Saliote kihe Hilifakikalauni

[Taniela Sila]

'Oku 'osi sasala e talanoa 'oku 'omi e saliote mei Pilitania ne Ha'ele
ai 'a Kuini Salote he 'uha 'i Pilitania ke ha'ele holo ai e tama he
hilifaki kalauni. Ka 'oku kei fakalelei'i 'i NZ 'oku ofiofi fu'u
fakamole 'aupito hono fakalelei'i.'oku sai ia ketau ki'i sio ai leva
he ki'i saliote koia.

[Sepesi]

-------------------------------

Malo hono 'omai, ka e to e pe ke too ha'uha pea ke 'afio ai pe Tama
Tu'i(tapu mo ia )kae kakato e talanoa 'o e ha'ele'anga 'o e Kuini
'ofa'anga 'o e 'otu Tonga.

Sepesi.

[Sione Sitaina Tukia]

Fefe masi'i e Hoosi [tulou] na'a ne toho e Saliote ke vaki'i moia na'a 'oku kei mo'ui ke 'omai ke tau sio kiai.....pea ka 'ikai pea fei mo feinga'i mai ha Hoosi [tuluo] mei Ha'apai he 'oku kei lele kiai e vaka....na'a lava mai e saliote ia kae 'ikai ha monumanu ia ke toho holo....ha...haa...

--
SioneSitaina Tukia

[sfaupula]

masi'i sitaina 'oku ke 'ilo'i pe kuo 'ikai kei 'asi holo e fanga monumanu ia koeni he foi'oene2 ka ke feinga pe ke kumi mai mei ai! ne 'osi talaatu ko aa ha taha kuo nau 'osi kotoa kinautolu 'o nofo fale he taimi ni! kuo nau poto nautolu he teuteu - telekava, kosi 'ulu, tui su, valivali mo tui saketi uku he taimi ni. vakai'i pe ki tahi he kuo nau fai 'enautolu e me'a ko e toutai ko e kalasi atu! mou kataki pe ka ko e fanongo talanoa pe eni 'i he kau sulu tautonu 'i pale2...ahahahahahaha

[tino tahitu'a]

Ko e me'a kotoa pe 'oku ou lave ki ai ko e TOHITAPU
pe. Oku 'ikai ko ha me'a 'a e Tongan Crusader ka ko e
me'a 'a e TOHITAPU.
Ko FOLOFOLA KO E LEA MAI IA 'A E 'OTUA

...Oku lave 'a Sione ki he 'i mu'a 'a FOLOFOLA...

SIONE 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word
was with God, and the Word was God.

Mahu'inga mo'oni ko e FOLOFOLA(Word) ta ko ee ko e
'Otua pe ia. Ka 'oku li 'a e Tohitapu 'i ho'omou
'apii...Ko e 'Otua ia oku ke li 'i 'api. Ka 'oku 'ikai
ke ke lau mo ako ki ai. Ta 'oku 'ikai ke ke ako'i 'e
koe 'a e 'Otua.

Ta na'e 'i mu'a pe 'a e FOLOFOLA(Word)-ia he ko e
'Otua 'a Folofola...

Sio ki he ngaahi veesi ko 'eni 'ia Senesi..

Senesi 1:3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and
there was light.

Senesi 1:6 Then God said, "Let there be an expanse in
the midst of the waters, and let it separate the
waters from the waters."

Senesi 1:9 Then God said, "Let the waters below the
heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry
land appear"; and it was so.

Senesi 1:11 Then God said, "Let the earth sprout
vegetation: plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on
the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in
them"; and it was so.

Senesi 1:14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the
expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the
night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and
for days and years;

Senesi 1:20 Then God said, "Let the waters teem with
swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above
the earth in the open expanse of the heavens."

KOTOKOTOA 'ENA KO E NGAAHI: WORD
Senesi 1:3 Then God said....
Senesi 1:6 Then God said....
Senesi 1:9 Then God said....
Senesi 1:11 Then God said....
Senesi 1:14 Then God said.....
Senesi 1:20 Then God said....

NA'E FOLOFOLA PEA HOKO...Ko hai leva na'e tokoni ki
hono fa'u 'o Mamani??????????Ko e tali ki aii ko WORD
Ko Word na'a ne tokoni ki hono fa'u 'o mamani.

Sio ki he mo'oni'i me'a ko 'eni....

SIONE 1:14
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we
saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the
Father, full of grace and truth.

Io si'oku kaunga ako ko e kau pilikimi 'o e
fononga'anga NA'E HIFO 'A WORD ko eeee na'e kau 'i
hono fa'u 'o mamani ko si'ene fie feohi mo kitautolu.

TA NA'E 'I LOTO LANGI PE 'A SISU FAKATAHA MO E 'OTUA
'O FA'U 'A MAMANI. Ko FOLOFOLA IA

Amen?

Just From A Tongan Crusader For Christ

We must be more than a Hero, Warrior or a Conqueror
for we are soldier of Christ...

__________________________________________________
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[sfaupula]

tokanga tino he ko e fu'u sili ena 'o sione tomasi!!! ka 'oku malie 'a e fifili ke tau talanoa ai pea 'e lelei 'o ka tau talanoa fklelei pe mo talanoa mahino.

--

----- Original Message -----

From: Lotopoha Jeruel

To: tasil...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 11:47 PM

Subject: [tasilisili] Re: FOLOFOLA 'A E 'OTUA

ko e me'a fakafiefia ia ko 'etau hao mai pea 'oku taau ke tau fakafeta'i. malo 'etau toe ma'u e faingamalie ni. unlock ange mu'a kau ki'i laka atu he...!

 

tino tahitu'a 'oku ou koloa'ia he ngaahi vela kuo vahe mai na, ka 'oku ou ki'i fihi he konga si'i ho'o fakamatala, ko ia 'oku ou kole ke ke fakamaama mai. faofao ange mu'a ho'o lave ki he TOHITAPU (written document??) mo e FOLOFOLA (WORD - PERSON??) (Sione 1:1-5). Ko ho'o pehe koee 'oku li'aki e 'Otua (TOHITAPU) 'i 'api, 'oku 'ikai mahino ia kiate au. Kataki tokoni mai ai tino tahitu'a.

 

'ofa atu mo e lotu,

lotopoha

 

[Sepesi]

On Fri, 2008-04-11 at 20:34 -0700, tino tahitu'a wrote:

> Mahu'inga mo'oni ko e FOLOFOLA(Word) ta ko ee ko e
> 'Otua pe ia. Ka 'oku li 'a e Tohitapu 'i ho'omou
> 'apii...Ko e 'Otua ia oku ke li 'i 'api. Ka 'oku 'ikai
> ke ke lau mo ako ki ai. Ta 'oku 'ikai ke ke ako'i 'e
> koe 'a e 'Otua.

-------------------------------------

Malo Tino,Ko e pole ia kiate au 'a 'eku vakai atu 'oku ke to'a fe'unga
ke fehangahangai mo e paenga ni mo mamani foki 'i ho Ui. 'Oku 'ikai ha
me'a fo'ou teke fokotu'u pea 'oku lolotonga fai pe he'e ngaahi Siasi 'a
e fakatokanga tatau, ka koho'o tu'u tokotaha 'o falala ki he 'Eiki 'oku
fai ai 'a e fiefia.

'Oku ke fakatokanga mai foki ke 'oua 'e li'ekina 'a e Folofola 'a e
'Otua, malie ia !
KO e 'ikai lau he'ikai fie 'ako'i e 'Otua ki he'ete mo'ui, pea 'e fefe
ai kete to e ako'i ha mo'ui kehe ?.

talamonu atu he pole 'oku ke fai.
Sepesi.
-------------------------------------------

[sfaupula]

kataki lotopoha ko e fkhua pe ne fai atu pea ko e me'a 'oku fokotu'u mai 'e tino 'oku ala mo'oni 'i he tafa'aki 'e taha pea 'oku ala fehalaaki 'i he tafa'aki 'e taha. teu ki'i lave nounou atu pe kae toki tokoni mai 'a tino ke fkmahino mai 'ene fkkaukau.

 

ko e pehe ko ee ko e 'otua e tohitapu 'oku fehalaaki ia ka ko e pehe ko ee ko e 'otua 'oku lea mai 'i he tohitapu 'oku ala malava pe ai ketau pehe 'oku tau 'ilo meihe tohitapu e will moe purpose 'a e 'otua. 'i he fkkaukau ko ia 'oku malava pe ai ke tau pehe ko e mafai 'o e 'otua 'oku fke'a 'i he tohitapu pea ko e tali mo ta'etali e folofola (divive inspired and human written document 'a e 'otua) ko 'etau fai ia ki he LIVING GOD. 'oku 'iai e kakai (liberal theologians - temple, dulles) 'oku nau tali e fkkaukau koeni 'aki 'enau pehe ko e written words ko e extension ia 'o e 'otua in speech and written modes of revelation.

 

'oku ou tui he 'ikai lava he'e ki'i konga nounou ia koeni ke tali ho'o fehu'i, ka 'e fkfiefia 'oka hoko eni ko ha me'a ke fklanga ai ha sustainable conversation ki he tafa'aki koeni 'o e revelation.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Lotopoha Jeruel

To: tasil...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 7:05 PM

Subject: [tasilisili] Re: FOLOFOLA 'A E 'OTUA

sfaupula kataki koe 'o tokoni mai kapau 'oku 'iai ha'o ma'u 'au ki ai. Is the Tohitapu a LIVING GOD or it is a written document?  kae'oua 'e holi ke twist around 'eku fakatalanoa kia tino na'a pehe kuo te fakafihi, ka ko 'eku fai ia 'o fakatatau ki he'ene fokotu'u ne fai. he ko e me'a ia 'oku maama mai mei he'ene fakamatala ko e TOHITAPU ko e 'Otua ia 'oku li'aki 'i 'api.

 

lotopoha

 

[tino tahitu'a]

Kataki pe Lotopoha ko e mahino pe ia 'iate au pea 'oku
malava pe ke tau tasilisili ai he 'oku 'ikai ko Sisu
au ko e tangata pe au. 'Oku ou tui ko e 'uhinga pe ia
'e taha na'e fokotu'u ai 'e Tevita Havea mo e kau
tangata he Folofola 'a e paenga ni...

Kaekehe 'e fai pe ha ki'i vavaku mo e mahino 'oku
'iate au pe...

Ko e text ko 'ena 'oku ke 'uhinga ki ai ko eku
fakatonulea ki ai ko e FOLOFOLA ia.....

Ko e FOLOFOLA mo'ui 'oku fa'o 'i he Fotunga 'o ha tohi
pe text. From God...Fakamanava'i 'o ala ki ai e ngaahi
nima 'o e fa'ahinga 'o e tangata 'o
TOHII'I....(Written text)..It is not a text itself to
believer...It is a word. Those words are alive....

Kapau leva 'oku mo'ui pea mahino kiate au 'oku 'ikai
ko ha me'a mate. Ke toe mahino ange ko e Tohitapu 'i
'api 'oku fakafofonga 'e he Text 'oku 'ikai ko ha me'a
'oku matee...'Oku manava pe ia. 'Oku hili pe ia hoo
funga tepile 'oku mamanava pe ia. Ko e tui mo'oni ia
'a'aku.

Kapau te u tutu(burn) ha tohi 'o kehe ia mei he
Tohitapu, ko 'eku tutu(burn) pe 'e au 'a e me'a 'oku
mate, pea he 'ikai ke hoko ha me'a ia kiate au pe te u
ifi'aki 'o takai'aki ha'aku fo'i pooti pe tapaka Tonga
hano lau'i peesi...Ka ka faifai pea u fai pehee ki he
TOHITAPU 'e 'i ai e me'a 'e hoko kiate au....Why? He
'oku mo'ui pea 'oku ou tui leva mo mahamahalo ko e
'Otua ia.

Ko e mahu'inga ko ee 'o e lili pe ha me'i suka 'i 'api
'oku si'isi'i pe ia pea ka 'ikai ha TOHITAPU 'i
'api..Then KUO MOLE HO'O MA'ANGA NGAKO...

Ko e tui pe ia 'a e Tongan Crusader For Christ.

Otua Langilangi mo ma'a
Ta u hiki hono huafa 'ai ke ma'olunga taha
Ke tau tala ai hono NAAUNAU'IA...

Just From A Tongan Crusader For Christ

____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

[tino tahitu'a]

Sepesi Wrote:

Malo Tino,Ko e pole ia kiate au 'a 'eku vakai atu
'oku ke to'a fe'unga
ke fehangahangai mo e paenga ni mo mamani foki 'i ho
Ui. 'Oku 'ikai ha
me'a fo'ou teke fokotu'u pea 'oku lolotonga fai pe
he'e ngaahi Siasi 'a
e fakatokanga tatau, ka koho'o tu'u tokotaha 'o
falala ki he 'Eiki 'oku
fai ai 'a e fiefia.

'Oku ke fakatokanga mai foki ke 'oua 'e li'ekina 'a
e Folofola 'a e
'Otua, malie ia !
KO e 'ikai lau he'ikai fie 'ako'i e 'Otua ki he'ete
mo'ui, pea 'e fefe
ai kete to e ako'i ha mo'ui kehe ?.

talamonu atu he pole 'oku ke fai.
Sepesi.
-------------------------------------------

Sepesi 'i ho'o fakalea 'oku ne tala ai 'a e fiefia
hoku loto. Ko e mo'oni e mo'oni he oku a'u pe 'o
kapekape mai ha fa'ahinga kiate au mo lau 'eku fie
lotu mo tukuhifo au koe'uhi ko 'eku fa'a humu ka 'oku
'ikai ke u tokoto ai he 'oku tui ko e process pe ia
hono Sanctify si'eku mo'ui vaivaii.
'Oku 'ikai ke puli pea unga 'iate au 'a e ngaahi
tapuaki 'oku tapuaki'i 'aki au 'e he 'Otua fakaengaue,
fakaefamili pea 'isa na'a pehee kuo te heuha tapuaki
ka 'oku ou 'ilo'ilo pau o e ui pe 'eni kiate au pea
'oku 'ikai ke u fakavaivai ai he 'oku ou mata toufeiva
'i he'ene tapuaki he 'aho mo e po...

Ko e me'a pe ke 'oua 'e ngalo 'iate au..KE 'AVE MA'U
PE 'A E LANGILANGI MA'AE 'OTUA

Tu'a'ofa atu
JUST A TCFC....

[tino tahitu'a]

Sepesi Wrote:

Malo Tino,Ko e pole ia kiate au 'a 'eku vakai atu
'oku ke to'a fe'unga
ke fehangahangai mo e paenga ni mo mamani foki 'i ho
Ui. 'Oku 'ikai ha
me'a fo'ou teke fokotu'u pea 'oku lolotonga fai pe
he'e ngaahi Siasi 'a
e fakatokanga tatau, ka koho'o tu'u tokotaha 'o
falala ki he 'Eiki 'oku
fai ai 'a e fiefia.

'Oku ke fakatokanga mai foki ke 'oua 'e li'ekina 'a
e Folofola 'a e
'Otua, malie ia !
KO e 'ikai lau he'ikai fie 'ako'i e 'Otua ki he'ete
mo'ui, pea 'e fefe
ai kete to e ako'i ha mo'ui kehe ?.

talamonu atu he pole 'oku ke fai.
Sepesi.
-------------------------------------------

[sfaupula]

mo kataki pe he fkhelekeu koeni,,,,,

 

'e malava nai ke tau pehe ko e fkmo'oni koeni 'a e folofola kia sisu ko e lea mai ia 'a e 'otua 'o fekau'aki mo sisu 'i he'ene folofola (FM)? 'i he mohenga 'o e fo'i talanoa koeni 'oku fkmo'oni'i 'e sisu 'a hono mafai ke ngaue fai fkmo'ui he sapate 'aki 'ene ngaahi lea 'oku ne fktatau ai ia moe 'otua (v.18). 'ikai ko ia pe, ka 'oku toe pehee foki 'e sisu ko hono tu'unga 'otua 'oku fkmo'oni ki ai 'a e tamai.

 

ko e mohenga eni 'oku mahu'inga 'i hono fehu'i pe ko e lau ko aa eni 'a sisu ki he ha? 'oku hanga nai heni 'e sisu 'o fksi'isi'i e mafai 'o e folofola, pe ko e lea ia 'oku mo'ui (hange ko e me'a 'oku tokanga ki ai 'a tina), ka ne hiki hake 'a e tu'unga fkmo'oni PE 'o e folofola? 'ikai, ko e tu'unga mafai 'o e folofola 'oku hiki'i heni 'e sisu, he 'oku tu'u ia 'i he tokotaha 'oku lea mai ai - in this case god's own testimony about christ in the old testament (cf. isaiah 60-65 with v.36).

 

yes, scripture here is a testimony, but it's god's own testimony about christ.

 

ko e palopalema e kau falesi ko 'enau pehe ko e lao 'oku ma'u ai e mo'ui - 'i hono tauhi e lao. scripture (ot) is not the issue here. it's the pharisees failure to believe in christ.

 

kataki pe he kau noa atu, ka ko e ki'i konga me'a eni 'oku fai ai e fkninimo pea 'e hoko homo talanoa ko ha fkmasila 'atamai mo tokoni kia au.

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Lotopoha Jeruel

To: tasil...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 10:47 PM

Subject: [tasilisili] Re: FOLOFOLA 'A E 'OTUA -Lotopoha

'oku ou fakafeta'i tino ki he 'Otua 'i ho'o tali mai 'eku fehu'i, pea 'oku fakafiefia ia. ko e me'a ne u fifili atu ai au tino kuo ma'u ia pea kuo ke 'omai hangatonu. pea 'oku malie foki.

 

kaetuku pe mu'a ke u kau atu he lafo. pea 'oku 'ikai ko 'eku debate ka ko 'eku vahevahe atu pe he kaveinga tatau. ko hai 'oku tonu pe hala? 'oku 'ikai ko 'eku poini ia.

 

ko e anga eni e vakavakai atu 'a e 'tuma ko kita' ki he konga 'o e kaveinga (TOHITAPU). ko e tohi tatau pe (kosipeli 'a Sione) 'oku ne toe tokoni ki he'etau potalanoa ki he (Ww -WORDwords - Ff -FOLOFOLA folofola), fakatonulea pe ia 'a'aku. Sione vahe 5 'oku fakamatala ai ki he Authority 'o Sisu (WORD) mo e Tu'unga 'o e TOHITAPU (words). Fakatatau kia Sione  ko e TOHITAPU (words or written documents) ko e "fakamo'oni" pe ia kia FOLOFOLA (WORD PE SISU) 5:39 -40. Life is in Jesus rather than in the SCRIPTURE. Hange 'oku ou ongo'i 'e au heni ko e tokanga 'a Sione 'oku 'ikai ko e TOHITAPU ka ko e me'a pe tokotaha 'oku TUHU KI AI E TOHITPAU. 'Ikai fakapapau'i, kataki tino toe tokoni mai ange.

 

'ofa atu mo e lotu,

lotopoha.

[sfaupula]

'oku malie ho'o fktalanoa lotopoha pea tuku pe keu kau atu 'aki eni:

 

it is a big claim to say that jesus is here pointing to whole of scripture when speaking to the pharisees. the usage of scripture in the new testament could either mean the whole, of parts of, the written texts according to friberg and miller. to determine its usage we must consider the context and any other information that has a bearing on the text.

 

let me qualify what that means. was jesus saying something which the pharisees understood to refer to the whole of scripture or parts of scripture? i think the latter, cause the pharisee according to the rabbinic tractate pirqe avot (the sayings of the fathers) the phrisees assumed (when approaching the law from their hermeneutical system) life is gain from observing the law, not scripture as a whole. consider the following quotes which refers to how the pharisees hinged their theology of salvation on the law, but not necessarily on scripture as a whole.

 

pirqe avot 2:8, "he who has acquired the words of the law has acquired for himself the life of the world to come"; pirqe avot 6:7, "great is the law for it gives to those who practice it life in this world and in the world to come."  

 

mahalo 'oku mahino pe 'a e faingata'a ke tautau he veesi koeni e fkkaukau ko e whole of scripture 'oku 'uhinga ki ai 'a sisu. pea 'i he maama pe ko ia 'oku ki'i faingata'a fk-exegetically ke tau pehe 'oku hanga heni 'e sisu 'o construct a dichotomy between himself and the words of scriptures. i maintain that christ is directly attacking the pharisees for their misunderstanding of scripture, not their trust in scripture.

 

'oku 'ikai keu pehe ko e tonu eni ka 'oku ou pehe 'oku faingata'a 'aupito ke tautau he veesi koeni e fkkaukau ko e whole of scripture ko e witness PE kia sisu.

 

'e mafao ange 'a e talanoa he me'a ni 'oka fai ha sio ki he rest of scripture pea mo 'ene lau ki he god speaking authoritatively, or not, in his words (bible).

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Lotopoha Jeruel

To: tasil...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 10:10 PM

Subject: [tasilisili] Re: FOLOFOLA 'A E 'OTUA -Lotopoha

malie sfaupula, tuku ke u toe ki'i lele 'a kaiha'a atu pe...

 

'oku mo'oni e fakatalanoa kuo ke fai, ko e tokanga 'a sisu ki he 'ikai tui ange 'a e kau falesi kiate ia. ko e 'uhinga ne fakakaukau e fa'ahinga ko ia ia 'oku "TU'U MO MA'U e mo'ui he tohitpau. 'aia ko e ngaue pe fatongia 'o e tohitapu ko e "TUHU" (direct) ki he TOKOTAHA 'oku 'iai, meiai, mo ma'u ai e mo'ui (KO AU...). 

 

ko sione ai pe 'oku ne fakamatala mahino ko e FETONGI 'o e TOKOTAHA (Sisu) na'e, pea 'oku TUHU ki ai e tohitapu ko LAUMALIE MA'ONI'ONI.

 

Ko eni e fakalea 'a Sione 5:39-40, "You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they testify on my behalf (NRSV)". 'oku ou pehe 'e au sfaupula ko e "meaning of what has written and what pass down through the scripture" is being authorised according to what Jesus say here (and even the whole srcipture at all). I can possibly say in according to tthis text, "stop thinking that life is in the TOHITAPU but the TOHITAPU is pointing to WHOM life is from. That means Jesus was differentiating his position and roles in contrast with the TOHITAPU. Due to this differentiation, I suggest Jesus was decreasing the authority of the scripture.

[sfaupula]

ko e fifili eni 'e taha (pe tolu!). kapau ko e tohitapu ko e witness (fkmo'oni) pe kia/ma'a sisu, ko e fkmo'oni 'a hai? tangata pe, pe ko e 'otua? kapau ko e fkmo'oni 'a e tangata pe, ko e ha nai ha 'uhinga lelei ke tau falala ai ki ha lau 'aha tangata? kapau ko e fkmo'oni 'a e 'otua, 'e anga fefe ha'a tau faikehekehe'i 'e divine revelation meihe human contribution to the production of the bible?

 

mahalo 'e tokoni ka mahino 'oku ma'u 'a e mo'ui 'ia sisu pe kae 'ikai ko e tohitapu pea 'oku 'ikai ke claim ha taha ia (na'a mo e fktalanoa 'a tino) ha me'a pehe. ko e issue, pe ko e tohitapu ko e authoritative living words of god (divine revelation), pe ko e human written documents ABOUT god/christ/holyspirit ONLY?

 

mahalo 'e ala tokoni pe eni ki he 'etau talanoa...

[sfaupula]

malo faifekau e fktalanoa pea 'oku mo'oni e me'a 'oku ke tokanga ki ai, na'a faifai pea lotu e tangata ki ha tohi! kae tuku mu'a ke fai ha feinga ke mahino ange 'a e natula 'o e fekita 'a folofola (written texts [scripture]) mo e 'otua.

 

mahalo ko e taha e ngaahi me'a 'oku tukuaki'i 'aki e kau kalisitiane hange ko kimautolu koeni 'oku piki ki he fkkaukau 'oku 'i he folofola 'a e mafai 'o e 'otua, ko e lau 'oku pehe kuo mau hiki'i e tohitapu ki ha tu'unga kuo hoko ia 'o 'otua pea pulia ai e 'otua 'oku ha 'i he folofola. 'ikai ko e 'otua 'oku mahu'inga, kae 'ikai ko e ngaahi fkmatala kau kiate ia?

 

'oku ou tui 'oku fehalaaki e talatalaaki koeni, he 'oku 'ikai tui ha taha ia ko e 'otua e folofola. ko e me'a 'oku tu'u ai e kau evangelicals (a commonly held belief amongst evangelicals, despite minor differences in other matters) ko e fkkaukau 'oku pehe, 'oku taau ke fk'apa'apa'i e contents 'o e tohitapu 'o tu'unga 'i he mahino ko e tohi meihe 'otua, pea ko e lea mai eni 'a e 'otua.

 

he 'ikai teu lave heni ki he ngaahi fkkaukau 'oku felave'i moe issue kau ki he tohitapu, (ie. canonicity, inspiration, inerrancy, etc) neongo 'e toki fkkau mai 'a mui ange, he ko e me'a 'oku fai ki ai e tokanga henii, ko e fkkaukau ko ia "pe 'oku lotu ko aa 'a e kalisitiane ki he tohitapu ka e tukuange 'a e 'otua 'o e tohitapu 'i he taimi 'oku ne fkmamafa'i ai 'a e mafai 'o e 'otua 'i he tohitapu." ko 'eku tali ki he fifili koeni ko e "'IKAI".

 

consider the way we use language and the inseparable connection between ourselves and the language we use. ko 'eku tohi atu koeni 'oku ou tui 'oku mahino pe 'a e kehekehe 'a e ngaahi lea (instrument) 'oku ou ngaue atu 'akii pea mo au. ka 'i he taimi tatau pe, 'oku faingata'a ke ke faikehekehe'i au (sender) mo e ngaahi lea 'oku ou ngaue atu 'aki (instrument), he ko e lea pe tohi 'a'aku.

 

ki'i fktata:

kapau ko 'eku tohi koeni ko 'eku tala atu ne fai 'etau lotu he 'aho ni 'i fale kalapu he 3pm. 'oku ou tui 'e 'ikai ke fktefito ho'o tui pe ta'e tui mai, 'i ha fkkaukau ko e ngaahi lea pe eni kae 'ikai ko au tonu. you can never plausibly say, "you did not believe my words, because they were not me." ko ho'o tali pe ta'e tali 'eku fkmatala ko ho'o tali pe ta'etali ia 'eku lea atu 'A'AKU. so it is in the case of the bible.

 

'i he fuakava motu'a mo e fuakava fo'ou, 'oku fke'a ai e fkkaukau 'oku mau tu'u ai, he 'oku fekau 'e he 'otua ketau fk'apa'apa'i 'ene ngaahi lea 'o hange ia ko 'etau fai ia ki ai.

 

(eg)

siosiua 22:5 - but carefully obey the commands and instructions moses the lord’s servant gave you. love the lord your god, follow all his instructions, obey his commands, be loyal to him, and serve him with all your heart and being!”

 

teut.30:2 - then if you and your descendants turn to the lord your god and obey him with your whole mind and being just as I am commanding you today...

 

'ia hepelu 4:12 'oku equate ai e function of the words of god with god - "for the word of god is living and active and sharper than any double-edged sword, piercing even to the point of dividing soul from spirit, and joints from marrow; it is able to judge the desires and thoughts of the heart."

 

tanaki atu ki heni 'a maake 8:38 - "for if anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the son of man will also be ashamed of him when he comes in the glory of his father with the holy angels.”

 

ko e taha e ngaahi me'a 'oku mahu'inga ke tau fktokanga'i heni - kapau 'oku lotu e evangelicals ki he lea (text, words of god) kae 'ikai ko 'ene lotu ki he 'otua, 'i he taimi 'oku ne fkmamafa'i ai e mafai 'o e tohitapu (words of god), pea 'oku taau ke tau tali na'e lotu mo e kau hiki tohi pea mo sisu ki he (words, not god) he 'oku nau fktatau 'i he ngaahi veesi 'i 'olunga 'a e mafai 'o e 'otua ki he ngaahi words of god.

