Act Of War High Treason Trainer
Jan Dominquez
For Steve - if Thomas More was so bad then along with Bloody Mary there should be some room made for Bloody Henry and Bloody Elisabeth who killed thousends of innocent women and children in Ireland and among Pilgrims purely for religious and power reasons... Let's stick to truth on both sides of the story
None of us were there at the time and no one knows truly what lies in any persons mind...however..to suggest Thomas More was "an innocent" is redrafting historical fact.
He got off rather lightly...no record of the rack....which he employed enthusiastically.
I'm not understanding why people are saying that Ann Boyelyn and Thomas More we're innocent. Thomas More burned several people while working for the King just because of their beliefs and Ann Boyelyn seduced, bewitched stole the Queen Catherine's husband (Henry) having no respect for her and then later plotted to have her killed along with Mary. She was a very evil woman. I've watched Tudors twice and know history as well and although Tudors is not a very historical reliable source I'm pretty certain that King Henry was a narsassistic man who insisted on his own way and wanted control of everything. When he didn't get his own way or was displeased Or bored he would find ways of getting rid of people. He was most-likely a very narrow minded person and I'm almost positive that anyone that knew him or worked at court was in danger of their very lives. To have executed thousands of people including women and children shows how cruel he was.
Anne Boleyn probably was no innocent. Her execution was inevitable as she was a clever woman. Cromwell..whose caree and writings I studied for part of my Master's Honours degree was a complex and learned man. I grudgingly admire him.
As to Sir Thomas More, you are incorrect. In fact, Cromwell made well-documented efforts to try and save More from the block. Thomas More was ultimately executed because he would not take an oath that King Henry VIII was supreme head of the church in England. During his trial, More went a step further by denouncing the king as the supreme head of the church. Thomas Cromwell had tried to persuade More on at least three occasions to save himself and sign the oath. More's refusal sealed his own fate.
I do not feel that Cromwell had any option but to obey the King's orders, and if that meant executing Anne Boleyn, regardless of whether she was guilty or not, Cromwell had to do it. I do feel sorry for him, however, as no person deserves such an execution.
I have always sympathized with Cromwell. He did what he had to do to say alive...for as long as he could. He did Henry VIII's bidding, he had no choice. I hate what happened to poor Anne Boleyn but Henry put it to Cromwell to handle.
Woolsey was another victim of Henry VIII. Woolsey and Cromwell were good friends.It was left to these 2 men to do the king's bidding, although Woolsey did make himself quite rich in the process
I have always been an "Anne Boleyn fan" so to say but I like Cromwell as well. I think it is rather unfair that people blame him and him alone for the execution of poor Anne. The truth is that if Cromwell had refused Henry would just have found someone else to get the legalities in order and then probably beheaded Cromwell too.
Seem to me that Henry viii was a narcisstic psychopath. Whether that was the case or not his years of rule were a brutal time to live in. The least disagreement with henry could cost you your head. Cromwell I think was manipulative and always advancing his own agenda. He saw the consequences of crossing king henry. If he had heen a wise man and not an ambicious one he might have kept his head.
HRVIII May well have been a monster in later life. However in the early years of his reign he was a very athletic, merciful & even tempered prince. Cromwell was instrumental in allowing HR to excercise his full power without censure & once he realised how far he could go without opposition there was no going back. Cromwell opened Pandora's box & paid the ultimate price for it
Yes. Calls to mind the limerick:
"There once was a lady from Niger, who smiled as she rode on a tiger. They returned from the ride with the lady inside, and the smile on the face of the tiger."
Cromwell the lady. Henry the tiger.
I think Holbein's portrait shows Cromwell as the soulless ruthless administrator and 'fixer' for Henry VIII that he was. He was the king's man, who had no other loyalties except to the advancement of his own family.He carried out Henry's will without regard for law or conscience capably, efficiently, and without pity. Henry, who was already in love with his next wife, Jane Seymour wanted Anne Boleyn gone so he could marry again. Cromwell went to work,bringing her and six men,one of whom was her own brother up on charges of adultery, incest, and high treason, among other things. It is likely that all were innocent. Mark Smeaton, her musician, tortured ,was the only one of the men to have admitted to the charge of adultery. Thomas Wyatt was the only one of the accused men who was not executed and was later released from the Tower thanks to his father's friendship with Cromwell.
