A Comparison of Tibetian and Nichiren Buddhism
Rogowdoc
A comparison of Tibetian Buddhism and Nichiren Buddhism(from a Nichiren
Priest)
"In our regular conversion efforts, we sometimes encounter questions
about Tibetan Buddhism. In this country some people are familiar with
Tibetan Buddhism, and since it is not mentioned in Nichiren Daishonin's
writings, I want to tell you how we should deal with people's confusion
between it and True Buddhism.
Prior to the arrival of Buddhist missionaries from India, the religion
of Tibet was a hybrid form of shamanism known as Bon. Bon is believed
to have been a blend of ancient shamanism with Buddhist concepts from
India and Mithraism from Persia. Exoteric Buddhism, both Hinayana and
Mahayana, first arrived in Tibet in the seventh century. This was
followed in the eighth century by the arrival of Esoteric Buddhism.
Tibetan Buddhism is the amalgamation of Hinayana, Mahayana, and Esoteric
Buddhism with pre-Buddhist Bon into a Tibetan form of Esoteric Buddhism.
Tibetan Buddhism is noted for the dominant role played by the
priest/master or guru who is believed to be a living Buddha. In the
Tibetan language, guru is lama. Therefore, Tibetan Buddhism is
sometimes referred to as "Lamaism." In Tibetan Buddhism, there are four
treasures: the Buddha, the Law, the Priesthood, and the Lama. The Lama
is held in higher esteem than are the other treasures because, they say,
that without the Lama, no one would respect the Three Treasures.
Though there are doctrinal differences between groups, in general,
Lamaism begins with three stages of Exoteric Buddhist practice.
First, Tibetan Buddhists strive to eliminate earthly desires and
accumulate good fortune by observing Hinayana Buddhist rules of
morality.
Next, they try to emancipate themselves from the sufferings of birth and
death through the practice of the Four Noble Truths and the
Twelve-Linked Chain of Causation.
Third, they aim to enlighten the masses through the Six Paramitas of
Mahayana practice.
At this point in their practice, the priests begin the four stages of
Esotericism: to behave according to the esoteric teachings, to encourage
religious practice according to the esoteric teachings, to practice yoga
according to the esoteric teachings and finally to do what they call
"ultimate yoga."
There are many reasons why Lamaism is not a correct religion. These
include:
a) The Four Treasures of Lamaism are a deviation from Orthodox
Buddhism. It is slanderous and makes a cause to destroy Buddhism.
b) The doctrine that a Lama ranks higher than the Three Treasures is
supreme arrogance because, as Shakyamuni explained in the Juryo chapter
of the Lotus Sutra, the Buddha is always here in this world, saving all
human beings. A lama or guru is merely one of the ascetics.
c) Tibetan Buddhism is not pure Buddhism because it mixes Hinayana,
Mahayana, and esoteric teachings with the Bonism of ancient Tibet.
d) In Tibetan Buddhism, they have mixed politics and religion by making
the Lama the head of state. This is very dangerous in both a religious
and political sense.
e) Shamanism is a part of Lamaism and is a departure from correct
Buddhism.
f) Yoga is not the way to attain Buddhahood. Chanting the Daimoku of
Namu-Myoho-Renge-Kyo (jigyo) and doing conversion activities (keta) are the
only true path to attain enlightenment.
Let us strive together, dedicating ourselves in the two ways of practice, for
oneself and others.
Mark
Ananda
evangelists. You go round and round and there is no end to
it. The only conclusion is if you feel chanting Namu-Myoho-
Renge-Kyo (jigyo) is going to enlighten you so let it be.
Cheerio!
Rogowdoc <rogo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990903211037...@ng-fi1.aol.com...
>
>
> A comparison of Tibetian Buddhism and Nichiren Buddhism(from a Nichiren
> Priest)
>
margaret
presentation, but I want to make some general observations.
It really gets my goat up when I read people scorning other religions (*any*
religion) because they say it is not "Pure" or "True" ("true" as in faithful
to some ideal). This is such a screamingly blatant peice of ignorance that
it always amazes me more people do not see it. Is *anything* "Pure" or
"True"? No! Of course not! Tell me one thing that is. Let's take snow.
There it lies, "pure" and "white", sparkling like a carpet of diamonds. Now
let's get down and look more closely. Ah. There are bits of earth in it
here and there. Maybe it isn't so pure. Let's look under a microscope.
Oh! How did those chemicals and pollutants and microbes get there? Bad
snow! It obviously isn't real snow! Perhaps if I climb RIGHT to the top of
the Himalayas.... no? You don't don't think so? Oh....
Let's take Buddhism. What is pure true Buddhism. Easy, silly : The
Buddhism of Shakyamuni. A-ha. So the fact that he was born about 20 years
AFTER the founder of Jainism, Mahavira, and the fact that his ideas are
almost identical, mean nothing at all. I see. And of course his ideal of
retreating from worldly activities has nothing at all to do with the
philosophies of the "fathers" of his home-religion, vedanta. The Vedas
originate from Zoroastrianism, which also promoted contemplation. Whoops.