 

mahalo 'oku mahino pe 'a e fkhoha'a ni pea ko e fktatau ki he fkkaukau ko eni 'oku faingata'a fau ke faikehekehe'i e tama 'oku lea mai pea moe me'a 'oku fkfou mai ai 'ene lea, 'oku ou pehe 'oku taau ke tau toe fkkaukau leleiange ki he tu'unga 'o e folofola 'i he anga 'etau ako, lotu, akonaki, fktonutonu, malanga, valoki, etc... .

 

'ikai ko e tali mo ta'etali 'ene ngaahi folofola ko 'etau fai ia kia IA?

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Lotopoha Jeruel

To: tasil...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 12:06 AM

Subject: [tasilisili] Re: FOLOFOLA 'A E 'OTUA -Lotopoha

'oku mo'oni 'aupito pea mahino e fifili sfaupula, ka ko eni e TAHA 'o e anga 'eku sio ki he TOHITAPU mo e 'OTUA (sisu, lm, tamai).

 

Ko 'eku pipiki he tu'unga 'o e TOHITPAU ko e fakamo'oni ki he MO'ONI (sisu), 'oku 'ikai 'uhinga ia 'oku 'ikai ha'ane kaunga ki hano reveal 'o e 'Otua. Ka 'oku ou tokanga au pe 'oku AUTHORITY tatau e written documents ko ia mo e me'a (Sisu) 'oku talanoa ki ai, pe 'oku na MAFAI TATAU pe? Hange kiate au 'oku 'take' 'e he kau Kalisitiane tokolahi e AUTHORITY OF THE SCRIPTURE 'o tatau pea mo e Authority 'o Sisu. To me, if the Scripture has a similar authority with what Jesus (God) has, then there is no doubt to claim the TOHITAPU as God. Then we will end up with "Father, Son, Holy Spirit and Scripture."

[sfaupula]

malo faifekau e fkmo'ui mai e talanoa. kae tuku mu'a ke fai ha feinga atu he fkkaukau 'o e afo 'o e fkmanava'i 'o e folofola...

 

mahalo ko e fehu'i - pe 'oku afo tatau ko aa e mafai 'o e ngaahi konga 'o e tohitapu (ttp) 'oku mahino ko e ngaahi lea tonu 'a e 'otua pea mo e toenga 'o e tohitapu? "" 'ikai ko e konga pe 'oku ha mahino 'i he tp ko e ngaahi lea tonu 'a e 'otua pea ko e toenga leva ko e ngaahi fkmatala ia 'o kau ki he 'otua moe ngaahi lea 'a e kakai ki he 'otua (eg. saame) mo e ngaahi lotu kehekehe?

 

masi'i lotopoha ko e fo'i faingata'a eni 'oku fekuki moe kau liberal theologians he 'oku fa'a ngalo ma'u pe ketau vakai pe 'oku anga fefe 'a e fkkaukau 'a e fuakava fo'ou (ff) ki he fuakava motu'a (fm).

 

'oku mahino 'ia loma (1:2; 3:2) 'oku fkkaukau 'a paula ko e ngaahi tohi he fm ko e ngaahi fo'i folofola 'a e 'otua. (ko e fo'ilea ko ia ko e 'oracle' 'ia loma 3:2, 'oku tali 'e he tokolahi, 'o fktatau ki he context, 'oku 'uhinga ia ki he katoa 'o e fm). 'a ia 'oku 'ikai ke faikehekehe'i 'e paula ia e ngaahi lea tonu 'a e 'otua mei he toenga 'o e fm. na'a mo sisu, 'oku mahino mai mei he 'ene quote e fkmatala (either editorial or interpretive comment) 'a e fa'u tohi 'ia senesi 2:24, 'ia matiu 19:4-6, 'a e 'ikai ke ne faikehekehe'i e mafai 'o e ngaahi lea tonu 'a e 'otua mei he ngaahi editorial or interpretive comments 'a e fa'utohi.

 

'ikai ko e lau 'a sisu 'ia matiu 19:4-6 ko 'ene feinga ke tali 'e he kau falesi ko e lau eni 'a e 'otua? 'oku anga fefe leva heni 'a e hoko e editorial or interpretive comment 'a e author ko e lau 'a e 'otua? (this is a rhetorical question by the way!) 'oku mahino mo'oni heni 'a e tali 'e sisu mo paula ko e fm 'iate ia kotoa ko e folofola 'a e 'otua. ko hai kitautolu ketau faikehekehe'i e editorial or interpretive comment mei he ngaahi lea tonu 'a e 'otua?

 

kapau te tau vakai kia hepelu 4:7 'oku pehe ai 'e he fa'utohi ko e lea 'a tevita 'ia saame 95:7 'o kau ki he 'otua ko e lea pe ia 'a e 'otua. 'ia loma 9:17 'oku mahino mai 'a e 'ikai ke faikehekehe'i 'e paula e lau 'a e 'otua mei he ttp [fm]. what god said in exodus 9:16 is call scripture by paul in romans 9:17.

 

in light of the above examples, it is unequivocal that the practice of the new testament was to treat the whole of the ot as the words of god. human authors and divine authors are both recognized as speakers or writers of god's words.

 

kapau te tau vakai ki he ngaahi tohi 'a paula 'oku mahino 'ia 2 pita 3:16 'a e mafai tatau 'a 'ene ngaahi tohi moe toenga e tohitapu (fm) 'i he pehe 'e pita 'oku langa'i 'ekinautolu 'oku nau mio'i e ngaahi tohi 'a paula ha fk'auha mo'o kinautolu.

 

mahalo 'oku mahino pe mei he ngaahi fkkaukau kuou lave ki ai 'a e 'ikai ke faikehekehe'i 'i he fuakava fo'ou 'a e ngaahi lea pe tohi 'oku fai 'ehe tangata 'i he tohitapu pea moe afo 'o e mafai 'o e ngaahi lea tonu 'a e 'otua 'i he tohitapu. 'i he maama ko ia, mahalo ko e fehu'i, koeha 'oku tau feinga ai kitautolu ke faikehekehe'i?

 

teu toki hoko atu masi'i lotopoha ki he natula 'o e me'a ko e communication in context he 'oku deal ia moe fkkaukau ko ia 'oku 'ikai fakamanava'i e fakamatala 'oku pehe " na'e lele e fu'u kakai...; na'e fihia e sipi tangata he vao...; na'e inu e sipi he vaitafe...etc, he ko e pu'i e taha... kae mahalo pe 'e mahino pe konga heni, he 'oku 'ikai afo kehe 'a e ngaahi lea tonu mei he ngaahi fkmatala kehe... toki hoko atu...

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Lotopoha Jeruel

To: tasil...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 12:27 PM

Subject: [tasilisili] Re: FOLOFOLA 'A E 'OTUA -Lotopoha

malie sfaupula pea ho'ataa malie, kau hoko atu mu'a...

 

'e lava pe keu pehe, 'oku 'IAI E NGAAHI LEA 'oku hiki he TOHITAPU kapau te u "say no" ki ai, it does not means that I am saying no to God. Ko e taha ia 'uhinga 'o e tokanga 'iate au. 'Oku ou tui 'oku lave'i pe 'e koe. Pea ko e TAHA ia e 'UIHNGA ko ee neu pehe ai 'e au, 'oku ki'i safe ange ke "pehe ko e authoritative 'o e TOHITAPU, 'oku 'ikai ko e written documents ka ko e MEANINGS he 'oku dependent in the guide and inspire by the HOLY SPIRIT. 'Oku ou kau au he aware ki he ngaahi "limitations" mo e "mistranslations" and even "misinterpretation" etc, 'o e TOHITAPU. He kuo huu mai e ngaahi approach kehekehe mei tu'a 'o criticize e TOHITAPU fakatatau ki he me'a 'oku hiki ai.  'Oku 'ilo pea tali 'e he kau lotu tautautefito kia kimoutolu kau ako tohitapu 'a e limitations mo e 'asi 'ae ngaahi tonounou kehekehe he tohitapu koe'uhi he ko e tangata pe e kakai ne nau hiki e ngaahi tohi ko ia.

 

'Oku 'iai e ngaahi lea ai ko e "akonaki" ka ko e outcome ia 'o e interpretations 'a e writer pea 'iai mo e ngaahi lea ai ko quote hangatonu mai ko e lea 'a e 'Otua pe Sisu. Pea 'oku fonu e ngaahi lea ai ko e fakamtala pe ia 'a e taha fa'utohi kae'um'aa e ngaahi lea 'a e kakai kehe ka ko e kau Character nautolu he talanoa.

 

Sfaupula ko e text 'oku 'ilo lahi taha 'e he kau lotu kalisitiane ko SIONE 1:1-5, 14 pea mo 2TIMOTE 3:16-17 pea kau ai mo ia 'ia Senesi. 'Oku lahi e fihi he pehe "Ko e Potu Folofola Kotoa Pe Kuo Fakamanava'i..." 'Oku mahino 'a Sione ko SISU ia (1:1-5,14) pea ko e 'uhinga 'a Paula ki he FM. 'Omai e lau 'a Sisu (1:1-5.14) ko e FF ia 'a e 'oku ma'u'aki 'e he kakai he lolotonga ni, kau ai mo e ngaahi akonaki 'a e kau fa'u 'Ipiseli. Ko e taimi 'oku palopalema ai 'a e taimi ko ee 'oku kofukofu'i pehe'i mai ai e fakalea. He 'e fakakaukau e kakai ni'ihi ia (majority ko e ordinary people) 'oku fakamanava'i e fakamatala 'oku pehe " na'e lele e fu'u kakai...; na'e fihia e sipi tangata he vao...; na'e inu e sipi he vaitafe...etc. 'Oku hange kiate au 'oku mo'ua heni e kakai Tonga tokolahi he 'oku nau pehe ke 'oua 'e toe ako'i mo faka'uhinga'i e folofola na'a fakalahi mo fakasi'isi'i.

 

Ko 'eku sio ki he TOHITAPU ko e ngaahi level kehekehe of interpretations outcome 'oku 'iai. Pea ko ia even it is claiming to be the self communicate of God to the whole creation, ka 'oku deals mo e "MEANINGS of that ACTION" 'o better than what has written itself.

 

Pea ko e issue na'e fokotu'u ko e "li'aki e TOHITAPU 'i 'api, ko e li'aki ia e 'OTUA". A ia 'oku relate e fa'ahinga fakalea ko eni ki he "TU'UNGA 'O E TOHITAPU mo 'ene felave'i mo e 'OTUA (hange pe ko ia 'oku ke talanoa mai ai), pea toe pukemai ai mo e fa'ahinga taukave fakaako ko eni ko e 'AFIO E 'OTUA HE POTU KOTOA PE (Omnipresent).

[sfaupula]

kataki pe lotopoha e fuoloa e fu'u fo'i pu'i koeni, kae hoko atu...

 

ko e taimi ko ee 'oku tau fili ai e ngaahi lea 'oku fkmanava'i pe 'ikai fkmanava'i ko e taimi ia 'oku hoko ai e inspiration ko e response 'a e tangata (toko taha 'oku ne lau 'a e tohi) kae 'ikai ko e characteristic pe 'o e text 'iate ia 'oku inspired.

 

kaekehe, ko e natula e me'a ko e talanoa (communication) 'oku 'i ai ma'u pe 'a e mohenga (context) 'o e fkmatala pea ka tu'u toko taha e mohenga 'o e fkmatala 'iate ia pe 'o 'ikai ke fononga fktaha moe ngaahi lea 'oku poupou ki hono mahino'i e mohenga 'o e fkmatala, pea 'e 'ikai 'aupito ke mahino e fkmatala pe lea mai, pe lea atu, ia 'a ha taha.

 

hange koeni - ko e mohenga e me'a 'oku ou talanoa ai ko e mafai 'o e 'otua 'i he 'ene folofola (tohitapu), pea ko 'eku feinga ko ee ke mahino e me'a 'oku ou tokanga ki ai, teu ngaue'aki e ngaahi lea kehekehe (sentences) pe literary techniques kehekehe ke fkmahino 'aki e me'a 'oku ou tokanga ki ai. ka 'ikai e ngaahi fo'i lea teu ngaue atu 'aki pea moe anga hono fokotu'utu'u e ngaahi lea ko ia, 'e 'ikai 'aupito ke mahino ki ha taha ia e kokohi koeni 'oku tau fai. for humans to speak effectively and accurately, we must utilise various forms of words, sentences, genres, literary devices, etc. to make our intentions clear. so, it is with the bible. kapau 'e to'o e fanga ki'i konga ia koeni 'o e setesi, - na'e inu e sipi, na'e lele mai e tala fekau, na'e fononga he hala, etc koe'uhi ko e 'etau fkkaukau 'oku 'ikai ke inspired, 'e fu'u fkoli fau ha feinga ia ha taha ke mahino e tohitapu.

 

masi'i lotopoha, ka to'o e fanga ki'i setesi ia ko eni 'oku 'ikai ke tau tali 'oku inspired - mahalo koe'uhi they don't make sense on their own - kou fkpapau atu 'e 'ikai ketau teitei lava 'o mahino'i e ngaahi lea ko ee 'oku tau pehe 'oku inspired.

 

'oku 'i ai e lave 'a sisu 'oku ne fkmahu'inga'i ai e ki'i fo'i mata'itohi si'isi'i taha ko ia ko e 'iota'. (mt.5:18) 'a ia ko e fkkaukau 'oku mahu'inga tatau pe 'a e ki'i mata'i tohi valevale ni moe ngaahi kanomate 'o e folofola 'i hono fkmatala'i e me'a 'oku tokanga mai ki ai 'a e 'otua.

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: sfaupula

To: tasil...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 12:33 PM

Subject: [tasilisili] Re: FOLOFOLA 'A E 'OTUA -Lotopoha

[tino tahitu'a]

Malo sfaupula e fakalanga talanoa...Oku ou tui ko e
me'a kuo ke langa'i ko e Misiteli pe ia 'o e Taha Tolu
Tapu 'a ia ko hono fakakaukaua 'oku 'ikai ke loko
malava 'e he fa'ahinga 'o e tangata ke fakamatala'i pe
faka'atami'i....
Oku tupunga mei ai ha fa'u 'a Nau Saimone...

Na'e 'i ai ha Asitalonoma
Na'a ne fetaulaki mo ha leka 'i hono kuonga
Tuai e kemo 'ene foki kuo Nonga...

Ko e Asitalonoma ko 'eni ko Okusitino pea 'oku te
tauhi hingoa ki ai...

Na'e fononga mai 'i he 'aho 'e taha 'o 'Okusitino pea
na'a ne fakakaukaua 'a e Misiteli 'o e TAHA TOLU TAPU
pea 'i he lolotonga 'o 'ene fononga he matatahi
koe'uhi pe ke havilivili mai e 'ea fo'ou 'o e matatahi
ke tau 'i hono 'atamaii kuo ne fakatokanga'i ha leka
'oku ne 'utu e tahi ki ha'ane ki'i fo'i luo pe he
'one'one...Na'e pehee au'e he 'Asitolonoma ko 'eni...
Ko e ha ho'o me'a 'oku ke feinga ke ke fai...?

Na'e talaange 'e he leka..."Ko 'eku feinga ke 'utu e
tahi ki he ki'i fo'i luo ko 'enii ke 'osi mai ki ai..
Na'e pehee atu 'e he 'Asitalonoma..He 'ikai ke ke lava
ia 'e koe...Tuaiekemo...Kuo pehee ange 'a e
leka...Tatau pe ia mo e me'a ko 'ena 'oku ke
fakakaukau'i...
Na'e tuai e kemo kuo foki ai pe kuo nonga 'a e
Asitalonoma ko 'eni...

Oku ou tui ki ho'o lavee 'e SFaupula...Ka ko e
EQUATION IA HOKU LOTO...

GOD(WORDS) = CHRIST(WORDS) = HOLY SPIRIT(WORDS)

Falute kotoa kinautolu 'e he FOLOFOLA...Pe WORDS..Ko e
ngali fihi ko 'etau ngaue'aki e FOLOFOLA...Ka ko e lea
pe ia ki he ha'a Tu'i...

So to emphasize the point I may say
'OTUA(FOLOFOLA) = KILISITO(FOLOFOLA) = HOLY
SPIRIT(FOLOFOLA)

Just From A Tongan Crusader For Christ

Otua Langilangi 'a hotau 'Otua
'Otua Langilangi mo MA'A
Hiki 'a HONO HUAFA
AI KE MA'OLUNGA TAHAA
KE TALA 'A HONO NAAUNAU'IA...

Amen?

--- sfaupula <sk...@bigpond.com> wrote:

____________________________________________________________________________________

[tino tahitu'a]

Oku 'i ai 'a e ako mei he lave ko 'eni 'a SFaupula pea
malo e fa'a tokoni mo e talanoa maama.
Oku tau tutupu fakaKalisitiane ai mo fa'ofa'o ai ha
me'a 'i hotau kato 'a e ngaahi mahino ko iaa..

ofa atu mo e lotu

tcfc
--- sfaupula <sk...@bigpond.com> wrote:

____________________________________________________________________________________

[sfaupula]

'oku malie 'a e fkkaukau ka teu ki'i lea tu'u atu pe he kau lele ki he me'a 'a e fanau. ko e 'uhinga 'o ha lea pe tohi he'ikai tu'u mavahe mei he instrument oku fkfou mai ai (esp. words written of uttered). to separate the two is to create a false dichotomy, since both cannot stand without the other.

 

we need to seriously consider that meaning can be twisted or forgotten and if we don't have the sourse to return to, then i dare say we will return to darkness... fafa he po'uli...

 

as for the way you have examined my quotatons, i will return to it later. ka 'oku fkfiefia e malava ke sustain e talanoa lotopoha...

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Lotopoha Jeruel

To: tasil...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 11:35 PM

Subject: [tasilisili] Re: FOLOFOLA 'A E 'OTUA -Lotopoha

ko e koto fakafiefia ia ho'o toe 'asi hake tino he 'oku taau pe ke ke kau mai. tuku mu'a keu hoko atu he kia sfaupula pea mahalo na'a lave atu ai pe he 'oku mo vakataha mai...

 

'oku ou fiefia lahi sfaupula ho'o fakatalanoa he 'oku ke 'omi e ngaahi fakamo'oni tohitapu ai. pea 'oku fakalotolahi foki ia. 'oku ou tokanga atu he 'oku mo'oni pe ho'o pehe 'a e 'ataa 'o e ngaahi founga hikitohi kehekehe mo e founga fakafetu'utaki ki hano ngaue'aki 'e ha taha ki hano fakafetu'utaki mai 'o e TOHITAPU.

 

ko e potu folofola ko ia 'oku ne pu'aki hangatonu mai e (Heb. 4:12) e living, sharper and active 'o e word kapau te ke tokanga hifo ki ai hangee ko ho'o fakatalanoa kuo fai ki he "context", 'e 'ikai tu'u 'ataa e veesi 12 mei he veesi 13. he 'oku pehee mai 'e he veesi 13 "And before him no creature is hidden". 'oku small letter 'a e "word" mo e "him" ka 'oku na 'uhinga ki ha "person or someone"(SISU pe 'ALO) but not to any written documents even the TOHITAPU. Therefore to intepret this text (Heb. 4:12), I will be doubt to separate it from being connected with verse 13.

 

ko ho'o lave ko ia ki he konga 'o e malanga 'a Sisu he mo'unga (Mtt 5:18), 'oku malie foki mo ia. ka 'oku ou toe faka'amu pe ke fakamanatu atu ho'o fakatalanoa ki he context. fakatokanga'i ange 'a e (v. 17 - 20) 'it is about LAW and the Prophets in relation with JESUS. Ko e fakahinohino 'a Sisu 'oku ke mo'oni 'oku ne hanga 'o  ngaue'aki e "iota", Gr.(ka ko e "yod" ia in Hebrew alphabet.). 'oku pehee 'e he (veesi 17- 18), Do not think I have come to"abolish" the law or the prophets; ... but "To Fulfill." ...until heaven and earth pass away, "not one letter", not one stroke of a letter... Untill all is Accomplished (NRSV)."( 'a ia ko e fakakakato mo e fai hono kotoa - liliu ia 'a Molitoni). fakahoa ange 'a e ongo veesi ko ena mo e lau 'a lea 'a Sisu he funga Kolosi 'ia Sione 19:30, "...It is finished..."(NRSV) "KUO 'OSI" (Molitoni).

 

Think carefully about this, is it about the "one letter itself" (written one) or it is about the "meaning of that one letter according 'to what it is representing" in the written documents"? Pea 'e toe foki pe ia ai ki he'eku lave kimu'a, still more reliable to say wriiten documents' fucntions as pointing forth to WHOM life is coming from (Jesus/H.S/Father) Sione 5:39. fakatokanga'iange sfaupula 'oku malava ke 'auha e written documents he vela, pe popo etc., ka ko hono "meaning pe fekau" 'e mahu'inga ia mo tolonga 'o lauito'utangata.

 

ko ia sfauplua ko e meaning and function 'a e TOHITAPU 'oku totally dependent in the 'Inspiration mo e Guide' 'a e Holy Spirit.

 

te u ngata he na'a ha'u e pasi...

[sfaupula]

hange ko 'eku lave ki mu'a, 'oku fkfiefia 'a hono fktolonga mai e talanoa ni, he 'oku si'isi'i hono fie talanoa'i e me'a ni he paenga ni. kaekehe, tukumu'a keu ki'i lave atu he....

 

kia hep. 4:12 - 'oku ke mo'oni he fkkaukau ke 'oua na'a fkmavae'i e v.13 mei he v.12 pea na'e 'ikai ko e taumu'a ia 'eku talanoa, he ko e mohenga 'o e talanoa 'ia hepelu vahe 4 ko e feinga 'a e fa'utohi ke fkmahino 'a e mavahe hake 'a e langilangi 'o sisu 'ia mosese (3:1-6). pea makatu'unga 'i he ma'olunga ange 'a e langilangi 'o kalaisi 'ia mosese, 'oku enginaki 'e he fa'utohi e kau lau tohi ke nau fanongo ki hono le'o (le'o 'o sisu; holy spirit) 'aki 'ene quote meihe saame 95:7-11 (ftt.hep.3:7;4:7), telia na'a nau to ai ki he houhau 'o e 'otua 'o hange ko kinautolu ne nau 'ahi'ahi'i e 'otua 'i he toafa. sai, 'oku mahino 'aupito heni 'a e mafai 'o e written text heni, he 'oku 'ikai ke ha mai 'a sisu kiate kinautolu 'i hono sino, ka 'oku lea mai 'i he 'ene folofola ke 'oua 'e fkfefeka e loto 'o e tangata, 'o ka nau fanongo ki ai he 'aho ni. (how will the readers hear jesus' words? will they hear from meanings without words? i think not! it must be through the words of hebrews in which they will hear god's (jesus', holy spirit's) warning.

 

fktatau ki he mohenga 'o e talanoa koeni pea mo e ngaue'aki 'e he fa'utohi e ngaahi lea mei he fuakava motu'a ke fktokanga mo fklotolahi ki he kau lau tohi, 'oku mahino ange ai 'a e fkkaukau 'i he v.12. 'a ia ko e uki 'a e fa'utohi ko 'ene kole ki he kakai hepelu kenau tokanga ke nau hu ki he malolo'anga 'a e 'otua, ka e 'oua na'a to ha taha 'o tatau mo e talangata'a e kakai 'i he toafa (v.11).

 

sai, koeha leva hono 'uhinga 'oku fai ai 'e he fa'utohi e fktokanga koeni? 'oku tali e fehu'i koeni 'e he v.12 'aki e fo'ilea ko ia ko e "he ko e" - "(for)" -  folofola 'a e 'otua... . which words of god? the ones he has quoted, but uttered by david and written down in the ot, from psalm 95, is living and active,... and judges, etc... . i believe the whole of hebrews is also in mind here and although further deliberation is required to point this out, i think my main point is quite clear.

 

ko e me'a ko ee na'a ku tokanga atu au ki ai ko e mamafa tatau 'a e lea ne quote 'e he fa'u tohi pea moe mafai 'o e 'otua, he ko e fk'amu 'a e fa'utohi ke tokanga e kakai 'o fanongo ki he lea mai 'a e 'otua - now, or in the hebrews' own context - in written forms. ko e me'a na'e hiki na'e quote - with the assumption that it was god (holy spirit) speaking through david, but now in written forms - kae 'ikai ko hano present 'o e 'otua 'e he fa'u tohi in body. by quoting from the old testament, the author is stressing the importance of listening to god's words precisely because they are god's words.

 

the connection with v.13 has more to do with the idea of ""warning the readers not to turn from god's words since god knows everything and will judge us"" than it has to do with pointing to jesus speaking about himself. i think it is a far fedged enterprise if our interpretation of the connection betwwen v.12 and v.13 depends on capital and non capital usage of letters.

 

kia mt.5:18 - 'oku mo'oni ko e lau 'a sisu ko 'ene ha'u 'e 'ikai tamate'i ai 'a e lao, ka ko 'ene ha'u ke fkkakato (v.17). pea 'oku ne fkmahino ia 'i he'ene pehe - "lolotonga 'oku te'eki mole 'a e langi mo mamani, 'e 'ikai mole mei he lao ha mata'itohi 'e taha, pe ko ha fo'i kohi, kae 'oua ke fai hono kotoa (v.18).

 

'oku tau 'ilo mei he talanoa 'o e kosipeli, ne fepaki 'a sisu moe kau falesi ko 'ene fai e ngaahi ngaue 'oku ngalingali 'oku 'ikai ke ne toka'i e tohi lao. hange ko 'ene faifkmo'ui he sapate. ko ia, 'oku malie 'a e lau koeni 'a sisu, he 'oku ne fkmahino heni 'a e felave'i 'a 'ene ngaahi akonaki (teachings) pea moe ngaahi fkhinohino 'a e lao. pea ko e me'a 'oku malie 'i he fkmatala ko eni 'a sisu he 'oku 'ikai pehe mai 'a sisu ko e meaning 'oku tokanga ki ai, ke 'oua na'a mole mei he lao, ka ko e 'mata'itohi' pea moe 'fo'i kohi' 'oku tokanga ki ia. simply because the law remains in force to the last 'i'. of course the meaning of the law is significant in respect to jesus' teachings, but to drive a wedge between the letters that forms the meaning and the meaning of the words is as absurd as attempting to proclaim salvation without christ.

 

ko e ki'i fifili pe eni - koeha nai 'oku tau ngau'unu ai mei he denying the whole of the bible as god's authoritative words to only god's direct words as authoritative pea mei ai ki he only the meanings of the words as the authoritative words of god? is it an intellectual difficulty or a spiritual problem in that we only want what we think it's authoritative to us - not god - to have some sway in the way we live? kaekehe, ko e fifili pe... .

 

'oku malie 'a e me'a 'oku ke tokanga ki ai lotopoha, ka 'oku ki'i fktupu fifili 'a ho'o tukuange 'a e toenga 'o 'eku fkmatala, he 'oku fu'u mahino ange 'i he toenga 'eku ngaahi fkmatala 'a e remain (retain) in god's written or uttered words 'a e mafai 'o e 'otua.

 

kaekehe, teu ki'i kalo ki he 'o sio super 14 kae toki hoko atu ki he meaning and authority, and the relationship between the holy spirit and god's words in scriptures.

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Lotopoha Jeruel

To: tasil...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 11:35 PM

Subject: [tasilisili] Re: FOLOFOLA 'A E 'OTUA -Lotopoha

ko e potu folofola ko ia 'oku ne pu'aki hangatonu mai e (Heb. 4:12) e living, sharper and active 'o e word kapau te ke tokanga hifo ki ai hangee ko ho'o fakatalanoa kuo fai ki he "context", 'e 'ikai tu'u 'ataa e veesi 12 mei he veesi 13. he 'oku pehee mai 'e he veesi 13 "And before him no creature is hidden". 'oku small letter 'a e "word" mo e "him" ka 'oku na 'uhinga ki ha "person or someone"(SISU pe 'ALO) but not to any written documents even the TOHITAPU. Therefore to intepret this text (Heb. 4:12), I will be doubt to separate it from being connected with verse 13.

