Psychopaths?
Ted D. Biggs
psychopaths/psychotics fit into the equation? Is it possible for an
insane person to be enlightened?
From everything I've read, it is posited that *everyone* is capable of
enlightenment. But how on earth can a paranoid schizophrenic, or, better
yet, someone with multiple personality disorder, possibly eliminate
their ego-self?
BTW. This was another one that a non-Buddhist asked me when I was
discussing Buddhism in general. My answer was basically a shrug.
-----------------------------------------
Ted D. Biggs
"A person who is nice to you, but rude to
the waiter, is not a nice person."
- Dave Barry
tbi...@blah.flash.net
(Remove blah. to send/reply)
----------------------------------------
tjn
>
> At the risk of putting Ali to sleep again, where do
> psychopaths/psychotics fit into the equation? Is it possible for an
> insane person to be enlightened?
>
> From everything I've read, it is posited that *everyone* is capable of
> enlightenment. But how on earth can a paranoid schizophrenic, or, better
> yet, someone with multiple personality disorder, possibly eliminate
> their ego-self?
>
> BTW. This was another one that a non-Buddhist asked me when I was
> discussing Buddhism in general. My answer was basically a shrug.
someone who needs therapy should get therapy. Buddhism is not therapy.
Samuel
Ted D. Biggs wrote:
> At the risk of putting Ali to sleep again, where do
> psychopaths/psychotics fit into the equation? Is it possible for an
> insane person to be enlightened?
>
> From everything I've read, it is posited that *everyone* is capable of
> enlightenment. But how on earth can a paranoid schizophrenic, or, better
> yet, someone with multiple personality disorder, possibly eliminate
> their ego-self?
>
> BTW. This was another one that a non-Buddhist asked me when I was
> discussing Buddhism in general. My answer was basically a shrug.
>
> -----------------------------------------
> Ted D. Biggs
>
> "A person who is nice to you, but rude to
> the waiter, is not a nice person."
> - Dave Barry
>
> tbi...@blah.flash.net
> (Remove blah. to send/reply)
> ----------------------------------------
Psychopath may be hopeless to reach enlightment this life time.
So tough luck for these people.
But there is always hope for these people if they are not psycopath
in their next life time.
Sam
Ned Ludd
writes:
Ted asked:
> At the risk of putting Ali to sleep again, where do
> psychopaths/psychotics fit into the equation? Is it possible for
> an insane person to be enlightened?
> From everything I've read, it is posited that *everyone* is capable
> of enlightenment. But how on earth can a paranoid schizophrenic, or,
> better yet, someone with multiple personality disorder, possibly
> eliminate their ego-self?
> BTW. This was another one that a non-Buddhist asked me when I was
> discussing Buddhism in general. My answer was basically a shrug.
Toshu:
>someone who needs therapy should get therapy. Buddhism is not therapy.
>
There's got be examples of Buddha helping crazy people. Who on
earth needs help more than someone with multiple personalities in
understanding the emptiness of self? Paranoia and schizophrenia
too: Paranoia concentrates on self as the center of attacks from
the outside world, and schizophrenia (among other things) takes the
self on roller coaster rides of ecstasy and despair. Depression,
in its way, also involves the self and a perverse relation to self,
somewhat the opposite of paranoia and schizophrenia in that the self
is thrown away and ignored, and not even cared about or recognized
as just as valid an 'empty dharma' as all the other things of the
world.
Fine with the professional therapy and seeing a doctor and all, but
if you're still nuts after all the doctoring, I don't think you just
say Buddhism is off limits or start posting "Crazies Need Not Apply"
signs on the zendos. And no, before you start telling me horror
stories about crazy people you've had to deal with over the years,
I'm not saying that special measures should be taken or zendos
should ever claim to be therapy centers.
Buddhism and especially Zen is a medicine for helping people who
are carrying a lot of baggage learn to stop carrying anything that
isn't essential. Who more than the people with the problems listed
above needs this kind of medicine?
Ned
Ali Hassan
Samuel <pet...@tnetnz.com> wrote in message
news:36C0DBD8...@tnetnz.com...
>
>Ted D. Biggs wrote:
>
>> At the risk of putting Ali to sleep again, where do
>> psychopaths/psychotics fit into the equation? Is it possible for an
>> insane person to be enlightened?
>>
>> From everything I've read, it is posited that *everyone* is capable of
>> enlightenment. But how on earth can a paranoid schizophrenic, or, better
>> yet, someone with multiple personality disorder, possibly eliminate
>> their ego-self?
>>
>> BTW. This was another one that a non-Buddhist asked me when I was
>> discussing Buddhism in general. My answer was basically a shrug.
>>
>> ----------------------------------------
>
>Psychopath may be hopeless to reach enlightment this life time.
>So tough luck for these people.
>
>But there is always hope for these people if they are not psycopath
>in their next life time.
>
>Sam
>
Hah, hah, hah. Rotsa ruck sez Sam and Toshu. To the awakened, all the rest
are insane.....and that means you. Again, it's just a gradience. Psychopath,
split personality, man on the street. All wacko. All asleep. Different
dreams, is all. Enjoy your burgers, boys. It's your life.
tjn
>
> In <36BF8FE9...@worldnet.att.net> tjn <ryu...@worldnet.att.net>
> writes:
>
> Ted asked:
> > psychopaths/psychotics fit into the equation? Is it possible for
> > an insane person to be enlightened?
