"Cult-thinking," anyone?
vals...@my-deja.com
Hoffmeister, asking for his "take" on
the "Holy Smoke" posts which are being systematically aired within the
Course community.
For me, David's contribution here sets the standard for an intelligent
and loving discussion on the subject of
cults and cult-thinking - both in and outside ACIM circles.
So here it is!
In love, peace, and truth,
Val
...............
Dear Val,
I once posted this message to a message board at your request.
Wisdom is timeless: as applicable now as always. Beyond form is Content.
God
knows not form. Love is Content and not form of any kind. Such is
the teaching of ACIM, and happily I share what is Given to share.
Love,
David
Q: What distinguishes an authentic spiritual path from that of a
cult? What exactly is a cult?
D: The best indicator of an authentic spiritual path is one that
instructs that responsibility for your state of mind at any given moment
rests with you. The
truth is within and cannot be found in persons, places, or things
"outside" your Christ Self.
Truth is not something that can be found in a book or object. Truth
is beyond words and symbols. Truth is an experience of the Living Moment
that will
dawn of Itself. The Spirit uses the symbols and sights and sounds of
the world, including people and music and words of inspiration
(scriptures), to
help the deceived mind to the point of Realization or Recognition.
These are all stepping stones or metaphors, and they all dissolve at the
point of
Recognition, which is an experience within!
True spirituality rests on open communication, the release of all
attack thoughts (and the fear, guilt, and anger that they produce),
nonjudgment, true
humility, and defenselessness, gentleness, and divine mercy. Any
authentic spiritual path will promote forgiveness and advocate laying
aside grievances.
All are included in the experience of love, for it is unconditional
and impersonal, and everyone is equally loved and appreciated.
A "cult" is a symbol or representation of the belief that your state
of mind is dependent on a person, place, event, or circumstance and is
not a decision of
your mind. Faith is placed in "external authorities and forms and
rituals," and the underlying experience will always be based on fear, no
matter how
endearing or adoring the devotion seems to be. Ultimately you can
never really love or adore or be devoted to anything specifc or anything
in form, for
truth cannot be found in images and symbols. When you attach to the
form or scenario or script you believe will make you happy, a substitute
or idol
image has been made and accepted as real, and is being worshipped.
The awareness of Truth is denied in such an attempt. And the pseudo
"love" will
turn to hate and anger in the mind of the "leader" or "follower."
What can turn to hate was never the Love of God, but was instead the
desire to be special and "loved" in a personal sense. There appears a
"holier than
thou" mentality in cult-thinking, which attempts to raise some
people up and put other people down and perpetuates a "we/they" division.
Hence, there is
always a fear of an external "enemy."
In true spirituality everyone is always welcome, for it becomes
apparent that we are always meeting our Self. No one is turned away or
"judged against."
Acceptance of the truth is an experience in which no one is "labeled
and dismissed," for the experience of truth is vast and expansive and
All-inclusive!
The experience is freely given by God, and the Peace and Joy and
Love of God is beyond the possibility of commercialization. There is no
reciprocity
(giving to get) and authentic spirituality cannot be bought or sold.
Love is freely given, and by giving It, It is retained in awareness. What
you share is
strengthened in your awareness, so by giving Love you become aware
that you have Love and are Love. This is how the mind is awakened by the
Holy
Spirit from the dream of scarcity, guilt, fear, and death. First you
learn to forgive (or release illusions), and in unlearning the world you
are awakened
unto Eternal Life!
The opposite of a life of Love and forgiveness and trust in God is a
"condition" of fear, guilt, scarcity, and anger. This "condition" is the
simplest way to
define "cult-thinking." Because of intense fear and suspicion,
"cult-thinking" involves threats, privacy, secrecy, hierarchies and
"chains of command,"
attempts at control and manipulation through breaking off
communication or using communication to "make guilty." It may seem to
manifest as scarcity
(hoarding of food, money, possessions, and supplies out of a fear
that they may run out). It may also manifest under the guise of abundance
(power,
wealth, fame, psychic powers, energy experiences and phenomenon that
are valued in and of themselves). These pursuits, under the guise of
spirituality
and religion, are distractions and detours to true peace and
happiness. When the ego is highly threatened, it may even resort to
confrontation, the use of
firearms and weapons, violence, or suicide as an "escape."
"Cult-thinking" rests on judgment, for it raises some people up as
special "good ones" and lowers others down as the "bad ones." The "good
ones" are
praised and loyally adored, while the "bad ones" are attacked,
avoided, blamed, abandoned, excluded, or rejected. "Cult-thinking"
involves forming
cliques around worldly and historic beliefs and values of ethnicity
or heredity or tradition or geography or nationality or race or gender or
age or formal
religious practices and rituals. "Cult-thinking" may involve
anything specific in the world, as long as boundaries and differences are
maintained at all
costs, so uniqueness and a special "identity" can be kept. "Cult-
thinking is quick to anger and accuse and sometimes as quick to flee, and
is particularly
threatened by open, direct communication.
Future loss is not the greatest fear of "cult-thinking," for present
joining and union is what it dreads most. Complete joining the ego sees
as the
abolishing of privacy and separation, and this it cannot tolerate.
To protect itself, the ego will attempt isolation and rely heavily on
"fight or flight"
strategies. Decisions are made hastily and always based in fear.
Reason and patience and cooperation and clear-thinking are de-emphasised,
and shared
opinions, gossip, and grievances are rallying points against the
perceived "external enemy," hence the "group-think" mentality.