 

ko ho'o lave ko ia ki he konga 'o e malanga 'a Sisu he mo'unga (Mtt 5:18), 'oku malie foki mo ia. ka 'oku ou toe faka'amu pe ke fakamanatu atu ho'o fakatalanoa ki he context. fakatokanga'i ange 'a e (v. 17 - 20) 'it is about LAW and the Prophets in relation with JESUS. Ko e fakahinohino 'a Sisu 'oku ke mo'oni 'oku ne hanga 'o  ngaue'aki e "iota", Gr.(ka ko e "yod" ia in Hebrew alphabet.). 'oku pehee 'e he (veesi 17- 18), Do not think I have come to"abolish" the law or the prophets; ... but "To Fulfill." ...until heaven and earth pass away, "not one letter", not one stroke of a letter... Untill all is Accomplished (NRSV)."( 'a ia ko e fakakakato mo e fai hono kotoa - liliu ia 'a Molitoni). fakahoa ange 'a e ongo veesi ko ena mo e lau 'a lea 'a Sisu he funga Kolosi 'ia Sione 19:30, "...It is finished..."(NRSV) "KUO 'OSI" (Molitoni).

 

Think carefully about this, is it about the "one letter itself" (written one) or it is about the "meaning of that one letter according 'to what it is representing" in the written documents"? Pea 'e toe foki pe ia ai ki he'eku lave kimu'a, still more reliable to say wriiten documents' fucntions as pointing forth to WHOM life is coming from (Jesus/H.S/Father) Sione 5:39. fakatokanga'iange sfaupula 'oku malava ke 'auha e written documents he vela, pe popo etc., ka ko hono "meaning pe fekau" 'e mahu'inga ia mo tolonga 'o lauito'utangata.

 

ko ia sfauplua ko e meaning and function 'a e TOHITAPU 'oku totally dependent in the 'Inspiration mo e Guide' 'a e Holy Spirit.

 

te u ngata he na'a ha'u e pasi...

[sfaupula]

malo lotopoha pea 'oku ou tui 'e tu'u e talanoa 'oka tau nofo hifo ke vakili e ki'i konga tohi 'ia hepelu, pea 'oku tui pe 'e lava ke toki fai mai ha lave ki he toenga e ngaahi konga folofola neu lave atu ai, he 'oku 'ikai ke kapu kotoa 'e he ki'i konga 'ia hepelu ia e me'a 'oku ho'ata maama ange 'i he toenga e ngaahi konga tohi ko ee.

 

ka koeni, 'oku fkfiefia 'a 'etau mahino'i mei he fkmatala 'a hepelu, 'oku mahulu hake 'a sisu. pea ko e fehu'i, koeha ko aa 'oku feinga ai e tohi hepelu ke mahino mai 'oku mahulu hake 'a sisu? 'ikai ko'ene feinga he konga koeni ke tau tokanga ki he feinga mai 'a e 'a e 'otua 'i he folofola ke 'omi 'ene ngaahi tu'utu'uni ketau tali, koe'uhi ko e tu'unga faifkmo'ui 'o sisu? that very form of speech is an aurthoritative act in the sense that it requires our response. that's the nature of god speaking through his words and if we fail (like the israelites) to take heed of his words the consequences will be unpleasent. so, if we reject his words on the basis that we refuse to trust christ as our saviour we are rejecting god himself. if we accept, we are accepting god himself.

 

now, if these words were just a witness to god, i am not oblige to respond to these words as i would if it was god speaking authoritatively to me through his words. simply because they are basically just informations telling me about god, even if it has some kind of meaning - whatever that is!

 

'e ki'i tokoni foki lotopoha 'o kapau 'e ki'i fklika mai e anga 'o e authoritative 'a e tohitapu in the sense that it is a witness to god. (your position)

 

lotopoha, i take it you agree with me on the importance given by jesus to the force of the small letters which make up the law. so, how can we insist that the meaning of the words is what counts but not the letters? this is precisely what i mean by false dichotomy. we recognise the importance of the letters which make up the words, but once we know what the word means we quickly dispense with the letters. getting rid of the letters will leave meaning on unstable grounds.

 

lotopoha, 'oku ou fanongo lelei 'aupito atu ki hono fkmatala pea ka fainga malie pea ke ki'i point out nounou pe 'a e ngaahi tonounou 'o e felave'i e toenga 'o e ngaahi potu folofola neu ngaue 'atu aki pea mo e issue ko'eni 'oku tau talanoa ai. ko e 'ai pe ke 'ilo e ngaahi tafa'aki 'oku matavaivai ai he 'oku 'ikai ko hepelu pe ne ngaue atu 'aki. i think you would agree that heb. and mt. was additional references.

 

ko e me'a foki 'e taha 'oku tonu pe ke fktokanga'i - 'oku 'ikai pea te'eki keu fk'ikai'i e role mo e relationship 'o e laumalie ki he scripture. i agree the hs has a function in illuminating the gospel, but i also maintain that this does not contradict my position in this issue and i hope we will look at it in the course of our discussion.

 

what you insist on is the position taken by karl barth and friends and i do not want to point out their confusion just yet, for we will get there in due times.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Lotopoha Jeruel

To: tasil...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 9:41 PM

Subject: [tasilisili] Re: FOLOFOLA 'A E 'OTUA -Lotopoha

malie sfaupula e lafo kuo fai, ka ko eni te u fakapinepine atu pe...

 

sfaupula ko e mo'oni e fakamatala kuo ke 'ohake ki he "context" he 'oku ho'ataa malie 'ene haa mai he taimi 'oku te laulau hifo ai e TOHITPAU (e.g 3:11e &4:1a). Ka ko e malie 'oku te'eki pe ke toe hekea holo mo hekea mama'o e fakamatala ia 'a e fa'utohi mei he'ene poini tu'ukimu'a ko Kalaisi (MAHULU HAKE 'A KALAISI 'i ha toe TAHA he 'aneafi mo e Kaha'u, 'i mamani mo langi fakatou'osi). Ke toe hekea atu ki he "mafai tatau e TOHITAPU mo e 'OTUA", 'ikai 'aupito, ka 'oku ne nofo pe ki he'ene poini 'o oloolo pe ai ke ngingila pea faka'ofo'ofa.

 

sfaupula pea ko e 'uhinga ia ne 'ikai ke u toe ngaue'aki 'e au e toenga ho'o fakamatala kimu'a, he ne u sio hifo pe au ki ai 'oku lava pe ia ke u talanoa atu pe he ngaahi me'a ne u 'oatu 'o kapu kotoa ai ho'o 'uhinga.

 

Fakatoaknga'i ange ko e foki ki he vahe 3 'o lau mei ai 'o a'u mai ki he vahe 4:12-13 'oku kei ma'u pe 'a eme'a neu tokanga atu ki ai pea toe maamaange foki ia ai.

 

Ko e mata'i tohi pe fo'i kohi 'oku mo'oni ia , ka ko e MAHU'INGA mo e 'UHINGA 'o e ki'i KOHI mo e ki'i MATA'I TOHI ko ia 'a e TOKANGA. He ko hono ma'u, pea 'e lauikuonga ia mo lauito'utangata. Fakakaukau ange, ka "tu'utai e mata'itohi" 'o 'ikai 'uhinga ki ha me'a pe hano mahu'inga pea 'e hangee pe ia "ha me'a 'oku 'ikai ko ha me'a". Kapau 'e 'iai hano "uhinga mo ha mahu'inga" pea ta "ko e me'a" he 'oku 'iai hono "kaveinga mo hono taumu'a". He 'oku mahu'inga mo kakano e fo'i lea koe'uhi ko hono 'uhinga, ka 'oku 'ikai ko e "mata'itohi" 'iate ia pe. Kapau te ke foki ki he lau 'a Sione 5:39-40 te ke fakatokanga'i ai e fakakaukau 'oku ou lave ki ai. Ne mo'umo'ua pe e fa'ahinga ko ia ia he kumi hakili he me'a kuo tohi (TOHITAPU) 'o pehe 'oku 'i loto ai e mo'ui ta'engata. Ka ne 'ikai ke nau tokanga ki he me'a ne 'UHINGA' pe 'TUHU' ki ai e ngaahi lea ko ia.

 

Ko e fifili kuo ke fai, 'oku kei authoritative pe e TOHITAPU ia (not by itself) ka 'oku 'ikai Mafai Tatau mo e 'Otua hangee ko e me'a 'oku feinga ki ai mo tino.

 

ko ia ai sfaupula, te koma hee na'a 'alu e leelue,

'ofa atu mo e lotu

lotopoha.

[sfaupula]

ko e ki’i lau malie ‘a macbeth ki he me’a ko e mo’ui (life) ‘oku pehe ni: ‘it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing’. teu toki lave ki he ‘uhinga ‘o e felave’i e ki’i lau koeni ‘a macbeth pea mo e issue ‘o e biblical authority.

 

‘e konga tolu e lafo atu koeni ‘o kau ki he ongo me’a lalahi ‘e 2 ‘oku ke lave ki ai pea teu fokotu’u atu ha hala ‘oku fk’ilonga’i ‘e he tohitapu ‘o kau ki he mafai ‘o e ‘otua ‘i he tohitapu.

 

1]  teu lave ki he anga e vakai ‘a sisu ki he fuakava motu’a pea teu fktatau ia mo ho’o 'main concern' - 'oku 'ikai mafai tatau e TOHITAPU mo e 'OTUA in any sense, any angle or in any reason at all. 2] teu ki’i sivi’i ho’o lave ki he ngaahi potu folofola neu fokotu’u atu pe ‘oku to tatau ho’o fkmamafa mo e me’a ‘oku fkmamafa’i ‘e he ngaahi konga folofola kuo ke lave’i.

 

kimu’a pea toki fai ha lave ki he ngaahi me’a koeni teu ki’i fokotu’u atu ho’o position ke mahino ange ‘a e ‘ulungaanga e me’a ‘oku ou tokanga ki ai.

 

some modern theologians like yourself do not hold the same view as evangelicals, especially when god’s spoken or written words are being identified with god’s authority. the leading objection of course comes from karl barth and various other theologians (paul tillich, john barton, james barr, william temple and avery dulles just to name a few). barth refutes the proposition for biblical authority in the identified sense, for the bible is not revelation (god) per se. for barth the bible is nothing more than a human document witnessing to revelation (god) (karl barth's doctrine of holy scripture). the ontological claim given to scripture as god’s authoritative words, according to barth, does not square up with the nature of the bible as written texts, for as written texts and a witness about god the bible does not speak in the name of god, nor does it give us the revelatory speech of god.

 

william temple holds a similar view by asserting that god’s revelation in the bible is a revelation of his person and not some form of god speaking. god is not present in his words, but the words point to who god is. in that light, the authority of the bible cannot be viewed ontologically (nature, man and god), since the bible in this sense is not god’s authorial speech, but a presentational form of witness about god.

 

the difficulty for barth and others in accepting god’s words in written forms as authoritative has to do with the question of ‘how can the transcendent god allow sinful beings to participate in the production of revelation?’ according to barth, lotopoha, etc, revelation is the work of god alone and the closest human can participate in god’s self-disclosure is by just being observers from afar. such observation, for liberal theologians, of course is the natural outcome of the production of the bible as a witness to true revelation (god).

 

because barth and others view the bible as a human document that only points to god, the authority of the bible is described in terms of partial active participation on god’s behalf through the bible. under this proposition barth and others have tried to maintain theological integrity by asserting the bible is only authoritative in the sense that god is active through the bible only when a person experience an encounter with god. it means that god’s words can only be authoritative when it is appropriated during a spiritual encounter with god.

 

con't>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[sfaupula]

'oku mahino ko e palopalema 'oku fekuki mo barth, lotopoha, etc, ko e fkkaukau ko e tohitapu ko e folofola mai ia 'a e 'otua ki he tangata. their confusion lies in the connection between god and his words. they rather have god as a transcendent god who only act partially through his words and restrict his revelation to something which only occurred in history. of course there is elements of truths in this claim, for the bible deals with god's actions in the pass, but to view revelation as something which only the biblical document witness to is to make god irrelevant to present situations. in light of this approach to the bible the bible becomes only a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing'.

 

ko e me'a foki 'e taha 'oku ki'i confuse ai 'a barth mo 'ene kau tama ko e 'ulungaanga 'o e me'a ko e communication. they fail to make the connection between the person who speaks and the words spoken by that person. 'oku 'ikai ke fai ha ofo he me'a koeni, he 'oku 'ikai ke tali 'e barth ia 'a e lau 'a paula mo pita ki he mode of inspiration. kaekehe, tuku ke fai ha hoko atu.

 

ko e me'a 'oku mahino 'i he fkkaukau koeni, 'ko e tohitapu ko e fkmatala pe, pe fkmo'oni (tuhu), kia kalaisi. 'oku 'ikai ke loki (loci) e mafai 'o e 'otua 'i he tohi ni. ko e fehu'i leva, 'oku angafefe 'a e vakai 'a sisu ki he fuakava motu'a? 'oku tatau nai e fkkaukau 'a sisu ki he fuakava motu'a pea mo e fkkaukau 'a barth, lotopoha, etc ki he fuakava motu'a (konga 'o e tohitapu)? na'e tali nai 'e sisu ko e divine authoritative words of god 'a e fuakava motu'a? pe na'a ne fkkaukau 'oku 'ikai ko e divine authoritative words of god 'a e fm? kapau 'oku ha 'i he anga e vakai 'a sisu ki he fuakava motu'a ko e fuakava motu'a ko e loki (loci) ia 'o e mafai 'o e 'otua 'i he ngaahi tohi ne hiki, 'oku ou fokotu'u atu e fehu'i koeni - what right do we have in acknowledging him as teacher and lord, if we adopt anything less than jesus' view of the divine character of the written texts?

 

----- Original Message -----

From: sfaupula

To: tasil...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 5:54 PM

Subject: [tasilisili] Re: FOLOFOLA 'A E 'OTUA -Lotopoha

[sfaupula]

'e konga 'e ua 'a e me'a teu tokanga ki ai 'i he fkmatala koeni. 1) teu fkmatala ki he anga e fkkaukau 'a sisu 'oku ha 'i he tohitapu 'o kau ki he divine authoritative character 'o e tohitapu (fm) pea 2) teu tokanga foki ke vakai'i pe 'oku to tatau 'a e fkmamafa 'a sisu moe fkkaukau 'a barth, lotopoha, etc. that is, does jesus view scripture as only a human document witnessing to revelation (god)?

 

in what sense can we say that jesus viewed the old testament as god's divine authoritative words? to put it in simple terms 'jesus accorded divine authority to the ot scriptures.' (accorded is the key word here and i will show that the idea of scripture as only a document witnessing to god does not square up to the way jesus used scripture in the following verses in their context. this is  something i think lotopoha fail to grabble with. rather, lotopoha imposes his own ideas on the texts without explaining how the texts (his or mine) in their own context function to support the idea that they only point us to god).

 

mt. 4:4 - "it is written: man does not live on bread alone, but on 'every word' that comes from the mouth of god."

 

ko e mohenga 'o e veesi koeni ko e talanoa 'o e 'ahi'ahi'i 'o sisu 'i he toafa pea ko e puipuitu'a 'o e me'a 'oku hoko 'i he 'ahi'ahi'i koeni 'o sisu 'oku felave'i ia moe fkkaukau 'o e talanoa 'a e fononga 'a e 'otua mo 'isileli 'i he toafa, mo ne feinga ke ako'i 'a 'isileli kenau 'ofa kiate ia 'aki 'a e kotoa 'o e loto, laumalie moe ivi. (teut.6:5), pea mo fkfalala 'enau mo'ui 'i he'ene ngaahi folofola (i am not differentiating between god and his words here. either is jesus) 'a e 'otua ka e 'ikai ko e mana (ma he toafa) 'a e 'otua.

 

sai, ko e 'ahi'ahi 'a setane v.3 'oku hange ia ha'a ne pehe atu kia sisu ke tafoki mei he 'otua 'o falala ki hono tu'unga ko e 'alo 'o e 'otua, 'o kapau ko e 'alo ia 'o e'otua, koe'uhi kae mato'o atu e faingata'a 'oku ne fekuki mo ia ko e fiekaia. ko e tali 'a sisu ki ai: "kuo tohi, 'oku 'ikai mo'ui 'a e tangata 'i he ma pe, ka 'i he ngaahi folofola kotoa pe 'oku 'alu atu mei he fofonga 'o e 'otua." i think it'is quite clear that jesus utilized scripture in his rebuttal to satan's temptation in the sense that what is written has divine authority, simply for the fact that god's words is written. if he refused the written words of god he will also refuse god himself. jesus does not bypass the written words in order to point us to god. rather, jesus claimed that what was written ought to be taken as god's words.

 

can you see the connection? i don't think you do because you, barth and others will argue that what's important here is the person speaking and not the spoken words. this is not only a nonsensical understanding of the way language function, but it's also a failure to appreciate the force and context of the situation in which jesus applied the quotation from the old testament. the force of the way jesus used the ot and the relationship of the verbal exchange between jesus and satan and the context of this passage will not make sense if we say, according to your approach, that this text was written for the purpose of providing us with mere information about god.

 

ko e me'a 'oku tokanga ki ai 'a sisu 'i he'ene tali kia setane ko'ene feinga ke mahino kia setane 'oku mahu'inga ange 'ene talangofua ki he fekau mo e fkhinohino 'a e 'otua 'i he fuakava motu'a 'i he'ene fiekaia. i will ask you again - can you see the connection between god and his words. the usage of the saying "it is written" by jesus in other parts of the gospels is undeniably held by theologians to denote his concern for the divine characteristics of scriptures.

[sfaupula]

kaekehe, fktatau ki he me'a 'oku mou taukave, is the author only recording this story as a witness to who god is? lets apply your approach to the text by asking "in what sense is this verse or story only a witness to god or jesus?" sure it does say some things about god and it does tell us about satan having a go at jesus. if this is all that is being said in this passage, or the following verse and the one before, how on earth does it say anything meaningful and edification? is it important because jesus told satan that god is somewhat more important then obeying satan? i think not, because not only does the syntactical structure of the sentence - ie. "it is written" is at the fore of the construction and god is at the end of the sentence - not support such interpretation, the nature of the verbal exchanges between jesus and satan uphold the view that jesus was thinking of scripture as god's very words. i think there is more to this usage of the old testament by jesus than just giving us general knowledge about god, because the context is about jesus refusing satan's temptation with scripture. not in the sense that scripture point to god, but because scripture (what is written) is 'every word of god'. the emphasis is on the idea that scripture is god's divine words in written form (folofola 'a e 'otua). why else would he use this part of the old testament to refute satan and not just get rid of him since he has the power to do so?

 

now, the question is that does jesus in this passage identified scripture as the word of god. i believe it does and to deny jesus' accordance of scripture with divine characteristics must be shown otherwise. if scripture is the very word of god what can we say about its authority? if it's less than god's authority, why? if jesus recognized the divine characteristics of scripture while we insist that it does not hold the same authority as god, how on earth can we claim to be his followers?

 

kaekehe, lotopoha teu toki hoko atu kae fai ha feinga ki he ki'i fatongia 'oku tali mai...

[sfaupula]

malo lotopoha pea 'oku ou tui 'oku ke kalofi 'a e tali 'a sisu "it is written". to bypassing parts of this verse allows you to impose you idea, which is not in the text, in to the text. although, as i have said, it does show us some things about god, jesus' main point is not about pointing us or satan to god, but to show satan that scripture has the final authority in the decision he will make.

 

kataki pe lotopoha - if you like it or not your argument has been presented by others before and their confusion is pretty much the same. ko hono 'uhinga he 'oku mou taukave 'oku tuhu pe 'a e folofola kia sisu kae 'ikai ko e folofola tonu mai ia 'a e 'otua. pea tu'unga 'i he fkkaukau ko ia 'oku mou piki mate ai ki hono fk'ikai'i e mafai 'o e 'otua 'i he'ene folofola neongo 'oku mahino pe 'i he folofola 'a e fk'apa'apa'i 'e sisu moe kau ako tu'unga divine charactersistics 'o e folofola.

 

kaekehe, tuku keu ki'i talanoa fktata atu he'ilo na'a mahino ange ia.

 

ko e 'ahi'ahi 'a setane 'oku ha ai 'ene feinga ke to 'a sisu. sai, ko e tali 'a sisu - something you have not included in your exegetical attempt - "kuo tohi" (ko e toenga 'o 'ene tali neu 'osi lave ki ai). 

 

'e ongo tatau e fklea koeni 'a sisu pea moe ki'i fktata koeni: ka tufa atu e guideline ki ha course 'e ho'o faiako pea ko e 'uluaki assignment "ko e fkmatala'i e mafai 'o e tohitapu", pea hili ha ngaahi uike kuo ke toe foki atu ki he faiako 'o talaange

te ke fkmatala'i 'e koe 'a e 'ikai ke 'i ai ha mafai 'o e tohitapu. 'oku 'i ai e kau faiako te nau pehe atu, "koeha e fkhinohino 'a e guide line?' ko e 'uhinga 'enau fai pehee he 'oku nau recognise 'oku loki honau mafai 'i he me'a kuo hiki.

 

ko e taha - ko e konisitutone 'o tonga 'oku fa'o ai e mafai 'o tupou 'uluaki pea ne tali ia mo fkmafai'i 'e he pule'anga ke hoko ko e fkhinohino ki he anga hono fklele 'a e pule'anga. ko e fu'u mafai ko ia 'o tupou moe pule'anga 'oku fa'o ai, he ko e 'uhiga ia 'oku feinga ai 'a e temo ke liliu e konisitutone kae fa'oaki atu ki ai e mafai 'o e kakai.

 

jesus' answer to satan is to a large extent similar to the above exambles. jesus recognised that what "is written" - scripture - has authority over his decision and that is the main point jesus' pointed out to satan. he simply told satan that scripture - "what is written" - has authority over his decision. now, jesus could have easily said, look satan i am god and of course that would solve the problem. would it? but no!!!! he pointed to what god had said in scripture. 

 

it is interesting that you you point out how the spirit was involved in jesus' temptation. this undeniably indicates that the spirit is involved in jesus' rebuttal of satan. he was involved in jesus' decision to point out to satan that scripture - "it is written" - has the authority over his decision.

 

'oku malie ho'o vete 'a teut. 6:2, he ko e konga eni e fekau kia mosese ke ako'i ki 'isileli e ngaahi lao 'a e 'otua (torah) 'i ha nau a'u ki he fonua e tala'ofa. the nature of their relationship were to be framed around what god has given in writings to be put in the ark of the covenant.

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Lotopoha Jeruel

To: tasil...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 1:07 PM

Subject: [tasilisili] Re: FOLOFOLA 'A E 'OTUA -Lotopoha

malie pea too atu, ko hono 'ai ia sfaupula pea 'oku fakakoloa 'aupito ia. kae tuku keu ki'i fakalavelave atu pe he tali'anga pasi.

 

'oku ou kei fakatokanga'i pe 'oku kei hanga pe 'e ho'o ngaahi texts 'o fully support 'a 'eku taukave neongo 'oku ke fakakaukau 'oku 'ikai. He 'oku ou pipiki ki he 'ikai MAFAI TATAU E TOHITAPU MO E 'OTUA. pea 'oku ou faka'amu ke fakahaa kiate koe 'oku 'ikai ke u ngaue atu'aki ha fakakaukau 'a ha kau scholar hangee ko ia kuo ke mention, mole ke mama'o. 'oku ou fokotu'u atu pe 'e au mei he TOHITAPU. hei'ilo koe kapau 'oku tatau ia mo ha taukave 'a ha scholar, kaekehe ke 'oua 'e faulele atu kita ki ai he 'oku te 'ataa 'aupito mei ai.

 

Ko (teut 6:2) "...may fear the Lord your God all the days of your life..."pea mo e (6:20-22) "...when your children ask you in time to come, "What is the meaning of the decrees and the statues and the ordinances that the Lord our God has commanded you"? then you shall say to your children, "We were Pharaoh's slaves in Egypt, but the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand. Check (teut. 6:25).

 

Taumu'a pea faka'amu e konga tohi ia ke tuki mo nonofo e kainga ni ki he TAHA TOFU PE 'A E 'OTUA (6:4-5), pea ko ia pe 'o 'oua 'e toe 'ai hano kakunga pe tatau. ko e founga 'e lava ai ko hono 'keep' e ngaahi me'a kuo ako'i mo tu'utu'ni kiate kinautolu (6:2b, 6-9). hangee ko ia kuo ke lave'i mai 'a e "talangofua". ko ha kakai 'oku lea ngata'a mo kia kekeva pehe ke fai ki ai e me'a kuo lau 'e he ( 6:6-9), ko e discipline of the israelites. 'oku ou faka'amu ke vakai mo (teut 8:3; Ekisoto 16:2-3, 12-14, 35; Lk 4:7 etc.)

 

teut. 8:3

"he humbled you by letting you hunger, then by feeding you with mana, neither you nor your were acquainted, in order to makeyou understand that one does not live by bread alone, but by every word comes from the mouth of the Lord". See (8:5&6), ko e veesi 6 'oku tokanga ki he "keep the commandments of the Lord your God...but in verse 5, it is telling us that this was all about "discipline". sfaupula 'oku 'ikai ko e MO'UI KE KAI PE, KA KE AKO'I KI HE 'ULUNGAANGA TALANGOFUA MO E FAKAONGOONGO KAKATO 'AKI E LOTO FAKAVAIVAI'I MO'ONI. ko hano fakangatangata e LIFE ki he food (bread) pea 'e 'ikai leva 'iai ha'o konga 'imisi'i 'Otua. ko e folofola mei he mouth of God was purposely to Guide, Direct or instruct and discipline the Human beings (israelites). 

 

ko e anga 'eku vakai heni, 'oku kei mahino lelei pe 'a e 'uhinga mo e feinga 'a e fa'utohi ke haa ngingila e me'a pe tokotaha 'oku 'uhinga ki ai e TOHITAPU (fm) (6:2), ko e fakamatala'i 'o e 'OTUA mo e NGAUE KAFAKAFA kuo NE FAI. 

 

fakatokanga'i ange e tali 'ae ngaahi fakamatala ki hono 'ai'ahi'i 'o sisu. 'ia matiu 4:1 it says, "jesus led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted..." 'ia ma'ake 1:12 says, the Spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness. ko luke 4:2 says, "...and led by the Spirit..."

 

ko eni e fakalea ki he tali 'a Sisu (Mt 4:4) "One does not live by bread alone...but by every word that comes from the mouth of God"

 

'Oku 'ikai mo'ui e "tangata" he maa pe,..." to live a physical life, must eat (bread etc.), but to live a spiritual life is to keep God's word... etc." 'oku empower 'e he Holy Spirit 'a e word in order to live a spiritual life. ko e mo'oni e tali 'a Sisu pea pehe ki he lau 'a e fm (teutalonome 8:3), ka 'oku 'uhinga ia ki he mo'ui faka'ulungaanga mo faka-laumalie hangee ko ia kuou 'osi lave ki ai 'i 'olunga.

 

 

 

 

kapau te tau fai ki ho'o lau 'oku MAFAI TATAU PE E TOHITAPU mo e 'Otua, pea ta 'oku taau ke toe vakai'i e FEKAU'I HIFO 'O LAUMALIE MA'ONI'ONI (kosipeli 'a sione; luke &tohi ngaue 2; pea mo e tolu-taha'i-'otua (triune God) etc.

 

ki'i afe hee kau soka maka he kuo lele e pasi ia...

[sfaupula]

malo lotopoha. tuku keu ki'i fokotu'u atu e me'a koeni:

 

i am not denying the fact that the bible in it's historical aspects tell us who god is, for the bible in a sense is the way god accomodates our inability to know anything about him.

 

now, that does not contradict in anyway the argument for the authority of god in scripture. do deny that scripture and jesus  recognised the divine character of the old testament on the ground that the bible is only a document that points us to jesus is to deny jesus' view of scripture (ot) as i have already pointed out. it is also denying god's involement - even the spirit of god, because he works with what scripture says) and communication with us today. of course the passages (esp.mt.4:4) you and i have looked at provide us with information about god, but that does not contradict or deny the fact that jesus accorded to scripture divine characteristic.

 

kaekehe, tuku ke fai ha hoko ki he anga e vakai 'a sisu ki he scripture. jesus recognised scripture (ot) as divine when he referred to it as "the word of god" (mt.19:4a -[haven't you read - {scripture that is}]; mk.7:11-13 [nullify "the word of god" - {scripture that is}] ; jn.10:34 [it is written in your law - {scripture that is}). further, jesus spoke of its (ot) divine inspiration (mk.12:36).

