pe (ie. ko e ngaahi fo'ilea kotoa pe ko e tomanava - lea mai - ia 'a e 'otua).
 
'oku pehe 'e loto ko sne 1:1 - sisu ko 'otua - 'oku ha mahino mai ai 'a e 'ikai ke tu'unga tatau 'a sisu moe tohitapu. but, hang on! did john wanted to make such a point that jesus is different from scripture in this opening verse of his book? i strongly refute such a claim, because john made no such qualification in this opening verse: nor did john wish to make a contrast between jesus and scripture in this.
 
ko e kamata'anga 'o e tohi koeni 'a sne 'oku ongona mai ai 'a e 'uluaki fklea 'o e tohi senesi - 'i he kamata'anga. here john is making a link between jesus and the Word which created the universe. so, rather than trying to distinguish between scripture and jesus, as loto would have us believe, john made a connection between the Word that created the world and Jesus. 'ikai ko ia pe ka 'oku fktau 'e sne 'ene kosipeli ki he fuakava motu'a 'aki 'a e canonical link between the first words of the ot pea moe 'uluaki fklea 'o 'ene folofola.
 
yes, john is making the claim that jesus is life, but that does not mean he is contrasting and comparing jesus with scripture. kapau te tau fktokanga'i 'a e fanga ki'i nuances 'o e fkmatala 'a sne, 'oku vaofi ange 'a e folofola (in speech form) pea mo sisu, he ko e fo'i folofola (words) 'a sisu 'oku 'ia 'a e mafai ke fktupu. god did not fashioned the universe with his hands (metaphically speaking) ka na'a ne fktupu 'aki 'a 'ene folofola (word - lea).
 
ko e fkkaukau ia 'oku muimui ki ai e fm 'i he taimi ko ee 'oku nau pehe ai ko e folofola 'a e 'otua 'oku 'i ai hono mafai: he speaks and things come into being (ftt. gen 1:3, 9, 11, 15, 24, 29-30). ko e saame mo e kau palofita 'oku ha ai 'a hono personified e folofola (lea - words) 'a e 'otua (saa.33:6, 107:20, 147:15, 18; 'aisea 55:10-11). 
kaekehe, ko sne pe 'oku ne toki fktau 'a e folofola 'a e 'otua 'i he fm kia sisu (sne1:14, 17). the connection between words in the ot and jesus in this regard is difficult not to miss and there is nothing in this texts which hint that jn is differentiating between jesus and scripture.
 
ka tau ki'i vakai ange mu'a kia sne 5:39 pe 'oku hanga ko aa 'e sne ai 'o fkfaikehekehe'i 'a sisu pea mo e tohitapu (ot scripture), 'o hange ko e taukave 'a lotopoha.
 
ko e talanoa koeni 'oku ha ai 'a hono fkmo'ui 'e sisu e tangata mahaki'ia pea mo e fepaki 'a sisu mo e kau falesi koe'uhi ko e maumau'i 'e sisu 'a e sapate (5:1-47). ka 'i he 'ataakai (the context in which this narrative lies) 'o e talanoa koeni 'oku 'i ai e sio matalalahi 'a sne ki he ngaahi fk'ilonga 'oku ne tala ai 'a e tu'unga 'otua 'o sisu (high christology of christ) [1:19-12:50].
 
'i he talanoa koeni 'o e faifkmo'ui 'a sisu, 'oku hanga ai 'e sne 'o fke'a 'a e tu'unga 'otua 'o sisu, 'o 'ikai ngata pe 'i he'ene fkmo'ui 'a e mahaki'ia (the lame), ka 'oku overrule 'e sisu ia 'a e lao 'o e sapate, precisely because he is working just as the father works (5:17). in other words, kapau 'oku ngaue 'a e 'otua, 'a ia na'a ne fokotu'u 'a e sapate, 'oku taau ai pe mo e 'alo ke ngaue ia 'i he sapate (ftt. 4:34). ko ia ai, kapau 'oku 'ata ki he 'otua ke ngaue mo pule ki he sapate, koeha ko aa ai ka 'ikai ke fai pehe foki mo e 'alo? this is the context in which the controversy is framed by jn, pea 'oku poupou ki he fkkaukau koeni, 'o e taha 'a sisu mo e tamai, mo e pule 'a sisu ki he sapate, 'a e ngaahi lau 'a sisu 'o hange ko ia 'i he 5:17-47.
 
kapau te tau fktokanga'i fklelei 'a e fepaki koeni 'a sisu mo e kau falesi, 'oku tu'u loto ai e me'a ko e fktonulea 'o e fm. 'a ia, ko e ngaahi lau 'a sisu 'i he konga koeni, ke fktonuhia'i'aki 'ene ngaue 'i he sapate, ko e ngaahi fktonulea ia 'a sisu ki he fuakava motu'a. vakai ki he ngaahi me'a koeni - v.19 (ftt. nom.16:28), v.21 (ftt. teut. 32:39, 1 sam. 2:6, 2 tu'i 5:7), 5:22 (ftt. sen. 18:25, fkm. 11:27, saa. 2:2), v.26 (ftt. sen. 2:7, sop. 10:12, 33:4, saa. 36:9), v.31 (ftt. teut. 17:6, 19:5, nom. 35:30), v.38 (ftt. sios 1:8-9, saa. 119:11 - this last point is a contrast between pharisees and people who listened to god).   
 
given that the controversy revolves around interpreation of the ot and that jesus use this method of superior knowledge of scripture to overwhelm and refute pharisaic opposition, 'oku mahino ko e palopalema ko e anga 'enau hakule 'a e tohi, kae 'ikai ko e tohi 'iate ia pe.
 
'oku fklea 'e sisu 'o pehe, "'oku mou hakule 'a e tohitapu: koe'uhi 'oku mou mahalo 'oku tu'u ai ho'omou ma'u 'a e mo'ui ta'engata: pea ko ia ia 'oku fkmo'oni kiate au."
 
given that right and wrong interpretation leads to mis/understanding who jesus is, 'oku tonu ange ketau pehe ko e founga hakule 'a e kau falesi na'e palopalema. he 'oku nau pehee ko 'enau founga hakule - diligently searching the scriptures - 'oku palopalema, he 'oku nau pehe 'e ma'u e mo'ui ta'engata 'i he anga 'enau fekumi. hange pe ia ko e fkkaukau 'atautolu ko ee he ngaahi 'aho ni, ko e toutoulau e folofola 'e ma'u ai e mo'ui. ko e mo'ui 'e ma'u ia 'i hono tali angavaivai e folofola 'a e 'otua, pea mo fai ki ai (sem. 1:23). 'ofa mai a 'o tali e folofola 'a e 'otua!!!! hahahehehe!
 
loto, ko e konga tohi ena ia 'oku ne talamai ke 'oua te tau mimimimio e tohi ke tatau mo 'etau fkkaukau. 'oku taau ange ke ke 'uluaki ngungu'i e 'uhinga 'o e tohi 'iate ia pe pea ke toki velo tavale hifo ki ai your own hermeneutical grid and presupositions.
 
koeha ko aa e role 'a e theologians? hehehahaah.
 
ka pau 'oke ngaue hala'aki e konga tohi koeni, 'e fefe ai ha tonu e toenga tohi 'oku ke ngaue'aki. hehehhahah! 'alu ai sia!!!
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 4:16 AM
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?]

'oku mou HAKULE 'a e tohitapu koe'uhi 'oku MOU mahalo 'oku TU'U ai e MO'UITA'ENGATA: pea ko ia ia 'oku FKMO'ONI kiate au"(SIONE 5:39).
 
Kosipeli 'a Sione ko hono MALOHINGA koe TALANOA TU'UNGA. 'Oku ne hikitaa pe moe FKHAAHAA e tu'unga 'o SISU ko e 'ALO-'OTUA ia (1:1). Ko e potutohi ko ena 'i 'olunga (6:39), 'oku ne HANGA 'O TATALA E 'ATAMAI MO E FKKAUKAU 'A E KAU AKO MEI HE fkkaukau ko e tohitapu (FM -2tim 3:16-17, 'e ala kau ai pe mo e FF ko eni he lolotonga ni) 'oku mei ai e MO'UI. Ka 'oku mahino heni, 'a e hanga 'e SISU ('ALO-'OTUA) 'o fkfaikehekehe'i mai hono TU'UNGA pea mo e tohitapu.
1). tohitapu ko e fkmo'oni pe ia kiate IA (pe ki he MO'UI)
2). tohitapu 'oku 'IKAI KE KAKUNGA PE TATAU HONO MAFAI mo e 'OTUA.
3). tohitapu 'oku 'IKAI TU'U AI HA MO'UI 'E TAHA (neongo ne lau fkpatonu ki he mo'ui 'oku ope atu ia).
4). 'oku lefu fau e tohitapu ia ki hano FA'O AI pe TU'U AI HA MO'UI hangee ko e MO'UITA'ENGATA (SISU).
5). ko e tohitapu 'oku 'IKAI ko ia e me'a ke TU'ULOTOLOTO 'i hotau VAA mo e 'OTUA pea pehee ki he KAUNGA'API, ka ko LM.
KOE TOHITAPU, KO E TOHI PE IA 'OKU NE FKMATALA MO TALANOA ki he MO'UI (SISU/'OTUA).
 
SIONE 6:63
Ko e laumalie pe 'oku ne ngaohi ke mo'ui;...ko e ngaahi lea 'oku ou fai 'e au kiate kimoutolu, ko e koto laumalie ia pea ko e koto mo'ui.
IKolinito 3:6
"'aia foki na'a ne ngaohi kimautolu ke fe'unga mo homau lakanga, ko e kau TALAFEKAU 'o e Fuakava Fo'ou, 'o 'IKAI 'O HA TOHI, ka 'o ha LAUMALIE. He 'oku nofo 'a e tohi ke tamate, ka 'oku nofo 'a e laumalie ke fkmo'ui (Fekau 'e 10 nai eni pe ko e FM katoa?)
 
Lau 'a Paula (2Kol.3:3),
"...'aia 'oku 'ikai fai'aki 'a e vaitohi, kae 'aki 'a e Laumalie 'o e 'Otua Mo'ui, 'o 'ikai tongi 'i ha ngaahi tohi'anga maka, ka 'i ha ngaahi tohi'anga mo'ui, ka ko e
ngaahi loto."
 
3). 'Oku 'ikai ke u falala 'e mafai tatau e tohitapu mo e 'Otua 'i ha'ane HALA mo ha mistakes pe ko ha'ane mo'ua 'i ha mistakes. Hangee pe eni ko 'eku lave 'i 'olunga, 'Oku 'ikai fkfalala e mo'oni ia 'o e 'Otua he fanga ki'i mokimoki'i me'a pehe. Pea 'e tatau ai pe ki hono Mafai.
 
Mo'oni pe ho'o lave fkpulia, ko au ia 'oku ou kei nofo atu he FORM (tohi, lea,texts etc) koe'uhi ko 'eku lave'i 'oku heka LOOUA MAI AI e ongo tama ko eni:
1). ko e lea he tohi ko e produce 'e he tangata/fefine
2). ko e fo'i fekau he lea ko ia, ko e fekau fklangi ia.
 
ko e angamaheni, ko e LEA MAI 'a e 'Otua 'o fou mai he tangata (lea fk-tonga, hepelu pe kalisi etc. = tohitapu). tokanga leva e SIASI ke pukepuke 'a fufula e tohi ko eni ko e PRIMARY SOURCE ia 'a e Kalisitiane. Fihia au, ko e TAUAKAVE'I 'o pehee 'oku INFALLIBLE 'a e production of human beings. Fkkaukau au ia fkpulia ko e OLA eni 'a e ngaue 'a e tangata 'i hono FKIVIA 'e LM, pea kuopau pe ke FALLIBLE ia, koe'uhi he ko e 'Otua pe tokotaha 'oku INFALLIBLE.
 
Ko e INFALLIBLE word (s) ia 'a ee 'ia (Sione 6:63) "...lea ko e koto laumalie pea ko e koto mo'ui".(lea 'a Sisu). Matamata, ko e folofola ko e laumalie ia mo e mo'ui 'o KEHE 'AUPITO ia mei he TOHI. 'Oku toe lave pe mo Paula ki ai (2Kolinito 3:3), "'aia 'oku 'ikai fai'aki 'a e vaitohi kae 'aki 'a e Laumalie 'o e 'Otua." 
 
'Oku kaunga nai e fa'ahinga texts pehe ni ki he Authority mo e FKMANAVA'I 'o e tohitapu?
 
mahalo ko e lafo eni kuo mole e ivi he takai kae too mai pe ia he mamaha ee!
 
'ofa atu mo e lotu
lotopoha

penisimani mone

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Apr 17, 2009, 9:05:49 AM4/17/09
to tasil...@googlegroups.com
Lotopoha:
AUTHORITY pea FKMANAVA e written documents ka 'oku FONU HE MISTAKES PEA FALLIBILITY. Ko ia ai 'OKU 'IKAI MAFAI TATAU E 'OTUA MO E TOHITAPU. Pea 'oku PRIMARY OSURCE e folofola tohi pea toe 'IAI MO E NGAAHI MA'U'ANGATALA KEHE (totally dependent on LM).
-------------
Malo Lotopoha e fe'inasi'aki, 'o tau fevakavakai'aki pe ko e haa ha'ate lelei 'e ala to'o mei he tokoni mai 'a ha toe taha kehe. Neu mei pehee 'e au kuo ke 'osi fokotu'uma'u 'e koe ha'o fa'ahinga tui ki he tohi tapuu 'o defend to death from the text.
 
Manatu'i pe Abdul 'i ho'o thesis statement 'i 'olungaa, ko ho'o pehee ko ee 'oku fonu he mistakes/errancies 'a e written documets 'o e Scriptures, to me, it is a sweeping statement that calls us Christian into battles, for our salvation rests on the One witnesses for by our Holy Book. You see? Such dare statement shakes the whole christian kingdom. Faingofua ia kiate koe ke ke fakatalatala mai mei ai ha'o fa'ahinga mistakes pe 'oku ke fie 'uhinga ki ai, ka ko mautolu ko eni kau lalo takapauu, te mau ala faka'uhinga ai mautolu kuo mistakes ai mo e promises of God written in the scriptures. You see? Pea neongo 'oku ke taukave 'oku 'ikai nenefu pe loi ai 'a e kosipelii 'i ho'o Form Criticism, kataki pe, ka 'oku fa'a a'u mai ho'o "mistakes" 'au ki lalo takapau ni kuo mistakes ai mo e kosipelii ia.
 
Kae sai pe, tau toki laulau lelei pe ho'o 'uu posts pea taa ko e fanga ki'i "mistakes" leka pe ia, false alarm pe title ia 'o 'ikai te ke uesia 'e koe 'a e essence, pea tau sokosoka aipe tautolu he forms. Ko e me'aa pe na'a 'oku ou 'ohonoa atu au mei vao ni 'i ha tipeiti pe ia 'a ha ongo 'apiako teolosia 'iloa 'i Australia na, hangee ko e fa'a tipeiti ko ee 'a e kau scholars 'o Aniteoke mo Alexandria ee, mo kaakaa ee!! hee heeee!!! Kae hoko atu aa ho'omo palauu 'amoua, kau toki fa'a 'a'ahi atu pe ke vakai na'a lava ke tisi'i. 
--
fakapulia

sfaupula

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Apr 17, 2009, 11:10:30 AM4/17/09
to tasilisili
malie mo'oni ko e fkkaukau ia koeni loto. how about we give your theory a test case senarion.
 
'oku ke talamai 'oku 'ikai ke fkfalala 'a e mo'oni ia 'a e 'otua "he tonu mo e fehalaaki fkliliu pe hikitohi 'o e tohitapu."
 
kapau 'oku ke tui ko e 'otua 'oku 'ikai ke loi, is it not the obligation of those who give their witness about god to be truthful and not make misleading mistakes in their witness about god? kapau 'oku fehalaaki e witness about god, why would god allow such thing especially when this would lead to a misunderstanding of who he is? is it not god's oligation to his creatures to give them evry opportunity to know about him in a truthful and non misleading manner? if you think it does not matter weather the records about god be right, then you need to think again. the implication here will be that we have a god who does not care about wrong infos about him and his truth. maybe that's your kind of god, ka kimautolu koeni 'atamai vaivai, 'oku pau ke tatau e 'otua ia pea moe me'a 'oku ne fkha ia ki he tangata. this is an outright rejection of the moral implication of a god that is holy, righteous, lea mo'oni, etc.
 
loto, do i detect a full hearted validation of my argument when you say, "HANGEE pe ko e FENGAUE'AKI 'a LM mo e FA'UTOHI, pea 'e pehee pe 'a e PAU KE FENGAUE'AKI 'A LM mo e TAHA TE NE toki ALASI e tohi ke LAU. 'e mahu'inga ki he kau lautohi 'i faleni 'oka pau te ke ki'i vetevete mai ange ho'o 'uhinga koeni.
 
tuku keu ki'i 'alo'alo atu he fkkaukau 'o e fkmanava'i (inspired) 'o e tohitapu.
 
'uluaki pe me'a, 'oku 'ikai ke 'uhinga e fkmanava'i ia 'e he 'otua 'a e folofola 'o hange ko ia 'oku ke toutou fk'uhinga'i 'i faleni. 'a ia, 'oku 'ikai ko e fkkaukau 'ia 2 tm 3:16-17 ko e hoo 'a laumalie ki he ngaahi konga tohi. mole ke mama'o! and i hope you don't bring it up again because no one in their right mind would interpret this passage in such a way.
 
ua, 'oku poupou e fkkaukau 'ia 2 pt 1:20-21 ki he fkkaukau ko e fklea 'e he 'otua 'a e folofola, he 'oku talamai 'e pita, "ka mou 'ilo mu'a, 'ilonga ha palofisai 'i he tohitapu, na'e 'ikai tupu ia mei ha fk'uhinga 'a ha tangata. he kuo te'eki si'i ke 'omeia ha palofisai 'i he tu'utu'uni 'a e tangata: ka na'e fklea mei he 'otua ha kau tangata 'i he takina kinautolu 'e he laumalie ma'oni'oni."
 
kimu'a pea tau hoko atu loto, 'oku tonu ke mahino 'aupito, 'aupito kiate kitautolu ko e ngaahi prophetical witness ki he 'otua both in oral and written forms 'i he tohitapu na'e 'ikai ke tupu ia mei ha fk'uhinga 'a ha tangata (as you argue). this clearly runs counter to your idea that scripture is man's witness only (yes interpretation is involved even in written testimony) to god.
 
ko e fkmanava 'e he 'otua 'a e konga tohi kotoa pea mo hono takina 'e he lm 'a e kakai na'a nau palofisai ma'ae 'otua.
 
ko 2 tm 'oku 'i ai ha ngaahi fkhinohino fklaumalie (pastoral) 'a paula kia timote pea ko e vahe 3 'oku hanga ai 'e paula 'o fkfaikehekehe'i 'a e kakai 'oku 'ikai taau ke muimui ki ai 'a mote pea mo e kakai mo e me'a 'oku taau ke tu'u ai e tokanga 'a mote.
 
ko e 'uluaki e me'a 'oku taau ke fa'ifa'itaki mo tokanga ki ai 'a mote, 'i he lau 'a paula, ko e ngaahi faiako mo e to'onga 'a paula lolotonga 'ene fekuki mo e ngaahi mamahi. ua e me'a ko e kakai na'e tupu hake ai 'a mote pea mo e talu 'ene valevale kuo ne maheni mo e tohitapu. ko e tohitapu koeni 'i he fkmatala 'a paula, 'oku ne mafai ke fkpoto 'a timote ke ne ma'u 'a e fkmo'ui 'oku 'i he tui 'oku 'ia kalaisi sisu (v.15). 'i he v.16 leva 'oku fkmahino ange 'e paula kia mote ko e fotu folofola kotoa pe - the ephasis here is on the individual portions and words of scripture for that's how the word 'pas' (every/all) is normally used in the greek pea mo hono fa'a ngaue'aki 'e paula 'a e fo'ilea 'folofola' without the article 'o hange ko ia 'oku ne ngaue'aki heni - ko e fkmanava mei he 'otua. fktokanga'i foki loto ko e 'otua 'oku ne fkmanava (inspired,) 'a e potu tohi kotoa pe pea ko lm na'a ne takina 'a e kau lea palofisai ma'ae 'otua. ko e fkmanava 'i he konga koeni 'oku 'uhinga ia ki hono breathed out 'e he 'otua 'a e ngaahi fo'i lea kotoa.
 
ko e taimi 'e ni'ihi ko 'etau fa'a talaange ko ee ki ha taha 'oku lea mai kia kita - "ko ho'o manava mai koena etc, etc...." 'oku 'uhinga tau 'uhinga ki he'ene lea mai kae 'ikai ko ha'ane hoo mai. 'oku tatau eni mo e fkkaukau 'o e fkmanava mei he 'otua 'a e konga tohi kotoa pe. 'a ia, ko e konga tohi kotoa pe ko e lea mai ia 'a e 'otua.
 
he'ikai teu tokanga au heni ki hono apply e fkkaukau koeni ki he toenga e tohitapu (ff) pea moe ngaahi tohi 'i he fm 'oku ala 'uhinga ki ai 'a paula, he ko e toki me'a kehe ia 'e toki fai ki ai ha tokanga 'amui ange; and i don't want to dwell too much on how the process of inspiration took place because paul takes it for granted that the finished product was inspired by god. 'a ia, 'oku 'ikai ke fu'u mahu'inga pe na'e angafefe hono fkmanava mei he 'otua 'a e folofola. ko e me'a na'e mahu'inga ko e feinga 'a paula ke mahino kia mote 'oku taau ke muimui ki he ngaahi lau 'a e folofola, he ko e fkmanava (ngaahi lea) ia mei he 'otua, - god breathed out the words that was written - pea 'oku "'aonga ia foki ki he akonaki, ki he fk'ilo hala, ki he fktonutonu, ki he ngaohia ke ma'oni'oni: - [and take note of this loto] koe'uhia ke tu'u kakato 'a e tangata fk'otua, kuo sauni ki he ngaue lelei fulipe" (2 tm 3:17).
 
it is not too difficult to work out from paul's words that he did view scripture as authoritative because they were god's very words. ko e 'uhinga ia na'a ne akonekina ai kia mote ke tokanga ki he tohitapu.
 
if you're genuine about your role as a theologian, i would encourage you to read the recent stuff which deal with how words can function and act. that might give you some idea of how god's words can function 'iate ia pe, simply because it's god's words.
 
ko e ki'i fifili pe eni ia loto. kapau ko e folofola ko e witness pe ia 'a e tangata (as you clearly claim there is no involvement by god in their writing of the texts), na'e angafefe 'a hono hiki e taniela, 'aisea, etc 'a e ngaahi me'a na'e te'eki ke hoko ia 'i honau taimi?
 
