Ngaahi 'Aho 'o e Uike Tapu - ko e fifili fo'ou?
tv
fokotu'u atu ha fanga ki'i fakakaukau ke fai hano fifili'i.
Sapate Paame ko e laka-fakahaahaa 'a Sisu!
'I he 'aho 'oku tau ui ko e Sapate Paame 'oku 'i ai e ongo laka lalahi
'e 2 'oku huu mai ki Selusalema. 'Uluaki ko e Kovana Loma mo hono
ngaahi langilangi - ngaahi saliote, kau ka'ate, ngaahi konga-kau mo
fakatee ai 'a e ngaahi naunau-tau koe fakamahino 'a e fu'u ivi
fakakautau 'o Loma. Pea ko e 'uhinga lahi 'e taha 'o e fakatee 'a e
Pule'anga he 'aho ko eni ko e fakamahino ai pee 'oku nau teu pee na'a
'i ai ha moveuveu he taimi tokolahimo longolongo katoanga ko eni 'o
Selusalema.
Ko e laka fakatee 'e taha ee ne taki mai 'e Sisu mei he mui'i kolo
Selusalema 'e taha. 'Oku mahino ko 'ene fo'i huu mai ko eni na'e pue
hake ki ai e 'me'avale' mo e kakai 'o nau hifo mai mo e kaikaila mo
hiva. Haa e 'uhinga nai e huu mai ko eni 'a Sisu he 'aho longolongo
katoanga. Pea 'ikai ngata ai ka ko e anga 'ene huu mai! Ko e
fakafepaki eni 'a Sisu ki he fu'u ivi fakapolitikale 'o Loma 'oku
fakatee mo fakahaahaa mai 'e he Kovana. Pea 'ikai heka mai ha saliote
fakafe'ao mai 'aki ha mafi faka-kautau, ka na'e heka mai he ki'i 'asi
'o muimuia 'e he kainanga e fonua. Hangee nai ha'ane faka'aluma?
Ko e fakakaukau leva 'oku fekau'aki mo e "misaia", ko e tokotaha ne
nofo e kau Siu 'o tali ke fakahaofi kinautolu mei he pule mo taki
fakaehaua kinautolu mei he mafai 'o Loma. Ne 'i ai pee ki'i ni'ihi ne
nau feinga fakafepaki ki he mafai 'o Loma (ko hai koaa e tama ne kaila
e kakai ke hao ia ka e kalusefai 'a Sisu?), ko e feinga 'a e fa'ahinga
ne nau angatu'u pehe ni ke nau tau'ataina. Ka ne ako'i foki 'e Sisu 'a
e fakafepaki 'i he founga melino (non-violent protest - ko e fekau ia
'o e "fekau mai ke lue maile 1, pea 'ai ha maile 'e 2"). 'A ia ko e
feinga eni 'a Sisu ke fakafepaki ki he 'empaea mo hono mafai 'oku ne
fakaehaua'i e kakai (a protest to bring down a corrupt empire).
'I he maama ko ia, 'oku hangee 'oku malie ange kiate au 'a e Sisu ko
eni. 'A e Sisu na'e laka fakahaahaa ko 'ene fakafepaki mo 'ene feinga
ke liliu fakapolitikale mo faka-laumalie 'a e anga e sio mo e tukunga
'etau fakakaukau ki he masiva, tukuhausia, fakaehaua, mo e
koloa ...etc. He ko e palomesi ia 'o e 'emipaea Loma ko kinautolu 'oku
nau 'ilo mo 'omai e fakamaau-totonu, 'a e tu'umalie mo e hafua e lelei
fakalukufua ki mamani. Ka ko e me'a na'e hoko ko e toe popula ange 'a
e kakai mo 'enau mo'ui. (Jesus lead a political and spiritual
revolution to change how we view wealth, poverty, and violence in the
world and the people in power had him killed to try and stop the
revolution before it got out of hand).
'Oku 'i ai leva e fakamahalo 'oku hanga 'e he ngaahi teolosia lahi 'o
kofukofu e "Sisu laka fakahaahaa" 'aki 'a e ngaahi tala-'otua 'oku nau
vaka mai he 'talangofua' ki he mafai ma'olunga pea mo e ngaahi fa'unga
pule'anga hangee pe ko ia ne feinga 'a Sisu ke holoki. 'Oku ou
fakakaukau atu ki he mahu'inga 'oe politiki 'i he 'etau fetaangutu'i
ni, tatau ai pee pe ko e kalisitiane koe pe 'ikai. Ko e politiki 'oku
mahu'inga ki he'etau misi (our dreams). Ko e politiki ko hono feinga'i
ia 'o e me'a 'oku te tui ki ai ke haa sino mai 'i he ngaahi material
social policies. Koe fa'ahiga mafai 'oku taupe ki ai 'a e me'a lahi.
Ko e haa leva hoku ui ko e kalisitiane 'i he ki'i maama o'ku ou
fakasiosio ki ai ngali 'oku tapa mai mei he me'a 'a Sisu na'e fai 'i
he Sapate Paame?
'Oku fai e malie'ia he lele atu ko eni 'a e ngaahi 'aho 'o e uike tapu
pea mo e hoko atu e fakamoveuveu 'a 'Sisu lakafakahaahaa'. Ka e tuku
atu eni ke fai ai ha kamata e talanga.
ikilifi pope
> tv:
> Ko e femou'ekina pee he faka'amu ke 'unuaki e teolosia, pea kole ke
> fokotu'u atu ha fanga ki'i fakakaukau ke fai hano fifili'i.
>
> Sapate Paame ko e laka-fakahaahaa 'a Sisu!
> -------------------------
'oku 'iai e malie makehe ho'o fifili masi'i anga kehe...pea ko e me'a mo'oni
ena 'oku lave ki ai...na'e 'iai ho'o lave atu ki mu'a ki he fklakalaka 'o
'etau teolosiaa...ko e taha e fktaataa 'oku ou mahu'inga'ia ai ho'o lave ki
he 'etau teolosiaa...he 'oku hangee nai ia ha polisii 'a e pule'angaa...ka
ai ha ngaue heni 'oku mau feinga ke lava ki he to'utpu..'e feinga leva e
ngaahi fktaha'angaa ke 'ave homau leo'oo ki he pule'angaa ke tali ko e konga
ia 'o enau polisii kae lava ke tafe mai ha pa'anga ke fai 'aki e ngauee pea
'e toki hifo leva mai ai 'o a'u hifo kia mautolu ki laloo pea mei ai ke
fkhoko 'a e ngaue ki he kakai...
hangee kiate au 'oku pehee 'a e teolosiaa kapau 'oku tau loto ke
fakalakalaka 'e tau lotu...pe tui fklotuu...ke fe'unga mo e 'atakai ko 'enii
'oku tau tui 'oku totonu ke faofao 'etau teolosiaa ke ne lava 'o a'u hifo ki
he 'elia kuo 'ikai ke tau lava ke a'u ki ai koe'uhii pe ko e 'ikai ha mafai
a'u kiai....kuo fk'ataa 'e he 'etau teolosia lolotonga.. koe faofao pe
pope..
Samiuela Taungakava
..............................
TV mo pope 'aia 'e ui leva ia pe fakahingoa ko e teolosia 'oe laka fakahaahaa pe theology of rebellion? pe 'oku toe 'iai hano fakalea 'e taha?
Samiu
Win tickets to see Muse at London’s Wembley Stadium. Go now!
tv
'uhinga mai ki ai 'a Sisu. Ka 'oku hangee kiate au 'oku tafe hifo e
ngaahi mo'oni 'okutau pipiki ki ai mei he fakakaukau 'o e "Pule'anga
'o e 'Otua" - (the way we look at the Kingdom of God). 'Oku ou siosio
'oku hangee ko e tu'unga faka'ekonomika 'o tonga mo 'ene falala kih e
pa'anga lii mai mei he kau Tonga mei muli (remittances). 'Oku ne hanga
'o faka'ai'ai e fakafalala, fakapikopiko, mo e ta'e feifeinga mo e
haafua. 'Oku hangee 'etau fai e lotu ko e tali pee mo fakafonufonu
taimi mo tali ai na'a toki 'i ai ha mana mei langi nai, pe ko ha
supernatural power ke ne fai e me'a 'oku tau faka'amu ki ai. He ko e
me'a ia 'oku faka'imisi 'i hono teke'i e kau lotu ke nau lotu lotu pee
mo popohiva pea 'oau te nau kau kihe me'a 'a e kau politiki, me'a
fakapisinisi, me'a haa mo e haa .... Pea hangee kiate au 'oku ngali
kuo ngaue'aki ai pee 'e he kau lotu ia e fo'i mahino mo e fa'ahinga
teolosia ko ia ke nau palupalu ai pee kinautolu 'i 'api siasi mo
pakipaki.
'Oku hangee kiate au ko e me'a eni 'oku tatale hake 'i he kau
"Calvin", he 'oku nau tui foki 'oku 'osi 'i ai pee palani ia ki he
taha kotoa. Ka ko e feinga eni ke faka-kainga 'a e ngaue 'a e "Foha e
Tangata" - the Son of Man, pea mo e fa'ahinga mafai 'o e 'Otua 'oku ne
falute 'etau tui faka-kalisitiane. 'A ia ko 'ene ngaue 'i he me'a 'oku
hoko 'i he anga e fa'unga hono taimi - 'a e pule fakaehaua 'a e
'emipaea Loma mo e kaikoa ki ai 'a e kau Paipa Siu he lotu/lao, pea mo
e fekau faka-messianic ne tala 'e he kau palofita.
Kaikehe, ko e "pule'anga 'o e 'otua" koe fa'ahinga fakakaukau ne
fuoloa pee nofo mai 'a e kau Siu ia mo ia mei mu'a. tau lau he Fuakava
Motu'a pea hangee ko e taimi 'o 'Isileli mo Felo 'i 'Isipite, ne nau
nofo 'o na'una'u ki honau "misaia" ke ne fakatau'ataina'i kinautolu
mei he ngaahi piliki 'a Felo. A'u mai eni ki he Fuakava Fo'ou (hangee
ko e lesoni 'o e lele atu ko eni 'o e Paame), 'oku nau 'ia Sisa mo e
totongi tukuhau. 'oku nau tangi ai pee, 'afee nai 'e fakatau'ataina'i
ai kinautolu. Ka e fefee 'a e kau Taki/Taula'eki he lotu mo hono fusi
fakafefeka e tauhi lao, ko e fakapopula atu fau. 'Oku tuhu tonu e
ngaahi ha'i ko eni ki he politiki 'oku fekuki mo e kau 'Isileli. Ko e
fifili 'oku makatu'unga leva he 'eku pehee ko e fo'i huu mai 'a Sisu
ki Selusalema 'oku fakapolitikale. Ko 'ene fakapolitikale he 'oku
hangee kaite au ha'ane uki laka fakahaahaa fekau'aki mo e founga taki
ne ha'isia ai si'i mo'ulaloa ('a Loma mo hono ngaahi mafai fakakau-
tau), pea a'u mai ki he Monite 'ene huu ki he Temipale 'o fakamoveuveu
ko 'ene protest kihe kau Paipa Lotu. ka e toki fai ha hoko ki ai ha
faingamalie!
tv
'oku hangee 'oku nenefu. Ko e ma'u pe ia 'a'aku he me'a 'oku ou maheni
mo ia he tupu hake 'i he lotu Tonga. Hangee nai 'oku fai pee ha male
ki he'ene hifo mai ki Selusalema 'o ui ko e "ha'ele faka-tu'i". Te'eki
ke fai hano tukutuku lelei ki he anga 'o e taimi ko ia, pea mo hono
'etimosifia. 'Ikai ke u 'ilo 'e au pe ko e ma'u 'o 'etau fakamanatu
"ha'ele fakatu'i" mei fe? Pea koe haa ko aa hono fu'u mahu'inga ki he
kalisitiane he ngaahi 'aho ni.
Ka 'oku ou ngali mafana ange ki he fakakaukau 'o e hanga 'e Sisu 'o
taimi'i 'ene huu mai ki Selusalema ke ne taki ai e tokanga ki he me'a
'oku ha'isia ai e mo'ui 'a e kakai. Pea taane'ine'i ke pue hake 'a e
kainanga e fonua 'o muimui mo fakafe'ao ki ai. Ko e mafai tatau pee ne
nau tutuki ia he kolosi (fakataha mo e tokoni 'a e kau taki lotu Siu),
ko kinautolu pee ne nau tali e tokateline mo e ngaahi akonaki 'a Sisu,
ka ne nau hanga 'o miomioi'i mo toe tufunga'i e ngaahi mo'oni 'a Sisu
ke ne faka'ai'ai ai pee talangofua ki he mafai faka-politikale 'a ee
na'e feinga 'a Sisu ke veteki mo fakatau'ataina'i mei ai si'i kakai.
Ko e me'a 'oku ou tumu ai ko e haa kuo kamata felaauaki ai e ngaahi
mafai fakapolitikale, pea ta kalo hake kalisitiane 'o tu'u he kauhala
'oku faka'ai'ai 'e he fa'ahinga mahino ko ee 'o e "mavahe pee 'a e
lotu" ia mei he politiki mo e haa mo e haa. Ngali 'oku fai e kalo ki
hee ko 'ene faingofua nai? Ko 'ete laulau tohitapu pee mo lotu lotu?
Ka e haa e kolosi ia 'oku tala mai ke fua?
Kiate au leva, ko e Sapate Paame ia 'oku kamata ke mahu'inga malie
ange 'i he sio ko e feinga 'a Sisu ke fakafepaki mo protest ki he ha'i
'oku ne fakamafasia'i si'i mo'ulaloa. Ko e kei fakamanatu ai pee mo
malanga'i e "ha'ele fakatu'i" 'oku 'ikai holo ai e palopalema 'o e
ta'ema'u ngaue 'i Tonga, 'oku 'ikai holo ai e palopalema 'o e kee &
fuhu 'a e ngaahi kolisi, 'oku 'ikai holo ai e kaiha'a ia mo e feinga
mo'ui 'a e kakai ... etc. 'Oku fa'o heni 'a e prophetic fulfillment
mei he Fuakava Motu'a moe kau palofita, pea mo e tali ki he Misaia
(but the concept of messiah was based on the overthrow of a corrupt
empire). Ka ko e fee Sisu 'e 'ofa ai e masiva, mo'ulaloa, fakaehaua,
mo kinautolu 'oku fakapopula'i 'e he ngaahi ha'i 'oku tau
faingata'a'ia hono tukuange?
spiu...@bigpond.net.au
---- tv <mani...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Ko e
> fifili 'oku makatu'unga leva he 'eku pehee ko e fo'i huu mai 'a Sisu
> ki Selusalema 'oku fakapolitikale. Ko 'ene fakapolitikale he 'oku
> hangee kaite au ha'ane uki laka fakahaahaa fekau'aki mo e founga taki
> ne ha'isia ai si'i mo'ulaloa ('a Loma mo hono ngaahi mafai fakakau-
> tau), pea a'u mai ki he Monite 'ene huu ki he Temipale 'o fakamoveuveu
> ko 'ene protest kihe kau Paipa Lotu. ka e toki fai ha hoko ki ai ha
> faingamalie!
Malo e fakatalanoa, pea 'oku totonu ke a'u 'a e teolosia ki ha fa'ahinga 'e ui ko e "Teolosia tu'utu'ukina", he 'oku mahino pea e'a 'a 'ene 'i he feitu'u na ko e ngaahi 'aho Katoanga, pea ko e founga 'o 'ene hu 'a ia 'oku fifili'i, ko e kakai na'anau 'unu mai 'i he falala ko e Tu'i Siu eni. Ne te'eki ke uki 'e Sisu e fu'u kakai ni ki he 'uhinga 'oku fifili'i, kaekehe 'e kei fa'iteliha pe 'a e kau sio ki he laka mo 'ene faka'uhinga.
mei he teolosia tu'utu'ukina.
sepesi.
tv
Katoanga, pea ko e founga 'o 'ene hu 'a ia 'oku fifili'i, ko e kakai
na'anau 'unu mai 'i he falala ko e Tu'i Siu eni. Ne te'eki ke uki 'e
Sisu e fu'u kakai ni ki he 'uhinga 'oku fifili'i, kaekehe 'e kei
fa'iteliha pe 'a e kau sio ki he laka mo 'ene faka'uhinga.
mei he teolosia tu'utu'ukina.
sepesi.
'Oku hangee eni ha mo'unofoa he "modernity", 'a e 'ave 'Otua ke mavahe
ki langi 'o mama'o ia mei mamani. Mahalo ko e me'a ia 'oku fai ai e
tu'utu'ukina ee. Ko e tui 'a e kakai ko e tu'i Siu eni he na'a nau sio
ki he ngaahi "ngaue fakaofo". Ka ko e tafa'aki ia 'e taha 'o Sisu 'oku
ta kei mo'unofoa ai. Ko e vakavakai ki he toenga 'o hono taimi mo 'ene
ngaue na'e fai, pea tautefito ki he'ene ngaahi akonaki 'oku fai ai e
fifili. Ka e pango he 'oku lii mai 'a e ngaahi fo'i tasilisili hangee
ko eni mei a Sepesi, 'oku mo'oni e lau - ko e naa tatau ai pee (and it
is a boring, pea mo kamata ke mole hono kona) pea koe me'a ia mahalo
'oku 'eke mai ai kiate kitaua (siasi) pe ko e haa ko aa 'eta lau ki
hee mo ee, pea ta hanga hake pee 'o pehee atu - 'ikai, kataki 'oku
'ikai ke u kau au he me'a ko ena 'oku ou femou'ekina pe au he lotu ki
hoku tu'i.
Ko e "tu'i" 'i he nofo 'a e kau Siu na'e taaupe 'a e faka'amu mo e
'unaloto ko ia ki ha Felo, ki ha Sisa, ki ha tu'i ke tataki kinautolu
he'enau kei 'i he mamani 'i he founga 'oku 'ikai fakapopula, 'ikai ke
toe fekau ke nau ngaahi piliki (ie, 'isipite), 'ikai ke nau toe
totongi tukuhau (ie, Roman rules), pea 'ikai ke fakapopula hono ngaahi
lao (hangee ko e ia ne fai 'e he kau Falesi, taula'eiki .. kau taki
lotu). Ko e concept ia 'o e "misaia" ne nau nofo 'o 'unaloto mo tali
ki ai. ko e tu'i ia ne nau tali mo nofo 'o faka'amu ke hoko mai.
Ko 'ene toki a'u 'a Sisu 'o tu'u 'i mu'a 'ia Pailate 'o na potalanoa
ko ia, pea 'oku hua'i mai 'e he ki'i fepotalano'aki ko ia 'a e me'a ko
eni 'oku ou 'uhinga ki ai. Manatu ne feinga 'a Sisu ke fakamatala kia
Sione & Semisi he taimi na'a kole ai ke na takitaha hono ongo tafa'aki
ha'ane hoko ki hono taloni. Ne hoko eni he naanaafaki 'ene huu mai ko
eni ki Selusalema. Pea kapau 'e lau fakalelei 'a e konga ko ia (Ma'ake
10), 'oku mahino ai 'a e fa'ahinga "tu'i" faka-siu 'oku nau nofo 'o
tali ki ai ('a ena 'oku ke 'uhinga ki ai Sepesi). Pea mei he polave ko
eni 'a Sisu 'i a Ma'ake 10, 'oku ne fakamahino ai 'a e fa'ahinga
fa'unga fakapolitikale 'oku 'uhinga ki ai 'a Sisu pea mo e me'a 'oku
ui kitautolu ki ai.
tv
'Oku tau anga maheni koe huu eni 'a Sisu ki he Temipale 'o kapusi e
kau fefakatau'aki mo ne veuki e kau faka-pisinisi he Temipale. Pea neu
tupu mo nofo mai mo e pehee ko 'ene 'uhinga he 'oku 'ikai fai ha
pisinisi mo ha ngaahi ngaue pehe ni he Temipale - 'oku tapu ('a e
ngaahi me'a 'oku tau anga ai 'i Tonga mo hono tauhi molumalu 'o
loto'aa).
Ka e hangee ko 'ene hoko atu eni 'a Sisu ia 'ene fakahaahaa mo 'ene
protest ki he me'a kuo hoko ki he fa'unga ko eni (this institution).
Ko e 'omai kotoa eni 'e Sisu mei he'ene 'ilo ki he Fuakava Motu'a. Ne
ne 'ilo kuo kaikoa e kau Taki lotu mo e kau Taki Siu ki he kau pule
Loma, pea hangee kuo hanga 'ehe mafai Loma 'o fakapulepule'i e anga
'enau tauhi ki he me'a mahu'inga ni, pea ko 'ene 'ita he kau taki lotu
he'enau malualoi, kakaa mo matamata-ua mo fakangalingali. Ko ia ai, ko
'ene veuki ko eni mo 'ene fakamoveuveu ko 'ene feinga ke ta'ofi e
ma'u'anga pa'anga 'oku ngaue'aki ki hono fakalele 'o e Temipale.
hangee eni hano feinga'i nai ke 'osi e me'a 'oku ma'u mo'ui ai e
Temipale.
Kuo hoko e mo'ui'anga (Temipale moe lotu), ko ha me'a ia ke hala mo
fou mai ai e ngaahi ngaue ta'etotonu mo fakaehaua 'one kei
fakapopula'i ai pee masiva mo e kainanga e fonua. Kuo fakalai e kau
Taki Lotu ki he mafai 'o e kau sotia Loma (mo Sisa), pea ko e me'a
'oku hoko ko 'enau fai e ngaue mo e tauhi e lotu moe temipale 'i he
ngaahi founga hala mo 'uli lahi. Pea ko 'ene ui eni e Temipale ko e
"'ana 'o e kau kaiha'a" ko 'ene fakamanatu 'a e Palofita ko Selemaia
(prophetic fulfillment). Ka 'i he Sapate na'a ne fakamo'oni ai ki he
lau 'a e palofita ko Sakalaia.
Kiate au, 'oku ou maafana ange ki he Sisu ko eni, he 'oku mahu'inga
malie ange ia he ngaahi me'a 'oku hoko 'i hoku mamani. Na'a ne tala 'e
ia 'a e founga fo'ou 'o e "lotu", 'a e "temipale" fo'ou, pea holoki ai
e ngaahi m'ounofoa ko e fale-lotu 'oku toputapu. Pea hangee 'oku aata
mai ha ki'i maama 'oku 'uhinga mo mahu'ingamalie he me'a ne ne fai he
Temipale he Monite.
Sisilia Thomas
> > tv:
> > Ko e femou'ekina pee he faka'amu ke 'unuaki e teolosia, pea kole ke
> > fokotu'u atu ha fanga ki'i fakakaukau ke fai hano fifili'i.
> >
> > Sapate Paame ko e laka-fakahaahaa 'a Sisu!
> > -------------------------
>'oku 'iai e malie makehe ho'o fifili masi'i anga kehe...pea ko e me'a mo'oni
>ena 'oku lave ki ai...na'e 'iai ho'o lave atu ki mu'a ki he fklakalaka 'o
>'etau teolosiaa...ko e taha e fktaataa 'oku ou mahu'inga'ia ai ho'o lave ki
>he 'etau teolosiaa...he 'oku hangee nai ia ha polisii 'a e pule'angaa...ka
>ai ha ngaue heni 'oku mau feinga ke lava ki he to'utpu..'e feinga leva e
>ngaahi fktaha'angaa ke 'ave homau leo'oo ki he pule'angaa ke tali ko e konga
>ia 'o enau polisii kae lava ke tafe mai ha pa'anga ke fai 'aki e ngauee pea
>'e toki hifo leva mai ai 'o a'u hifo kia mautolu ki laloo pea mei ai ke
>fkhoko 'a e ngaue ki he kakai...
>
>hangee kiate au 'oku pehee 'a e teolosiaa kapau 'oku tau loto ke
>fakalakalaka 'e tau lotu...pe tui fklotuu...ke fe'unga mo e 'atakai ko 'enii
>'oku tau tui 'oku totonu ke faofao 'etau teolosiaa ke ne lava 'o a'u hifo ki
>he 'elia kuo 'ikai ke tau lava ke a'u ki ai koe'uhii pe ko e 'ikai ha mafai
>a'u kiai....kuo fk'ataa 'e he 'etau teolosia lolotonga.. koe faofao pe
>pope..
..............................