> > From everything I've read, it is posited that *everyone* is capable
> > of enlightenment. But how on earth can a paranoid schizophrenic, or,
> > better yet, someone with multiple personality disorder, possibly
> > eliminate their ego-self?
> > BTW. This was another one that a non-Buddhist asked me when I was
> > discussing Buddhism in general. My answer was basically a shrug.
>
> >someone who needs therapy should get therapy. Buddhism is not therapy.
> >
>
> There's got be examples of Buddha helping crazy people.
certainly. Angulimala for one? you know, the "serial killer" who wore
victims fingers? he attained arahantship. still someone who needs
therapy should get therapy. Buddhism is not therapy. also while the
Buddha was particularly skillful as a teacher there are good examples
even now. the best teachers know when there is an opportunity to help
directly and when not to do anything but refer a person to therapy.
i know of some people with schizophrenia who did very well with zazen. i
know of people with less serious problems who did not do as well. it is
impossible to generalize since it depends so much on conditions. the key
is how to tell who needs therapy and who needs zazen. who is deciding?
i don't see Zen as medicine. it is rather different in that there is no
need for a "diagnosis" or a "treatment plan". it is after all religious.
(especially in the personal if not civic and institutional sense in this
case.) helping a person do better with a practice like zazen would
require a lot of time, keen observation (because of various physical
cues), considerable tact, and great flexibility. it also cannot be
pushed too hard. encouraged but not pushed.
tjn
>
> Samuel <pet...@tnetnz.com> wrote in message
> news:36C0DBD8...@tnetnz.com...
> >
> >Ted D. Biggs wrote:
> >
> >> psychopaths/psychotics fit into the equation? Is it possible for an
> >> insane person to be enlightened?
> >>
> >> From everything I've read, it is posited that *everyone* is capable of
> >> enlightenment. But how on earth can a paranoid schizophrenic, or, better
> >> yet, someone with multiple personality disorder, possibly eliminate
> >> their ego-self?
> >>
> >> BTW. This was another one that a non-Buddhist asked me when I was
> >> discussing Buddhism in general. My answer was basically a shrug.
> >>
>
> >
> >Psychopath may be hopeless to reach enlightment this life time.
> >So tough luck for these people.
> >
> >But there is always hope for these people if they are not psycopath
> >in their next life time.
> >
> >Sam
> >
> Hah, hah, hah. Rotsa ruck sez Sam and Toshu.
not quite. i said if you need therapy do therapy and if you need
Buddhism do Buddhism. i didn't specify any criteria for making the
choice. my apologies for creating the misunderstanding. i assumed that
another interpretation would be assumed.
Brer Rabbit
tjn wrote in message <36BFCD13...@worldnet.att.net>...
>Ned Ludd wrote:
>>
>> In <36BF8FE9...@worldnet.att.net> tjn <ryu...@worldnet.att.net>
>> writes:
>>
>> Ted asked:
>> > psychopaths/psychotics fit into the equation? Is it possible for
>> > an insane person to be enlightened?
>> > From everything I've read, it is posited that *everyone* is capable
>> > of enlightenment. But how on earth can a paranoid schizophrenic, or,
>> > better yet, someone with multiple personality disorder, possibly
>> > eliminate their ego-self?
>> > BTW. This was another one that a non-Buddhist asked me when I was
>> > discussing Buddhism in general. My answer was basically a shrug.
>>
>> >someone who needs therapy should get therapy. Buddhism is not therapy.
>> >
>>
>> There's got be examples of Buddha helping crazy people.
>
>certainly. Angulimala for one? you know, the "serial killer" who wore
>victims fingers? he attained arahantship. still someone who needs
>therapy should get therapy. Buddhism is not therapy. also while the
>Buddha was particularly skillful as a teacher there are good examples
>even now. the best teachers know when there is an opportunity to help
>directly and when not to do anything but refer a person to therapy.
>
>i know of some people with schizophrenia who did very well with zazen. i
>know of people with less serious problems who did not do as well. it is
>impossible to generalize since it depends so much on conditions. the key
>is how to tell who needs therapy and who needs zazen. who is deciding?
>
>i don't see Zen as medicine. it is rather different in that there is no
>need for a "diagnosis" or a "treatment plan". it is after all religious.
>(especially in the personal if not civic and institutional sense in this
>case.) helping a person do better with a practice like zazen would
>require a lot of time, keen observation (because of various physical
>cues), considerable tact, and great flexibility. it also cannot be
>pushed too hard. encouraged but not pushed.
Brer Rabbit sez, " after a cople of yurs over in dis zen hole, da company of
dees psychos and schizos start to sound purty good," sez he!
BR
saul_ha...@my-dejanews.com
tbi...@flash.net wrote:
> From everything I've read, it is posited that *everyone* is capable of
> enlightenment. But how on earth can a paranoid schizophrenic, or, better
> yet, someone with multiple personality disorder, possibly eliminate
> their ego-self?
>
> BTW. This was another one that a non-Buddhist asked me when I was
> discussing Buddhism in general. My answer was basically a shrug.
>
Two apologies, firstly this isn't an answer and secondly I haven't got a book
to hand to quote from . However, there is a lovely story in the book
"Improvisation and the Theatre" by Keith Johnstone (brilliant book btw).
It involves a girl who was being looked after in a garden by teacher/nurse
after just seeing god. The nurse picked a flower for the girl (who was
considered mad) and said "Look at this beautiful flower Betty".
"All the flowers are beautiful", smiled Betty.
"Ah, but this one is particularly beautiful" said the nurse.
Betty then rolled around the floor screaming "Can't you see? Can't you see?"