'ikai ke ngata ai, how could jesus say that the ot witness about him, when the people who wrote the ot were merely men? did they possess some sort of special power, to write about a person and events that would come into the world and do the things he did precisely the way it did?
 
HOW WOULD YOU EXPLAIN THESE QUESTIONS TO PEOPLE (and tell them the truth) WHEN YOU CLAIM KO E TOHITAPU KO E FKMO'ONI (MAN MADE WITNESS) PE IA KI HE 'OTUA, HE NA'E HIKI PE IA 'E HE KAKAI TA'E KAU AI E 'OTUA?
 
kataki lotopoha, ka mea ni ko e fokotu'utu'u pe ia 'a e tangata 'ata'ata, 'a e tonu pasika 'a e ngaahi me'a 'oku nau talanoa ki ai 'o fekau'aki mo sisu 'i he fuakava motu'a? or did they wrote it and the spirit will show us what it means? hahahheheh! don't forget to play your role as theologian! hahahheheh!!!!
 
kataki pe loto, ka 'oku hange kiate au 'oku kamata pe ke tau nga'unu atu ki he me'a 'oku tokanga mai ki ai 'a fkpulia.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 4:16 AM
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?]

Ko e taimi eni 'oku ou lau ai 'oku TU'ULOTOLOTO E ROLE 'a e interpreter pea totally dependent (mahalo na'a ko ha maumau fkefklea eni) 'ia LM 'o 'IKAI fknofonofo ke ma'u FKHA ka ke fai hono fatongia 'o 'OUA 'E FALALA kiate ia pe ka ki he TOKONI 'A LM, pea ke NE FAITOTONU 'o TALA 'A E MO'ONI ki he kakai. Kae'oua 'e MIMIO e FKMATALA mo e FK'UHINGA ke DEFEND ha fanga ki'i mokimoki'i fepakipaki pehe na he tohitapu, koe'uhi, he 'OKU 'IKAI FKFALALA e mo'oni ia 'o e 'OTUA he tonu mo e fehalaaki fkliliu pe hikitohi 'o e tohitapu.
 
2. Ko e taha foki 'e fkpulia ko e FKMANAVA'I 'oe tohitapu, 'oku ou TUI NE fkmanava pe e kau hikitohi 'e he LM, ka 'OKU 'IKAI 'UHINGA IA KIA AU 'oku mamanava ai pe 'a e written documents he 'ene MAVAHE mei he ME'AMO'UI ka ko e tangata/fefine- fa'utohi pea pehe ki he readers (fktauhoa pe ki he hoo e manava mo'ui ki he tangata -Sen. 2:7). HANGEE pe ko e FENGAUE'AKI 'a LM mo e FA'UTOHI, pea 'e pehee pe 'a e PAU KE FENGAUE'AKI 'A LM mo e TAHA TE NE toki ALASI e tohi ke LAU. 
 
(Fehu'i ke tokanga'i: 'OKU 'UHINGA E FKLEA "FKMANAVA'I" 'o e tohitapu ki he HAA? 1) 'oku 'uhinga nai eni 'oku 'AFIO 'A LM he tohitapu? 2). 'oku 'uhinga nia ia ki ha levolo 'e taha 'o e maa'imoa 'a LM, ka 'oku 'ikai ko ha 'AFIO he tohi? 3). pe 'oku sio ia ki ha me'a 'e taha?) 4). ko e haa ha felave'i 'a e FKMANAVA'I mo e 'AFIO-TU'UMA'U 'a LM 'i hotau lotolotonga?
 
Ka ko e fkkaukau 'o e FKMANAVA'I ia 'oku ne hanga 'e ia 'o FALUTE KATOA e ngaahi tohi ko eni kuo fktaha'i 'o hoko ko e TOHI PE 'E TAHA. 'Aia ko e HANGA 'e he SIASI 'o TALI 'i he tu'unga mo e fkkaukau ko e KATOA (fklukufua) e tohi ko e MANAVA MAI (breathe-out by God) 'a e 'Otua, 'o makatu'unga he ngaahi taukave (claim) kuo fai 'e he kau fa'utohi 'o tatau pe he FM mo e FF. 'Oku 'ikai 'uhinga ia heni KUO INFALLIBLE e tohitapu ia pe MAFAI TATAU ai mo e 'Otua.
 
"'Oku mou HAKULE 'a e tohitapu koe'uhi 'oku MOU mahalo 'oku TU'U ai e MO'UITA'ENGATA: pea ko ia ia 'oku FKMO'ONI kiate au"(SIONE 5:39).
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sfaupula

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Apr 17, 2009, 9:22:17 PM4/17/09
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ko fe nai e konga masi'i tk2 'oku 'ikai ke mahino kiate koe 'oku 'ikai ke hanga 'e he fkkaukau 'o e tu'unga (status, position) 'o sisu 'ia sione 'o faikehekehe'i 'a sisu mei he tohitapu?
 
when john cliamed that jesus is the creating word of god in the beginning, it's very very difficult for us to say that john was introducing his gospel with the idea that jesus is different from scripture.
 
kataki pe loto ka 'oku 'ikai ke toe fu'u tali ia he ngaahi 'aho ni ke pehe na'e nofo e fkkaukau 'a sione 'i he ngaahi filosofia fkkalisi 'i he'ene lave ki he Word. 'oku ngali ange pea hoa ange 'a e fkkaukau 'a sne ki he Word pea mo e word 'a e 'otua 'i he fuakava motu'a. having said that the greek idea of logos did not exist when genesis and the ot was written. ko ia ai, 'oku 'ikai ke tau fkkaukau tatau ki he Word ke pehe ko e reason 'o hange ko ho'o fkkaukau mo e kau kalisi.
 
kataki pe lotopoha (semisi kava & abdul & topak???) ka 'oku 'ikai ha 'uhinga 'e taha 'i he ngaahi me'a koeni 'oku ke short hand mai 'o talamai ai ne hanga 'e sne 'o fkfaikehekehe'i 'a sisu mei he folofola. yes, scripture gives witness to jesus, - don't forget to answer my questions about this 'i he tepile ko ee e - but that does not mean that jesus is saying scripture is not the word of god. does it?
 
ko e fepaki koeni 'a sisu mo e kau falesi 'oku mahino that jesus justified what he did on the sunday by alluding to and interpreting ot texts which speaks of god and applied them to him. the whole idea of making this comparision by jesus  was to make him equal to god, so that he could to justify his action. it was not to differentiates himself form scripture as lotopoha (semisi kava & abdul & topak???) would have us believe. the idea of jesus vs scripture in this texts does not exist unless we twist it like some people do.
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 1:25 AM
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?]

'oku pehe 'e loto ko sne 1:1 - sisu ko 'otua - 'oku ha mahino mai ai 'a e 'ikai ke tu'unga tatau 'a sisu moe tohitapu. but, hang on! did john wanted to make such a point that jesus is different from scripture in this opening verse of his book? i strongly refute such a claim, because john made no such qualification in this opening verse: nor did john wish to make a contrast between jesus and scripture in this.
 
ko e kamata'anga 'o e tohi koeni 'a sne 'oku ongona mai ai 'a e 'uluaki fklea 'o e tohi senesi - 'i he kamata'anga. here john is making a link between jesus and the Word which created the universe. so, rather than trying to distinguish between scripture and jesus, as loto would have us believe, john made a connection between the Word that created the world and Jesus. 'ikai ko ia pe ka 'oku fktau 'e sne 'ene kosipeli ki he fuakava motu'a 'aki 'a e canonical link between the first words of the ot pea moe 'uluaki fklea 'o 'ene folofola.
 
yes, john is making the claim that jesus is life, but that does not mean he is contrasting and comparing jesus with scripture. kapau te tau fktokanga'i 'a e fanga ki'i nuances 'o e fkmatala 'a sne, 'oku vaofi ange 'a e folofola (in speech form) pea mo sisu, he ko e fo'i folofola (words) 'a sisu 'oku 'ia 'a e mafai ke fktupu. god did not fashioned the universe with his hands (metaphically speaking) ka na'a ne fktupu 'aki 'a 'ene folofola (word - lea).
 
ko e fkkaukau ia 'oku muimui ki ai e fm 'i he taimi ko ee 'oku nau pehe ai ko e folofola 'a e 'otua 'oku 'i ai hono mafai: he speaks and things come into being (ftt. gen 1:3, 9, 11, 15, ...

 

malo sfaupula e fktalanoa pea 'OUA 'E TUKU HA IVI, kae 'oho ai leva na'a toe KAILA MAI E KI'I HEA eeeh!!! (Lev.16:11, Teut.14:7) tuku ke nau kaungafononga atu ai pe mo (1Tu'i 7:23) kae'oua leva ke tuku mai e kau tama ko ee mei he ngaue.
 
kaikehe, ko e tatau mo e haa 'eku fiefia 'i ho'omo lavelave mai ketau ifoifo masi'i sfaupula, kae TAPU PE LOI mo e MIMIO mo e 'Itaaa ee!!!! Tau lavelave lelei atu pe, he 'oku fklata.
 
'oku ke mo'oni he fktalanoa ki he Kosipeli hiki 'e Sione (1:1-18), 'a 'ene hanga 'o identify 'a Sisu ko e LOKOSI (logos - WORD or Reason), 'aia ne 'i mu'a noa pe fktaha mo e 'Otua, pea 'IATE IA ne fou ai hono FKTUPU 'e he 'Otua e mamani (connect leva ia ai ki he SENESI). Pea KEI 'I LOTO PE he 1:1-18, kuo fokotu'u mai ai 'e Sione na'e HOKOMAI e LOKOSI 'o 'AIKAKANO 'aia ko SISU IA (1:14).
 
"PEA NA'E HOKO 'A FOLOFOLA KO E KAKANO..."
 
Ko e 'OTUA IA ne HOKOMAI IA 'o tangata.(Pea 'oku tokolahi e kau scholar kuo nau hanga 'o takitaha fa'u 'enau ngaahi fkmatala puipuitu'a 'o lau ko e ngaahi source ki he fo'i fkkaukau 'a Sione ki he LOKOSI).
 
'Oku ma'u nai hena e me'a neu lave atu ki ai 'a e kau e Kosipeli 'a Sione he Malohi ki he talanoa TU'UNGA (1:1)?
 
"I he kamata'anga KUO 'IAI 'a FOLOFOLA, pea na'e feangai mo e 'Otua 'a FOLOFOLA, pea na'e 'OTUA 'A FOLOFOLA".
 
Sfaupula, hikitaa pe 'ae fa'utohi 'o fkmatala e KONGA 'o e me'a ne ke lave ki ai pea MO E FKKAUKAU NEU fktalanoa atu ai. 
 
KO E VAHE 5 'O SIONE - Ko e TOE 'I SELUSALEMA ENI 'A SISU
5:1-18 ko e Vaalau ia tupu mei he Fkmo'ui mahaki he SAPATE (ne ke ki'i male mai ki ai)
5:19-47 Ko e veesi18, 'oku 'asi ai ne LOOUA e me'a ne mamahi ai kainga ni 'ia Sisu (Maumau Sapate mo e Fktatau ia mo e 'Otua). KEI MA'U AI PE HENI E ME'A NEU LAU KI AI masi'i sfaupula ee, 'a e TU'UNGA.
Neongo e lau 'a Sisu he v.18, ka na'e 'ikai 'uhinga ia kuo ne hanga 'e ia ia 'o HIKI IA KE MAVAHE mei he TAMAI 'o tu'u tokotaha pe (v.19).
 
Ko e toenga leva e vahe 5, 'oku HOKO ATU AI PE 'a e hanga 'e Sisu 'o CLAIM ia ki he ngaahi me'a ko eni:
1). 'ilo'i e palani 'a e 'Otua (v.20)
2). Ko me'a kotoa pe kuo ne fai ko e authorize ia mei he 'Otua (v.19,30).
3). 'oku ne ma'u e mafai ke foaki e mo'uita'engata (v.21,24,40).
4). 'oku ne toe mafai foki ke FKMAAU 'a e kau mo'ui mo e pekia fktou'osi (v.25-29).
 
Ko e haa leva 'a e ngaahi FKMO'ONI(testimony) KIATE IA ki he ngaahi CLAIM ko eni kuo ne fai 'i 'olunga?
  • ko e le'o he 'aho papitaiso (v.37)
  • ko e ngaahi fkmo'oni ne fai 'e Sione Papitaiso (v.33-35).
  • ko e ngaahi evidences 'o 'ene ngaahi mana ne fkhoko (v.36).
  • ko e ngaahi fkmatala 'o e FM (v.39).
Sfaupula, 'oku ou tui pe 'e MAHINO LELEIANGE 'ena ki he'eku FOKOTU'U ne lave atu ki ai, 'a e MALOHI 'a e Kosipeli 'a Sione ki he TALANOA TU'UNGA pea pehee foki ki he'eku TAUKAVE'I 'A E HANGA 'E SISU 'o FKFAIKEHEKEHE'I IA mei he TOHITAPU - ko e tohi fkmo'oni (testimony) kiate IA pea 'IKAI ke na MAFAI TATAU. sai pe 'oku kei mohe pe e ki'i HEA fk-kina. (kuo te'eki pe ma'u mai ha fktotolo ha kau saienisi mo ha kau palofesa ki he ki'i HEA?)
 
 
'Oku ou kei manatu'i pe neu 'OSI LAVE ATU kimu'a he'eta talanoa 'uluaki, ko e tohitapu ia kia au 'oku HANGEE IA HA KI'I PAPA FKHINOHINO HALA ki ha feitu'u telia na'a 'alu taha 'o HEEEEEE!!!!
 
Kapau te mou kalofi e hikitohi ko ena 'a Sione, te mo'u HINGAKI e fu'u'akau kia Sisu, pea kapau te mou kalofi e folofola ne too mei he fofonga 'o Sisu fktatau kia Sione, pea 'e te mou HINGAKI e fu'u 'akau kia Sione.
 
Ko e taha foki, kapau te ke fiema'u 'a e ngaahi texts 'ia Sione (kosipeli) ki he words (lea), 'oku fokotu'uniu kinautolu ia heni. Koe'uhi he 'oku ifo e talatalanoa 'i loto he tohitapu ee! 'aongaange ia.
 
FEHU'I pe ena ke FKKAUKAU ki ai: Folofola 'oku 2 (FOLOFOLA -personae pea mo Folofola tohi). Folofola (tokotaha sione 1:1) ko e TOKOTAHA MO'UI ko ia (pre-existent being) na'e LAUMALIE MO'UI ('Otua ko e LAUMALIE) pe kimu'a pea toki ha'u 'o 'AIKAKANO? Ne LAUMALIE KEHE IA meia LM?
 
'ofa atu mo e lotu
lotopoha.

sfaupula

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Apr 17, 2009, 9:39:08 PM4/17/09
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hahahahehehehhahahehehaahehehahahehehwhAHWHEH!!
 
tali ki ho'o ngaahi fehu'i
 
1. yes
 
2. yes/no
 
3. no/no/no/yes/yes
 
we are spiritual beings! - aren't we starting to sound a bit like preschoolers! hahahahaheheheh!!
 
malo pe fktalanoa mai (lotopoha & misi & topak & abdul) ka mou kataki a 'o tali mai a 'etau ngaahi fifili koeni ne 'oatu. pe te mou toe kalofi pe mo eni 'o hange ko e ngaahi kakalo atu ko ee kimu'a. 'oku 'ikai ke mau toe lave atu ki he ki'i hea he 'oku ua e monumanu 'oku 'asi he potu tohi. ko e kameli mo e hea. which of these two was the author talking about? pea ke kataki 'o me'a hake ki he apologeticpress.org 'o laulau ai he 'oku tali katoa pe ai ho'o mou ngaahi fehu'i ki he apparent mistakes, contradictions, etc, etc...
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 2:12 AM
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?]

'oku ke talamai 'oku 'ikai ke fkfalala 'a e mo'oni ia 'a e 'otua "he tonu mo e fehalaaki fkliliu pe hikitohi 'o e tohitapu."
 
kapau 'oku ke tui ko e 'otua 'oku 'ikai ke loi, is it not the obligation of those who give their witness about god to be truthful and not make misleading mistakes in their witness about god? kapau 'oku fehalaaki e witness about god, why would god allow such thing especially when this would lead to a misunderstanding of who he is? is it not god's oligation to his creatures to give them evry opportunity to know about him in a truthful and non misleading manner? if you think it does not matter weather the records about god be right, then you need to think again. the implication here will be that we have a god who does not care about wrong infos about him and his truth. maybe that's your kind of god, ka kimautolu koeni 'atamai vaivai, 'oku pau ke tatau e 'otua ia pea moe me'a 'oku ne fkha ia ki he tangata. this is an outright rejection of the moral implication of a god that is holy, righteous, lea mo'oni, etc.
 
loto, do i detect a full hearted validation of my argument when you say, "HANGEE pe ko e FENGAUE'AKI 'a LM mo e FA'UTOHI, pea 'e pehee pe 'a e PAU KE FENGAUE'AKI 'A LM mo e TAHA TE NE toki ALASI e tohi ke LAU. 'e mahu'inga ki he kau lautohi 'i faleni 'oka pau te ke ki'i vetevete mai ange ho'o 'uhinga koeni.
 
sfaupula malo mu'a e kei talatalanoa mai pea ko e me'a ena 'oku ou lave'i 'oku taau ke fai ai ha lavelave. pea mahalo na'a 'unu atu ai e talanoa ki ha tu'unga 'e taha.
 
kaikehe, sfaupula, te'eki keu lave atu ki he me'a kuo ke 'eke, tuku ke u tomu'a fehu'i atu.
1). Na'e 'afio'i na'i 'e he 'Otua kimu'a 'e Talangata'a e 'uluaki tangata kiate Ia te'eki ke ne ngaohi?
2). 'E fe'unga nai ha ME'A KUO HIKITOHI 'E HE TANGATA MO E FEFINE ke hoko ko e ME'AFUA KI HA 'OTUA 'oku LAHI IA he me'atohi mo e mamani 'oku tau 'iai ni? 
3). Kapau ko Mosese na'a ne hiki e Nima'i Puka, ne toki hiki ia kimui 'aupito kuo loakaliu e hoko 'a e mamani ia ko e mamani fonu he angahala (loi, mistakes, mistyping, misleading etc. - BROKEN WORLD). Pea na'a mo Mosese ena ne tamate pe ia mo Talangata'a kia Sihova.
'E 'ata'ataa nai e communicate 'ae 'Otua mo e tangata mei hano impact 'e he Too 'a e 'Uluaki matu'a 'aia eni kuo tau kei afuhia mai ai pe, neongo KUO 'OSI PEKIA 'A SISU IA MOE TOETU'U PEA HA'ELE HAKE?
 