Perhaps that Shakyamuni wasn't so "Pure" after all. Perhaps Zoroastrianism
is pure then. But hang on - didn't Zoroastrianism originate from Babilonian
philsophies? Perhaps the Babilonians were pure then. But hang on - weren't
the Babilonians influenced by...
See what I mean?
OK. So perhaps bad old Tibetan Buddhism *is* a shaggy old superstitious
"UFO" mongrel with a Buddhist father and a shaman/Bon/whatever mother. I
put these questions :
a) WHO CARES
b) SO WHAT
The only really important considerations are :
a) Does it do any harm? Well, as in any religion the odd corrupt
teacher will pop up, and then students get hurt, a situation which must be
worked on to prevent further damages. But as this happens in all religions
it isn't a reflection of the path itself. The path in ESSENCE neither harms
people, nor advocates harm. Quite the opposite. In that sense, it is
perfectly fine and ok.
b) Do the followers feel they benefit from it? Does it bring them
happiness?
Yes, they do and yes it does, or there wouldn't be any followers. This
is probably the most important of all questions. If the answer is YES to
these questions, then it really doesn't matter a hoot in hell whether the
religion is Tibetan Buddhism or the Order of the Holy Pink Plastic Flamingo.
What's important is the happiness of beings.
So stop making utter fools of yourselves, all you purists out there. Wake
up, smell the coffee, and most importantly : *DRINK* the stuff - whichever
brand turns you on. It's good.
M
Tang Huyen
margaret wrote: <<Let's take Buddhism. What is pure true Buddhism. Easy, silly
: The Buddhism of Shakyamuni. A-ha. So the fact that he was born about 20
years AFTER the founder of Jainism, Mahavira, and the fact that his ideas are
almost identical, mean nothing at all. I see. And of course his ideal of
retreating from worldly activities has nothing at all to do with the
philosophies of the "fathers" of his home-religion, vedanta. The Vedas
originate from Zoroastrianism, which also promoted contemplation. Whoops.
Perhaps that Shakyamuni wasn't so "Pure" after all. Perhaps Zoroastrianism is
pure then. But hang on - didn't Zoroastrianism originate from Babilonian
philsophies? Perhaps the Babilonians were pure then. But hang on - weren't the
Babilonians influenced by...
See what I mean?>>
Margaret,
You show how trustworthy your words are by saying: "his ideas are almost
identical", which I take to mean that the Buddha's Buddhist ideas and Mahavira's
Jaina ideas are almost identical.
The Buddha spent some years doing Jaina self-mortification and self-starvation,
which were (and are) based on a materialistic theory of deed, in which one uses
self-mortification to drive out the particles of old deed (karman) that stick to
one's body. He was on the verge of success with self-startvation, then realised
that it all had been a big error, began to take milk, and went from there to
awakening. In his teaching he spent a great deal of energy criticising the Jaina
teaching of Mahavira. His theory of deed is totally non-materialistic, and in it
one can only stop creating new deed after awakening by stopping the composing of
new compositions (the fourth aggregate), but there is nothing to do about old
deed. It simply dissipates when one dies as an awakened (arhat).
The Buddha presents the Jaina theory of the ending of deed in MN, II, 214 (101),
MA, 19, 442c: "Whatever this person experiences, all is due to what was
previously done. Thus by burning up old deed, by finishing old deed, by the
non-doing of new deed, deed is destroyed, due to the destruction of deed
suffering is destroyed." In contrast, the Buddha says at SN, V, 86 (46, 26): "By
the cutting of craving, deed (kamma) is cut; by the cutting of deed, suffering
is cut." In a Chinese text, SA, 893, 224c the Buddha says: "When deed,
defilements-afflictions, craving for becoming, the views, thinking (mana), and
ignorance exist, the compositions arise. If deed exists but
defilements-afflictions, craving for becoming, the views, thinking, and
ignorance do not exist, the compositions cease."
For the Jaina theory of karma as particles of matter (pudgala) see Paul
Masson-Oursel, "L’atomisme indien," Revue philosophique, 1925, 344-345:
"Physical explanations have always conserved with them a very archaic character,
and make an integral part of the notion of salvation. The reason for it is
simple: slavery and deliverance are to their eyes material processes. - For the
spiritual substance action consists in charging itself with matter (pudgala);
conversely freedom is obtained by the isolation of spirit." Ibid., 346:
"Salvation requires: (1) that we stop ‘gathering’ matter, that we oppose an
insurmountable dike to the invasion of the flow of karmic matter. This will to
stopping (samvara) is possible, because the soul is a free agent. (2) that we
eliminate the stock of matter accumulated in our soul (nirjara); this expulsion,
normally effected by the ‘binding’ which defines serfdom, is speeded up by
ascesis."
See what I mean? Perhaps you could benefit from reading some *beginner*'s books
on Buddhism, Margaret. You are, I'm sad to say, totally off base.