Samiu wrote:TV mo pope 'aia 'e ui leva ia pe fakahingoa ko e teolosia 'oe laka fakahaahaa pe theology of rebellion? pe 'oku toe 'iai hano fakalea 'e taha?
============Vakai ki he fakafotunga 'o e 'ahoo, kau tama! Ke 'rebellion' fefe lolotonga na'e heka mai ki loto kolo 'a Sisu he ki'i 'uhiki'i 'asii? Kapau na'e heka ha 'stallion', mahalo 'e ngali vaofi ange ia mo ho'omou teolosia fakafepaki. Ko e anga pe 'o e fifili mei he lelue [Sisilia].
Win tickets to see Muse at London’s Wembley Stadium. Go now!
Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
loke
> Ka e fai ha hoko atu ki he Monite
---
d malo mu'a hono fakatafe mai 'a e 'ilo na.
__________________________________
"Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find
it."---
Andre Gide (1869 - 1951)
tv
lolotonga na'e heka mai ki loto kolo 'a Sisu he ki'i 'uhiki'i 'asii?
Kapau na'e heka ha 'stallion', mahalo 'e ngali vaofi ange ia mo
ho'omou teolosia fakafepaki. Ko e anga pe 'o e fifili mei he lelue
[Sisilia
jesus uses metaphor & sarcasm! historical meanings of his parables
would reveal this. tali mau he kuo kamata e valau ('ae fu'u kakai) pea
kamata leva (Tusite) 'ene ngaahi fakahinohino and most popular of them
is the "coin" - ne 'i ai ko aa ha me'a 'a Sisa? Ko e fehu'i 'o e
totongi tukuhau 'oku hanga ai 'e he tokolahi 'o fakamavahe'i e church
mei he state. but jesus put them on the spot to think - does Caesar
own anything? isn't God suppose to own everything? ka ko e 'uhinga ia
'o e ki'i fifili'i ko eni ki he anga 'etau ma'u kia Sisu.
I fully understand why we want him to come down in a 'stallion'.
Aahhhh ... that's exactly what the jews want their "messiah" to
arrive. Again, re-read 'a Ma'ake 10 pea mahino ai 'a e "pule'anga"
'oku ne 'omai. Ko e "not from this world, but it is for this world".
He has turned our way of thinking up-side-down - i came to serve not
to be served; kapau 'oku fie hoko ha taha 'ia kimoutolu koe lahi, kene
ngaue fk-sevaniti ... etc. This kind of kingdom isn't what we have
been thinking?
Ka 'oku fakamaafana 'a e tasilisili he 'oku ne teketeke atu e fifili
ni he'ilo na'a ofi kih a ki'i maama!
sami
Sisilia::
Vakai ki he fakafotunga 'o e 'ahoo, kau tama! Ke 'rebellion' fefe lolotonga na'e heka mai ki loto kolo 'a Sisu he ki'i 'uhiki'i 'asii? Kapau na'e heka ha 'stallion', mahalo 'e ngali vaofi ange ia mo ho'omou teolosia fakafepaki. Ko e anga pe 'o e fifili mei he lelue [Sisilia].
Malie ia Sisilia, pea ‘oku ‘ikai koha ‘ata ‘oku ke vakai kiai, ka koe “Fotunga mo’oni”” “
Heika’i malava ke ui ‘ae Heka mai ‘a Sisu ‘ihe ‘Asi koha “rebellion”..he ‘oku ‘ikai tatau “HONO ANGA” moe FOTUNGA ‘O’ENE “Ha’ele ki Selusalema”..na’e hanga ‘e Sisu heni ‘o Fakamanatu mai ki mamani “KOE TAMA ‘OTUA, na’e ‘ALO’I IA HE ‘AI’ANGAKAI ‘OE MANU,[ma’ulalo-taha ia ] pea ko’ene HA’ELE FAKATU’I ‘e kei fai pe ia he ‘Asi he koe ma’ulalo taha ia..Koe ‘ulungaanga KOEE KETAU MANATU’I, na’e ‘ikai toe liliu IAA meihe ‘AI’ANGAKAI kihe PALASI pea ‘oku pehee pe ‘ene Ha’ele ko’eni, Koe ma’ulalo taha aipe IAA , koe ‘uhi kae lava ke ‘KAU MAI AI ‘AE KAU “NOFO VE’E HALA moe KAU –HALA” ke lue FAKATAHA MO KALANGA FAKATAHA ,he ‘oku nau teunga tatau pe mo Sisu,
Mahalo kapau koe Sio ia moe vakai ia ‘ae Kau Satusi moe kau Ma’olunga koe “rebellion” ka koe vakai koee ‘ae kau “nofo-ve’ehala moe “Kau he hala” koe “peace” , hei’ilo kihe lau ‘’ae Kau Lotu..
‘oku mou pehee kapau na’e teunga Langilangi’ia mo heka ha Kameli pe koha Hoosi kuo teunga ‘ia,, ‘e fie ‘ofi atu hataha kiai, ‘ikai ‘e tuli e kakai moe NAMUKUU HE OFI ATU KIAI,,,,,,,,
’ouaaaa, KOE HA’ELE FAKATU’I ne fai ‘e Sisu, Koe Ha’ele ‘ae ‘KAU MASIVA” mahalo koe toki ‘Aho ‘eni ne HUU atu AI ‘E KAU MASIVA ki Loto Selusalema, fefe si’I kau VALA-MAHAEHAE MOE KAU MOHE ‘ULI , ‘ikai ‘oku nau Kalanga fiefia, mo hiva fiefia,, he ‘afee ai hataha ‘e TEUNGA IAA ke fie FONONGA FAKATAKA moha kakai pehe ni …
Faifekau, malie ho’o fakatokanga kihe “Ha’ele ‘ae Tama-‘Otua’,na’e ‘ikai koha “Laka-fakahaahaa” HE Koe Laka atu ‘ae Tu’i ‘oe Melino,,’e Laka-fakahaahaa pe ia Kihe Kau “teunga ‘iaa, ka kihe kau Nofo Masiva mo Tukuhausia, koe “Laka ‘oe fakamo’ui”………
Toki fakakato mai ..koe kautalanoa atu pe …….
Sami.
tv
ki he taimi ne 'omai ai 'a Sisu mo Palapasa 'o tu'u ka e 'eke ki he
fu'u kakai pe ko hai 'e fakahaofi pea ko hai 'e kalusefai? 'Ikai ko e
fu'u kakai "masiva" 'oku ke lau ki ai na'a nau kaila ke kalusefai e
tama tu'i ko ena 'oku ke 'uhinga ki ai? Kapau te tau nofo ho'o
tasilisili pea 'oku tonu ke tau pehee; 'ikai ngata pee he'enau masiva,
ka 'oku nau toe ngangau. Ke 'osi pe 'enau hanga hake 'o tala ko e
tu'i, pea ha'u moe melino, pe nau toe hanga hake nautolu 'o kaila ke
kalusefai. Ka 'oku ou tui 'oku 'ikai pehe.
Jesus was rebellious but he was clever. Ka 'oku 'ikai ko e fa'ahinga
rebellious 'oku ke fakakaukau ki ai mo ke kei piki ki ai
tv
kamata mei ai hano fakafotunga mo hano tukutuku lelei 'o e me'a 'oku
hoko 'i Selusalema he ngaahi 'aho Pasova. Ka e faingofua hono folo
(hhf), 'o e Sisu rebellious. He 'oku hangee 'oku ngali fu'u fefeka ke
tali mo digest ha Sisu 'oku ngali fakafepaki.
Ne fai 'e Sisu e talanoa fakataataa malie ('oku tau maheni mo ia), ki
he 'eiki na'e 'alu ki ha fonua mama'o ke ma'u mo'ona ha Pule'anga. (v.
11), 'oku talamai ai 'a e tukunga fakaukau 'a e kau fanongo -
* 'oku ne ofi ki Selusalema, pea 'amanaki e kakai 'oku panaki 'aupito
'a e fakahaa mai 'o Pule'anga 'o e 'Otua!
Kaikehe ko e talanoa fakataataa ko eni 'a Sisu 'oku ngaue'aki 'e he
tokolahi ki he faka'ai'ai 'o e "prosperity teaching" - hangee kiate au
'oku tatele he kau nofo ve'ehala 'oku ke 'uhinga ki ai Sami, pea mo
'enau fiefia ... ka ko hono 'ave 'o e talanoa ni ki he context 'o e
'aho ko ia pea 'oku kehe fau e 'uhinga 'a Sisu (he uses metaphor &
sarcasm - being rebellious in a very clever way). Ne fai 'e Sisu 'ene
talanoa ko eni 'i he'ene kei 'ia Sakeasi - ko e tangata 'oku ne
fakafofonga 'a e ngaue hala'aki 'o e koloa mo e kakava (tax) - and
that's the proper context of how this parables should be understood.
Ko e talanoa fakataataa 'a Sisu fekau'aki mo e anga e hoko mai 'a e
Pule'anga 'oe 'Otua. Pea ne ne fai eni 'i hono uike faka'osi 'i mamani
- naanaafaki 'ene hifo ki Selusalema 'o a'u ai pee ki he kolosi. 'ai
ia ko 'ene talanoa ki he'ene kau tisaipale 'a e founga 'o e hoko mai
'a e Pule'anga 'o e 'Otua. Manatu ki he me'a ne 'uhinga ki ai 'a Luke
(v.11 - 'amanaki e kakai 'oku panaki mai 'a e Pule'anga?). Toki
talanoa leva 'a Sisu ki he 'eiki ne " ... 'alu ki ha fonua mama'o ke
ma'u mo'ona ha pule'anga ...". Ko e me'a totonu pe eni ne hoko 'i
'Isilelei (the story has an authentic background). Ko e Helota mo e
ngaahi tu'i ko ia 'o 'Isileli ne pau ke nau 'alu ki Loma 'o ma'u mai
honau "mafai tu'i", mei a Sisa pea nau toki foki mai leva kuo
faka-'ofisiale ko e Tu'i. Pea ko kinautolu 'oku nau 'ilo ki he
hisitolia, ko 'Asilusi 'a e tu'i ofiofi holo he taimi 'o Sisu ne 'alu
ki Loma pea hanga hake kau Siu ia 'o fakafepaki ... etc. 'A ia ko e
fanongo 'a e kau fanongo ki he talanoa fakataataa ko eni 'oku 'i ai e
fa'ahinga mahino 'oku nau hanga ai 'o relate this story by Jesus.
Na'a fai ha hipa ki he talanoa 'a Sisu, ka ko hono kakano, ko e
faka'amu 'a Sisu ke mahino kuo pau ke "'alu" (the big one is - 'alu),
'o ma'u mo'ona hono Pule'anga, pea toki foki mai. 'A ia ko 'ene huu ki
Selusalema 'oku 'ikai ko ha tu'i ia, he kuo pau ke "'alu" ia (ki he
Tamai?), 'o 'omai hono Pule'anga, pea ko 'ene foki mai ko ia pea ta
toki fakahaa ange 'a e investment na'a ta fai 'i mamani. Ka 'oku 'i ai
fanga ki'i felefele 'o e ngaahi taleniti ne tuku (toki fai ha lave ki
ai 'amui ange), ka ko e me'a mahu'inga kiate au ko hangee 'oku 'ikai
kainga e hifo mai 'a Sisu ia ki Selusalema fakatu'i 'oku tau lau, pea
mo 'ene talanoa he 'api 'o Sakeasi fekau'aki mo pau ke 'alu ka e toki
foki mai mo hono Pule'anga.
Ka e fai mu'a ha hoko ki Tusite na'a 'osi e uike ia ......
vaohi...@aol.com
sami
Tv::
Malo Sami ka 'oku mama'o fau ho'o tasilisili. Tau hiki fakalaka angee
ki he taimi ne 'omai ai 'a Sisu mo Palapasa 'o tu'u ka e 'eke ki he
fu'u kakai pe ko hai 'e fakahaofi pea ko hai 'e kalusefai? 'Ikai ko e
fu'u kakai "masiva" 'oku ke lau ki ai na'a nau kaila ke kalusefai e
tama tu'i ko ena 'oku ke 'uhinga ki ai? Kapau te tau nofo ho'o
tasilisili pea 'oku tonu ke tau pehee; 'ikai ngata pee he'enau masiva,
ka 'oku nau toe ngangau.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Malo Tevita e faofao mai e potalanoa , pea 'oku fakafiefia kiate au, 'ae vahevahe kuo tuku mai.. Koe mo'oni koe " Kau Masiva koe Kau ngangau", pea koe sipinga pe ia 'ae kau ngangau, Kohai pe ha pe ha taha 'e a'u ange kia kinautolu Ko'enau "kau ia".. Koe me'a koee 'oku ou malie'ai ai, koe KAKAI KOEE NENAU KAU HE FAKALANGILNGI'I 'O SISU ;;
1. KOE FANAU.
2.KOE KAU MASIVA.
NA'E LOMIA 'ehe kau Falesi MOE KAU AKONGA 'ae si'I Fanau, kana'ane "MALIMALI" pe 'one folofolange, "Oua, tuku pe kenau hiva, he "KA 'IKAI 'E HIVA 'AE NGAAHI MAKA".
'Oku 'iai nai ha lau mahino mai 'ae faa'I Kosipeli, Koe Kakai ko'eni ne nau laka mo hiva fakataha moe Fanau, KONAU TOLU PE IA NENAU KAILA KALUSEFAI ?
‘emalava p eke hoko, heKoe ‘aho Kehe ‘ae Ha’ele ‘ae Tama ki Selusalema pea hili mei ai ha ngaahi ‘aho pea Toki fai hono fakamaau’i..’emalava pe..[hange koe lave ‘a Petani]
Ka koe ‘uhi, he ‘engali, Fakatonuhia’i e Kau Falesi moe kau Ma’olunga kae ‘um’aa ‘e kautufunga, kae si’I “Tukuaki’I” pe ‘ae kau Maisva.. ‘e pehee konautolu pen e nau Kalanga ‘Hako ‘o Tevita konautolu pe nenau toe Kalanga KALUSEFAI………
Fakamolemole pe ,’oku mahino pe ‘ae Tokateline, ‘Oku ‘ikai ha taha tene tonuhia, pea ‘oku tatau aipe ‘ae Masiva moe ta’e masiva ‘oku tau kei angahala kotoa pe , ka koe anga pe ‘ae fakatalanoa atu..
Sami.
tv
'Oku ou fakakaukau hono lau 'ia Sione 'a e taimi ko eni (vahe 18 &
19), 'oku ne faka'ali mai ai 'a e fanga ki'i me'a ke tanaki kia Luke
'oku fakama'unga ki ai e fa'ahita'u ko eni. 'Oku hangee kiate au 'oku
pehee 'e Sione ko Kaiafasi ne ne fale'i e kau Siu 'oku sai ke mate
tokotaha for them all. Ko 'ene hangee ia 'oku malele holo 'a e kakai
he'enau si'i kumi ha me'a ke nau piki ki ai. Do we realise that these
people were under foreign rule? Do we realise ne nofo 'a Sisu he fonua
that were occupied by force? Kau masiva & fanau? 'oku 'i ai hono
signifigant 'o e ngaue'aki e "fanau" alongside the poor. ko e fanau
symbolises no voice/authority ... kau he kau lowest in the jewish
culture. 'ikai ngata ai, ko hono mahino'i e katoanga ko eni 'i hono
historical context 'oku talamai, if i was a good patriotic jew ko 'eku
teuteu he ta'u 'oku fakama'unga ki he'eku feinga ki Selusalema he
Pasova. pea teu taki kotoa ki ai hoku famili.
Ko e me'a leva 'oku ou sio atu ki ai the occupation and rule by force
& unfair tax system was on the people's mind daily! Imagine living in
such a volatile environment. ko e fa'ahinga climate ia 'oku ou imagine
that the people were living and if I was there too, ko e tuaia pee
fakamatala mai 'e ha taha ia ha me'a 'oku ngali faka-'amanaki, ko 'ete
lele ia 'o muimui (sounds familiar in Tonga, may be? - 'a e si'i
faka'ofa 'a e kakai he fie muimui ki ha me'a ke fakatau'ataina'i
kinautolu mei he ngaahi ha'i; faka'ekonomika - mamafa 'a e koloa, ha'i
'o e kavenga fk-siasi & cultural responsibilites, ha'i fakasosiale 'o
e fakautuutu 'oe ta'ema'ungauee ... etc).
Sami, kapau te ke fakatokanga'i ki he lave ki he me'a 'a Sisu na'e fai
he Monite 'i he Temipale, I suggest it is a protest against the
religious establishment. 'a ia 'oku 'ikai hano fakatonuhia'i e kau
paipa (falesi, ma'olunga). 'oku 'ikai mahu'inga kiate au 'a e role the
poor & children played he uike faka'osi 'o Sisu. (hangee iate au ko e
me'a ia 'oku ke lave mai ki ai?). 'oku mahu'inga ange kiate au 'a e
messege ne feinga 'a Sisu ke fakamahino. Pea ko e me'a ia ne u
fokotu'u fifili ai ki he anga 'etau nofo mo e pehee ko 'ene ha'ele
faka-tu'i ('a ena ne ke poupou ai kia Sisilia). ko e fa'ahinga Sisu ia
'o e "prosperity teaching", he kapau te tau fakakaukau lelei ki ai, ko
e si'i muimui ai 'a e kau masiva ko e 'uhi foki ko 'enau faka'amu ki
ha taha (misaia), ke ne fk-tau'ataina'i kinautolu - mei he foreign
rule (Loma mo 'ene tukuhau), mei he ha'i 'o e tauhi lao ('a e kau paia
lotu siu), pea fakatau'ataina'i kinautolu mei he ha'i 'o e "nofo
masiva" ... etc.
Sisu fakafepaki? I am starting to like that idea, ka 'oku fai e lotu
mo e kole ke ne 'omai ha konisenisi hangee ha tama'i mata, to be
clever & humble as I try to follow.
sami
Tv::
. Pea ko e me'a ia ne u
fokotu'u fifili ai ki he anga 'etau nofo mo e pehee ko 'ene ha'ele
faka-tu'i ('a ena ne ke poupou ai kia Sisilia). ko e fa'ahinga Sisu ia
'o e "prosperity teaching", he kapau te tau fakakaukau lelei ki ai, ko
e si'i muimui ai 'a e kau masiva ko e 'uhi foki ko 'enau faka'amu ki
ha taha (misaia), ke ne fk-tau'ataina'i kinautolu - mei he foreign
rule (Loma mo 'ene tukuhau), mei he ha'i 'o e tauhi lao ('a e kau paia
lotu siu), pea fakatau'ataina'i kinautolu mei he ha'i 'o e "nofo
masiva" ... etc.
------------------------------------------------------------
malo Tevita e faofao pea 'oku malie ho'o lave 'oku fai mai 'I 'olunga, pea mahalo 'e au koe taha ia he "Konga mahu'inga" ‘oku ke feinga ke fai hano talanoa’i.. pea ‘oku ou poupou kiai..he ‘elava p eke tohoaki’I mai ‘ae Mo’ui ne ‘iai e Kuonga koee, ‘o pa’oto tonu pe he fai ‘oe lotu he kuonga ni.
malo sami.
vaohi...@aol.com
-----Original Message-----
From: mani...@yahoo.co.uk
To: tasil...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 12:36 AM
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Ngaahi 'Aho 'o e Uike Tapu - ko e fifili fo'ou?
Piukala
Behalf Of tv
Sent: Wednesday, 28 March 2007 8:41 AM
To: Tasilisili-he-ngaluope
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Ngaahi 'Aho 'o e Uike Tapu - ko e fifili
fo'ou?
he 'oku mahino pea e'a 'a 'ene 'i he feitu'u na ko e ngaahi 'aho
Katoanga, pea ko e founga 'o 'ene hu 'a ia 'oku fifili'i, ko e kakai
na'anau 'unu mai 'i he falala ko e Tu'i Siu eni. Ne te'eki ke uki 'e
Sisu e fu'u kakai ni ki he 'uhinga 'oku fifili'i, kaekehe 'e kei
fa'iteliha pe 'a e kau sio ki he laka mo 'ene faka'uhinga.
mei he teolosia tu'utu'ukina.
sepesi.
---------
'Oku hangee eni ha mo'unofoa he "modernity", 'a e 'ave 'Otua ke mavahe
ki langi 'o mama'o ia mei mamani. Mahalo ko e me'a ia 'oku fai ai e
tu'utu'ukina ee. Ko e tui 'a e kakai ko e tu'i Siu eni he na'a nau sio
ki he ngaahi "ngaue fakaofo". Ka ko e tafa'aki ia 'e taha 'o Sisu 'oku
ta kei mo'unofoa ai. Ko e vakavakai ki he toenga 'o hono taimi mo 'ene
ngaue na'e fai, pea tautefito ki he'ene ngaahi akonaki 'oku fai ai e
fifili. Ka e pango he 'oku lii mai 'a e ngaahi fo'i tasilisili hangee
ko eni mei a Sepesi, 'oku mo'oni e lau - ko e naa tatau ai pee (and it
is a boring, pea mo kamata ke mole hono kona) pea koe me'a ia mahalo
'oku 'eke mai ai kiate kitaua (siasi) pe ko e haa ko aa 'eta lau ki
hee mo ee, pea ta hanga hake pee 'o pehee atu - 'ikai, kataki 'oku
'ikai ke u kau au he me'a ko ena 'oku ou femou'ekina pe au he lotu ki
hoku tu'i.
------------------------------------------------------------
Tv, na'aku tokanga atu pe ki ho'o pehe, hange ne uki 'e Sisu ha fa'ahi
fakafepaki, pea ko e fa'ahinga teolosia ia 'oku ne to'o e kona 'o e
masima.
Ko e toenga e fakatalanoa, 'oku 'aonga ia ki he teuteu 'o e pekia pea
'oku ou ui ia ko e "Teolosia milituitui".
'ofa mo e lotu.
Sepesi
loke
> haafua. 'Oku hangee 'etau fai e lotu ko e tali pee mo fakafonufonu
> taimi mo tali ai na'a toki 'i ai ha mana mei langi nai, pe ko ha
> supernatural power ke ne fai e me'a 'oku tau faka'amu ki ai. He ko e
> me'a ia 'oku faka'imisi 'i hono teke'i e kau lotu ke nau lotu lotu pee
> mo popohiva pea 'oau te nau kau kihe me'a 'a e kau politiki, me'a
> fakapisinisi, me'a haa mo e haa .... Pea hangee kiate au 'oku ngali
> kuo ngaue'aki ai pee 'e he kau lotu ia e fo'i mahino mo e fa'ahinga
> teolosia ko ia ke nau palupalu ai pee kinautolu 'i 'api siasi mo
> pakipaki.
---
Malie 'a e langalanga mai e ngaahi fakakaukau ka 'oku ou fie'ilo pe pe
'oku 'i ai nai ha fa'ahinga falukunga kakai 'oku fakatefito ki ai e
fakatalanoa ni? Ko e mahino kiate au e fakatalanoa "ha faahinga taha
pe" 'i Tonga ko 'enau lotu ena 'oku pehe. 'Oku fakakoloa 'a ho'o
ngaahi ue'i ka 'oku hoholi hoku loto ke u fanongo mai pe ko e haa nai
ha lau 'a ha ni'ihi faifekau mo kau lotu 'oku mateaki. Pe ko e haa nai
ha lau 'a e kau faifekau, kau faiako, kau setuata, kau ako mo ha taha
pe mei Tonga? hange 'oku lolongo e Tonga 'i he poini ko eni. Ka 'oku
hangehange 'oku mo'oni pe 'i he hange kuo matengunguu 'o 'ikai toe
ngauengaue mai ha taha 'i he fakakaukau ni--"ko 'enau lotu ko e
fakafonufonu taimi pe mo tali ai na'a toki 'i ai ha mana mei
langi..." Ko ha ngahi a'usia mei Tonga ko e fakakoloa mo'oni.
ko e fakakohukohu atu pe,
loke
tv
Ne hoko heni 'a e ngaahi talanoa 'a Sisu 'o hangee nai ha'ane
fakapupunga atu ha tuliki 'o vaavaa ai mo e kakai. Ka e hangee 'oku
talalo holo e kau Falesi, satusi, sikalaipe, herodians ... moe kau
paipa lotu, he kuo mapue holo foki e kakai ia he'enau muimui mo 'enau
malie'ia, pea fie'ilo pee 'ihi ia. Tau 'ilo pee ngaahi me'a 'oku hoko
he ngaahi 'aho katoanga 'i he kolomu'aa.
ko e talanoa 'ilo'i taha ko e 'eke'i 'o e totongi tukuhau - kia hai?