Ko Paula ena, neongo ko e helo ia he ngaue fkfaifekau, ka na'e kei 'iai pe mo 'ene ngaahi vaivai'anga.
 
KONGA HOKO:
Fengaue'aki - 'oku ou tui sfaupula ko kitautolu fa'ahinga 'o e tangata koe kau spiritual beings.
 
'ofa atu mo e lotu
lotopoha

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 8:10 AM, sfaupula <sk...@bigpond.com> wrote:
malie mo'oni ko e fkkaukau ia koeni loto. how about we give your theory a test case senarion.
 


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penisimani mone

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Apr 17, 2009, 11:39:48 PM4/17/09
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Lotopoha:
Sfaupula, 'oku ou tui pe 'e MAHINO LELEIANGE 'ena ki he'eku FOKOTU'U ne lave atu ki ai, 'a e MALOHI 'a e Kosipeli 'a Sione ki he TALANOA TU'UNGA pea pehee foki ki he'eku TAUKAVE'I 'A E HANGA 'E SISU 'o FKFAIKEHEKEHE'I IA mei he TOHITAPU - ko e tohi fkmo'oni (testimony) kiate IA pea 'IKAI ke na MAFAI TATAU. sai pe 'oku kei mohe pe e ki'i HEA fk-kina. (kuo te'eki pe ma'u mai ha fktotolo ha kau saienisi mo ha kau palofesa ki he ki'i HEA?)
-----------
Mahalo pe ongo tangata kuo taimi ke ki'i lele atu e tisii ee, koloaa ho'omo ki'i too mai ki hoku paengaa na'a mo toe hola mo ua ki homo falee ee. Mo inuinu pe kau ngaahi ange e saliotee ko enii ke fai mo sai.
 
In Properties:
Ko ha taukave ke ne identify tokua 'oku property tatau matematee 'a e Folofola 'Aloo mo e Folofola Tohii as one and same, 'oku hala ia, kiate au pe ia, pea 'oku ke mo'oni 'aupito ai Lotopoha, but as I have said, everybody knows that, so what? It is a question of form pea tuku atu pe ia ke mo fetakai ai.
 
In Witnessing:
Both Church and Scriptures are not God themselves, but they witness to a Triune God. Mo'oni 'aupito koe, Abdul, kiate au pe ia. Happy? But as I have said, we at the lalo takapau all know that, so what is the issue?
 
In Authority:
Ko ha taukave ke ne draw mei ai tokua 'oku 'ikai ke mafai tatau 'a e Folofola 'Aloo mo e Folofola Tohii, 'oku hala ia, kiate au pe ia, pea hangee nai 'oku ke ki'i offtrack ai Abdul. This is a question of essence and every christian must respond to it for its denial threatens their message of salvation and obetiance to the message. Hangee ko enii, ko 'etau lau 'a e:

Matthew 5:43-45 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. (KJV)

'Osi 'ilo lelei pe 'e au ko e folofola eni 'a Sisu he ta'u 'e 2000 kuo hilii, 'osi 'ilo lelei pe 'e au ko e folofola eni ki he kakai kehe, 'osi 'ilo lelei pe 'e au ko 'eku lau eni e folofola mei ha fallible form of written documents, ka koe'uhi 'oku na same authority 'a e folofola 'Alo 'oku folofola aii mo 'ene folofola Tohii, ko ia ai kuo pau keu talangofua ki ai 'o love my enemies, bless them that curse me, etc. Same Authority in essence is a matter of obetience, and not a matter of forms and properties, my friends.

He kapau 'oku 'ikai mafai tatau 'a e Folofola 'Aloo mo e Folofola Tohii, 'o si'isi'i ange ha mafai mai kiate au 'a e Folofola Tohii koe'uhi pe ko 'ene fallible, pea 'e kamata leva keu talangofua si'isi'i pe ki ai 'o love my enemies kae not bless them that curse me, etc koe'uhi pe 'oku fallible ia. 'E haa? teu talangofua si'isi'i aipe ki he Folofola Tohii ke toki folofola infallible mai 'a e 'Otuaa 'i ha 'aho ke match mo 'ene infallible God kau toki talangofua kakato ki ai? Maaannn!! Does God will to reveal and communicate in whatever form God wills?

In Revelation:

God reveals and communicates, 'ikai ko ia? pea 'oku tau tui kotoa ki ai, he kapau 'e 'ikai pea 'e feefee ai ha'atau ofi atu, ta'e'aonga ange fau, ta'e'aonga ange fau!! Kapau ko ia, pea kuo pau leva ke ne reveal mo communicate ia in whatever form 'oku ne finangalo ki ai, pea 'i he Folofola 'Aloo ko e 'ai fallible kakano ko ia 'oku tau fetakai ai 'i he kosipeli 'a Sionee, pea 'i he'ene folofola leaa leva eni 'i he fallible tohi tapuu. All form are fallible (liable to err) yet God wills to reveal and communicate in form, in fallible written documents. In revelation, both fallible author and author's fallible Scriptures must have inspiration for they both involve in divine revelations and communication.

He kapau te tau ta'ofi ke 'oua 'e fakahaa'i mai 'e he 'Otuaa ia 'i he Scripture he 'oku fallible hono form, 'asinga ai 'etau fie pule atu ki he 'Otuaa, pea 'e feefee ai ha'atau 'ilo ki he taumama'o atu, ta'e-mahakule-a. As we all know, fallible form (physical book, ink, verse, etc) is only a side of the coin but a necessary side, for without it there is no divine revelation and communication. Pea ko hono fa'a fahiua 'o e one coin ke kehe fallible form mei hono kosipelii 'oku te fakatou abuse looua ai kinaua 'i he taimi tatau pee, he na'e revelation ia mo communication ke na fefakakoloa'aki 'o 'ikai te na fesiitu'a'aki.

In Translation:

Na'e mu'aki hikitohi 'a e original divine revelation/communication 'e ha kau fallible but authors 'i ha fallible language 'e taha (Gk or Heb). Ka koe'uhi ko 'ena deal mo e divine revelation/communication pea na fakatou inspired looua ai, 'ikai malava 'e he'ena fallibilities 'o ta'ofi 'ena inspirations koe'uhi 'oku ma'olunga ange 'a hona side divine revalation 'i hona side fallibilies.

Ka ko e Scriptures foki ko e koloa ia 'a e community of faith, 'a ia 'oku kau ai 'a e kakai ia 'o e ngaahi lea kehekehe, 'o pau ai ke translate ma'a nautolu foki.Ka 'okapau 'e toe translate, na'a toe more fallible ai e original manuscripts? Sai pe ia, translate, he 'e lahi ange pee lelei 'o hono eternal messages 'i hono fallible languagess, 'o nau toe inspiration atu aipe koe'uhi ko 'enau deal mo e original divine revelations. Original revelation does not necessarilly loose its inspiration/revelation through the process of translation, but the book looses for sure its divine revelation/communication when it is not translated to the language of the faithful readers.

In Hare:

Na'a ku 'oatu 'a e ki'i dictionary entry ko iaa ke 'eke 'aki kiate koe Abdul pe ko hai 'e pule ki hono meaning 'o e fo'i "hare". He kapau 'e pule 'a e kau modernists/readers pea 'ikai ha'anau 'ilo ki ha hare pehee 'e kai fakahake pe mavaeua e topuva'e pe whatever pea te nau kaila leva - MISTAKES! CONTRA!!  kae sisina 'a e author 'o hangee ko ho'o 'aii Abdul. Pea kapau 'e pule 'a e original author ki he 'uhinga 'o 'ene fo'i heaa, pea 'ikai 'ilo ki ha hare pehee 'e he readers, 'e fakatulou leva 'a e faithful readers mo fai 'a e lau 'a e entry - "..kataki pe author 'oku 'ikai teu 'ilo ki ho'o fo'i heaa he taimi ni, ka teu translate pehe ni pee mo talitali ai na'a ku toki 'ilo ki ai 'amui." 'Oku 'ikai ko ha palopalema ia 'a e author, translated text, ka 'a e readers hangee ko tautoluu ee. After all, Scriptures is about a God, and not about a hare, kae sai pe he 'oku tau kei lele pe tautolu he fallible form ee.

...mo ki'i inuninu atu kau tu'u 'o fakama'u ai leva ee va'e saliotee...

--
fakapulia

sfaupula

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Apr 18, 2009, 2:46:05 AM4/18/09
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ke tau heka saliote faifekau 'oku tau lolotonga totolo-luelue- totolo! hahaheheheahahahweh!
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 1:39 PM
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?]


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sfaupula

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Apr 18, 2009, 6:30:13 AM4/18/09
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malo ia abdul lotopoha pea 'oku 'ikai ha me'a 'e tala'a he 'oku ongo pehe pe 'a e me'a ko e talanoa ha ongo tafa'aki 'oku 'ikai ke na agree. that's the nature of
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 6:56 PM
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?]

malo e fktalanoa ko ia sfaupula pea 'oku 'ikai ha maumau ia ai. kehe ke fai pe he loto lelei hange ko e FK'AMU 'a Sione Uesilee ee! ko e hau he fkmafana.
 
Pea KAPAU 'OKU MATA'AA'AA pehe ho'o MIMIO ha fkamatala 'a ha taha he FALE NI, pea taa 'E 'IKAI HALA KEU PEHEE , 'OKU mou MIMIO PEHEE'I FOKI e tohitapu ki ha'amou tauakave 'oku fai.
 
'Oku 'IKAI ko 'eku tokanga 'aku KE KE TALI pe ta'etali 'eku ngaahi fkkaukau, KA KO 'EKU TOKANGA KE MAHINO 'EKU FKKAUKAU 'oku fokotu'u he fale ni
 koe tali atu ai pe ia ho'o ngaahi FFIFILI ko ena ne ke 'OMAI.
 
Tuku keu hoko atu au.
 
Ko e TOHITAPU, 'oku 'IKAI MAFAI TATAU mo e 'OTUA 'oku talanoa ki ai, ka 'oku ne fatongia hangee ko e Papa Fkhinohino he HALAPULE'ANGA. Koe'uhi he 'oku 'iai e ngaahi taumu'a mo e 'uhinga 'oku FK'AMU 'a e tohitapu ke ma'u 'e ha TAHA te ne lau.
 
Poupou atu ai pe eni ki he ngaahi potutohi ko ena ne 'osi 'oatu (Sione 5:39). Ko e taumu'a foki ia e Kosipeli 'a Sione ko e feinga ke TUI e KAKAI kia Sisu Kalaisi, ko e 'Alo ia 'o e 'Otua. Pea 'i he TUI kiate Ia, 'e MA'U AI E MO'UI (Sione 20:30-31) Pea ko e vahe 5:46, 'oku haa mahino ai 'a e feinga 'a Sisu ke fkmahino koe TOHI (FM -NIMA'I PUKA) 'a e tokotaha ko ia, ko e tohi kia AU. 'Oku lea foki 'a Luke ki he me'a tatau (24:27), 'aia 'oku haa ai ne hanga 'e Sisu 'o fkmahino ko e tohi 'a Moses mo e kau Palofita ko e tuhu iate Ia. Hange tofu peni ko e tokanga 'a Pita he tohi (Ngaue 10:43),"'Oku fkmatala 'a e kau palofita kotoa pe ki he tokotaha ko ia..."
 
Hangee kiate au ko e FKMANAVA'I 'o e tohitapu 'oku KAUNGATONU mo hono fatongia ko eni?
 
Neongo 'ene ho'ataa malie mai heni e fatongia 'o e tohitapu ko e TUHU kia FOLOFOLA MO'UI, ka 'oku MAHINO LELEI ai pe 'a e TU'UNGA 'o ha TAHA mei hono FATONGIA. Pea ta 'oku 'IKAI MAFAI TATAU pe TU'UNGA TATAU e 'OTUA ia mo e tohitapu. Koe'uhi ko ia, pea ta 'oku taau ke fai ha tokanga ki he FKKAUKAU 'o e FKMANAVA'I.
 
'Eii, KO E ki'i HEA (lev.16:11, teut.14:7) ee 'oku si'i 'aa mai!! 'Oku Fk'ofa, 'ene siosio atu, ko e TALI KI HE KAU SAIENISI MO E KAU PALOFESA. kuo nau mei a'u mai? kole ange ki he KAU saienisi mo e kau Palofesa ke nau to'o atu pe mo e ki'i text ko ena (1tu'i 7:23) 'o fktonutonu'i mai mo ia he 'oku FK'OFA E KAU NGAUE LANGA he kuo ha'u e MOMOKO. lahi e mate he niumonia ee!

ma'u pe ha weekend lelei ee!
'ofa atu mo e lotu,
lotopoha.
 
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sfaupula

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Apr 18, 2009, 6:40:32 AM4/18/09
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malo pe ena ia abdul lotopoha pea te tau loloa tau tolu ai. teu toe fokotu'u atu 'etau samena ke ke ki'i 'ahi'ahi tekolo'i pe. ko 'ene lava pe ia pea tau toki hoko atu
 
here goes:
 
ko e ki'i fifili pe eni ia loto. kapau ko e folofola ko e witness pe ia 'a e tangata (as you clearly claim there is no involvement by god in their writing of the texts), na'e angafefe 'a hono hiki e taniela, 'aisea, etc 'a e ngaahi me'a na'e te'eki ke hoko ia 'i honau taimi?
 
'ikai ke ngata ai, how could jesus say that the ot witness about him, when the people who wrote the ot were merely men? did they possess some sort of special power, to write about a person and events that would come into the world and do the things he did precisely the way it did?
 
HOW WOULD YOU EXPLAIN THESE QUESTIONS TO PEOPLE (and tell them the truth) WHEN YOU CLAIM KO E TOHITAPU KO E FKMO'ONI (MAN MADE WITNESS) PE IA KI HE 'OTUA, HE NA'E HIKI PE IA 'E HE KAKAI TA'E KAU AI E 'OTUA?
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 6:56 PM
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?]

malo e fktalanoa ko ia sfaupula pea 'oku 'ikai ha maumau ia ai. kehe ke fai pe he loto lelei hange ko e FK'AMU 'a Sione Uesilee ee! ko e hau he fkmafana.
 
Pea KAPAU 'OKU MATA'AA'AA pehe ho'o MIMIO ha fkamatala 'a ha taha he FALE NI, pea taa 'E 'IKAI HALA KEU PEHEE , 'OKU mou MIMIO PEHEE'I FOKI e tohitapu ki ha'amou tauakave 'oku fai.
 
'Oku 'IKAI ko 'eku tokanga 'aku KE KE TALI pe ta'etali 'eku ngaahi fkkaukau, KA KO 'EKU TOKANGA KE MAHINO 'EKU FKKAUKAU 'oku fokotu'u he fale ni
 koe tali atu ai pe ia ho'o ngaahi FFIFILI ko ena ne ke 'OMAI.
 
Tuku keu hoko atu au.
 
Ko e TOHITAPU, 'oku 'IKAI MAFAI TATAU mo e 'OTUA 'oku talanoa ki ai, ka 'oku ne fatongia hangee ko e Papa Fkhinohino he HALAPULE'ANGA. Koe'uhi he 'oku 'iai e ngaahi taumu'a mo e 'uhinga 'oku FK'AMU 'a e tohitapu ke ma'u 'e ha TAHA te ne lau.
 
Poupou atu ai pe eni ki he ngaahi potutohi ko ena ne 'osi 'oatu (Sione 5:39). Ko e taumu'a foki ia e Kosipeli 'a Sione ko e feinga ke TUI e KAKAI kia Sisu Kalaisi, ko e 'Alo ia 'o e 'Otua. Pea 'i he TUI kiate Ia, 'e MA'U AI E MO'UI (Sione 20:30-31) Pea ko e vahe 5:46, 'oku haa mahino ai 'a e feinga 'a Sisu ke fkmahino koe TOHI (FM -NIMA'I PUKA) 'a e tokotaha ko ia, ko e tohi kia AU. 'Oku lea foki 'a Luke ki he me'a tatau (24:27), 'aia 'oku haa ai ne hanga 'e Sisu 'o fkmahino ko e tohi 'a Moses mo e kau Palofita ko e tuhu iate Ia. Hange tofu peni ko e tokanga 'a Pita he tohi (Ngaue 10:43),"'Oku fkmatala 'a e kau palofita kotoa pe ki he tokotaha ko ia..."
 
Hangee kiate au ko e FKMANAVA'I 'o e tohitapu 'oku KAUNGATONU mo hono fatongia ko eni?
 
Neongo 'ene ho'ataa malie mai heni e fatongia 'o e tohitapu ko e TUHU kia FOLOFOLA MO'UI, ka 'oku MAHINO LELEI ai pe 'a e TU'UNGA 'o ha TAHA mei hono FATONGIA. Pea ta 'oku 'IKAI MAFAI TATAU pe TU'UNGA TATAU e 'OTUA ia mo e tohitapu. Koe'uhi ko ia, pea ta 'oku taau ke fai ha tokanga ki he FKKAUKAU 'o e FKMANAVA'I.
 
'Eii, KO E ki'i HEA (lev.16:11, teut.14:7) ee 'oku si'i 'aa mai!! 'Oku Fk'ofa, 'ene siosio atu, ko e TALI KI HE KAU SAIENISI MO E KAU PALOFESA. kuo nau mei a'u mai? kole ange ki he KAU saienisi mo e kau Palofesa ke nau to'o atu pe mo e ki'i text ko ena (1tu'i 7:23) 'o fktonutonu'i mai mo ia he 'oku FK'OFA E KAU NGAUE LANGA he kuo ha'u e MOMOKO. lahi e mate he niumonia ee!

ma'u pe ha weekend lelei ee!
'ofa atu mo e lotu,
lotopoha.

sfaupula

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Apr 18, 2009, 6:54:01 AM4/18/09
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teu ki'i helekusi leka pe heni ongo tama just to say that non of these texts that abdul lotopoha has referred to were written for the purpose of proving that scriptures is not the very word of god. full stop!!! ko e imagination pe eni ia e kau readers 'oku nau pehe ko e ngaahi proff texts koeni na'e taumu'a ai 'a sisu mo e kau authors ke fkmahino'i e me'a 'oku nau tui ki ai.
 
clearly this is a distorting of the texts and full blown generalization.
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 8:33 PM
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?]