Johnstone said that this mad girl opened his eyes to the violent way we
categorise and enforce our views on others and goes on to show other ways our
education and conditioning has damaged us. Its mistaken to write people off
as simply being "nuts". If Johnstone had done that he would have lossed out
on all that great stuff.
Another story from a friend who works in a shelter for schizophrenics made me
smile. Apparently, most of the patients who visit are quite nervous and scared
of the "mad" people.
> -----------------------------------------
> Ted D. Biggs
>
> "A person who is nice to you, but rude to
> the waiter, is not a nice person."
> - Dave Barry
I noticed a friend of a friend who was like that when we had a meal out. A few
weeks later he was actually punched by a waiter.
Saul
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Don James
> psychopaths/psychotics fit into the equation? Is it possible for an
> insane person to be enlightened?
>
> enlightenment. But how on earth can a paranoid schizophrenic, or, better
> yet, someone with multiple personality disorder, possibly eliminate
> their ego-self?
>
> BTW. This was another one that a non-Buddhist asked me when I was
> discussing Buddhism in general. My answer was basically a shrug.
>
> Ted D. Biggs
>
> "A person who is nice to you, but rude to
> the waiter, is not a nice person."
> - Dave Barry
>
valve for the inner stresses of the rest of us. They are the weak ones
amongst us. Our whole world is somewhat crazy with its' selfishness and
competitivity, exploitation, warring, on and on, and this can tend to
break down a weak, sensitive soul. The rest of us just manage to "contain"
our craziness. Our culture condones in up to certain dangerous levels. I
personally know of people who have been branded psychotic and have attained
self-realization. Of course, dangerous levels of psychosis have to be
calmed down to safe levels. A person has to be somewhat reasonable to be able
to begin to study Buddhism, etc.
See the most honered posters at:
http://www.ntr.net/~oak/altzen/altzen.html
Don James
ryu...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> Ted D. Biggs wrote:
> >
> > At the risk of putting Ali to sleep again, where do
> > psychopaths/psychotics fit into the equation? Is it possible for an
> > insane person to be enlightened?
> >
> > From everything I've read, it is posited that *everyone* is capable of
> > enlightenment. But how on earth can a paranoid schizophrenic, or, better
> > yet, someone with multiple personality disorder, possibly eliminate
> > their ego-self?
> >
> > BTW. This was another one that a non-Buddhist asked me when I was
> > discussing Buddhism in general. My answer was basically a shrug.
>
>
life story of Richard Alpert aka Ram Dass. Therapy is a game just like
the whole criminal justice system is.
Don James
"Brer Rabbit" <po...@tarbaby.com> wrote:
>
> tjn wrote in message <36BFCD13...@worldnet.att.net>...
> >Ned Ludd wrote:
> >>
> >> In <36BF8FE9...@worldnet.att.net> tjn <ryu...@worldnet.att.net>
> >> writes:
> >>
> >> Ted asked:
> >> > psychopaths/psychotics fit into the equation? Is it possible for
> >> > an insane person to be enlightened?
> >> > From everything I've read, it is posited that *everyone* is capable
> >> > of enlightenment. But how on earth can a paranoid schizophrenic, or,
> >> > better yet, someone with multiple personality disorder, possibly
> >> > eliminate their ego-self?
> >> > BTW. This was another one that a non-Buddhist asked me when I was
> >> > discussing Buddhism in general. My answer was basically a shrug.
> >>
> >> >someone who needs therapy should get therapy. Buddhism is not therapy.
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >certainly. Angulimala for one? you know, the "serial killer" who wore
> >victims fingers? he attained arahantship. still someone who needs
> >therapy should get therapy. Buddhism is not therapy. also while the
> >Buddha was particularly skillful as a teacher there are good examples
> >even now. the best teachers know when there is an opportunity to help
> >directly and when not to do anything but refer a person to therapy.
> >
> >i know of some people with schizophrenia who did very well with zazen. i
> >know of people with less serious problems who did not do as well. it is
> >impossible to generalize since it depends so much on conditions. the key
> >is how to tell who needs therapy and who needs zazen. who is deciding?
> >
> >i don't see Zen as medicine. it is rather different in that there is no
> >need for a "diagnosis" or a "treatment plan". it is after all religious.
> >(especially in the personal if not civic and institutional sense in this
> >case.) helping a person do better with a practice like zazen would
> >require a lot of time, keen observation (because of various physical
> >cues), considerable tact, and great flexibility. it also cannot be
> >pushed too hard. encouraged but not pushed.
>
> Brer Rabbit sez, " after a cople of yurs over in dis zen hole, da company of
> dees psychos and schizos start to sound purty good," sez he!
>
> BR
>
>
a house, then made him tear it down and re-build it, all the time while
scolding him relentlessly and barely feeding him for years. Was this
crazy? Was it abuse? Miarepa became a spiritual giant.
Dirk Bruere
>
> At the risk of putting Ali to sleep again, where do
> psychopaths/psychotics fit into the equation? Is it possible for an
> insane person to be enlightened?
>
case, though, it is taken to an extreme.
A longer road, perhaps, on average.
Gassho
Dirk
Deborah McCarter
wrote:
>In article <36BF8EAC...@flash.net>,
> tbi...@flash.net wrote:
>> From everything I've read, it is posited that *everyone* is capable of
>> enlightenment. But how on earth can a paranoid schizophrenic, or, better
>> yet, someone with multiple personality disorder, possibly eliminate
>> their ego-self?