 

ko e me'a foki 'e taha 'oku ha mahino 'ia mt.22:29; lk.24:25 'a e 'ita 'a sisu, koe'uhi ko e 'ikai tui e kakai ki he fkmatala 'a e folofola pea mo nau fkmavahe'i e mafai 'o e 'otua mei he folofola (mt.15:3).

 

of course you will attempt to show me that these passages is only concern with pointing people to god. my response will be yes, they do point us to something about god. but, that does not in anyway what so ever deny the fact that jesus recognised - even in the context of the passages - the divine character of scripture. that fact that jesus referred do the old testament indicates his high view of scripture as authoritative.

 

ko e me'a foki 'e taha neongo 'oku mahino mei he fkmatala 'a e ngaahi kosipeli ko sisu 'oku 'i ai e ivi mo e mafai 'o e 'otua, jesus in no way what so ever opposed his his personal authority to that of scripture. he deferred to its authority 'i he ongo me'a lalahi 'e ua. 'a ia ko 'ene faiako mo 'ene ngaue (mt.12:3-5; 19:4; sn.10:35), pea mo e anga 'ene ngaue fkmisaia (mt.26:24, 53; lk.24:46). 'oku mahino ne model e sisu 'ene ngaue fkmisaia 'o fktatau ki he fkmatala 'a e fuakava motu'a.

 

of course you will attempt to show me that these passages only tells us something about god. my response will be "yes" they do tell us somethings about god. but that does not deny (even in the context of these passages) the fact that jesus recognised scripture as divine.

 

for someone to deny that these passages - even in context - establishes the fact that jesus recognised scripture as divine one must seriously question that person's method of interpretation. 'ikai ke ngata ai, kapau 'oku feinga ha taha ke fk mahino 'oku tokanga taha pe 'a e ngaahi potu folofola koeni ke tuhu kia sisu pe ko e 'otua, i think not only that's a very big claim, it is also a result of imposing on the text something that is not the focus of the texts i have put forward and have considered their context in the course of our discussion.

 

lotopoha 'oku mo'oni 'oku talamai 'e he ngaahi potutohi 'oku ta talanoa ai ha ngaahi me'a 'o fekau'aki pea moe 'otua. ka ko ho'o feinga ko ee ke fk'ikai'i 'oku ha mahino 'i he ngaahi potutohi koeni 'a e fk'apa'apa'i 'e sisu e fm koe'uhi ko e lau ia 'a e 'otua, 'oku 'ikai ke poupou ki ai e ngaahi potu tohi ia koena kuou fokotu'u mo fkmatala'i mahino atu. these texts clearly show us that jesus accorded scripture with divine characterstics regardless of however you might interpret them. it is undeniable even if you try to show that they only tell us something about god.

 

i will remind you that the idea the bible shows us who god is is not diametrically opposed to the argument that the bible is god's authoritative words because god's authority recites in his words.

 

now your claim that the bible is nothing more than a human document which only points us to god is theologically unsound and dangerous, because you have reduced the bible to only a historical document. it restricts god to the past and irrelevent to the present.

 

teu toki hoko atu ki he anga ho'o ngaue 'aki e ngaahi potutohi ke taukave ho'o fkkaukau...

[sfaupula]

tuku keu kamata atu heni peau toki foki ki ho'o ngaahi ngaue atu kimu'a.

 

your claim is that these texts only point us to god and to support your argument you have cited deut.6:2; 8:3. now, what do these verses express in relation to your idea of the bible as only a human document with the purpose of pointing us to god? (something like a street sign i imagine)

 

i argree with you that these texts tells the israelites something about god. but in the context of the whole book of deuteronomy we must consider the location of israel as presented in the beginning of the book (dt.1:1-2). more importantly is where they are heading towards (9:1). the israelites are about to enter the promised land and moses preached to them concerning how they were to live and relate to their god while in the land. now, most of what deuteronomy is concern with is the reciting of god's commands, so the people will know how they are to live according to the will of god. your passages falls under this category.

 

now the way moses presented god's will to the israelites  came in words that required israel to "hear" and obey them, because they are god's words, decrees, statutes, instructions, etc. they were to be careful to follow them, for the blessings and the assurance of taking possession of the land depends on the way they would obey and follow god's commands given to moses in words and to the israelites in words by moses (8:1; 11:8; 12:1). they were to observe and follow god's words given to moses which were then given to the people to follow.

 

sai, 'oku ke fktokanga'i 'a e kei mamafa tatau pe 'a e lea 'a mosese mo e lea 'a e 'otua. 'oku tau 'ilo ne hiki e ngaahi lea koeni 'a mosese ki ha tohi 'oku ui ko teutalonome pea ko e tohi ko ia 'e fktefito (moe toenga e nima'i tohi) ai e mahino'i 'e he kakai e finangalo 'o e 'otua. 'oku mamafa tatau pe 'a e lea 'a e tohi, he 'oku tatau pe ia mo ha lea hangatonu ange (mai) 'a e 'otua kiate kinautolu 'i ha'a nau hu ki he fonua 'o e tala'ofa. god's blessings and curses upon israel depended on the way they would follow his words spoken to them by moses and later documented.

 

lotopoha what i am trying to point out is that the words of god remained authoritative even when spoken by moses or written down in texts - and we know that the ten commandments were written down not only by god, but also by men in later periods.

 

this is what have said:

 

"ko e folofola mei he mouth of God was purposely to Guide, Direct or instruct and discipline the Human beings (israelites)."

 

i think you have missed the point here and fail to appreciate the connecting between god and his words spoken or given to moses. you do recognise that god's words were to direct and discipline israel, but you fail to realise that if they rejected god's words, they would fall into all sorts of misfortunes. rejecting and obeying god's words is the same as obeying and rejecting god.

 

do you see the connection!!!!!!

 

this is how jesus viewed the ot as he resopnded to satan.

 

if these text were simply to point the israelites to god, they were not required - or us today - to follow them or observe them in any way what so ever, for what moses have said to them becomes nothing more that just informations.

 

do you see the connection!!!

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

 

From: Lotopoha Jeruel

To: tasil...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 1:07 PM

Subject: [tasilisili] Re: FOLOFOLA 'A E 'OTUA -Lotopoha

 

 

Ko (teut 6:2) "...may fear the Lord your God all the days of your life..."pea mo e (6:20-22) "...when your children ask you in time to come, "What is the meaning of the decrees and the statues and the ordinances that the Lord our God has commanded you"? then you shall say to your children, "We were Pharaoh's slaves in Egypt, but the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand. Check (teut. 6:25).

 

Taumu'a pea faka'amu e konga tohi ia ke tuki mo nonofo e kainga ni ki he TAHA TOFU PE 'A E 'OTUA (6:4-5), pea ko ia pe 'o 'oua 'e toe 'ai hano kakunga pe tatau. ko e founga 'e lava ai ko hono 'keep' e ngaahi me'a kuo ako'i mo tu'utu'ni kiate kinautolu (6:2b, 6-9). hangee ko ia kuo ke lave'i mai 'a e "talangofua". ko ha kakai 'oku lea ngata'a mo kia kekeva pehe ke fai ki ai e me'a kuo lau 'e he ( 6:6-9), ko e discipline of the israelites. 'oku ou faka'amu ke vakai mo (teut 8:3; Ekisoto 16:2-3, 12-14, 35; Lk 4:7 etc.)

 

teut. 8:3 "he humbled you by letting you hunger, then by feeding you with mana, neither you nor your were acquainted, in order to makeyou understand that one does not live by bread alone, but by every word comes from the mouth of the Lord". See (8:5&6), ko e veesi 6 'oku tokanga ki he "keep the commandments of the Lord your God...but in verse 5, it is telling us that this was all about "discipline". sfaupula 'oku 'ikai ko e MO'UI KE KAI PE, KA KE AKO'I KI HE 'ULUNGAANGA TALANGOFUA MO E FAKAONGOONGO KAKATO 'AKI E LOTO FAKAVAIVAI'I MO'ONI. ko hano fakangatangata e LIFE ki he food (bread) pea 'e 'ikai leva 'iai ha'o konga 'imisi'i 'Otua. ko e folofola mei he mouth of God was purposely to Guide, Direct or instruct and discipline the Human beings (israelites). 

 

ko e anga 'eku vakai heni, 'oku kei mahino lelei pe 'a e 'uhinga mo e feinga 'a e fa'utohi ke haa ngingila e me'a pe tokotaha 'oku 'uhinga ki ai e TOHITAPU (fm) (6:2), ko e fakamatala'i 'o e 'OTUA mo e NGAUE KAFAKAFA kuo NE FAI. 

 

fakatokanga'i ange e tali 'ae ngaahi fakamatala ki hono 'ai'ahi'i 'o sisu. 'ia matiu 4:1 it says, "jesus led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted..." 'ia ma'ake 1:12 says, the Spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness. ko luke 4:2 says, "...and led by the Spirit..."

 

ko eni e fakalea ki he tali 'a Sisu (Mt 4:4) "One does not live by bread alone...but by every word that comes from the mouth of God"

 

'Oku 'ikai mo'ui e "tangata" he maa pe,..." to live a physical life, must eat (bread etc.), but to live a spiritual life is to keep God's word... etc." 'oku empower 'e he Holy Spirit 'a e word in order to live a spiritual life. ko e mo'oni e tali 'a Sisu pea pehe ki he lau 'a e fm (teutalonome 8:3), ka 'oku 'uhinga ia ki he mo'ui faka'ulungaanga mo faka-laumalie hangee ko ia kuou 'osi lave ki ai 'i 'olunga.

 

kapau te tau fai ki ho'o lau 'oku MAFAI TATAU PE E TOHITAPU mo e 'Otua, pea ta 'oku taau ke toe vakai'i e FEKAU'I HIFO 'O LAUMALIE MA'ONI'ONI (kosipeli 'a sione; luke &tohi ngaue 2; pea mo e tolu-taha'i-'otua (triune God) etc.

 

ki'i afe hee kau soka maka he kuo lele e pasi ia...

'ofa atu mo e lotu,

lotopoha

.

[sfaupula]

hoko atu.

 

kimu'a pea fai ha lave atu ki hono anga ho'o ngaue 'aki e toenga 'o e ngaahi potu folofola koeni kuo ke lave ki ai tuku keu ki'i kamata atu ho'o ngaahi comments koeni:

 

""These texts ('a ee kuo ke pehee ne u li'aki) still are not giving us any clear point or reason to say that God and the TOHITAPU has the same authority. 'Oku authoritative pe 'a e ngaahi 'TALA 'OTUA ' 'a e TOHITAPU ka 'oku 'ikai 'uhinga ia ai kuo MAFAI TATAU E TOHITAPU mo e 'OTUA telia na'a FAA'I'OTUA (4) 'etau me'a (Tamai ,'Alo, LM, mo TOHITAPU).

 

Ko e me'a pe 'oku mahino mei ho'o ngaahi text ko ena ko 'enau fully support what I have been said. check it!

'ikai 'oku lelei 'a e TOHITAPU ke ako'i'aki e kakai ke nau 'ilo, tui, mo mo'ui'aki e me'a 'oku finangalo ki ai e 'Otua 'o tefito he "guide mo e inspiration by the LM", ka 'i he taimi tatau 'oku 'ikai 'OTUA E TOHITAPU PE MAFAI TATAU E TOHITPAU mo e 'OTUA?

 

1. 'Oku 'ikai ko e 'Otua e TOHITAPU pea 'oku 'ikai 'OTUA e TOHITAPU, as I said before (me'a kuo hiki tohi mo lea'aki: written and sayings)

2.God is above and beyond everyone, everything with the inclusion of sayings and writings. (lotopoha)

---------------------------------------------

lotopoha ko e me'a 'oku ke tokanga ki ai heni ko e 'ikai mafai tatau e tt moe 'otua. ka ko e me'a ko ee 'oku ou fktokanga'i 'oku ke fkkaukau 'oku ou claim 'oku tatau 'a e tohitapu mo e 'otua. 'oku ou tui 'oku ke misunderstand the issue of biblical authority. ko e issue - ko e tohitapu ko e folofola ia 'a e 'otua, pea 'oku tu'unga ai 'a hono tali 'e kimautolu koeni 'oku mafai tatau e tt moe 'otua, he ko e folofola mai ia 'a e 'otua.

 

our claim has nothing to do with the bible as god and i have pointed this out before, or neither is it about worshiping the bible. that would be blasphemy. there is a huge different in saying god is the bible than saying the bible has the same authority as god.

 

let me tell you what we mean by authority. we ultimately believe that god alone has all the rights and authority to determine all things in religious matters. god, by virtue of who he is and what he does, has the right to establish all standards and practices in his church and the world. ko e fehu'i leva: 'oku angafefe hono excercise 'e he 'otua hono mafai 'i hono siasi? does he excercise it in a direct fashion? no, we believe that god has delegated that authority by creating the bible through the inspirational work of the holy spirit in human authors. so, because the bible is god's inspired words written by people inspired by the holy spirit, we affirm that the bible carries the same weight god himself would command if he were to speak to us today.

 

now, there is nothing in the above definition to suggest we are saying that the bible is god. the bible for us is god's words and therefore it ought to carry the the same aurthority as god when applied to matters concerning the church and life.

 

to the texts.

----------------------------------

siosiua 22:5 ('ai atu pe ki ai 'e au mo teutalonome 6:6, 17; 10:12). fakalea 'ia sosiua, "Take good care to observe the commandment and instruction that Moses the servant of the Lord commanded you, to love the Lord your God, to walk in all his ways, to keep his commandments, and to hold fast to him, and to serve him with all your heart and all your soul". (lotopoha)

----------------------------------

 

how can you not see that what is being asked here is for israel to observe the commandments and instructions to love god, etc? the emphasis is on observing the words thus being said by god. it is through the words that is israel will come to know how to love god, keep his commandments, etc...

 

this would also apply to deut.30:2; 4:29-30. the idea of observing is to follow and keep what the commandments is about. it is not about what you would suggest - just providing information or pointing to god! it about following what the words says. and what it says is for them to love god, keep his commandment, etc. the verse is about following and observing (muimui ki ai) and not about pointing them to god in the sense that it is merely information. of course god is the object of their obedience, but that depends on them observing and following what god tells them to follow and keep. the commands for them to obey and follow god will not make sense if they did not have god's words to show them how to obey god.

 

--------------------------------------------

3. Hepelu 4:12 (already talk about it)

4. Ma'ake 8:38 ('ai atu mo Mtt. 10:33; Lk 12:9; Mtt 8:20; Mk 13:6 etc 'o ka fiema'u)

ko 'eni e fakalea 'a Ma'ake, "Those who are ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of them the Son of Man will also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the Holy angels". (lotopoha)
-------------------------

 

which part of jesus' words - "me and my words" - does not tell us that christ is here identifying his words as having the same authority as himself? you have done well to underline this part of jesus' words, but you have missed the force of jesus' words here. jesus is pointing out that to be ashamed of him and his words in this sinful generation (including us today) is to invite the wrath of the son of man. if you think carefully, jesus does not differentiates between himself and his words in this verse. if he does i would welcome you explanation.

 

is not jesus putting his words in the same light as himself in his comment? i think he does, because if we today reject and feel ashame to be associated with what he says in the gospels will invite god's wrath upon ourselves.

 

-----------------------------------------

Mahalo pe te ke fiefia, pe te ke fiemalie hono hiki atu e ngaahi potu tohi ne ke 'ohake ke hoko ko e poupou ho'o taukave. 'Oku mahino ho'o feinga mai ke u lave'i e ngaahi me'a ko 'ena 'e 3.

a). commandments and instruction of God through Moses

b). command

c). of me and of my words (Jesus and his teachings etc.) (lotopoha)

--------------------------------------

 

kou pehe keke ki'i lau mu'a 'eku ngaahi fkmatala he 'oku 'ikai ko'eku fkmamafa e ngaahi me'a koena 'i 'olunga. ko 'eku fkmamafa 'a e mahino kia sisu mo e kau fa'u tohi 'a loki 'i he tohitapu e mafai 'o e 'otua, he ko 'ene tohi pea ko 'ene folofola. if you cannot understand what i am saying, then how will we ever understand god's words!

 

---------------------------------------------

Sfaupula kuo ke fakafelave'i ho'o ngaahi text ko ena 'oku ke pehee ne u ta'etokanga ki ai mo e poini 'oku ou piki ki ai pe 'ikai ('ikai mafai tatau e 'Otua mo e TOHITAPU, ka 'oku TUHU ki he TOKOTAHA 'oku 'IAI e MO'UI) 'aia ne u talanoa kiai 'i mu'a pe ko ho'o laku mai pe te'eki fakahoa ki ai. ko honau pou malohi 'e ni'ihi 'a e ngaahi text ne u lave ki ai 'i mu'a 'atu ia he kamata. eg. Senesi (Folofola ke...; Sione 1:1-5, 14; Hepelu 4:12 -13; 2 Tim. 3:16-17 etc.) (lotopoha)

-----------------------------------------

 

mahalo pe lotopoha kuo mahino 'a e faingata'a ke fkfelave'i ho'o fkkaukau moe ngaahi potutohi kuo tuku atu, he 'oku 'ikai ke nau fkhinohino'i e kakai kenau li'aki e me'a na'e hiki ka nau taloa hanga tonu pe ki he 'otua. 'ikai 'aupito! 'oku fkhinohino'i kitautolu 'ia siosiua mo teut. ki hono mahu'inga 'o e muimui ki he ngaahi me'a kuo folofola 'aki 'e he 'otua ke nau tauhi ki ai...

 

na'a mo sisu e, 'oku 'ikai ke ne fekau e kakai kenau tokanga ange pe ki ai. 'ikai! ka 'oku ne tokanga ke mahu'inga malie ki he kakai, ka nau maa'i ia fktaha mo 'ene ngaahi lea (words) - what we have with us today as scipture (gospels) - he will be ashame of them when he returns.

 

toki hoko atu ki ha hala 'oku taa'i mai 'e he folofola 'o kau ki he authority - i will also look at the involvement of the holy spirit...

[iki]

----- Original Message -----

From: sfaupula

To: tasil...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 12:41 PM

Subject: [tasilisili] Re: FOLOFOLA 'A E 'OTUA -Lotopoha

[sfaupula]

malo mu'a lotopoha pea tuku pe ke fai ha hoko atu ki ho'o ngaahi fkmatala koeni.

--------------------------------

kimu'a peau hoko atu 'oku ou kole fakamolemole atu ke 'oua 'e 'twist around' 'eku poini 'o pehee 'oku 'ikai keu tali e mafai 'o e 'Otua he TOHITAPU. Ko 'eku poini 'oku 'IKAI MAFAI TATAU E 'OTUA MO E TOHITAPU. Ka 'oku fakafalala e TOHITAPU HE INSPIRATION and GUIDE 'a LM. (lotopoha)

--------------------------------

 

'oku ou kole fkmolemole atu na'a 'oku ha atu kuou hanga 'o mimio ho'o fkkaukau. mole ke mama'o! he 'oku ou tui ko ho'o toki fkmahino mai eni 'oku ke tali pe 'oku 'i he tohitapu 'a e mafai 'o e 'otua, neongo 'oku ke toe pehe pe 'oku 'ikai mafai tatau 'a e tohitapu pea moe 'otua. ko hono 'uhinga 'o ho'o tali 'oku 'i he tohitapu 'a e mafai 'o e 'otua he 'oku fkfalala ia 'i he inspiration moe guide 'a e laumalie ma'oni'oni.

 

malo lotopoha e talanoa mahino pea 'oku tokoni ia ki he 'etau talanoa 'oku fai. ko e me'a eni 'oku mahino mai 'i ho'o fkmatala and your whole argument revolves around the following point. 'oku 'ikai ke ke tali 'oku mafai tatau e tohitapu moe 'otua (in what sense do you mean by "authority" here?), ka 'oku 'ikai ke ke loto ke tala atu 'e ha taha "'oku 'ikai [ke ke] tali e mafai 'o e 'otua he tohitapu" (lau eni 'a koe). ko hono 'uhinga he 'oku fkfalala e hoko 'a tohitapu ko e mafai 'o e 'otua 'i he inspiration moe guide 'a laumalie.

 

it seems the bible only becomes authoritative when the holy spirit enter it and once he exits it the bible returns to being just a dead book (me'a mate), to use your own language.

 

this view of the bible is quite curious because we seem to accord scripture with divine authority only when the spirit enter the bible, or guide a person to understand scripture as god's word. have you not read that scripture is the product of the spirit who inspired men to write down inspired words (not only were the authors inspired, but each word were also inspired by the holy spirit). now, how can we deny scripture as god's words, for the spirit of god inspired men to write down inspired words, and regard it as only a human product which its authority depends on the holy spirit entering it or a person reading it in a later stage?

 

i can now see why you're adamant to refuse my point. but allow me to make few remarks. first, if we only think of scripture as a human document (your emphasis) with an exclusive function of pointing us to god, we simply deny the authority of god's spirit who penned scripture through human hands. (i'm not disregarding the human minds here by the way) further, under this mode of thinking we have become the judge of when and how the spirit could be involved with scripture.

 

lotopoha 'oku mahino malie kia au 'a e 'uhinga ho'o tokanga ki he kau 'a laumalie 'i he lea 'a sisu 'o fekau'aki mo e fuakava motua pea malo 'aupito e fktokanga. ka 'oku 'uhinga nai eni 'oku 'ikai ke recognise 'e sisu ia e divine characteristic 'o e fuakava motu'a 'i he'ene pehe 'ia mk.14:27 - "it is written" - koe'uhi ne 'ikai kau 'a laumalie ia he talanoa koeni? i think it would be hard press to sustain your method of interpretation in this passage, for it is quite clear that jesus' words here is part of a formulaic expression - including "have you not read" - which underscores jesus' high view of scripture as a book of divine characteristics.

 

i have no disagreement with you with regards to the holy spirit's involvement in making scripture meaningful to us today, and i would even go further by suggesting that the holy spirit affirm the authority of the bible in matters concerning the church and life. my point of departure, however, is when we sever the holy spirit from his rightful place in the production of scripture, but to reinstall him to his rightful place when we wish and feel it suits us.

 

now, since scripture is written by god's spirit, it therefore becomes his words. when we hear it it's as if god himself is talking to us through a variety of genres and in rejecting or obeying his words we are rejecting and obeying god's very authority. if the bible is anything less we not only make jesus out to be a fool, for he accorded scripture with divine authority, but we also fail to give recognition to the spirit's involvement in the production of scripture.

[tino tahitu'a]

Ka 'oku 'i ai ha kaveinga ke u fakaKaveinga'aki 'a
'eku lave fekau'aki mo e MA'UHAKE...mo 'ene ofi mai
hono taimi pea te u fakaKaveinga'aki 'a e ongo
Kaveinga ko 'eni...

1. MO'UI MATEUTEU
2. MO'UI MA'ONI'ONI...

Ke mou tokanga he 'oku 'ikai ke mou 'ilo 'a e taimi
'e hoko mai ai 'a e Eiki Ta'ane..

Na'a ku lave 'o pehee te u lave ki he ongo event 'e ua
'e fai 'i he MA'UHAKE 'I HE 'ATAA....

1. HILIFAKI KALAUNI
2. TA'ANE 'A E LAMI MO HONO SIASI...

Oku ou fieloto ke u to'o mai 'a e ngaahi Kalauni 'e 5
'e fai hono hilifaki Kalauni 'i he MA'UHAKE...Oku ou
faka'amu pe ke ke fakasiosio mo ke fakakaukau pe 'oku
ke to 'i loto 'i he ngaahi kalauni ko 'eni....

1. Fakaului ha Laumalie
***********************
Oku 'iloa pe 'a e Kalauni ko 'eni ko e Kalauni 'o e
Fiefia. Ko hono veesi tohitapu 'oku ha ia 'ia
I Tesa 2:19-For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of
rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord
Jesus Christ at his coming?

Oku mahino mai 'a hono ui ko e Kalauni o e fiefia he
'oku pa mavava 'a loto langi 'o ka ke ka fakaului ha
Laumalie ki he 'Otua

2. Kalauni 'o hono katekina ha faingata'a
******************************************
'Oku 'iloa 'a e Kalauni ko 'eni ko e Kalauni 'o e
Mo'ui
Semisi 1:2, 3 11,12 pea mo Fakaha 2:10
Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when
he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which
the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Kaunga Fononga ko e ha e ki'i faingata'a 'o 'eta faai
fononga ko 'enii. Ka taunga lea mai ha taha pehee nai
te ta lava ke ta'ofi hota kita...Ka lau'i kovi kita
pehee nai 'e malava ke mapukepuke hoto loto tangia mo
hoto 'atamai ta'efie'auna. Oku mamahi mo faingata'a ka
kapau te te lava'i 'oku mahino 'e tafe 'a lo'imata ka
'e ongo mai ha fiefia 'i hoto loto...Ko e me'a tepuu
ko e kalauni 'e hilifaki kiate kita...

3. Kalauni 'o ka ke taki ngaue ki he 'Otua
*****************************************
eg. Faifekau
Pule Faihiva he siasi
Faiako ECL pe Lautohi fakaSapate etc.....
Malanga homou siasi
Le'o matapa
'Oku 'iloa 'a e kalauni ko 'eni ko e kalauni 'o e
NAAUNAU'IA...
Oku ha mahino pe ia 'ia IPita 5:2-4
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall
receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
Oku fakamahino mai 'e Pita ko 'etau feinga 'oku fai 'i
mamani ko e feinga pe ki he kalauni 'oku 'ikai ke
holoitounga. Ko e veve pe mo e nunu mo vete..Na'a ku
feinga 'i Fiji ki ha kalauni 'o e sino lelei pea ma'u
ai ha'aku Metali Siliva...Ko 'eku sio ki he siliva loi
ko 'eni kuo 'ume'umea. Ko 'etau tali 'a e 'Eiki ko
Sisu Kalaisi pea ta u feinga ki he taki 'o ha lautohi
fakaSAPATE ki ha taki pe malanga pe faifekau pe kihi'i
motu'i ngaue pe ma'ae 'Otua 'oku tau fakatetu'a ki he
Kalauni 'oku naaunau'ia mei he 'etau Tamai 'oku 'i he
langii...

4. Kalauni 'o e malava ke mapule'i hoto tangata motu'a
***************************************************
The master for your old Nature...
1 Kol 9: 25-27
And every man that striveth for the mastery is
temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a
corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I,
not as one that beateth the air:
But I keep under my body, and bring it into
subjection: lest that by any means, when I have
preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Oku tala ai 'e Paula 'e faingofua ange ke te ongo
ngofua ki he kakano...Ko e Kalauni 'eni 'oku
faingata'a he 'oku tanu pe 'a hoto tangata motu'a 'o
kita 'i loto 'i hoto loto..Ko 'ene ha'u pe peau 'o e
'ita ko 'ene akeee ia. Oku fa'a lave 'a e kakai 'e
ni'ihi ki he liliu ha tahaa..Ko hono mo'oni 'oku 'ikai
ke liliu ha taha ka ko e fakafetongi pe 'o e
mo'uii...Ko e liliu 'e malava pe ke u faka'uhiga'i 'e
au ko e liliu pe ha tangata 'o hoko ko e ki'i laione
pe ki'i taika ka 'oku loi foki ia....Ko e me'a pe 'oku
hoko kiate kita ko e fakafetongi pe 'o e mo'uii...Ka
'oku mohemohe pe mo toka hoto tangata motu'a 'i
loto...Te u ki'i fakataa ange pe kiate au. Ko e taimi
ko 'eni 'oku feinga ke u tau'i 'a e tuku e fa'a lea
kapekapee. 'A e fa'a konaa kava malohi kuo tuku ia, 'a
e fa'a hela'ia ko ee pea laulau aiii..Ko e talanoa
tukuhifo ha taha pea 'oku faingata'a he 'oku ifo'ia 'a
e kakano ia ki ai pea 'oku mamahi 'o ka tuku...Ka 'oku
'ikai ke 'alu ia mama'o 'oku tanu pe ia 'i loto 'i he
lotoo...Ko e fakaFetongi pe ke hu mai 'a Sesuu 'o SEA
'I HE LOTOO...Pea u toki ofo 'o tala 'e Paula 'a e pau
ke 'i ai hoto kalauni ka te te tanu hifo ai pe hoto
tangata motu'a....
Toe lau pe mo e Efeso 4: 22, 25 29 - 31

5. Kalauni 'o e Ma'oni'onii...
*******************************
2 Timothy 4:8
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of
righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge,
shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but
unto all them also that love his appearing.
Ko e fakamaau Ma'oni'oni ia ko 'ene foaki 'a e Kalauni
'o e Ma'oni'oni kiate koe kotoa pe

Ko e mahu'inga ia 'o e Sanctification na'a kau lave ki
aii. Ka kuopau ke ke fai 'a e ngaue ke earn 'a e
ngaahi Kalauni kuo u toki lave ni ki ai ka ko e lave
fakaHangatonu mai pe 'a e Tohitapu pea mo'oni ai 'a e
hiva 'oku tau fa'a Saame ai...