And we don't even need to mention "pure" here. Just the plain basics accepted by
all of Buddhism.
Tang Huyen
Rogowdoc
M, the presentation is true. Lamaism is a great distortion of the teachings of
Buddha. Bonten(Brahma), Taishaku(Indra), the gods of the sun and the moon and
even the native american deities have abandoned the Tibetian people. Moreover,
they have sent marauders and contrived calamities to punish them.
Mark
beard...@hotmail.com
> margaret wrote: <<Let's take Buddhism. What is pure true Buddhism. Easy,
silly
> : The Buddhism of Shakyamuni. A-ha. So the fact that he was born about 20
> years AFTER the founder of Jainism, Mahavira, and the fact that his ideas are
> almost identical, mean nothing at all. I see. And of course his ideal of
> retreating from worldly activities has nothing at all to do with the
> philosophies of the "fathers" of his home-religion, vedanta. The Vedas
> originate from Zoroastrianism, which also promoted contemplation. Whoops.
> Perhaps that Shakyamuni wasn't so "Pure" after all. Perhaps Zoroastrianism is
> pure then. But hang on - didn't Zoroastrianism originate from Babilonian
> philsophies? Perhaps the Babilonians were pure then. But hang on - weren't
the
> Babilonians influenced by...
I understood that the Zoroastrian scriptures and the Vedas are related
expressions of Indo-Aryan religious thought, but was not aware that one
directly born of the other. Can you provide a reference for this? Thanks
margaret
>See what I mean?
I can't say I do, though I feel flattered at your suggestion that you feel I
might be capable ... as it happens I got lost in the jungle of quotes.
Never mind, a Master like yourself will be only too happy to explain himself
in simple concise words.
Perhaps you could benefit from reading some *beginner*'s books
>on Buddhism, Margaret.
Indeed, I'm sure you are right. Any suggestions?
>You are, I'm sad to say, totally off base.
Quite possibly. No need to be sad. Do I understand your argument rightly,
that you say Buddhism is not at all like Jainism? Perhaps when one
scrutinises at a very deep philosophical level this may be so. I was
refering to a more general level, ie that in Jainism they are greatly
concerned not to harm any sentient beings. I don't feel that your point,
if I have understood it in essence, affects my argument to any significant
degree.
>And we don't even need to mention "pure" here.
We don't. My point exactly. But many people do - that's what I take
exception to.
Just the plain basics accepted by
>all of Buddhism.
Couldn't agree with you more.
M
Tang Huyen
margaret wrote:
Tang: <<Perhaps you could benefit from reading some *beginner*'s books on
Buddhism, Margaret.>>
Margaret: <<Indeed, I'm sure you are right. Any suggestions?>>
Walpola Rahula, What the Buddha taught.
Tang: <<You are, I'm sad to say, totally off base.>>
Margaret: <<Quite possibly. No need to be sad. Do I understand your argument
rightly, that you say Buddhism is not at all like Jainism? Perhaps when one
scrutinises at a very deep philosophical level this may be so. I was refering
to a more general level, ie that in Jainism they are greatly concerned not to
harm any sentient beings. I don't feel that your point, if I have understood it
in essence, affects my argument to any significant degree.>>
How about the very basis of Jainism, self-mortification? It is condemned as one
of the two extremes by the Buddha, the other being indulgence in sense-pleasure.
Remember, the Buddha attained awakening on *after* quitting self-mortification,
and indeed woud have died within days if he had followed though with it. Is that
important enough to rate as a basic difference? Even at a general level? No need
to scrutinise at a very deep philosophical level here, right?
If I understand you right, you are into the same "Buddhism as a Hindu religion
just like any other Hindu religion" just like Kent Sandvik and Namdrol, right?
Or am I totally off base here?
Tang Huyen
margaret
>I understood that the Zoroastrian scriptures and the Vedas are related
>expressions of Indo-Aryan religious thought, but was not aware that one
>directly born of the other. Can you provide a reference for this? Thanks
Dating is not certain (it rarely is), but my understanding of the situation
is that originally the Aryans came to Iran from S Russia via
Caucasus/Dardanelles. From there they invaded Punjab c. 3000 - 1500 BC.
Their religion was a mixture of Assyro-Babilonian & Aryan beliefs, which
were later written down as the Zend Avesta. The Zend Avesta is dated c.
1400 - 1200 BC, the Rig Veda c. 1200. The Aryan language was very similar
to Vedic, and comparisons between the scriptures show links ie Aryan "Haoma"
and Vedic "Soma". So yes, the argument for the Zend Avesta being older than
the Rig Veda is not cast in stone, but that seems to be the accepted story.
If I am wrong about this, or if new information has come to light about the
issue I would be delighted to hear about it, with references for further
reading. However, even the issue of age doesn't seem all that important in
the context of the point I was making. Although the authenticity of dating
is usually debatable, I doubt that there is any religion in the world that
has not been subject in some shape or form to "cross polination" from
another. And nor is that a bad thing : We all know the results of
in-breeding...