>>
>> BTW. This was another one that a non-Buddhist asked me when I was
>> discussing Buddhism in general. My answer was basically a shrug.
>>
>
>Two apologies, firstly this isn't an answer and secondly I haven't got a book
>to hand to quote from . However, there is a lovely story in the book
>"Improvisation and the Theatre" by Keith Johnstone (brilliant book btw).
>
>It involves a girl who was being looked after in a garden by teacher/nurse
>after just seeing god. The nurse picked a flower for the girl (who was
>considered mad) and said "Look at this beautiful flower Betty".
>
>"All the flowers are beautiful", smiled Betty.
>"Ah, but this one is particularly beautiful" said the nurse.
>Betty then rolled around the floor screaming "Can't you see? Can't you see?"
>
>Johnstone said that this mad girl opened his eyes to the violent way we
>categorise and enforce our views on others and goes on to show other ways our
>education and conditioning has damaged us. Its mistaken to write people off
>as simply being "nuts". If Johnstone had done that he would have lossed out
>on all that great stuff.
>
>Another story from a friend who works in a shelter for schizophrenics made me
>smile. Apparently, most of the patients who visit are quite nervous and scared
>of the "mad" people.
>
>Saul
Nice post, Saul !
Deb
Sphere
>
> At the risk of putting Ali to sleep again, where do
> psychopaths/psychotics fit into the equation? Is it possible for an
> insane person to be enlightened?
>
> enlightenment. But how on earth can a paranoid schizophrenic, or, better
> yet, someone with multiple personality disorder, possibly eliminate
> their ego-self?
>
> BTW. This was another one that a non-Buddhist asked me when I was
> discussing Buddhism in general. My answer was basically a shrug.
>
Schizophrenia is a dissociative disorder, MPD is
a protective defense mechanism. My basic answer
in both cases is that you have to be somebody
before you can become nobody.
I don't think the Dharma is the right medicine
for starving people either -- food is. Don't
solve the wrong problem.
--
Sphere.
-------
Posting Hinayana ideas to a public forum makes you a Mahayanist.
-- jiri / luck
(I used to get paid for making writing fit, many years ago.)
-- luck
tjn
> > >
> > > At the risk of putting Ali to sleep again, where do
> > > psychopaths/psychotics fit into the equation? Is it possible for an
> > > insane person to be enlightened?
> > >
> > > From everything I've read, it is posited that *everyone* is capable of
> > > enlightenment. But how on earth can a paranoid schizophrenic, or, better
> > > yet, someone with multiple personality disorder, possibly eliminate
> > > their ego-self?
> > >
> > > BTW. This was another one that a non-Buddhist asked me when I was
> > > discussing Buddhism in general. My answer was basically a shrug.
> >
> >
> life story of Richard Alpert aka Ram Dass. Therapy is a game just like
> the whole criminal justice system is.
therapy is too calculating to be always appropriate.
tjn
>
> Ned Ludd <ned...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:79ofl6$s...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com...
>
> >>someone who needs therapy should get therapy. Buddhism is not therapy.
>
i don't think so, not in the terms in which we speak of therapy. most
people engaging in therapy have an idea of what they think is wrong and
how they want to improve. it is rather planned and calculated. personal
religious practice generally starts out that way but may need to broaden
and be much more open than anything that is a mere treatment plan.
Ali Hassan
Ned Ludd <ned...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:79ofl6$s...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com...
>In <36BF8FE9...@worldnet.att.net> tjn <ryu...@worldnet.att.net>
>writes:
>
>Ted asked:
>> At the risk of putting Ali to sleep again,
>Toshu:
>>someone who needs therapy should get therapy. Buddhism is not therapy.
Yes it is, or it was supposed to be.
>
> There's got be examples of Buddha helping crazy people. Who on
> earth needs help more than someone with multiple personalities in
> understanding the emptiness of self? Paranoia and schizophrenia
> too: Paranoia concentrates on self as the center of attacks from
> the outside world, and schizophrenia (among other things) takes the
> self on roller coaster rides of ecstasy and despair. Depression,
> in its way, also involves the self and a perverse relation to self,
> somewhat the opposite of paranoia and schizophrenia in that the self
> is thrown away and ignored, and not even cared about or recognized
> as just as valid an 'empty dharma' as all the other things of the
> world.
>
> Fine with the professional therapy and seeing a doctor and all, but
> if you're still nuts after all the doctoring, I don't think you just
> say Buddhism is off limits or start posting "Crazies Need Not Apply"
> signs on the zendos. And no, before you start telling me horror
> stories about crazy people you've had to deal with over the years,
> I'm not saying that special measures should be taken or zendos
> should ever claim to be therapy centers.
>
> Buddhism and especially Zen is a medicine for helping people who
> are carrying a lot of baggage learn to stop carrying anything that
> isn't essential. Who more than the people with the problems listed
> above needs this kind of medicine?
>
> Ned
For your compassion, I, R.P. McMurphy, grant you alone absolution. Ed
McMahon will be on your doorstep with the envelope.The rest of these loonies
can just stay the hell here.
Don James
ryu...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> Don James wrote:
> >
> > In article <36BF8FE9...@worldnet.att.net>,
> > ryu...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> > > Ted D. Biggs wrote:
> > > >
> > > > At the risk of putting Ali to sleep again, where do
> > > > psychopaths/psychotics fit into the equation? Is it possible for an
> > > > insane person to be enlightened?