E fai ha foaki pale 'i he Langi
Kalauni ne foaki mai ai 'e he TAMAI
He ko 'aho 'o e mavava mo e Fiefia Lahi
Te u ta'alo'alo atu pea ke ta'alo'alo mai
Te u malimali atu pea ke malimali mai............

Te tau hu 'i hono matapa pea ke manatu'i ko e ongo
Selafimi ko ee na'a na le'ohi e puha 'o e fuakava 'i
he fuakava motu'a pea na'a na tu'u mo e heleta uloo
hili hono kapusi 'o 'Ivi mo 'Atama te na 'i ai
foki...Ko e foki ki HOTO LOTOLOTONGA ko e ta'ata'a pe
'o e Lami, iloa ko Sesu pe ko Sisuu....

Te u faka'osi'aki 'eni...
Ko e MASTER KEY 'O E MA'U HAKE....
KO E MO'UI MATEUTEU...
Oku tala 'e he Tohitapu ko e tangata ma'oni'oni 'oku
ikai si'i hifo 'ene hinga tu'o 7 he 'aho..Fefe ai koe
mo au ko e va'akau popoo...
Kapau te ke hinga'aki ho mata pe hinga'aki ho loto pe
te ke hinga pe fai angahala he 'aho pea ke vete pe he
taimi ko ia..Oua na'a ke tatali ke efiafi na'a a'umai
'a e ma'uhake he 'oku hange 'ene hoko mai ko ha kemo
pee...Oku 'ikai ke lava ai 'a e fakatomala ia..
Lau 'a e ngaahi konga tohi ko 'eni....'0ku talatalanoa
ai ki HONO ngaahi 'aho 'e hoko maii...

1. Ma'ake 13
2. Matiu 24
2. Luke 21

Na'e pehee 'e Sesu 'ia Matiu 24:36 'a e 'ikai ke 'ilo
'e he taha ki he 'aho ko iaa...
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the
angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Ko e me'a ee 'oku ongo ko e Folofola ko ee 'a Sisu
na'e pehee 'i hono veesi 37 'ia Matiu ai pee...
"For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like
the days of Noah. E hange 'a e hoko mai 'a e Alo 'o e
'Otua ko e ngaahi 'aho 'o Noaa...Sai tau foki leva kia
Noa 7:4
"For after seven more days, I will send rain on the
earth forty days and forty nights; and I will blot out
from the face of the land every living thing that I
have made."
Seuke 'a e taimi 'o e hoko mai 'a e faingata'aa...Lau
'a e 'aho 'e 7 pea te u tukuange 'a e faingata'aa ki
he funga 'o e fonua...Ko e 7 ko e fika ia 'o e
'Otua...'Oku tatau 'a e ta'u 'e 1000 mo e 'aho pe 'e
taha ki he 'Otua. TOKANGA NA'A KO E KUONGA 'ENI..'OUA
TE KE TELINGA VELI PE FIU HE FANONGO...Ko e afe'i ta'u
'eni hota kuonga...Oku ou fie fakaloto lahi atu kiate
koe 'a e pau ke ke muimui kia Sisu mo 'ene
folofolaa...
Oku faingata'a he ko e kau to'a pe te nau hamusi 'o e
Pule'anga 'o e langi...
Kuo u nofonofo pea u fakakaukau kiate au...Ko 'eku
fa'a konaa he taimi ko eee 'oku faingofua pe ke te
loto lahi...Oku faingofua ke 'oua 'e mapukepuke hoto
loto...Fefe ka apply ia ki he to'a he fai totonu
koe'uhi pe ko e tamasi'i ko Sisuu...

Oku ou 'ofa lahi atu ki he tokotaha kotoa pe...
Te u toe fakamanatu atu..Kapau 'oku 'ikai ke tau 'ilo
ki he taimi 'o 'ene ha'ele mai....Ko e kaveinga 'iloa
mo e koula pea ko e kiii pe ia ko e
1. MO'UI MATEUTEU
2. MO'UI MA'ONI'ONI...Oua 'e fu'u tokanga ki he
palani'i 'o e koloa 'o mamani..me'a lelei pe ia ka e
manatu pe ke tuku ha taimi ma'ae 'Otua...

In the name of our Lord...Jesus Christ
Amen!

Just From A Tongan Crusader For Christ

We must be more than a HERO, WARRIOR OR A CONQUEROR
FOR WE ARE SOLDIERS OF CHRIST....

God bless pea ke 'a'ana pe 'a e LANGILANGI...

[sfaupula]

malo lotopoha e malavalava atu e ngaahi fatongia 'o e uike ko ee, pea tuku pe mu'a ke fai ha hoko atu ki ho'o ngaahi lau koeni....

----------------

Sfaupula ko e tali 'a Sisu, (Mtt 4:4, Lk 4:4, mo e fakamatala 'a Mk 1:12-13 him &he), "...'ikai mo'ui e tangata..." ko hono identify ia 'e he fa'utohi pe ko Sisu ia mei hono tafa'aki ko e TANGATA KAKATO IA. Fakatokanga'i led 'e he LM, drove 'e LM. 'Ikai 'oku play 'e LM 'a e part mahu'inga he text ko eni pea pehee ki he TOHITAPU foki? >>>>>> (lotopoha)

---------------

 

there are some inconsistencies with your approach here i wish to point out. for instance, just because the spirit led and drove jesus out in to the desert, it does not necessarily  mean the holy spirit influenced jesus' view of the old testament? after all, the use of words like led and drove by the author to describe how jesus moved from baptism in to the desert does not necessarily mean that jesus was filled with the holy spirit. that had already took place at the baptism.

 

if jesus identified himself or being identified by the author as tangata kakato (as you say), to what extent can we say the holy spirit influenced jesus view of the old testament as divine? after all, it would seem contradictory if we say jesus saw himself as fully human at this point yet the holy spirit was still operative in some measure in jesus' life at this point.

------------

 

Fehu'i: Ko e haa e 'UHINGA 'o e toe Fekau'i Hifo 'a LM after all the written document (TOHITAPU) 'oku MAFAI TATAU mo e 'OTUA? 'Oku ou kei manatu'i pe ho'o fakamatala kimu'a 'oku 'ikai 'OTUA E TOHITAPU, hili ko ia kuo ke feinga mai koe 'oku na MAFAI TATAU MO E 'OTUA. Kaikehe tuku keu hoko atu he 'oku fakamafana. >>>> (lotopoha)

-------------

 

the problem with this way of thinking often put the spirit at odds with the words of god (scripture). an idea scripture does not entertain. as matter of fact the spirit is to take only from what belongs to the son and the father and make that known to us. (jn.16:1-16)

-------------

 

Ko e lave koee 'a Sisu he kosipeli 'a Sione 5:39-40 (remind you once again), 'oku haa mahino ai LIFE IS IN JESUS AND SCRIPTURE IS NOT A LIVING WORD, BUT A WRITTEN DOCUMENT that will be totally dependent in the Guide and inspiration of the LM. See Luke 24:44-49, 'oku tokoni mo ia ki he fakatalanoa 'oku fai. TUHU ai pe ki he TOKOTAHA (Sisu) pea 'e hoko e kau muimui ko e kau FAKAMO'ONI 'i ha hili hono FAKAKOFU'AKI kinautolu ha MALOHI mei 'Olunga (LM). 'Ia (2Pita 1:21) 'oku haa ai e ngaahi lea ko eni:

 

"He kuo te'eki si'i ke 'omeia ha palofisai 'i he tu'utu'uni 'a e tangata: ka na'e lea mei he 'Otua ha kau tangata 'i he TAKINA kinautolu 'e he LM." See 1Cor. 2:13 etc. 'Oku pukepuke mo tefito 'ia LM e MO'UI mo e MAFAI 'o e TOHITAPU. Pea 'i he'ene pehee leva 'oku ou fokotu'u atu e me'a ko eni:

 

1. Mafai 'oku 'ikai nofo ia 'i ha me'a mate (e.g. pepa & vaitohi etc.), ka 'oku nofo mo fou mai ke fou atu he me'a mo'ui (e.g. tangata & fefine - temipale kimoutolu 'o e 'Otua etc.).

 

2. Ko ha'ane nofo 'i ha me'a mate, hangee ko ho'o fokotu'u fakataataa mai, ko e fo'i theory pe ia. Ka 'oku 'ikai ko ha mo'oni'i me'a ia. Koe'uhi he te ke ala lava pe 'e koe ia 'o maumau'i e pepa ko ia mo liliu e me'a kuo hiki tohi ai tatau ai pe pe ko e lao etc. 'Oku lava pe ke tau practice mo live it out ha fa'ahinga theory in our daily lives after all it is an assumption with no fact.>>>>> (lotopoha)

--------

 

kapau pe te tau lau fklelei e ngaahi post 'e mahino 'oku 'ikai keu fk'ikai'i 'oku 'ia sisu 'a e mo'ui. 'oku ou tali 'e au e mo'oni koeni pea tu'unga 'i he 'ia sisu ('otua) 'a e mo'ui 'oku taau ketau tokanga ki he 'ene lea mai 'i he'ene folofola. ko e lea mai 'a sisu ('otua) 'i he'ene folofola - if you're familiar with the literatures on how god speaks to us propositionary in a variety of genres we can explore that area as well - 'oku makatu'unga ai e nofo hono mafai 'i he'ene folofola (tohitapu).

 

lotopoha, kapau te ke fktokanga'i na'a ke ki'i loto mamahi koe'uhi na'a ke pehe 'oku ou mimio ho'o fkmatala. 'ikai 'oku fkmahino mai 'e ho'o mamahi 'a e nofo 'i ho'o tohi ho ivi moe fkkaukau moe mafai. my illustration maybe a theory, but you have proven it with your comments not to twist your words around.

 

to deny the possibility of god's words being written in a book is the same as denying god the possibility to come in human form. we are walking on thin ice when we think along this line of thinking, because this is closely tied to the doctrine of the incarnation. but, if you like to further pursue this area i am more than happy to continue with our conversation. 

[sfaupula]

malo 'aupito lotopoha e toe 'ahia e tepile ni pea kimu'a pea ta toki hoko atu 'oku ou kole fkmolemole atu ke ke kataki mu'a 'o ki'i define ange ho'o 'uhinga ki he authority in relation to the issue of god's authority and the bible. it seems you think we claim the bible has the same authority as god in the sense that it can create, heal sick people, give eternal life, etc... . that is not our claim, for the issue of authority and the bible has to do with god's spoken W/words in jesus and in the bible. God's words comes to us in and through the bible and it demands our obedience, our praise, respect, etc... of him, simply because they are his words and not just some words written only by humans. that is what i mean when idendifying with god's authority.

 

your post betray your confusion over the issue, - and you have yet to say anything new - for we believe christ is the only person who has life - as you rightly emphasise. however, this does not deny the bible its divine chatracteristics. have i mentioned that the spirit authored the bible by causing humans to write it? (inspiration) i think we might just need to start from here.

 

god, as you rightly mentioned is above all things. however, the incarnation did not jeopardized or compromised his sovereignty when he appeared in human forms. now, for us to think that god's sovereignty makes it imposible for god's authoritative words (we are here talking about words) to be written in words is to deny god an important aspect of the way he relates to his creature and creation. the bible is definitely not a compromise of god's sovereignty!

 

thanks for the quotes, but i think they are irrelevent to what we mean by the bible as god's authoritative words. god's spoken or written words have the authority (if you have not read my definition, it'd be a start on your quest to understand the issue at hand) of god as applied or read by all people.

 

to use god's sovereignty to deny his authority being delegated to the bible (book) is to assert things foreign to the biblical materials.

 

your bible knowledge and quotes are commendable, but they don't deny the fact that christ recognised scripture as a divine. also, knowing christ as god does not in any sense deny the bible as god's authoritative words. the bible can still be identified as god's words. thus, it has the same authority (again, see my definition of authority) as god. 

 

however, malo 'aupito lotopoha kae toki hoko atu ki he toenga ho'o ngaahi claims...

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Lotopoha Jeruel

To: tasil...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 10:17 PM

Subject: [tasilisili] Re: FOLOFOLA 'A E 'OTUA -Lotopoha

malie sfaupula pea 'oku ou fiefia ho'o kei pine mai, tuku keu hoko atu;

 

'oku 'asi mai heni ho'o hanga 'o faka'ikai'i ho'o lau ko ia kimu'a 'oku ke kau mo au he tui 'oku 'ikai 'OTUA E TOHITAPU. KA kuo ke feinga eni koe ke toe palau mo tisi ho'o lau ko ia kae too mai e fakakaukau KUO 'OTUA E TOHITAPU (koe'uhi kae MAFAI TATAU E TOHITAPU mo e 'OTUA). 'E 'ikai hala ke u lau pe pehe 'e au kuo KE FOKOTU'U mai e TAHA 'oe NGAAHI HERESY na'e 'asi he hisitolia 'o e lotu. Kaikehe, tuku keu LUE atu pe AU he TOHITAPU. Manatu'i 'oku 'ikai ke u hanga 'o faka'ikai'i e authoritative 'a e TOHITAPU, ka 'i he taimi tatau pe 'oku 'ikai MFAI TATAU E TOHITAPU mo e 'OTUA. 'Oku tautau e MAFAI 'O E TOHITAPU 'i he'eku mahino 'ia LM.

 

Manatu'i ma'u pe ko'eta talanoa he MAFAI TATAU 'A E 'OTUA mo e TOHITAPU (tu'unga 'o e tohitapu mo e 'Otua).

 

Sfaupula ko e fa'ahinga approach 'oku MOU ngaue'aki ki he TOHITAPU 'oku 'ikai ko ha founga fo'ou ia pea 'oku kau ia he TAHA 'o e ngaahi founga 'oku nau fa'ee taha mei he "confessional aproach". 'Aia ko 'ene ki'i leka 'e TAHA ko e "VETE PE 'E HE FOLOFOLA 'A IA 'IATE IA PE". 'E tapu ke toe mimio holo mo ta'aki hono lea 'oku fokotu'u ki ai 'e he kau liliu TOHITAPU and even seeking for its historical background and its relation to the conetmporary world.

 

Ko ho'o conclude mai'aki e fo'i "theory" ko ena 'oku pehe kapau 'e deny e HOKO MAI 'A E 'OTUA he TOHITAPU, ko 'etau DENY ia 'ene HOKO MAI 'IA KALAISI KO E TANGATA (INCARNATION). Sfaupula 'oku 'osi deny pe 'e he 'Otua ia IA mei he'ene dwell in a "building or House" made by the Hand, Mind, power etc of HUMAN BEING. Ko ia ai, 'E 'IKAI malohi fe'unga e fa'ahinga losika ko ia ia ke justify 'aki ho'o feinga mo ho'o taukave. 'Oku ou poupou fefeka atu ki ho'o TRY HARD to justify the way you think otherwise you find your time that you have spent on doing some biblical studies as a waste of times. Pea ko e taha ia he fa'ahinga laumalie lelei 'o e potalanoa 'oku ta fai. He ko e laumalie 'o e "Vivili mo e Fekumi". Pea 'oku fe'unga pe ia mo koe he 'oku 'i he mala'e 'o e ako, pea 'oatu mo e talamonuu.

 

Tuku ke u hoko atu'aki eni.

 

Ko e ko e "text" (TOHITAPU) is like a witness in a court of law. 'Oku 'iai e ngaahi human element ai (in the TOHITAPU) 'oku nau fakahaa kiate kitautolu 'a e 'ikai fe'unga e TOHITAPU ke MAFAI TATAU mo e 'OTUA.

e.g. (1Kolinito 7:10,12,25,40etc.); Paul's own opinion not Jesus command; (Sione 2:23) refers ki he "faka'ilonga" or signs ne fakahoko 'e Sisu 'i Selusalema, ka na'e 'ikai ha me'a pehee ai (no such sign relate to that point).

 

Fakatokanga'i ange Sfaupula, ko e TAHA e ngaahi matavaivai 'o e feinga ke TALI 'e he kakai e TOHITAPU in the "FACE or SURFACE LEVEL" 'oku nau nusi fakataha ai e "validity mo e Inspiration". Ko e anga 'eku vakai 'aku, ko e TUI FAKA-KALISITIANE 'oku depend 'O 'IKAI 'I HE "perfect, error-free e TOHITAPU ka 'i he "VALIDITY" 'a e "FEKAU" (message) 'AIA 'OKU TU'ULOTOLOTO ai.

 

Ko ho'o feinga mai ko ena he fuakava motu'a koe'uhi he 'oku ngali taau ke refer ma'u pe ki ai.  Fakatokanga'i eni. Na'e 'ikai fai ta'e'uhinga 'eku nofo atu he potu tohi ko ia 'ia Sione ki he WITNESS 'a e Wriiten Document kiate IA 'oku TUU ai e MO'UI. See Psalm 33:6,

 

"By the word of YAHWEH the heavens were made, and by the Breath of his mouth, all their host."

 

See Isaiah 55:10-11

 

'oku tokanga ki he "word of YAHWEH", 'A EE na'a ke feinga mai ki ai. Fakatatau ki he fakamatala 'a 'Aisea, 'e lava ke ma'u ai e ngaahi fakakaukau tefito ko eni:

1.the word goes forth from the mouth of God

2. sent by God to earth

3. descend from heaven

4 does God's will

5. accomplishes that for which God sent it

6. waters the earth

7. gives bread to eat

8. returns to God

'Oku ngaue'aki 'e Sione e fa'ahinga sio tatau 'i he'ene Koispeli. Fakatokanga'i eni:

1. I came forth from GOD...etc (16:27-28; cf 8:42; 13:3; 16:30;17:8)

2. "...God sent the Son into the world" (3:17 etc)

3. "I have descended from heaven (6:38; cf 6:41)

4. "...not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me (6:38; cf 5:30)

5. "...and to accomplish his work" (4:34; cf 5:36; 17:3-4)

6. Giving of the living water. "...who drinks of the ater which I will give... will never thirst" (4:14-15)

7. "...bread which I will give is my flesh for the life of the world" (6:51)

8. he must return to God. "... I am with you for a short time, then go back to the one who sent me" (7:33; cf 16:27-28 etc)

 

Ki'i laulau tohi atu hena kau tuli'i e lelue na'a 'alu,

 

'ofa atu mo e lotu,

lotopoha.

[sfaupula]

CORRECTION TO MY POST IS IN BOLD. read below...

----- Original Message -----

From: sfaupula

To: tasil...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 5:54 PM

Subject: [tasilisili] Re: FOLOFOLA 'A E 'OTUA -Lotopoha

malo 'aupito lotopoha e toe 'ahia e tepile ni pea kimu'a pea ta toki hoko atu 'oku ou kole fkmolemole atu ke ke kataki mu'a 'o ki'i define ange ho'o 'uhinga ki he authority in relation to the issue of god's authority and the bible. it seems you think we claim the bible has the same authority as god in the sense that it can create, heal sick people, give eternal life, etc... . that is not our claim, for the issue of authority and the bible has to do with god's spoken W/words in jesus and in the bible. God's words comes to us in and through the bible and it demands our obedience, our praise, respect, etc... of him, simply because they are his words and not just some words written only by humans. that is what i mean when idendifying with god's authority.

 

your post betray your confusion over the issue, - and you have yet to say anything new - for we believe christ is the only person who has life - as you rightly emphasise. however, this does not deny the bible its divine chatracteristics. have i mentioned that the spirit authored the bible by causing humans to write it? (inspiration) i think we might just need to start from here.

 

god, as you rightly mentioned is above all things. however, the incarnation did not jeopardized or compromised his sovereignty when he appeared in human forms. now, for us to think that god's sovereignty makes it imposible for god's authoritative words (we are here talking about words) to be written in words is to deny god an important aspect of the way he relates to his creature and creation. the bible is definitely not a compromise of god's sovereignty!

 

thanks for the quotes, but i think they are irrelevent to what we mean by the bible as god's authoritative words. god's spoken or written words have the authority (if you have not read my definition, it'd be a start on your quest to understand the issue at hand) of god, for they are god's words.

[sfaupula]

malo lotopoha kae hoko atu...

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Lotopoha Jeruel

To: tasil...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 10:17 PM

Subject: [tasilisili] Re: FOLOFOLA 'A E 'OTUA -Lotopoha

'oku 'asi mai heni ho'o hanga 'o faka'ikai'i ho'o lau ko ia kimu'a 'oku ke kau mo au he tui 'oku 'ikai 'OTUA E TOHITAPU. KA kuo ke feinga eni koe ke toe palau mo tisi ho'o lau ko ia kae too mai e fakakaukau KUO 'OTUA E TOHITAPU (koe'uhi kae MAFAI TATAU E TOHITAPU mo e 'OTUA). 'E 'ikai hala ke u lau pe pehe 'e au kuo KE FOKOTU'U mai e TAHA 'oe NGAAHI HERESY na'e 'asi he hisitolia 'o e lotu. Kaikehe, tuku keu LUE atu pe AU he TOHITAPU. Manatu'i 'oku 'ikai ke u hanga 'o faka'ikai'i e authoritative 'a e TOHITAPU, ka 'i he taimi tatau pe 'oku 'ikai MFAI TATAU E TOHITAPU mo e 'OTUA. 'Oku tautau e MAFAI 'O E TOHITAPU 'i he'eku mahino 'ia LM.

 

Manatu'i ma'u pe ko'eta talanoa he MAFAI TATAU 'A E 'OTUA mo e TOHITAPU (tu'unga 'o e tohitapu mo e 'Otua).

--------------

 

mei he kamata 'e tau talanoa 'oku te'eki keu lea atu 'oku 'otua e tohitapu. ko e me'a 'oku ou taukave ko e mafai 'o e 'otua 'i he tohitapu! pea ko e ongo me'a kehekehe 'aupito 'a e claim 'oku 'otua 'a tohitapu pea mo e claim 'oku mafai tatau e tohitapu moe 'otua he ko 'ene folofola 'a e tohitapu.

 

'oku 'ikai mahino mahalo kia koe lotopoha e faikehekehe 'o e ongo me'a ni he 'oku ke fkmatala mai koe he me'a 'oku irrelevent ia ki he fkkaukau ko e divine words of god is inscripturated in the bible.

 

my problem is with your claim that the bible is only a human product. a claim which fail to consider how the holy spirit was involved in the production of the bible.

 

if the bible is god's words, for it was expired (breathed out by the spirit), then we must accept it as god's authoritative words.

 

it would be good if you give us what you mean by authority so we can be clear.

--------------

 

Ko e ko e "text" (TOHITAPU) is like a witness in a court of law. 'Oku 'iai e ngaahi human element ai (in the TOHITAPU) 'oku nau fakahaa kiate kitautolu 'a e 'ikai fe'unga e TOHITAPU ke MAFAI TATAU mo e 'OTUA.

e.g. (1Kolinito 7:10,12,25,40etc.); Paul's own opinion not Jesus command; (Sione 2:23) refers ki he "faka'ilonga" or signs ne fakahoko 'e Sisu 'i Selusalema, ka na'e 'ikai ha me'a pehee ai (no such sign relate to that point).

 

--------------

 

this is an interesting interpretation because you seem so sure that paul is referring to jn 2:23. but if we look at 6:16-17 it becomes clear that paul was working under the framework for marriage which "was wriiten" in genesis. the lord here refers to the overall view of jesus on marriage (look at mt.5:32).

 

paul's own opinion is an exercise of his apostolic authority and it does not invite us to doubt the divine character of the bible. god's spirit was still involved in writing this part of scripture.

 

if you think that the bible is not god's words because paul referred to something which never existed, i think you need to consider the paradigm which paul employed to deal with marriage. it's an old testament paradigm which jesus also utilised. i think it's called genesis!

-------------

 

Fakatokanga'i ange Sfaupula, ko e TAHA e ngaahi matavaivai 'o e feinga ke TALI 'e he kakai e TOHITAPU in the "FACE or SURFACE LEVEL" 'oku nau nusi fakataha ai e "validity mo e Inspiration". Ko e anga 'eku vakai 'aku, ko e TUI FAKA-KALISITIANE 'oku depend 'O 'IKAI 'I HE "perfect, error-free e TOHITAPU ka 'i he "VALIDITY" 'a e "FEKAU" (message) 'AIA 'OKU TU'ULOTOLOTO ai.

-------------

 

valid for who? scholars like yourself? for ministers? come on!!!

 

 

[sfaupula]

kataki pe lotopoha ka 'oku taau ma'u pe ke ke lau fklelei 'etau talanoa he ko 'eku lau eni - "to deny the possibility of god's words being written in a book is the same as denying god the possibility to come in human form."

 

i do not claim 'oku hoko mai (whatever this means [do you mean another incarnation?]) 'a e 'otua 'i he tohitapu.

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Lotopoha Jeruel

To: tasil...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 10:17 PM

Subject: [tasilisili] Re: FOLOFOLA 'A E 'OTUA -Lotopoha

[sfaupula]

how does your quotes below deny the claim that the bible is god's authoritative words? all you have done here is to give credential to my argument. that god is a speaking god and his words are powerful. the same idea is applied to the bible, since it is god's inspired words. jesus recognised this and i have clearly showed you this before. thank you for seeing things from this side of the field... .

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Lotopoha Jeruel

To: tasil...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 10:17 PM

Subject: [tasilisili] Re: FOLOFOLA 'A E 'OTUA -Lotopoha

 

[Poasi Tei]

This is an awesome prayer. Believe it and you shall be blessed. The problem with many of us is that we don't believe that God will open a window and pour out blessings, and that we won't have room to receive them. I dare anyone to try God. He is true to His word. God cannot lie and His promises are sure. Three things will happen to you this coming week: (1) You will find favour with someone you don't expect; (2) You will be too relevant to be ignored; (3) You will encounter God and you will never remain the same again. My prayer for you today: The eyes beholding this message shall not behold evil, the hands that will send this message to others shall not labor in vain, the mouth saying Amen to this prayer shall laugh forever. Remain in God's love as you send this prayer to everybody on your list. Have a lovely journey of life! Trust in the Lord with all your heart and He will never fail you because He is AWESOME ! If you truly need a blessing, continue reading this email: Heavenly Father, most Gracious and Loving God, I pray to you that you abundantly bless my family and me. I know that you recognize, that a family is more than just a mother, father, sister, brother, husband and wife, but all who believe and trust in you. Father, I send up a prayer request for blessings for not only the person who sent this to me, but for me and all that I have forwarded this message on to. And that the power of joined prayer by those who believe and trust in you is more powerful than anything. I thank you in advance for your blessings. Father God, deliver the person reading this right now from debt and debt's burdens. Release Your Godly wisdom that I may be a good steward over all that You have given me Father, for I know how wonderful and mighty You are and how if we just obey You and walk In Your word and have the faith of a mustard seed that You will pour out blessings. I thank You now Lord for the recent blessings I have received and for the blessings yet to come because I know You are not done with me yet.  In Jesus' name, I pray. Amen . TAKE 60 SECONDS and send this on quickly and within hours, you will have caused a multitude of people to pray to God for each other. Then sit back and watch the power of God work in your life for doing the thing that you know He loves.  Remain Blessed!!!

[Sione 'Atupuha Koloti]

malo e lotu pea fakanonga mo faka'amanaki,

na'a ku toki foki mai 'eni mei he ki'i fakataha, pea neu 'ohovale
'aupito he kei 'efihia 'a e poto mo e kau paipa na'a nau tataki 'a e
fakataha 'i he angahala ko e laulanu. pea mo e fakangafangafa
fatongia.

tonu ke fokotu'u hamau paenga mo e kau paipa ko 'eni mo e kau poto ke
fai ai ha lafolafo.