M
Tang Huyen
margaret wrote:
Tang: <<If I understand you right, you are into the same "Buddhism as a
Hindu religion just like any other Hindu religion" just like Kent Sandvik
and Namdrol, right? Or am I totally off base here?>>
Margaret: <<Anything you say, Tang...
(yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn)>>
Thank you, Margaret, for showing your concern for Buddhism as a distinct
religion.
Tang Huyen
dlrushing
Are you serious? And when calamities arise in your life, is it Brahma and
Indra that send them upon you? Vajrayana, or "lamaism" as you call it, is
not a disortion of the teachings, in my view, but an interpretation of them.
Actually, I think some Zen lineages place as much importance on the
teacher-student relationship, as well. I have listened to several Tibetan
Buddhist teachers, and each of their words reflected the heart of the
Buddhist teachings without the distortion of prejudice that I find in your
original post. The Nicheren sect of Buddhism dang near pushed me away from
any investigation of Buddhism; a Tibetan Buddhist group opened the door for
me to experience much more than a narrow, separatist view.
Why would you think what Nicheren did to Buddhism is any more valid
than what Tibetans did?
Bodhicitta!--Donna R
margaret
>If I understand you right, you are into the same "Buddhism as a Hindu
religion
>just like any other Hindu religion" just like Kent Sandvik and Namdrol,
right?
>Or am I totally off base here?
Anything you say, Tang... (yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn)
M
margaret
Tang Huyen wrote in message <37D1CD58...@bu.edu>...
>Thank you, Margaret, for showing your concern for Buddhism as a distinct
>religion.
I will reiterate my main points, as you appear to have missed them
In my 1st post :
"OK. So perhaps bad old Tibetan Buddhism *is* a shaggy old superstitious
"UFO" mongrel with a Buddhist father and a shaman/Bon/whatever mother. I
put these questions :
a) WHO CARES
b) SO WHAT"
Where I have said "Tibetan Buddhist" "Shaman" "Bon" you may insert any other
religion, and my main point is still there.
Furthermore, in response to beardsmoke I wrote :
"I doubt that there is any religion in the world that
has not been subject in some shape or form to "cross polination" from
another. And nor is that a bad thing : We all know the results of
in-breeding..."
Buddhism is no more a "distinct" religion than the lungs or kidneys etc are
"distinct" from the rest of the body. Such organs are only "distinct" when
you cut them out (& then they die, interestingly). Of course, this is very
different to saying that the kidneys or the lungs are *the same* as the rest
of the body. They are different, but not "distinct".
This is my last take on this subject. I find having to repeat myself
boring.
M
Tang Huyen
dlrushing wrote:
Mark Rogow: <<M[argaret], the presentation is true. Lamaism is a great
distortion of the teachings of Buddha. Bonten(Brahma), Taishaku(Indra), the gods
of the sun and the moon and even the native american deities have abandoned the
Tibetian people. Moreover, they have sent marauders and contrived calamities to
punish them.>>
Donna Rushing: <<Are you serious? And when calamities arise in your life, is it
Brahma and Indra that send them upon you? Vajrayana, or "lamaism" as you call
it, is not a disortion of the teachings, in my view, but an interpretation of
them.>>
But Donna, Margaret herself says in "Re: Buddhism as a Hindu religion? (was Re:
A Comparison of Tibetan and Nichiren Buddhism)": <<Buddhism is no more a
"distinct" religion than the lungs or kidneys etc are "distinct" from the rest
of the body. Such organs are only "distinct" when you cut them out (& then they
die, interestingly). Of course, this is very different to saying that the
kidneys or the lungs are *the same* as the rest of the body. They are
different, but not "distinct".>> From that point of view, it makes sense to say:
"when calamities arise in your life, it is Brahma and Indra that send them upon
you".
Tang Huyen
Evelyn Ruut
>
>Tang: <<If I understand you right, you are into the same "Buddhism as a
>Hindu religion just like any other Hindu religion" just like Kent Sandvik
>and Namdrol, right? Or am I totally off base here?>>
>
>(yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn)>>
>
>Thank you, Margaret, for showing your concern for Buddhism as a distinct
>religion.
>
No religion is a "distinct religion". Among the Christians you have
literally hundreds of denominations. Among the Jews, likewise. Even
among the Muslims. And yes, among the Buddhists too. No one method
speaks to all people.
Evelyn
Rogowdoc
Donna, you write:
>>>>>Are you serious?>>>>>
Yes.
>>>>>And when calamities arise in your life, is it Brahma and Indra that send
them upon you?>>>>>
Good question. Because of the disarray in Buddhism, the proliferation of
inferior teachings and general lack of spiritual development, the protective
deities have mostly departed and forsaken the people. A few have remained to
punish and awaken them. The sheer magnitude of the worlds problems, the wars,
natural disasters, internicine strife, bigotry, rampancy of diseases etc is
proof of this. This is general punishment and everyone is affected in one way
or another. The Tibetians, more specifically, practice and propagate a
particularly heretical and insidious type of Buddhism. They are therefore
subject to specific punishment and are more prone to suffering the
aforementioned disasters. This is readily apparent. Most specifically, the
leader of the Tibetians, the Dalai Lama, suffers most of all, his people being
slaughtered and his prayers going unanswered.