Moral and ethical systems of behavior (around sexuality, money, and
possessions, etc.) and arbitrary standards are often cited and defended
as good
reasons" for attacking, condemning, avoiding, blaming, excluding, or
rejecting the persons, things, groups, institutions, or countries that
have been
labeled "bad or wrong." This "judging against" based on perceived
differences is the rationale the ego uses for the dismissing, isolating,
and separating
tendency that is so highly valued by the ego.
All "cult-thinking" is based on fear, though it is not seen that the
fear is not really based in the images of the world (persons, places,
things, events,
etc.). The underlying fear is the fear of God and the Holy Spirit,
which strikes terror in the ego. Darkness is afraid of the approach of
Light. The
opposite of Love seems to be fear, but Love is all-encompassing and
has no opposite! "Cult-thinking" is therefore no real threat to a mind
that is devoted
to Loving. A clear mind, free of judgment, is very capable of
forgiving, or seeing the false as false. The still Mind rests in God. And
who can fear when
there is Love?
I am so grateful to teach and learn that Innocence is real and guilt
and condemnation are false witnesses. I am so grateful to learn that
nobody is ever to
blame and that it is impossible to be unfairly treated. "Cult-
thinking" is just another name for the ego or the world of darkness.
Jesus tells us to be of
good cheer and to be happy learners, for He has overcome the world!
A misperception can always be corrected by a miracle. "Cult-thinking" and
"cults"
are errors, for they come not from our Heavenly Father. A Child of
God need not seek outside and fall for the ego's games of attack and
defense. "Judge
not, lest ye be judged" is an instruction not to attempt something
you are incapable of. A mind that values stillness and quiet and peace is
a mind that
does not attempt judgment. Forgiveness and nonjudgment are
synonomous.
If we want peace, we must hold every thought up to the Light of
Truth. If a thought does not come from God, the only thing to do is to
release it and
harbor it no longer. "Manipulation" is of the ego, for God did not
create it. "Betrayal" is of the ego, for God did not create it.
"Abandonment" is of the
ego, for God did not create it. "Attack" is of the ego, for God did
not create it. "Rejection, exclusion, avoidance, isolation, condemnation,
scarcity, fear,
anger, guilt, and even death" are all of the ego, for God did not
create them. If these or any of the fearful beliefs, thoughts, and
emotions the ego
sponsors are believed in as the truth, the world will outpicture or
witness to this belief. That is why these beliefs must be questioned.
When the mind
clings to these beliefs, thoughts, and emotions, and protects them,
upset is unavoidable. Forgiveness is the laying aside of all these
transitory beliefs,
thoughts, and emotions. Forgiveness of illusions brings peace,
happiness, freedom, and the remembrance of Divine Love! How magnificent
is the
Perspective that simply sees the false as false! How glorious is the
Mind that recognizes Itself as One!
The Mind that is shared with God is Pure Oneness and knows not of
judgment. For in Oneness there is nothing to judge between! This Mind is
forever
Innocent, for Life and Being are in the Mind of God. Holy Child of
God, You are Innocent forever! Hallowed be Thy Name and the Name of Our
Creator God! Thy Kingdom has come! Thy Will is done!
....................
Hi Ben, David, Kathy -
Have send you two long posts from the "Holy Smoke" folks (there is
definitely more than one person in the picture, as you will come to
note), which I would like to urge you to take a good, close look at.
But not from just a metaphysical standpoint. Something is unfolding
through EA, and I'm not sure what it really is. In fact, the
situation
reminds me of Lesson 25, "I do not know what anything is for"!
As you know, I do not think this is just "smoke and mirrors" stuff,
and
therefore can be dismissed accordingly, because there much too much
substance here (albeit it within the dream) to ignore.
Looks to me that EA is in a state of rapid decline at the moment.
What
do you think?
In love, peace, and truth,
Val
..................
Foundation for the Awakening Mind
http://www.awakening-mind.org
4443 Station Avenue (Rear Bldg.)
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Thank You Holy One!!!
You are Loved forever & always!!!
............................
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
bein...@my-deja.com
>
> Q: What distinguishes an authentic spiritual path from that of a
> cult? What exactly is a cult?
>
> D: The best indicator of an authentic spiritual path is one that
> instructs that responsibility for your state of mind at any given
moment
> rests with you. The
> truth is within and cannot be found in persons, places, or things
> "outside" your Christ Self.
-------
including, paradoxically,The Course,the teachers, the masters....
unless the at-one-ing mind knows them as the Christ....
which is what all things are....
---------------
amen....
so we are trapped here in this world...for all things here are images
and symbols we/I have made...
all the words...all the sights and sounds...
all sensory modalities...
even our own thoughts....
>
> If we want peace, we must hold every thought up to the Light of
> Truth. If a thought does not come from God, the only thing to do is to
> release it and
> harbor it no longer.
As having lived At Endeavor for four years (apr 95-apr 99) I have only
the grateful memory of that being the daily message at session...
"release-it".....let it go....
That Endeavor may be construed as a cult...for sure../. but as in their
instruction, on a daily basis, the emphasis is that everything here is
of a cult -like nature...everything..., our minds will not believe that,
and so hold sacred those that it refuses to examine....
The "release" is everything .....
The Academy has taught that and only that in countless forms....
but as you say, the form means nothing.....
but that is the dilemma of teaching in an apparent dualistic
framework... the teacher will always be lying....