> > > >
> > > > From everything I've read, it is posited that *everyone* is capable of
> > > > enlightenment. But how on earth can a paranoid schizophrenic, or, better
> > > > yet, someone with multiple personality disorder, possibly eliminate
> > > > their ego-self?
> > > >
> > > > BTW. This was another one that a non-Buddhist asked me when I was
> > > > discussing Buddhism in general. My answer was basically a shrug.
> > >
> > >
> > life story of Richard Alpert aka Ram Dass. Therapy is a game just like
> > the whole criminal justice system is.
>
> therapy is too calculating to be always appropriate.
Don: also, therapy will only help you to adjust to the deluded world.
It won't save you. A man without a mind may be in a better position to
take the real help of a teacher. The difference between madness and
enlightenment may be only a matter of who you are doing it for. If you
are doing it for everyone, then you are a bodhisattva.
See the most honered posters at:
http://www.ntr.net/~oak/altzen/altzen.html
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Ali Hassan
tjn <ryu...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:36C06F2B...@worldnet.att.net...
>Ali Hassan wrote:
>>
>> Ned Ludd <ned...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>> news:79ofl6$s...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com...
>> >In <36BF8FE9...@worldnet.att.net> tjn <ryu...@worldnet.att.net>
>> >writes:
>> >
>> >Ted asked:
>>
>> >>someone who needs therapy should get therapy. Buddhism is not therapy.
>>
>
>people engaging in therapy have an idea of what they think is wrong and
>how they want to improve. it is rather planned and calculated. personal
>religious practice generally starts out that way but may need to broaden
>and be much more open than anything that is a mere treatment plan.
Toshu you just reaffirmed my point...with no overt signs of psychosis,
either
(p.s.-I still like you even if you are stark, raving bonkers....and you are,
you know.)
piet...@my-dejanews.com
it seems to be a truism that 'enlightenment' (of whatever degree)
is often preceded by a phase that appears like 'madness'.
(which may or may not go away)
how else did the Shakers and Quakers get their name, eh?
the whole 'Spiritual Emergency' movement was created to recognize this.
it is our biological heritage from the ancient pre-historical
age of shamanism.
Meher Baba has a valuable essay distinguishing madness from
enlightenment in the foreword to the book 'The Wayfarers'.
The 'Mast' (god-intoxicated) of India are considered enlightened by
the populace, but would definitely by institutionalized in the West.
'insanity' as a side-effect of religious revivals has also been
noted in the U.S. during the 'Great Awakening' phase of the 1840's (?)
admissions to Sanatoriums rose dramatically (source was a book on
history of Gospel music whose title i forget now)
interesting references:
'Madness and Modernism' - Dr. Louis Sass
describes schizophrenia as an imperfectly emerging 'enhancement' to
the evolution of consciousness
'Achilles in Vietnam'
the warrior's 'beserker' transformation, and its parallels to
religious kundalini transformations
'The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind'
Jaynes, religious experience of gods as 'hearing voices' from the
other hemisphere
'The Wayfarers - Meher Baba's work with the Masts'
an experience of pathological depersonalization disorder thru meditation:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1756/kunpsych.txt
Spiritual Emergence or Psychosis? by Selene Vega:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1756/spirpsy.txt
Charles Manson's trial testimony:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1756/manson.htm
In article <36c02...@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>,
remove x to reply <art...@kbnet.co.uk> wrote:
> Ted D. Biggs wrote:
> >
> > At the risk of putting Ali to sleep again, where do
> > psychopaths/psychotics fit into the equation? Is it possible for an
> > insane person to be enlightened?
> >
>
> They are the suffer from the same problems most people do. In their
> case, though, it is taken to an extreme.
>
> A longer road, perhaps, on average.
>
> Gassho
> Dirk
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
piet...@my-dejanews.com
> victims fingers? he attained arahantship.
yep, and Kisa Gotami, crazy with grief.
> i know of some people with schizophrenia who did very well with zazen. i
> know of people with less serious problems who did not do as well.
fwiw, if i remember, the book 'Are You Getting Enlightened,
Or Losing Your Mind?'
describes one case where a schizophrenic maintained quite well
for about 10 years on meditation alone. Then had a relapse and
required medication. The author Dr.'s conclusion was that meditation
alone probably was not a good idea, should have been combined with some
medication.
cheers
tjn
>
> tjn <ryu...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:36C06F2B...@worldnet.att.net...
> >Ali Hassan wrote:
> >>
> >> Ned Ludd <ned...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> >> news:79ofl6$s...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com...
> >> >In <36BF8FE9...@worldnet.att.net> tjn <ryu...@worldnet.att.net>
> >> >writes:
> >> >
> >> >Ted asked:
> >>
> >> >>someone who needs therapy should get therapy. Buddhism is not therapy.
> >>
> >> Yes it is, or it was supposed to be.
> >
> >i don't think so, not in the terms in which we speak of therapy. most
> >people engaging in therapy have an idea of what they think is wrong and
> >how they want to improve. it is rather planned and calculated. personal
> >religious practice generally starts out that way but may need to broaden
> >and be much more open than anything that is a mere treatment plan.
>
> Toshu you just reaffirmed my point...with no overt signs of psychosis,
> either
HA!
> (p.s.-I still like you even if you are stark, raving bonkers....and you are,
> you know.)
HA!
Buddha
Don James wrote in message <79pgj4$6m6$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <79oooc$8...@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
> "Brer Rabbit" <po...@tarbaby.com> wrote:
>>
>> tjn wrote in message <36BFCD13...@worldnet.att.net>...