Conversely and generally, where the Lotus Sutra has spread, in places like
Japan [since the end of the War in particular], the people enjoy a relative
peace and security [not an absolute peace and security because inferior
teachings and teachers still abound]. The protective deities that remain watch
over the country of the practitioners of the Lotus Sutra like a lion watches
over its cub and specifically, the practitioners of the Lotus Sutra enjoy
"peace and security in this life and a fortunate birth in the next."
You asked me about "calamities" in my life. There are no calamities in my
life except the general punishment of one born into such a land, The
hindrinces I encounter can be exclusively relagated to the "Three Obstacles and
Four Devils" or the natural functions in life that arise to hinder the practice
of one sure to attain Buddhahood.
Vajrayana, or "lamaism" as you call it, is not a disortion of the
teachings, in my view, but an interpretation of them.>>>>>
In a discussion such as this, neither your view, my view nor even the view of
"His Holiness" the Dalai Lama is acceptable. we must turn to the view of
Shakyamuni Buddha and the Sutras to determine the righteousness of a particular
teaching. The Sutras and commentaries on which the Vajrayana beliefs and
practices are based are base and shallow teachings and interpretations.
>>>>>Actually, I think some Zen lineages place as much importance on the
teacher-student relationship, as well. I have listened to several Tibetan
Buddhist teachers, and each of their words reflected the heart of the Buddhist
teachings without the distortion of prejudice that I find in your original
post.>>>>>
No one places more importance on the Master-disciple relationship than do
the practitioners than the Lotus Sutra. That is why, we have chosen the Master
of Teachings Lord Shakya of the Original Doctrine and his messenger Nichiren
Daishonin as our teachers. Lord Shakya of the Original Doctrine declares:
"Ever making this my thought:
How shall I cause all the living
To enter the Supreme Way
and speedily accomplish their Buddhahood."
>>>>> The Nicheren sect of Buddhism dang near pushed me away from any
investigation of Buddhism;>>>>>
You are looking outside of yourself, something even a Hinayana practitioner
would be loathet to do. It is in no way the fault of Nichiren or his disciples
why you are as yet unable to embrace the Sublime Teachings of the Lotus Flower
Sutra.
>>>>>a Tibetan Buddhist group opened the door for me to experience much more
than a narrow, separatist view.>>>>>
Non-dual view: The One Buddha Vehicle for the entire masses of beings.
>>>>> Why would you think what Nicheren did to Buddhism is any more valid than
what Tibetans did>>>>>
Nichiren advocated the One Buddha Vehicle, the Great Law. The Tibetians
advocate the person rather than the Law. The Tibetians will quickly destroy
Buddhism.
Mark
tjn
>
> A comparison of Tibetian Buddhism and Nichiren Buddhism(from a Nichiren
> Priest)
>
> about Tibetan Buddhism. In this country some people are familiar with
> Tibetan Buddhism, and since it is not mentioned in Nichiren Daishonin's
> writings, I want to tell you how we should deal with people's confusion
> between it and True Buddhism.
this is very curious. however i must say that it appears to me that
Tibetan Buddhism and Nichiren Buddhism have many similarities. i hope
that saying this insults neither side and promotes better mutual
understanding between the two.
first of all the principal object of worship in Nichiren Buddhism, the
gohonzon, is a mandala. true instead of representing deities on a more
or less ornate field some rather nice calligraphy is used. but this is
also a similarity since is is not unknown to repreent deities with their
seed syllables, etc. in Tibetan Buddhist mandalas.
secondly the practices are rather similar. the recitation of Nam Myoho
Renge Kyo and the recitation of mantras are no different as a form of
practice. furthermore both are rather exclusively concerned with
bodhisattva practice.
thirdly the extent of guru devotion is similar. Nichiren Buddhists are
as devoted to their teachers as any TB practitioner is devoted to their
root lama.
fourthly both schools believe in the incarnation of Bodhisattvas in
palpable human form. Nichiren believed himself and is believed by
followers to be the incarnation of the Boddhisattva of Supreme Action
Visistacaritra much as Tibetan Buddhists believe the Dalai Lama to be
the incarnation of the Bodhisattva of Supreme Compassion Avalokitesvara.
fifthly, it should be no surprise that there are similarities between
Nichiren and Tibetan Buddhism. both are esoteric Buddhist schools.
Nichiren started in the Tendai school and learned much Vajrayana in the
Tendai school and Nichiren used Vajrayana rituals throughout his career.
thus one must conclude that there is no basis for saying that the
practice forms are fundamentally different.
tjn
>
> A comparison of Tibetian Buddhism and Nichiren Buddhism(from a Nichiren
> Priest)
>
> "In our regular conversion efforts, we sometimes encounter questions
> about Tibetan Buddhism. In this country some people are familiar with
> Tibetan Buddhism, and since it is not mentioned in Nichiren Daishonin's
> writings, I want to tell you how we should deal with people's confusion
> between it and True Buddhism.