Sisa?. Ko e feinga ai pee foki ha me'a ke 'uhinga ai hano puke tangata
ni 'o tautea'i he kuo kamata ke ngatuu e kakai. ko e fa'ahinga 'aho
pehe ni 'oku fakaalalaa e kau taki & matu'a siu na'a hoko ha
fakafepaki/angatu'u ki he mafai (romans rule), ka e tafaoki hake 'a e
pule'anga 'o fai ha me'a. (manatu 'oku nau 'i he kolomu'a he nen au
'osi fakatee). pea hangee eni 'oku hifo mai 'a e tangata ni (Sisu) ia
mo e fa'ahinga talanoa, fa'ahinga fakahinohino 'oku ne ue'i e loto e
kakai. pea ko e fa'ahinga fekau 'ene ngaahi talanoa 'oku hangee ha
fakafepaki ki he ngaahi mafai (ha'i) 'oku nau tofanga ai.
'ave kia Sisa e me'a 'a Sisa, 'ave ki he 'Otua me'a 'a e 'Otua - ne
fai e lave 'i 'olunga fekau'aki mo e ngaue'aki 'o e konga ni ki hono
fakamavahevahe'i 'o e "lotu" mei he "politiki" (church from state).
'oku ou fokotu'u 'oku 'ikai. 'oku hanga 'e sisu ('i he'eku fakakaukau
atu) 'o tuku atu kiate kinautolu ke nau toe fehu'ia angee pe, 'i he
anga 'enau tauhi lao (scriptures), mo 'enau fusisusia'u e ngaahi
fakahinohino 'a e "lotu", ko e me'a kotoa he mamani 'oku 'a hai? kapau
ko e kakai lotu kinautolu mo e kakai tauhi ki ha 'Otua 'oku ne
katokatoi (ne ne fakatupu e 'univeesi), pea ko hai leva 'oku 'a'ana 'a
e me'a kotoa?
'a ia kapau koe fehu'i eni ko e fie'ilo mo'oni ki ha tali faka'otua,
pea te nau foki 'o fifili'i, pea 'i he'enau fifili'i ko ia 'e pole'i
kinautolu mo e me'a 'oku 'oange ma'a e 'Otua (what we credit to God).
ka ko e 'eke ni foki ia ko e feinga'i ha me'a ke fai mo puke ai e
siana ni ke 'oua toe hoko atu 'ene ngaahi talanoa fakafepaki. ko e toe
haa ha 'uhinga te nau feinga ai ke puke? kaikehe, mei hano fifili'i 'o
e tipeiti ko eni 'a Sisu, ngali 'asi mai 'oku 'ikai fakangata pee
'otua kihe ngaahi me'a "fakalaumalie"? koe pole ia (kiate au) 'oku
fufu he talanoa 'ilo'i ni. vakai ne ne 'osi fakanofonofo 'aki 'ene
talanoa ki he tauhi ngoue (parables - vahe 20 - 9 ...), 'i he 'aho
tatau pee, kimu'a pea 'unu mai e kau poto 'o monoi 'aki 'a Sisu e fo'i
'eke fakafihi ko eni 'o e totongi tukuhau. 'oku hanga 'e he talanoa
fakataataa ko ia 'o fakanafala e kau taki moe kau pule, he'enau
kaiha'a e me'a 'oku 'ikai 'a nautolu? ko 'ene talaange ia
(sarcastically), kuo fakaehaua mo kai ha'a e kau taki lotu mo e kau
pule (govt - Rome), 'a e koloa mo e kakai 'a e 'Otua.
(ko e fokotu'u atu pee)
tv
'oku 'ikai fu'u mahino kiate au 'a e 'aho ni, ka e hangee ko e 'aho
eni ke fai ai e ngaahi 'alea 'a Siutasi ki hono lavaki'i 'o Sisu! Ko e
me'a 'oku ou fifili ki ai pee ko e haa nai ne toe fiema'u ai ha taha
ke ne tuhu'i mo e fakahinohino 'a Sisu? Ko e 'ai 'ataa ne tautoi
holo'a Sisu pe le'ohi. Ne fai holo 'ene vaa moe fakapupunga mo e kakai
he 'ata'ataa loa pea ne sio ki ai e taha kotoa.
ko e me'a ia 'oku ou malie'ia ai he toe 'ai ko eni 'o Siutasi ke ne
fai e ngaue. ko e haa ne toe 'ai ai ha taha hili ko ia 'oku 'ikai toi
holo 'a Sisu! ko 'eku fakakaukau atu pee (moe taalafili), 'oku pau pee
ko e feinga ko eni ke faka'ehi'ehi mei ha hoko ha vaakovi mo ha
moveuveu fakapolitikale 'i he fu'u kakai (they want to avoid a riot
happening). he kuo kamata foki ke malie 'a e ngaahi talanoa mo e
ngaahi malanga 'a Sisu, pea ka nau ka puke ta'e 'uhinga, faifai pea
ngatuu e kakai 'o tupu ha moveuveu pea iku faikehe Pasova.
ne fai ai e alea mo Siutasi ke vakai ki ha taimi 'e taka tokotaha ai
'a Sisu pea 'i ha feitu'u 'oku mavahe mei he tokolahi. ko e me'a lahi
'o e 'aho ia ko e mahino 'a e 'ikai pee mahino ki he kau pule 'a e
me'a 'oku 'uhinga ki ai 'a Sisu. Ne ne tala koaa 'oku faingata'a ke
huu pe mahino ki he koloa'ia ..... pea koe kakai ne nau si'i nofo 'o
faka'amu ki ha fa'ahinga ongoongo mo ha taumu'a ke nau si'i piki ki
ai. pea ngali ko hono pule'anga mo hono fekau 'oku fepaki/ pea koe
fakafepaki ki he kakai ni (kau pule fakamamani), pea 'e iku ki he
kolosi (mate). vakai ki he kau ako ne nau mate masiva kotoa pea mo
faka-ma'ata.
(ko e langalanga mo e fokotu'u atu na'a hoko ai ha ngaahi fifili)
seni taniela
--- tv <mani...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> 'ave kia Sisa e me'a 'a Sisa, 'ave ki he 'Otua me'a
> 'a e 'Otua - ne
> fai e lave 'i 'olunga fekau'aki mo e ngaue'aki 'o e
> konga ni ki hono
> fakamavahevahe'i 'o e "lotu" mei he "politiki"
> (church from state).
> 'oku ou fokotu'u 'oku 'ikai. 'oku hanga 'e sisu ('i
> he'eku fakakaukau
> atu) 'o tuku atu kiate kinautolu ke nau toe fehu'ia
> angee pe, 'i he
malo dave lafo....ko e faofao atu pee
ko e 'etau pehee ke fakataha'i e church and state,
what does it mean in practical application..??does it
mean that we(church)should labor to change/sustain the
present form of govt. or does it mean that the
govt.should involve in running of the church? pe te
tau hangee ko e ni'ihi i amelika oe kau kalisitiane
they're trying to form a "Christian Democracy"--i am
not sure whether there is such thing!!
i do agree that Jesus did NOT mean that the church and
state should be separated yet I do not agree that
Jesus meant that they should be "combined"--and one of
the reasons is that history proves...the church alone
cannot run a nation politically ...on the other hand,
the state alone cannot run a nation politically. both
are vulnerable to be corrupted. it seems that best
form of govt. is an intersection of "separation" and
"combination" --they have a room to combine and they
have room to be separated...
is it humbling for the church to realize should they
be given a chance to run a nation politically, they
are bound to corrupt it...no matter how spiritual we
claim to be....
anyway dave koe faofao pe!! malie aupito hono tofi mai
e teu pekia!!fakatauange ke tau ma'u ha uike tapu fonu
kelesi'ia
'ofa atu
tv
he tells story so people go and think. and have some guidence for
their prayers & hope. my prayer is - Sisu, kataki he'eku 'omai koe 'o
ha'i pee mo fakangatangata he'eku ngaahi me'a fk-siasi. God help me
infuse the compassion of Jesus in everything I do - pe koe alea'i ha
tikite ma'ama'a ki Tonga, pe ko e tutu 'o Nuku'alofa, pe ko e feinga'i
e hina hu'akau .... 'a e haa pee. Everything is yours, and nothing
belongs to the empire!
tuku atu e Tu'apulelulu kia koe tokoua, he he koe 'aho ia e 'Ohomohe.
Na'a te tasilisili atu ai ka e ngalo ke 'ai 'emau tepile
seni taniela
--- tv <mani...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> bro, finding a definite answer isn't a very jesusy
> thing .... hahaha.
> he tells story so people go and think. and have some
> guidence for
> their prayers & hope. my prayer is - Sisu, kataki
>=======================
poupou atu!! there are some room thinking and
wrestling hah!! great job!!
tv
in practical application..??does it mean that we(church)should labor
to change/sustain the present form of govt. or does it mean that the
govt.should involve in running of the church? pe te tau hangee ko e
ni'ihi i amelika oe kau kalisitiane they're trying to form a
"Christian Democracy"--i am not sure whether there is such thing!!
Tanaki atu pee 'i he kei fakalaulauloto 'o e uike tapu.
'Oku ou mahu'inga ke fakatokanga'i e talanoa fakataataa 'a Sisu ki he
kau tauhi ngoue vaine. 'A ia ne ne fai eni pea hoko atu ai pee 'a hono
fehu'ia fekau'aki mo e totongi tukuhau. 'Oku ne langa'i 'i he
fakakaukau mo em anatu 'a e kau fanongo (tautefito ki he kau Falesi mo
e kau Taula'eiki), 'a 'Aisea 5. 'Oku nau 'uhinga'i leva e talanoa 'a
Sisu ki he ngoue ko 'Isileli & Selusalema, pea mo e kau tauhi ngoue ko
kinautolu ia kau Taki Lotu & kau fakahinohino lao. Vakai ki he tala 'a
'Aisea, " ... ne ne too ai e vaine fungani ... pea 'amanaki ki ha
kalepi huofaki .... ka ko eni koe kalepi vao ...". ko e fa'ahinga 'ea
fakapolitikale eni 'o e uike Pasova. Hifo mai 'a Sisu he Sapate Paame,
ne ne 'osi 'ilo lelei e iku'anga 'o e uike ko eni, he vakai ki he hu'u
'a e tala fakataa - ne ne fekau mai hono foha, pea nau tamate'i mo ia.
Ka koe kakano 'o e talanoa fakataataa ni 'oku ne tatala 'a e me'a kuo
iku ki ai 'a e kau tauhi ngoue. Ne ne fekau mai 'a e kau palofita, pea
ko e faka'osi eni 'o e kau palofita. ka ko hono kehee 'o e palofita ni
he ko hono foha tonu. 'Oku faka'osi ai pee talanoa 'a Sisu mo e fehu'i
- ko e haa nai 'e fai kiate kinautolu 'e he 'eiki 'o e ngoue vaine? -
te ne hoko mai 'o faka'auha 'a e kau fa'a 'o e ngoue vaine pea 'oange
'a e ngoue vaine ki ha kakai kehe.
ko e talanoa ai pe eni 'a Sisu fekau'aki mo e mo'ui 'a 'Isileli (as a
nation). mei he talanoa 'a Sisu 'oku fakafofonga 'e Selusalema 'a e
kau falesi & kau taula'eiki lotu, 'a ia 'oku 'ikai ngata pee he'enau
fakafoofoolahi & fakapulepule'i si'ikaki, but they have become
exclusivist. Arrogant! kuo 'ikai ke nau tali 'a e founga 'a Sisu, 'a e
founga melino, 'a e founga 'oku ne 'omai ko e 'uhi ke nau hoko ai 'a
'Isileli koe maama ki he mamani, the kingdom-wau where they were to be
light to God's world.
'oku hoko mai leva 'a e 'Otua ke faka'auha 'a e kau tauhi ngoue, pea
'ange 'a e ngoue ki ha ni'ihi kehe. 'oku tau 'ilo mei he hisitolia
(fakaofi he taimi hono hiki e ngaahi kosipeli), ne hanga ai 'e Loma 'o
haveki 'a Selusalema. ko e ki'i kau angatu'u ne nau kamata hake pea
faofao'i ai 'e Loma hon ivi fakakautau 'o nau haveki ai si'i
Selusalema. Ko e fakamaau ia (judgement) 'a e 'Otua ki he kakai
'Isileli. That is the judgemnet that alot of the New Testament is
alluding to, ka kuo 'ai 'e he ni'ihi ko e 'aho fakamui (heee ...
Crusader eee!). Jesus, by telling this story 'i hono ngaahi 'aho
faka'osi, 'oku ne 'osi 'ilo lelei 'ae ngaahi me'a 'oku hoko. Kuo 'ikai
tali 'e 'Isileli 'a e kingdom-way he was holding out for, pea ko e
me'a pee 'e hoko ko hono utu 'e 'Isileli 'a e kalepi vao ... 'a e
judgement, by Rome destroying the Temple & Jerusalem.
Seni, in light of what's happening in Tonga, I prefer to see it
through the story Jesus was telling. May be God has left these "kau
tauhi ngoue" ke nau tokanga'i si 'ene ma'ala ko Tonga? I don't know.
Ka ko e fehu'i mahu'inga 'apee - what are as followers to do? 'oku
echo 'e he talanoa fakataataa 'a Sisu 'a ngoue vaine 'a e 'Otua 'ia
'Aisea 5. we are the Israel to his world. Ne ne fili 'a 'Isileli ke
light to the world, and so to us in the world to "go forth and
multiply ... fill the earth". rumuor has it though, ko e kau tauhi
'oku fakasio mai e 'eiki ia ki he stewarship and all he finds is
selfishness, he looks for responsibility and i dare want to know what
he finds.
'oku tau nofo ko eni 'oku tau 'ilo kotoa - ko kinautolu 'oku tuku mai
ke nau tauhi e ngoue 'oku nau 'osi 'ilo lelei 'a e "mo'oni", 'a e
"justice", "fairness" .. etc. 'oku nau 'osi 'ilo lelei ka 'oku nau
mimio e ngaahi me'a ni, as you mentioned -corrupt these to suit what
they want and to take care of themselves. and they don't really care
if someone gets hurt along the way. fakaoli leva, ko e fekau ko ee 'e
he 'eiki 'o e ngoue 'a 'ene kau talafekau (pe 'oku tau ui e kakai ni
ko e kau palofita, faifekau, kau akonaki ...etc), ke nau 'alu 'o 'omai
ha fua, 'oku si'i feinga'i ai pee ke fai mo puke 'e he kau sotia Loma
'o taki ki kalevale 'o tutuki. they get the same treatment!
tv
e ngaahi me'a 'oku hoko (and esp 'i Tonga), 'oku fu'u faingata'a ke
tau tuhu 'o blame ha taha, pe ha faha'i (pro-demo, pro-monarch,
church .. etc). dear me, there is enough blame to go around. but as
God with Israel, He then says to us, the world; my world, everything
in it - ministry of fisheries, ministry of labour & commerce, ministry
of education .... all that are in my world - It isn't simply that as a
society we have turned away from God and are reaping the results; we
have and we haven't, and we must avoid simplistic analyses. Uike ni,
ko e hoko mai ia 'a e foha 'o e 'eiki 'oku 'a'ana 'a e ngoue ke vakai
the tenants.Hoko mai 'a Sisu ki he ngoue (mamani, ki Tonga), kuo
fakangaloku e lao Sapate, kuo lahi e faikava ia ka e li'aki e hoa pe
ia 'i 'api, ki he Tonga kuo fakali'eli;aki 'e he siasi e ngaahi lesoni
tohitapu he'enau ako ka e teke ako tekinolosia, ki he mamani mo e
tonga kuo tekemu'a e ngaahi me'a ia 'oku lahi ange ai e tupu fk-
seniti. 'oku tau 'osi 'ilo pee 'a e fa'a 'ohake he ngaahi fktaha 'a e
Siasi 'a e 'eke pe 'oku fefee ngaahi ngaue fakalaumalie pea paasi'i
fakavave ka e hoko ki he fakataha'i e langa holo ... etc. pea ne hanga
'o veuki 'a e ngaahi fu'u tepile fefakatau'aki hono temipale, ka e
hangee 'oku tau 'ohovale!
Kiate au, things have got too big for a merely religious approach,
focussing on our personal sins. mo'oni e lea 'a e kau muli - all hands
on deck - mei he kau pisinisi, kau politiki, kau lotu, kau va'inga,
kau ako .. etc. everyone in his ngoue vaine. church & state? that is
part of the problem, ko e 'ai ke mavahevahe 'a e ongo me'a ni. frankly
the whole division between sacred and secular, between church and farm
and state and whatever, between prayer and work, is part of the
problem. fokotu'u atu ke tau fakalaulauloto he uike ni 'a e me'a kuo
hoko he'ene ngoue vaine. pea toki fai ai hano fakaa'ua'u.
talamonuu mo e 'ofa ki he teu 'o e fakamanatu 'o e easter.
seni taniela
--- tv <mani...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> faka'osi'osi atu ai leva .... 'oku ou pehee ai 'i
> ho'o fifili Seni, ko
> e ngaahi me'a 'oku hoko (and esp 'i Tonga), 'oku
> fu'u faingata'a ke
> tau tuhu 'o blame ha taha, pe ha faha'i (pro-demo,
> pro-monarch,
> church .. etc). dear me, there is enough blame to go
fakamalo tv. hono tofi mai e uike ni...'oku ai e
ngaahi maama lahi...
fakatokanga'i na'e 'iai e 'uhinga 'e ua pe tolu na'aku
"hae hifo" ai e temo mo 'akilisi. 'oku 'ikai ko
ha'aku blame 'a "temo" pe teu fiekau he "tautolo
pelepela" --neongo ne lahi ange 'eku blame pe
kitautolu lotu.
1) koe 'uhinga 'eku feinga ke tukuhifo'i e temo--ko e
talu mei he laka 2005 mo hono tukuhifo e pule'anga etc
as if there is no evil in "tongan pro-democracy"
2)ko e lahi 'a e hangee ko e tefito'i misiona ia 'a
tautolu lotu ko e "change the system"(from monarchy to
democracy)--at all cost!!pea one sided (or two sided e
siasi..) 'o 'ikai 'asi that we SHOULD be lights to
both sides.
3)if we label the govt as "evil" or our source of
problems--i wanted to clarify then that "the pro-demo
is also evil"--we are dealing with two evils...then we
have to becareful not to condemn one only and not the
other.
4)again you defended akilisi(by saying --ko e tangata
pee mo ia hangee ko kitaua!!) i can't say more BUT YOU
DID NOT DEFEND E hou'eiki 'O NOMUKA from tearing down
by others!!!lol!!
'ofa atu pea malo e langalanga mai
tv
emotions shift to another level. hangee 'oku 'ai ke tau ki'i
fakamolumalu 'o fakalaulauloto 'apee. ko e pehee koaa koe pekia 'a
Sisu ko hotau fetongi? but what is that suppose to mean? i personally
believe 'oku tau downgrade e pekia by viewing it as this cheap
"atonement theology", and so we tend to feel a little sad he ko e
fakamanatu 'o e pekia nai? kaikehe, ko 'eku kamata atu ai he 'oku ou
malie'ia ho'o faka'aa'aa mai and it makes my easter. as we keep the
dialogue 'o tautefito ki hono fakafelave'i ki Tonga, easter start to
make sense in a fresh kind of way.
first, i hope i don't come across as defending anyone. kapau 'oku
pehee, soli atu. ko e faka'amu pe eni ia ke scatch ha fa'ahinga way so
we a church to the world; 'akilsi & the demos, govt & even the current
church. i had picked up from various opinions (see the Tonga Update
first posts. it does asked - 'oku kei sai ko aa e tokotaha ni?), what
is that supose to mean? but more so, how am I a follower of christ
suppose to response? we can either encourage others to create a
certain view of the demos or we can remind them (as i thought I had
done) that Christ was for all. No exclusiviness!
ka e hoko atu ai pee he theme of evil he 'oku kamata 'asi hake he
tepile 'e taha. and hope we can encourage further thoughts on the
subject, tautefito ki he uike eni.
kapau 'e folahi e ngaahi kosipeli kotoa 'o tau sio ki he me'a 'oku
hiki ai infront of us, we would see a nice story about jesus and what
he has been doing. now, this week (hono uike faka'osi - and as we have
the whole gospels infront of us) we see the forces of evil - every one
of them - alll come together to take jesus on. political power 'o Loma
mo Helota 'oku 'aakitu'a 'o pikinima mai mo Kaiafasi mo e kau taki
lotu corrupt 'o Selusalema. toe 'akitu'a mai mo e ta'e tali 'e he kau
falesi 'a Sisu mo e pule'anga fo'ou ne ne malanga'i. pea ko e konga 'o
e kosipeli 'oku malie 'e taha ko e a'u 'a Sisu ki he kolosi 'oku 'ikai
ko e ngaue pee 'a e pagan nations, ka e toe kau ai mo 'isileli 'a eni
kuo nau kaila 'oku 'ikai ha toe tu'i ka ko Sisa pe!
through out the gospels ne fetaulaki 'a Sisu moe ngaahi evil kehekehe
and in a personal level too - the demonic spirit that yell out at
Jesus pea ne kapusi, ko e tahi hou ne ne lolomi, ko e "power of
darkness" ne lea fekau'aki mo ia he poo faka'osi, ko e kau sotia Loma,
ko e tama lavaki, ko e si'i kauako mo 'enau ilifia, the corrupt court.
katoa eni ko e forces of evil are all comming together. manatu ki he
kau tu'u ve'ehala mo 'enau manuki, 'a ia ne tu'u 'o lea hake he ve'e
kolosi " .. kapau ko e 'alo koe 'o e 'Otua ..." - that echo the
temptation he toafa!
ko e kosipeli ke folahi kotoa ka e maama kehe 'a e uike ni, pea mo e
kolosi. he 'oku mahino leva ko e a'u mai ko eni ki he ngaahi 'aho
faka'osi, evil, and all his might has given jesus, has given God its
best. Death. ko mate koe height of anti-God. the denial of god's
creation. yup, evil gave it its best shot. ko Siutasi mo 'ene lavaki,
mo Pita mo 'ene fakafisinga, ko e fanga ki'i felefele pee of the
downward spirial of evil. Evil, having it's last big shot at God.
ko e me'a 'oku 'omai 'e he kosipeli 'oku 'ikai ko ha philosophical
explanation of evil and all about it. it is actually the telling of an
event of how God deals with evil. when we read through the Old
testament about the exodus, the exile, ko e me'a tatau eni 'oku hoko
he uike ni, 'a e ala mai 'a e 'Otua ki hono kakai 'o fakafoki mei he
fakapopula. But actually God is dealing with the dark power of chaos
this week, 'ikai ngata pee he poltical, structural, organisational, ka
'i he personal level. Some says, the cross is a victory to work out.
And so ......
evil and the power of darkness roams in Tonga, ka ko e hala mo e
templates to victory is to be worked out this week. how to do that?
'oku totonuai ke tau challenge ourselves with tougher questions, ka e
tukutuku atu aa e toki mafana pee he taimi pekia pea 'osi atu pe
easter pea hoko atu e tau tolo pelepela.
Sitiveni K Faupula
>From: "tv" <mani...@yahoo.co.uk>
>Reply-To: tasil...@googlegroups.com
>To: "Tasilisili-he-ngaluope" <tasil...@googlegroups.com>
>Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Ngaahi 'Aho 'o e Uike Tapu - ko e fifili fo'ou?
>Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 16:23:45 -0700
>
>ko e pehee koaa koe pekia 'a
>Sisu ko hotau fetongi? but what is that suppose to mean? i personally
>believe 'oku tau downgrade e pekia by viewing it as this cheap
>"atonement theology", and so we tend to feel a little sad he ko e
>fakamanatu 'o e pekia nai?
----
tevita, malo e fk'a'a pea 'ofa 'oku lelei pe me'a hono kotoa. ko e ki'i
fifili pe eni pea kataki pe na 'oku ai ha me'a ia 'i he ngaahi fetohi'aki 'i
he supiesi koeni kuo 'ikai keu fktokanga'i. ka 'oku 'ikai ke 'uhinga malie
kia au 'a e pehe 'oku tau downgrade e pekia by viewing it as this cheap
atonement theology. ko hono 'uhinga pe ko e 'ikai ke fk-ma'ala'ala mai 'a e
alternative/s - rich alternative/s - ke makatu'unga ai ha 'aku fkfuofua pe
'oku really cheap ko aa e atonement theology.