>> >Ned Ludd wrote:
>> >>
>> >> writes:
>> >>
>> >> Ted asked:
>> >> > psychopaths/psychotics fit into the equation? Is it possible for
>> >> > an insane person to be enlightened?
>> >> > of enlightenment. But how on earth can a paranoid schizophrenic, or,
>> >> > better yet, someone with multiple personality disorder, possibly
>> >> > eliminate their ego-self?
>> >> > BTW. This was another one that a non-Buddhist asked me when I was
>> >> > discussing Buddhism in general. My answer was basically a shrug.
>> >>
>> >> >someone who needs therapy should get therapy. Buddhism is not
therapy.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >certainly. Angulimala for one? you know, the "serial killer" who wore
>> >therapy should get therapy. Buddhism is not therapy. also while the
>> >Buddha was particularly skillful as a teacher there are good examples
>> >even now. the best teachers know when there is an opportunity to help
>> >directly and when not to do anything but refer a person to therapy.
>> >
>> >impossible to generalize since it depends so much on conditions. the key
>> >is how to tell who needs therapy and who needs zazen. who is deciding?
>> >
>> >i don't see Zen as medicine. it is rather different in that there is no
>> >need for a "diagnosis" or a "treatment plan". it is after all religious.
>> >(especially in the personal if not civic and institutional sense in this
>> >case.) helping a person do better with a practice like zazen would
>> >require a lot of time, keen observation (because of various physical
>> >cues), considerable tact, and great flexibility. it also cannot be
>> >pushed too hard. encouraged but not pushed.
>>
>> Brer Rabbit sez, " after a cople of yurs over in dis zen hole, da company
of
>> dees psychos and schizos start to sound purty good," sez he!
>>
>> BR
>>
>>
>Don: there is the story of Milarepa, who's teacher Marpa made him build
>a house, then made him tear it down and re-build it, all the time while
>scolding him relentlessly and barely feeding him for years. Was this
>crazy? Was it abuse? Miarepa became a spiritual giant.
>
Don't be a tease, tell us the story!
>See the most honered posters at:
>http://www.ntr.net/~oak/altzen/altzen.html
>
Don James
> >>
> >>
> >Don: there is the story of Milarepa, who's teacher Marpa made him build
> >a house, then made him tear it down and re-build it, all the time while
> >scolding him relentlessly and barely feeding him for years. Was this
> >crazy? Was it abuse? Miarepa became a spiritual giant.
> >
>
> Don't be a tease, tell us the story!
>
Don: hey bro, yer back! Well I ain't much of a story teller but.... Milarepa
had become a black magician as the story goes, he was this very powerfully
psychic dude, but his mind was a mess and his teacher told him one day
"you've got us so far behind the karmic eight ball that we *have* to get you
straight, for both of our asses. So he took him to Marpa the Translator, who
immediately put him to work carrying rocks to build a house. By hand. No
wheelbarrow. And he fed him one meal of rice a day. And years later wwhen he
finished, Marpa just yelled at him "you good for nothing, you went and built
it on my neighbor's property line. Tear the whole thing down and build it
over there." And more years past. One day Marpa's wife was talking to him
"look at that poor guy, he's half-crazy, why don't you give him a break?".
Marpa said "he heard you, now you've went and spoiled my plan, I was trying
to build something all of mankind could be benefitted from, I guess we'll
just have to hope it works. And Milarepa was a great teacher. Someone else
can tell you how great he was. Something about Tibetan Buddhism.
Tang Huyen
<<Whatever happened to the ancient European tradition of the village idiot?. In
some societies these people are still regarded as 'holy', if not enlightened. I
man who lives near me is continualy joyous though regarded by most as being as
mad .Early this morning I found him down by the river smiling at a flower.
'It's happy this flower you know - doesn't worry - doesn't go to work - no
worries' His words have haunted me all day. OK . You woudn't define his
condition as psychotic but all day at work I kept thinking 'Who's the one
that's mad ?' He has also had me wondering at the massive amount of
intellectualization we devote to 'understanding' enlightenment.
JOHN H.>>
The Buddhist tradition has always revered dumb arhats (but this does not mean
that village idiots are awakened, they are probably just idiots, happy ones
included).
Buddhist awakening has nothing to do with intellectual analysis. Dumb monks who
cannot read a single letter (or in Chinese, a single character) but who follow
the discipline reverently may be awakened, whereas the brilliant monk-scholars
who know the triple basket and can discourse on any topic off the top of their
head may be quite deluded (the question is, whether the content of their
discourse is in any way conform to the Buddha's teaching; they may know the
triple basket, but what they know may be quite heretical, given how heretical
and even overtly heretical much of Buddhism is).
I am willing to bet that intellectual analysis of the Abhidhammic-Abhidharmic
or Nagarjunic types (which are as opposite in content as anybody can imagine)
has never led anybody to awakening. Awakening takes practice, including
meditation, not just intelletual cogitation, regardless of how arid.
Of course it helps to avoid wrong theory. You can attain all eight levels of
meditation (four form, four formless stages), but if you cling to permanence
and substance (and the reverse of substance, which is nihilism, as expounded by
Candrakirti and Kamalasila), especially to a self, small or large, you'll never
get awakened. Though in India, if you attain to any level of meditation, you'll
probably be taken to be a sage.
To retain some perspective: in Russia, Tolstoy was taken to be a sage, and
people flocked to ask him how to live. He turned out to be an idiot on the very
question of how to live. But nobody would take him to be an idiot, least of all
a village idiot.