>
> Prior to the arrival of Buddhist missionaries from India, the religion
> of Tibet was a hybrid form of shamanism known as Bon. Bon is believed
> to have been a blend of ancient shamanism with Buddhist concepts from
> India and Mithraism from Persia. Exoteric Buddhism, both Hinayana and
> Mahayana, first arrived in Tibet in the seventh century. This was
> followed in the eighth century by the arrival of Esoteric Buddhism.
> Tibetan Buddhism is the amalgamation of Hinayana, Mahayana, and Esoteric
> Buddhism with pre-Buddhist Bon into a Tibetan form of Esoteric Buddhism.
Vajrayana Buddhism in general (of which Nichiren Buddhism is a
denomination) arises from folk religions that include shamanic elements.
it originated possibly with shamanisms that were popular in Bengal and
Assam before moving north and south within India. it is true that
Tibetan Buddhism adapted Vajrayana by adding elements from Tibetan
shamanisms and also the Bon religion. it is also true that the south
Indian Vajrayana that arrived in China incorporated Chinese and Japanese
shamanisms during the formation of the T'ien-t'ai and Tendai sects. in
particular the Japanese shugendo shamanism played a pivotal role in
modifying slightly the forms of practice. much as Bon and Tibetan
shamanism modified north Indian Vajrayana to produce Tibetan Buddhism,
Chinese and Japanese shamanism modified south Indian Vajrayana to bring
forth Tendai and Nichiren Buddhism.
now before any Theravada person gets ready to proclaim "victory", there
is ample documentation of the fact that in southeast Asia local
shamanisms shaped local customs. see Lopez's _Buddhism in Practice_
where even the Abhidharma is shown to have shamanic uses.
so Nichiren Buddhism, coming from Tendai is very much like Tibetan
Buddhism in the history of influences. only the influences are a little
different.
to requote the writer:
> Tibetan Buddhism is the amalgamation of Hinayana, Mahayana, and Esoteric
> Buddhism with pre-Buddhist Bon into a Tibetan form of Esoteric Buddhism.
and one can equally well say that
Tendai and Nichiren Buddhism are the amalgamation of Hinayana, Mahayana
and Esoteric
Buddhism with pre-Buddhist Chinese and Japanese shamanism into Japanese
forms of Esoteric Buddhism.
one might say, so what? so what indeed.
well for one thing one doesn't hear of Tibetan or Tendai folks claiming
to have the only true Buddhism very often.
as far as any Zen/Chan folk reading..... ceremony and ritual in Zen/Chan
is based on the same south Indian Vajrayana line as Tendai and Nichiren.
as for the difference between south and north Indian Vajrayana? i'm
looking but i haven't found any.
Theravad
<pud...@frontiernet.net> writes:
> No one method
>speaks to all people.
Even the Buddhadhamma does not speak to all people, only those with ears!
Theravad
<marg...@mdebethlen.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>This is my last take on this subject. I find having to repeat myself
>boring.
>
>
Do you guys really think that Buddhism is a religion?
Theravad
(Rogowdoc) writes:
> Good question. Because of the disarray in Buddhism, the proliferation of
>inferior teachings and general lack of spiritual development, the protective
>deities have mostly departed and forsaken the people. A few have remained to
>punish and awaken them. The sheer magnitude of the worlds problems, the wars,
>natural disasters, internicine strife, bigotry, rampancy of diseases etc is
>proof of this.
Can you really believe this? You sound like Marion Catholics who believe that
only Mary is keeping Jesus from coming back to kick butt. World problems prove
nothing. This is the way it has always been and always will be so long as
there is a world. If you want rampancy of diseases, try Europe in the Dark
Ages, nothing today comes even close to comparing with that.
I do agree with what you are doing but not because it will have the slightest
impact on the world but it may shape you and lead you to Enlightenment. you are
following your conscience which is the first step in that direction. Success
will surely find you.
Theravad
> From that point of view, it makes sense to say:
>"when calamities arise in your life, it is Brahma and Indra that send them
>upon
>you".
Tang, It is absurd to compare every school of Buddhism which you do not
understand or agree with to Brahmanism. Of all the schools of Buddhism, ours
is surely the one most closely associated with Brahmanism. In Thailand,
currently the oldest branch of Theravada, nostate ceremony can be performed by
a Buddhist monk but is reserved strictly for Brahman priests.
What I think you are addressing is the so-called re-Hinduism of Buddhism
(Hinduism did not exist until nearly 1000 after the Buddha). Many people do
not realize the basic antagonism between Buddhism and Hinduism, between Unity
and Dualism. The devil in me likes to ask smiling Hindus whatever happened to
all those Buddhists who dissappeared in India? Did your ancestors eat them?