In Authority:
Ko ha taukave ke ne draw mei ai tokua 'oku 'ikai ke mafai tatau 'a e Folofola 'Aloo mo e Folofola Tohii, 'oku hala ia, kiate au pe ia, pea hangee nai 'oku ke ki'i offtrack ai Abdul. This is a question of essence and every christian must respond to it for its denial threatens their message of salvation and obetiance to the message. Hangee ko enii, ko 'etau lau 'a e:

Matthew 5:43-45 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. (KJV)

'Osi 'ilo lelei pe 'e au ko e folofola eni 'a Sisu he ta'u 'e 2000 kuo hilii, 'osi 'ilo lelei pe 'e au ko e folofola eni ki he kakai kehe, 'osi 'ilo lelei pe 'e au ko 'eku lau eni e folofola mei ha fallible form of written documents, ka koe'uhi 'oku na same authority 'a e folofola 'Alo 'oku folofola aii mo 'ene folofola Tohii, ko ia ai kuo pau keu talangofua ki ai 'o love my enemies, bless them that curse me, etc. Same Authority in essence is a matter of obetience, and not a matter of forms and properties, my friends.

He kapau 'oku 'ikai mafai tatau 'a e Folofola 'Aloo mo e Folofola Tohii, 'o si'isi'i ange ha mafai mai kiate au 'a e Folofola Tohii koe'uhi pe ko 'ene fallible, pea 'e kamata leva keu talangofua si'isi'i pe ki ai 'o love my enemies kae not bless them that curse me, etc koe'uhi pe 'oku fallible ia. 'E haa? teu talangofua si'isi'i aipe ki he Folofola Tohii ke toki folofola infallible mai 'a e 'Otuaa 'i ha 'aho ke match mo 'ene infallible God kau toki talangofua kakato ki ai? Maaannn!! Does God will to reveal and communicate in whatever form God wills?

Ko e konga eni 'e TAHA 'oku ou FIHI ai faifekau. 'Oku 'IKAI mafai tatau e 'OTUA mo e tohitapu. 'Oku mahino kia au faifekau ho'o fkmatala, pea ko e ngaahi texts kotoa kuo ngaue mai 'aki e sfaupula 'oku ou tui te ke toe afe hake ki ai. Ka ko eni 'oku ou tu'ukaivi au he SAY NO ki he me'a ko ia ko e MAFAI TATAU 'A E 'OTUA MO E TOHITAPU.

Ko e texts (mtt5:43-45), 'oku kehe ia meia (sione 5:39,46). Ko e tama koee ne lea 'ia mtt 5:43-45, ko ia pe eni ne lea 'ia sione 5:39,63.

"'oku mou hakule tohitapu koe'uhi ko ho'omou mahalo 'oku tu'u ai HO'OMOU MA'U 'A E MO'UITA'ENGATA; pea ko ia ia 'oku FKMO'ONI KIATE AU."

Luke 24:27; Sione 20:30-31

Pea ne kamata mei he ngaahi tohi 'a Mosese mo e kau Palofita kotoa pe, 'o ne fk'uhinga mei he tohitapu katoa 'a e ngaahi me'a na'e kau kiate ia.

KA KUO TOHI ENI KOE'UHI ke mou TUI ko Sisu ko e MISAIA ia...

 Ko e kosipeli 'a Sione hangee ko ia neu lave ki ai kia sfaupula, ko e KOSIPELI IA 'O E TALANOA TU'UNGA pea mo toe TALANOA mahino ki he FATONGIA 'o e tohitapu kia SISU. Ko ia ai, 'oku lava ai pe ke mahino 'a e TU'UNGA moe MAFAI he fatongia. Pea 'oku ne(sione) lau e ngaahi tittle kotoa (fanautama 'a tangata, etc.) kia Sisu 'o 'ikai 'uhinga ia ki hono human being ka ki hono konga 'OTUA.

Ko e taha foki fkpulia, 'oku 'ikai keu tui au ia ki he pehee 'e FKFALALA E mafai 'O E TOHITAPU 'i he OLA (not grounded in the response of the hearers nor in the subjective experiences of the writers), ka 'i he mo'oni pe ko ia ko e "manava mai 'a e 'Otua" (God breathed-out). 

'Oku 'ikai 'uhinga ia kia au ko e mafai si'isi'iange e tohitapu he 'OTUA peau talangofua si'isi'i ai. 'Oku 'ikai ha fa'ahinga fkkaukau pehee ia 'ia au ke ne hanga 'o jusify ha'aku fkfotunga ki he 'OTUA 'o tefito he MAFAI 'O E tohitapu. Ko e fkfotunga 'oku ou tui 'oku taau ke fai ko e MO'UI FKTATAU KI HE FKMANATU ME'A 'a LM,he 'oku FALLIBLE E TOHITAPU pea 'oku 'iai e possibility ai ke ne MISLEAD E PEOPLE.

Ko 'etau KAVEINGA LEVA IA KO E FALLIBILITY and INFALLIBILITY 'a e tohitapu. 

'ofa atu mo e lotu

lotopoha.



 
2009/4/18 Lotopoha Jeruel <seluel...@gmail.com>
ma'alahi ia fkpulia, pea fkkoloa foki. malo e fktalanoa pea 'oku te koloa'ia ai. 'oku 'ikai 'iai ha me'a ia 'e kovi he fe'inasi'aki he tohitapu.
 
fkpulia, mo'oni koe he me'a ko ena, he ko ia ia ne fai'aki hotau popongo fketolosia he 'api ko nafualu. pea 'oku ou agree ki he kongalahi e me'a kuo ke fktalanoa mai ai. ko e konga si'i 'oku ou fihia ai.

 
In Properties:
Ko ha taukave ke ne identify tokua 'oku property tatau matematee 'a e Folofola 'Aloo mo e Folofola Tohii as one and same, 'oku hala ia, kiate au pe ia, pea 'oku ke mo'oni 'aupito ai Lotopoha, but as I have said, everybody knows that, so what? It is a question of form pea tuku atu pe ia ke mo fetakai ai.
 
FORM
ko e question of form, 'oku ou fihia ai, 'oku makatu'unga ia he me'a ko eni.
1). 'oku 'iai ha useia 'i he tonounou 'a e forms ki he kakano ('uhinga /meanings) 'o e potutohi (veesi) pea pehee foki ki he vahe(chapter), 'o faai atu ke a'u ki he tohi kakato, pea toe tahataha atu 'o a'u ki he Tohitapu katoa? hangee pe ko e ki'i fktaataa ne u ngaue'aki kimu'a:
 
pea malanga e ki'i motu'a levolo takapau, 'pea moe HEA 'oku KAI fkhake mo MAVAEUA hono PESIPESI, 'e tapu foki mo ia etc...
 
ko e haa e impact 'a e malanga ko eni ki he tafa'aki divine 'o e tohi? 'oku taau ketau hingaki ki he ki'i motu'a e palopalema, pe ko e kau hikitohi, pe ko e kau ako mo faiako tohitapu, pe ko e kau faifekau?
 
2). hange pe ko ia kuo ke lave ki ai fkpulia, 'oku ma'olungaange e tafa'aki divine he tafa'aki 'e taha. ko 'etau hanga ko ee 'o tali'aki e SO WHAT?, ko e kau Tonga pe ia mo e kau islanders pe ko ha toe matakali 'oku kei langalanga hake honau fonua te nau settle ai. 'Ikai ko e tafihu fkliguistic e "one coins with two sided" pea toe fkfilosofia foki 'o tokoni he tafa'aki pe ko ee 'oku lolotonga 'iai e kau Tonga, ka ki he tafa'aki 'e taha, hangee ko ha kau Tonga kuo lauita'u 'enau nofomuli pe ko ha kau muli 'e toe 'asiliange 'enau faingata'a'ia.
 
hangee kiate au fkpulia, 'oku 'IKAI KO E SO WHAT? ka ko e challenge eni ia 'a ee kuo 'asi mei he FORM ke HIKIHAKE 'etau tokanga mo e ngaue ko e kau INTERPRETER 'o e tohitapu. 'Oku fu'u more GENERAL e tali ia 'oku tau fai, 'oku ou tui kuo leleiange ngaahi naunau 'o e 'aho ni ke ngaue'aki 'o ki'i momosi atu,mai, hake, hifo ki he kakai 'o e lalo takapau mo e fungatakapau foki.
 

In Revelation:

 
 

2009/4/17 penisimani mone <peni...@gmail.com>
Lotopoha:
Sfaupula, 'oku ou tui pe 'e MAHINO LELEIANGE 'ena ki he'eku FOKOTU'U ne lave atu ki ai, 'a e MALOHI 'a e Kosipeli 'a Sione ki he TALANOA TU'UNGA pea pehee foki ki he'eku TAUKAVE'I 'A E HANGA 'E SISU 'o FKFAIKEHEKEHE'I IA mei he TOHITAPU - ko e tohi fkmo'oni (testimony) kiate IA pea 'IKAI ke na MAFAI TATAU. sai pe 'oku kei mohe pe e ki'i HEA fk-kina. (kuo te'eki pe ma'u mai ha fktotolo ha kau saienisi mo ha kau palofesa ki he ki'i HEA?)
-----------
Mahalo pe ongo tangata kuo taimi ke ki'i lele atu e tisii ee, koloaa ho'omo ki'i too mai ki hoku paengaa na'a mo toe hola mo ua ki homo falee ee. Mo inuinu pe kau ngaahi ange e saliotee ko enii ke fai mo sai.
 
 
In Witnessing:
Both Church and Scriptures are not God themselves, but they witness to a Triune God. Mo'oni 'aupito koe, Abdul, kiate au pe ia. Happy? But as I have said, we at the lalo takapau all know that, so what is the issue?
 
God reveals and communicates, 'ikai ko ia? pea 'oku tau tui kotoa ki ai, he kapau 'e 'ikai pea 'e feefee ai ha'atau ofi atu, ta'e'aonga ange fau, ta'e'aonga ange fau!! Kapau ko ia, pea kuo pau leva ke ne reveal mo communicate ia in whatever form 'oku ne finangalo ki ai, pea 'i he Folofola 'Aloo ko e 'ai fallible kakano ko ia 'oku tau fetakai ai 'i he kosipeli 'a Sionee, pea 'i he'ene folofola leaa leva eni 'i he fallible tohi tapuu. All form are fallible (liable to err) yet God wills to reveal and communicate in form, in fallible written documents. In revelation, both fallible author and author's fallible Scriptures must have inspiration for they both involve in divine revelations and communication.

He kapau te tau ta'ofi ke 'oua 'e fakahaa'i mai 'e he 'Otuaa ia 'i he Scripture he 'oku fallible hono form, 'asinga ai 'etau fie pule atu ki he 'Otuaa, pea 'e feefee ai ha'atau 'ilo ki he taumama'o atu, ta'e-mahakule-a. As we all know, fallible form (physical book, ink, verse, etc) is only a side of the coin but a necessary side, for without it there is no divine revelation and communication. Pea ko hono fa'a fahiua 'o e one coin ke kehe fallible form mei hono kosipelii 'oku te fakatou abuse looua ai kinaua 'i he taimi tatau pee, he na'e revelation ia mo communication ke na fefakakoloa'aki 'o 'ikai te na fesiitu'a'aki.

In Translation:

Na'e mu'aki hikitohi 'a e original divine revelation/communication 'e ha kau fallible but authors 'i ha fallible language 'e taha (Gk or Heb). Ka koe'uhi ko 'ena deal mo e divine revelation/communication pea na fakatou inspired looua ai, 'ikai malava 'e he'ena fallibilities 'o ta'ofi 'ena inspirations koe'uhi 'oku ma'olunga ange 'a hona side divine revalation 'i hona side fallibilies.

Ka ko e Scriptures foki ko e koloa ia 'a e community of faith, 'a ia 'oku kau ai 'a e kakai ia 'o e ngaahi lea kehekehe, 'o pau ai ke translate ma'a nautolu foki.Ka 'okapau 'e toe translate, na'a toe more fallible ai e original manuscripts? Sai pe ia, translate, he 'e lahi ange pee lelei 'o hono eternal messages 'i hono fallible languagess, 'o nau toe inspiration atu aipe koe'uhi ko 'enau deal mo e original divine revelations. Original revelation does not necessarilly loose its inspiration/revelation through the process of translation, but the book looses for sure its divine revelation/communication when it is not translated to the language of the faithful readers.

In Hare:

Na'a ku 'oatu 'a e ki'i dictionary entry ko iaa ke 'eke 'aki kiate koe Abdul pe ko hai 'e pule ki hono meaning 'o e fo'i "hare". He kapau 'e pule 'a e kau modernists/readers pea 'ikai ha'anau 'ilo ki ha hare pehee 'e kai fakahake pe mavaeua e topuva'e pe whatever pea te nau kaila leva - MISTAKES! CONTRA!!  kae sisina 'a e author 'o hangee ko ho'o 'aii Abdul. Pea kapau 'e pule 'a e original author ki he 'uhinga 'o 'ene fo'i heaa, pea 'ikai 'ilo ki ha hare pehee 'e he readers, 'e fakatulou leva 'a e faithful readers mo fai 'a e lau 'a e entry - "..kataki pe author 'oku 'ikai teu 'ilo ki ho'o fo'i heaa he taimi ni, ka teu translate pehe ni pee mo talitali ai na'a ku toki 'ilo ki ai 'amui." 'Oku 'ikai ko ha palopalema ia 'a e author, translated text, ka 'a e readers hangee ko tautoluu ee. After all, Scriptures is about a God, and not about a hare, kae sai pe he 'oku tau kei lele pe tautolu he fallible form ee.

...mo ki'i inuninu atu kau tu'u 'o fakama'u ai leva ee va'e saliotee...

--
fakapulia


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Nau Ahosivi

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Apr 18, 2009, 8:20:12 AM4/18/09
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Malo mu'a Veni, Lotopoha mo Fakapulia e talanoa malie he ko e reality 'o e 'aho ni. Ma'a lahi e ngaahi texts ia 'oku unu mai ki he ngaahi taukave pea mo e ngaahi fk'uhinga kiai. Kae fktu'u atu mu'a 'a e ki'i fifili ko eni he ko e sio ai pe mei he lalo takapau.
 
Ko e ngaahi tohi kotoa koee 'oku fa'o he 'etau tohitapu 'oku makatu'unga ai e talanoa ki hono mafai, fakamanava'i etc.etc. Kae fktokanga'iange ko e ngaahi tohi 'apokalifa 'oku 'ikai kau ia he 'etau ngaahi tohi, ka 'oku kau ia he ngaahi tohi 'oku fkau he tohitapu 'a e Katolika Loma. Fefee 'a e ki'i Kosipeli 'a Tomasi, 'a 'ene ta'e-kau he lau?
 
Ko e 'ikai kau 'a e ngaahi tohi 'apokalifa he 'etau tohi pea 'e lau nai ia 'oku 'ikai 'iai ha mafai mo ha manava? Pea hange ko e kosipeli 'a Tomasi?
 
Hange kiate au ko e issue eni 'e taha, 'a e mafai 'o e filifili 'a e ngaahi tohi ke fkhu ki he 'etau canon? Ko e fo'i fkmmau tuku koee na'a nau fai'aki pea tapuni 'o e 'ikai toe tanaki mai kiai ha tohi 'oku faufaua hono ivi mafai. 'E maumautaimi hono fakamanava'i 'e he LM 'a e author kapau na'e 'ikai fkkau ia 'e he kau filfili tohi ki he 'etau canon.
 
Koiaa, 'oua e ngata pe potalanoa he ivi, mafai, fkmanava 'o 'etau tohi tapu, ka mou fklave hake ki he lula na'e fua'aki e ngaahi tohi ni ki he 'etau canon he ko e fo'i lula 'oku ma'a atu hono fu'u ivi.
 
Tuku pe si'i Tomasi mo 'ene ki'i kosipeli he na'e 'ikai kau e LM ia ai. Faka'ofa ko Tom eeee!!!
 
mo e 'ofa ai pe
Nau
 
 
 
 

sfaupula

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Apr 18, 2009, 9:50:28 AM4/18/09
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malo pe ena ia abdul lotopoha. ko e palopalema pe he na'e 'ikai ke hiki 'e sne ia e 5:39, 20:30-31, 5:46, 24:27 with the intention to prove that the bible is not the very words of god. 'oku ke ngaue'aki mo mimimimio (twist n twist) e ngaahi proff texts koeni ke tatau mo ho'o fkkaukau, ka 'oku 'ikai ko e intention ia 'a sne.
 
ko e intention 'a sne 'a ena pe 'oku ke fkmatala'i. that jesus is the messiah, son of god and we need to beleive (truthfully 'n' actively) in him. that's it. to add on to this proclamation by way of bending the texts to assert that john attempted to disprove the authority of scripture as god's words is an outright distortion of the whole texts.
 
ka 'oku malie foki e anga 'etau hanga 'o fokotu'u ha fo'i fkkaukau pea tau fkvave atu ki he tohitapu 'o hakule, mahakule, makule ke fkmo'oni'i mei ai 'etau ngaahi fkkaukau.
 
how about next time we preach on these texts, our theme will be:
 
"jesus is god, therefore god did not inspired the whole bible."
 
intro and content:
 
in john's gospel jesus claimed to be the son of god. he justified his claim by pointing out to the pharisees that the scriptures pointed to him. Therefore, jesus is god and scriptures was not inspired by god.
 
application:
 
so next time you read the bible remember that it is not god's words and if you come across anything in it which tells you to flee from immorality and there are contradictions, disregard those bits and read only the bits which speaks of god's love. oh yeh! listen hard to the spirit and if it does not talk to you, you are under no obligation to love your neighbor.
 
have a great morning. amen
 
'oi aue! ha tamafu atu 'a sne 'i hevani hono mimio pehe'i 'ene tohiiii?
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 6:56 PM
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?]

malo e fktalanoa ko ia sfaupula pea 'oku 'ikai ha maumau ia ai. kehe ke fai pe he loto lelei hange ko e FK'AMU 'a Sione Uesilee ee! ko e hau he fkmafana.
 
Pea KAPAU 'OKU MATA'AA'AA pehe ho'o MIMIO ha fkamatala 'a ha taha he FALE NI, pea taa 'E 'IKAI HALA KEU PEHEE , 'OKU mou MIMIO PEHEE'I FOKI e tohitapu ki ha'amou tauakave 'oku fai.
 
'Oku 'IKAI ko 'eku tokanga 'aku KE KE TALI pe ta'etali 'eku ngaahi fkkaukau, KA KO 'EKU TOKANGA KE MAHINO 'EKU FKKAUKAU 'oku fokotu'u he fale ni
 koe tali atu ai pe ia ho'o ngaahi FFIFILI ko ena ne ke 'OMAI.
 
Tuku keu hoko atu au.
 
Ko e TOHITAPU, 'oku 'IKAI MAFAI TATAU mo e 'OTUA 'oku talanoa ki ai, ka 'oku ne fatongia hangee ko e Papa Fkhinohino he HALAPULE'ANGA. Koe'uhi he 'oku 'iai e ngaahi taumu'a mo e 'uhinga 'oku FK'AMU 'a e tohitapu ke ma'u 'e ha TAHA te ne lau.
 
Poupou atu ai pe eni ki he ngaahi potutohi ko ena ne 'osi 'oatu (Sione 5:39). Ko e taumu'a foki ia e Kosipeli 'a Sione ko e feinga ke TUI e KAKAI kia Sisu Kalaisi, ko e 'Alo ia 'o e 'Otua. Pea 'i he TUI kiate Ia, 'e MA'U AI E MO'UI (Sione 20:30-31) Pea ko e vahe 5:46, 'oku haa mahino ai 'a e feinga 'a Sisu ke fkmahino koe TOHI (FM -NIMA'I PUKA) 'a e tokotaha ko ia, ko e tohi kia AU. 'Oku lea foki 'a Luke ki he me'a tatau (24:27), 'aia 'oku haa ai ne hanga 'e Sisu 'o fkmahino ko e tohi 'a Moses mo e kau Palofita ko e tuhu iate Ia. Hange tofu peni ko e tokanga 'a Pita he tohi (Ngaue 10:43),"'Oku fkmatala 'a e kau palofita kotoa pe ki he tokotaha ko ia..."
 
Hangee kiate au ko e FKMANAVA'I 'o e tohitapu 'oku KAUNGATONU mo hono fatongia ko eni?
 