THere is no Master Teacher, as Master Teacher himself has said...there
is only "M- T- ness"...
and we fill in the void with our own imaginings....
sincerely,
Ben B
Jon Tiede
What always amazes me Is how absolutely individual the process of
transformation is. No matter what the seeming circumstance I make,it is
only MY dream and only I can choose To "let it go". There is only one
reality that I will be awakened to and absolutely everything that I do
in the dream is a miscreation but nevertheless a miscreation that is
honored by God. He loves me absolutely and has left His plan in place
knowing full well everything I ever did or will do is my "path" and that
I will tire of it. All I can ever do is take responsibility for my
miscreations and release them and it seems I dont do that until they
become so painful that I am willing to be responsible in my total
anguish (not blame something or someone else) AND BE STILL ENOUGH in
that pain to let God work His miracle.
The fact that I chose endeavor as part of the dream is of course as
meaningless as anything else in the dream but it is the time AND PLACE I
CHOSE to begin to accept the totality of the responsibilityfor a
purposeless dream I made up and I am forever grateful for it. The
experiences and memories there are so ..well, come to think of it-- just
not communicatable. I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that I could not
have learned what I learned in this lifetime without endeavor and I
know that it is something only I had to do .
I dont know if this has a damn thing to do with your post or anything
else for that matter . I guess Ill send it along in any case.
Jon (Bruno)
Rejajoy
Thank you for sharing what David had written. What is amazing is
how different our (yours and mine) experiences are of EA.
Tom and I spent 2 days there last Fall and we were wrapped in
the warmest of embraces.
At that time, I mentioned this to you, and I remember you told
me that perhaps they were putting their best foot forward so as
not to alienate us. ;-)
I don't think so.
The kind of loving vibrations that we felt there...were like
those that could only proceed from loving THOUGHTS. I have never
felt such non-judgment and such un-conditional love as I felt
there.
I am not saying that there is no ego there at all...but I AM
saying that there is a Soul connection that is evident and most
obvious and it is so incredibly beautiful.
I heard that one little boy (a customer at the Cheese Factory
Restaurant that is run by the EA Community) said, "Mommy....that
lady is just like "Touched by an Angel". ;-)
And that is how we felt too!! I've been in food service...and I
love to serve and I know the joy of giving through LOVE and
that's what we received at that restaurant.
At in their Bed and Breakfast, everything sang out from LOVE.
All of the decor, every detail..and the people who served
us...All were like living love!
My "experience" of this community speaks volumes to me and to my
Heart.
I FEEL their innocence as I 'experience' them experiencing their
own innocence. Do you know what I mean?? To be in the presence
of another who KNOWS they are innocent and that who knows that
you are too!!! What Bliss! They are mirrors for one another and
for me...reflecting back to me my innocence, my beauty, my Place
in the Heart of God.
Words fail me, Val. The meaning of EA, for me, comes from my
Soul as it resonates with the Love. The LOVE I recognize and
KNOW as our only REALITY.
The following is a post I sent to you via private email, after
you mentioned your thoughts regarding your experiences at EA.
=================================
Dearest Val,
I do not speak for CIMS. I only REALLY speak for myself. CIMS
does not agree with many of the actions of EA and is definitely
not a "front".
I ONLY speak from my own experience which actually does not
involve the past in truth because 'in truth' the past does not
exist.
There is only this beautiful Moment of NOW. And in my NOW, when
I think of any of those people, my heart opens. That is what I
can say with full Truth. I truly cannot guess their motives,
judge their actions, comment on their thoughts.
Joy (or BLISS) is an attribute of God's Teachers. I cannot
analyze where that 'joy' comes from in the people I see and
experience at EA. All I can Know is how I 'felt' and that's all
I'm willing to share. That's all I Know, for sure --> my
feelings.
'Time' does not figure in here, Val. What is time? If you were
to stay with this Moment, and release the past and all the
grievance that it spawns for you, what would BE there?
HE has asked us to see in our Brother's what GOD would 'see'.
Look with the "Spiritual Eye" that HE speaks of in the original
manuscript and what will you see?
You mentioned all the 'time' you have spent at EA. How, my
friend, could I take into account 'your past' experiences with
EA in relationship to my present experience? Why would I, if I
could? Your 'past' is yours to hold onto as you choose.
Your 'past' has nothing to do with how I hold my Brother in my
Heart.
I'm not saying anyone is in ego, but if you were in ego,
wouldn't you want everyone to 'see' you as your really ARE, in
Truth, so that in that reflection you could let go of your
limitations and open your Heart?
He wants us to look on ALL our Brothers and see the Christ in
them. Not if they deserve it. Not if they demonstrate this
truth. Not if they are perfect. But NOW.
Fear is the stranger here. If EA were to all commit suicide
tomorrow, that would not change the REALITY that they are
totally sinless and innocent Children of God and that death does
not exist!! This is a fearful thought to those who identify with
the body.
For me, Truth is not proven in the 3D. It's already TRUE. ;-) I
believe that IT is complete and whole and KNOWN in the timeless
dimension of Eternity.
Val......I do not share in your analysis of EA. I only choose to
share with you the Loving Thoughts of God because my heart Knows
these are true. (My ego has no loving thoughts and will always
steer me wrong.)
I also cannot share in another student's experience of EA,
either bad or good. I can only KNOW my own.
So, my Brother...I behold the Christ in YOU!!!
Let's spread His message that "the Peace of God is in me NOW" !