'ofa atu ki he'etau ngaue.

[sfaupula]

malo lotopoha and i find your rather brief assessment of scripture from a historical criticism approach to the bible interesting. however, before we engage in this area of biblical studies we should be mindful of how can the holy spirit work with texts which you claim to have errors in some places. does the holy spirit turn a blind eye to these texts? or does he skip over them? just some of the things you might need to be aware of when approaching scripture from the historical critical approach. but looking forward to your attempt to find the weaknesses in scripture.

 

--

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Lotopoha Jeruel

To: tasil...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 7:43 PM

Subject: [tasilisili] Re: FOLOFOLA 'A E 'OTUA -Lotopoha

malo sfaupula pea 'oku malie ho'o hanga 'o break out what I have said. Ka ko e me'a fakafiefia ko ho'o kei fie talanoa mai, pea kuo puli 'a TINO ia 'o teu Sapate TAMAI. Sai pe tuku ke ta hoko atu pe 'eta fe'inasi'aki, he 'oku fakalata ia pea tokoni kiate au.

 

Ko 'eku kole pe ke 'oua 'e force 'eku fakakaukau ke afe atu ki ho'o way of approaching the TOHITAPU. Please, Read IT CAREFULLY.

 

KA NEONGO IA TUKU KEU KI'I MALE ATU HEE he 'oku vave e taimi ki he pasi. fakatokanga'i 'a e 'uhinga ne u lave atu ai ki he methodologies of interpretation ( Biblical criticisms), na'a ku 'uhinga atu he 'oku ou lave'i e fa'ahinga methodology 'oku ke kau hono ngaue'aki ki hano read, exegysis or interpret e TOHITAPU (Confessional - e.g. kau ai e VETE PE 'E HE TOHITAPU IA 'IATE IA PE pea TOKONI mai ai e LM). Ka ko ha fa'ahinga hangee ko kimautolu 'oku mau vakavakai holo ki hono ngaahi historical background within the TOHITAPU and apart from TOHITAPU. 'Oku mau ngaue'aki e Who, When, Where and Why?.

 

Pea 'oku lava ia ai 'o fakatokanga'i e ngaahi me'a ne u lave atu ki ai. He 'oku mou TUI ko e MATA'I TOHI KOTOA PE MO E FO'I LEA KOTOA PE HE TOHITAPU 'oku inspired by the LM and ERROR-FREE etc. Ka kiate au, there are many errors in the TOHITAPU. Manatu'i errors CAUSES or CREATE a twisting of meanings. BAD ATTITUDES from the writers causes CHRISTIANS HATE and ANGRY with the JEWS. Is it right for us to put our personal bad attitudes IN and THROUGH the process of PASSING and DELIVERING GOD'S MESSAGE? Answering of this kind of question links with the MAFAI 'of the TOHITAPU and also DRAWS a very big different with God. Fefe 'a e akonaki ko ia, ke 'ofa'i hotau ngaahi FILI, pea Fakamolemole 7 times 70? Think about this, and be advised, I am not dropping out my point since from the begining of our conversation. I am still sticking to my point.

 

Te u hoko atu he next time ki he ngaahi weaknesses 'o e TOHITAPU 'a ia 'oku ou pehe ai 'oku 'ikai MAFAI TATAU E TOHITAPU mo e 'OTUA, ka 'oku hanga 'e he LM 'o fakaivia e ngaue kuo fai he ko e kau TONOUNOU pe KITAUTOLU mo e NGE'ESI IPU. As I said before, majority of the Christians today do not really understand "what does it mean to be an INSPIRED SCRIPTURES".

 

Talamonu atu ki he Sapate Tamai,

'Ofa atu mo e lotu,

lotopoha.

 

[sfaupula]

lotopoha as i have showed you in my previous posts biblical authority is derived from jesus' approach to scripture and god inspiring people to write inspired words.

 

i am not sure what you mean by unkind attitude caused by the writers and it would be great if you support your claim about the errors in scripture and how these errors diminishes god's authority in scripture. please provide us with passages where errors do occur and compare your findings with the variant texts before you draw your conclusion. after all, you did say this is your area - 'biblical criticism!'

 

there are so many events in scripture that seem unkind to our post-modern standard [what standard?]. must we cut those bits out of scripture?

 

tali atu ke ke ki'i tataki atu kitautolu ki he mala'e 'o ho'o taukave.

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Lotopoha Jeruel

To: tasil...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 6:40 PM

Subject: [tasilisili] Re: FOLOFOLA 'A E 'OTUA -Lotopoha

Malo e mo'ui sfaupula mo toe a'usia mai e 'aho faka-koloa ko eni, 'io 'a e SAPATE TAMAI. 'OKU OU TUI 'OKU KE FIEFIA LAHI MO HO'O KI'I FAMILI, he toloi taimi kuo fai mai 'e he 'Otua ma'a kimoutolu ngaahi TAMAI kae'uma'aa si'otau ngaahi FAMILI.

 

I would like to Remind You once again what I am still trying to say, prove and make it very clear since from the beginning of our conversation and sharing, is the IMPOSSIBLE for the TOHITAPU to MAFAI TATAU mo e 'OTUA. Also, what I am going to say about the TONOUNOU  of the TOHITAPU is definitely not an ATTEMPT but A VERY CLEAR SAYING, TEACHING AND RECORDINGS IN THE TOHITAPU that are misleading the readers even those who are approaching the TOHITAPU from a such kind of view like confessional criticism etc. Sfaupula, the first question to ask here is, "HOW COME YOU AND OTHERS CLAIM THOSE WRITTEN DOCUMENTS WITH ERRORS (as you know for sure about this) to be MAFAI TATAU mo e 'OTUA?. God's primary mission is to fix the errors made by people like us with the help of the LM so that "we" readers and receivers may not miss what He wants 'us" to be, instead of supporting those unkind attitude caused by the "writers" or "messengers" produce more angers and hate among or between believers and unbelievers. You already known how is it true about the effection of the personal interference while delievering or passing God's message to the receivers.

 

[vilimo fakalolo]

'Oku lolotonga fakahoko mafana ae uikelotu he uike ni 'ae Uesiliana i Tonga pea koe kaveinga fakalukufua  oe uike lotu koe "Teuteu ki he Konifelenisi hono 85, Fakalelei fakafonua moe Hilifaki Kalauni". Pea oku toki iai pe ae kaveinga kehekehe kihe pongipongi moe efiafi 'o felavei moe kaveinga fakalukufua 'o hange koia kuo mou anga maheni ki ai.

 

Mou kaunga lotua mai ai pe ae kaveinga.

 

Vilimo

[sfaupula]

malo lotopoha e toe 'ahia e tepile ni pea neongo kuo mavahe atu 'a mamani 'o talanoa ha ngaahi me'a 'oku ki'i more challenging ange 'i he textual, source, historical, etc.. criticisms tuku pe ke ta fononga atu he mamaha ki he loloto. 'oku fkfiefia lotopoha ho'o taukave kae tuku keu ki'i lave atu pe he me'a ni....

 

ko e taimi fe 'oku ke pehee 'oku feto'oaki?

 

here are what the texts says:

 

mt.28:1 - "after the sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, mary mag., and the other mary went to the tomb."

 

mk.16:1-2 - "when the sabbath was over, mary mag., and mary the mother of james, salome bought spices... . and very early on the first day of the week, when the sun had risen, they went to the tomb."

 

lk.24:1 - but on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the to the tomb,..."

 

jn.20:1 - "early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, mary mag came to the tomb..."

 

ko e me'a pe eni neu expect pea malo lotopoha he ko e faingamalie eni ke tau vakai'i ai pe mo ho'o method. 'oku ke pehee 'oku feto'oaki e taimi pea matamata 'oku fehalaaki e ngaahi fkmatala 'a e kau fa'utohi he 'oku nau feto'oaki.

 

it seems they are here describing the same event and they all approximate the time to be early in the morning. mt says "when the first day was dawning", mk says "very early on the first day of the week, when the sun had risen", lk says "at early dawn", and jn says "early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark".

 

with their considerable similarity in terms of the time the event took place - which was early in the morning - we cannot assert that the gospels contradict one another in terms of when the women approached the tomb. but what of mk's and jn's differing views? after all mk says "when the sun had risen" and john says "while it was still dark". first, we must keep in mind that both mk and jn approximate the time to be early in the morning. so, when mark says "when the sun had risen" that does not contradict jn's view - "while it was still dark" - because both can take place early in the morning. early in the morning the sun does rise, yet it can still be dark.

 

in terms of the number of women the synoptic tells us that went to the tomb, there is nothing there to suggest the synoptic gospels disagree over this matter. although mt only have mary mag and mary, it does not mean that they were the only one who went to the tomb. we know from mk. and lk. that there were more than two women that went to the tomb. we cannot draw the conclusion that only two women went to the tomb on the basis that there were no other names mentioned. this can also apply to jn's account, although it is obvious mary mag. was the focus of jn's account. [(this is something i will pay more attention in the course of our discussion)

 

lotopoha, it would be helpful if you can explain why you think these differing, yet not contradictory, explanations of the time the women went to the tomb could support why the bible could not be the words of god. just because the various accounts vary in words does not determine your position, because what they say is correct in their own right. further, they do not condradict one another when we do examine them closely.

 

ko ho'o fkpapau'i ko ee 'oku fehalaaki 'a mk pe ko sisu 'i he'ena ngaue'aki e talanoa 'ia 1 sam. 21:1-7 'oku ki'i ngali vale 'i he mala'e 'oku ke taukave mei ai, he 'oku te'eki ke conclude 'e ha taha 'a e founga totonu ke fai 'aki hono fokotu'utu'u 'a e grammatical construction 'o e fo'i setesi (ἐπὶ ᾿Αβιαθὰρ ἀρχιερέως, ejpi Abiaqar ajrcierew). there are more then just one reading (D W {271}; {A C Θ Π Σ Φ 074 and many others}) that we must consider before we can confidently say mk or jesus made a mistake. the current discussion over the correct translation is still not conclusive and it also seems from jn 18:13, 24 that previous high priest are still considered as high preist although they are no longer in office. something that could explain why jesus and mark referred to abiathar, rather than abimelech. let me explain.

 

1.

it is highly inappropriate to conclude that jesus or mk made a mistake since what is currently understood to be the most natural reading of the text ("when abiathar was high priest") [nrsv, asv] is in fact not correct. other readings (constructions) gives the idea that a wide time framework was in the mind of jesus when he referred to abiathar instead of ahimelech (hence, kjv, niv translation - "in the days of Abiathar the high priest"; nasb, esv - "in the time of Abiathar the high priest"). further, there are simply very few biblical parallels to this grammatical construction (when abiathar was high priest) (ie. ἐπί + genitive proper noun, followed by an anarthrous common noun), so it is possible that an extensive search for this construction in nonbiblical literature would prove that the meaning does involve a wide time frame. if this is so, “in the days/time of abiathar the high priest” would be a viable option. it is also possible that this phrasing serves as a loose way to cite a scripture passage. there is a parallel to this construction in Mark 12:26: “have you not read in the book of moses, in the passage about the bush?” here the final phrase is simply ἐπὶ τοῦ βάτου (ejpi tou batou), but the obvious function of the phrase is to point to a specific passage within the larger section of scripture.

 

lotopoha you seem so confident that your approach will determine your position. yet you have failed to take notice of one of the crucial lessons jh have taught in biblical studies at utc. that is, 'any decision about the meaning of a text is open to future revision and one must consider all sides of the wider discussion on biblical texts before drawing any conclusions'.

 

lotopoha, you have not considered what you got yourself into, because your argument will not stand if you simply make comparisons without taking into account the wider discussion which biblical criticism scholars like yourself are involved.

 

2.

it was not uncommon in ancient time for people to think of retired high priests as still in office even though they have retired (for use of better word). for instance, caiaphas was appointed high priest in 18ad. a position he held until 37ad. although caiaphas was in office, it appears that he was under the shadow of his father-in-law, annas. annas's name continues to appear as high priest in the gospels and the book of acts even though he had relinquished that office 20yrs earlier (lk.3:2; jn.18:13, 24; ACTS 4:6). As you can see lotopoha, jesus' comment could be something which we have yet to fully understand in light of the fact that it was not a problem for jews to think of retired high priests as still holding office even when someone else have taken over the high priest role.

 

for you to say that lk and mt rejected mk is not only sloppy criticism, but you have not argued why they rejected mk's account. as far as we can see in the texts there is nothing there to tell us lk and mt rejected mk's account. they simply did not refer to abiathar. if they had referred to ahimelech, that would determine your point. but the fact they did not attempt to correct mk, by putting ahimelech's name in their writing, suggest their is more to mk's account than meets the eyes. 'oku fu'u simple 'aupito ho'o fkmatala, he 'oku ke deal pe moe me'a he fukahivai. koeha na'e 'ikai ke fktonutonu ai 'e lk mo mt 'a ma'ake 'aki ha'a na ngaue'aki e hingoa 'o ahimeleki? do they know something about mk's way of using 1 sam. 21 that we have yet to understand? these are the things biblical criticism seem not to deal with even though you claim that you are more concern with the who, when, why questions!

 

lotopoha mahalo kuo mahino atu 'a e 'ikai ke hanga 'e ho'o ngaahi texts, when we scrutinize it from other angles, 'o fkpapau'i ho'o taukave.

 

ko e taha. for you to think that words can be separated from meaning is nonsense. to say that words are without meaning is to portray our stupitidy and ignorance. here is what we mean by the bible as god's authoritative words.

 

quoting my from my previous post:

 

"let me tell you what we mean by authority. we ultimately believe that god alone has all the rights and authority to determine all things in religious matters. god, by virtue of who he is and what he does, has the right to establish all standards and practices in his church and the world. ko e fehu'i leva: 'oku angafefe hono excercise 'e he 'otua hono mafai 'i hono siasi? does he excercise it in a direct fashion? no, we believe that god has delegated that authority by creating the bible through the inspirational work of the holy spirit in human authors. so, because the bible is god's inspired words written by people inspired by the holy spirit, we affirm that the bible carries the same weight god himself would command if he were to speak to us today.

 

there is nothing in the above definition which suggest we have thrown out the baby together with the bath water. your claim that we focus more on the words and not the meaning is not something i have even hint at during the course of our discussion. god's words is the whole of the bible and what that implies is that god speaks to us through his words that have meanings in scripture.

 

koeha 'oku ke tukutaimi ai ho'o definition. ko e fk'ilonga ena ia lotopoha e hala ha definition.

 

next to your method>>>>

 

malo moe lotu.

skf

----- Original Message -----

From: Lotopoha Jeruel

To: tasil...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 10:03 AM

Subject: [tasilisili] Re: FOLOFOLA 'A E 'OTUA -Lotopoha

'oku fakafiefia ma'u pe sfaupula ho'o kei pine mai, pea 'oku fakalotolahi 'aupito ia. "stand clear" kau hoko atu,

 

'oku 'ikai ke u tokonga au pe ko e ho'o post biblical authority pe ko e haa etc, he 'oku 'osi mahino pe ia mo ho'ataa malie. ko e palopalema ko hono use e TOHITAPU mo TAUKAVE'I hono MAFAI 'oku MAFAI TATAU mo e 'OTUA.

 

'oku taau ke MANATU'I ma'u pe ko e TOHITAPU ko e "collection of diverse texts". Any view of scripture which focuses on the words of the text or on the form of the TOHITAPU rather than on its MESSAGE mo 'ene "TUHU ki he 'OTUA' (witness to God behind the words as I have oftenly said before) 'aia 'oku 'AAKITU'A MAI he words, text or form, paralyses the text itself and God. It places the MAFAI of the TOHITAPU in the wrong places.

 

Na'a ke fehu'i foki kiate au kimu'a ke 'oatu 'eku 'UHINGA ki he MAFAI 'o e TOHITAPU, ka 'oku ou ongo'i 'oku te'eki taimi ke 'oatu ia. 'Oku taau ke mu'omu'a atu 'eta fe'inasi'aki he ngaahi me'a ko eni koe'uhi 'e tokoni ia ki he'eku tali ki ho'o fehu'i koia.

 

Ne u lau foki kimu'a he fakapotalanoa kuo ta fai, 'oku 'ikai taau ia ke pehee 'oku ou "say no" ki he 'OTUA 'i ha'aku SAY NO ki ha ngaahi lea he TOHITAPU. He 'oku MOU TAUKAVE 'o PIKIMATE he 'uhinga fakafukahivai ko eni ko e fo'i kohi kotoa pe he TOHITAPU kuo fakamanava'i...etc. Ka ko eni kuo ke afe 'o "stick" ki he ngaahi QUOTATION mo e NGAAHI LEA too mei he Fofonga 'o SISU. PINE ai kau hoko atu ki he konga 'o e 'uhinga 'o 'eku pehee SAY NO TO SOME words or phrases etc OF THE TOHITAPU DOES NOT MEANS THAT I AM SAYING NO TO GOD.

 

Fakatokanga'i hifo ange pe 'a e ongo text ko eni:

1). Mk 16:1-8; Mtt 28:1-8; Lk24:1-12; Sione 20:1-13

 

'Oku 'asi heni e ongo issue mahu'inga 'e 2 ke tokanga'i felave'i mo e TAHA'I POU MAHU'INGA 'o e Tui Faka-Kalisitiane, 'a e TOETU'U.

A). TAIMI: vakai hifo ki he "tala taimi 'a e ngaahi kosipeli ni". 'Oku feto'oaki mo kehekehe ki he FEITU'U TATAU, KAKAI TATAU PE (characters), mo e TOETU'U TATAU.

E). KAU FEFINE (tokolahi): tokanga atu ki he talanoa fefine 'a e ngaahi kosipeli ni. 'Oku feto'oaki mo kehekehe ki he KAKAI TATAU (characters), FEITU'U TATAU, TOETU'U TATAU.

 

Fakatonga'i 'oku kehe 'aupito e Feto'oaki ia ko eni, mei he FAKAFETAULAKI mo e FAKAHOA TALANOA kimu'a ne 'ohake he TEPILE 'o e TASILISILI ki he TAKAI LOLO 'a e fefine. He na'e FEITU'U kehekehe pe ia, mo e kakai kehekehe, 'i he fa'ahinga levolo kehekehe 'o e anga e nofo fakatatau ki he talanoa ko ia.

 

'Oku tokoni e ongo me'a 'e 2 ko ena ki he'eku fakatalanoa atu 'a 'eku aware ki hono ngaue'aki e fa'ahinga TAUKAVE ko ia 'oku MAFAI TATAU E 'OTUA mo e TOHITAPU pea pehe ki ha'aku SAY NO ki ha ngaahi lea he (na'e lele e sipi etc - remind you once again) TOHITAPU.

 

Ko e FAKAMATALA ia 'a e Fa'utohi 'oku 'iai e issue ko ena. Ka te u 'oatu pe 'a e text 'e TAHA ko e FOLOFOLA TONU 'A SISU.

 

2). Vakai atu ki he kosipeli, (Ma'ake 2:25-26, Matiu 12:1-8, Luke 6:1-5), ko eni e folofola 'a Sisu 'ia Ma'ake,

 

And he (Jesus) said to them, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need of food? He entered the house of God, when Abiathar was a high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and he gave some to his companions".(v.26) 

 

'Oku reject 'e Matiu mo Luke 'a e konga ko ena kia ABIATHAR. My own judment, Matiu and Luke knew for sure this QUOTATION was wrong (See 1Samiuela 21:1-6).

 

FEHU'I: Ko hai 'oku LOI? Ko hai te tau tukuaki'i? Ko Ma'ake pe ko SISU? Te ke tu'u mei FEE he anga pehee na 'a e TOHITAPU? Kataki 'o fakakaukau ange ki ai.

 

Ko e 'uhinga ena ne u pehee ai 'e au 'e MORE SAFE ke piki ki he 'UHINGA kae tuku e piki ki he Written Documents he 'oku malava 'e ha fa'utohi ia pe ko e taha taipe etc. neongo ko ha faifekau (prof. dr. ma. etc.) pe taha 'o e kau 'Apositolo (ma'ake, paula, etc.) 'o mimio e FOLOFOLA ki ha'anau personal pe 'anautolu 'o  'ikai ko ha me'a ia mei he 'OTUA. Ka neongo ia 'oku takitaha mo'ona pe, 'eeh! Kataki, te u koma atu hee kae tuli ki he'eku lifi na'a 'alu.

 

'ofa atu mo e lotu,

lotopha.

[Sepesi]

On Tue, 2008-05-20 at 10:03 -0700, Lotopoha Jeruel wrote:

'Oku tokoni e ongo me'a 'e 2 ko ena ki he'eku fakatalanoa atu 'a 'eku
aware ki hono ngaue'aki e fa'ahinga TAUKAVE ko ia 'oku MAFAI TATAU E
'OTUA mo e TOHITAPU pea pehe ki ha'aku SAY NO ki ha ngaahi lea he (na'e
lele e sipi etc - remind you once again) TOHITAPU.

--------------------------

On Wed, 2008-05-21 at 14:43 -0700, sfaupula wrote:

> lotopoha, it would be helpful if you can explain why you think these
> differing, yet not contradictory, explanations of the time the women
> went to the tomb could support why the bible could not be the words of
> god. just because the various accounts vary in words does not
> determine your position, because what they say is correct in their own
> right. further, they do not condradict one another when we do examine
> them closely.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Malo ongo tangata, pea taa he me'a faka'ofo'ofa ko e fe'inasi'aki, ka ko
e sio mei he kopate keke fktau koeni he 'Otu Fale "malo e lelei" he Hala
Taufa'ahau ke fakalaka atu ki he Veimau 'a Takapuna mo e kautama ko ee
he Falefaiva Tali'eva; ngalingali, 'oku 'ikai tui e tokotaha ki he
"Tohitapu" ko e"Folofola 'a e 'Otua", pea 'oku Tui 'a e taha koe
"Folofola 'a e 'Otua".

Ko 'eku fanongo talanoa leva 'oku pehe ni 'osi mahino 'aupito 'a e
taukave he tu'unga 'oku mo 'iai pea malo hono kei fakaili mai sfaupula
'a e Tohitapu ko e Folofola 'a e 'Otua, ka 'oku 'ikai teu lave'i pe'e
fefe ha Potungoue he'ikai tenau tali e Tohtapu ko e Folofola mo e mafai
'o e 'Otua ,he ko e Mafai ia 'oku hoko mai ai 'a e Laumalie Ma'oni'oni
hei'ilo......

ka e 'ai ha ipu tii pea tokanga na'a tomui ho'omo ngaahi ngaue fakaako,
ka e toki hoko atu.

Takamuli

[sfaupula]

'oku mahino ko e taukave 'a e lotopoha 'oku pehe ni: "'oku'ikai mafai tatau
'a e tohitapu moe 'otua." ko e palopalema he 'oku 'ikai ke ne fkma'ala'ala
'ene fkkaukau pe 'oku 'uhinga ki he ha 'ene pehe 'oku 'ikai mafai tatau e
tohitapu moe 'otua. ko 'ene 'uhinga nai eni? 1) ko e 'otua 'oku ne malava 'e
ia 'a e ngaahi ngaue mana kae 'ikai lava ia 'e he tohitapu? pe ko e mafai 'o
e 'otua 'oku 'uhinga ki ai 'a lotopoha 'oku tu'u ia 'i he fkkaukau ko e
'otua 'oku ne malava ke fktupu 'a mamani mo pukepuke ka e 'ikai lava ia 'e
he tohitapu? kapau ko e 'uhinga eni 'a lotopoha, pea ko e me'a kehe 'aupito
ia mei he me'a kou 'uhinga au ki ai. pea neu 'osi fkma'ala'ala eni kia
lotopoha. ko e mafai 'oku ou 'uhinga ki ai 'oku nofo loto ai e fkkaukau 'o e
lea or words. hange pe ko ee ka lea mai 'ete pule he ngaue, 'oku nofo 'i
he'ene lea hono mafai. ko hono 'ave 'a e fkkaukau koeni ki he tohitapu 'aki
e mahino ko e tohitapu ko e folofola 'a e 'otua, pea 'oku mafai tatau leva
'a e tohitapu mo e 'otua he ko 'ene lea mai 'a 'ene folofola.

ko e fu'u me'a mahino 'oku talanoa mai ai 'a lotopoha ia, he 'oku tali 'e he
kalisitiane kotoa pe ko e 'otua 'oku 'i ai 'a e fkmo'ui pea ko ia 'oku pule
ki he me'a kotoa. this does not jeopardize the idea that god's authority is
in his words (scripture), but lotopoha continues to think otherwise.

ko e palopalema 'o e taukave 'a lotopoha ko e feinga ke tatala e 'otua mei
he 'ene folofola. pea 'oku ha mahino ia 'i he feinga ke fkmatala'i ko e
tohitapu ko e witness pe ki he 'otua 'o hange ha tohi na'e hiki 'e ha kakai
'o fekau'aki moe 'otua. 'i he fkkaukau koeni 'oku toki fehekeaki holo
ai e ngaahi fkmatala e fa'ahinga taukave 'a lotopoha mei he 'ikai fe'unga e
tohitapu ke mafai tatau mo e 'otua, koe'uhi ko e me'a mate 'a e tohi pea mei
ai ki he fkkaukau 'oku ma'olunga fau 'a sihova ke nofo hono mafai 'i ha
ngaahi lea pea mei ai ki he fkkaukau 'oku fehalaaki e ngaahi texts.

tuku keu ki'i fkkake atu ai pe heni ki he method 'oku ngaue'aki 'e lotopoha.
ko e founga ngaue 'oku ngaue mai 'aki 'e lotopoha ko e founga ia 'oku
fk'ofo'ofa 'i he mala'e 'o e fekumi ki he ngaahi me'a 'i he kuohili ka kuo
tau ma'u
hono ngaahi tala 'i ha ngaahi tohi. pe ko e tohitapu, pe ko ha tohi pe.

sai, ko e fk'ofo'ofa 'o e ngaahi founga fekumi koeni ko e 'omi 'e he ngaahi
biblical criticisms ha faingamalie mo'o kitautolu ke tau sioloto atu ki he
'atakai ne mapuna hake mei ai e ngaahi talanoa 'oku tau maheni mo ia 'i he
tohitapu. ko e taha, 'oku tau malava ke tau fkofiofi 'etau ngaahi fkkaukau
ki he anga 'a hono fokotu'utu'u 'e he kau hikitohi e ngaahi talanoa 'oku tau
maheni mo ia 'i he tohitapu. ko e taha 'oku malava ketau 'ilo'i, 'o fou 'i
he ngaahi biblical criticisms, e ngaahi fkmatala ne fktefito ai e ngaahi
talanoa 'o fekau'aki mo sisu. 'oku lahi 'a hono ngaahi fk'ofo'ofa. ko e
palopalema ko e pehe ko ee 'e he tokolahi, kau ai hoku tokoua koeni ko
lotopoha, 'oku malava 'e he ngaahi bib. critcisms 'o determine 'a e fkkaukau
'oku 'ikai ko e folofola 'a e 'otua e tohitapu. 'oku sai pe 'a e fkkaukau ia
koeni 'o kapau 'oku o fktaha e founga 'oku assess 'aki e ngaahi texts that
are supposedly incorrect together with intergrity and responsible criticism.
what i mean is we must treat the text which we are assessing on its own
terms and not force our modern methods on texts that were written before our
methods were born. by just making some comparison and decide the matter is
settle is not only irresponsible criticism but the intergrity of the method
when used by such people is put into question.

malo pesi

---

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sepesi" <sep...@nst.net.au>
To: <tasil...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 10:28 PM
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: FOLOFOLA 'A E 'OTUA -Lotopoha

>

[sfaupula]

kapau pe 'oku ki'i vevela e anga 'etau talanoa mo ki'i vilo-fenuiki e mata'i palau pea ke afe hake ki tafa'aki, he ko e issue koeni 'oku fkmamani lahi 'o fklaka atu he ki'i taputa 'oku pehe 'e he lokua ko e moana pe. me'a atu ki laipeli 'o toe fekumi he 'oku te'eki vaevaeua e me'a ia 'oku tau talanoa ai, fktatau ki he fu'u mala'e kuo ke afe'i hake kitautolu ki ai. 'oku ke feinga mai ke tau talanoa he me'a fkmamani lahi, pea ke kataki 'o tui mai ha teunga va'inga tau fkfonua, kae to'o aa e tupenu mo e teunga ke va'inga 'aki he paaka. 'oua e kohu!