Neongo 'ene ho'ataa malie mai heni e fatongia 'o e tohitapu ko e TUHU kia FOLOFOLA MO'UI, ka 'oku MAHINO LELEI ai pe 'a e TU'UNGA 'o ha TAHA mei hono FATONGIA. Pea ta 'oku 'IKAI MAFAI TATAU pe TU'UNGA TATAU e 'OTUA ia mo e tohitapu. Koe'uhi ko ia, pea ta 'oku taau ke fai ha tokanga ki he FKKAUKAU 'o e FKMANAVA'I.
 
'Eii, KO E ki'i HEA (lev.16:11, teut.14:7) ee 'oku si'i 'aa mai!! 'Oku Fk'ofa, 'ene siosio atu, ko e TALI KI HE KAU SAIENISI MO E KAU PALOFESA. kuo nau mei a'u mai? kole ange ki he KAU saienisi mo e kau Palofesa ke nau to'o atu pe mo e ki'i text ko ena (1tu'i 7:23) 'o fktonutonu'i mai mo ia he 'oku FK'OFA E KAU NGAUE LANGA he kuo ha'u e MOMOKO. lahi e mate he niumonia ee!

ma'u pe ha weekend lelei ee!
'ofa atu mo e lotu,
lotopoha.
 
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 6:39 PM, sfaupula <sk...@bigpond.com> wrote:

sfaupula

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Apr 18, 2009, 11:01:05 PM4/18/09
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malo nau e fifili mahu'inga. ka e mahlo ko e ki'i me'a leka pe teu fokotu'u atu heni ke tau kamata ai ko e 'ikai ke ngaue'aki he'e kau hiki ff 'a e ngaahi intertestamental books, tukukehe pe 'a siuta 'oku refer kia 'inoke (most likely from the book of enoch), he taimi 'oku nau refer ai ki he fm. almost every other books in the ot features quite prominantly in the new testament writings. even jesus indicated in luke and john that the three main divisions in the hebrew bible were the accepted authoritative canon of his time. kapau ko e me'a eni, pea 'oku malava pe ke tau pehee ko e ngaahi accepted authoritative books which jesus referred to were the ones which paul had in mind in 2 tm 3:16-17.
 
ko e me'a ki he ff te tau toki alasi fklelei'i ange ia...
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 10:20 PM
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?]


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sfaupula

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Apr 19, 2009, 7:17:28 AM4/19/09
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malie lahi ia abdul lotopoha. ko e founga fktonulea mei he authorial intention approach 'oku determine 'e he anga e fokotu'utu'u 'e he author 'ene texts 'a e anga hono interpret 'a e texts. hange pe koeni - kapau teu tohi atu 'o tala atu e me'a ne hoko kiate au, the way in which i use words and structure the sentences to explain the context of my situation would determine how you are to interpret and understand my intention. this should be applied to how we also read the bible an the parameters by which we set the interpretion for the meaning of the author.
 
let me make this a little clearer.
 
what was in question in this controversy? was it the position of scripture as god's words as opposed to jesus' divine position (according to your reflection), or was it jesus' action on the sabbath and his claim to be equal with god, justified by god and scriptures?
 
first, according to the text it was jesus' action on the sabbath that was in question. v.16 - "and this was why the jews were persecuting jesus, because he was doing these things on the sabbath". by jesus' answer in v.17, we are right to say that the pharisees objected to jesus' action on the sabbath.
 
so, what's in question was jesus' action on the sabbath, not the position of scriptures as a testimony to christ.
 
why would john or jesus want to contest the authority of scriptures in this chapter when the issue is about christ's activity on the sabbath? 'ikai ko ia pe, ka 'oku 'ikai ke 'i ai ha fkkaukau pehe ni ia 'i he konga kimu'a 'o e vahe koeni pea mo e konga 'oku hoko atu mei he vahe koeni.
 
to justify his action jesus answered the pharisees by way of alligning his messianic activity with the work of his father. (v.17) "kuo ngaue 'eku tamai 'o a'u ki he taimi ni, pea 'oku ou ngaue mo au foki"
 
ko ia ai, tupu mei he ngaue faifkmo'ui 'a sisu 'i he sapate na'e fehu'ia ai 'e he kau falesi 'ene maumau'i e lao. ka 'i he taukapo 'a sisu 'oku hanga ai 'e sisu 'o fktatau ia mo e 'otua, koe'uhi ke mahino ki he kau falesi 'oku 'ikai ko ha palopalema 'ene ngaue na'e fai pea ko ia 'a e fkmo'ui.
 
sai, ko e fehu'i, 'oku angafefe 'a e feinga heni 'a sione ke talamai kiate kitautolu ko e me'a 'oku tuku ki ai 'ene tokanga ko e kehekehe 'a sisu mei he tohitapu?
 
tau hoko atu ai pe ki hono fktonuhia'i 'e sisu 'ene ngaue na'e fai.
 
'oku mahino mei he v.17 ne fktonuhia'i 'e sisu 'ene me'a na'e fai, 'aki 'ene fktatau ia ki he 'otua. ko ia na'a ne ngaue'aki e ngaahi fkmo'oni ki he'ene taha mo e tamai, 'i he anga hono va mo e tamai, meia sione papitaiso, mei he le'o 'o e tamai pea mo e tohitapu (vv.19-39).
 
katoa e ngaahi fkmo'oni koeni 'a sisu ko 'ene feinga pe ke fkmahino ki he kau falesi 'a e taau 'o 'ene ngaue na'e fai and that he is god's salvation. so, the status of the scriptures as god's words and its relation to jesus is not in question here as lotopoha would have us believe. the main focus of the controversy is about christ's right to perform that which he did on the sabbath. no where does the context and the flow of this narrative suggest that jesus relegated the bible to an inferior position than himself. why? because that's not an issue here.
 
abdul lotopoha would make it an issue because it fits his agenda well. but it's a shame because reflection - abdul lotopoha's hermeneutical speculative method - amounts to wild speculation and distortion of authorial intention. but then again, abdul lotopoha might have a habit of molesting texts.
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 5:43 PM
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?]

malo sfaupula e fkpinepine mai, kae 'oua pe tuka. pea malo ho'omo kei fei talanoa lelei mai. 'oku ou fktauange pe ne mou ma'u ha sapate lelei fklaumalie pea mo hono FEKAU 'oku TUHU PE KIA SISU. tuku keu hoko atu.

ko e me'a lelei he KUO 'OSI TUFA TAKI TAHA MAI PE ' ehe 'Otua hotau ngaahi 'TAMAI takitaha mo e ngaahi FOFONGA VAKAI ke tau fkkaukau'aki mo sio'aki ki he ngaahi me'a kotoa pe kuo HIKITOHI ke tau lava takitaha pe 'o 'ILO mo MA'U E MAHINO ki he LOI mo e MO'ONI kae'uma'aa e MIMIO 'oku ke lau ki ai.
 
hangee pe ko 'eku lave atu kimu'a , 'e 'IKAI MOLE HOKU TAIMI hano interfere taha KE FORCE mai ia ke TUI ki ha'aku fkmatala, pe INDOCTRINATE taha ke tau ma'u ha'aku taukave 'i honau 'atamai ('oku ou lau ia 'e au ko e TAHA ENI HE NGAAHI ABUSIVE ACTS 'oku hoko he lotofale 'o e lotu pe 'asi mei he KAULOTU), he 'OKU TAKITAHA PE honau 'atamai pea taimi tatau TUKU KE MANAVA ATU 'A LM 'o fkloto'i kinautolu mo tataki kia FOLOFOLA MO'UI (SISU), te nau fuoloaange ai he lotu mo ngaue fktomaatoato.
 
ko hoku fatongia pe ko e TUKU ki lotofale ke nau TAU'ATAAINA ki ai.(TAU'ATAINA KE FILI, ee) 
 
KAPAU teu fai ha'aku ki'i malanga he TEXTS ko ena, ko eni ha'aku KAVEINGA:
 
"Ko e FATONGIA 'o e TOHITAPU(written documents) kia SISU (FOLOFOLA MO'UI). OR "Ko e TOHITAPU ko e FKMO'ONI PE KIA SISU (FOLOFOLA MO'UI).
 
'Oku very simple and clear enough, ko ia koaa sfaupula pe 'ikai.
 
Fatongia 'o e tohitapu ko e FKMO'ONI KIA SISU, 'oku lava leva ke reflect mei ai hono (tohitapu) TU'UNGA, 'oku lalotepile ia 'ia FOLOFOLA MO'UI (SISU). He 'oku tala mei he TU'UNGA PE FATONGIA e mafai 'o ha me'a pe ko ha taha. 'Oku kehekehe 'aupito ia mo e hanga 'e Sisu 'o fkmahino 'ENA TAHA MO E TAMAI.
 
Hange pe ko ia kuo mou lave'i, 'oku angamaheni'aki 'e he tohitapu hono fkmahino ma'u pe 'a e LAHI mo e TAUMAMA'O ATU e 'Otua ia mei ha'atau fkkaukau. 'Oku 'ikai ngata pe hono fkmatal 'e he tohitapu ki he 'amanaki hoko mai 'a Kalaisi, ka kuo ne toe talanoa foki ki he Kalaisi ko ia ne kalusefai, pekia, telio, toetu'u, ha'ele hake, fekau'i mai 'a TAUKAPO, pea 'e toe ha'ele mai, Fkmaau etc.) Katoa ko e "hu'u kotoa pe mo tafe ki he kaveinga ko SISU(FOLOFOLA-MO'UI).
 
Laulau mai ki he motu'a ko ena, (lev.11:20-21) he kuo toomui mai ia kuo 'alu 'a HEA IA MOE KAU LANGA.
 
'ofa atu mo e lotu
lotopoha.

Nau Ahosivi

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Apr 19, 2009, 8:17:20 AM4/19/09
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Lotopoha:
kau tangata, 'oku ou tui pe 'e TOKONI tau e ki'i kokohi ko ena ki he'etau fe'inasi'aki 'oku fai. Nau teu toki lave atu ki he tohi 'a Tomasi, he 'oku malie lahi 'aupito ia.
-------------------------------------------------------
 
Malo Lotopoha mo Veni e tokangaekina mai e ki'i langa fkkaukau na'e fai atu. 'oua e tuku hono faofao mai he ko e fkkoloa ee!!!
 
moe 'ofa
Nau

Heneli Viliami Vete

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Apr 19, 2009, 5:10:32 PM4/19/09
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Ne talanoa 'e ha tangata'eiki, ki he anga e ako English he honau taimi. Pea pehe atu e faiako, "..faka-Tonga..au...ka mou ...faka-Pilitania mai....Mahino!" Pea pehe atu e faiako, " 'Oku ou fie kaia au.."sai..kamata"...tali e tamasi'i.."I wanna eat me." Pehe atu e faiako? .." Hala ia...!" Pehe atu e faiako, "MALIE MASI'I E TALI."
Pehe atu e faiako .."'Oku akasio atu mo e loto'ofa." ...Pehe atu e tamasi'i ako 'e taha, " Koau! Ko au!" ...Pehe atu e faiako, "sai fakalongolongo!"....
Tamasi'i ako, " My love is window for you.."
 
Malo lahi kautama! Fakamalo atu Faifekau he tauhi e palepale...'Ofa ke mou ma'u ha Uike Fonu Ivi ke fakakoloa 'aki  hotau ngaahi fatongia 'oku mou fuesia mei homou ngaahi Fonua na.

 
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 20:39:48 -0700

Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?]

Sepesi

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Apr 19, 2009, 7:28:15 PM4/19/09
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Faifekau teke toe 'ai 'e Koe ke u huu atu mo au he Molomona ? pea pehe
mai mo e Mosi mo 'enau Tohii.

Ko e talanoa ko ena, 'i he fananga kuo fai 'e Lotopoha 'oku malie kete
fakafekiki 'aki mo ha taha ta'elotu he ko e Tohitapu ia 'oku ne
taukave'i .

Ko e Tohitapu 'oku tau kau tautolu ki ai 'ae Tohitapu Fakakalisitiane
'ae Palotisani pea ko eni kuo pehe 'e Lotopoha 'oku fehalaaki e Tohii he
ko e hiki 'e he tangata. Ka 'oku mau pehe 'emautolu mo Veni , ne
fakamanava'i, pea ko e mafai tonu ia 'o e 'Otua 'oku 'i he Tohitapu ko
iaa.

Ko 'ene too pe 'ae taukave ke fakatonutonu e tohitapu haneg ko ia 'oku
fai 'e Lotopoha pea 'e 'ataa pe kete fananga kita mei a 'Aho'eitu, 'ai
ai mo e 'ikai 'ilo'i hono hingoa totonu pea ko e 'uma'aki ke 'ave ha'ate
mo'oni ki ai.

ko e fanongo talanoa atu pe.

takamuli.
-------------

sfaupula

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Apr 19, 2009, 9:06:27 PM4/19/09
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ko e mele pe eni
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 7:14 PM
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?]

faifekau malo mu'a tau mo e ngaue mei hena, pea 'oku tau lau he kau mo kau he lau koe'uhi pe ko e tauhi mo e malu mo'ui 'oku fai 'e 'Eiki 'ia LM m'a kitautolu.
 
ko e taha ia he me'a fkfiefia ko e kau mai ke tau kaunga fe'inasi'aki he fale ni, neongo KUO ongo fktipeiti mo fotunga fkfekiki. Kaiekehe ko efeifia pe ia 'i ho'omou lave mai.
 
Tuku keu ki'i lave si'i atu pe ki he me'a kuo ke tokanga mai ki ai, he 'oku ke mo'oni 'aupito ai.
 
Kuo mau mo'u nofoa he kae ngalo 'oku tokoni ke lave'i mo e me'a 'oku tokanga ki ai. Ne u 'osi lave atu foki kimu'a he me'a ko eni, 'a e ngaah me'afua ne fua'aki e ngaahi tohi ke KAU mo HOKO ko e tohi ia he tohitapu, 'aia 'oku tau ngaue'aki kaetukukehe e ngaahi tohi ia ne tali pe ia 'e he Katoliak Loma. Ko e ngaahi poini laahi pe 'e 3 ne ngaue'aki ki hano TALI HA TOHI KE KAU HE TOHITAPU.
 
1). Ko e Hangafua 'o e Tui (rule of faith): Ko e founga eni ne siofi'aki e KAKANO 'o e tohi pe na'e/'oku auau tatau mo e anga 'o e TUI, 'aia ne tauhi tukufkholomai 'e he fuofua kulupu ne nau fkhoko e ngaue Kenoni 'o e Fuakava Fo'ou, 'aia ko e Mu'aki Tui Fk-Katolika (Poto-Orthodoxy). 'Aia ko e 'uhinga 'o e lea "orthodoxy" ko e (correct opinion) pea ko hono ngaahi siasi ne ui ko e Katolika. 'Aia ko e lea katolika 'oku 'uihnga ia ko e Fkmamani Lahi (universal). 'Aia ne hanga 'e he Siasi ko eni 'o tauhi mai e ngaahi akonaki tukufkholo ko eni 'i hono ako'i ki honau ngaahi va'a 'o elave'i mo 'enau tui mo e ngaue (belief and practice).
2).Ko e Motu'a'ianga pe Tupu'anga Fk'apositolo (apostolic origin)
Ko e tohi ne fai 'e ha 'apositolo (hongofulu ma ua) pe kaungaangaue mo kaunga 'o felave'i mo ha 'apositolo, ne meimei ke ivilahiange ia ki hano tali, 'i he ngaahi tohi ne 'IKAI ha'anau felave'i mo ha 'apositolo.
Ex. ko e ngaahi tohi 'a Paula ne kau he ngaahi fuofua tohi pea toe TALI fuofua TALI foki ki he Kenoni.
 
Ko e taimi ne ngaue'aki ai e hangafua ko eni, ne meimei too e fkmamafa ki hono vakai'i e TAHA FA'UTOHI, koe'uhi ne lahi e ngaahi tohi ia he senituli 2 mo e 3 ne fa'u 'o tala ko e ngaue 'a e kau 'apositolo.Ne 'ikai tali e ngaahi tohi ko ia he Proto-Orthodox kae hao atu honau ni'ihi ki he Kenoni'a 'Atunasio. Pea ne kau ai pe 'a e ta'efiemalie e kau ako tokolahi ia he kuohili ke TALI ko Pita na'a ne fa'u 'a e 'ipiseli 2Pita. Pea ne fai ai e laulea lahi, ka kuo haomai e tohi ni mei he Kenoni 'a 'Atunasio 'o kau he Fuakava Fo'ou. Ko e palopalema tatau foki ne hoko ki he 'Ipiseli (1 mo e 2 Timote, Taitusi)he kuo 'ikai TALI ia 'e he kau Ako tokolahi he 'aho ni ke pehee ko e ngaahi tohi eni 'a Paula, ka kuo nau hao hake foki ki he Fuakava Fo'ou. 
3). Ko e tali mo e ngaue'aki 'e ha tokolahi (widespread use): Ko e konga eni ne faingata'a taha hono ngaue'aki. Koe'uhi he ko e hangafua eni ne fu'u pelepelengesi hono filifili'aki ha ngaue pe tohi kuo fai. Ka ko e ngaahi tohi ne tali, ko e ngaahi tohi ia kuo lau mo ngaue'aki 'i he ngaahi siasi 'o tali fkmamani lahi.
 Fkmanava'i: Na'e 'ikai kau e fkkaukau ia 'o e "FKMANAVA'I 'e he 'Otua" he ngaahi hangafua 'o e Filifili mo Tali 'o ha tohi ke kau he Fuakava Fo'ou. Koe'uhi he na'e tui e ngaahi siasi ia 'o e taimi ko ia, 'OKU FKMANAVA'I TATAU PE 'a e ngaahi TOHI KUO KAU he tohitapu mo e ngaahi TOHIKEHE, pea pehe foki ki he NGAAHI TALANOA NE PASSI LEA pe 'o 'ikai tohi (scriptures,other writings, unwritten oral communications).Ka ko Kelemeni 'o Alekisanitulia, na'a ne tulitaupaua 'e ia ko e ngaahi mo'oni fklotu kotoa pe 'o tatau ai pe pe ko e pekani (pagans) pe Kalisitiane 'oku FKMANAVA'I. Ko ia ai, ne 'IKAI kau e fkkaukau ia 'o e FKMANAVA'I 'aia ko eni 'oku tau fkkaukau ki ai he lolotonga ni he ngaahi hangafua 'o e filifili mo e tali e ngaahi tohi ki he Fuakava Fo'ou.
 
kau tangata, 'oku ou tui pe 'e TOKONI tau e ki'i kokohi ko ena ki he'etau fe'inasi'aki 'oku fai.
Nau teu toki lave atu ki he tohi 'a Tomasi, he 'oku malie lahi 'aupito ia.
 
'ofa atu mo e lotu,
lotopoha.
2009/4/18 sfaupula <sk...@bigpond.com>

Version: 8.5.287 / Virus Database: 270.12.0/2066 - Release Date: 04/18/09 09:55:00

sfaupula

unread,
Apr 19, 2009, 9:31:51 PM4/19/09
to tasilisili
ko e mele pe eni 'etau me'a ko e laku mai ki loto e fkmahamahalo.
 
according to jophesus in "against apion", - a primary external evidence - one of the criteria for dertermining the ot canon was prophetic inspiration. abdul lotopoha, 'ofa mai aa 'o 'ai ke kakato 'etau samena pea toki laku mai ki loto, he 'oku ke si'i takihala'i e kakai.
 
philo, - another external primary source - in his writings indicated na'a ne vahe tolu e fokotu'utu'u 'o e tohitapu fkhepelu - hange pe ko e ma'u 'a sisu 'ia luke 24. 'ikai ke ngata ai na'e refer e ngaahi tohi 'a philo ki he ngaahi tohi he fm - tukukehe pe tohi 'a 'isikeli, hiva 'o e hiva, lute, tangilaulau, koheleti, 'eseta, mo taniela. 'oku malie 'a e ngaue 'a philo, he neongo na'e 'osi circulate e ngaahi tohi ia he 'apokalifa he taimi 'o philo. ne 'ikai pe ha'ane refer ki ha tohi ai 'e taha ke pehe ko e folofola (scripture).
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 7:14 PM
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?]

faifekau malo mu'a tau mo e ngaue mei hena, pea 'oku tau lau he kau mo kau he lau koe'uhi pe ko e tauhi mo e malu mo'ui 'oku fai 'e 'Eiki 'ia LM m'a kitautolu.
 
ko e taha ia he me'a fkfiefia ko e kau mai ke tau kaunga fe'inasi'aki he fale ni, neongo KUO ongo fktipeiti mo fotunga fkfekiki. Kaiekehe ko efeifia pe ia 'i ho'omou lave mai.
 