Peace and much love to you ALWAYS!!,
~Reja
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
vals...@my-deja.com
Reja, dear -
We are indeed poles apart of this subject. You spent 2 days there. I
was there during the first 9 months of
EA's existence, participated at all levels of their program, worked at
the Cheese Factory in various capacities
(in the kitchen and served tables), enjoyed a primary holy relationship
with Eva (Carole Flaherty) for many
months (and have been in close touch with her ever since), wrote and
published a small book on my various
experiences there with no personal bitterness in it (if you will read it
carefully) - and furthermore have been
in close touch with the whole Endeavor scene since 1993 in a whole
variety of ways.
None of which you seemed to have taken into account, Reja. Nor do you
and Tom seemed to have taken into
account what the Holy Smoke people and whole list of others have been
reporting - especially lately.
I know all about the warm feelings when among the brothers there. Cults
are all like that at certain times.
Nor do I wish to invalidate the love that is there. For you could say
that I experienced it in spades while I was
there, and most certainly was not an unhappy brother while I was a
resident there. But it is all only a
spiritual bypass, Reja; not the real article at all. Much more going on.
Much more than people like you and
Tom have been willing to pick up - at least so far.
And on the copyright issue MT, Hector, and company have been totally
dishonest and hypocritical in just about
every conceivable way on this matter. MT believes in copyright, Reja.
Indeed, has stated so many times in
my presence. So that group are not coming from principle at all, in my
opinion; simply opportunism on
behalf of their "special" purpose - which just about everyone close to
their scene realizes. Can't understand
why you haven't picked that up. Really can't. Just don't want to, I
guess.
Anyway, I see that you and Tom are really just apologists for EA after
all. A "front" for EA. Too bad for
CIMS. Also, too bad for you, sweetheart. Someday this will all make
more sense to you. And I sincerely
hope that that day will be soon.
As many people are trying to point out: it is not about "bliss"; it is
about awakening from the dream through
God's plan. THAT is what the EA scene has totally bypassed, Reja.
Again, I urge you to do more homework.
The evidence is piling up everywhere that the whole GCP/EA operation is
nothing but "a cult-guru trip
hitchhiking on A Course in Miracles."
As I say, too bad. But that's the way it is in my experience. It really
is. And I don't mean that in any
superficial way.
And so I guess that's it between us on this subject - at least for now.
In love, peace, and truth,
Val
dth...@golden.net
On Sat, 29 Jul 2000 vals...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> As many people are trying to point out: it is not about "bliss"; it is
> about awakening from the dream through
> God's plan. THAT is what the EA scene has totally bypassed, Reja.
> Again, I urge you to do more homework.
> The evidence is piling up everywhere that the whole GCP/EA operation is
> nothing but "a cult-guru trip
> hitchhiking on A Course in Miracles."
Let's say you're right here Val, that EA has missed the boat and is a
"cult-guru trip." It's a long leap from there to say it is "nothing but"
that. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Could it be possible that EA is all you say it is AND THEN SOME?
EA appears to be at the edge of freeing the Course from copyright
restrictions. Master Teacher didn't set out to eliminate the copyright,
you're right. Sometimes when the Holy Spirit asks us to do things we
don't know what those things are and the result is a great deal better
than we had imagined to be possible.
There is no order of difficulty in miracles. Jesus can use donkeys and
gurus and prostitutes and saints with equal ease, if they are willing.
Are you saying that Jesus can't use EA to perform a miracle for the
Sonship? If that is your point, and it seems to be, I think your Jesus is
too small.
"By their fruits ye shall know them" Val. EA, for all its shortcomings,
has played a central, leadership role in releasing the authentic Course to
the light of day. Without EA and MT, none of this would have happened.
We'd all still believe that there were "virtually no changes" in the
abridged editions. Whether this was the role MT planned or not, it's the
role he's played along with the other folks at EA, and it's a role for
which we all owe that whole crew, whatever their human frailties, a deep
debt of gratitude.
No more perfect than you or I, they have offerd the Spirit a "little
willingness" and have been used by Him powerfully. This is what the
record shows. That doesn't mean they are right in everything nor that
your critique and that of "Holy Smoke" doesn't contain valid points. It
does mean that having made a mistake yesterday doesn't mean that the
Spirit can't work through one today!
As you've often told me Val, only God's way works. God's way is
forgiveness. Do you think God doesn't forgive EA?
I think you don't.
Look not at your brother's shortcomings, cut him some slack and look to
the miracles of the Spirit which are pouring forth through your brother!
All the best,
Doug
vals...@my-deja.com
the end justify the means. I say the means determine the end.
It's not a case of right or wrong. That's irrelevant. It's about what
works. And, in my experience, hypocrisy NEVER works - something we All
indulge ourselves in, I remind you, and constantly need to forgive
ourselves and each other for.
Towards the end of your communication, you say:
"As you've often told me Val, only God's way works. God's way is
forgiveness. Do you think God doesn't forgive EA?
"I think you don't."
Doug, that's EA's current line towards me which you are repeating here.
Not true, Doug. Not true. I've offered several times to go to EA for
joining and healing purposes, but each time they turn the offer down.
It's silly, Doug, but these guys actually appear to be afraid of me -
although they keep denying that, of course. Our friends in Emerald City,
Wisconsin, still have in effect their Anti-Toto Law"!
As you say, "By their fruits ye shall know them."
Pertinent?
As for the copyright thing, as one who is on record for having raised
this matter some 15 years ago - and vigorously - I say it is a
significant issue, but NOT an important one!
What IS important, I suggest, is that we individually and collectively
help bring about a true joining and healing among us - honest-to-God
forgiveness, if you will - on a VOLUNTARY basis. That's my position.