You can imagine the reaction I get from vegetarian, ahimsa practicing Hindus!
Hee hee!
You may be judging Vajrayana on exterior practices without adequate knowledge
of the esoteric core, which would be a very bad mistake.
Rogowdoc
tjn writes,
>>>>this is very curious. however i must say that it appears to me that Tibetan
Buddhism and Nichiren Buddhism have many similarities. i hope that saying this
insults neither side and promotes better mutual understanding between the
two.>>>>>
All Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings share similarities with the
teachings of the Lotus Sutra as "All rivers run to the sea."
>>>>>first of all the principal object of worship in Nichiren Buddhism, the
gohonzon, is a mandala. true instead of representing deities on a more or less
ornate field some rather nice calligraphy is used. but this is also a
similarity since is is not unknown to repreent deities with their seed
syllables, etc. in Tibetan Buddhist mandalas.>>>>>
The Gohonzon is both The Master of Teachings Lord Shakya of the Original
Doctrine and the Ceremony in the Air whereby the Eternal Original Buddha
transmits his most important teachings(Namu Myoho renge kyo) to the
Bodhisattvas of the Earth. The Buddha, containing the entierty of the Ten
Worlds, contains the World of Gods. Therefore, the gods as well as all beings
are present at the Ceremony in the Air.
>>>>>secondly the practices are rather similar. the recitation of Nam Myoho
Renge Kyo and the recitation of mantras are no different as a form of
practice>>>>>
It is fairly obvious from our discourse that our practices are different as
night and
day. It is true all Mantras are composed of words just as rivers and sea are
composed of water. Yet they are different. The meanings are different, the
import is different, the causes, effects and conditions are different.
>>>>> furthermore both are rather exclusively concerned with bodhisattva
practice.>>>>>
No. Nichiren Buddhists dispense with the practices of the Six Perfections
except that of the Perfection of Wisdom. "Medicine King! If any bodhisattva, on
hearing this Law Flower Sutra, is startled, doubts and fears, you may know that
this is a bodhisattva neophyte." Why does the Buddha say this in the Lotus
Sutra? One reason is because the practice of the Lotus Sutra is so very
difficult. Another reason is that to read, recite, and ponder and teach others
indicates that we have served tens of quintillians of Buddhas in our past
existences.
>>>>thirdly the extent of guru devotion is similar. Nichiren Buddhists are as
devoted to their teachers as any TB practitioner is devoted to their root
lama.>>>>
This may be true but our "root Lamas" are the "root Lamas" of all Buddhas and
Bodhisattvas, throughout the Three Existences, the Master of Teachings Lord
Shakya of the Original Doctrine and his messenger, Nichiren Daishonin.
To be continued....
Mark
Rogowdoc
Continued......
Since our "root Lamas'', The Eternal Buddha Shakyamuni and his messenger
Nichiren Daishonin are the Original "root Lamas" of all Buddhas and
Bodhisattvas, the causes, effects and conditions of our devotion differs.
You continue:
>>>>>fourthly both schools believe in the incarnation of Bodhisattvas in
palpable human form. Nichiren believed himself and is believed by followers to
be the incarnation of the Boddhisattva of Supreme Action Visistacaritra much as
Tibetan Buddhists believe the Dalai Lama to be
the incarnation of the Bodhisattva of Supreme Compassion Avalokitesvara.>>>>>
It is impossible that the Dalai Lama is an incarnation of Bodhisattva
Reguarder of the Cries of the World. When offerings are made to Bodhisattva
Reguarder of the Cries of the World he defers and passes them on to Buddha
Shakyamuni and Buddha Abundant Treasures. The Dalai Lama does neither. Neither
does he practice reading, reciting and causing others to read and recite the
Lotus Sutra. Not one person has been saved by the Dalai Lama but tens of
billions of trillions of countless of beings have been saved by Bodhisattva
Reguarder of the Cries of the World.
>>>>>fifthly, it should be no surprise that there are similarities between
Nichiren and Tibetan Buddhism. both are esoteric Buddhist schools.>>>>>
This is very wrong. The practice of the Lotus Sutra is an exoteric practice.
The Lotus Sutra is the exoteric work of Mahayana Buddhism.
>>>>>Nichiren started in the Tendai school and learned much Vajrayana in the
Tendai school and Nichiren used Vajrayana rituals throughout his career.>>>>>
True Tendai reject Vajrayana. Here is what Nichiren says about the
Vajrayana(esoteric or Shingon rituals) rituals:
:
"Unless one who has grasped the essence of the Lotus Sutra conducts the eye
opening ceremony for a wooden or painted image, it will be as if a masterless
house were to be occupied by a thief or as if, upon a person's death, a demon
were to enter his body. When, in present day Japan, eye opening ceremonies for
the Buddha images are conducted according to the Shingon rite, demons occupy
them and deprive people of their lives, for a
demon is known as a "robber of life." Moreover, devils enter those images
and deprive people of benefits, and another name for a devil is a "robber of
benefits." Because the people worship demons, they will bring the country to
ruin in their present lifetime, and because they revere devils,
they will fall into the hell of incessant suffering in their next existence."