Tuku keu ki'i lave si'i atu pe ki he me'a kuo ke tokanga mai ki ai, he 'oku ke mo'oni 'aupito ai.
 
Kuo mau mo'u nofoa he kae ngalo 'oku tokoni ke lave'i mo e me'a 'oku tokanga ki ai. Ne u 'osi lave atu foki kimu'a he me'a ko eni, 'a e ngaah me'afua ne fua'aki e ngaahi tohi ke KAU mo HOKO ko e tohi ia he tohitapu, 'aia 'oku tau ngaue'aki kaetukukehe e ngaahi tohi ia ne tali pe ia 'e he Katoliak Loma. Ko e ngaahi poini laahi pe 'e 3 ne ngaue'aki ki hano TALI HA TOHI KE KAU HE TOHITAPU.
 
1). Ko e Hangafua 'o e Tui (rule of faith): Ko e founga eni ne siofi'aki e KAKANO 'o e tohi pe na'e/'oku auau tatau mo e anga 'o e TUI, 'aia ne tauhi tukufkholomai 'e he fuofua kulupu ne nau fkhoko e ngaue Kenoni 'o e Fuakava Fo'ou, 'aia ko e Mu'aki Tui Fk-Katolika (Poto-Orthodoxy). 'Aia ko e 'uhinga 'o e lea "orthodoxy" ko e (correct opinion) pea ko hono ngaahi siasi ne ui ko e Katolika. 'Aia ko e lea katolika 'oku 'uihnga ia ko e Fkmamani Lahi (universal). 'Aia ne hanga 'e he Siasi ko eni 'o tauhi mai e ngaahi akonaki tukufkholo ko eni 'i hono ako'i ki honau ngaahi va'a 'o elave'i mo 'enau tui mo e ngaue (belief and practice).
2).Ko e Motu'a'ianga pe Tupu'anga Fk'apositolo (apostolic origin)
Ko e tohi ne fai 'e ha 'apositolo (hongofulu ma ua) pe kaungaangaue mo kaunga 'o felave'i mo ha 'apositolo, ne meimei ke ivilahiange ia ki hano tali, 'i he ngaahi tohi ne 'IKAI ha'anau felave'i mo ha 'apositolo.
Ex. ko e ngaahi tohi 'a Paula ne kau he ngaahi fuofua tohi pea toe TALI fuofua TALI foki ki he Kenoni.
 
Ko e taimi ne ngaue'aki ai e hangafua ko eni, ne meimei too e fkmamafa ki hono vakai'i e TAHA FA'UTOHI, koe'uhi ne lahi e ngaahi tohi ia he senituli 2 mo e 3 ne fa'u 'o tala ko e ngaue 'a e kau 'apositolo.Ne 'ikai tali e ngaahi tohi ko ia he Proto-Orthodox kae hao atu honau ni'ihi ki he Kenoni'a 'Atunasio. Pea ne kau ai pe 'a e ta'efiemalie e kau ako tokolahi ia he kuohili ke TALI ko Pita na'a ne fa'u 'a e 'ipiseli 2Pita. Pea ne fai ai e laulea lahi, ka kuo haomai e tohi ni mei he Kenoni 'a 'Atunasio 'o kau he Fuakava Fo'ou. Ko e palopalema tatau foki ne hoko ki he 'Ipiseli (1 mo e 2 Timote, Taitusi)he kuo 'ikai TALI ia 'e he kau Ako tokolahi he 'aho ni ke pehee ko e ngaahi tohi eni 'a Paula, ka kuo nau hao hake foki ki he Fuakava Fo'ou. 
3). Ko e tali mo e ngaue'aki 'e ha tokolahi (widespread use): Ko e konga eni ne faingata'a taha hono ngaue'aki. Koe'uhi he ko e hangafua eni ne fu'u pelepelengesi hono filifili'aki ha ngaue pe tohi kuo fai. Ka ko e ngaahi tohi ne tali, ko e ngaahi tohi ia kuo lau mo ngaue'aki 'i he ngaahi siasi 'o tali fkmamani lahi.
 Fkmanava'i: Na'e 'ikai kau e fkkaukau ia 'o e "FKMANAVA'I 'e he 'Otua" he ngaahi hangafua 'o e Filifili mo Tali 'o ha tohi ke kau he Fuakava Fo'ou. Koe'uhi he na'e tui e ngaahi siasi ia 'o e taimi ko ia, 'OKU FKMANAVA'I TATAU PE 'a e ngaahi TOHI KUO KAU he tohitapu mo e ngaahi TOHIKEHE, pea pehe foki ki he NGAAHI TALANOA NE PASSI LEA pe 'o 'ikai tohi (scriptures,other writings, unwritten oral communications).Ka ko Kelemeni 'o Alekisanitulia, na'a ne tulitaupaua 'e ia ko e ngaahi mo'oni fklotu kotoa pe 'o tatau ai pe pe ko e pekani (pagans) pe Kalisitiane 'oku FKMANAVA'I. Ko ia ai, ne 'IKAI kau e fkkaukau ia 'o e FKMANAVA'I 'aia ko eni 'oku tau fkkaukau ki ai he lolotonga ni he ngaahi hangafua 'o e filifili mo e tali e ngaahi tohi ki he Fuakava Fo'ou.
 
kau tangata, 'oku ou tui pe 'e TOKONI tau e ki'i kokohi ko ena ki he'etau fe'inasi'aki 'oku fai.
Nau teu toki lave atu ki he tohi 'a Tomasi, he 'oku malie lahi 'aupito ia.
 
'ofa atu mo e lotu,
lotopoha.
2009/4/18 sfaupula <sk...@bigpond.com>
malo nau e fifili mahu'inga. ka e mahlo ko e ki'i me'a leka pe teu fokotu'u atu heni ke tau kamata ai ko e 'ikai ke ngaue'aki he'e kau hiki ff 'a e ngaahi intertestamental books, tukukehe pe 'a siuta 'oku refer kia 'inoke (most likely from the book of enoch), he taimi 'oku nau refer ai ki he fm. almost every other books in the ot features quite prominantly in the new testament writings. even jesus indicated in luke and john that the three main divisions in the hebrew bible were the accepted authoritative canon of his time. kapau ko e me'a eni, pea 'oku malava pe ke tau pehee ko e ngaahi accepted authoritative books which jesus referred to were the ones which paul had in mind in 2 tm 3:16-17.
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sfaupula

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Apr 20, 2009, 7:21:32 AM4/20/09
to tasil...@googlegroups.com
i take your point, but even then 'oku kehekehe pe 'a e fkkaukau 'a kelemeni mei he inspired 'oku 'uhinga ki ai 'a 2 tm. if we read carefully the church father's writings most of the them believed their own writings were inspired. however, ironically, they did not see their own writings in the same light as scriptures. even the church after the 4-5 century regarded the writings of the church fathers as inspired. yet they did not put them in the same category as the canonized nt books. so, what i'm getting at is that we can't make this kind of generalization unless we've considered all other possible explanations.
 
ilueli, 'oua te ke pehe kou feinga ke disprove whatever you say. ko 'eku feinga atu ke ke folahi mai ho'o fkmatala ke kakato. he ko e tu'u ko ee ho'o fkmatala he taimi ni 'oku pehe pe 'e he tokolahi ia 'oku 'uhinga tatau pe 'a e fkmanava'i 'o e ngaahi tohi 'a e kau mu'aki tangata'i lotu pea mo e fuakava fo'ou. ko ia pe masi'i ilueli kou ki'i tokanga ki ai.
 
kaekehe, ko e fehu'i - na'e 'i ai nai ha kau 'a e fa'ahinga tui (tradition - doctrine) kia sisu ne mahino ki he kau 'aposetolo mo e kau muimui kia sisu hili e toetu'u moe penitekosi, 'i hono fkfuofua'i 'a e taau mo ta'etaau ha tohi ke kau ki he ff?
 
'oku ou pehe 'io. ka teu toki vakai ki he ngaahi internal evidences ha lava e me'a 'oku tokanga mai ki ai 'a 'iki. ko ia ai, ilueli ki'i kohikohi tokotaha mai pe he me'a ni pea 'ai ke kakato, kae tuku foki hono mio'i-afe'i ke hoa mo ho'o fkkaukau. hahahaheheheh!
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 8:30 PM
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?]

malo sfaupula e talanoa mai, kae tuku mu'a keu fkmanatu atu e me'a ko eni.
 
vakai hifo ki he 'eku tohi ne 'oatu ko e tali kia NAU neu fkmahino pe ai ko e FUAKAVA FO'OU pe ia. NA'e 'IKAI keu lave atu ki he FM, ka ke foki atu pe 'o HAKULE ke MAKULE mo MAKULEKULE e ngaahi naunau he laipeli, moe ngaahi puha 'o vakai fklelei pe ki ai. 'OUA leva te ke TAFULU na'a te ke motu'a vave he 'oku ke kei si'i.
 
Kapu 'oku ke fiema'u keu TOE FOLAHI ATU HE LOTO FALE NI E NGAAHI CRITERIA ne fili'aki e FM, ko e me'a faingofua pe foki mo ia. MOU KELIKELI ATU KE 'ataa kae lave ha'atau faofao kae 'OUA LEVA e MA'UHALA ki he'eku fkmatala. 'ai 'etau talanoa ke ifo. pea mo ifoifo mai he 'oku fklata.
 
kapau 'e lau'aki pe e lotolelei 'eku ngaahi fktalanoa pea talimai'aki e lotolelei 'e maama pe 'ae me'a ko ia neu lave ki ai, ne fkngatangata pe ia he Fuakava Fo'ou.
 
P.S. fefee e ki'i HEA, KAU LANGA, mo e ki'i manupuna? ne ma'u ha LAU kianautolu pe 'ikai? 'Oku te 'ofa'ia ha'anau mokosia he 'Uhaa ee!
 
'ofa atu mo e lotu
lotopoha

2009/4/19 sfaupula <sk...@bigpond.com>

Version: 8.5.287 / Virus Database: 270.12.0/2068 - Release Date: 04/19/09 20:04:00

sfaupula

unread,
Apr 20, 2009, 7:27:37 AM4/20/09
to tasil...@googlegroups.com
malie lahi ia lotopoha. ko e founga fktonulea mei he authorial intention approach 'oku determine 'e he anga e fokotu'utu'u 'e he author 'ene texts 'a e anga hono interpret 'a e texts. hange pe koeni - kapau teu tohi atu 'o tala atu e me'a ne hoko kiate au, the way in which i use words and structure the sentences to explain the context of my situation would determine how you are to interpret and understand my intention. this should be applied to how we also read the bible an the parameters by which we set the interpretion for the meaning of the author.
 
let me make this a little clearer.
 
what was in question in this controversy? was it the position of scripture as god's words as opposed to jesus' divine position (according to your reflection), or was it jesus' action on the sabbath and his claim to be equal with god, justified by god and scriptures?
 
first, according to the text it was jesus' action on the sabbath that was in question. v.16 - "and this was why the jews were persecuting jesus, because he was doing these things on the sabbath". by jesus' answer in v.17, we are right to say that the pharisees objected to jesus' action on the sabbath.
 
so, what's in question was jesus' action on the sabbath, not the position of scriptures as a testimony to christ.
 
why would john or jesus want to contest the authority of scriptures in this chapter when the issue is about christ's activity on the sabbath? 'ikai ko ia pe, ka 'oku 'ikai ke 'i ai ha fkkaukau pehe ni ia 'i he konga kimu'a 'o e vahe koeni pea mo e konga 'oku hoko atu mei he vahe koeni.
 
to justify his action jesus answered the pharisees by way of alligning his messianic activity with the work of his father. (v.17) "kuo ngaue 'eku tamai 'o a'u ki he taimi ni, pea 'oku ou ngaue mo au foki"
 
ko ia ai, tupu mei he ngaue faifkmo'ui 'a sisu 'i he sapate na'e fehu'ia ai 'e he kau falesi 'ene maumau'i e lao. ka 'i he taukapo 'a sisu 'oku hanga ai 'e sisu 'o fktatau ia mo e 'otua, koe'uhi ke mahino ki he kau falesi 'oku 'ikai ko ha palopalema 'ene ngaue na'e fai pea ko ia 'a e fkmo'ui.
 
sai, ko e fehu'i, 'oku angafefe 'a e feinga heni 'a sione ke talamai kiate kitautolu ko e me'a 'oku tuku ki ai 'ene tokanga ko e kehekehe 'a sisu mei he tohitapu?
 
tau hoko atu ai pe ki hono fktonuhia'i 'e sisu 'ene ngaue na'e fai.
 
'oku mahino mei he v.17 ne fktonuhia'i 'e sisu 'ene me'a na'e fai, 'aki 'ene fktatau ia ki he 'otua. ko ia na'a ne ngaue'aki e ngaahi fkmo'oni ki he'ene taha mo e tamai, 'i he anga hono va mo e tamai, meia sione papitaiso, mei he le'o 'o e tamai pea mo e tohitapu (vv.19-39).
 
katoa e ngaahi fkmo'oni koeni 'a sisu ko 'ene feinga pe ke fkmahino ki he kau falesi 'a e taau 'o 'ene ngaue na'e fai and that he is god's salvation. so, the status of the scriptures as god's words and its relation to jesus is not in question here as lotopoha would have us believe. the main focus of the controversy is about christ's right to perform that which he did on the sabbath. no where does the context and the flow of this narrative suggest that jesus relegated the bible to an inferior position than himself. why? because that's not an issue here.
 
lotopoha would make it an issue because it fits his agenda well. but it's a shame because reflection - abdul lotopoha's hermeneutical speculative method - amounts to wild speculation and distortion of authorial intention. but then again, abdul lotopoha might have a habit of molesting texts.
 
'oku fefe ena?
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 9:10 PM
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?]

MALIE LAHI SFAUPULA E FKMATALA. 'oku malie ko e'IKAI LAVA 'O LAU tupu mei ho'o afe 'au he ngaahi ukie ko eni kuo 'alu 'o tohi MATAIIKI mai. ko ia kapau 'e hokohoko atu ai pe ho'o TOHI MTAIIKI MAI, pea 'e toe MALIEANGE IA mo LOLOTO he 'oku 'IKAI LAVA IA 'O LAU.
 
'ofa atu mo e lotu,
lotopoha

2009/4/19 sfaupula <sk...@bigpond.com>


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sfaupula

unread,
Apr 20, 2009, 7:55:59 AM4/20/09
to tasil...@googlegroups.com
i take your point, but even then 'oku kehekehe pe 'a e fkkaukau 'a kelemeni mei he inspired 'oku 'uhinga ki ai 'a 2 tm. if we read carefully the church father's writings most of the them believed their own writings were inspired. however, ironically, they did not see their own writings in the same light as scriptures. even the church after the 4-5 century regarded the writings of the church fathers as inspired. yet they did not put them in the same category as the canonized nt books. so, what i'm getting at is that we can't make this kind of generalization unless we've considered all other possible explanations.
 
ilueli, 'oua te ke pehe kou feinga ke disprove whatever you say. ko 'eku feinga atu ke ke folahi mai ho'o fkmatala ke kakato. he ko e tu'u ko ee ho'o fkmatala he taimi ni 'oku pehe pe 'e he tokolahi ia 'oku 'uhinga tatau pe 'a e fkmanava'i 'o e ngaahi tohi 'a e kau mu'aki tangata'i lotu pea mo e fuakava fo'ou. ko ia pe masi'i ilueli kou ki'i tokanga ki ai.
 
kaekehe, ko e fehu'i - na'e 'i ai nai ha kau 'a e fa'ahinga tui (tradition - doctrine) kia sisu ne mahino ki he kau 'aposetolo mo e kau muimui kia sisu hili e toetu'u moe penitekosi, 'i hono fkfuofua'i 'a e taau mo ta'etaau ha tohi ke kau ki he ff?
 
'oku ou pehe 'io. ka teu toki vakai ki he ngaahi internal evidences ha lava e me'a 'oku tokanga mai ki ai 'a 'iki. ko ia ai, ilueli ki'i kohikohi tokotaha mai pe he me'a ni pea 'ai ke kakato, kae tuku foki hono mio'i-afe'i ke hoa mo ho'o fkkaukau. hahahaheheheh!
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 8:30 PM
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?]

malo sfaupula e talanoa mai, kae tuku mu'a keu fkmanatu atu e me'a ko eni.
 
vakai hifo ki he 'eku tohi ne 'oatu ko e tali kia NAU neu fkmahino pe ai ko e FUAKAVA FO'OU pe ia. NA'e 'IKAI keu lave atu ki he FM, ka ke foki atu pe 'o HAKULE ke MAKULE mo MAKULEKULE e ngaahi naunau he laipeli, moe ngaahi puha 'o vakai fklelei pe ki ai. 'OUA leva te ke TAFULU na'a te ke motu'a vave he 'oku ke kei si'i.
 
Kapu 'oku ke fiema'u keu TOE FOLAHI ATU HE LOTO FALE NI E NGAAHI CRITERIA ne fili'aki e FM, ko e me'a faingofua pe foki mo ia. MOU KELIKELI ATU KE 'ataa kae lave ha'atau faofao kae 'OUA LEVA e MA'UHALA ki he'eku fkmatala. 'ai 'etau talanoa ke ifo. pea mo ifoifo mai he 'oku fklata.
 
kapau 'e lau'aki pe e lotolelei 'eku ngaahi fktalanoa pea talimai'aki e lotolelei 'e maama pe 'ae me'a ko ia neu lave ki ai, ne fkngatangata pe ia he Fuakava Fo'ou.
 
P.S. fefee e ki'i HEA, KAU LANGA, mo e ki'i manupuna? ne ma'u ha LAU kianautolu pe 'ikai? 'Oku te 'ofa'ia ha'anau mokosia he 'Uhaa ee!
 
'ofa atu mo e lotu
lotopoha

2009/4/19 sfaupula <sk...@bigpond.com>
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Sepesi

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Apr 20, 2009, 7:08:00 PM4/20/09
to tasil...@googlegroups.com
Lotopoha,

Ne u lele atu he Faka'eiki ne me'a ai heni 'ae Queen ko e tuofefine 'o
Paloni Vaea ko Vahoi, pea ne u fanongo he fakatapu ne ngaue 'aki 'e
Vakalahi " Tapu mo e La'a 'oku kei tu'u hangatonu, tapu mo e Queen ki he
La'a kuo too, ka ko e Fehuhu ki he La'a 'oku tu'u ni.
Vakai ai he mafai 'o e Queen Fehuhu, he 'ikai kei ko e famili e ngaahi
holo kae tafoki 'o fakaha'a pea Lomekina ai e Kainga Mapu 'a Vaea nemau
lele atu foki , ka ko e kau Paipa ia Vakalahi mo Sakeasi 'oku na pule'i
e Faka'eiki, malie ee.