Mark Rylance in the PBS series based on Hillary Mantel's Wolf Hall' portrays him as a thoughtful clever man who survives by his wits and does have qualms about and some pity for his victims. I don't see Cromwell that way, and I think the artist Hans Holbein saw him exactly as he was. After his fall from Henry's favor, Cromwell finally got to experience the pain and fear that he had inflicted on so many in the service of his king. His gory death mirrors the end of the elderly Margaret Plantagenet Pole, Countess of Salisbury, another innocent victim of Cromwell's whose execution was a bloody slaughter. he had been a governess to Mary Tudor, Henry's daughter by Katharine of Aragon and was a friend to Henry's first Queen. She was thrown into prison with other members of her family because her son Reginald, Cardinal Pole had written works critical of Henry. In addition,her Plantagenet ancestry caused Henry to see her as a threat.
Cromwell attainted her and sentenced the elderly Countess to death. She was as Henry's 'fixer' eventually was, literally hacked to death on the scaffold: poetic justice for Cromwell.
I haven't finished watching Wolf Hall (nor have I read the book yet), and I haven't seen anything about Margaret Pole yet. I was wondering if they would touch on that! I used to think Cromwell was a heartless bastard, but as I get older, I realize that he was just a product of Henry's time. As someone above says, he was a brutal master, and for a man with so lowly a start in life as Cromwell, having Henry's sun shine on him compelled him to do things he wouldn't have even considered in other times of history. IMHO, anyway. I don't think ANYBODY wasn't brutal then!
my history teacher told me that he was killed in his church beacuse he would not lissen to the 4 knights so the chopped his arm off then cut his belly open but when he fell to the florr they did not stop there.No one of the knights stuck his sord in his head and scatterd his brains all over the church.
lollypop: You are confusing Thomas Cromwell with Thomas a Beckett who was killed by 4 knights when they mistakenly thought their king (Henry II) wanted him dead. He was killed in Canterbury Cathedral.
Cromwell certainly had his failings and was not a pleasant man in a lot of respects. But I do believe he was always....always....loyal to the King. It was awful the way Charles Brandon, Duke of Suffolk, & his friends made sure that Cromwell's execution would be horribly botched. And they were intensely eager to bring about his downfall. I feel sorry for Thomas Cromwell.
No he wasn't - Oliver Cromwell was descended from Thomas Cromwell's sister Katherine, who married a man with the surname Williams. After Thomas Cromwell's deeds were long forgotten the family changed their name to Cromwell to go back to their roots. So, Oliver Cromwell and Thomas Cromwell were related, but Thomas Cromwell was Oliver's Great Great Great Uncle not Granddad.
de castro: Oliver Cromwell did not execute Charles I. It was Oliver Cromwell and the Parliament who signed Charles I death warrant. Oliver Cromwell was later made Protector and he ruled England in place of a King or Queen until his death in September 1658.
The Name CROMWELL & APPLETREE is to be listed at the International Criminal Court in the Hague with direct links to Doncaster Council and all catagories of abuse political purpose imprisonment of children against their birth parents with direct abuse links to North Lincolnshire Council and Kedal Cumbria.
Read Hilary Mantel's Wolf Hall and Bring Up the Bones for a view of Cromwell. I really like her 'take' on Thomas; not such a bad guy, just a brilliant one who learned to survive by his wits until he crossed an angry and disillusioned king.
Mr. Cromwell had no choice! It was what Henry wanted. He couldn't divorce yet another queen, after the fiasco of the first, so they had to come up with a different way to get rid of her. Henry was the monster, not Cromwell
i got an A ;social economic history GCSE: now fifty two addicted to Mark Rylance and the adaptation of wolf hall currently reading. Cromwell was emotionally intelligent for sure and could see three moves down the line of behavioural consequence ,the complexity of human nature and motivation. Adaptable and i think not without compassion he knew then instinctively , pragmatism is necessary for prevailence, ...a very Darwenian ethos, at a time when many felt the world was flat. Keith in wigan , anyone e mail id love to debate
Thank you. Watched Wolf hall and am now watching "Monarchy" with my Roku streaming Acorn channel. I was confused until it was pointed out it was Thomas then Oliver. From what I could glean, Thomas had to do the King's bidding about Ann. I think he knew it was a loser. As with those times, in my opinion, Ann may not have been guilty of adultery. Her sin was she could not produce a male heir. She had also taken more power than was allowed by women in those days. Watch Monarchy streaming on Acorn.
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