Tang Huyen
Ali Hassan
Don James <dja...@raychem.com> wrote in message
news:79sn2b$31d$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
>SNIP
>> >>
>> >>
>> >Don: there is the story of Milarepa, who's teacher Marpa made him build
>> >a house, then made him tear it down and re-build it, all the time while
>> >scolding him relentlessly and barely feeding him for years. Was this
>> >crazy? Was it abuse? Miarepa became a spiritual giant.
>> >
>>
>> Don't be a tease, tell us the story!
>>
>
>Don: hey bro, yer back!
(She's a she, Don. But that's ok. Just so long as you can remember how to
get home to miz Claire)
Well I ain't much of a story teller but.... Milarepa
>had become a black magician as the story goes, he was this very powerfully
>psychic dude, but his mind was a mess and his teacher told him one day
>"you've got us so far behind the karmic eight ball that we *have* to get
you
>straight, for both of our asses. So he took him to Marpa the Translator,
who
>immediately put him to work carrying rocks to build a house. By hand. No
>wheelbarrow. And he fed him one meal of rice a day. And years later wwhen
he
>finished, Marpa just yelled at him "you good for nothing, you went and
built
>it on my neighbor's property line. Tear the whole thing down and build it
>over there." And more years past. One day Marpa's wife was talking to him
>"look at that poor guy, he's half-crazy, why don't you give him a break?".
>Marpa said "he heard you, now you've went and spoiled my plan, I was trying
>to build something all of mankind could be benefitted from, I guess we'll
>just have to hope it works. And Milarepa was a great teacher. Someone else
>can tell you how great he was. Something about Tibetan Buddhism.
>
I think he's the patron saint of Tibet. He had murdered people who offended
him before he ever got to Marpa. He started out a a hill-farm boy who was
just trying to feed his mother and sister(?) and these jerks ruined his crop
or something. So he went and learned black magic like Don said and did away
with them.
Later at Marpa's he built and tore down the house some 7 times before
Marpa's wife ended the charade, which was designed to burn off his karma by
making him work so hard, and then see it all destroyed, crushing his ego.
Marpa said something like if he'd been able to rebuild it 9 times, he would
have left the physical immediately as a full buddha, but as things turned
out, he would only become a bodhisatva.
He performed great austerities in a cave, similar to Buddha. What his story
has to do with psychotics, only Don knows.
David Oller
mdhjwh wrote in message <36C1DB87...@ozemail.com.au>...
>Whatever happened to the ancient European
>tradition of the village idiot?.
Obviously you haven't met Brer Rabbit yet!
>In some societies
>these people are still regarded as 'holy', if
>not enlightened.
Okay, so that's not our bunny afterall.
>I man who lives near me is
>continualy joyous though regarded by most
>as being as mad .Early this morning I found
>him down by the river smiling at a flower.
>'It's happy this flower you know - doesn't
>worry - doesn't go to work - no worries'
>His words have haunted me all day.
>OK . You woudn't define his condition as
>psychotic but all day at work I kept thinking
>'Who's the one that's mad ?' He has also had
>me wondering at the massive amount of
>intellectualization we devote to'understanding'
>enlightenment.
>JOHN H.
Nice post John!
David
>> > > At the risk of putting Ali to sleep again, where do
>> > > psychopaths/psychotics fit into the equation? Is it possible for an
>> > > insane person to be enlightened?
>> > >
>> >
>> > They are the suffer from the same problems most people do. In their
>> > case, though, it is taken to an extreme.
>> >
>> > A longer road, perhaps, on average.
>> >
>> > Gassho
>> > Dirk
>> >
>>
mdhjwh
these people are still regarded as 'holy', if
continualy joyous though regarded by most
as being as mad .Early this morning I found
him down by the river smiling at a flower.
'It's happy this flower you know - doesn't
worry - doesn't go to work - no worries'
His words have haunted me all day.
OK . You woudn't define his condition as
psychotic but all day at work I kept thinking
'Who's the one that's mad ?' He has also had
me wondering at the massive amount of
intellectualization we devote to'understanding'
enlightenment.
JOHN H.
piet...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
Don James
"Ali Hassan" <ananda...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Don James <dja...@raychem.com> wrote in message
> news:79sn2b$31d$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
> >SNIP
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >Don: there is the story of Milarepa, who's teacher Marpa made him build
> >> >a house, then made him tear it down and re-build it, all the time while
> >> >scolding him relentlessly and barely feeding him for years. Was this
> >> >crazy? Was it abuse? Miarepa became a spiritual giant.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Don't be a tease, tell us the story!
> >>
> >
> >Don: hey bro, yer back!
>
> (She's a she, Don. But that's ok. Just so long as you can remember how to
> get home to miz Claire)
Don: so how you supposed to know with a name like Buddha? Ali, how come you
are so nice to me lately? Trouble in paradise?
See the most honered posters at:
http://www.ntr.net/~oak/altzen/altzen.html
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Ali Hassan
>tradition of the village idiot?.
Hitler killed a bunch of them.
>
>In some societies
>these people are still regarded as 'holy', if
>not enlightened.
>
>I man who lives near me is
>continualy joyous though regarded by most
>as being as mad .Early this morning I found
>him down by the river smiling at a flower.
>'It's happy this flower you know - doesn't
>worry - doesn't go to work - no worries'
>His words have haunted me all day.
>OK . You woudn't define his condition as
>psychotic but all day at work I kept thinking
>'Who's the one that's mad ?' He has also had
>me wondering at the massive amount of
>intellectualization we devote to'understanding'
>enlightenment.