That has ALWAYS been my "position." Fighting this thing out through the
courts is simply an ego trip, and therefore is utterly meaningless.
Consider, how would the author of the Course - Jesus - be speaking
to us RIGHT NOW, if we could hear him in our minds? Do you think he
would be arguing
anywhere CLOSE to what you are arguing for within a win-lose legal
context, with "gratitude" expected in the way that you have described it?
I think not, my brother. I think not.
In love, peace, and truth,
Val
JamesM
>That's my position.
> That has ALWAYS been my "position."
And that is the problem val. You have a position. God has no position
on any of this. He just Is.
x
LindaL
> What IS important, I suggest, is that we individually and collectively
> help bring about a true joining and healing among us - honest-to-God
> forgiveness, if you will - on a VOLUNTARY basis. That's my position.
> That has ALWAYS been my "position." Fighting this thing out through the
> courts is simply an ego trip, and therefore is utterly meaningless.
LindaL:
FACIM/FIP have brought the lawsuits about - never too late to withdraw,
chuck the whole thing and turn it on over... and they were told time and
again that it wouldn't work. Regardless of how it all got started, all the
papers belong to all of us, period. They have been given every opportunity
to relent and compromise, but have chosen to fight instead. They didn't
listen to the still small Voice, they chose the other... it's the only
choice there was to make, it is for any of us. As Ken told me on the phone
last March, there are consequences... and this is big time fallout depending
on how you look at it. Otoh we've all had to "pay our dues" for mistaken
choices, really not a big deal... Jesus knows. The
healing/joining/forgiveness *will* come, actually already *has* come... just
not recognized by all as yet. When it is, we'll all be side-by-side on an
equal basis as was always intended.
Val:
> Consider, how would the author of the Course - Jesus - be speaking
> to us RIGHT NOW, if we could hear him in our minds?
LindaL:
I imagine he would say something like "strap yourself in, we're flat flying
low headed on home ;)"
Here's my hand for you or anyone else to take - hang on :)
One for All and All for One
Amminadab
>
> We are indeed poles apart of this subject. You spent 2 days there. I
> was there during the first 9 months of
> EA's existence, participated at all levels of their program, worked at
> the Cheese Factory in various capacities
> (in the kitchen and served tables), enjoyed a primary holy relationship
> with Eva (Carole Flaherty) for many
> months (and have been in close touch with her ever since), wrote and
> published a small book on my various
> experiences there with no personal bitterness in it (if you will read it
> carefully) - and furthermore have been
> in close touch with the whole Endeavor scene since 1993 in a whole
> variety of ways.
So has marty preston, and sue b, and katie, and monty barber, and jubi, and
jon bruno, and mike crowley, and lovely ana, and charlotte, and many, many
others. Their experiences and views of EA differ significantly from yours.
Do you think EA is responsible for the experiences you had and your current
judgments about them?
>
> None of which you seemed to have taken into account, Reja. Nor do you
> and Tom seemed to have taken into
> account what the Holy Smoke people and whole list of others have been
> reporting - especially lately.
Holy Smoke is ian, and he has been crying about his past grievances for
years now.
>
> I know all about the warm feelings when among the brothers there. Cults
> are all like that at certain times.
Damn them.
> Nor do I wish to invalidate the love that is there. For you could say
> that I experienced it in spades while I was
> there, and most certainly was not an unhappy brother while I was a
> resident there.
So why continue trashing the experience and the brothers who offered the
experience?
>But it is all only a
> spiritual bypass, Reja; not the real article at all.
You experienced love in spades...... yet you call it a spiritual bypass?
What exactly were you seeking?
>Much more going on.
> Much more than people like you and
> Tom have been willing to pick up - at least so far.
So..... because their experience differs from yours........ THEY must be
deficient in some way?
Read the book again, val.
Tom and Reja have legitimate experiences also. I met them at Revelation
Hall..... that was part of their experience.
When you visit someone, do you go through their drawers and medicine cabinet
looking for dirt?
> And on the copyright issue MT, Hector, and company have been totally
> dishonest and hypocritical in just about
> every conceivable way on this matter.
My! That is quite the Course-based, unsupported allegation.
MT believes in copyright, Reja.
> Indeed, has stated so many times in
> my presence. So that group are not coming from principle at all, in my
> opinion; simply opportunism on
> behalf of their "special" purpose - which just about everyone close to
> their scene realizes. Can't understand
> why you haven't picked that up. Really can't. Just don't want to, I
> guess.
Not all of us are looking for faults as intensely as you are. I'm sure if
you look under my bed you'll find dustbunnies.
I saw problems at EA. Have you reached YOUR perfection?
> Anyway, I see that you and Tom are really just apologists for EA after
> all. A "front" for EA. Too bad for
> CIMS. Also, too bad for you, sweetheart. Someday this will all make
> more sense to you. And I sincerely
> hope that that day will be soon.
And you, val..... are a stoopid, pompous ass.
>
> As many people are trying to point out: it is not about "bliss"; it is
> about awakening from the dream through
> God's plan. THAT is what the EA scene has totally bypassed, Reja.
Ha! And the stoopid, pompous ass thinks that EA can act in a way that is
NOT in accordance with God's Will. };-)
> Again, I urge you to do more homework.
> The evidence is piling up everywhere that the whole GCP/EA operation is
> nothing but "a cult-guru trip
> hitchhiking on A Course in Miracles."
GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY!
> In love, peace, and truth,
Ha! Which part of your post contained ANY love of peace?
or truth?