 

ko e founga 'oku ke fononga mai ai tokoua ko e founga ia 'a e tangata. pea ko e fkmahamahalo pe mo ia 'a e tangata. ka 'oku 'ikai 'uhinga ia keu ta'efk'apa'apa'i ai. ko e founga ia ne fkkaukau'i lelei 'e he kakai ne nau ngaue'aki honau 'atamai ne 'omi 'e he 'otua. koeha kuo ke si'i toe foki ai ko e 'o talaloto, hili ko ia kuo tau to atu ki he kulifa.

 

fokotu'u mai pe ho'o ngaahi texts pea ke fkkaukau'i mai 'aki pe 'i he founga 'a e tangata he ko e biblical criticisms ko e fokotu'utu'u pe 'e he tangata. ko e 'uluaki me'a pe ia 'oku fkmahino'i mo te ako he bs205... malie lotopoha!

 

ko e lao 'o e me'a ko e talanoa ke te fokotu'u mai ha me'a pea te ki'i feinga pe fkmatala'i. hange koeni. kuo ke pehe ku ou fk'ikai'i e me'a neu tu'u ai. 'o fe fe??????????? explain ke mahino ki he kakai 'oku ke pehe 'oku mahu'inga ke nau mahino'i e me'a 'oku tau talanoa ai.

 

kimu'a pea tau toki hoko atu, tuku mai ki loto ho'o 'uhinga ki he mafai pea mo e 'ikai ke mafai tatau e tohitapu moe 'otua. in what sense do you think scripture is not god's authoritative words and how that may have a bearing on the issue of bible authority. i already know that you think the bible is only authoritative when the holy spirit sort of enter and exit the book. something you have yet to fully explain. what is you definition of authority?

 

don't you think it's a bit unfair to discuss a topic without letting the rest know where you're coming from and where you're heading? transparency determines the integrity of our position. kau ai moe fehu'i koeni: ko hai ko aa ho hingoa? hahahaha! kapau ko e popao mo'oni 'oku ke ngaue'aki, kataki 'o 'ai ke 'ilo 'e he kakai 'oku ke pehe 'oku mahu'inga 'i he paenga ni ke nau 'ilo'i ko hai koe. ko e kaveinga koula ia 'o e feitu'u ni ko e feohi ke tau'ataina. kae 'oua e fkfufu tautoitoi. hahaha! ka e hoko atu e talanoa ia lotopoha.

 

skf

----

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Lotopoha Jeruel

To: tasil...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2008 6:17 AM

Subject: [tasilisili] Re: FOLOFOLA 'A E 'OTUA -Lotopoha

malie sfaupula pea ngali ia ko e scholar biblical koe, pea 'oku fakafiefia ia. te u ki'i tuti atu hee na'a 'alu e lelue 'eeh! stand clear please..,

 

sfaupula ko ho'o ngaahi lakulaku ko ena kuo fai mai ko e ngaahi fakamahalo pe 'a'au. kapau 'oku ke pehe 'oku 'iai e ngaahi "possibility" ki hano fix e ngaahi me'a ko ena ne ke lave ki ai fekau'aki mo e fa'ahinga fepakipaki pehe na 'a e konga he TOHITAPU hange ko ia kuo ke refer kia jh, KO E HAA NA'E PAASI AI PEA CANONIZE KE mou taukave mai ai 'oku 'ikai ha'ane fehalaaki. malie ange ho'o saiti he lele 'a e kau va'inga he STATE OF ORIGIN. saisaiti lelei pe he 'oku malie, pea kuo ke saiti mai mei he FF ki he FM, pea ko eni kuo a'u atu ho'o saiti ki he motu'a lea mo e ngaahi source mei tu'a he TOHITAPU. tonu 'aupito ke ke MAN OF THE MATCH KOE!!! FEHU'I,  ko e siati hoko ki fee? tokanga na'a te ke mate hela'ia he saiti noa'ia!!! 

 

ko e taha, 'oua 'e toe kola mai e kakai (jh), tu'u mai pe koe he ko e siipinga ena ia 'a e kau leka 'eeh! 'oua e 'ita  'eeh!

 

'Oku fakafiefia ho'o ala ki he Kalisi,pe ko ha toe lea ange 'oku ke pehe 'oku ou masivesiva ai. he 'e kei 'alo'alo pe 'eku ki'i vakavaka 'aamei ai. pea 'e mole ke mama'o ha'aku ala ki he lea 'oku 'ikai fu'u mahino ki he kakai kehe, ka TE U FEINGA KE LILIU MAI MEI HE GREEK AND HEBREW, LATIN etc e fo'i lea ki he lea faka-tonga pe fakapalangi ke lave ai e kakai kehe. he 'oku 'ikai ko ha'ata ki'i peito e website ko eni ke patoo mo fa'iteliha ai.

 

ko 'eku fakama'opo'opo ki ho'o tali mai ko eni, kuo ke SAY NO ki ho'o me'a na'a ke TAUKAVE'I ka ke HIKI MAI 'o ta looua he ki'i popao ko eni. ka neongo ia, te u kei lakulaku atu pe e ngaahi text 'oku 'ASI AI E NGAAHI MATAVAIVAI 'e ala lava ke pehe ko e palopalema 'o e TOHITAPU. he ko e OLA ia 'o e ngaue 'a e tangata pea kuopau pe ke 'asi ai e ngaahi me'a ko eni 'oku ou feinga atu ai.

 

te u koma hee 'o toki hoko atu mo 'eku ngaahi text, kae tuli e leluee,

 

'ofa atu mo e lotu.

[Sepesi]

On Wed, 2008-05-21 at 21:33 -0700, sfaupula wrote:
> tuku keu ki'i fkkake atu ai pe heni ki he method 'oku ngaue'aki 'e
> lotopoha.
> ko e founga ngaue 'oku ngaue mai 'aki 'e lotopoha ko e founga ia 'oku
> fk'ofo'ofa 'i he mala'e 'o e fekumi ki he ngaahi me'a 'i he kuohili ka
> kuo tau ma'u hono ngaahi tala 'i ha ngaahi tohi. pe ko e tohitapu, pe
> ko ha tohi pe.

> ---------------------------------------------------------

Malo Veni.

'Oku ou huu atu pe ke mo mea'i 'oku lelei e anga ho'omo talanoa, pea
'oku ou/mau fanongo faka'auliliki ki ai. 'Oku fakamataapule 'aupito 'a e
founga talanoa 'a Lotopoha pea pehe ki ho'o tali talanoa.

Ko e fai melino pehe 'a e talnoa pea 'oku te ako e me'a mei ai. Na'aku
malie'ia foki 'i he taha 'oe ngaahi taukave 'a Lotopoha, Folofola 'a
Sisu: kuo mou hakule 'a e tohitapu 'o 'ilo 'oku 'ikai tu'u ai 'a e mo'ui
ta'engata........., ka e to e malie foki ho'o tali fakafoki 'i ho'o
vakai'i 'a e mohenga 'o e folofola ko ia...

Ko homau taimi faifekau 'o mautolu mo King(Tu'i Tovo) 'i he taimi pe ko
ee 'o Sisu, 'ikai to e oo ia ki ha 'Apiako Tohitapu ko e lava pe 'o
tele'i ha koniteina kape 'a ha Palesiteni he Siasi, ko 'emau Kola
hinehina leva ia ka kuo lahi foki e Kemikale 'o 'iai eni ia mo e ako
tohitapu he he he !!

hoko atu e talanoa na'a kuo loloa e ipu tii, pea fiu tali mai mo
Lotopoha.

Sepesi.

[sfaupula]

From: Lotopoha Jeruel

 

'Oku fakafiefia ho'o ala ki he Kalisi,pe ko ha toe lea ange 'oku ke pehe 'oku ou masivesiva ai. he 'e kei 'alo'alo pe 'eku ki'i vakavaka 'aamei ai. pea 'e mole ke mama'o ha'aku ala ki he lea 'oku 'ikai fu'u mahino ki he kakai kehe, ka TE U FEINGA KE LILIU MAI MEI HE GREEK AND HEBREW, LATIN etc e fo'i lea ki he lea faka-tonga pe fakapalangi ke lave ai e kakai kehe. he 'oku 'ikai ko ha'ata ki'i peito e website ko eni ke patoo mo fa'iteliha ai.

----

 

ko fe me'a 'i he'eku fkmatala 'oku ki'i faingata'a ke mahino? kapau ko e ngaahi me'a koeni teu toe ki'i fkma'ala'ala atu ke mahino.

 

(ἐπὶ ᾿Αβιαθὰρ ἀρχιερέως, ejpi Abiaqar ajrcierew). ko e konga eni 'oku liliu 'e molitoni 'o pehe "'i he kuonga na'e taula'eiki ai 'a 'apiata" (mk.2:26), pea na'a ku lave ki ai 'i he lea fkpapalangi - "when abiathar was high priest".

 

(D W {271}; {A C Θ Π Σ Φ 074 and many others})

ko e ngaahi fk'ilonga koeni ko e ngaahi fknounou pe ia ki he anga hono organise 'o e ngaahi manuscripts (variant readings) pea mo e anga honau mafai 'i he tafa'aki 'o e liliu lea pea mo e feitu'u 'oku ma'u ai, etc. mo'oni 'oku meimei 'ikai ha'ane felave'i ki he talanoa 'oku fai, ka ko 'eku fokotu'u ia kia lotopoha ke tokanga he'ene ngaue mai 'aki e ngaahi biblical criticisms, he 'oku pau ke engage ia mo e ngaahi me'a koeni. something he seems to brush aside for the sake of trying to establish an ambiguous claim.

 

ko e ngaahi fehu'i lelei 'oku tuku mai 'e lotopoha pea 'oku ou fk'amu pe 'e lava ke ne engage moe potu tohi 'oku ne filifili mei ai, 'aki 'ene consider 'a e toenga e ngaahi fkkaukau ki he literary style, type of narrative in which the texts belong, what historical situation which the texts came from, the audience which the texts originally addressed, etc, before he asserts that by comparing the texts proves his point. that is what people refer to as responsible criticism.

 

skf

[Sepesi]

"Ai e kataki ke lahi lotopoha, 'oua leva e va'inga sino he 'oku kei
malie'ia pe kau mamata , tukukehe kapau na'e va'inga sino atu mo Veni,
ka 'oku kei fai e muimui talanoa.

Takamuli.
----------------------------------------

On Wed, 2008-05-21 at 06:17 -0700, Lotopoha Jeruel wrote:
> malie sfaupula pea ngali ia ko e scholar biblical koe, pea 'oku
> fakafiefia ia. te u ki'i tuti atu hee na'a 'alu e lelue 'eeh! stand
> clear please.., sfaupula ko ho'o ngaahi lakulaku ko ena kuo fai
> mai ko e ngaahi fakamahalo pe 'a'au. kapau 'oku ke pehe 'oku 'iai e
> ngaahi "possibility" ki hano fix e ngaahi me'a ko ena ne ke lave ki ai
> fekau'aki mo e fa'ahinga fepakipaki pehe na 'a e konga he TOHITAPU
> hange ko ia kuo ke refer kia jh, KO E HAA NA'E PAASI AI PEA CANONIZE
> KE mou taukave mai ai 'oku 'ikai ha'ane fehalaaki. malie ange ho'o
> saiti he lele 'a e kau va'inga he STATE OF ORIGIN. saisaiti lelei pe
> he 'oku malie, pea kuo ke saiti mai mei he FF ki he FM, pea ko eni kuo
> a'u atu ho'o saiti ki he motu'a lea mo e ngaahi source mei tu'a he
> TOHITAPU. tonu 'aupito ke ke MAN OF THE MATCH KOE!!! FEHU'I, ko e
> siati hoko ki fee? tokanga na'a te ke mate hela'ia he saiti noa'ia!!!
> ko e taha, 'oua 'e toe kola mai e kakai (jh), tu'u mai pe koe he ko e

> siipinga ena ia 'a e kau leka 'eeh! 'oua e 'ita 'eeh! 'Oku

> fakafiefia ho'o ala ki he Kalisi,pe ko ha toe lea ange 'oku ke pehe
> 'oku ou masivesiva ai. he 'e kei 'alo'alo pe 'eku ki'i vakavaka 'aamei
> ai. pea 'e mole ke mama'o ha'aku ala ki he lea 'oku 'ikai fu'u mahino
> ki he kakai kehe, ka TE U FEINGA KE LILIU MAI MEI HE GREEK AND HEBREW,
> LATIN etc e fo'i lea ki he lea faka-tonga pe fakapalangi ke lave ai e
> kakai kehe. he 'oku 'ikai ko ha'ata ki'i peito e website ko eni ke

> patoo mo fa'iteliha ai. ko 'eku fakama'opo'opo ki ho'o tali mai ko

[Sione Mauifanga]

Kou fokotu'u atu ke mo hiki aa ki ha kaveinga e taha, he ko ena kuo mo tau hamu pe he mui'i maea e taha.

 

maui

[sfaupula]

malo lotopoha pea kou fokotu'u atu ke fokotu'u mu'a ha pathway out of the theological morass created by modern and post modern criticisms and theologians.

 

'oku mahino pe kiate au 'oku ke tu'u mai 'i he tafa'aki pe taha 'o e evangelical camps ko ia 'oku nau feinga ke safeguard e validity of god's revelation, but we believe that by deserting the battle is to move away from jesus', the apostle's and the biblical author's attitude towards scripture.

 

i am hoping that we dig a bit deeper by asking this question: "what kind of christian faith that is unable to accomplish a relationship with god on the same terms that we can see in the experience of the writers of scripture, jesus and the apostles?" (p. jensen)

 

answering this question i believe will enable us to move forward from the theological and hermeneutical morass created by modern and post modern theologians and criticisms.

 

i have already dealt with your passages below and regurgitating will prove nothing. but to point out they simply do not seriously put into question the view that the bible is the very authoritative words of god.

 

skf

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Lotopoha Jeruel

To: tasil...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 1:30 AM

Subject: [tasilisili] Re: FOLOFOLA 'A E 'OTUA -Lotopoha

malo masi'i sfaupula e kei pine mai, pea ke 'ai e kataki ke si'i. 'oua 'e 'itaa pea 'oua 'e hoha'a!!

'oku ou fiefia pe au ho'o kei fie talanoa mai he 'oku fakalata pea fakamafana.

 

tuku mu'a ke u hoko atu 'aki eni...,

 

sfaupula ne u pehe 'e au kuo a'u ho'o fakakaukau ki he'eku fatufatu talanoa atu mei he kamata kia koe pea pehe kia tino, 'a e 'uhinga 'eku lave'i e LAU 'a tino (tuku e folofola 'i 'api ko e lia'ki ia 'o e 'OTUA). ka ta ko 'ene haa mai 'eni kiate au 'oku te'eki mahino ia kiate koe. ko e 'uhinga eni sfaupula ne u lave'i ai e lau 'a tino:

 

1). ko e part of my awareness ki he fokotu'u talanoa ne fai 'e tino pe kuo ne cover up mai e ngaahi area 'oku ke pehee ko eni 'oku te'eki keu fai (check e ngaahi historical background 'o e Tohi, talanoa, purpose 'o e talanoa, compare some different versions of Bible, check the terminololgies background - greek, hebrew , latin, french, english etc., other comments about the same text to be used like commentaries, Dictionaries, and other sources outside from the TOHITAPU to ensure that he is not misinterpreting the TOHITAPU.

 

2). it was a part of my assisting him (tino).

3). I was so happy to talk about this ISSUE for I know for sure the majority of the Tongans are not very clear with "what does it really means to be the AUTHORITY OF THE TOHITAPU and HOW that AUTHORITY relates with the Living GOD? faka'ofa ange kapau 'oku 'ikai mahino ia ki ha taha na'e ako'i mo teu'i. 'Ikai ia ko ia pe foki, ka 'oku kehe pe 'a e fa'ahinga view ia mo e vakai 'a e kau scholar tokolahi ki he MAFAI 'o e TOHITAPU 'o tefito he'enau fa'ahinga WAY OF APPROACH pe ko 'enau METHOD OF INTERPRETATION.

 

Kapau ne ke lau tokanga 'eku ngaahi fakamatala kimu'a ne u 'osi 'oatu ai e KONGA 'eku DEFINITION mo e TALI ki he me'a 'oku ke VIVILI mai ai. Ko e ngaahi HUMAN ELEMENTS in the TOHITAPU are very clear to be seen and understood (1 Kolinito 7:10, 12, 25, 40). ko e personal opinion ia 'a e 'Apositolo; pea pehee kia (John 2:23) refers to signs that Jesus had performed in Jerusalem, yet no signs related to that point.(I have said this before -remind you once again) - bear in mind that you are not going to force me to your own way of approaching the TOHITAPU, but we have to put in what we have discovered in TOHITAPU itself as a RESULT OF USING DIFFERENT sources that are relating what is more reliable and very close to the original.

 

Na'aku tala atu foki kimu'a ko e Tui Faka-kalisitiane 'oku 'IKAI MAKATU'UNGA IA 'i ha PERFECT, ERROR-FREE WRITTEN DOCUMENTS but UPON THE VALIDITY of its CENTRAL MESSAGE. (pea 'oku ma'uhala heni e kakai ki he fakakaukau 'o e MAFAI 'o e TOHITAPU, he 'oku nau NUSI fakataha ai e inspiration mo e VALIDITY).

 

sfaupula, ko e fehu'i "what sort of authority it is?(MAFAI 'o e TOHITAPU).

 

ko e lau 'a'aku we are inescapable from the HUMAN ELEMENT appears in the TOHITAPU.

 

KO E TALANOA 'O E TOETU'U (kau fefine mo e taimi)

 

1). dawn (te'eki hopo e la'aa) (Mtt 28:1) - time of the day when light first appears in the sky before SUN RISES. KAU FEFINE TOKO 2

2).when the SUN HAD RISEN (kuo hopo e la'aa) Mk 16:2 - kau fefine 'e toko 3, ongo Mele mo Salome 'ae ngaahi hingoa heni

3). early dawn  toe mahino ange ia pea play safe 'a Luke ia heni (Luke 24:1-3, 10; 23:55) - kau fefine tokotolu pe lahi hake, ongo Mele mo SOANA 'a e ngaahi hingoa heni.

4). early, while it was still dark (John 20:1) - One woman

 

'Oku te'eki ke fakapapau'i mai 'e ha taha ia 'a e 'uhinga 'o e feheke'aki ko eni, ngata he ngaahi fakamahamahalo 'a e fa'ahinga 'oku ala falala'anga ki ha 'uhinga. Ko e source mahu'inga hono ngaue'aki felave'i 'a e ngaahi tohi he TOHITAPU ki ha tu'unga pehe ni, pea kau atu ki ai mo ha source mei tu'a 'oku ala tokoni e.g, 'APUKALIFA or pe ko e Siu ko ia SOSEFUSI etc. Ko e Kosipeli pe 'a Sione 'oku mahino  ko 'ene tokanga 'ana ko e "main character" ko e Mele ko ee 'oku ne ngaue'aki, ka ki he "TAIMI" 'oku tatau ia ai mo e toenga 'o e ngaahi kosipeli siofakataha he fihi.

 

Koe folofola ko ee 'a Sisu 'ia Ma'ake felave'i mo 'Apaiata, ko e fo'i matu'aki fehalaaki 'aupito pe ia 'a Ma'ake, fakatatau ki he ngaahi source 'oku ke pehe 'oku alama'u mai ke fakatonuhia'i 'aki e "SIPINGA HIKITOHI KO ENI". I am not going to waste my time defending the TOHITAPU with such kind of approach your are using, instead of its "CENTRAL MESSAGE" THAT IS STILL VALIDITY.

 

Kataki 'oua te ke ma'uhala 'o pehee 'oku 'ikai keu vakavaka'i'i holo e ngaahi source kehe mo e ngaahi tafatafa'aki, ko 'eku ngaahi me'a kuo 'oatu kuo 'osi 'a sivi ia 'e SIVIVATU  mei VUNIVATUTI TAVUTAVU...!!! 'I he MAFAI 'O LM, 'oku hoko ai e TOHITAPU 'o fatongia'aki e TAUMU'A ko hono fakafelaave'i e tangata mo e fefine ki he 'OTUA MO'UI, pea oo mo ia e Fakafo'ou Mo'ui.

 

'Oku kehe 'aupito 'eni ('eku lau 'i 'olunga) ia sfaupula mo e fa'ahinga fakakaukau ko ia 'oku fai 'e he kau BIBLICISTS 'e ni'ihi 'o pehe "God dictated the words TOHITAPU to the biblical writers, who acted as secretaries (I hope you are not One of Them)." Taimi lahi 'oku 'ikai ke nau pu'aki hangatonu mai ka 'oku 'asi ia mei he fa'ahinga fakalea mo e fa'ahinga fakakaukau mo e taukave 'oku nau fai hangee ko hano "defend 'o e Tohitapu" 'o pehe 'oku error-free, 'o hangee ia ai ko e TOHITAPU na'e fou hifo pe ia mei 'OLUNGA hangatonu (resulting from its supernatural origin). Ko e fa'ahinga taukave FUOLOA foki eni na'e ngaue'aki 'e he kau protestant apologists he lotu 'o pehe, "Since God is considered the author of TOHITAPU is a straightforward literal sense, it is aid to be without error. TOHITAPU is without error not only in what it teaches about God and human salvation, but also in all matters of history  and science of which it speaks.

 

 'Oku 'asi mai ai e palopalema ko eni:

1). kuo 'ikai ke kei inspiration kae inspiredness e me'a ia.

2). 'oku 'ikai lerva ke kei defend e Tui Faka-Kalisitiane ia heni kae TANGI ki he DOCTRINE of INFALLIBILITY (vakai mai ki heni e Katolika Loma ia 'o KATA, he kuo fehi'a e Palotisani ia he Infallibility 'a e Pope (see pope 1870) kae 'ohake pe ke INFALIBILITY 'A TOHITAPU.

 

'oku ou tui 'e maa'u loloa, ka te u toki hoko atu ki he ngaahi text mo e matavaivai 'o e TOHITAPU 'AMUI ANGE.

 

'ofa tu mo e lotu,

lotopoha

[hamilto...@paradise.net.nz]

Malo Sione Mauifanga e fakatokanga. 'Oku tokolahi e kau memipa Tasilisili 'oku
nau lau pe pea toe ake e manatu ki he ta'u 'e 20-30 kuo situ'a mei
ai. 'Oku 'ikai kenau lea mai he 'oku nau ngaue'i 'a e ausia pea mo e mahino 'o
e kehekehe fakahiki tohi ke tokoni'i 'aki ha kakai.

Na'e 'aluange 'a e tangata'eiki ki Falemahaki ko e fietalanoa ki he Chaplain.
Ko e tangata'eiki ni kuo laui ta'u 'a 'ene nofo he ngaahi Falemahaki Mental
Health. Ko e konga eni 'ene talnoa: "'oku ou tui teu 'alu au ki HELI". Pea ne
talamai 'oku 'ikai ke ne toe ma'u loto 'e ia ha veesi meihe Tohi Tapu.
Na'aku talaange ki he tangata'eiki ni, 'i he taimi ni, oua 'e toe fakamanatu
ha veesi meihe Tohi Tapu ka ke feinga pe ke manatu'i, "Jesus loves you"

Ko e taha ena ia 'o e konga 'o e fusi maea 'oku ou nofo ai au he 'aho kotoa.

mo e lotu meihe Nursing Chapel
hausia

Quoting Lotopoha Jeruel <seluel...@gmail.com>:

> malo sione maui, ka 'e toe lelei ange kapau te ke huu hake 'o fusi atu
> e mui'i maea ko ena ke 'oua 'e ngatupe noa'ia holo; pe te ke langa mai 'e
> koe ha ki'i mata'iika mei he loto kupenga masi'i.

>
> 'ofa atu mo e lotu,

> lotopoha
>
>
> On 5/21/08, Sione Mauifanga <maui...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Kou fokotu'u atu *ke mo hiki aa* ki ha kaveinga e taha, he ko ena kuo

[Sami Pakofe]

 

Lotopoha::

  'a e 'uhinga 'eku lave'i e LAU 'a tino (tuku e folofola 'i 'api ko e lia'ki ia 'o e 'OTUA). 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ne 'iai e fa'a fakahua 'a Sione Taulahi 'i Fofo'anga kiha ki'ii tame'a 'oku " hoha'a mo 'ikaiongomalie", pea ohovale pe kuo ne huu kitu'a 'o ifi, pea ko'ene foki mai pe 'o pehee mai " kau tangata, koe finemotu'a ee meihe kaunga'api, 'oku ha'u koe kole mai, pe 'e lava nai ke toki fai ho'o mou "hae 'ato" 'a pongipongi , kae lava kenau mohe he 'oku fu'u fakatuli-telinga". Ne fai e kakata moe kaila atu e kau inukava, "kataki tangata'eiki, "'oku 'ikai ha fai ha "hae'ato heni" koeanga pe ia 'emau ki'i kau vauvau [ tame'a]...

 

koe faka'alo atu pe..........[ kae toe vakai'ii ange na'a koe 'uhinga 'a Tino  KIHE "FOLOFOLA" 'oku fakapunake ia 'o 'ikai 'uhinga ia kihe "hard copies"[tohitapu].

 

manatu 'oku ngofua pe 'ita, kae 'oua 'e fehi'a ee.......

 

sami.

[sfaupula]

ko fe ko aa ha tame'a 'oku ta'e hae 'ato fkongo? 'oku 'i ai pe mo 'emau kau hae 'ato heni! (misi tupou, kale, valu) kataki 'o 'oleva atu hono fkinu vai pala'i au mo lotopoha, he 'oku te'eki vaevaefangeau e me'a ia 'oku ma tatauasi (tickdock) fklaumalie ai mo lotopoha. he ko maua pe foki 'oku ma'u ai 'ema ifo'ia. hahahahahaha! 'ikai, 'oku tokoni pe ia kia kimaua.

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Sami Pakofe

To: tasil...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 6:44 PM

Subject: [tasilisili] Re: FOLOFOLA 'A E 'OTUA -Lotopoha

 

Lotopoha::

[Sione 'Atupuha Koloti]

malie e talanga kau tama pea 'oku tokoni,

ko e sapate 'eni 'o e "Lotomo'ua" "hoha'a" 'atamai ta'e manonga"  "fekamaaki" pea 'oku kau aipe mo e lotomo'ua ki he tu'unga 'o e scripture (inerrancy, authority, verbal and planery inspiration of  every word) pea 'oku fa'a taki atu 'e he fa'ahinga lotomo'ua ko 'eni 'o e tangata fifili ki he 'avanga femaleleaki hange ko e tonga 'a Mapa Puloka.

'ofa atu kihe'etau ngaue.

[sfaupula]

mahino pe 'oku 'ikai ko ha fu'u me'a eni ia 'oku fifili ki ai ha tokolahi hotau fanga tokoua, he 'oku te'eki keu fanongo au kuo puke 'avanga femaleleaki mai ha taha he ngaue mei hena. hahaha! tukukehe na 'oku tau poto pe ko aa hono fufuu'i. have a good wkend.

----- Original Message -----

From: Sione 'Atupuha Koloti

To: tasil...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 11:49 PM

Subject: [tasilisili] Re: FOLOFOLA 'A E 'OTUA -Lotopoha

[Sami Pakofe]

 

Lotopoha;;

malie ia, kae pango he ne 'osi tohi mai pe 'a tino 'o fakahoko mai, ko hono ngata'anga pe ia. ko e fakapunake 'eni ia he'eku ma'u vaivai, FOLOFOLA KIE, FOLOFOLA FALA, FOLOFOLA NGATU,. ko e ola ia e faingata'a fakanatula ne hoko 'i MIENIMA kae'uma'a 'a e mate tokolauimano ko ia 'i Siaina.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lotopoha, malo mu'a,  koe "fakahua neu fai koe me'a ia 'oku tau ui "koe-lea-tu'u" he fakatamaiki, pea "fakamatalili" ia kihe toenga 'oe ngaahi tu'unga he Sosaiete.......

kae 'oua   na'a 'iai ha "mo'utafu'ua" he talanoa 'oku mo fai mo Veni, he 'oku te'eki ke 'iai ha taimi ia e "ongo-tamaki" ai mo "le'o-ua" e talanoa fakalotu ha taimi... koha tau Faka-lakalaka'anga faka-'aho ia...