>JOHN H.
There's an excellent French film on that subject called "The Eighth Day",
"Le Huitieme Jour"- it deals with a Down's Syndrome-afflicted man, or
mongoloid as they still call them, adopting a businessman who is having an
identity crisis/marriage breakup. In one hilarious scene, the down's
syndrome-afflicted man, George is furious that his friend Harry has taken a
box of chocolates from him (he is deathly allergic to chocolate) and tossed
them out the car window. He's cursing Harry ( in French, naturally) "Fairy,
ass-wipe, shit-eater, mongoloid," and when he gets to "mongoloid", Harry
calmly corrects him, " No, you're the mongoloid." "NO, tu es mongol!" "No,
TU es MONGOL!," they go back and forth, until Harry realizes his friend's
point of pointlessness, and they collapse laughing.
piet...@my-dejanews.com
> these people are still regarded as 'holy', if
> not enlightened.
there was a phase of christian 'holy fools' in
the middle ages, if i remember. perhaps inspired
by saint francis?
i heard a book reading by the author known as
'Red Pine' who traveled china searching for mountain
hermits, and he remarked on how actually *stupid* these
taoist hermits were. they had taken anti-intellectualism
to a literal extreme, it seems. in keeping with the
tao te ching, i suppose.
> I man who lives near me is
> continualy joyous though regarded by most
> as being as mad .Early this morning I found
> him down by the river smiling at a flower.
> 'It's happy this flower you know - doesn't
> worry - doesn't go to work - no worries'
> His words have haunted me all day.
indeed. now they haunt me! :)
used to be a guy known as 'the waver' in reno nevada
who would walk from reno to carson city and back
waving and smiling at all the cars. he did this for years.
if you talked to him, he would give you a little
postcard full of happy gibberish writing.
> OK . You woudn't define his condition as
> psychotic but all day at work I kept thinking
> 'Who's the one that's mad ?' He has also had
> me wondering at the massive amount of
> intellectualization we devote to'understanding'
> enlightenment.
yep, remember Jung?:
'religion is a defense against the religious experience'
cheers
> > an experience of pathological depersonalization disorder thru meditation:
> > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1756/kunpsych.txt
> >
> > Spiritual Emergence or Psychosis? by Selene Vega:
> > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1756/spirpsy.txt
> >
> > Charles Manson's trial testimony:
> > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1756/manson.htm
'prison's in your mind, can't you see i'm free?'
-charles manson
The Karhatsu's
to any particular group though.
Enlightenment is an accomplishment, what do Psychopaths accomplish? Can
they 'recover' from such a deep wound?
Miracles happen. Only I don't view them as miracles anymore. Just alot of
love.
Inorbit wrote:
> "Ted D. Biggs" wrote:
>
> > At the risk of putting Ali to sleep again, where do
> > psychopaths/psychotics fit into the equation? Is it possible for an
> > insane person to be enlightened?
> >
> > I think a differant way of asking this question is - Are there peaple who
> > Cannot attain enlightenment no matter how long they sit, it just aint
> > gonna happen, for whatever reason (severe mental illness, Mental
> > retardation, Autism). What was the Buddha's teaching about this? Does the
> > Religion teach that enlightenment is available to all or just those who
> > understand it (the teachings of the Religion-Four holy truths, Ect...)
> > intellectually first?
> > ----------------------------------------
Zen
Inorbit wrote in message <36D17A7C...@worldnet.att.net>...
Inorbit
piet...@my-dejanews.com
had some degree of, ahem, 'not-attainment' :), and it is interesting that
he had a special relationship with 'challenged' children, regarding
them as souls on a journey, with many future lives ahead of them,
and capable of furtherance on the Way even during this life.
re true psychopaths, Charles Manson's trial testimony remains imho
a valuable empirical datum point re the vagaries of metanoia:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1756/manson.htm
In article <36D17A7C...@worldnet.att.net>,
ki...@worldnet.att.net
they'll need to get therapy before they can
start meditation practice. People can still
have mental problems and still do other practices
which might be more benificial to them (like
just basically helping other people). After
their problems are under control then they might
be able to begin other practices including
meditation.
Everyone can be enlightened. Tilopa, an Indian
mahasiddha, was deemed insane by the general
population and nearly killed his student Naropa.
I'm sure Naropa thought Tilopa was insane too.
Maybe he was.
But that was a story, maybe even a true one.
People need a certain degree of mental health
before they can be enlightened.
Kirt
tbi...@flash.net wrote:
> At the risk of putting Ali to sleep again, where do
> psychopaths/psychotics fit into the equation? Is it possible for an
> insane person to be enlightened?
>
> From everything I've read, it is posited that *everyone* is capable of
> enlightenment. But how on earth can a paranoid schizophrenic, or, better
> yet, someone with multiple personality disorder, possibly eliminate
> their ego-self?
>
> BTW. This was another one that a non-Buddhist asked me when I was
> discussing Buddhism in general. My answer was basically a shrug.
>
> -----------------------------------------
> Ted D. Biggs
>
> "A person who is nice to you, but rude to
> the waiter, is not a nice person."
> - Dave Barry
>
> tbi...@blah.flash.net
> (Remove blah. to send/reply)
> ----------------------------------------
Dirk Bruere
>
> re true psychopaths, Charles Manson's trial testimony remains imho
> a valuable empirical datum point re the vagaries of metanoia:
With regard to true psychopaths it may be argued that only they are pure
of heart.
Gassho
Dirk