Amminadab
[You are afraid of this because you believe that, WITHOUT the ego, all would
be chaos. Yet I assure you that, without the ego, all would be LOVE.] JCIM
Mike Down Under
"Amminadab" <rrot...@uswest.com> wrote
> > I know all about the warm feelings when among the brothers there. Cults
> > are all like that at certain times.
>
> Damn them.
> GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY!
Even more interesting quotes from dibdab the graduate!
Sharon
I just got back from Endeavor for a weekend stay. All I can say is; is;
"WOW!"
The process of Awakening is *ALL* within my own Mind. I either *want*
it or I *don't* want it: It's entirely up to me!
Since all the power of God is within my own Mind; I will have whatever
experience at Endeavor that I choose to have. If I want it to be a
cult; it will be a cult: If I want to Awaken there; I will Awaken
there.
It is really that simple!
Awakening can happen anywhere ... but with your Mighty Companions by
your side; it is so much easyier and beautiful. At least that was my
experience!
Everyone at the Miracles Healing Center was beautiful and guided me in
Love so that I could have the experience myself. Only the way that you
get "there" is personal; but once you are "there" it is All One Mind and
it is a unversal experience of Peace and Joy.
I love you ALL,
Sharon VandenToorn
Richard A. Thayer
On the open screens. There is no privacy. Can you take it?
Please feel free to do this back to me. I doubt you
could surprise me with your observations; know I'm
working to iron out my wrinkles too.
Purpose: several times you asked posters this week,
why won't you write to me.
Possible reason: Your energy takes over your purpose.
You do point out errors. You also leave
a chunk of possible offering behind your fingers unposted,
unhelpful.. The accusation is not often balanced by something
helpful . Yes you work in a CIMS quote signoff.. But most often
it merely points toward you-- and showcases the absurdity of
being riled up then plastering some kind of lovey dovey cover/word
as a panacea..
.
Example:
You're wrong. ( then you repeat it repeat it, and finally sign off)
It's very much like the queen in Alice in Wonderland.
Wrong she shouts. ! Idiot!
Off with her head !
Next comes your CIMS quote.
It doesn't match your own tone at the end
so the person reading says-- he's full of shit! I'm gonna
listen to him? Look at him
posting about love and acting like he hates where I am.
Wanna be a better communicator?
Wanna really share what you know?
Here's an opportunity to look at your "style" and
decide what you like.
As I said, anyone can do this back at me.
You'll have to gallop though.
I've not got a totally set style.
I have something that's pattern, but I doubt if
people read enough of me to know what it is.
It has to do with my personal energy too.
LINDA
Examples below.
Amminadab wrote:
>
> Read the book again, val.
>
>
> My! That is quite the Course-based, unsupported allegation.
>
>
> ot all of us are looking for faults as intensely as you are. I'm sure if
> you look under my bed you'll find dustbunnies.
>
> I saw problems at EA. Have you reached YOUR perfection?
>
> and you, val..... are a stoopid, pompous ass.
>
> >Ha! And the stoopid, pompous ass thinks that EA can act in a way that is
> NOT in accordance with God's Will. };-)
>
> GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY!
>
> > In love, peace, and truth,
>
holysmoke
VARIOUS PEPLE WROTE, RE ENDEAVOR ACADEMY:
>
>
> Everyone at the Miracles Healing Center was beautiful and guided me in
> Love so that I could have the experience myself. Only the way that you
> get "there" is personal; but once you are "there" it is All One Mind and
> it is a unversal experience of Peace and Joy.
>
>
> > Tom and I spent 2 days there last Fall and we were wrapped in
> > the warmest of embraces.
> >
> > At that time, I mentioned this to you, and I remember you told
> > me that perhaps they were putting their best foot forward so as
> > not to alienate us. ;-)
> >
> > I don't think so.
> >
> > The kind of loving vibrations that we felt there...were like
> > those that could only proceed from loving THOUGHTS. I have never
> > felt such non-judgment and such un-conditional love as I felt
> > there.
> >
>
> >
> > Joy (or BLISS) is an attribute of God's Teachers. I cannot
> > analyze where that 'joy' comes from in the people I see and
> > experience at EA. All I can Know is how I 'felt' and that's all
> > I'm willing to share. That's all I Know, for sure --> my
> > feelings.
MY REPLY:
This is often the first impression. Also newcomers are often
'love-bombed',
> as at all cults.
>
> I imagine your view may change when Hector whcks you, throws you
across the
> room or punches you. Or maybe when Dear One pulls your hair so hard
you
> cry, and tells you to 'Go away and die!' Or when what funds you
possess are
> reported through the network to the teachers, whereupon you are
subtly,
> gradually relieved of them.
>
> Unfortunately for you, such revelations may be years down the track.
>
> Please don't say you weren't warned.
>
> Best Wishes,
>
> HS
vals...@my-deja.com
It is not an exaggeration.
I drew the line when MT tried this rough stuff with me, and we have never
seen each other since - even though I have always been willing to meet
him again. Only as a peer.
Bullies are bullies. And cult-guru trips are full of them. And
"spiritual ostriches" can see or fly!
Also recall Pinnochio's "Pleasure Island" - fun-loving boys turning into
slave donkeys?
Take heed. Take care. Be real.
In love, peace, and truth,
Val
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
vals...@my-deja.com
Gene Ward Smith
>I drew the line when MT tried this rough stuff with me, and we have never
>seen each other since - even though I have always been willing to meet
>him again. Only as a peer.