'ofa 'oku 'ikai keu fk-mole taimi atu,
skf
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tv
he laumalie 'i he fie muimui 'oku fai. Kataki, kuo meimei huu hake 'a
e va'inga fakafo'ituitui ia he tepile ni, ka na'e fokotu'u ke fifili'i
ha ngaahi fakaukau fo'ou. Ko 'eku 'uhinga ko e fo'i palakafi 'oku ke
tokanga mai ki ai ko e lau fakafo'ituitui pe ia 'a'aku 'i he tu'unga
'oku ou 'i ai he taimi ni. Ka ko hai 'oku ne 'ilo. tuku ke fai ha
teketeke atu ai, pea tokoni mai.
Ko e me'a 'oku ou a'u ki ai he taimi ni ko e anga maheni he taimi
pekia ni 'a 'eku fanongo he - " ne pekia 'a Sisu ma'aku; ne pekia ko
hoku fetongi ... etc" - ko e haa ko aa hono 'uihnga eni. talu e tupu
hake 'i Tonga mo e fanongo he fo'i kupu'i lea ko eni. but what dies
that mean? I am struggling now to make sense of ; "Jesus died for me".
'oku 'uhinga nai eni he'ikai keu toe mate au? 'oku 'uhinga nai eni ka
u ka 'tali 'a Sisu' I get my physical life back somehow?. ko e
fakamolemole 'oku ui nai ko e fakamolemole kapau 'oku fiema'u ke fai
ha totongi? Jesus died as a payment for our sins means forgiveness
demand a payment? some of the questions I struggled with. He 'oku
hangee kiate au 'oku tautau 'a e fakakaukau 'o e atonement ki he fo'i
veesi 'ia Ma'ake 10, (v.45) - give his life a ransom for many; (na'e
tuku 'ene mo'ui ke huhu'i 'aki ha tokolahi, he'ene fetongi kinautolu).
but what is this suppose to mean in my life here & now.
ko e talu 'eku tupu mo e manako he 'apitanga pekia. fakamafana ai pee
hono fakamanatu 'a e "pekia 'a Sisu ma'aku". ka ko ai pee! 'ikai keu
toe 'ilo 'e au pee koe haa ko aa e me'a 'oku 'uhinga ki ai. ko 'eku
fifili ki ai he taimi ni 'oku haa mai, koe fo'i fakakaukau ko eni 'o e
"pekia ma'aku", ko e drive mei he enlightment - ko e mo'ui faka-
kalisitiane 'oku ne rescue people from the evil world, fakamolemole
'eku angahala he taimi ni, pea sokosoka maka ai pee 'o tali ki he
hevani 'oku lau 'e he hiva 'apitanga - " .... 'oku ai ha kolo fungani
'oku ui ko hevani ..... kuo teu'i ma'a e kakai, te nau tali 'a e
'eiki ....". tooatu e hiva ia! ko e fakakaukau ia 'oku ngali ha'i ki
ai 'a e "atonement theology" ne talu 'eku tupu hake mo hono tala he
ta'u ki he ta'u. and i think it doesn't say much about evil, about
what's happening in my world. 'oku ou pehee ai 'oku tonu ke faluku mai
'a e "problem of evil" he taimi pekia ni, he ko e hifo 'a Sisu ki
Selusalema to deal with all forces of evil 'ai ia ko hono malohi taha
'o e power of darkness is the cross. That to me 'oku kamata ke tatala
hifo 'a e 'uhinga 'o e pekia. 'oku hala'ataa keu lava 'e au 'o faka-
kainga 'a e fo'i "atonement theology" angamaheni neu tupu hake 'o
fanongo ai mo e me'a 'oku hoko 'i Tonga. cannot! I say it is a little
too cheap. very passive & ineffective.
ka ko hono toe fakafoki 'o Ma'ake 10:45, ki hono tangutu'anga in the
gospel, 'oku hu'u mai mei he popolave 'a e Sisu, Sione & Semisi, ki
he'ena kole takitaha hono tafa'aki ha'ane huu ki Selusalema 'o hoko ki
hono taloni. Sione & Semisi thought of a worldly kind of govt. they
didn't understand 'a e pule'anga 'oku hold out 'a Sisu ki ai. 'A ia ko
e larger context 'o e "give himself as a ransom for many", is from a
political one. That to me is much more effective & richer. Pea ko
'eku fifili ia he me'a 'a Sisu ne ne fai hono ngaahi 'aho faka'osi - I
think he was making a political stand (protest), firstly on Palm
Sunday ko 'ene stand up ki he mafai fakapolitikale 'o Loma, pea hoko
ai ki he'ene veuki e Temipale, a political stand against the religious
establishments for they are robbers! Jesus did something! And from
this larger political context, 'okuou pehee ..... aaaahhh ... ko 'ene
fai e ngaue (ngali fakapolitikale ni), ma'a ku. For me! That makes it
more real, pea hangee 'oku ne faka'ai'ai au ke u loto lahi. He did it
for me ... wow!
Veni, 'oku ou kole fakamolemole atu na'a 'oku hee mama'o mei he
fakatalanoa and this is done with a humble heart knowing better what
Jesus did. Ko e faka'amu pee ke mahino ange hoku ui. Pea 'ikai ngata
ai ka ko e feifeinga pee ke toe ue'i e fekau 'a Sisu na'a 'oku ou
mo'unofoa he tali ki "kolo ko hevani", ka e faka'ofa hono mamani.
seni taniela
--- tv <mani...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Kiate au, things have got too big for a merely
> religious approach,
> focussing on our personal sins. mo'oni e lea 'a e
> the whole division between sacred and secular,
> between church and farm
> and state and whatever, between prayer and work, is
> part of the
> problem.
tv.
me too!! you make my easter!!truly i read your posts
with great delight as you shed lights on things i
never thought of before.!!
back to "separation of church and state"...i have to
clarify/define my terms and position here...
1) when i talk "church"- i mean SUTT/SOT etc as a
religious/political institution...i am not talking
about Christians as individuals within the church
involving in politics. should Christians get involved
in politics--YES 101%....should the faifekau's rally
the church to take sides ??NO!!! manatu'i ne fa'a 'asi
hake 'a e fehu'i a year ago KO FEE ME'A 'OKU TU'U AI E
SIASI blaming the president for hiding!! implying
whether the churchu should support the pro-movement or
monarchy--i'm against that...
2)when i say "separation" i mean political separation
not theological separation--(hangee koena 'i
'olungaa)-also, it does not mean "isolation" --it is
about protecting the church(as an institution) from
the temptation to be caught up in the dirty
"power-play" of politics. eg. 'asi mai 'etau mofisi
hono lolomi mai 'etau lea atu ki he monarchial
authority...etc.
3) when we, Christians and the "church" move into
politics--our strategy should NOT be to IMPOSE(OR
FORCE) but to PROPOSE(fokotu'u atu) our
values/priniciples, faith and worldviews etc.--through
prayerful, humble and persuasive, civil
argument..continually appeal to the power of
reasoning..a peaceful and patient
conversation....never to "force" or faka'ita 'o rally
for change of authority cos thats biblically
debatable--and fatally consequential
4) tongan political problem is so delicate-'e justify
etau lea ki he corruption etc...but it is very
dangerous to talk about CHANGING POLITICAL
AUTHORITY...the church has to differentiate those two
issues cos the bible is clear in one side..the other
is blurred.
what about if the authority rejects our "advice"?
this is the time for the church to shine. the church
is the particular society within the society that
bears institutional witness to the transcendent
purposes of God. we are not to lord our values and
prophetic voices and advices over the state.
4) when Jesus said, Ave me'a 'a sisa kia sisa--"Otua
ki he 'Otua--Jesus acknowledges two realities
1)reality in a fallen world--that copper coin belongs
to sisa--sisa created the coin 2)ultimate reality-God
created sisa-- Ceasar belongs to God...
if (a) belongs to (b) and (b) belongs to (c) then we
can conclude that a is also belongs to c
Jesus acknowledges a bigger picture--His Kingdom is
here but not yet!! we live in a disputed sovereignty
awaiting the day where everything shall bow (including
sisa) and confess the Jesus is Lord(filipai 2) i think
Jesus respected that "barbaric king"--and yet
acknowledg a greater King.
now the tricky question: how are we to give to God
what belongs to God...soul/hearts? the coin is
temporal and soul is eternal--and that is the
political question!! how are we going to merge those
two!!
seni taniela
I think he was making a political stand (protest),
firstly on Palm Sunday ko 'ene stand up ki he mafai
fakapolitikale'o Loma, pea hoko
> ai ki he'ene veuki e Temipale, a political stand
> against the religious
> establishments for they are robbers! Jesus did
> something! And from
> this larger political context, 'okuou pehee .....
> aaaahhh ... ko 'ene
> fai e ngaue (ngali fakapolitikale ni), ma'a ku. For
> me! That makes it
> more real, pea hangee 'oku ne faka'ai'ai au ke u
> loto lahi. He did it
> for me ... wow!
malie tv.
very very interesting observation. i never thought of
that before...quite new for me...good food for
thoughts
now lets probe a bit further...what was he thinking
about the politics of the day....? did he ever think
of toppling ceasar??changing the political structure
and system? just wondering!!
did he really "stand up against"(protest) the politcal
power/authority of the day?? or he merely demonstrated
the "Kingdom is here but not yet"--the transdcendal
truths--pointing the Jews and the Romans to Himself
and FORWARD--to the "thy Kingdom come"
what about in the temple? did he kick out the business
people becaue of a "polical protest" against the
religious authority or was he just trying to separate
the transcendance from being misused for temporal
purposes (business site)--"kuo mou 'ai hoku
falelotu(house of prayer) ko e 'ananga 'oe kau kaiha'a
'akau??
if he was to show us courage...why did not he utter
some words against ceasar!! he did not say anything
against the barbaric romans??why??perhaps he did but
was hidden by those who put together our gospel
accounts??but that will be a very weak argument--i
guess
we have to becareful here about politics--i think i
can agree with you here he fakataha'i e politiki moe
siasi-- these two are tools in the hands of God...
'i he city of God and city of man...there is a good
discussion there perhaps one of the best by st.
augustine...about the connection of the two--their
point of intersection and the contention....
i think we have to be very careful with our "new
discovery of the meaning of salvation" or "new
expression" etc--we should not disqualify what our
forefathers or church fathers has discovered...we can
build on what they laid down--add on or shed more
light etc.. to disqualify them we are in the danger of
starting a "cult"--for eg. we can criticise John
Wesley's theology but we should not disqualify his
theology...we can build on that...why???God uses him
mightily even if he had faulty theology
there is another critical point: "Transcendental
truths own us...we do not own transcendal truths"(i.e
our theology)--so we have to becareful of
disqualifying orthodox theology as if we have discover
something new or new truths about the bible----at the
end of the day...with all our new 21st century
discoveres in theology--I am yet to see a "perfect
church"--and we have not done a better job in dealing
with our problems than the saints who has gone before
us.
anyway bro...thanks for the dialogue--and trust you
have a blessed weekend
'ofa atu
seni moe famili
fusi mapuhoi `a tevolo
talu 'eku "lau mo lau" hifo ee ngaahi "fk kohu" mei he ongo mahina kuo maliu
atu mo 'eku faka-tokanga'i ee me'a ko 'eni,, kuo tau to'o hake ee metotisi
'i NZ moe uniting 'i Aust 'o pehee 'oku na poupouu'i ke ngofua ke fk lakanga
taki(faifekau) e kau mo'ui fk sotoma 'i he siasi... Pea kuo tau afe hifo
'eni ki he TEMO moe fe'auaki ee kau taki ee fonua,, na'a tau/'oku tau 'ilo
kotoa pe ki he palopalema,, 'oku ou malie 'ia hee "huu" mai ee kupu'i lea ko
'eni ko e "hae hifo"(tearing down),, Ne kamata ala mai ee kau tama SUTT ki
he Methodist/Uniting ke fai hono "hae hifo"(tearing down),, pehe ki he
kau "pro demo" moe kau "pro monarch" pea kuo kamata ke nau "tau vahe" pe ko
'enau TEAR DOWN each other...ha ha ha ha,, taau pe 'oku 'ikai ko ha fa'u
ha'a tangata...eh,
Na'a ku faka-ongoongo aU ha pehe mai ha palofita 'i he 'etau kau palofita 'i
Tasilisili ni ketau
"LOTU mo 'AUKAI" mu'a ki he ngaahi palopalema kuo/'oku hoko? kanau toe kau
mo nautolu ia he 'utu penisini mai ke "pii" 'aki ee 'U mata'i afi,, kapau
ko ha 'ulunga anga "fk lotu" pe, pea 'oku toki mo'oni ai ee hua fk-kava
tongaa... ka 'eke atu ki ha taha pe ko e ee me'a lahi ne fai he 'aho ni?
ko e tali... ko e lau lau tohi tapu pe mo tukituki tangai...he he he he!
mahalo kuo taimi keu holomui aa kimui 'o parking pe mei ai,, na'a te fihia
noa ha me'a!
ko e helekosi holo pe 'ena ia... katau toki sio!
malo,,
Mapuhoi 'a Tevolo
>===========
again you defended akilisi(by saying --ko e tangata pee mo ia hangee ko
kitaua!!) i can't say more BUT YOU DID NOT DEFEND E hou'eiki 'O NOMUKA from
tearing down by others!!!lol!!
_________________________________________________________________
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tv
'oku fai .... hahahaha!
'oku lahi e ngaahi me'a 'oku falute mai he potalanoa 'oku fai, but one
thing stood out for me from you; your view of "the kigdom". ko e me'a
eni 'oku ngali 'oku ta kehekehe ai. that doesn't mean to say 'oku ke
hala, kau tonu au, pe 'oku ke tonu kau hala au. it isn't. the roots of
our different opinions can be traced to our different views on what
the kingdom of God really is!
'oku ou tui ko e language 'o e "kingdom yet to arrive" 'oku fihi and
it does confuse alot, least of all, myself. hangee kiate au 'oku imply
this kind of thinking that heaven is a place far away in the sky, that
we will arrive there someday. and on the same vein, 'oku ne hanga 'o
deny that this world, his creation has beauty. ANd dare I say, ko e
haa leva 'eta purpose of living in this world? Ko e sokosoka maka pee
'o talitali?
I think the Old testament is missing from those kind of Bibilical
readings because 'kingdom talks' is very much rooted in what the
prophets say in OT. God, as we know from Genesis intended his world
"kuo lelei", but then a familiar thing happens throughout - Noah & the
flood (the OT language is judgement), taua Pepeli hoko ai (the
language used is judgement). Then God calls Abraham, and declares that
in him all the world will be blessed. The curse of evil at every level
is to be undone. Those Israelite prophets and poets who saw this most
clearly spoke of creation healed, of the wolf and the lamb lying down
together, of swords being beaten into ploughshares, of shrubs and
fruit trees coming up to replace the thorns, thistles, and briars that
had defaced the garden. (Taniela, 'Aisea especially). Ka 'oku hangee
'oku ha'aki kotoa pee ki he Tohi Fakahaa 'a e kingdom talks.
Scripture seems to be trying to say that creation is good, but
incomplete; and that human evil has somehow stalled the project of
creation in its incomplete mode, so that humans need to be put right
and the world itself needs a good shake (Haggai's phrase - give the
heaven & earth one good shake to sort everything out). The biblical
imagery of judgment insists over and over again that God will put the
world to rights and wipe away every tear from every eye. 'Oku mei heni
leva 'a e me'a 'oku ou pehee 'oku tonu ke vakai'i. Because, hangee ko
ia 'oku rooted in the Old Testament, God has been actively involved in
trying to create the world he intends it to be. But off-course ko e
'atamai 'o e kau 'Isileli, is about the way they are governed, because
in their story (Israel's history), 'oku tau lau 'a e exodus, exile,
roman rules, .. etc. in their mind, they are longing for the time they
become the kingdom of the God of Abraham. that would be the time they
become "the kigdom", the super power, the babylons, the rome, the
america of today.
What I am trying to say, ko e fakakaukau 'oe "kingdom yet to come",
isn't helping us now because it feels like we are here talitali pasi
ai pee ki he kingdom ko ia. And we may as well say - what we are doing
now is trying to earned our a place in that kingdom, since it is yet
to come. Ka ko e foki ko ee ki he Old testament, 'oku mei ai 'a e
ngaue 'a e 'Otua right through Israel, to restore his world 'o kamata
he'ene ui 'a 'Epalahame.
"The kigdom", in the New Testament is better understood when we fully
understand the history of israel (revealed in parts by the Old
Testament writings). Something I have not quite managed, but I fully
appreciate. Our vocation here & now (to me) makes more sense when we
undersatnd that the kigdom is something to live out, rather than lean
towards the idea of a "place in the sky yet to arrive". that implies,
a waiting kind of thinking which tempts me to think, that what I may
be doing now is would earn a seat in that place. that leads directly
to what "salvation" means too, and especially where it it rooted in
the Old testament. Judgement (Noah, Babel, exile, back to Zion ....
etc), 'oku na pikinima ma'u pee mo e "salavtion" 'a e 'Otua. And the
Israel sings about it in theor poems & Psalms.
that's the kingdom talks, and I like to pursue it further when we have
time.
But on other things, I have to listen to you, because ko ho fila ia
tautefito ki he leadership. And hope the family are all well.
seni taniela
--- tv <mani...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> 'oku ou tui ko e language 'o e "kingdom yet to
> arrive" 'oku fihi and
> it does confuse alot, least of all, myself. hangee
> kiate au 'oku imply
> this kind of thinking that heaven is a place far
> away in the sky, that
> we will arrive there someday. and on the same vein,
> 'oku ne hanga 'o
> deny that this world, his creation has beauty. ANd
> dare I say, ko e
> haa leva 'eta purpose of living in this world? Ko e
> sokosoka maka pee
> 'o talitali?
=======================================
malo tv.
ko e hoaa moe kau kiti oku nau ui mai ...it's 8pm and
am still at school and i got to run
it seems we have a "great divorce" here in our
theology.
i used the term "the KINGDOM IS HERE BUT NOT
YET"...here BUT NOT YET" that's my position and i have
no time to explain.
it does not mean i am to akaaka maka etc... no I am
encouraged to involve in politics with all gut and try
to change the things i can change and leave what i
can't change humbly with good hope because "the
kingdom is here but not yet"--i have hope!!He is the
one who will right all things.
i used the term "disputed sovereignity" - uhinga oku
kei fai e fetaa'aki i he politiki --koe mafai ki he
mamani oku kei fai e vahevahe pea moe tevolo...pehee
foki pea mo e maamani oku tau 'iai between good and
evil...etc.and God allows that-- . We will never be
able to wipe out evil in our lifetime nor in the
trillion years to come...our only hope is the
consumation of history when Christ appears etc and
every knee shall bow and confess that He is Lord...
to believe that we can transform our world...politics
and the like etc -- from impurity etc.to purity is
utopianism--huxley's "brave new world" and orwell's
1984 have that dream too.
if we follow your "kingdom" definition and work it out
by trying to perfect our world...and politics etc... i
prophecy we will soon see the church becoming an
anarchy
Jesus was never caught up in the power play
politics..should he, he could have easily called his
angels....now if i follow your reasoning--then i will
balem Jesus for not calling his angels and wipe out
evil etc...
i think when we believe "the Kingdom is here but NOT
YET" it gives more meaning to the problem of evil and
explain reality far better and inspires us to work
hard and with hope. it does not encouraged
fakapikopiko and akaaka maka...in US the majority of
Christians who are working hard in politics have the
view that i have....but i guess some goes too far
anyway bye for now --tau toki sio next week
ofa atu
Sitiveni K Faupula
>From: "tv" <mani...@yahoo.co.uk>
>Reply-To: tasil...@googlegroups.com
>To: "Tasilisili-he-ngaluope" <tasil...@googlegroups.com>
>Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Ngaahi 'Aho 'o e Uike Tapu - ko e fifili fo'ou?
>Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 04:19:02 -0700
>ko e talu 'eku tupu mo e manako he 'apitanga pekia. fakamafana ai pee
>hono fakamanatu 'a e "pekia 'a Sisu ma'aku". ka ko ai pee! 'ikai keu
>toe 'ilo 'e au pee koe haa ko aa e me'a 'oku 'uhinga ki ai. ko 'eku
>fifili ki ai he taimi ni 'oku haa mai, koe fo'i fakakaukau ko eni 'o e
>"pekia ma'aku", ko e drive mei he enlightment - ko e mo'ui faka-
>kalisitiane 'oku ne rescue people from the evil world, fakamolemole
>'eku angahala he taimi ni, pea sokosoka maka ai pee 'o tali ki he
>hevani 'oku lau 'e he hiva 'apitanga - " .... 'oku ai ha kolo fungani
>'oku ui ko hevani ..... kuo teu'i ma'a e kakai, te nau tali 'a e
>'eiki ....". tooatu e hiva ia! ko e fakakaukau ia 'oku ngali ha'i ki
>ai 'a e "atonement theology" ne talu 'eku tupu hake mo hono tala he
>ta'u ki he ta'u. and i think it doesn't say much about evil, about
>what's happening in my world. 'oku ou pehee ai 'oku tonu ke faluku mai
>'a e "problem of evil" he taimi pekia ni, he ko e hifo 'a Sisu ki
>Selusalema to deal with all forces of evil 'ai ia ko hono malohi taha
>'o e power of darkness is the cross. That to me 'oku kamata ke tatala
>hifo 'a e 'uhinga 'o e pekia. 'oku hala'ataa keu lava 'e au 'o faka-
>kainga 'a e fo'i "atonement theology" angamaheni neu tupu hake 'o
>fanongo ai mo e me'a 'oku hoko 'i Tonga. cannot! I say it is a little
>too cheap. very passive & ineffective.
-------
tevita, malo 'aupito e vahevahe mai 'a e ngaahi me'a 'oku tau faingata'ia
kotoa pe aai. 'oku tau faingata'ia kotoa pe 'i he fakakaukau na'e fetongi
tu'unga kitautolu 'e kalaisi 'i he kolosi 'aki 'a 'ene fua 'e ia 'a e tautea
'oku taau ke 'a e tangata angahala. kae mahalo ko e me'a 'oku tau fihia lahi
taha ai ko e konga 'o 'etau response ki he ngaue mai 'a e 'otua 'i he kolosi
ke vetekina hotau popula ki he angahala moe houhau ma'oni'oni 'a e 'otua.
we're in the same raft here.
Tuifua, Talanoa
sense? Can you please be more specific with this Quote?
Thanks
Miss Noa
-----Original Message-----
From: tasil...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tasil...@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of seni taniela
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 5:20 PM
To: tasil...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Ngaahi 'Aho 'o e Uike Tapu - ko e fifili
fo'ou?
tv
that's my position and i have no time to explain.
------------
'Ai ena 'oku moluu he taumaiaa teu mamahi'ia au he tuku 'a e hoa! But
look forward ki ha polave 'i fakakaukau koeni. (we may have things in
place by mid-next week) ke tanaki hake ki ai these dialogue ke fai'aki
ha kamata!
But let me me tie things up from my end 'i he faka'osi'osi atu e uike
'oku tau fakamanatu ni.
Mel Gibson'e movie - Passion of the Christ. It shows, apparently, 'a e
mamahi ne foua 'e Sisu he'ene mate. I think the title says alot about
where I have been, in view of this time of the year. The gruelsome
death Jesus endured. But i feel that misplace "the real passion" of
Jesus. Pea koe faka'amu ia 'a fifili ni. His passion was what he had
spent his life speaking about. His passion was his vision about a new
order of life filled with transformed people in a community with God,
free from oppression by the empire and manipulative religious leaders.
When we misplace his passion to be about his death we have missed his
point.
Ko e ngaue 'a e empire, 'e 'ikai tuku ia. It does what it does best -
kill revolutionaries, pea ko Sisu ko e tama mo ia na'e
revolutionarist. 'Oku tau lau he hisitolia 'o e kau 'apositolo ne
tamate'i kinautolu - The empire killed John, Jesus, Paul, James and
many more people .... these guys carried on the life of Jesus and it
was verymuch against ki he mafai 'o honau taimi. Paul persist on Jesus
as Lord as against Sisa as a Lord - an idea seens as fakafepaki (the
meat of the Book of Romans).