Sio he mafai 'o e Lea mo e me'a tonu ai 'ae Queen, 'oku ne 'omi e fiefia
ki he kakai,kehe moe founga, ko e malie ia 'e taha.

takamuli.
-----------------

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 03:57 -0700, Lotopoha Jeruel wrote:
> malo mu'a takamuli e afemai pea ko hono 'ai ia. kaumai ketau
> fe'inasi'aki he ko e talanoa pe he me'a lelei ka 'oku 'IKAI ko HANO
> LAU'ITAHA pe ko ha'atau kaiha'a. 'oku tatau mo e haa 'eku fiefia 'i
> ho'o kau mai. hangee pe ko 'eku fiefia he kau mai 'a fkpulia.

sfaupula

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Apr 20, 2009, 9:40:09 PM4/20/09
to tasil...@googlegroups.com
'AUA!!! ilueli, ko e ki'i me'a leka pe 'oku ke mimio ai e fkmatala 'ia sne, ka ko e fu'u me'alahi, ko e hili pe ho'o fkmo'oni na'e folofola'aki 'e sisu ko e tohitapu ko e fkmo'oni kiate ia, kuo ke tafoki hake koe 'o toe fokotu'u atu ho'o me'a pe ia 'a koe 'oku 'ikai ke sio pehee 'a e tohi ia. 'a ia ko ho'o pehee ko e tohitapu ko e fkmo'oni pe/just a witness.
 
to you the bible is just written documents witnessing to christ. ko ia ai, 'oku ke fkvelo hifo 'e ko e ho'o fkkaukau koeni ki he konga tohi koeni, hili ko ia na'e 'ikai tokanga 'a sisu/sne ki he me'a ko ia.
 
jesus used scripture to justify his action, but he did not try to prove that scripture is only a witness to him. yes, a witnes, but not only a witness according to your own idea. 
 
let me make it clear. please do not twist this passage, he 'oku 'ikai ke feinga 'a sne ke fkmahino heni ko e tu'unga 'o e tohitapu ko e fkmo'oni pe kia sisu, 'o hange ko ia ko ho'o fkkaukau. yes, the bible can function as a witness, but jesus/john did not try to tell people in this passage that this is the only function of scripture.
 
ko e senituli fe ko aa na'e fatu/hiki ai 'a tomasi? ko e hiki eni 'e tomasi (akonga 'a sisu)? pe ko e fatu pe ia 'e ha kakai pe na'a nau pehe ko e ngaahi lea eni 'a tomasi? na'a nau fktefito nai 'enau ngaahi fkmatala 'i he ngaahi kosipeli pea nau toki mimio takai holo pe ai e ngaahi kosipeli 'o fktatau ki he'enau ngaahi fkkaukau pe ia 'anautolu 'o fekau'aki mo sisu?
 
i think it's important that we ought to let people know about these concerns before we make out this gospel to be the same as the other gospels.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 2:44 AM
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?]

malo SFAUPULA e lavelave kuo fai pea neongo 'e toe loloa e me'a ni ko e feinga ki ha ngaahi konga fkhisitolia moe haa fua, ka ko e konga foki ia 'e taha neu ki'i mamae mei ai koe'uhi, he TAUMAIAA kuou FALALA ATU au ki ha'o SOURCE te ke ngauemai'aki HE KUO KE TA'EFALALA'ANGA ko e ia kia au he tafa'aki pehee tupu mei he me'a ko eni:
 
1). Taa tu'olahi ho'o hanga 'o twist 'eku fkmatala he fale ni.
2). kuo ke 'osi ngaue mai'aki e source ki he taha e ngaahi text neu send atu 'o fematematei mai ko e mo'oni, peau SIO HIFO au ki he fkmatala 'a e source ko ia 'oku FONU HAKE AI e FKMAHALO ia.
3). ki'i mahino mo nounouange pe 'a e lavelave ia he LOTOTOHI he ka LOI taha, 'e sio pe e kau mamata ia ki he tohitapu 'o 'ILO AI ko e LOI, pea ka MIMIO, 'e sio pe e kau mamata ia ki he tohi 'o 'ILO ko e MIMIO.
4). 'oku ou fk'amu pe ketau fetaulaki lelei mo e kau levolo takapau ki ha FEITU'UPAU, FAINGOFUA mo NOUNOU. (he kuo mamafa e penisini ia he lolotonga ni).
 
neongo ia, tuku keu toe vakuvaku atu he KO E TU'O 3pe 4 'aki eni 'eku fkmahino atu e fkkaukau neu fokotu'u 'ia Sione 5:39 etc, ka kuo ke FOKI MAI ENI KO E IA HE LEA fkpapalangi, peau pehee 'e au ko ha me'a fo'ou, ka ta koaa ko e me'a tatau ai pe.
 
SFAUPULA 'oku nofo e ngaahi founga vete 'o e tohitapu he SIPA'ILAA 'aia pea 'oku toki fili ai e taha te ne LAU e tohi pe 'e 'ALU HE HALA FEE, pea 'oku toki lahi 'a e fanga ki'i afe ia mei he ngaahi Hala Lalahi ko eni 'e 3. Kuo ke 'osi lave'i eni pea na'a ku 'osi 'Ohake kimu'a atu he'eta talanoa pe. Tuku ke toe fkmanatu atu pe.
 
1). Ko e mamani ''oku 'Aakitu'a mai he tohi (world behind the texts): 'aia ko e tukunga 'oe tukufkholo mo fkhisitolia 'o e Taha Fa'utohi kae'uma'aa e Kakai ne fktaumu'a ki ai e tohi.(ko e haa e 'uhinga 'a e author 'aia na'a ne fk'amu ke paasi ki he kakai na'a ne fktaumu'a ki ai e tohi)
2). Ko e mamani 'i loto he tohi (world within the texts): 'aia ko hano alasi e potutohi 'o 'ataa 'aupito ia mei he "mamani 'aakitu'a" kae nofotaha pe ia "mamani 'i loto he tohi"
3).Ko e mamani lolotonga (world infront the texts): ko e haa e 'uhinga 'a e tohi ia moe mamani 'o e 'aho ni. 'Ikai useia ia 'e he ongo mamani 'uluaki mo e ua.
 
Pea 'oku ou lave'i ko ho'o fematematei mai ko e FO'IHALA LAHI 'ULUAKI 'oku si'i tu'umai ai. Pea mahalo kuo ke fkkaukau kuo 'i ha taha he ONGO Hala ko ee. 'E lava pe ke TONU pea toe lava pe ke HALA.
 
Ko e ki'i fklavelave na'a ku 'osi 'oatu kimu'a he vahe 5 'o Sione, ne mahino pea faingofua foki. Ko ho'o fktalanoa SFAUPULA 'oku maama mai hangehange KUO KE taukave'i, ka toki 'asi ko e LEA HANGATONU MAI 'A SISU 'a e pehee 'oku 'IKAI MAFAI TATAU E tohitapu mo e 'Otua, pea te ke toki fiemalie 9fktonutonu mai kapau 'oku 'ikai tonu). Ka etuku ke u toe lave atu:
 
Ko e vahe 5 'Oku TALI IA 'E HE KAU ako tokolahi ke tittle "kO E TOE 'I SELUSALEMA 'A SISU". Pea 'oku konga lalahi 'e 2:(KO E ISSUE 'E 2)
 
1). hangee pe ko ia neu lave atu ki ai, ko e vaalau he MAUMAU SAPATE 'a Sisu (v.1-18).
2). ko hono fkhaa'i 'e Sisu hono Tu'unga (the claims of Jesus).
Na'e kamata 'e Sisu he (v.18) 'aki 'ene hanga 'o tala ia ko e 'ALO 'o e 'Otua pea ne fktatau ia ki he 'Otua. Pea 'i he konga ai pe ko eni 'oku ne hanga claim ai e ngaahi me'a ko eni:
a) 'ILO e palani 'a e 'Otua (v.20)
e) Ne fkmafai'i Ia 'e he 'Otua ke ne fkhoko e ngaahi Lea mo e Ngaue kuo ne fai (v.19,30)
f). 'oku ne MAFAI ke foaki e mo'u ta'engata (v.21,24,40).
h). 'oku ne MAFAI ke fkmaau e kau pekia mo e kei mo'ui (v.25-29).
 
Ko e HA HAA ngaahi FKMO'ONI ki he'ene (Sisu) claim kuo fai?
 
1). ko e lea mei he 'Otua he papitaiso (v.37)
2). ko e fkmo'oni ne fai 'e Sione Papitaiso (v.33-35)
3). ko 'ene ngaahi ngaue mana (v.36).
4). ko e tohitapu (fuakava motu'a?) (v.39b)
 
Ko ia ai SFAUPULA, kia au ia 'oku 2 e fekau ne fiema'u 'e he fa'utohi ke paasi ki he kakai ne fktaumu'a ki ai 'ene tohi:
 
A). ko e MAUMAU SAPATE 'a Sisu B) pea mo 'ENE FKTATAU IA KI HE 'OTUA. Fktou'osi e ongo me'a ko ia 'e 2, ne 'aasili ai e feinga 'a ha'a Siu ke tamate'i ia. Pea 'oku ma'u fktou'osi pe eni he veesi 18.
so, what's in question was jesus' action on the sabbath, not the position of scriptures as a testimony to christ
ko ia ai, 'oku 'IKAI hanga 'e Sisu 'o deny ha paloplema he tohitapu, ka KUO NE FOLOFLA'AKI, ko e tohi ko ia ko e FKMO'ONI kiate Ia. Pea tanaki atu ai pe mo e ngaahi texts kuou 'oatu SFAUPULA.
 
Ko e ngaue mo e fatongia 'o e tohitapu ko e FKMO'ONI pe kia SISU-FOLOFOLA MO'UI. Pea ko e TU'UNGA 'o Sisu, ko e 'ALO-'OTUA Ia, ka ko e tohitapu ko e FKMO'ONI pe ia. Kei ho'ataa ai pe 'a e lalo tepile 'a e tohitapu 'i he MAFAI 'O E 'OTUA 'o ''IKAI KE NA MAFAI TATAU. 'ouaa, taa ko e hau he mahino ngofua ee!. fklata ia pea fkmafana he 'unu mai 'a e momoko.
 
Tuku ke u hoko atu au ki he Kosipeli 'a TOMASI koe'uhi ke nga'unu e talanoa, kae TUKUAA SFAUPULA e fkvilovilo mo e KOHU pea 'oku toe LONGOA'A.
 ko e konga pe eni mei he Kosipeli 'a Tomasi:
 
1). These are the obsecure sayings that the living Jesus uttered and which Didymus Jude Thomas wrote down. And he said: Whoever finds the meaning of these sayings will not taste death.
 
2). Jesus said: let one who seeks not stop seeking until that person finds; and upon finding, the person will be disturbed; and being disturbed, will be astounded; and will reign over the entirely.
 
'oku ala fkhoa eni kia (Mtt 7:7)
 
"Ask, and it will be given you; search and you will find; knock and the door will be opened for you".
 
54).Jesus said, Blessed are the poor, for your is the kingdom of heaven.
 
'oku hohoa tatau eni mo e lau 'ia (Mtt 5:3)
 
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kindom of heaven".
 
Ko e kosipeli 'a Tomasi ko e taha ia he ngaahi tohi 'oku 'iloa ko e Non-canonical sayings and Gospels. Pea ko e ngaahi lea mo e kakano 'o e tohi ko eni 'oku lau ko e ngaahi folofola 'a Sisu. Kuo tokolahi e kau scholar ia kuo nau TALI 'oku 'iai e ngaahi konga ia he tohi ko eni 'OKU OFIANGE IA KI HE LEA TOTONU 'A SISU (original sayings of Jesus) 'i ha'ane faitatau mo e ngaahi lea 'a Sisu he ngaahi Kosipeli 'e 4 kenoni (he tohitapu), pea toe kaungatonu foki ki he Sisu 'o e Hisitolia (historical Jesus).
Hangee ko 'eku ave ne fai atu he ngaahi criterior 'o e Filifili mo Tali'aki e ngaahi tohi 'o e Fuakava Fo'ou, NE 'IKAI KAU E FKKAUKAU IA 'O E FKMANAVA'I AI, ka ki he Siasi he taimi ko ia ne NAU TUI NE FKMANAVA'I PE 'A E ngaahi tohi he tohitapu pea pehee foki ki he ngaahi tohi kehe 'o a'u ai pe ki he ngaahi talanoa ne te'eki hikitohi ka ne paasi talanoa pe.
 
Fkmaanava'i ko e 'uhiki ia 'o e MAANAVA. Pea ko e MANAVA 'oku tanaki atu ki ai e Mo'ui, Tamaki, lelei, mai, atu, fk'osi, 'aki etc. 'Oku kainga 'aupito e Maanava mo e MAAMAANAVA. Ko e FKMAANAVA'I 'oku lau mo tala NGAAUE nai, ki he'etau fanongo kae'uma'aa hono ngaue'aki.
 
 Kaikehe, lavelave mai ai.

Sepesi

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Apr 20, 2009, 9:57:35 PM4/20/09
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"Oku ou vakai ki he Fatongia 'oe kau nima tapu he faka'eiki ko e
fatongia faingata'a he'enau feinga ke molumalu e me'a kotoa Lotopoha pea
'oku ou vakai ki hono 'ave kinautolu 'o tuku he ngaahi feitu'u 'oku
mavahe hange ha Kilia,pea ko e huu ki tu'a ko e kuu nima pe 'o 'alu ki
Peito pea kuunima mai 'o foki ki hono Polaa.
Ko e mafai 'oe kau nimatapu 'oku nau 'i Pulotu pea tenau toki hake h
a'osi 'ae Pootolu ke kau 'i ha fatongia he Faka'eiki kapau 'oku kei toe
ha keu'i puaka ke ma'u mei ai.
Ko e tapu , 'oku mei he Faka'eiki,pea ko e mafai ia 'o e Faka'eiki ki he
Fonua mo e Kakai he'ikai lava 'o ue'i.

Ko e kaunoa pe.

takamuli.
---------------

sfaupula

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Apr 21, 2009, 1:12:46 AM4/21/09
to tasil...@googlegroups.com
ko ho'o lau ko ee masi'i ilueli 'oku 'ikai mafai tatau e tohitapu mo sisu, 'oku 'uhinga ia ke tau fa'iteliha pe kitautolu ki he me'a tetau fkongoongo ai ki he tohitapu ka tau toki fkongoongo kakato pe kia sisu?
 
kapau te ke ki'i lave'i leka mai ena, kou tui 'e fiefia lahi mai e faifekau ho'o lavame'a...
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 8:57 PM
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?]

malo mu'a takamuli e afemai pea ko hono 'ai ia. kaumai ketau fe'inasi'aki he ko e talanoa pe he me'a lelei ka 'oku 'IKAI ko HANO LAU'ITAHA pe ko ha'atau kaiha'a. 'oku tatau mo e haa 'eku fiefia 'i ho'o kau mai. hangee pe ko 'eku fiefia he kau mai 'a fkpulia.
 
takamuli, ko e hisitolia mo e tuku'au 'o e ha'u 'a e tohitapu (fkmo'oni kia Sisu ka 'oku 'IKAI mafai tatau mo Sisu) 'oku fk-koloa ke te laulau mai ai. Ka ko hono maumau he 'oku fu'u loloa ia ke folahi atu he lotofale ni, pea ko hono fknounou pe ena neu 'OATU ai e ngaahi criteria ne makatu'unga ai hono Filifili mo hono TALI 'o e ngaahi TOHI ke hoko mo kau he FUAKAVAFO'OU.
 
Ka ko ena kuo tafulu'i mai au ia 'e SFAUPULA tokua 'oku 'IKAI ke 'OMAI e FM, ka na'e 'IKAI ke lave atu au ki he FM he 'eku talanoa ko ia, ka ko e Fuakava Fo'ou pe.
 
Koe FM, 'oku ou ma'u pe mo ia, ka ko hono pango he KUO 'OSI HALA pe ia mo FKMAHALO kia kimoutolu ko ena hangee ko SFAUPULA mo homou kau tama, koe'uhi he 'OKU MOU 'osi MAHALO HALA mai pe kimoutolu ia.
 
Tukukehe kapau KUO 'IAI ha'amou ngaahi CRITERIA ia 'a moutolu ne FAI'AKI HO'OMOU FILIFILI MAI E FUAKAVA FO'OU, pea 'ohake ketau SIO KI AI he LOTOFALE NI.
 
Pea kataki pe , takamuli, ka 'ohake, pea 'ai mai pe ke LAVA 'O LAU HANGEE KO HO'O TOHI KO ENI, kae'oua na'a hangee ko e tohimai 'a SFAUPULA Ke mataiiki 'o FAINGATA'A hono lau. 'OHOVALE au ia he ngaahi uike mai ko eni kimui ni HE'ENE HOLO 'A'ANA IA 'O TOHI MATAIIKI.
 
neongo kotoa ia, 'oku ou fiefia lahi 'i ho'omou KAUMAI, kae tuku keu siosio ki he kosipeli 'a TOMASI ke folahi atu ki LOTOFALE ketau vakai KI AI.
 
pea ke TOKONI atu kia Sfaupula mo e kau tama ke TOKANGA'I e ki'i HEA, KAU LANGA mo e MANUPUNA he 'oku 'UHA pea MOMOKO na'a faifai pea te nau PUKE.
 
'ofa atu mo e lotu,
lotopoha.

samipami

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Apr 21, 2009, 5:07:56 AM4/21/09
to tasil...@googlegroups.com, Lotopoha Jeruel

 Kataki pe Kau tama kau ki'ii hua noa atu ,   Kuo mo a'u kihe konga ta'eoli taha 'o'emau lau tasilisili , "KOE FAKAFEKIKI".. koe a'u pe potalanoa kihe fakafekiki pea kuo tu'u ia he le'o ua... Mou kataki 'oua temo  fakafekiki,,

'Oku 'ikai koe TAIMI TONGA 'eni, pe koe KELE'A ke fai ai ha fakafekiki pe kohai 'oku tonu pe hala.......mo 'ofa mai he fofonga 'o Fakapulia he kuo ne 'osi kole atu.. 

Pea koe taha, hangehnage kuo 'asi e feinga pe kohai "oku "tonu" 'ene faka'uhinga,,, kuou kole atu tokanga'ii na'a toe 'osi si'o tau fale he matuku lolotonga 'etau nofo he "fe'inasi'aki [ a'usia].. Koe me'a ia 'oku mo'oni, 'ae talanoa'ii e a'usia 'oku tau ma'u, pea fakaneifua'aki ha ki'ii veesi meihe tohitapu...

'oku 'iheni 'ae kau matu'otu'a he ngaue Fakalotu, mo kataki 'o tokanga'i mai kinautolu,, 'ai momo ki'i fehu'i mai ange pe koe ha 'enau a'usia, malo si'enau kei nofo mai ke lau 'etau potalanoa..

Kapau koho'omo potalanoa 'e lava kemo liliu koha ngaahi fo'i Malanga.... seuke koe ma'a atu,,, kae tuku atu aa e fakafekiki..

Koe ki'i faka-manatu atu 'eni  ;;;;;;;; 
'oku tau'ataina 'ae tangata moe fefine kotoa pe 'ihe lalo langi kihe 'ene Faka'uhinga kihe tohitapu. pe 'oku tonu pe hala ka 'oku ne faiteliha pe kihe me'a 'oku "mahino kiai. pea mei ai leva ..tene tali ia 'aki 'ihe 'ene ausia..

'ai peho'omo Kataki ke lahi,pea mo fiefia mo pasipasi he 'eku ki'i lea atu, kae vakai na'amo talatuki'ii au,,

malo.. moe kaunoa-'ia aipe,
sami.

 

sfaupula

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Apr 21, 2009, 5:55:24 AM4/21/09
to tasil...@googlegroups.com
malo fkongo pea 'oku mo'oni, mo'oni 'aupito ho'o lau. ko e akonaki mahu'inga ena ia pea kuopau keu feinga ke masila ange 'a e fkkaukau kuo fkfekiki'i ke 'oua 'e le'o ua atu ki ho'omou fanongo. ko e taimi tonga moe kele'a 'oku nau fkfekiki kinautolu. kae hange kiate au ko e kikihi eni ia fkongo. ka 'e fai e feinga ke fkhoko ho'o fk'amu ke 'oua 'e le'o ua e talanoa he 'oku kei mahu'inga 'a hono kikihi'i ke 'ilo ki he me'a 'oku tonu pea mo hala.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: samipami
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 7:07 PM
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?]