How else can anyone meet anyone?
>Also recall Pinnochio's "Pleasure Island" - fun-loving boys turning into
>slave donkeys?
I'll keep a weather eye out for old Stromboli.
--
Gene Ward Smith
Rejajoy
You remind me of some of those people I saw when I took the est
training (Werner Erhard Seminar Training, 1979). By the way, you
took the est training too so you KNOW how the trainer was trying
to get our egos upset because the ego is the only part of us
that WILL ever take offense.
Our Souls KNOW better. ;-)
When you take offense at anything another does, you are
misperceiving yourself and him. When you come from your own
innocence, you will 'see' in your Brother ONLY his innocence and
yours.
Don't we all keep trying to change the curtain of reality when
all we have to do is pull it back. What IS, IS. And what ISN'T,
ISN'T. Remember? This reminds me of His message, "Nothing Real
can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists."
The following is something I wrote on the
http://www.egroups.com/group/JCIM
discussion group regarding more of my thoughts on spiritual
communities.
=========================================
In a message dated 8/1/2000 3:41:44 PM Central Daylight Time,
rrot...@uswest.net writes:
[Withdrawal is properly employed in the service of withdrawing
from the meaningless. It is NOT a device for escape, but for
consolidation. There IS only one mind.] JCIM
Dearest Ryan and All,
It's interesting that you chose THIS quote because it's the
exact quote I had come upon and wanted to use to illustrate the
phenomena of spiritual communities and alternative life-styles.
Recently, I spent some time at the lake we go to. Tom and I both
had some time to read portions of "The Nag Hammadi Library" by
James M. Robinson (which is the translation of the Gnostic
scriptures found in Egypt in 1945, and includes the Gospel of
Thomas).
The author of this translation writes that "the focus that
brought the collection (of papyrus manuscripts) together is an
estrangement from the mass of humanity, an affinity to an ideal
order that completely transcends life as we know it, and a life-
style radically other than common practice. This life-style
involved giving up all the goods that people usually desire and
longing for an ultimate liberation.
"It is not an aggressive revolution that is intended, but rather
a withdrawal from involvement in the contamination that destroys
clarity of vision".
When I read this, I saw the connection between what Jesus is
saying here regarding "withdrawing from the meaningless" and the
EA community, which I believe is expressing a "withdrawal from
involvement in the contamination that destroys clarity of
vision".
It seems as though all through history there have been those
who "have an affinity for an ideal order" and "live a life-style
radically other than common practice". The author points out
that even "Jesus called for a full reversal of values,
advocating the end of the world as we have known it and its
replacement by a quite new, utopian kind of life in which the
ideal would be real."
However, when the ego doesn't get "agreement", it can get quite
vicious and attack these groups as satanic and malevolent. "He
[Jesus] took a stand quite independent of the authorities of the
day...and did not last very long before they eliminated him".
How incredible it is that certain ONES have the courage to
say "I will not live a lie" no matter what!
Thanks for listening. ;-)
With love,
vals...@my-deja.com
"I'll keep a weather eye out for old Stromboli."
Wrong island, dear brother. If you were a romantic you would recall that
this was the island that Ingrid (Bergman) fell in love with Roberto
(Rosselini), the movie director.
"Pleasure" Island, like Emerald City, Wisconsin, is "a horse of a
different color"!
Always happy to be of service.
In love, peace, and truth,
Val
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Sharon
Hi Val...
vals...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> CIMS people, please note and take what is being said here into account.
> It is not an exaggeration.
>
> I drew the line when MT tried this rough stuff with me, and we have never
> seen each other since - even though I have always been willing to meet
> him again. Only as a peer.
Really? Who were "you" in YOUR latest worldly drama, MT or Val? The
victim or the victimizer this time?
Has it worked for you? If it has, then, good for you! If it hasn't,
then choose once again. It's up to you.
>
> Bullies are bullies. And cult-guru trips are full of them. And
> "spiritual ostriches" can see or fly!
What bullies? What cult? It is your own mind that you are seeing....
You get whatever you want Val! When will you realize that this, then
you can go Home.
>
> Also recall Pinnochio's "Pleasure Island" - fun-loving boys turning into
> slave donkeys?
>
> Take heed. Take care. Be real.
I can only be Real, for that is what I Am.
Love,
Sharon
vals...@my-deja.com
into CIMS and stuff - you've become spiritually myopic. Meaning that you
are having a great deal of difficulty discerning between reality and
"current reality" within the dream.
As you know, I have quite a background in est and what came to be known
in the world as Werner Erhard and Associates, and in fact spent a
personal fortune "doing" just about all their major trainings and
workshops between 1975 and 1983, got to know Werner personally, only to
discover that est and its empire was nothing but a cult. Impressive
while it lasted, but clearly a cult - which has been documented in our
culture ad nauseum now - ending in disgrace when Werner literally had to
leave North America in disgrace when his family testified to his constant
abuse, and a daughter openly shared over 60 Minutes that Werner had
consensual sex with her.
Today Werner is in exile (mostly in Russia and Germany), unable to return
to the USA because the IRS will nab him the moment that he sets ground in
his home country for long-standing income tax evasion. A sad story, but
a very familiar one. All of which tends to invalidate the model, and
Werner in particular - genius and charmer though he was for so many
people world-wide.
Regarding the current EA scene, Reja, do take another close look at what
Holy Smoke is posting - the latest being Number 18 - and "let it in"
without pre-judgment. It happen to be accurate, and not unlike how so
many other cult-guru trips deteriorated into.