Ko e ki'i hisitolia nounou 'o Selusalema - ne 'asi hake ki'i kau
revolutionary AD66 - 70, pea hanga hake 'a Loma 'o haveki 'a
Selusalema kau ai mo e Temipale. Senituli 'e 2 hoko atu ai ne nau
fafanga 'aki e fanga monumanu (hhf) e kau kalisitiane. Ko e me'a pe ia
'a e political dominating systems (empire) do. They kill - 2000 years
after Jesus, 'oku nau kei fai pee - Gandhi, Martin Luther, ne
fakappongi ko e protest against the system of their day. This is what
they do best! They kill those seen as revolutionary.
Ko e "kolosi", ko e tautea mamafa taha ia he taimi 'o Sisu. That
highlights what empires' power is all about. Ko e fa'ahinga tautea ki
he kau kaiha'a 'akau ('oku tau fa'a pehee ko e kau kaiha'a but in the
Greek "kaiha'a 'akau" word translated "bandit" is commonly used for
guerilla fighters or freedom fighters), kau angatu'u ki he mafai pule.
Ko e fakatokanga ki he kau angatu'u - this is what we will do to you
if you oppose the ruling power. We can actually read this from the
Gospels - no king but Sisa! koe kaila ia 'a e kau Siu. And jesus was
very much a good Jew but Jews has to use the worse accusation, that
Jesus is a revolutionary, ka e hanga 'e Loma 'o tautau he kolosi.
Ko e mate 'a Sisu, ko e me'a ia 'oku ui ko e "practice what you
preach". resist evil without violence, he taught about 'oange moe
kou'ahe 'e taha. ko 'ene pekia 'oku ne ako'i au ko hono "pule'anga"
and its course is for me to give my life for. na'e mate 'a Sisu ko
'ene halaia, ko 'ene halaia ko e angatu'u ki he pule'anga mo e mafai
'o hono taimi even if his brand of rebellion is non-violence. Good
Friday & the cross, ko e fepaki ia 'a e "passion of Jesus" moe
dominating system of his time. The empire do what they have to do -
kill.
Jesus practice what he preaches - go to the cross. 'a e kolosi ko e
tamate'i 'anga 'oe kau nagatu'u. It does reminds me of a lot of
christians who take up death, as Jesus did (without calling for his
angels to fight for him) because of the course of his kingdom in the
here & now. He practice what he preached - it is the arrival of a new
kind of kingdom. John & James, asked for fire to come down and wipe
the oppositions, but jesus tried to explain his new kingdom. the one
he brings! the one that we are suppose to live out. My vocation! my
call. all the way, and even face non-violently what the best evil
throows at me!
Ko e sinful nature of the empire (as the gospels tells of every force
of evil gathering in Jerusalem), kills Jesus. But he went up to the
cross because he is passion about what he preach - resist evil non-
violently. Ne tu'u ma'u he me'a na'e tui ki ai mo ne malanga'aki,
neongo ko e fakafepaki ki he ngaahi fu'u ivi 'o e tevolo ne fou mai he
mafai kehekehe. So his victory, is not wiping out the system. but
being able to face the best punishment they could offer - the cross.
The cross is living what he preache.
fusi mapuhoi `a tevolo
konga si'i pe 'oku ou fk 'amu ke 'oua temo tukuange mo Seni... 'a e pehee ke
tuku ee tau tolo pelepela he siasi... Niu mo Seni ko homau siasi ko e ta'u
'eni 'e uofulu ma tolu 'eku kau he fai'anga lotu ni!!! ko e me'a 'oku ou fk
tokanga'i? fo'i ta'u koia 'e 23 ko 'eni!!! fai'anga lotu SIASI UESILIANA
KEHEKEHE 'ENI 'E 4 kuo tupu mei ai... 'osi 'ilo pe 'e Seni he ne a'u mai
'oma ki'i lotu homau ki'i fai'anga lotu!!! taimini kuo toe fonu mai ee fale
lotu kakai fo'ou 'aupito pe ia,,
'Oku 'ikai keu tokanga aU ki he lau mai 'a e kakai 'o pehe ko e ki'i siasi
mapakipaki,, 'Oku ou malie mo ifo 'ia pe au ia he tokanga'i ee misiteli ee
totolo 'a e "LOTU"... Na'e 'iai ee ki'i fo'i tekiniki na'e tuku mai 'e
Loke ki mu'a ko e "FAKA PEEKI" 'oku ou tui mahalo na'a sai mo ia ki he "fk
kake" 'o e LOTU
Ko 'etau pehe "K O E L O T U 'A E 'O T U A K E M E L I N O P
E!...'Ei,'Ei, 'Eii...
"Lotuu 'iO melino"... Siasi feinga'i ke ki'i "FK PEEKI ia" nau ki'i tautolo
"PELEPELA" pea nau ki'i "HOKA"(fuhu),, ko e 'uhi? kae lava ke ngaue ee
lotu,, pea 'Aa 'Aa ai mai moe kakaii... kae 'oua hange 'oku mo ilifia ki he
fanga ki'i me'a pehee...
Kae kehe ko e ki'i kosikosi tapa'i ngatu atu pe 'ena ia,, kae toki fk 'osi
Miu Taungakava,, mahalo 'oku
'iai mo 'ene ma'u kiai,, he na 'e fuhu fk maatoato honau siasi 'o nautolu
ia...he he he he!...'ouuu'A!
Mapuhoi 'a Tevolo
>===========
evil and the power of darkness roams in Tonga, ka ko e hala mo e templates
to victory is to be worked out this week. how to do that? 'oku totonuai ke
tau challenge ourselves with tougher questions, ka e tukutuku atu aa e toki
mafana pee he taimi pekia pea 'osi atu pe easter pea hoko atu e tau tolo
pelepela.
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fusi mapuhoi `a tevolo
'o 'ENE pekiaa,, malo, maloo... Sisu hono tuku mai ee fu'u topiki mamafa ko
'eni kemau "fk kikihi" ai... Masi'i TV kataki pe kau ki'i tokoni atu,, pea
kapau he'ikai teke tali pea ke toe fk foki mai pe!
'oku ifo atu ho'o lakulaku 'Au,, kaa ko hono kovi pe 'oku ke kamata keke
ki'i fuhu 'ITA... tuku ia!
'Oku mahino 'aupito pea toe ongo malohi mai 'a e "HUMBLE" 'a e loto mo
ho'o to e feinga ke
"kake'i" ee PEKIA ke tolonga atu 'i he 'etau mo'ui faka 'aho,, malie,
malie... Kaa 'i he te'eki keu a'u atu au ki he tumutumu 'o e fifili,, kuou
tokanga'i hifo 'e au kuo tu'o 2 ho'o kole fk molemole... kuo HAA?? Ne ke kai
'e ko e ki'i seniti ho'o mou ki'i siasi 'oku toutou kole fk molemole ai? ha
ha ha!
Ki'i me'a 'e tahaa TV!!! hange na'aku kau mai ki he paenga ni,, na'aku
maheni ho hingoa Manini,, faai mai pea ke maliu hake 'o Niumui,,kae tuku
kehe ho hingoa papi 'Ou??? ko 'eni kuou toe tokanga'i hifo kuo ke toe hu
Koe 'o TV...eh,, mahalo naa ko e me'a ia 'oku tau fehu 'ia(???) ai 'ehe
kakai 'a koe mo ho'o ngaahi fifili maliee,, ko e lahi ee ngaahi hingoa 'oku
ngaue 'aki?... Sio mai kia aU! talu 'etau feohi mo 'eku Mapuhoi 'a
Tevolo,, Pea 'oku ou kei Mapu, Mapuhoi mai pe au ai a'u mai ki he 'aho
ni... siOO faingofua eee... he he he he he!
kae kehe!!! 'OFA atu ki hoku kaunga fononga kotoa pe 'i Tasilisili he
ngaluope,
malo,
mapuhoi 'a tevolo
>===========
Veni, 'oku ou kole fakamolemole atu na'a 'oku hee mama'o mei he fakatalanoa
and this is done with a humble heart knowing better what Jesus did. Ko e
faka'amu pee ke mahino ange hoku ui. Pea 'ikai ngata ai ka ko e feifeinga
pee ke toe ue'i e fekau 'a Sisu na'a 'oku ou mo'unofoa he tali ki "kolo ko
hevani", ka e faka'ofa hono mamani.
_________________________________________________________________
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tv
perfect our world...and politics etc... i prophecy we will soon see
the church becoming an anarchy
Jesus was never caught up in the power play politics..should he, he
could have easily called his angels....now if i follow your reasoning--
then i will balem Jesus for not calling his angels and wipe out evil
etc...
i think when we believe "the Kingdom is here but NOT YET" it gives
more meaning to the problem of evil and explain reality far better and
inspires us to work hard and with hope. it does not encouraged
fakapikopiko and akaaka maka...in US the majority of Christians who
are working hard in politics have the view that i have....but i guess
some goes too far
-------
Malo Seni.
'oku tonu ke 'oange ha taimi lelei ki he polave ni. but .....
i hope a deeper reflection on "resurrection", and how the 4 gospels
tells it in their own ways, would have a lot to say about the
"kingdom", tautefito ki he hala ki 'Emeasi. And if have the time, a
historical context of first century Jewish view (& pagans'), of life-
after death would shed a lot of light 'i he kingdom talks. Paul in his
great resurrection chapter (1 corithians 15), ended ".... get on with
your work, for you know that in the Lord it won't go to waste" - quiet
different if he said - let's celebrate the future life that awaits us!
ko e feinga pee ke fakaofiofi atu. moe fakalaulauloto ki he "toetu'u"
tv
tu'o tolu ai leva e kole fakamolemole. fakamolemole atu! pea sai pee
ke tukunoa'i pee ho'o mapuhoi na'a fai ha hee. fakatauange ke ma'u ha
fakamanatu pekia 'oku mapuhoi mai kuo 'ikai ke kei tevolo.
tv
ouau maheni 'oku ngaue'aki. Ka ko ia pe nai? Pea koe haa ko haa hano
faka-kainga ki he ngaahi me'a 'oku hoko pea 'oku ou fekuki mo ia he
'aho ki he 'aho, 'i he feitu'u 'oku ou 'i ai. Mahalo ko e fa'ahinga
fehu'i ia 'oku ne langa 'a e fifili 'oku fai ai e kohikohi ni. " ...
kuo toetu'u 'a e 'Eiki, kuo toetu'u mo'oni ...", ko e haa ko aa hano
fkalea 'oku 'uhinga pea mo mahu'ingamalie? pea 'oku 'i ai nai hanot
toe fakalea? pea 'oku 'aonga fefee? mahalo 'oku 'i ai pee ha ngaahi
matavaivai 'i he ngaahi fehu'i ko eni, pea mahalo na'a 'oku 'ikai
'uhinga. hei'ilo. ka koe ngaahi fifili 'oku ou fie kohikohi ai.
Seni fokotu'u mai - 'ka fai ha muimui 'i he'eku fa'ahinga fakatonulea/
fifili fekau'aki mo e pule'anga 'o e 'Otua ..... i prophecy we will
soon see the church becomming an anarchy'. mahalo ko e me'a ia ne foki
ai e kau akonga ki he'enau ngaahi ngaue maheni (kimu'a he'enau
fetaulaki mo e Sisu), ko e fa'ahinga mindset they have, and stuck
with. Easter provides something abnormal. EP Sanders (the brilliant
New Testament scholar) wrote - " ... the writers were trying to
describe an experience that does not fit a known category ..". ko ek
au hiki kosipeli na'a nau 'osi 'ilo mo maheni mo e ghosts & visions,
but this is something unlike that. Ko e kau hiki kosipeli mo e ngaahi
vahe kimui 'o 'enau ngaahi hiki 'oku 'ikai ko ha'anau news about a
happy ending to good story about Jesus. Ko e hiki eni ia 'o ha kamata
fo'ou.
Matiu 'oku ne hiki - ne kamata 'a Sisu ke malanga, mou fakatomala he
kuo ofi 'a e Pule'anga 'o Hevani (4:17). Ko e kamata eni na'e 'uhinga
ki ai. A new start of new creation. Ko e kamata fo'ou 'o e mo'ui fo'ou
- ko e "pule'anga fo'ou". Ko e anga fe fifili, ki ihe me'a 'oku fai e
piki ki ai 'a e church. hangee 'oku 'ikai ke ne lava 'o toe makupusi
'a e fakakaukau 'o e fo'ou. mahalo ko e me'a ia 'oku lele hake ai e
ngaahi mafana he taimi 'o e faha'i ta'u pekia, pea 'osi atu pee 'otu
'apitanga pea foki ki he "normal". But nothing can be normal after
easter. pea ko e faka'amu ia 'o e fifili. why can we not believe that
easter is the start of a new creation, is the arrival of the kingdom?
is it because we are tight up in thinking we cannot do anything to
some of the things in our world? if this is the case, i think we miss
the point of easter.
ka koe fa'ahinga fakaukau ia 'oku tukuaki'i 'e he ni'ihi nai ko e
"extremism". Ha'aku pehee 'oku hanga 'e he toetu'u 'o 'omai e fu'u ivi
'oku ne mafeia e me'a kotoa. Ko e whole point ia 'o e Easter - ko e
ha'aki mai 'a e fakatupu fo'ou, new creation,new kingdom and its power
to ripple out to every level of communities, ordinary lives, and the
world. 'a e ivi mo mafai ko ia ke ala ki he konga kotoa 'oku 'i ai
ha'ane kau ki he'eku mo'ui. extremism? what can be more extreme than
Jesus comming back from the dead after the world done its worse to
him?
fefe si'i Tonga? taimi ni 'oku feleeleaki e ngaahi fakakaukau ki ha
me'a ke solova 'aki ee mo ee. ngaahi fokotu'u 'oku 'asi faka'aho hake
'a e founga ki hee mo e lelei taha ko ee, pea tonu ke ngaue'aki ee.
liliu e ngaahi me'a lahi he mo'ui 'a e tonga, pea 'oku hake mai e haa
mo e haa. fu'u fihi mo faingata'a? ko e me'a 'oku tau faka'amu kotoa
ki ai ko ha "new creation", but nobody seems to know where to find it.
'Omai 'e he Toetu'u ha tali 'oku ma'ongo'onga mo fakaofo 'oku fakaoli
ki he tokolahi pea faingata'a ke tui ki ai e ni'ihi, a'u pee ki he
siasi kuo 'ikai ke 'ilo pe 'e fefee'i e toetu'u. ko e faka'amu ke toe
lau pee 'a e talanoa 'o e "toetu'u", pea fakangofua ki ai ke ne tatala
mai hono fakaofo.
seni taniela
--- tv <mani...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
But i feel that misplace "the
> real passion" of
> Jesus. His passion was what he had
> spent his life speaking about. His passion was his
> vision about a new
> order of life filled with transformed people in a
> community with God,
> free from oppression by the empire and manipulative
> religious leaders.
> When we misplace his passion to be about his death
> we have missed his
> point.
========================================
hi tv.!!
greetings on this easter morning!! kuo toetu'u ' a e
'Eiki!!kuo toetu'u mo'oni!!trust the "better half"
serves you a breakfast in bed on this new day...anyway
hoko atu pe felingiaki he kaveinga ni
I think Jesus values the "product"( new
> order of life filled with transformed people in a
> community with God) as much as he values the
"process." It seems you deny the process and focus
only only on the "product." true, he has that vision
about the "Kingdom" but it does no minimize the
significance of the process--the road he takes to
accomplish the vision. Jesus relates to us on the
cross on our level...he knows human does not want to
relate to him from a distance...to look at him as only
a "political leader" but also a family man..!!!
My point is this: in order for the Kingdom to be
accomplished-- in order for the community to be formed
and or transformed--lost alienated individuals, as
enemies of God have to be redeemed...you have to
"exist" first(saved) before you are "transformed". He
build his kingdom in the context of relationship. For
us to know that God is our Father. to know that he is
not only Lord but also He is also Saviour. he can
relate to us as a community as much as he can relate
to us as individuals....
Jesus does not come to make bad people good(there are
heaps of good unredeemed people), he comes to make to
make dead people live. Before he gives citizenship,
he gives us
sonship (or both at the same time).
Ko e fakataataa 'o e fakatau'ata'ina 'o Isileli mei
Isipite--1) they were set free from bondage(redeemed)
2) they were given the law(righteousness) 3)there
were shown how to build/keep the tabernacle(worship)
as you pray for the "Kingdom" to be established you
must have the right to say "Our Father" Jesus was not
only a Kingdom builder, he was also a Family Builder.
He invites us to be co-heir...to be a part of a
family. His kingdom is populated by his
"children"--not just distant citizens
It seems you paint Jesus as a "helpless revolutionary"
who fell helplessly into the hands of the
"empire"...But I found a Jesus who was not helpless
but a courageous and loving Jesus who "gave" his life
willingly...not only to show us how to suffer but to
show us that he was willing to take our place...he
suffers the justice of God...the injustice of man.
you focus only on Jeus showing us how to live the
kingdom as "non-violent"... some hindus suffer for
their faith non-violently etc...gandhi suffers for his
belief...my point is this--the cross is more than the
"new meaning" you claim...it includes the "new
meaning" but more!!
The cross reminds me of the holiness, justice of God
etc. it reminds me how ugly sin is...it reminds me of
God great loves for us...etc i think the traditional
meaning is fuller than what you claim...i see a God
whom I can relate to and also a God that I can
worship....he is so close, so human, and yet He is so
"God" and I am not.
He was not only killed, He gave up His life. the
thieves were the helpless victims, Jesus was not. and
he was more than them.
It seems you focus solely on Jesus as a "political"
leader at the expense of Jesus as a Savior.
here is my question: do you think that "vision"(new
order of life filled with transformed people in a
community with God free from oppression by the empire
and manipulative
religious leaders) will be fulfilled in this
life(whether next year or within the next trillion
years)?
do you think there will be a day where every
Christians in the world will be free from the
oppression of the "empire"?
can you define "empire"
got to run
'ofa atu...thanks for wrestling ...and good sharing
with you...happy easter!!
from "us"
tv
hahahaa
my problem with your kind of interpretation is it's tendency to create
"us v. them" mentality, which unltimately is a huge reason kihe
vaakovi mo e tau mo e feke'ike'i. I am all for Jesus, but i am
challenged that the jesus that we have been told (mei he Enlightenment
he koe lenses of this period that most of us have red the Bible with),
is kind of too small. I reckon He is much bigger than that one. and so
the fifili .....
i think the "kingdom" in the New Testament (NT), is to be red with one
view of Israel's life (it's history). And all the kingdom talks in the
NT would make more sense when Israel's history is understood, (and
the Old testament gives us alot of infor, but not all). Paul's, and NT
writers tells of Jesus in view of the story of Israel, and their
relationship with YHWH. Most 1st century Jews didn't think the Exile
was really over. Mo'oni ne nau foki mei Papilone, ka ko e pule 'a e
ngaahi pagan power was still going on - Persia, Greece, Syria pea ko
Loma eni he taimi 'o Sisu. Ko e kalusefai 'o Sisu had already for them
a clear theological as well as a "political" meaning - meant that the
exile was still continuing, that God had not forgiven Israel's sins,
and that pagans were still ruling the world. Ko e kalusefai ko e final
devastation of their hope (of Israel's hope). Ko e me'a eni na'e fai
kia kinautolu 'oku nau fie liukave e mafai pule (revolutionaries). Pea
ne nau 'osi 'ilo mei a Deuteronomy that a crucified person was under
God's curse. So, Jews in this time (Jesus' time), see the cross this
way.
In fact this is where we tend to forget 'a e fa'ahinga Misaia na'e
tali ki ai 'a e kau Siu. Jesus wasn't killed because he was the
messiah. He was killed because he wasn't the messiah they were waiting
for! The Roman saw the potential of a revolutionary, and so agreed to
kill him. What other reasons for it?
kaikehe koe ngaahi fehu'i kehe pe eni ia ke laku atu ai leva ....
whom, and what was Jesus saving us from? I wonder pe na'e palomesi mai
'a Setane te ne tautea kitautolu ki he mate ta'engata? where and when
did satan gave us this promise? I wonder pe koe atonement theology
'oku tatafe hifo mei ai e ngaahi theories 'oku tau nofo ai (ie, you
expound on them Seni), were hugely influence by the fact that at the
time the gospels were written, ne nau feinga'i ke fe'unga e talanoa 'o
e Fuakava Motu'a mo e me'a ne hoko he mo'ui 'a Sisu. I think this is
argued by a lot of historians. But again, we can attribute 'a e
fehokotaki 'a e me'a 'oku hiki 'i he Fuakava Motu'a mo ia kotoa ne
hiki 'o fekau'aki mo e mo'ui 'a Sisu, to himself rather than the
gospel writers because Jesus himself know his Scriptures. Seni, 'oku
tonu pee ke tau stick as much as possible to a Biblical Jesus, rather
than our own humerneutics of what we may think (or been told), Jesus
was. If not, "us v. them" would still create endless violence.
'Oku hangee kiate au 'oku ua e ongo tafa'aki 'o e talanoa ni - ko e
feinga ke pipiki ki he "metaphorical" meaning (may be yours Seni?),
pea mo e tafaka'aki 'e taha ko e langa'i atu 'o e (may be) the literal
history of the event (my side of the talk?). Me'a 'oku ou 'amanaki 'e
fehokotaki ai ko e fakamamafa ke 'i he "meaning" rather than the
details. Unless, kapau ko e 'uhinga 'oku ngali kehekehe ai. And to
point out, why i wonder if Jesus's messege was political, is that by
"political", I don't mean a political party. (ne hala ha fa'ahi fk-
politikale he taimi 'o Sisu). Jesus wanted economic & social justice!
SOme christians has lost hope on fixing this world because they feel
the only hope is in a 'next world'. Why is this? mahalo ko e 'atunga
ia e femou'ekina he argue about the metaphorical or theological
meaning of the event. If i argue ne tamate'i 'e he kau taula'eiki
lotu, pea 'io ki ai 'a Loma ko 'enau ngaahi 'uhinga ne fai e lave ki
ai, I feel it gives us more about the real jesus. he was actively
involved. God actively involved. God is not some supernatural power
pulling the strings from up in the sky which seems like he is paying
some games in the world - ie, earthquakes, tsunami,, war, celebrations
of weddings, nice blue sky ... etc.
kaikehe, meanings over details - if we think that there is a nice
world awaiting us, what the effort now for? too convininet for my
liking. but ..... ko e tu'unga ia e ngaahi fifili kihe easter ni. ka
ko e ngaahi me'a 'oku laku mai 'e he talanoa mei Seni would have to be
addressed in time he 'oku lahi e pu'i.
seni taniela
--- tv <mani...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> my problem with your kind of interpretation is it's
> tendency to create
> "us v. them" mentality, which unltimately is a huge
> reason kihe
> vaakovi mo e tau mo e feke'ike'i. I am all for
> Jesus, but i am
> challenged that the jesus that we have been told
> (mei he Enlightenment
> he koe lenses of this period that most of us have
> red the Bible with),
> is kind of too small. I reckon He is much bigger
> than that one. and so
> the fifili .....
thanks bro
before i answer your questions, let my try to respond
to the "blame" above
1)"us vs. them"--cause the vaavaakovi, tau
feke'ike'i....really???
1)blame Jesus for causing "us vs.them" for he prayed
only for some and not for some and not all (John
17)---blame Jesus for saying that he will go and
prepare a "place"
for some and not for all
--i think it is a false deduction.....eg. cos true
followers of Christ do not force anyone while muslims
faith endorse eliminating their fellow men who do not
believe in Allah...it is a logical outworking of their
faith....what will you say about John wesley who
started methodism....with "us vs them" preventing
england from bloodshed that france had
2)you are denying reality...there is already a "us
vs.them" exists....as long as there is evil exists on
planet earth there will be "us vs them" ..."us vs
them" exists in you and in me,,,like it or not
3) as long as there is something call "truth" exists
on planet earth there will be still "us vs.them" as
long as there is something calls "logic" exists there
will still be "us vs them" I will be glad to see a
world without "us vs. them"...unless you say that
there is no truth
when you talk about the "Kingdom" is everyone be
included in the Kingdom??