 

koe fakahua pe moe laku-laku loo 'oku fai.......

 

'ofa atu kihe faka'osinga 'oe uike ni..

 

sami.

 

 

 

[Sione Mauifanga]

Hausia malo e lave mai pea 'oku fakamafana 'aupito. Kou fakamolemole pe au kia Lotopoha mo Sfaupula he hange kuou ngali ngutu tamulea atu honau pangai, ka ko e anga ia 'eku vakai ki he talanga kuo fai. Faifekau, na'e 'ikai ko ha'aku fakatokanga ki he ongo tama, ka ko e matu'aki kole mei he takele hoku loto ke tau hiki aa. Na'e fokotu'u mai 'e lotopoha keu fusi 'e au e mui'i maea 'e taha ke 'oua 'e ngatupe noa'ia holo, ka 'oku ngalo 'ia lotopoha ko e kole atu 'a e tama 'oku lolotonga kau pe he fusi maea, ka na'aku kole ko 'eku manavasi'i na'a faifai 'ena tau fusi peau homo au, peau si'i faka'ofa.

 

I was sensing the debate in a very sinful way and I pray God to forgive me for that, pea ke lotu mai mo koe faifekau. He ko e kaveinga faingofua from the original ideas however, they built it in a very scholarly way which I believe it closes doors for others to come on board. To e faingata'a ange ko e a'u mai ki he uike Penitekosi kuo to e lea kehekehe 'etau talanga, 'o kau ai e hepelu mo e kaliki mo e latino mo e siamane moe ha fua. Sai, faifekau na'e kole mai a Lotopoha keu fokotu'u atu aa 'e au ha kaveinga 'e taha ke tau hiki ki ai. Pea kou fokotu'u atu e kaveinga ko eni ke tau hiki ki ai pea kou kole kia Sfaupula mo Lotopoha te mo laine mu'a mo ua heni. Kole kia Hausia he ko e kanisa tame'a ke mau laine mui mautolu, ke tau hiva he 'etau kaveinga fo'ou:

 

Lau e Tohitapu pea ke lotu ma'upe

Lotu ma'upe, lotu ma'upe

Lau e Tohitapu pea ke lotu ma'upe

Pea ke tupu, tupu, tupu

 

Kau tangata, malo ho'o mou lava mai, tau to e ako hiva pe he sapate kaha'u..

 

 

'ofa atu mo lotu

 

mauifanga

 

[sfaupula]

malo sione pea kataki pe mu'a 'o kamata'i atu e kaveinga fo'ou koeni 'i ha tepile fo'ou he 'oku tei vavevavea ngata e talanoa ia 'oku ou fai mo lotopoha. na'e fai fk-ku ha ako hiva he talanoa 'oku fai? ahahaha! tukukehe kapau ko e kau mai pe.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Sione Mauifanga

To: tasil...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 5:17 PM

Subject: [tasilisili] Re: FOLOFOLA 'A E 'OTUA -Lotopoha

[hamilto...@paradise.net.nz]

Saipe he 'e 'oku nofo ofi mai ki he Nursing Chapel 'a Dr Mafua O Ika Ta'ane,
Semisi Paluki, pea mo Mosese Tafuna. Pea 'e poupou mai 'a e Faifekau, Heneli
Vete pea mo Valu mei Tonga ki hano fakaafo.

Ko e taha ena 'o e ngaahi afo mo e faka'amu 'a e mo'ui faingata'a 'ia 'oku
hiki 'i he Prayer Book 'a e Nursing Chapel. Ko e vahevahe pea mo e kole tokoni
ka 'oku ou taipe'i ia 'o 'oatu ki he Tasilisili.

In memory of Joanna whose life was taken from her so senselessly and
tragically 14 years ago today aged only 16 years. It is with deep sadness I
remember you and grieve for you Joanna. I feel angry too that our world was
robbed of you, along with all the potential you had unfolding inside you.

14 years ago you shot for the stars 25 August 1993 and I have battled to live
with the scars. I think a person is designed to carry the load of the moment,
not the combined weight of a lifetime at once. The accumulated load of my
lifetime has, this year, seriously broken my bridge. But Joanna I want you to
know that as I'm painstakingly reconfiguring and reconstructing my bridge here
in hospital I am uncovering and finally revealing to myself all the precious
gifts you silently left with me.

Today I sense a tiny intermittent flutter inside me, it feels like a brand new
butterfly breaking out of the solid cocoon which has steadfastly contained
it. I'm precariously beginning to believe in myself and to think that my
precious new wings may yet unfurl, undamaged, and take me to places I've never
ventured to go.

After over a month here I am to be discharged home next week. I am so very
frightened God because I know I cannot continue this ongoing work alone. I
ask you please please ensure that I find all the assistance I need to continue
this tough and exhausting journey to the unfaltering conviction that I am
worthy of love. I have been so sensitively and lovingly opened up to this
possibility by the staff in my ward - the possibility that deep inside I will
find, and believe, that I am indeed worthy of love. I ask for your support at
this time, and also in the years ahead. Thank you. Gen.

Mo e lotu meihe kau faingata'ia 'o e Nursing Chapel
Kolo Kakala
hausia

[sfaupula]

malo faifekau pea kataki pe na'a 'oku ou lave atu au ha fu'u me'a 'oku
mama'o mei ho'o tokanga, ka 'oku 'i ai pe fk'amu te tau contribute mai ki he
fehu'i neu fokotu'u atu kimu'a na'a faifai pea toe fihi e ki'i tepile ne ma
fokotu'u mo lotopoha he fokotu'utu'u ako hiva 'a sione. ko e fehu'i:

"what kind of christian faith that is unable to accomplish a relationship
with god on the same terms that we can see in the experience of the writers
of scripture, jesus and the apostles?"

malo e ngaue mei hena,
skf

----- Original Message -----
From: <hamilto...@paradise.net.nz>
To: <tasil...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 6:04 PM
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: FOLOFOLA 'A E 'OTUA -Lotopoha

>

[hamilto...@paradise.net.nz]

'Oku 'iai pe taimi he ngaue kuou hange pe ko Tomasi.
Pea 'iai mo e ngaahi vahevahe mo e kakai faingata'a 'ia 'oku nau puke ki
he 'enau relationship mo e 'Otua. 'I he taimi tatau 'oku 'iai mo e kakai kuo
nau lotu 'o ta'u 60 pea tupu koso e ngaahi mahaki faka'auha pea 'ikai ke
lava 'o tali 'a e 'enau fifili pe 'oku 'a honau 'Otua.

'I he fakahoha'a malanga 'aneafi (Matiu 6:24-34) na'aku fiu he lotu mo e
fakakaukau loto pe ko e ha Good News ki he Context 'o e faingata'ia 'i
Falemahaki 'i he pehee 'e Matiu 6: Do Not WORRY. Ko e kakai 'oku nau 'i
Falemahaki 'oku nau WORRY he momeniti kotoa pe. Tau fakamalo 'oku 'iai 'a e
kakai 'oku nau puke ma'u 'enau tui pea nau identified mo Siope, pea 'oku 'iai
mo e kakai 'oku nau identified mo Tomasi, Mele Makitaline, pea mo si'i Simone
Pita etc.

mo e lotu
Nursing Chapel

[sfaupula]

malo ongo tama e tauhi mai 'etau me'a ni pea ko e ki'i afe mai pe 'o fkma'opo'opo hake e talanoa ki he tepile keoni kae tuku 'ata pe tepile 'a tevita 'ia kolinito. ko e lea tu'u pe kae tuli'i e ki'i fatongia. toki kau atu 'a nai ange...

 

cheers

skf

---------------------------

 

from Lotopoha:

 

malo mu'a e tau mo e ngaue mei homou ngaahi tuliki takitah pea fakafeta'i ki he 'Otua he kei fola taimi mo e faingamlie ma'a kitautolu neongo e 'ikai ha femaataaki. tangi, kata, 'ehee, fola, tangulu, siuhu, 'ita, mamahi, fakafulofula, fakamatalili, fakaoli, fakatomaatoato, fiefia, longo, lea, 'i heni, 'i hena, 'i koo, 'iai etc. ka 'oku tau kei 'i vaka pe.

 

tulou atu hee kau ki'i tokanga atu kia sfaupula. malo masi'i e tau mo e fakapinapinanga mei hena pea malo e lotu mo e fakahikihiki 'eiki.

 

sfaupula ko e fehu'i kuo ke 'ohake 'oku malie pea mahu'inga foki mei he tuliki 'e taha ke fai ai ha taulafolafo. ka 'oku ou faka'amu ke toe ki'i sipisipi ikiiki ange koe'uhi he 'e tokoni pe.

 

Ko ho'o fehu'i: What kind of Christian Faith that is unable to accomplish a relationship with God on the same terms that we can see in the experience of the writers of the Scripture, Jesus and the Apostles?

 

Sfaupula 'oku ou vakavaki atu au ki he fiema'u 'a e fehu'i ko eni, 'oku ne 'eke'i ai e ngaahi FAKAMAMAFA TAKITAHA 'o e ngaahi fungavaka faka-Kalisitiane. 'Oku mahino ia pea 'ikai toe veiveiua 'a e kehekehe pe 'a e Palotisani ia 'iate ia pe he ngaahi 'aho ni. EX. ko e Metotisi kuo fele mo va'ava'a pea kuo 'ikai ke kei fa'a lau ia 'i mamani he 'aho ni. Fakatokanga'i e Metotisi 'i Tonga, ko e Uesiliana, Maama Fo'ou, Tonga Hou'eiki, Tonga Tau'ataina, Tonga Konisitutone, etc. Kapau 'e 'oatu e fehu'i ko eni kuo ke fai kiate kinautolu fakatatau kiate au mo 'eku fakakaukau 'e lelei ke tomu'a fai e fehu'i ko eni:

 

"'Oku fa'ahinga 'e fiha e TUI FAKA-KALISITIANE 'i mamani he 'aho ni"?

 

Kapau 'oku taha pe, pea 'e 'ikai leva taau ke fotunga tatau e fehu'i 'e 'eke mo ho'o fehu'i kuo fokotu'u. 'ikai ia ko ia pe foki sfaupula, ka 'oku taau ke manatu'i ma'u pe ko e primary source (TOHITAPU) 'a e Kalisitiane 'oku ala'aki ki ai 'e he kakai kehekehe 'i mamani 'a e ngaahi FOUNGA kehekehe ki hano 'omai mei hono 'aneafi (2000 yrs) ki he lolotonga ni ke lava ke mahino ki he kakai. EX, 'oku hanga 'e he ngaahi lotu fakaakekake ia 'o LAU i he TOHITAPU tatau pe 'a e potufolofola 'o e Papitaiso pea nau PAPITAISO VAILAHI kinautolu, ka ko e ngaahi denomination 'e ni'ihi 'o e Palotisani kau ai e ngaahi Metotisi 'i Tonga, 'oku nau ngaue'aki 'e kinautolu ia e "TULU'I HE FOFONGA 'O E TAMASI'I PE TA'AHINE" etc.

 

Ko ia ai sfaupula ko e FOUNGA ngaue mo e OUAU, 'e dependent ia he OLA kuo fanau'i mai 'e he FOUNGA 'oku ngaue'aki pe ALA'AKI 'e ha KAKAI pe DENOMINATION ki he TOHITAPU. Fakatokanga'i ange ko e TOHITAPU tatau pe 'oku lau, mo ngaue'aki 'e he kakai 'oku nau kehekehe ai he ngaahi TO'ANGA 'o 'enau FAKAMAMAFA. Koe ngaahi kehekehe ko eni 'oku langa 'aavahevahe ai pe e kau Kalisitiane ia he 'AHO NI.

 

TOKANGA atu ange ki he Denomination 'e taha 'oku nau tui kinautolu 'oku MA'OLUNGA ANGE E MAFAI 'O E SIASI (not the denomination but the CHURCH) ia he WRITTEN DOCUMENT (tohitapu). 'Oku te'eki toe liua ia 'o a'u mai ki he 'AHO NI. Ka 'oku nau inescapable mei he TOHITAPU koe'uhi ko e kau Kalisitiane kinautolu, ka 'oku fika 2 hake pe fika kimui e TOHITAPU ia ki he sino hamai 'o Kalaisi ko e SIASI. Ko e talanoa ko eni 'oku ta fai, ko e tafa'aki kauvai pe ia 'o kitautolu pea 'oku toki fai ai pe e kehekehe ia he KAUVAI PE 'E TAHA. Kapau 'e 'unu mai ha TAHA ia mei he KAUVAI KO EE, 'e malieange mo mahino ange ai e me'a 'oku ou feinga atu ke tomu'a 'eke'i.

 

afe hee, he 'oku 'uha...,

 

'ofa atu mo e lotu,

lotopoha. 

----------------------

 

from Seni:

 

> "*'Oku fa'ahinga 'e fiha e TUI
> FAKA-KALISITIANE 'i mamani he 'aho ni"?*
> **
==========================================
Lolotonga e kehekehe ko 'eni 'a e ngaahi siasi faka-Kalisitiane pea mo kitautolu he paenga ni, ko e ha leva e me'a 'oku ne ha'i pe ke fakataha'i e kehekehe ko 'eni--a point of unity in the midst of diversity?

Mahalo 'e mahu'inga leva ke tau fakamahino pe 'oku tau hoko feefee koe fanau 'a e 'Otua?

 

----------------------

 

from Lotopoha:

 

malie ia seni pea ko e taha ia he fehu'i? ka 'i he taimi tatau pe 'e kei mo'ua ai pe he me'a ne u lave ki ai pea ko e MO'ONI'I ME'A foki ia. Ko e UNITY IN DIVERSITY ko hono aka tefito ko e TRIUNE GOD. Ka 'oku sai pe e triune God ia he 'oku 'ikai hoko 'enau Unity in Diversity ko ha'anau TONOUNOU ka 'oku kei MA'U pe AI honau HAOHAOA mo HONAU 'OTUA TAKITAHA neong ko e TAHA pe. Ko e me'a 'oku fakalanga talanoa mai ai 'a sfaupula ko e ffifili'i e relationship 'o e Tangata pe Fefine mo e 'Otua, pe 'e FOU 'i he HAA E ME'A. EX. TOHITAPU (fakamatala), pe ko e IMAGINATION with some expectation to receive God's Will in a term of REVELATION apart from the TOHITAPU.

 

Ko ia ko e langa ia 'a sfaupula ke lead e talanoa ki he AUTHORITY 'o e TOHITAPU in relation with God and all of the creatures.

 

'oku kei momoko pe, ki'i afe hee 'o fakauu...,

 

'ofa atu mo e lotu

lotopoha

[sfaupula]

malo lotopoha pea kataki pe he fkloloa me'a ka 'oku ou tui ko e lau 'a thiselton 'oku mahu'inga:

 

"more conservative approaches to the nature of the authority of the bible have, since the era of warfield and orr,... simply fallen into over-worn groves from which it seems unable to escape." ('authority and hermeneutics')

 

ko ia, ko e taha e ngaahi founga mahu'inga 'oku ou tui 'e tokoni ki hono tofa ha hala ki tu'a mei he faingata'a 'oku tau fetoumoliu ai 'i hono talanoa'i e natula 'o e mafai 'o e tohitapu ko hono toe vakai'i e founga ne makatu'unga ai 'a hono accomplish 'e he kau fa'u tohi, sisu moe kau 'apositolo 'enau relationship mo e 'otua.

 

ko e ki'i afe mai pe, kae fai ha okooko ki he ki'i ngaue 'oku fai. ka 'osi ia, ko 'etau papaaka pe he tslsl moe inu kava lahi he po pe ko ee 'o e fktu'amelie.

 

skf

 

---------

 

----- Original Message -----

[hamilto...@paradise.net.nz]

Saipe he ko e Chapel pe 'o e kau Neesi 'oku nau fakamokomoko ki ia.

Ko e fifili pe ko e ha kuo tatapuni pehe'i ai 'a e ngaahi fehu'i? Matamata 'e
tokoni ange ki he kau memipa Tasilisili kapau 'e 'oange ha faingamalie 'o e
tefito'i fakakaukau 'oku fehu'i 'ia ke manava pea mo 'ataa ki he faka'uhinga.

Mo e ofa meihe Nursing Chapel
Hausia

Quoting Lotopoha Jeruel <seluel...@gmail.com>:

chapel malo e tau mo e ngaue kae'uma'aa e malanga mei hena. 'oku
fakafiefia ko ho'omou fie kau mai. tukumu'a ke u lave atu...,

Kimu'a peau fakalavelave atu ki ho'o fakalanga talanoa, 'oku fie
fokotu'u atu kia Sfaupula e fehu'i ko eni: "*'OKU FA'AHINGA 'E FIHA E
KALISITIANE HE 'AHO NI? 'OKU TAHA PE, PE 'OKU LAHI HAKE? KAPAU 'OKU LAHI HAKE
HE TAHA, KO E TUPU MEI HE HAA? KO E HAA E FELAVE'I 'A E LAHI MO E KEHEKEHE 'O
FA'AHINGA 'O E KALISITIANE, MO E TU'UNGA 'O E TOHITAPU?*

[tv]

Katski he afenoa, ka ko e 'atunga ai pee 'a e malie'ia. Kamata muimui
mai he tepile ni he 'oku mohu fau pea ko e ngaahi polave ke fakamo'ui
he 'oku 'aonga.

Ka ko e 'oho pee na'a fai ha muimui pea te melemo. Hangehangee kiate
au nai ko e fo'i lea "authority" 'oku fakatu'utamaki kapau 'e 'ikai
'uluaki hili hono fakakaukau ki he context totonu 'oku fakatoka.
Tautefito ki he'etau ki'i motu'i lotu. Kaikehe ....

Koe fokotu'u pe: (a complex claim) fefe kapau ko e taimi 'oku tau
ngaue'aki ai e pupunga lea "authority of scripture", ko e fakanounou
pee 'etau pehee - neongo koe "authority" 'oku 'a e 'Otua pee, God has
somehow invested this authority in scripture.

Ko e taimi lahi, 'oku tau hanga 'o fokotu'u e "authority" ke
ta'emauea, (as we have come to understand in our own human experience)
- pea tau toki fakatonutonu ki ai e scripture. 'Oku ne tala 'e ia e
palopalema 'o 'etau mahino'i e fakakaukau 'o e "authority". Kapau 'e
fulihi pea 'e pehe ni nai;

tau pehee kuo tau mahino'i e scripture (souke, ko hai ha to'a!), pea
tau hanga leva 'o 'oange ha faingamalie 'o 'etau mahino mo e maheni
moe "authority" ke fakafotunga 'e he Tohitapu.

Teu ngata na'a te melemo. Ka koe feinga pee na'a lava e ongo tafa'aki
'o e tepile ni 'o mali nai?

[Sione Mauifanga]

tv> quote:

 

Teu ngata na'a te melemo. Ka koe feinga pee na'a lava e ongo tafa'aki
'o e tepile ni 'o mali nai?

Kataki pe tv 'o toe foki ki he kamata'anga e fai kaume'a e ongo tafa'aki 'o siofi he teke 'ilo ai kuo loa 'ena 'osi mali. 'Oku ou tali atu au ia mo e veifua ki ha taimi te na fa'ele ai. 'Oku 'uhinga ho'o ilifia he melemo ko ho'o to e 'alu 'au ki he feitu'u fai'anga melemo 'o ta'alo mei ai, ko mautolu 'eni kuo loa 'emau 'i he lolo touhuni fai 'emau ako hiva. Vave mai ki 'uta ke ma'u ha'o va'a papa kae foki e faifekau ia ki he Chapel ke hoko atu e fakalelu ki he kau mahaki.

 

toki sio he ako hiva hoko

 

mauifanga

[Saikolone Taufa]

Mauifanga

Ka faingamalie pea ako'i atu moe ki'i fo'i hiva ko'ena ki he Sapate.

 

If I were an elephant, I'd thank you Lord by raising my trunk

If I were and elephant, I'd thank you Lord by raising my trunk

If I were an octopus, I'd thank you Lord for my fine looks

But I just thank you Father for making me, me

 

Te tau ako hiva ki fe? 'Oku ngali sai pe e lalo touhuni ia, ka 'oku ngali  fakamafana ange e Chapel 'oe kau neesi. Fakamolemole atu he'ene ngali le'oua, ka koe fakapuna pe 'ehe mafana he sio hivaa. Moe 'ofa moe lotu. Lone

[iki]

Fefee Lone kapau 'e 'ai he laine fakamuimui instead of saying father we can sing " thank you mother for making me ,me. koma pe pope

[tv]

'Oku sai e feitu'u melemo ke 'ai mo te ki'i get off the comfort zone.
Ne 'ikai pe fu'u tonu e fakalea. 'Asinga ai he koe mali ni ko e mali
muli - after the honeymoon pea hoko atu e mo'oni ia ... ko e 'ai pee
mo ki'i tau kaikaila. Mali tonga pee 'oku fai ai e lolomi e me'a koee
ke longosi ... 'o feihaka pee mo pelupelu foo.

Ko e lea "authority" 'oku matalahi 'i he ngaue'aki pe ia 'e he kau
muli, pea fefee ai 'etau lea (tonga) 'oku fa'a faingata'a hano falute
'e ha fo'i lea ha fakaukau muli. Mei he malava'e va'inga 'oku fa'a
takua - 'that player stamped his authority in the game'. mei he kau
tama fa'a sio koniseti - 'that musician gave an authoritative
performance'. Kau tama fa'a taataa ha'anu puha beer, ka huu mai ha
taha o pehee mai - 'who is in charge?', pea 'oku fa'a fai e fesiofaki
he 'oku 'ikai fa'a define clearly 'a e structure 'o e ki'i feohi'anga
ko ia. mei ha pisinisi - who is in charge? 'oku 'i ai hono tali
mahino .... mo e haafua e ngaahi mohenga kehekehe 'o e lea kuo fai ai
e taalanga.

koe lea tu'u pee he 'oku fai e palau atu e ngaahi felingiaki. mo hono
fakana'una'u ki he taimi 'e folahi mai ai e authority within the
church - what are we looking for when we are looking for authority in
church; where would we find it; how would we know when we had found
it; what do we do with authoritative documents, or people .... etc, mo
e ngaahi fehu'i kehe pee 'oku fakakoloa 'e he felingiaki.

'Oua leva te mou fakatonga'i e mali ni he 'oku malie ange hono
fakasivilaise'i fkpapalangi, pea 'oku lave ai kimautolu ni inu tii inu
kofi.

[sfaupula]

malo sione, lone mo iki. fkfiefia ho'o mou afe mai pea hiva 'aki e kotoa hotau loto.

 

skf

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Sione Mauifanga

To: tasil...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 11:36 AM

Subject: [tasilisili] Re: FOLOFOLA 'A E 'OTUA -Lotopoha

[Sione Mauifanga]

Malo Saikolone,

 

Ko 'eku faka'amu foki ia ke mou ngaue 'aonga 'aki e faingamalie 'oku ou 'i he paenga ai, laku mai homou ngaahi hiva ke faka-fasi atu. Ka ke ki'i ngunguu'i atu 'aki e fasi 'o e "feke na koe fe ho kave valu" he kou lolotonga fa'u e fo'i hiva fo'ou ke tau hoko atu ki ai. Teu kole atu aipe ke ke hu mai mo Ti Vaikona he laulalo, he 'oku kei fie nofo pe 'a lotopoha ia mo sfaupula he ongo fa'ahi 'i 'olunga. Mahino pe au ia ko au 'oku ou ta 'etau hiva pea ko e faifekau Chapel 'oku ne ta 'etau me'alea. Tau ki'i lalolalo touhuni pe ka tau toki vakai ki he Chapel kae 'oleva ke manifinifi atu e kau neesi, tukukehe ka loto a 'Iki pope ke mu'a ia ki ai 'o tali mei ai. Ko 'etau hiva fo'ou ki he uike ni ko hono veesi 1 ena.

 

Lotu fehu'i tapu ala mai,

Lotu fehu'i tapu ala mai,

Malanga hoko pe ngofua ke ala mai,

Sila lahi,  
 

Tau toki sio ki he lolo touhuni, pea to'oto'o ange hamou ki'i kali ke mou me'a ai he 'oku 'one'onea e lolo 'akau.

 

'I he 'ofa mo e lotu mo e fa'u hiva.

 

mauifanga
 

[vilimo fakalolo]

Koe fakaa'u atu pe kole meia Sailosi 'Alofi (oku ne faifatongia i he fo'i 'one'one) ke mou ki'i lukuluku mai ki he ene toe malanga efiafi ihe Sapate kaha'u (8/6). Kataki tv 'o tokanga mai kiai he koe teu ke fakakoloa 'ae kainga 'i motu. Tene toki oatu ha 'ota he hili 'a e malanga.

 

malo

 

Vilimo

[hamilto...@paradise.net.nz]

Lotopoha, 'oku ou 'ikai ke toe fu'u 'uhinga ia kiate au ia 'a e lea hala mo e
tonu he ngaahi 'aho ni. 'oku ou lau pe 'a ho'o veimau mo Veni pea he'ikai teu
lava 'o pehee 'oku tonu e kae hala e tama ko ee. 'oku mo takitaha pe 'a e
tafa'aki pea 'e kei ua ai pe.

Ko e fakahua na'aku fokotu'u atu kapau 'oku fiema'u kemau kau fakatautehina
atu he felingiaki 'o hange koena kuo kamata lave mai ki ai 'a Iki, Lone mo
Sione pea 'e tokoni kapau 'e fakangofua ae fehu'i ke 'ataa. Ko e taha a eni 'a
e fehu'i na'e 'omi ki he tasilisili, 'Oku fiha 'a e Kalsisitiane? etc 'E
tokoni ange kiate au kapau na'e pehee, Explore a e Chris...

ko e filifi atu pe tupunga meihe lahi 'eku tonounou.
Miehe Nursing Chapel
Hausia I Moana

Quoting Lotopoha Jeruel <seluel...@gmail.com>:

> malo hausia e fifili. 'oku mo'oni mahalo e anga ho'o vakai, ka 'oku
> 'ikai te
> u vakai au ki he fehu'i kuo tatapuni. ko e fehu'i, kuo hangee pe ia ha
> TAUAKI NGATU he loto'ata'ataa ki he La'aa. kataki pe kapau 'oku hala
> ha'amautolu ia ma'u pea ke tokoni mai he me'a 'oku e 'uhinga ki ai.

>
> 'ofa atu mo e lotu,
> lotopoha
>
>

> On 5/27/08, hamilto...@paradise.net.nz
> <hamilto...@paradise.net.nz>

[hamilto...@paradise.net.nz]

Hoko atu pe 'a e vahevahe Lotopoha he 'oku malie. Pea 'e tokoni kiate
kimautolu kau lekileki ke fakafelavei ma'u maipe ki he 'aho ni. Ko e fa'ahinga
sio na'aku fai ko e vakai atu meihe tapa'i laine. Ko e fa'ahinga sio na'e
ngaue 'aki 'i he taimi 'o e Po'opo'oi he 1875 ko e sio 'a "sikota"

uoting Lotopoha Jeruel <seluel...@gmail.com>:

> malo hausia, kapau 'oku 'uhinga pehe ho'o faka'amu pea 'oku ou poupou
> atu au
> ki he kau fakataha he fe'inasi'aki. ko ia 'oku ou kole atu ke ke kataki
> aa
> 'o faka-kakato hifo ho'o fehu'i (explore 'a e Christians) ke tau paki aa
> ai
> fakataha mo e ngaahi lesoni fakauike.
>
> 'oku ou tui pe 'e tali lelei eni 'e sfaupula.

>
> 'ofa atu mo e lotu,
> lotopoha
>
>

> On 5/29/08, hamilto...@paradise.net.nz
> <hamilto...@paradise.net.nz>