In short, dear, do open your eyes ALL THE WAY. Or, better still, ask the
Holy Spirit to help you "see" the EA scene as HE sees it. And if you do,
perhaps what will come back to you will be very much like what David
Hoffmeister wrote about in that "cult-thinking" article, which is totally
based on Course principles.
Up to you.
In love, peace, and truth,
Val
vals...@my-deja.com
Truth. Could it be because their head is in a rather strange place?
In love and peace,
Val
Amminadab
> Reja dear, you know I love you. But recently - since you got diverted
> into CIMS and stuff - you've become spiritually myopic.
Wow, that's quite the judgment on a beautiful, clear mind. My judgment of
her differs from yours.
>
> As you know, I have quite a background in est and what came to be known
> in the world as Werner Erhard and Associates, and in fact spent a
> personal fortune "doing" just about all their major trainings and
> workshops between 1975 and 1983, got to know Werner personally, only to
> discover that est and its empire was nothing but a cult.
You seem to have an attraction to cults..... have you examined the basis for
your attraction?
>
> Today Werner is in exile (mostly in Russia and Germany), unable to return
> to the USA because the IRS will nab him the moment that he sets ground in
> his home country for long-standing income tax evasion. A sad story, but
> a very familiar one. All of which tends to invalidate the model, and
> Werner in particular - genius and charmer though he was for so many
> people world-wide.
Does the fact that Jesus was "nabbed" by the Sanhedrin invalidate His model?
Your arguments against make no sense.
>
> Regarding the current EA scene, Reja, do take another close look at what
> Holy Smoke is posting - the latest being Number 18 - and "let it in"
> without pre-judgment. It happen to be accurate, and not unlike how so
> many other cult-guru trips deteriorated into.
Holy Smoke posts a lot of anonymous, unsupported allegations. Give us some
more reasons to distrust our brothers.
>
> In short, dear, do open your eyes ALL THE WAY. Or, better still, ask the
> Holy Spirit to help you "see" the EA scene as HE sees it.
If she does that, will she find EA to be the guilty victimizers that you do?
Doesn't sound like the Holy Spirit at all.
>
> In love, peace, and truth,
>
There is no love, no peace, and no truth in your constant allegations.
Why not let go of your grievances, they do not serve you.
Amminadab
[Miracles are teaching devices for demonstrating that it is more blessed to
give than to receive. They simultaneously increase the strength of the giver
and supply strength to the receiver.] JCIM
Sharon
other illusions that we believe that we are.
Only the names we give them vary; but the Truth still waits beyond them
when you are ready to let go of your belief of them.
If you want to believe that there is such a thing as "spiritual
ostriches" then that is what they will be to you. Whatever truth you
give to it, you will receive in return.
This is YOUR block to Truth Val, and no one elses.
I may give my "block's to Truth" a different name, but the result is the
same. The problem and the Solution is always within Myself.
Like I said; whenever you realize that the problem is not within the
world, endeavor, ken, and MT; then you will be free to make a decision
for only Peace and then you will see yourself in Heaven; where you never
left.
There is nothing in this world, literally, that can do this for you but
Yourself
I love you,
Sharon
vals...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> "Spiritual ostriches" have real difficulty "seeing" or "feeling" the
> Truth. Could it be because their head is in a rather strange place?
>
> In love and peace,
>
> Val
>
vals...@my-deja.com
All the rest, I'm afraid, is the EA party line - a spiritual bypass - a
product of level confusion or delusion.
But love is ALWAYS real.
I join you there.
In love and peace,
Val
Sharon
vals...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> Thank you for the love, Sharon.
>
> All the rest, I'm afraid, is the EA party line - a spiritual bypass - a
> product of level confusion or delusion.
I haven't learned this from EA; it is something that I have always
known, just like you and everyone else that walks this earth.
>
> But love is ALWAYS real.
hmmmm... seems that there is a contradiction there .... let's see,
love is ALWAYS real; expect when it is coming from Endeavor Academy? Is
this what you are teaching?
Remember, you will always get what you give.
>
> I join you there.
I know... !
>
> In love and peace,
>
> Val
Love,
Sharon
ellen
>[snip]
>and in fact spent a personal fortune
> "doing" just about all their major
> trainings and workshops between 1975
> and 1983, got to know Werner
> personally, only to discover that est and
> its empire was nothing but a cult.
> cult -
>Regarding the current EA scene, Reja,
> do take another close look at what Holy
> Smoke is posting - the latest being
> Number 18 - and "let it in" without
> pre-judgment. It happen to be accurate,
> and not unlike how so many other
> cult-guru trips deteriorated into.
Why don't you just forgive yourself for your weakness for cults?
peace, ellen ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Love waits on welcome, not on time ACIM
Richard A. Thayer
Why don't you just do it!
Forgiveness 1, 2, 3.
Why doesn't anybody just "do" whatever we tell them?
God knows I've tried hard enough with Amminidab! Much laughter.
Here's my list which I sometimes remember ( til I get to reading
of all the shenanigans in here and lose it once again )
WHY DOES SOMEBODY NOT JUST DO WHAT WE TELL THEM
1) they're not ready
2) we don't really understand what we told them to do
3) they see some purpose or have chosen a path thru the process
of experience
4) it's ok what they're doing-- we've got it wrong
5) they ARE in process
6) so are we. We were meant to intersect with them
and their struggle.
Now if *I* could only keep my list which is balanced nicely
between myself and them, in mind......
LINDA