4)i think you make a false claim that our
interpretation is influenced by the
enlightenment....you said our interpretation
encourages individualism....guess what... you go to
the other extreme and take side with friedrich
nietzche in his famous book "Zarathustra", huxley
"brave new world- orwell's "1984"--these guys proclaim
"death of God" and "utopianism" a one world where
indidividuality is eliminated--the "community" is
uphold at the expense of the individual...no
individual is allowed to be on his own---the community
is the only one that exists...only a world of
utopianism will have NO "us vs them" and i wish i can
see such world.
Christ value the individuals....and the community...it
does not encouraged individualism...on the other hand,
I have yet to see a community without individualism--
5)you have not answered my previous questions...and i
will not answer your question about "save from what"
cos i and the majority of the tsltsl belive in the
"old view" and you already know it..."what about if
you tell us what Jesus saved us from and to what"
since none of us know it....but that's a question you
never answered
bye for now
seni
--
tv
fifili.
the ignorant of modernism - there is such thing as objective truth!
and why have i got the feeling that your argument is kind of picking
the best from modernism & postmodernism. "truth does exist - modernity
's ignorant; and everyone has a point of view - deconstruction of
postmodernity". i don't think it's purely "community", but i think if
we read the Bible in light of God working in a community - the family
of Israel. When we give that kind of bible reading a chance, it does
open up alot of other possibilities for our church mission.
it's interesting that wesley's theology kind of pop up in the
dialogue. Methodism in progress world has more church buildings closed
every year for lack of numbers than we care to admitt. ko e relevant
'oku mahu'inga, and i think that's where the fifili is gagging for a
space in our "church". wesley came at a time of huge industrial
revolution, and the majority of its follower were from working class
people - can this have something to do with prosperity theology?
people liking the sound of a Jesus that does not care about what they
have? some people has argued so! i have no problem with wesley or the
likes theology(s). i just think we would let those guys down if we
don't see the world we live in as it is. rather than hanging on to
some kind of ..... i don't know. the world we live in, unfortunately
'oku fetuiaki ai e ngaahi me'a kehekehe as a result of huge cultural
waves ... 'a eni 'oku tau fanongo ai mei he shift 'o e modernity ki he
postmodernity .... the patterns of work, economic growth, social and
cultural values are being turned upside down.
but to do so we must know our mission field too, rather than being too
tied up with what we think we know about our product. i think we don't
(the church) know our product as well as we think. it's either that or
we make it look so hard and not something for everyone!
kaikehe, fakaofiofi mai .... na'a too mama'o. i think we ignore
'structural sin' by keep bounding on the importance of individuals.
OK! keep some born again kid in an estate full of drugs & social
problems and what you come up with. that's reality! get some kid in
the remoteness of Ha'apai to accept christ, and I come here and keep
on with my theological studies, and what have i left him to live in? a
very surreal reality. he lives in a community that have major
structural challenges. and so on ......
i prefer to re-read the Bible in light of the narrative of Israel's
life. God working through this community of people. i don't think it
is the starting question to ask if we think we can eliminate all evils
from this world. may be we should start by askig something else. this
question tempt people to jumb onboard with a sense of unrealistic
reality. Jesus, I believe thought so! but he wanted us to focus more
on the kingdom that breaks in when he left the tomb.
tv
theology. ko 'etau fakaukau mo 'etau ako'i e 'Otua and his call on our
lives has an effect on our neighbours. that is a fact. All Christians
are political, whether they recognise it or not, particularly when
they do not recognise it. Lets look at some hereos - Desmond Tutu was
accused of being liberal, Martin Luther had problem with his mariage
and ... those were used as excuses for not listening to their
prophetic voices against structural oppressions.
'oku 'ikai ha fakasiosiokehe mei he 'individuals', but my worries is
that so few of the large evangelical churches with their strong
traditions of "biblical teaching" have anything to say about issues of
corporate responsibility and social justice. This is not through a
lack of resources or energy but because of a theological and political
viewpoint that fails to recognise structural advantage and corporate
greed. It produces a kind of teaching that calls for a response in the
hearts of businessmen and women while having hardly anything to say
about their decisions in the boardroom, exposing the close alignment
conservative theology has with social and political conservatism.
vakai ki he anti-lottery ... ko e siasi kalisitiane lahi 'oku nau
oppose (SUTT?), ka e 'ikai ha tokanga'i ia 'o e banking systems they
invest in, and the ethics those financial institutions stand on. So,
while the connection between sin and personal gambling is strongly
demonstrated, the sin that is inherent in unjust financial systems
goes unnoticed and is tacitly supported. Jesus for the individulas?
what kind of theolgy are we promoting? 'oku tau pipiki nai ki ha
tala-'otua 'okune faka'ai'ai kitautolu Tonga nonga and comfortable
surroundings, ke tau happy happy knwing we are "saved", without it
having one iota of impact on the cars they drive, the clothes they
wear, the jobs they do and the politics they advocate? 'oku ou tui mo
fiefia and proud 'i he lotu na'a te tupu hake ai, mo e fiema'u ke
fakatomala'i e angahala, but do we do this in a holistic way? ko e
konga ia 'oku langa 'e he fifili ni.
It is God's world. too much individualism would ignore the structural
forces that spoils it. vakai ki Tonga .... vevea 'a e 'uu me'alele
maumau. lahi e veve pelesitiki 'oku laku noa'ia, the chemical used in
farming our limited land, the people's health ... aren't we one of the
fattest? what has happened to his creation? do we accused individuals
who make a decisions based on what they are allowed by the economy &
the govt? do we sit comfortably in "idividuaI salvation" and let loose
invisible forces that suffocate his creation and ultimately us humans?
is there an imbalance that we may have ignored in our Tongan
structure? I wonder ....
When I say .... "but not yet", am I am saying to satan - you do
whatever you want with some stuff in this world (God's world) because
Jesus' life, death & ressurection wasn't enough. I have to leave some
things because I cannot? Am I saying that Jesus could not have
defeated some sin? What gospel am I standing for? A gospel that only
have limited power? ...... I still wonder!
seni taniela
--- tv <mani...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> it's interesting that wesley's theology kind of pop
> up in the
> dialogue. Methodism in progress world has more
> church buildings closed
> every year for lack of numbers than we care to
> admitt. ko e relevant
> 'oku mahu'inga, and i think that's where the fifili
> is gagging for a
> space in our "church". wesley came at a time of huge
> industrial
> revolution, and the majority of its follower were
> from working class
> people - can this have something to do with
> prosperity theology?
=====================================
maaan!! you too fast!! can't catch up with you!! so is
the wind of change as we struggle with the planet's
same old problem ---sin Satan etc.
you blame wesley's theology for the decline of
methodism these days??
there is a flaw in that argument--cos you might say
that "church" Paul founded in asia minor--was the
result fault of Paul's theology
you have to realize that in US right now--those
churches who are faithful to wesley have grown and
those who embrace "liberal theology" like those in
England have ran out of business....it does not have
to do with wesley's theology
2) you blame wesley for--"properity theology"--so many
plunderings man!!compare wesley's sermons and theology
with the "pentecostal properity theology" --he made
some impact in the hearts of england....God works
through him--one man--an individual who yielded his
life before God....
so many good thoughts bro!!
seni taniela
--- tv <mani...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> kaikehe, fakaofiofi mai .... na'a too mama'o. i
> think we ignore
> 'structural sin' by keep bounding on the importance
> of individuals.
> OK! keep some born again kid in an estate full of
> drugs & social
> problems and what you come up with. that's reality!
> get some kid in
> the remoteness of Ha'apai to accept christ, and I
> come here and keep
> on with my theological studies, and what have i left
> him to live in? a
> very surreal reality. he lives in a community that
> have major
> structural challenges. and so on ......
very very good thoughts bro!!"structural sin"--very
true....now, is it a product of individuals in a
community who are in bondage to sin or a product of
some unseen forces working in the community--or
what... with the "new approach"--how are you going to
deal with the structural sin....i can tell you the old
way I use --which i think that structural sin exists
in every society
seni taniela
--- tv <mani...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> When I say .... "but not yet", am I am saying to
> satan - you do
> whatever you want with some stuff in this world
> (God's world) because
> Jesus' life, death & ressurection wasn't enough. I
> have to leave some
> things because I cannot? Am I saying that Jesus
> could not have
> defeated some sin? What gospel am I standing for? A
> gospel that only
> have limited power? ...... I still wonder!
>
bro...i admire your passion to get rid of sin and all
etc. i too wish that will happen
did Jesus promise that we will be able to get rid of
all sins and all evils? did he ever promise that we
will be able to right every thing in politics? -- here
are some of the root problems: as we struggle to get
rid of the "structural problem" in our society...have
we ever get rid of the structural sins in our
lives?did he ever promise that all "rulers" will be
converted....because in order for us to get rid of
structural sins have to get rid or convert the
authorities in this world--realistically and
biblically--i guess it might not happen for reason
only God knows...because man will still resist God
till the end of time
your blame is unfounded blundering cos I know of
Christians churches and missions(which you may not
like) who work hard...do some humantarian work --do
their best to transform society but it is out of love
of CHrist and for fellow man--which is the opposite of
the passivity you claim...Jesus never promise that
"structural sins" in the society will be wipe
out....he wants us to preach the good news to the end
of the earth...he wants us to "live out life"....
i think the frustration of this tslsl with all your
quests for answers and your new approach is that --it
is so superficial .... now an old man in niua has to
reread the bible in the new light--i am afraid the
bible will be limited to the "professionals now"
tv. aagain it seem you depart from the orthodox
beliefs but have to question your views...when you are
able to convince us with reasonable answer then we
will join you
so you better answer the questions posted in my
previous epistles
seni taniela
tv.
sorry i did not really understand what you were
preaching about but I guess it is something like this
below...something sounds similar with what you talked
about...let me know...
our professor in economics --Dr Tokarev gave a very
interesting lecture today on the topic below--
“Why is the United States so stinking rich while life
south of its borders sucks?”
dr tokarev answer this question from an institutional
perspective, identifying a common characteristic of
the impoverished nations of Latin America and
searching for its cause.
It is obvious that Spanish/Castilian institutions
transplanted in the New World are less conducive to
growth than the British ones. Thus we should ask
ourselves which aspects of those institutions played
the crucial role. A key element of institutions that
determines economic performance is attitudes.
He focused on the strong institutional constraints on
productive entrepreneurial behavior in today’s Latin
America. Where did those come from? According to our
Bloviator, the answer is quite simple: rent-seeking
attitudes are embedded in the existing social and
political structures. The latter set their own limits,
which are just as powerful as natural constraints.
Tokarev’s hypothesis is that ancient-Roman
growth-retarding attitudes have been transmitted
within pyramidal government structures to the
institutionalized Church of the fourth century. From
there they marched on to the barbarian kingdoms – in
particular to the Visigoths, a process which later
shaped the medieval Habsburg Empire and its colonies
in the New World.
These ancient institutions have led to the evolution
of hierarchical social structures; authoritarian
centralized governments; higher returns to
rent-seeking activities; permanent market distortions;
bureaucratic misallocation of resources; lack of
economic freedom; slow innovation; stagnating
productivity; and ultimately - underdevelopment
Let me know if this is what you were talking about.
hamilto...@paradise.net.nz
..
> i think when we believe "the Kingdom is here but NOT YET"
> Seni
-------
Ko e lea koena ko e hiki ia 'e C H DOOD 'i he'ene tohi 'oku ne fakamatala ai
kio he ngaahi talanoa Fakataata ki he Pule'anga 'o e 'Otua. 'Oku mahu'inga ke
toe vakai 'a e mohenga na'e hiki ai 'ehe tangata ni 'a e lea koena 'i 'olunga
na'a tokoni ki he vahevahe 'oku mo fai.
peace
hausia
tv
I am still trying to figure out the text(s) your take on the kingdom
stands. I find it hard to answer because I am hoping to stick to the
Bibilical "kingdom", for if not, we have seen & hear of some funny end-
times scenarios ....
My proposal of a new light inwhich to re-read the Bible is because
it's like writing on a class window - the church now has passed that
window, and trying to read the writings looking backward into the
window. I suppose if we let ourselves go back to the 1st century and
read the text from there looking forward, that would reveal alot of
things that you seems to brush through.
My suspicions is that, if we talk philosophically I wouldn't have much
to say, but if we explore the Bible (texts) historically and look
forward from there to today, you would find me staying around as long
as it takes!
Sitiveni K Faupula
'e tolu.
1. god's place
2. god's rule
3. god's people
koe taimi ko ee 'oku ma'u ai e ngaahi me'a koeni 'e tolu he taimi pe taha,
'oku ha ai e fotunga totonu 'o e pule'anga.
ko e teke atu pe
sfaupula
_________________________________________________________________
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tv
about the politics of the day....? did he ever think
of toppling ceasar??changing the political structure
and system? just wondering!!
did he really "stand up against"(protest) the politcal
power/authority of the day?? or he merely demonstrated
the "Kingdom is here but not yet"--the transdcendal
truths--pointing the Jews and the Romans to Himself
and FORWARD--to the "thy Kingdom come"
------------
I have gone back to re-read some of the polave. Lahilahi e me'a 'oku
fekolosi'aki 'o kehekehe fklea ka e hange 'oku fepoupouaki, ka e
mahalo 'oku 'ikai fu'u fakatokanga'i because i am not taking time to
listen. vave lomilomi ka e 'ikai ke fakamaau e talanoa. Ka e fai ha
teketeke atu 'i he toe foki ki he tasilisili ko eni.
If we go back to Isaiah & Daniel, 'e 'ata lelei ange ai e tu'unga fk-
politikale 'o e taimi 'o Sisu. Certainly Daniel 7 explain Daniel's
vision of the great beasts comming out .... echo in Revelation. Rome
is the one that threatens to wipe off christianity from the face of
the earth. history tells us this. Daniel also tells us of the "Son of
Man". Judgement, ne u 'osi ki'i paa ki ai in the OT language, falls
upon Israel because time & time again ne nau talangata'a. the exodus,
the exile, the many pagan power that keep taking over. Daniel hints
that this would be the final one! The fourth beast. Rome. a better
read of history explains the position & power of Rome in the then
known world. Jesus, the "Son of Man" takes on this final judgement and
so the signifigance of the cross. But off-course we have watered it
down by abstracting some text(s) from the NT without (may be) looking
at the whole Bible narrative where these NT texts fit in with Israel
as a community that God chose to dwell in.
Jesus & the cross is alot of things. ka 'oka fai ha foki ki he OT (Old
testament) and especially how NT tells of God's renewal of it's
covenant (ie with his chosen family - community - Israel) in a
dramatic way (ie Son of Man & the cross), 'oku tanaki mai leva 'a e
ngaahi naaunau 'o e kolosi 'oku fakahisitolia and it not only help
with our mission today, but also give it more depth.
I cannot articulate yet, if Jesus wanted to change the political
system of his day (the one we are use to and we think off , ie demo,
monarch .. etc), but not only he is fullfilling the vision the
prophets of the OT, he also implemented the kingdom in an extraodinary
way. A kingdom not from this world, but for this world. Now, we need
to figure this out. But I suspect that the cross signifies that Israel
has a new King, and the new kingdom has these new rules to live by,
and the inclusion of the gentiles breaks e ha'i 'a lao mo e religious
establisments. And so this kingdom breaks out to the rest of human
kind. We sometimes neglect to read Paul through his understanding of
the Jews hope. this hope was very much hung on Israel being the
"covenant people", (excuding the gentiles)
'o leva ke fai ha pu'i ka e toki hoko atu.
tv
laine ia.
'oku ou malie'ia he faksio hake 'oku lahilahi e news ki he fu'u
'apitanga pekia lautohitapu toho 'a e kau Metotisi ne toki fai. ko e
fokotu'u fifili ni 'i he 'amanaki, in hope that we give some depth to
our readings of the "Bible". And a disagreement is very healthy ki he
'amanaki ko ia. I don't want to prove any truth. I think truth isn't
an ideal or a statement or a proposition or whatmay.... truth is a
person. So, let's forget trying to prove any truth and keep on the
dialogue! pea tuku keu afe'i mai e talanoa ki he nofo'anga 'o e ngaahi
passage mahu'inga historically.
ko e feinga pe eni ke folofola atu ha fanga ki'i me'a na'a langa ai ha
talanoa. Again, the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D.70 is a crucial
incident. 'oku tokoni 'a hono fakama'u e haveki ko eni 'o Selusalema
moe Temipale ki hono mahino'i 'o e fa'ahinga mindset of 1st century
christians 'i he'ne felave'i mo e "salvation" 'a ia 'oku tau maheni mo
ia 'i he text 'o e New Testament (NT). kau atu ki ai mo e me'a ne hoko
ki he fu'u mafai 'o Loma - its decline. Matiu 10:23, 24;34, ko e ongo
konga 'o e ngaahi text 'i he NT 'oku make sense when seen in relation
to the A.D.70 Jerusalem incident. Paul make more sense within this
framework - Romans 16:20, 1Corinthians 7:29-31, 2 Tesalonaika 2; ...
much of Revelation up to chpt 15, can be interpreted ki he A.D.70
(rather than something in the future). Hangee ne 'osi fai ki'i paa ki
ai 'i 'olunga, ko Daniel 7 is a key text in view of this, and in view
of the arrival of the "kingdom".
mathew 24 is a key chapter. koe ngaahi tekinikale 'o e "coming", in
this key chapter (and its parallel in mark & Luke), 'oku lava pee ke
mahino ai that the destruction of Jerusalem & Temple can be seen as
the primary referent to Jesus 'coming'. moe other references 'oku link
- tangi over Jerusalem, talatuki 'o e fu'ufiki, as eg. So the prophecy
in Mathew 24 of the "end of time" is about this destruction - not some
distant time. So the focus for the four gospels teaching is provided
by this incident, even the great commission - .... i'll be with you
till the end of the age.
If this is add to our readings of the Bible, jesus ministry has a far
more political impact than what we are use to. off-course 'oku lava pe
eni ke disputed, hangee ko ia 'oku ke lave ki ai Seni. But this is
history, and the reality of the world the disciples were in. Ko e me'a
ia 'oku ou pehee ai, we need to remember the Jewish eschatological
hope which were rooted in an expectation for a historical deliverance
from oppression. their "salvation". Jesus on the cross has more
meaning! Ne 'eke 'e Sitiveni Faupula about a richer atonement? Pea ko
e 'new creation' is seen in light of what we are suppose to be after
A.D.70 incidents. The field is left open for us - new creation (post-
eschatological judgement on Rome too), to explore and reinterpret of
how we are to live, and how we are to be "good news" to the world. The
transition in the end of age is signalled by the new covenant in the
Spirit.
tv
prayers & liturgies, ko e stand out theme mei ai - Jesus is risen,
therefore we shall too be raised at last. i don't dispute this, ka ko
e tupu mei he anga e fifili, 'oku 'i ai e me'a 'oku 'ikai te tau fa'a
fakatokanga'i me ihe talanoa easter; the fact that at no point do
either Jesus or anyone else mention the future hope, whether for
heaven, or salvation, or indeed for resurrection itself. All that is
left to be worked out.
Tautefito ki he narrative 'a Sione (kau ai mo e lesoni 'o e uike ni),
'oku i ai ha ngaahi me'a mahu'inga 'oku hulu'i mai 'e he kau hiki
kosiplei fekau'aki mo e one's ultimate destiny;
i) jesus really is alive
ii) pea 'i he'ene pehee, ko ia 'a e "Misaia" - the world's true lord.
(an undersatnding of Caesar's status in jesus's time would help
highlight this point)
iii) therefore God's new creation has begun
iv) therefore 'oku 'i ai hota fatongia/ui ke fai - and a new identity
to do it with.
Pea ke hoko atu ai pee 'i he theme of the early easter messege 'a ia
kapau 'e lau mei a Sione, we shall try and see the first easter
through the 'person' & eyes of 'o Mele Makitala - ko e Sisu toetu'u
'oku mo'ui, therefore ko e mamani kuo kehe (the world is a different
place), pea kuo tau hoko ko e fakamo'oni ki he'ene toetu'u (remember
we are seeing it through Mary's eyes - witness to his resurrection),
ke tau lele 'o tala, 'o fakamatala, make it happen, and remade
ourselves in the process!
We can echo some image from the Old testament, mei he pongipongi ko
eni. feleeleaki 'a Sione & pita, ka e tu'u pee 'a Mele 'o hangee 'oku
si'i tangitangi pee. ne sio ki he ongo 'angelo 'i fonualoto lolotonga
'oku kei 'i he'ene lo'imata'ia. some suggest the image of the two
cherubim overshadowing the mercy-seat in the temple, 'oku feinga 'a
Sione ke paepae mai ki he'ene easter narrative. pea hanga hake 'a Mele
'o sio kia Sisu 'oku tu'u 'o hiki 'e Sione ne pehee 'e Mele ko e
gardener. indeed he is! the image of Adam, only this is the new garder
in the new creation. pea ui mai hono hingoa 'ai ia 'i he Hepelu ko e
'Miriam'. moses sister who sang the triumph song 'i he kolosi he tahi
kulokula hili hono ikuna'i 'e YHWH 'a 'isipite mo e popula. ko e new
moses eni come through the dark sea of death, hanga atu ki he promise
land ...... something of a new kingdom that may be John is alluding
to???
ko e konga malie taha 'a e lea 'a sisu 'oku hoko - don't cling on to
me, because I haven't yet ascended to the Father. But go to my
brothers and say to them, "I am ascending to my Father and your
Father, to my God and your God". 'oku fokotu'u atu ke lolotonga hono
fifili'i 'o e ngaahi 'ata 'oku faka'asi atu 'i he pongipongi 'o e
'uluaki toetu'u, fakakaukau'i ai 'a e anga 'o e hu'u 'a e lea 'a Sisu.
pea 'e fakama'opo'opo ki he'ene farewell discourse - teu 'alu ka e
tuku mai the Spirit. Ka ko e lea 'a Sisu kia Mele Makitala 'oku 'ikai
ko ha'a ne pehee ko 'ene 'alu ki hevani pea te tau join him there.
that would miss the point of the "ascension". ko e 'uhinga 'o e
"ha'ele hake" koe Jesus being elevated to be true lord of the world.
The resurrection has vindicated his claim to be Israel's Messiah; and
Israel's Messiah is the world's rightful Lord, as any bible-reading
Jew could have told you.
ko e fakamatala 'a Mele Makitala ki he kau ako - I have seen the
"lord". kuo mamata ki he hau 'o mamani, ki he tu'i 'o e 'univeesi, ki
he taha 'e tu'ulu tui ki ai 'a pule'anga kotoa. 'oku faka'amu 'a Sione
he'ene hiki e talanoa easter ke ongo mai 'a e me'a ko ia - this is the
true Lord (not Caesar). Ko e parallel confession ia 'i he faka'osinga
'o e vahe 'a Tomasi (lesoni 'o e uike ni) - "my Lord and my God". pea
mei heni 'oku hiki ia to be lord, but he made it clear, ko 'ene
elevate ia ka e hoko mai e Spirit, the one whom the world will be
convicted in terms of sin, righteousness & judgement. Ascension
doesn't mean absence; it means sovereignty, exercised through the
Spirit.
Tuifua, Talanoa
mahino.....
-----Original Message-----
From: tasil...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tasil...@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of tv
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 5:42 PM
To: Tasilisili-he-ngaluope
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Ngaahi 'Aho 'o e Uike Tapu - ko e fifili
fo'ou?
tv
Ko e anga e fakavave hano folofola ha ngaahi tangutu'unga 'o e
tefito'i fakakaukau 'o e "pule'anga" 'o e 'Otua pea mo 'ene felave'i
mo e anga 'etau fai e lotu 'i he lolotonga ni. He ko e fakakaukau 'o e
"pule'anga 'o e 'otua" 'oku ne fakafuo 'a e ngaahi tokateline lahi 'i
he'etau lotu faka-kalisitiane. Pea ko 'eku faka'amu ke to'o e ngaahi
hiki he folofola (texts), 'o hili ki honau taimi pea mo e 'ulungaanga
'o e ngaahi me'a na'e hoko 'i he taimi ko ia ne hiki ai kinautolu
(historical context).