 Kataki pe Kau tama kau ki'ii hua noa atu ,   Kuo mo a'u kihe konga ta'eoli taha 'o'emau lau tasilisili , "KOE FAKAFEKIKI".. koe a'u pe potalanoa kihe fakafekiki pea kuo tu'u ia he le'o ua... Mou kataki 'oua temo  fakafekiki,,

iki

unread,
Apr 21, 2009, 6:14:49 AM4/21/09
to tasil...@googlegroups.com
 


 Kataki pe Kau tama kau ki'ii hua noa atu ,   Kuo mo a'u kihe konga ta'eoli taha 'o'emau lau tasilisili , "KOE FAKAFEKIKI".. koe a'u pe potalanoa kihe fakafekiki pea kuo tu'u ia he le'o ua... Mou kataki 'oua temo  fakafekiki,,


'Oku 'ikai koe TAIMI TONGA 'eni, pe koe KELE'A ke fai ai ha fakafekiki pe kohai 'oku tonu pe hala.......mo 'ofa mai he fofonga 'o Fakapulia he kuo ne 'osi kole atu.. 

Pea koe taha, hangehnage kuo 'asi e feinga pe kohai "oku "tonu" 'ene faka'uhinga,,, kuou kole atu tokanga'ii na'a toe 'osi si'o tau fale he matuku lolotonga 'etau nofo he "fe'inasi'aki [ a'usia].. Koe me'a ia 'oku mo'oni, 'ae talanoa'ii e a'usia 'oku tau ma'u, pea fakaneifua'aki ha ki'ii veesi meihe tohitapu...

---------------------
sami masi'i 'ofa atu aa 'o lea atu he 'oku ke mo'oni koe ...kuo kii fakaninimo...'ouaa ha ha ...ko hotau fale ni 'oku 'ikai ke 'iai ha tonu ia mo ha hala he 'oku taki taha nofo pee mo 'ene tui pea mo 'ene a'usia 'ikai koaa sami....kaekehe ko e kii liii mai pee pea fe'ungaa aa ai 'isa ka ko e mata poo lotu atu pee foki eni ia ee.

toutai laulaupeaalu

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Apr 21, 2009, 7:20:40 AM4/21/09
to tasil...@googlegroups.com
Melo,
 
Kataki pe 'ohonoa atu ai pe mo au mo e poupou atu au kia Sami. Hange kia te au 'oku tatau pe ho'omo le'oua he tau'aki fusi e ongo fu'u mui'i maea pea mo e taimi 'oku ke fa'a fakasisina ai e kia e pusi. 'Oku ongo tonu ia kia koe he ko e fo'i filo pe 'e taha 'oku ke fai hono fusi pea 'asinga ai ko 'ene ofi ki ho me'a fanongo. Kapau teke tukuange mai 'a e ongo 'o ho'o fo'i filotaha kene poupou ki he ngaahi me'a lea tokoni ko e fakamafana atu. 'Oku 'ikai ai ke fepaki 'a e ongo ke fakatupu le'oua ka 'oku ne 'omi 'a e ongo harmony.
Tou

--- On Tue, 4/21/09, sfaupula <sk...@bigpond.com> wrote:
From: sfaupula <sk...@bigpond.com>
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?]
To: tasil...@googlegroups.com
Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 2:55 AM

malo fkongo pea 'oku mo'oni, mo'oni 'aupito ho'o lau. ko e akonaki mahu'inga ena ia pea kuopau keu feinga ke masila ange 'a e fkkaukau kuo fkfekiki'i ke 'oua 'e le'o ua atu ki ho'omou fanongo. ko e taimi tonga moe kele'a 'oku nau fkfekiki kinautolu. kae hange kiate au ko e kikihi eni ia fkongo. ka 'e fai e feinga ke fkhoko ho'o fk'amu ke 'oua 'e le'o ua e talanoa he 'oku kei mahu'inga 'a hono kikihi'i ke 'ilo ki he me'a 'oku tonu pea mo hala.
 
-~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---


sfaupula

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Apr 21, 2009, 7:53:23 AM4/21/09
to tasilisili
masi'i moatunu tame'a - kuo penisoni foki e moatunu ia 'i tele'a e! - 'oku ke fefehake? hahahahahewheh! koe akoako foki ia 'oku pehe, he ko'etau ako vau foki ne faii. ko e 'uhinga pe foki e filo taha ko e ongo raggae 'etau vau ne faii. hahahehewh! 'oua teke tokanga koe ki he ongo le'o taha atu 'etau me'a, he 'oku taha au taha 'a ilueli pea 89 leva ai e ongo.
 
'oleva ange! ko ho'omou fktonutonu mai koena, 'oku 'uhinga ia ko e tonutaha ena ia 'oku mou fktonutonu mai 'akiii. 'a ia ko e tonutaha leva 'a e feinga ke le'olelei ka e hala ha fo'i mo'oni. pe ko e tonutaha 'a e lahi e fanga ki'i mo'oni neongo 'enau fesitu'a'aki? faingata'a e me'a ia ko ia masi'i ta'okete he  'oku 'ikai ko e lotu lelei hotau 'eiki 'a e fiema'u ke le'olelei, ka ko e fiema'u e faith seeking truth. heheahaha! 'ofa atu pea ke 'eva mai ki darwin he tutuku. hahahaheheh.
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 9:20 PM
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?]

Melo,
 
Kataki pe 'ohonoa atu ai pe mo au mo e poupou atu au kia Sami. Hange kia te au 'oku tatau pe ho'omo le'oua he tau'aki fusi e ongo fu'u mui'i maea pea mo e taimi 'oku ke fa'a fakasisina ai e kia e pusi. 'Oku ongo tonu ia kia koe he ko e fo'i filo pe 'e taha 'oku ke fai hono fusi pea 'asinga ai ko 'ene ofi ki ho me'a fanongo. Kapau teke tukuange mai 'a e ongo 'o ho'o fo'i filotaha kene poupou ki he ngaahi me'a lea tokoni ko e fakamafana atu. 'Oku 'ikai ai ke fepaki 'a e ongo ke fakatupu le'oua ka 'oku ne 'omi 'a e ongo harmony.
Tou

--- On Tue, 4/21/09, sfaupula <sk...@bigpond.com> wrote:
From: sfaupula <sk...@bigpond.com>
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?]
To: tasil...@googlegroups.com
Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 2:55 AM

malo fkongo pea 'oku mo'oni, mo'oni 'aupito ho'o lau. ko e akonaki mahu'inga ena ia pea kuopau keu feinga ke masila ange 'a e fkkaukau kuo fkfekiki'i ke 'oua 'e le'o ua atu ki ho'omou fanongo. ko e taimi tonga moe kele'a 'oku nau fkfekiki kinautolu. kae hange kiate au ko e kikihi eni ia fkongo. ka 'e fai e feinga ke fkhoko ho'o fk'amu ke 'oua 'e le'o ua e talanoa he 'oku kei mahu'inga 'a hono kikihi'i ke 'ilo ki he me'a 'oku tonu pea mo hala.

-~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---



sfaupula

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Apr 21, 2009, 9:24:50 AM4/21/09
to tasilisili
mou kataki fkmolemole ka e ki'i fkma'ala'ala atu e me'a koeni. pea ka hili ia pea mou toki hoko atu ai pe 'i he feohi 'o e le'olelei pea mo taha. hahaheh!
 
ko e me'a koeni 'oku tau fai 'i faleni 'o fekau'aki mo e fktonulea ki he tohitapu, other people's posts, etc.,, 'oku 'i ai hono tu'unga fk'efika (moral implication) 'i he anga 'eku fkkaukau. (and i apologise to any whom i have misread their posts). pea 'oku makatu'unga ia 'i he fkkaukau - "DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU".
 
kapau 'oku tau fktonulea ha fa'ahinga tohi 'a ha taha, we are dealing with other people's own ideas that belongs to them and not us. ko ia ai, 'oku taau ke tau matu'aki tokanga 'aupito 'i he'etau fktonulea, pe 'oku tonu ko aa pe 'ikai 'etau ma'u, he ko e konga ia 'ete 'oange 'a e honor and respect to the other. on the other hand, if we do not take care to understand what the other has intented to say, thus we say something other than what was intented, we are simply disrepecting, and are inconsiderate of the other.
 
ko e 'uhinga ia 'oku ongo fkfekiki atu ai 'etau me'aa, pea mou kataki fkmolemole.
 
if you had carefully read my post, ko e me'a 'oku ou feinga atu ai kia ilueli, ke ne kataki 'o fktokanga'i 'oku 'ikai ke 'eke'i 'e sisu ia 'a e tu'unga ngaue 'o e folofola 'i he konga ko ia 'ia sione. to say that the argument in jn 5:1-47 (39) is about jesus' conclusion that scripture is only a witness to himself, is an outright disrespect to jn and jesus, especially when jn had set the textual parameters in which we can interpret this text. yes, i fully agree with ilueli that in this passage jesus/john had pointed out how scripture is a witness to him. however, there's a huge difference between scripture as witness to christ and scripture as only a witness to christ.
 
mou kataki fkmolemole, ka teu hanga 'e au 'o lohiaki'i au pea mo ta'e fk'apa'apa'i 'a e author and the supreme author of scripture, 'o kapau teu pehe 'oku tonu fktoloua pe 'a e ongo fkkaukau koeni he text 'a sn. the only way that both can be right ko hono tatala e tohi ni meia sne, 'o pule'i hono 'uhinga 'e he tokotaha 'oku ne lau 'a e tohi ni. maybe this is how some of you will work with this text, but that's not my cup of tea. he 'oku lava ia ai ke pule'i pe kitautolu 'e ha fa'ahinga taha pe 'oku ne 'i ha tu'unga ma'olunga 'i he lotu. he ko e me'a pe ko ee 'oku ne pehe 'oku tonu kiate ia, ko ia ia 'oku taau ketau muimui ki ai. ka 'oka tuku e mafai, ki he tonu moe hala, ke talamai 'e he author, pea 'oku 'ikai ke pule ha taha ma'olunga pe poto, ka e pule 'a e tokotaha 'oku 'a'ana 'a e fkmatala.  
 
ko ia ai, mou kataki fkmolemole he 'oku ongo le'o ua pe 'a e talanoa ko e 'ikai keu loto ke te pule'i (abuse and molest) fa'iteliha e 'uhinga 'a e tokotaha 'oku ha'ana 'a e tohi. mou kataki pe but that's my position and no one should force me to disrepect the other.
 
kae hoko atu aa e fktonutonu ia e tame'a ke le'o lelei. hahehaehhihihahe <>><<>

Lousiale Uasike

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Apr 21, 2009, 3:12:28 PM4/21/09
to tasil...@googlegroups.com
--- On Tue, 4/21/09, samipami <sami...@bigpond.com> wrote:. . . Kataki pe Kau tama kau ki'ii hua noa atu ,   Kuo mo a'u kihe konga ta'eoli taha 'o'emau lau tasilisili , "KOE FAKAFEKIKI".. koe a'u pe potalanoa kihe fakafekiki pea kuo tu'u ia he le'o ua... Mou kataki 'oua temo  fakafekiki, . . .
*********************************************************************
kuo tau toki situ'a mei he kosipeli 'o e sapate mo e fakamahino 'e Sione 'a e lahi e ngaahi ngaue mana na'e fai 'e Sisu kuo 'ikai hiki ('e he author) he tohi ni (text) - ka ko e ngaahi me'a pe kuo hiki, kuo hiki koe'uhi ke mou tui.
 
Hange ko ho'o lave sami, fai 'ena fekihiaki he 'ulu'itohi ko e "Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?]" - pea hange kuo 'ikai lau 'a ia 'e tui pe 'ikai tui ('a e hearer / reader). He na'e 'osi fai 'a e felangalanga'i he fakakaukau tatau he ngaahi tasilisili 'o e ngaahi ta'u kimu'a atu - 'o fai ai hotau fakakoloa'i e "world of the author"; "world of the text" and "world of the reader/interpreter" ki hono 'ilo'aki 'a e "meaning" of the "written word".
 
Ko e ngaahi fekihiaki 'o e ngaahi kuonga, na'e iku pe 'o 'i ai e kau followers - pe kau tui nai ki he founga 'o e lau mo e faka'uhinga'i 'o e tohi - hange ko e lau 'a e 'evangelio. Pea kapau 'e iku atu pe 'a e fekihiaki ko 'eni ia sami 'o hange ko e hiva faikava ki he pea mo e laione - pea mo'oni ho'o ongo'i - - -
 
kae malo 'ena ma'u ivi he fevahevahe'ai 'ena ngaahi fo'i pepa - pea ko e tokoni lahi ia ma'ae tama ako.

Sepesi

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Apr 21, 2009, 7:10:04 PM4/21/09
to tasil...@googlegroups.com, Lotopoha Jeruel

Sami, mou kataki 'oua 'e ta'ofi pehe'i e talanoa 'a Lotopoha mo Veni kae
tuku pe he 'oku 'iai pe si'a kau lautohi 'oku fakalongolongo pe mo lau.

malo.
takamuli.
---------------- '

Nau Taitusi 'Ahosivi

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Apr 21, 2009, 7:45:22 PM4/21/09
to tasil...@googlegroups.com

Takamuli:

Sami, mou kataki 'oua 'e ta'ofi pehe'i e talanoa 'a Lotopoha mo Veni kae
tuku pe he 'oku 'iai pe si'a kau lautohi 'oku fakalongolongo pe mo lau.
---------------

Poupou atu ai Takamuli. Tuku pe tepile ia 'a Veni mo Lotopoha ke 'ataa he ko
e malo 'ena feime'a tokoni ke tau lave ai. Kataki koe Sami 'o vakai atu e
ngaahi tepile ko 'ena 'oku kai vesitapolo 'ata'ataa pe ke fe'unga ia mo e
fkholo. Ko e fiofio ngako mai 'a e tepile 'a Veni mo Lotopoha 'e fe'unga ia
mo e tuku inu kava eee!!!

moe 'ofa
Nau

sfaupula

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Apr 21, 2009, 8:19:39 PM4/21/09
to tasil...@googlegroups.com
malo mu'a lou e kolosi moe fkma'opo'opo. ka 'e toe fkkoloa ange ka ke ka tofa atu 'e koe 'a e hala ki he faikehekehe mo e fetokoni'aki 'o e ngaahi founga koena. he 'oku tu'u pe foki e ngaahi founga koena mo 'enau takitaha claim. ko fe 'oku ke tu'u ai, etc...? he ko e 'ulu ia 'o e tepile koeni, kataki pe lou, 'o fktatau ki he supiesi 'oku ma fananga ai mo ilueli.

"Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?] as we interpret jn 5:1-47.

 


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samipami

unread,
Apr 22, 2009, 3:28:21 AM4/22/09
to tasil...@googlegroups.com, sfaupula

---- sfaupula wrote:
> malo fkongo pea 'oku mo'oni, mo'oni 'aupito ho'o lau. ko e akonaki mahu'inga ena ia pea kuopau keu feinga ke masila ange 'a e fkkaukau kuo fkfekiki'i ke 'oua 'e le'o ua atu ki ho'omou fanongo. ko e taimi tonga moe kele'a 'oku nau fkfekiki kinautolu. kae hange kiate au ko e kikihi eni ia fkongo. ka 'e fai e feinga ke fkhoko ho'o fk'amu ke 'oua 'e le'o ua e talanoa he 'oku kei mahu'inga 'a hono kikihi'i ke 'ilo ki he me'a 'oku tonu pea mo hala.
 -------------------------------------------------------------
Poupou atu Veni, pea fe'unga e mahino ko'ena, moe potalanoa- ihe Lotu-lelei 'oku tau taukave'ii.. Kamo Kataki pe mo Lotopoha 'ohoko atu aa ho'omo potalanoa.. Toki mahino 'eni kiate au, ko ho'omo Potalanoa koe "Discuss" not Debate/ Dispute ", pea mahino leva kiate au, koe natula 'ena 'oe "talanga-'oe - fekumi - fakateolosia" kuo pau ke vakaii 'e ngaahi angle pe 'oku nau kainga pe ikai... 

Hange foki ko'eku lave kimu'a tau neu fa'a muimui mai pe ho'omo tu'a pea 'oho vale kuou vakai atu kuomo tu'u 'o  tau'aki tekevakavaka, ta koee kohomo hela'iaa pe kau pehee 'e au temo tau-fusi 'ulu eeeee,,, 'oua e kata...

Fakamolemole atu , Takamuli, Nau, Lousiale moe kau tasilisili, koe anga pe foki ia eku vakai, ka 'oku tau fiefia pe he kei ma'u ivi 'ae Kau Tangta ni, ke fai mai e lavelave he tohi.. Ka koe fakamanatu atu pe ongo tama , koe lesoni fakauike kemo ki'ii malolo mai kiai ha taimi 'o faka'inasi mai a'ki e ngaahi fu'u me'a na..

mo manatu'i pe 'oku tau-kei-kau-pee ,  he koe Paenga ni, 'oku tau feohi ai.

sami.

sfaupula

unread,
Apr 22, 2009, 4:12:17 AM4/22/09
to tasil...@googlegroups.com
fkongo 'oku 'ikai ha me'a 'e kovi ho'o fktokanga pea 'oku mo'oni na'a tukumai e fkfekiki, moe kikihi ka e faai atu ia he kikiiiii. mahalo ne 'osi a'u atu ia ki he kekeee e! hahahheheah!
 
----- Original Message -----
From: samipami
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 5:28 PM
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?]


Fatai Slender

unread,
Apr 22, 2009, 9:38:13 AM4/22/09
to tasil...@googlegroups.com
from: Fatai
22/4/09
 
Veni, Lotopoha, Semisi Kava mo e kau fakafekikii hoko atu pe ho'omou usuu he koau ia ko 'eku fakaava hake pe 'a e tasilisili 'o sio ki homou hingoa. Ko 'eku 'uluaki me'a pe ia 'oku fai ko e delete. Peau toki fili pe 'a e email 'oku ou fie lau. 'Oku ou tui 'oku 'iai pe ni'ihi 'oku tatau moau. He 'oku kehekehe pe 'etau fiema'u mo 'etau manako. Pea ko e me'a tau'ataina pe ia 'a e tokotaha koeha e me'a 'oku ne fielau.
 
From: sk...@bigpond.com
To: tasil...@googlegroups.com

Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Meaning of Scriptures - author or text itself [or both?]
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:55:24 +1000
Kataki pe Kau tama kau ki'ii hua noa atu ,   Kuo mo a'u kihe konga ta'eoli taha 'o'emau lau tasilisili , "KOE FAKAFEKIKI".. koe a'u pe potalanoa kihe fakafekiki pea kuo tu'u ia he le'o ua... Mou kataki 'oua temo  fakafekiki,,
 </FONT

ke...@post.com

unread,
Apr 23, 2009, 5:31:19 PM4/23/09
to tasil...@googlegroups.com
Lotopoha:

> *1.* Fkpulia ko e tu'ulotoloto ko ena neu 'uhinga kiai na'e 'IKAI 'uhinga ia
> kuou TANAKI atu ha PULE 'e taha makehe ia mei he ngaahi poutefito 'o e NGAUE
> FK-HERMENUTIC. Ka ko e READERS/INTERPETERS 'o e lolotonga ni kuopau ke ne
> hanga 'e ia 'o PUNIPUNI ha ngaahi me'a fkefklea pe fa'ahinga fklea 'o e
> tohitapu 'aia 'oku 'asi fepakipaki pe ngali fihi nai etc.,

---

Malie e langa mai e fakakaukau Lotopoha. Pea 'oku ou poupou atu kapau ko ho'o taukave eni mei he Iser[ism].

loke

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Sione 'Atupuha Koloti

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Apr 23, 2009, 6:56:40 PM4/23/09
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loto,

'oku nonga pe matu'a katolika loma ia, ko e patele pe ia 'oku ninimo? ngali 'oku 'ikai kenau misi kinautolu ki he hea 'i he tohitapu, ko e patele pe ia 'oku kai fakahake mo pesipesi mafahiua.

loto you & your point of argument are two of the legacies of  reformation (pehe 'eau ko ho'o fakafu'ia seeks to initiate another revolutions) sai pe kae ui pe ko e deformation rev.

'oua e tuku fai pe tau hoka ke 'aonga 'emau siini. sai pe ko fakapulia 'ena ke ne fakapalangi'i mai ho'omo fakapilitania.

'ofa atu.
koloti
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