Pe ko hono 'ai 'e taha - ko 'eku 'ahi'ahi fokotu'u ke ta fakafoki
angee kitautolu ki he taimi 'o Sisu 'o lau ai e Tohitapu 'o sio mai
mei ai ki he taimi ni (go back to the 1st century, and read the Bible
looking forwards from then to now). Te ne langa'i mai ha ngaahi me'a
'oku fakatupu fifili - 'uhinga ai 'eku pehee ko e ngaahi faka'uhinga'i
'o e ngaahi me'a ne hoko he taimi 'o Sisu, pea moe ngaahi me'a ne fai
'e Sisu 'oku ki'i too mamama'o he taimi 'e ni'ihi, he 'oku tau
faka'uhinga'i 'e kitautolu ta'e ha 'ilo kihe 'ulungaangaa 'o e taimi
ko ia. Pea ko hono faka'uhinga'i ta'e ha 'ilo ki he hisitolia 'okuki'i
taka fakatu'utamaki.
Pea koe konga lahi e ta'emahino ia heni koe feinga ke fakama'opo'opo e
ngaahi fehu'i mo e ngahi fifili mei a Seni pea mo e ngaahi tefito ne
nau hu'u mei ai. 'Ou feinga ke fai hano fakaanga'i mei he ngaahi me'a
'oku ou pehee ne 'uhinga ki ai e hiki 'o e ngaahi konga lahi he
Tohitapu. Ka 'oku faingata'a kiate au ke quote mai e ngaahi tasilisili
'a Seni he 'oku si'i e taimi. Tuku aa ke ma ki'i ta'emahino atu ai
leva .....
seni taniela
--- tv <mani...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> I am still trying to figure out the text(s) your
> take on the kingdom
> stands. I find it hard to answer because I am hoping
> to stick to the
> Bibilical "kingdom", for if not, we have seen & hear
> of some funny end-
> times scenarios ....
hi tv.
greetings to you on this beautiful friday...been busy
with "family stuff"!could not get back to you! but
thank God it's friday...the 13th!!
i did my best to think through and munching over those
"stakes" you sent...& am interested to continue on
searching...questioning and challenging one
another...we are after "truth"--though you deny
it(propositional truth) except for "the Truth"-a
person...remember once you make such claim you are
exerting a propositional truth--so you can't escape
it...kaikehe tokoua so many good stuff but lets
continue
i like/agree with what you proposed that we need to go
back to the first century and read the scriptures with
first century eyes in order to understand the meaning
of the text. i and millions of bible readers are
guilty of reading our contexts into the texts and have
failed to interpret it the way it intended(God have
mercy!!)...however...it is obvious there are still
some differences between scholars....you named one of
your "gurus" (theologians)--actually, i do have mine
also!! i guess we will be fakakauleka to see who among
our "scholars" are better...but we do listen to them
and their differences etc...and we got frustrated...
but here is a problem that our theological "gurus"
have to becareful about--one will be a bit too
arrogant to say: "this is how Jesus thought"--we have
to becareful here...first, Jesus brain was never
contaminated....yes, he was a Jew but he did not only,
I bet,think Jewish...yes he was with them yet he was
above them..he was in the culture but was not
contaminated with the culture..unless we minimize his
"Godness"...he thought Godly and much much
more...therefore, every theologian are walking in a
holy ground when they venture to say "this is how
Jesus thought"--
some theologians can look at Jesus as a human
only...and if that theologian does not believe in the
"deity" of Christ, culture of the day will determine
his interpretation of what Jesus said...on the other
hand, a person who is committed to believe in the
deity of Christ will interpret the scriptures with
eyes in and above the culture of the day....
this is not to minimize our quest to know what he
meant but again--lets agree there is a great gap
between scholars and they have good reasons to defend
their positions...yours and mine...
another question: do all people have to think 1st
century Jewish to understand the truths of the bible
etc.??can a man from Fonoi do such etc.??i used to
think(when i was a kid) that Isreal is in heaven and
not on planet earth --that's why i got lost in reading
of the bible..
a Jewish rabbi spoke here last night...his opening
comments "the bible is not for the Jews only, it is
for the human race...for the world etc..." this Rabbi
does not believe that Jesus is the Messiah because if
it was true then there could have been a "great
peace"--since He is the prince of peace...etc
He believes that Jesus was a great rabbi and (like
your previous proposition) he had some political
agenda against Ceasar unfortunately he failed....the
rabbi believes that we should work for the kingdom of
God to be established in this life on planet earth....
now the question is "why did not Jesus prove to the
Jews that He was the messiah by bringing a great peace
to Israel?" after all he knew in the Jewish context
the messiah should bring peace? it is difficult to
argue from silence by saying that he was against
ceasar--i think he was against sin--satan etc but to
topple a political leader is not in his
priority....the point is this--if the Jewish mindset
will deternmine our interpretation then I can contend
that Jesus failed miserably to clarify to the Jews who
he was...a new problem will arise: Did he ever think
Jewishly/rabbishly??or something more!!
have to end here....but you sound "rabbi-ish!bro!"
hah!anyway at the end of the rabbi's talk, our
president stated something you stated before..."many
of us evagelicals forget our responsibility on planet
earth" etc. so bro...!! you are right but still i
have some more questions to ask....thanks for the
search!! keep on!!but do not cling too hard to those
scholars...give one hand to that motu'a malanga i
felemea...one hand to J wesley and wrestle..and one
hand to scholars......we might find that we will be
read the bible with our own eyes here and now(lol!!).
tv
his divinity is questionable from all that i have said? I think from
what you are saying it deny that he was fully human too. I had assumed
that we agree on Jesus being both fully human & fully divine -
equally. Are you trying to elavate one over the other? That isn't the
Jesus we are told, isn't it? if he was fully human too, why are we not
exploring that more? Why have i got the feeling that you neglect the
exploration of his humanness? But again i may have red you completely
wrong.
I am not sure if i had blamed Wesley's theology or any other. I
proposed some facts around the time he appeared on the scene of the
ministry, then I suggested that I feel we would let him & other
pillars of christianity down if we loose the relevancy of the gospels.
That means, to me, we should allow ourselves to re-interpret the Bible
to the life of the community(s) we are in!
I think it is a cheap shot saying that a man from Felemea would not be
able to hear this. How else they hear & read the gospel? people taking
it to them. why don't we gear those gospel takers to expand their/our
intellect? It sounds like intellect (biblically) is being drowned in
fear of ... fear of what? what are we scared of? I am reminded of
Martin Kähler: the true Christ is a Christ of faith detached from the
Jesus of history. 'ilonga tama ho'o 'osi hiki 'a koe 'o nofo muli ee -
ko e kakai 'o e ngaahi kolo ni ko 'enau mo'ui e "lotu", lau 'enau
folofola, fai e ngaahi fatongia ki he siasi ... etc. they are dying to
have more of the gospels. ka e hange e 'oku ta manavahee ke talanoa'i
e ngaahi me'a 'e ni'ihi. but problems aren't scared to arrive in
Tonga? So how would wesley be taking the gospel to tonga? not on horse
back, would he? let's figure it out, just like the first easter, may
be?
bro, i think you are more jew because it sounds like you are still
waiting for the kingdom. just like the rabbi! easter makes sense when
the jewish mindset of "apocalyptic" in the first century is
understood! - it isn't the same as "end-of-the-world". I don't think
he had time to speak on that, did he? "
"Apocalyptic is the symbolic and richly-charged language of protest,
affirming that God's kingdom will come on earth as it is in heaven-not
in some imagined heavenly realm to be created after the present world
has been destroyed. In particular, apocalyptic is the language of
revolution: not that YHWH will destroy the world, but that he will act
dramatically within it to bring Israel's long night of suffering to an
end, to usher in the new day in which peace and justice will reign".
Easter, again gives us more (me especially), 'i hano tanaki atu e
ngaahi felefele 'o e hisitolia. truth i suggested (said) is a person!
Someone said - i am the way, the TRUTH, and the life. I think you know
what I mean. just let the bible be itself without thinking
philosophically too much. a re-read of the time when Jesus was infront
of Pilate would be nice regarding this "truth" search. this was only
last week! but overall, i am not sure how you take it, but for me,
when Jesus says he is the truth, I take it, it's a person!
i think this getting far beyond the scope 'o e tasilisili (mahalo?). i
need to slow down for another 40 days, and wait to get some fire, huh?
seni taniela
--- tv <mani...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
truth i suggested
> (said) is a person!
> Someone said - i am the way, the TRUTH, and the
> life. I think you know
> what I mean. just let the bible be itself without
> thinking
> philosophically too much. a re-read of the time when
> Jesus was infront
> of Pilate would be nice regarding this "truth"
> search. this was only
> last week! but overall, i am not sure how you take
> it, but for me,
> when Jesus says he is the truth, I take it, it's a
> person!
============================
amen bro!!
good thoughts!!... and totally agree with you that
Truth is a Person--Jesus i. e...in guess everyone
knows that..but i was against your denying
propositional truths as if you are spiritualising
reality we can't escape it...!!
fktonutonu mai pe fakamahino mai--you told us to wear
Jewish eyes...Jewish contexts, culture in order to
understand Jesus etc--agree?? where do we arrive??
none other than to say that Jesus is not the
Messiah......you also told us in a previous posts to
"ask a Jew"--etc. and thank God this rabbi came last
night and I asked after he spoke and that's what I
got...do i have to be a Jew in order to understand
Jesus--majority of Jews still deny Jesus..try share
the Gospel with a Jew and see how special they
are....perhaps you mean that we wear only Jesus Jewish
eyes--then we have a great "contention" there--because
I still believe as mentioned before we can interpret
Jesus view differently(your scholars and mine)...
...ne talamai he laapai Siu ka 'ikai pe te nau sio ki
he melino 'a mamani kotoa--then the messiah is not yet
coming(that's a good argument)...is that the Jewish
eyes you want us to wear???
now!! since you believe the Kingdom is here only...can
we ever reach such a state where the world will be at
peace?? you mobilize us to wear Jewish eyes.. for
what??--so we can deny Christ again...guess what
......during the easter weekend, a Harvard and a
princeton scholar talked about the need to go back to
"the context" etc and guess what--they tore down
Christ of the easter...
i wonder why "some scholars" of the west go to isreal
and wear jewish eyes and claim to have understood
Christ more than the Jews who own Jewish eyes and
still don't understand Jesus...(mind you--you have
your scholars i have mine who also read Christ
differently)--the point is: as you usher us to go back
to Israel, that does not guarantee that we will
interpret Him better...for the Jews were there and
they did not understand Him...even if we go back there
we will still argue over him....and scholars still
debate their understanding of Him even they all "went
back" as you want us to ...we can go back and might
see a Jesus that has never been there.
I can argue that even someone at Fonoi who know
nothinng about Israel can read the bible and know God
more than anyone of us who come back with those load
of theological degrees etc. this is not to support
intellectual laziness but it is to avoid "theological
extremists", intellectual pride etc. or reserving the
bible as a book of the "elite"--one person said "it is
shallow enough for a child to take a swim in it and
yet deep enough to drown the theological elites.
now i have no room to go to the texts because we will
go nowhere....but here are some of the reasons I am
skeptical with someone who comes with something a bit
radical as if the "truth" was hidden for thousand of
years....fiha'i saisi fo'ou(cults) eni mo enau ha'u o
faka'ikai'i e mainline churches/doctrines and they end
up the same --kei fe'auaki, corrupt and do no
better...etc--
right now the "emergent church" is challenging what we
use to believe...and it seems some of your positions
sound like them...
....you said that evagngelicals just stay and tali
'alu ki langi etc..that's a mistake there...here in US
evagelical involve in politics, and tackling social
problems, in mission etc...evangelical get involved in
life....mahalo te tau fe'au'auhi heni pe kohai 'oku
ngaue lahiange he maamaani etc...
have to be aware that there are are "paradoxes" in the
Scriptures we need to wed them together...yes He is
here Mt 28:18-20..closer to us than we think(yet He is
so far and transcend us as we may never
imagined)...His Kingdom is here...once He rule a
heart...his Kingship is extended and excercised...but
still He is not here in His glory but we believe He
will come again as King with angels etc.......and
every knee shall bow and tongeues confess that He is
lord...do you believe that? if you and your colleagues
don't believe then we have to take out e himi 497 etc
moe u himi lahi faufaua and declare our forefathers
were so blind...and I am so afraid!!
Sitiveni K Faupula
>From: "tv" <mani...@yahoo.co.uk>
>Reply-To: tasil...@googlegroups.com
>To: "Tasilisili-he-ngaluope" <tasil...@googlegroups.com>
>Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Ngaahi 'Aho 'o e Uike Tapu - ko e fifili fo'ou?
>Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 15:30:57 -0700
>
>"Apocalyptic is the symbolic and richly-charged language of protest,
>affirming that God's kingdom will come on earth as it is in heaven-not
>in some imagined heavenly realm to be created after the present world
>has been destroyed. In particular, apocalyptic is the language of
>revolution: not that YHWH will destroy the world, but that he will act
>dramatically within it to bring Israel's long night of suffering to an
>end, to usher in the new day in which peace and justice will reign".
--------
malo tevita mo seni e ngaahi fkmatala. koe teke atu pe eni. neongo kuo hoko
mai e pule'anga 'ia sisu - pea 'oku kau ki he pule'anga e si'i kakai kuo
falala e mo'ui ki he kalaisi - 'oku ou tui 'oku tau nofo tatali ki hono
fkma'opo'opo e me'a kotoa 'i he kaha'u.
ko e fklea 'e he 'angelo 'e toe foki mai 'a kalaisi, 'oku ne 'omi e 'imisi
moe fkkaukau 'oku 'i ai e me'a 'oku toe ke hoko he kaha'u.
fkmolemole na kuo te ofo pe 'o lea he kaveinga hala.
sfaupula
_________________________________________________________________
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tv
eyes you want us to wear?
not quite! neu ki'i lave ki he talanoa fk-taataa 'o e kau tauhi ngoue
ne fai 'e Sisu he uike tapu. now, if we do not understand what was
actually happening in Jewish history (talanoa 'o 'Isileli), alot of
the parables goes over our heads. 'Ikai ngata ai, I think it isn't a
bad thing to wear Jewish eyes but not side with their theology. the
difference is, we would shout crucify Jesus if we are what you said I
had proposed we do. but understanding their theology, requires knowing
the history. The Bible is actually written from these guys life story
(the story of Israel).
I think wearing "Jewish eyes" is alittle too much of an accusation. I
think you forget I am proposing to stay on what's in the Bible. I
think our Jewish brothers put their culture/history up and drag the
Scripture to fit in with it. And when their "eschatological hope" -
the one the Rabbi is saying - (no peace on earth) doesn't materialise,
Jesus becomes another prophet, and so they still wait ..... But I am
thinking more of what the Scriptures says, and then transform our
theology accordingly. Now, if we go back to Genesis and start reading
from then on to Revelation, we would find that God has something
special fulfilled in Jesus. I think the Bible has alot of metaphors,
and left alot of things for us to work out. So, I hope we keep trying
to work it out ..
have to run
seni taniela
--- tv <mani...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
I think the Bible has
> alot of metaphors,
> and left alot of things for us to work out. So, I
> hope we keep trying
> to work it out ..
================================================
sorry bro!!
if i came harsh on you...and have missed the point of
the conversation and made some malicious and sarcastic
comments...i'm just arrogant!!oh God help me
but let me share with you why I am a bit reactive to
your position.
actually, you said lots of good stuff...and i wish our
tslsl will take that to heart...but some of the
theological issues need to be approached(i think) not
with an "either... or..." approach but with a "both
...and..." approach.
one of my favorite authors is N.T Wright( Bishop or
Durham England-he alrady lectured in Harvard and
Oxford before). we're using one of his books where he
debates with Marcus Borg of Jesus Seminar about Jesus.
Pea 'oku defend e Wrigth a e tu'unga 'Otua 'o Sisu.
Actually, Wright's position about the Kingdom of God
is more like yours. Wrigth was here last year and I
went to one of his lectures--have great respect to
this man of God ....My NT teacher was educated in St
Andrew(i think in Scotland)...but he is against
Wright's position about the Kingdom...and yet he wants
us to read NT Wright's writings.
Alister McGrath ...who is teaching historical theology
Oxford Uni. came and I went to one of his lectures on
the Twilight of Atheism...he is somehow abit
different...on the first week of this month Father J.
Neuhaus(a Catholic priest and scholar)--he was listed
in the Time Magazine as one of the top 25 most
influential Christians in America and has good stuff
in politics...he talked about "the Kingdom is here but
not yet"....and last week , a theologian from Harvard
and another Princeton discussed the easter and claim
the historical contexts etc and they tore down Jesus!!
how can I as a listener from Tonga put them together??
I will go nuts if I try to understand them all...yet
I have to pick up one...or marry them all...
Now, here is how i try to marry these guys...I think
of where I come from...there are "kau teolosia
fakaenatula" 'i motu...all they got is their bible...I
have great respect for them..of my uncle who was known
as a great preacher in my island...as a dieharded
Methodist, I am fond of Wesley's theology and
style...I have to marry the "new discoveries" with the
"Past" with my forefathers" traditions... etc. so it
is not an "either or" approach but "all/Both... and.."
approach and of course I have my personal biases"
your approach sounds a bit radical and sounds like a
total departure from "traditions"--and I am very
skeptical of anyone of us who go and study overseas
then we go back to tonga and said "this is the way--"
etc...better(i think) if it is a "rediscovery of
something we neglected" etc..and if i know something
ngali 'oku fo'ou I have to try my best to bridge it
with what is already found/perhaps there is nothing
new.. .otherwise I have to be ready to defend every
questions....
so sorry t.v.... actually i save your posts...i like
them and honestly i learnt many good things from
them...things i never thought of..though I may not
agree with all...
trust you have a weekend...pea tuku e ilifia he
"better half"--tafulu'i 'e ia koe -haupapa 'e koe
mautolu!!
'ofa atu kia kimoutolu kaungaa fononga he
tsltsl...malo Loke hono tutu mai e maama o e lesoni e
uike ke refresh atu ki ai hotau kaungaa
fonongaa..kaataaki'i pee maua he ko Uiha pe mo nomuka
ne fiu feinga'i ke convert he hake mai e lotu
'e toho e salotee hee!! ke fai hano saupulu!!
trust we all continue guarding our time with God
daily...
God bless --ni sa moce!!
sen
tv
'truth'. fokotu'u atu ke na luelue fakataha mu'a moe "immanence" -
God's closeness & involvement in reality. he 'oku tokoni ki hono faka-
palanisi 'o e ngaahi fatu fakaukau lahi he ka 'ikai palanisi 'oku ne
faka'ai'ai e palopalema ki he'etau teolosia - Olson suggested ' ...an
overemphasis on transcendence can lead to a theology that is
irrelevant to the cultural context in which it seeks to speak, whereas
an overemphasis on immanence can produce a theology held captive to a
specific culture ..', pea 'oku ou tui 'oku huhuukia 'a e tepile ni 'i
he unbalance.
neu malie'ia he pepa ne present fekua'aki mo e church mission pea koe
taumu'a - "a progressively better gospel", based on Acts 13&14. Ko
Paula & Paanepasa 'i hono commissioned 'e he Siasi 'Anitioke ke na
malanga'i e 'kosipeli' ki he; i) kau practicing Jews and God-fearing
Gentiles; ii)t to Gentiles who had little or no connection at all to
Judaism. two different audiences (background) ke 'ave ki ai e
kosipeli. (ko e lea ko e 'kerygma' - toki fakasio ha faingamalie), ka
ko ia 'a e lea ki hono vahevahe 'o e ngaahi 'ata 'o e 'kosipeli'.
hangee ko e taimi 'o e kau Siu & god-fearing Gentiles, ne na ngaue'aki
'a e 'updated Old testament kerygma'. pea ki he kau Senitaile,
hala'ataa ha 'ilo 'otua, ne na ngaue'aki 'a e super-basic version of
the gospel (turn from your worthless gods to the living God, the
Creator who shows His care for you in his many providences and...).
'oku hanga 'e he fokotu'u ko eni 'oku faka'ataa mai ha sio kihe anga e
'kosipeli' 'i he maama 'o e ngaue ko eni 'a Paula & Paanepasa. 'oku
'iai e context 'oku fiema'u ia ko e presentation 'oku mahu'inga, pea
'oku 'ia ai e faingamalie moe feitu'u ko e bare essential pee 'oe
kosipeli 'oku fiema'u ki ai ..... i think you see what this means. ko
e me'a leva 'oku hoko ko e fa'ahinga dynamics 'e taha 'oku 'asi mai 'i
he misiona - ko hano toe 'oatu mo ha loo-ua pe toe loo-lahi ange ke
fakakakano mo fakaloloto e intial proclamation. 'oku lau 'a paula ki
he "good deposit" (2 Tim 1:14), pea mahalo koe 'uhinga ke take root 'a
e good deposit ko eni 'oku pau leva ke toe ta'ota'o atu 'a e ngaahi
'supplementary secondary material'. 'oku kehe pe ia mei he pehee 'oku
'ikai efficient enough e kosiplei (slide-backs come to mind). ko e
me'a eni mahalo 'oku 'uhinga ki ai 'a e " ... encouraging them to
remain true to the faith" (Ngaue 14:22). He 'oku 'ia ai e reality 'o e
mo'ui 'a e muimui 'ia kalaisi - We must go through many hardships to
enter the kingdom of God". - Ngaue 14:22
'Ai ia ko e mahinokiate au, 'oku 'i ai e ngaahi layer
faka-felave'i ki ha misiona 'a e Siasi 'i Tonga? 'oku ngali leva taa
'oku 'i ai 'a e ngaahi layer 'o e kosipeli pea ngali 'oku 'i ai ha
broader pool of the gospels, pea ngau'eki leva 'a e certain aspect of
gospels to certain audience. ko 'eku fakakaukau atu 'oku 'i fee 'a e
motu'a Fonoi, pea ko e haa e aspects of the gospel does he needs in
order to take root considering where he is. ko e fee 'a e tamasi'i
deport atu mei muli pea moe aspect of the gospel he needs ... etc..
'oku tau fa'a fakamamafa kihe tutupu 'a e mo'ui fakalaumalie 'a ha
taha, ka e fefee ke hiki ange 'o 'ai mo e fakakaukau ko ia 'i he
fa'ahinga layer 'o e kosipeli fe'unga mo e fiema'u 'a e taha ko ia ka
e deepened his faith in Christ. I am reminded of this famous story of
the son telling his father - 'Father, that man [the preacher] is
saying all the right things but he isn't saying them to anybody. He
doesn't know where I am, and it would never occur to him to ask!'
'oku hangee kiate au 'oku 'i ai e me'a ke tau fakatokanga'i 'i hono
develop 'o e 'good deposit', 'a i a ko e point people to Jesus. pea
hokohoko atu ai 'a e faka'ai'ai ki ha kosipeli 'oku ne challenge
kinautolu ke toe loloto ange 'enau mo'ui. he 'oku tonu ke kamata 'a e
fakaafe (tanaki atu mo e fifili ki he 'belonging before believeing'
perspective), pea fononga ai ki hano mahino'i of what it really means
to live for him - ko e hu ki h epule'anga kuo pau ke fou he mamahi
(Acts 14). the 'good news' gets even better.
ko e ngahi fepoopooaki'aki he tepile ni (tautefito ki au mo Seni), ko
e feinga ia ke ta'ota'o atu kihe 'good deposit', yet remain 'true to
the faith'. even if it comes across as radical, i hope the Spirit
guides us still. ko e challenge ki he version of the tongan
christianity is enormous, and may be it needs something that looks
radical. and so i have no fear he ko e 'amanaki ke developed the
gospel, the good news to still be the good news, ka e 'oua 'e hoko ke
fakakavenga moe fakatupu moveuveu.
ka koe ngaahi fakakaukau ia 'oku teetee holo he anga fifili ni.
Tuifua, Talanoa
Quote "Pe mo Nomuka ne fiu feinga'i ke hake mai e Lotu".....'oua 'e lea
ki motu he koe kolo 'Eiki ia ......'ai pe koe, he 'oku mo'oni 'a e lau
'a kau papalangi 'o e 'Ikale....'oku ke HARD HEAD.....
-----Original Message-----
From: tasil...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tasil...@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of seni taniela
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 8:31 AM
To: tasil...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Ngaahi 'Aho 'o e Uike Tapu - ko e fifili
fo'ou?
tv
the conversation and made some malicious and sarcastic
comments...i'm just arrogant!!oh God help me
greetings
ngaahi mahina toki maliu atu ne fai e ngaahi konifelenisi lalahi 'a e
kau taki homau siasi fk-fonua ('Ingi), ko e feinga ha founga ke
fakatuotuai ai 'ene mapakipaki. ko e paapaa 'a e siasi 'oku 'uhinga
lahi he "homosexual" issue. ko e comment 'a e taki , Archbishop of
Canterbury -Rowan Williams, (one of my fav theologians), that i like
the most pea 'oku ou manatu'i amongst others - "the church should be a
safe place for anyone, even those that call themselves
"homosexuals" ...". bro, pe 'oku emergent, radicals, ... what come may
'a e views, opinions, and theology, i kind of agree 'oku tonu ke hoko
e Siasi ko e 'safe place' for all. ko e vave ki he lele 'a e toto 'o
mafana and raise our voices in our reactions 'oku tau manatu ai ki he
crusaders, a period in christian history we would rather forget.
pea 'ikai ngata ai, vakai hake kihe tepile 'e taha 'oku kamata'aki pee
mo e high temperature o'e "ve'e 'alu". i just think at times 'oku ki'i
faingata'a e dialogue because we either scared of being rude or being
told off. and some of the responses doesn't encourage 'a e healthy
disagreement. vave pee ki he hot language. anyways ....
'oku toki fakamanatu mai 'e he hoa e paloveapi tonga - "motu ka na'e
navei", and she went on to say about us tongans. though some of our
traditions, cultural values are starting to show signs of cracks, and
even some are broken, yet there are also some wonderful traditions
that still bounds us, our tongan, and our identity. And one of them is
how we value christianity. but the papers on Acts 13 & 14 about "a
progressively better gospel" kind of nudge me tautefito ki he
fakakaukau atu ki Tonga. Do they need the super-basic version of the
gospel still? the one Paul & Barnabas had to use at times! or do we
need a progressively more challenging aspect of the good news? ki'i
fuoloa e ta'e fanongo ha malanga 'i ha falellotu tonga, and may be
things are OK. but when you read on the news about the current events,
you do wonder! kaikehe ...
'oku ou pehee 'oku tau kei kehekehe 'i he perspective of the kingdom.
you are right - i lean towards NT Wright, ka ko moua (Seni &
SFaupula), 'oku mo lean towards "here, but not yet". Does it matter
'oku kehekehe? It does matter in the way we may go about doing our own
missions. But do we have the same audiences? 'Oku ou tui ko e me'a ia
ke tau fefakalotolahi'aki ai mo tau fiemalie ai; he ko moua 'oku
mahalo 'oku send mo ua to those who needs the "complicated version of
the gospels", and I am to those who only needs a super-basic aspect of
the gospel.
but hope this is only dialogue in a 'safe place' ka e 'ikai ke hoko ko
ha me'a ke tau nofo ai 'o fakamaau. 'ofa mo faka'apa'apa brother
Sitiveni K Faupula
>Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Ngaahi 'Aho 'o e Uike Tapu - ko e fifili fo'ou?
>
>'oku ou pehee 'oku tau kei kehekehe 'i he perspective of the kingdom.
>you are right - i lean towards NT Wright, ka ko moua (Seni &
>SFaupula), 'oku mo lean towards "here, but not yet". Does it matter
>'oku kehekehe? It does matter in the way we may go about doing our own
>missions. But do we have the same audiences? 'Oku ou tui ko e me'a ia
>ke tau fefakalotolahi'aki ai mo tau fiemalie ai; he ko moua 'oku
>mahalo 'oku send mo ua to those who needs the "complicated version of
>the gospels", and I am to those who only needs a super-basic aspect of
>the gospel.
hi tevita, 'oku fkmafana 'aupito e supiesi 'oku mo lavelave ai mo seni.
mahalo pe 'oku ou tatau mo seni pea mahalo pe 'oku ou tatau mo koe. 'oku ou
tui 'oku 'iai pe mo e third position 'i he fkkaukau ki he pule'anga.
ko e anga eni e fkkaukau 'oku ou sio ki ai.
ko e pule'anga kuo hoko mai, ka 'oku tatali si'i atu 'a 'etau a'usia kakato
hono ngaahi naaunau. mahalo ko e me'a eni 'oku ui ko e paradox (ko e
fefusiaki 'a ha ongo me'a 'e ua 'oku mo'oni). 'oku fkmo'oni pe 'a e folofola
ki he ongo me'a ni fktouloua, he kuo hoko mai 'a e pule'anga 'ia kalaisi
(mk.1:15; lk.11:17-22; 17:21), pea 'oku tu'u tatali e hisitolia 'o mamani ki
he 'aho 'e toe ha'ele mai ai ke fkkakato e hisitoloia 'o mamani mo fokotu'u
ha selusalema fo'ou (mt.24:26-31; mk.13:24-27; fkha.21).
'e tokoni 'aupito 'o kapau te tau fkkaukau ki he pule'anga 'o e 'otua 'i he
ngaahi me'a ko eni 'e tolu, he 'e toki mahu'inga malie ai 'a e 'ulungaanga
'o e fkkaukau ki he "now, and not yet."
ko e pule'anga 'o e 'otua ko e:
1. feitu'u 'oku 'afio ai 'a e 'otua mo hono kakai
2. pule 'a e 'otua ke fk-ongoongo ki ia 'a hono kakai
3. kakai 'a e 'otua ke fkongoongo ki he 'otua
kapau te tau vakai ki he hisitolia 'o mamani, 'a ia ko ee 'oku tau ala ma'u
meihe tohitapu, 'oku kamata 'a mamani mo e pule'anga 'o e 'otua. 'a ia ko e
1) feitu'u 'oku 'afio ai e 'otua mo hono kakai, 2) 'oku pule ai e 'otua 'i
hono kakai, 3) moe kakai 'a e 'otua 'oku fkongoongo ki he 'otua. sai, ko e
me'a na'e hoko hifo ai ko e to 'a e tangata. pea 'i he hoko 'a e me'a ni
na'e veuki ai e palanisi 'e ngaahi me'a ko eni 'e tolu.
na'e 'ikai ke kei 'afio e 'otua fktaha mo hono kakai ha feitu'u pe taha, pea
'ikai ke toe tali 'e he tangata ke hoko ko e kakai 'a e 'otua, pea kuo 'ikai
ke kei fkongoongo 'a e tangata ki he pule 'a e 'otua.
ke fknounou, ko e talanoa meia senesi 12 kia malakai, ko e talanoa 'o e
ngaue 'a e 'otua ke fkfoki 'a hono kakai ki ha feitu'u 'oku ha ai e ngaahi
me'a ko eni 'e tolu. 'a ia na'a ne ngaohi kinautolu ki ha fu'u kakai, pe
pule'anga. pea foaki kiate kinautolu mo 'ene lao (means whereby god's rule
can guide peoples relationship with god), pea feohi mo kinautolu 'i ha potu
'e taha (promised land).
'oku tau 'ilo kotoa pe na'e 'ikai malava 'e he tangata, 'i hono anga
talangata'a 'o a'usia e pule'anga 'o e 'otua - in either israel's history,
or the present age. na'e ngata pe he tangata 'e taha, 'atama hono 2, na'a ne
lava 'o fktahataha'i kotoa mai e ngaahi naunau 'e tolu 'o e pule'anga 'o e
'otua. sisu kalaisi.
'a ia ne hoko mai 'a e 'otua 'i hono 'alo, 'o feohi mo e tangata 'i ha
feitu'u 'e taha (mamani). ne hoko mai 'a sisu 'o fke'a 'a e pule 'a e 'otua
'aki 'a hono mafai ke pule 'i he ngaahi mafai 'o mamani moe mo'ui 'a e
tangata, pea na'a ne hoko mai ko e kakai totonu (ideal people of god) 'a e
'otua 'i he 'ene fkongoongo kakato ki he pule 'a e 'otua.
sai, 'i he fkkaukau e taha, kuo hoko mai e pule'anga 'ia kalaisi pea kuo tau
kau ki ai 'ia kalaisi, ka 'i he tafa'aki 'e taha 'oku tau kei nofo tatali ki
ha 'aho 'e vetekina ai e 'a e fefusiaki hotau anga fkemaama koeni, mo hotau
anga totonu 'ia kalaisi. 'i he tafa'aki 'e taha kuo hoko mai 'a e pule'anga
'ia kalaisi, 'i he'ene hoko ko e tangata ke lotolahi ai e tangata ke
'unu'unu atu 'o feohi moe 'otua. ka 'i he tafa'aki 'e taha 'oku 'ikai ke
pehe kotoa e tangata he 'oku kei 'i ai pe kakai ia 'oku nau kei angatu'u ki
he pule 'a e 'otua. 'e toki malava pe ke nofo taha 'a sihova mo hono kakai
totonu 'i ha feitu'u pe 'e taha 'i he 'aho 'e toki vahe'i ai e fanga kosi
meihe fanga sipi.
in this picture the paradox ought to be appreciated in that the tension
between the now and the not yet, is part of the way we live in the present.
it is also the hope we have in a better world. 'oku 'ikai ko ha 'uhinga eni
ke tau tuku ai e ngaue ke 'omi e kakai ki he pule'anga 'o e 'otua. mole ke
mama'o!!! ka 'oku 'uhinga pe ia ke tau tala ki he kakai 'oku 'i ai ha
'amanaki 'oku tu'u 'ia sisu.
ki'i apply nounou pe ki tonga.
ko e palopalema 'i tonga ko e fkkaukau tetau lava 'o 'omi - 'e he tangata -
'a hevani ki mamani. 'oku 'ikai ke fkkaukau pehe 'a e tohitapu ia. the
creation of a utopia is impossible in this side of life. 'oku tau 'ausia pe
eni 'ia kalaisi he lolotonga, pea ko e me'a ia 'oku ui ai kitautolu ko e
kakai pilikimi 'i he maama koeni, he 'oku tau fononga kitautolu ki ha fonua
'e toki hu'i ai e faingata'a 'oku tau fekuki mo ia 'i he maama koeni.
sai, kapau tetau malanga'i e pule'anga ko e me'a 'oku a'usia 'ia sisu ka 'e
toki kakato hono a'usia 'i he 'aho 'o e fkmaau - (i.e. 'e toki hu'i atu e
faingata'a 'i he kaha'u), 'oku tau fokotu'u leva ha taumu'a ki ha 'amanaki
'oku realisitic. ka neongo 'oku a'usia kakato 'i he kaha'u 'oku tau fononga
atu ki ai he lolotonga mo sisu. we are to practice in the present listenning
to god's rule, to becoming god's people, and living with god through christ
in the present.
'oku hoko e kaha'u ko e fklotolahi ke piki ki he palomesi. ko hono 'uhinga,
he 'e toki ma'u ai e pale (i.e. tau'ataina kakato meihe maama angahala
koeni, meihe nonofo kovi 'o e fu'u kuonga ni, etc).
ko e lau pe foki...
sfaupula
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ange 'a e sio ko ia he ko 'okuo u lahi fehu'i pee ka 'oku 'ikai keu
fu'u 'ilo fau ki he ngaahi kakano 'o e view ko ia.
'okuo u loto ke lakulaku atu e fanga ki'i me'a ni he 'oku malie ange
ia kiate au pea pehee ki he line of thoughts i like. 'oku lahi e
ngaahi naaunaau 'o e Fuakava Motu'a (kau ai 'a Paula), 'oku nau fatu
'enau ngaahi fakakaukau mei he ngaahi tala 'o e Fuakava Motu'a. Pea
'ikai ngata ai ka ko e toe 'ilo 'o e ngaahi naanunga fk-politikale 'o
e taimi ne hiki ai e ngaahi fakamatala 'o e Fuakava Fo'ou 'oku haa mai
ai 'a e ngaahi me'a ne ne uesia mo fakafotunga 'a e anga e hiki
kosiplei & Paula. awareness of prophetic language & historical
setting. pea 'ikai ngata ai ka koe fila eni 'o e kau tama 'oku malohi
he "hepeluu" & "kalisi".
kau afe si'i kia 1 Tesalonaika 4:15-17, koe text manako 'oku lave ki
he "punakaki" pea meimei 'oku piki atu 'a e fakakaukau ko ia ki he
'aho 'oku tau tali ki ai.
ko e lea koe "parousia", ko e lea eni 'oku ngaue'aki 'e Paula ki he
'fetaulaki' (apantēsis), 'a e kau faithful pea moe 'Eiki 'i he'ene
parousia. Ka ko e lea ni 'oku hangee ko 'etau ngaue'aki 'a e lea
"ha'ele", 'oku ngaue'aki ki he tali 'o e ha'u 'a ha ruler. Ko e
fa'ahinga Roman imperial ideology ia 'i he taimi 'o Paula ne ne fatu
mei ai 'a e fakakaukau 'i he'ene tohi ki he kainga Tesalonaika. (pea
'oku ma'u eni mei he mole taimi he lau e hisitolia). hangee eni a
historical settings.
ko e 'Eiki he'ene "hifo mai mei hevani"
ko e motif of the Lord descends from heaven 'oku tau lau mei he
Fuakava Motu'a - lea hangatonu (Mosese), pe ko 'ene hifo 'o tau'i 'a e
ngaahi fili 'o 'Isileli 'oku lau ki ai 'a e tohi 'a e kau palofita.
Fakatokanga'i ko e hifo mai ko eni 'i he Fuakava Motu'a 'oku 'ikai ko
'ene hifo mai ke fkngata 'a mamani (a final end of the world event) ka
e pule aoniu 'a 'Isileli, ka ko 'ene intervention to put thins right.
'oku 'i ai e ngahai 'imisi mei he Fuakava Motu'a 'oku ongo mai hono
ngaue'aki 'e Paula mei he text ko eni 'i'a Tesalonaika (great trumpet
- 'Aisea 27:13; archangels, asleep in christ - Daniel 12:1-3, ). 'o
hoko atu ai pee 'ia Taniela ki he ngaahi fotunga (prophetic language),
'oku fatu mei ai 'e Paula 'a 'ene fakalotolahi ki Tesalonaika.
'oku toe hoko atu e hisitolia ia ki hono faka-kainga 'o e
fakafe'atungia 'e he Roman imperial power 'a e si'i kau mu'aki Siasi.
Pea ko e fakalotolahi 'a Paula 'oku ne to'o mai mei he ngaahi 'imisi
'o e Fuakava Motu'a ko 'ene faingofua he 'oku nofo 'a e si'i kau
mu'aki Siasi 'oku nau 'ilo kanokato 'a e Scripture ko ia. Pea ko e
hoko mai 'a Sisu ko e ikuna ia. Manatu ko e taimi 'o e Fuakava Fo'ou &
'uluaki Siasi na'e - we have no king but Caeser (Sione 19:15), pea koe
mafai ia ne ne oppress e kau kalisitiane. Paul constructs this
narrative for a historical community that faced severe and protracted
opposition from a world-conquering pagan power. We can hardly escape
the conclusion that this passage is meant to pre-describe in the
prophetic language of the Old Testament the eventual vindication of
the suffering church against its imperial enemy.
Pea 'oku ou tui 'oku tatau pee mo e ngaahi fakakaukau kehe 'o e
pule'anga 'o e 'otua, 'i he ngaahi texts kehe (hangee kuo ke hiki mai
Veni) 'a e ongo mai ai 'a e ngaahi tala 'o e prophetic language mei he
Fuakava Motu'a k 'enau tuhu kotoa kih e historic events - Sisu,
Selusalema 70A.D ... etc
'i he maama ko ia 'oku kei faingata'a kiate au ke create a future
reality. and i am not it does really matter because, ko e palomesi 'o
Sisu in the NOW is enough.
mahalo 'apee na'a 'oku kamata ke toe ta'emahino. ka ko e lii pee ki
loto
Sitiveni K Faupula
>From: tv <mani...@yahoo.co.uk>
>Reply-To: tasil...@googlegroups.com
>To: Tasilisili-he-ngaluope <tasil...@googlegroups.com>
>Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Ngaahi 'Aho 'o e Uike Tapu - ko e fifili fo'ou?
>Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 12:49:44 -0700
>
>
>Pea 'oku ou tui 'oku tatau pee mo e ngaahi fakakaukau kehe 'o e
>pule'anga 'o e 'otua, 'i he ngaahi texts kehe (hangee kuo ke hiki mai
>Veni) 'a e ongo mai ai 'a e ngaahi tala 'o e prophetic language mei he
>Fuakava Motu'a k 'enau tuhu kotoa kih e historic events - Sisu,
>Selusalema 70A.D ... etc
>
>'i he maama ko ia 'oku kei faingata'a kiate au ke create a future
>reality. and i am not it does really matter because, ko e palomesi 'o
>Sisu in the NOW is enough.
>mahalo 'apee na'a 'oku kamata ke toe ta'emahino. ka ko e lii pee ki
>loto
------------
malo tevita pea 'oku ou kau pe au he taukave'i e mahu'inga 'o e fullfilment
of scriptures in the christ events. as paul confessed, all prophecies find
their yes in christ jesus, may all christians also give their full consent
through faith in christ. what the prophets would not have give to see what
the apostles saw. the promise salvation of israel have indeed come in the
christ.
now, does that mean that everything ends there? or, can we detect in
scriptures (new testament) a future aspect in gods plan, which has yet to
take place?
'oku ou tui ko e ngaahi fkmatala ko ia 'i he fuakava fo'ou, 'a ia ko ia 'oku
tuhu ki ha me'a 'oku tu'u tatali ke hoko he kaha'u, ko e ngaahi fkmatala
'oku fktefito kotoa pe he akonaki pe 'a sisu.
ko e taha e 'uhinga 'oku ou tui ai 'oku toe pe ha ngaahi me'a, he 'oku lave
'a sisu ki he 'ene 'alu kae toe foki mai 'i he kaha'u.
mt.24:44 "ke toka teuteu 'a kimoutolu foki: he ko e hoko mai 'a e fanautama
'a tangata 'e fai 'i ha taimi (hora) 'oku 'ikai te mou 'amanaki ai kiate
ia." ko e taimi 'i he'ene tu'u koeni 'e ala ma'u ai e fkkaukau 'e 2. 1] ko e
taimi kuo 'osi fkpapau'i - ka 'oku 'ikai 'ilo ha taha. 2] 'oku tuhu ki he
kaha'u.
sne 14:3 neongo teu 'alu 'o teuteu ha potu mo'omoutolu, ka 'oku ou toe ha'u
pe, pea teu ma'u kimoutolu kiate au; koe'uhi ko e potu 'oku ou 'i ai, ke mou
'i ai foki."
tu'unga 'i he fkkaukau 'oku toe ke foki mai 'a sisu, 'oku ou fekuki lahi
'aupito moe fkkaukau kuo ngata e palani 'a e 'otua 'i he christ event.
neongo kuo already realised in christ god's plan of redemption, 'oku te'eki
ke fully realised all the dimensions of his plan. partly because christ had
not yet return to judge all things and bring peace and justice upon his
chosen people.
in having said all that, i think the next step for us is to discuss the
positive aspects of the 'now' in your case and the 'already, yet to be fully
realised', on the hand. after all, we're not attempting to convince the
other of which is right or wrong. or are we? hahahahahah
'ofa moe hufia,
sfaupula
>>
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tv
the positive aspects of the 'now' in your case and the 'already, yet
to be fully realised', on the hand. after all, we're not attempting to
convince the other of which is right or wrong. or are we? hahahahahah
mahalo 'apee ko e me'aa ia. he ko e fakasiosio hake ki he ngaahi
tepile ko ee ngali leva 'oku 'i ai e ngaahi palema ia 'oku ki'i
mu'omu'a mai.
'oku kamata ke fai hono mahino'i 'a e fotunga 'o e tangutu'anga 'o e
fakakaukau ko ia 'oku ke lii ki loto. ka 'oku ou mahino'i mei he maama
'o hono lau 'o e ngaahi puipuitu'a (hisitolia) moe naaunau 'o e taimi
'o e Fuakava Fo'ou, pea 'ikai ngata ai ka ko e fa'ahinga lolenga 'oe
culture 'oku hiki mai mei ai 'a Tohitapu 'oku tau ngaue'aki. the
Jewish history & culture. pea koe language 'oku ngaue'aki 'oku hanga
'e he kau hisitolia 'o veuveuki (fifili'i), 'o hangee leva ne uesia 'a
e ngaahi tefito'i fakakaukau (eg, tuhu ki he kaha'u, toe foki mai 'a
Sisu ... etc) 'e fa'ahinga lea/fakatonulea 'oku tau ngaue'aki. (vakai
ki he 'miscommunication', 'i he tepile 'o e "foki ki 'api" ... lol).
Ko e malie ia kiate au 'a e teolosia mei he kau historians, ko 'enau
toe hanga 'o vetevete mo veuveuki 'a e ngaahi me'a ne hoko tonu he
hisitolia (actual events), pea faka-kainga ki he ngaahi prophetic
language 'o e Fuakava Motu'a. Pea tautefito ki he'eneau pehee 'oku 'i
ai a ngaahi 'ulungaanga malie 'o e "family" (the Jewish history), ne
fatu mei ai 'a e ngaahi fakakaukau. Pea 'e lava pee ke ta'aki hake 'a
e ngahi puipuitu'a historically 'o e ngahi text kuo ke fokotu'u mai
Veni, ka e mahalo 'oku tonu ke 'ai hano tepile. ka 'oku ou sio au 'e
ngali ko e ki'i tepile koia ko kitaua pee? pea sai pee ke ki'i parking
pe 'o tali 'alomalie.
Kaikehe, 'oku 'i ai e me'a 'oku kamata ke 'asi mai pea he'ilo pe 'oku
mo'oni e tukuaki'i ko eni pe 'ikai - 'oku hangee 'oku define hoto
tangutu'anga theologically by rejecting another. hangee nai ko e ui
kita ko e protestants, kapau 'oku 'ikai ke te katolika? and vice
versa! fefee ke toe ta'ota'o atu ki ho'o fokotu'u kimu'a ke 'ai ha
paradox fika tolu; kapau 'oku theologically justifiable pea kau he
pue?
ka koe lii pe ki loto ka e fai ha foki na'a ko ha 'api kehe eni ia
Sitiveni K Faupula
>From: tv <mani...@yahoo.co.uk>
>Reply-To: tasil...@googlegroups.com
>To: Tasilisili-he-ngaluope <tasil...@googlegroups.com>
>Subject: [tasilisili] Re: Ngaahi 'Aho 'o e Uike Tapu - ko e fifili fo'ou?
malo tevita e fktalanoa mai he me'a ni pea 'oku mo'oni 'aupito 'a e fkpatonu
e ngaahi sio ko ia 'oku ha he ngaahi fkmatala 'a nt wright and mcknight ki
hono fkkakato e ngaahi palofisai he fuakava motu'a ki he pule'anga 'o e
'otua 'i he 70 ts. ka ko e ki'i palopalema leka pe 'oku ou fekuki mo ia 'i
he ngaahi fkkaukau pehe, ko hono fkngata ki he 70 ts e ngaahi rich
descriptions (present and futuristic descriptions) 'o e pule'anga 'o e
'otua, 'a ia 'oku ha 'i he ngaahi kosipeli mo e ngaahi 'ipiseli. 'oku 'ikai
ke 'i ai ha fkkaukau ia 'i he fkkaukau 'o e 'now', ke pehe na'e develop
further e sisu e fkkaukau 'o e pule'anga 'o e 'otua ke fkkau 'a e kaha'u 'i
he palani 'a e 'otua. they seem to over emphasise apocalyptic imminence with
a stress on ad 70 as the the point of realisation. Wright's view on
eschatology, which he ties to kingdom reality, exclusively focusses on ad
70. anything further this historical point is purely a misreading of the
historical context of the kingdom passages.
mahalo ko e me'a 'oku taau ke tau hoko atu ki ai ko e sio ki he ngaahi
historical passages in their historical and theological context.
'ofa mo e lotu
sfaupula
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seni taniela
malo tv. & veni e fakakohukohu he tepile ni.
hokohoko atu...'oku ou sai'ia he kaveinga ni ka 'oku
ai e ki'i mo'ua he ngaahi me'a fakafamili pee pea ko e
uike ua 'o mee 'e fai e 'ataa kakato ke toki faifai ha
laulautohi ho'o ngaahi ipiseli kimu'a tv. he kou
fakatokanga'i hake 'oku lahi 'ete heka saliote
maumau..mo ta'eta'e'uhinga...ka 'oku mahu'inga e
kaveingaa ke te 'ilo na'a ko e me'a 'oku tee kiivoi ai
ko ha fananga pee...
fakatauange ke mou ma'u ha weekend mohu tapuekina
'ofa atu
seni