MW 4:35
>>>>>thus one must conclude that there is no basis for saying that the practice
forms are fundamentally different.>>>>>
There many errors in your understanding of Nichiren Buddhism. However, Since
you have responded to my post, I will continue to answer as best as I can in
the hopes that you will at least incorporate Namu Myoho renge kyo into your
practices.
Mark
Rogowdoc
tjn, you write:
Rogowdoc wrote:
>
> A comparison of Tibetian Buddhism and Nichiren Buddhism(from a Nichiren
> Priest)
>
[del]
> "In our regular conversion efforts, we sometimes encounter questions
> about Tibetan Buddhism. In this country some people are familiar with
> Tibetan Buddhism, and since it is not mentioned in Nichiren Daishonin's
> writings, I want to tell you how we should deal with people's confusion
> between it and True Buddhism.
>
> Prior to the arrival of Buddhist missionaries from India, the religion
> of Tibet was a hybrid form of shamanism known as Bon. Bon is believed
> to have been a blend of ancient shamanism with Buddhist concepts from
> India and Mithraism from Persia. Exoteric Buddhism, both Hinayana and
> Mahayana, first arrived in Tibet in the seventh century. This was
> followed in the eighth century by the arrival of Esoteric Buddhism.
> Tibetan Buddhism is the amalgamation of Hinayana, Mahayana, and Esoteric
> Buddhism with pre-Buddhist Bon into a Tibetan form of Esoteric Buddhism.
>>>>>Vajrayana Buddhism in general (of which Nichiren Buddhism is a
denomination)>>>>>
You may wish that to be so but I think I have proven that not to be the
case.
>>>>>...arises from folk religions that include shamanic elements. it
originated possibly with shamanisms that were popular in Bengal and Assam
before moving north and south within India. it is true that Tibetan Buddhism
adapted Vajrayana by adding elements from Tibetan shamanisms and also the Bon
religion. it is also true that the south
Indian Vajrayana that arrived in China incorporated Chinese and Japanese
shamanisms during the formation of the T'ien-t'ai and Tendai sects. in
particular the Japanese shugendo shamanism played a pivotal role in
modifying slightly the forms of practice. much as Bon and Tibetan
shamanism modified north Indian Vajrayana to produce Tibetan Buddhism,
Chinese and Japanese shamanism modified south Indian Vajrayana to bring
forth Tendai and Nichiren Buddhism.>>>>>
Please provide some documentation in the writings of Tientai, the founder of
the Tientai Buddhism. Citing his writings on Nagarjuna will not suffice because
other schools such as Madhyamika arose from the teachings of Nagarjuna and in
fact Tientai is a evolution of Madhyamika thought.
>>>>now before any Theravada person gets ready to proclaim "victory", there
is ample documentation of the fact that in southeast Asia local shamanisms
shaped local customs. see Lopez's _Buddhism in Practice_ where even the
Abhidharma is shown to have shamanic uses.>>>>>
Victorious, the Therevadans? I don't think so. They haven't been victorius
since the time of Vasabandu's conversion.
>>>>>so Nichiren Buddhism, coming from Tendai is very much like Tibetan
Buddhism in the history of influences. only the influences are a little
different.>>>>>
No.
>>>>>to requote the writer:
> Tibetan Buddhism is the amalgamation of Hinayana, Mahayana, and Esoteric
> Buddhism with pre-Buddhist Bon into a Tibetan form of Esoteric Buddhism.
and one can equally well say that
Tendai and Nichiren Buddhism are the amalgamation of Hinayana, Mahayana
and Esoteric Buddhism with pre-Buddhist Chinese and Japanese shamanism into
Japanese forms of Esoteric Buddhism.>>>>>
You have said alot here. Could you please offer up some proof.
Mark
Rogowdoc
Continued, a reply to tjn:
>>>>>well for one thing one doesn't hear of Tibetan or Tendai folks claiming to
have the only true Buddhism very often.>>>>>
How could they? They aren't the only true Buddhism for this day and age..
Mark
Rogowdoc
Thera, my good friend, you write:
>>>>>Can you really believe this?>>>>>
Lets see what the Buddha has to say about this. Forget for a moment what I
said. Lets see what the Buddha has to say in the Sutra of the Benevolent King,
The sutra of the Enlightened King, Sutra of the Great Assembly, and the Sutra
of the Buddha of Healing:
For example, in the Konkomyo Sutra(The Sutra of the Enlightened King or
Suvarnaprabhasa Sutra) we read: "[The Four Heavenly Kings said to the Buddha,]
‘Though this sutra exists in the nation, its ruler has never allowed it to be
propagated. In his heart he turns away from it, and he takes no pleasure in
hearing its teachings. He does not make offerings to it, honor or praise it.
Nor is he willing to honor or make offerings to the four kinds of Buddhists13
who embrace the sutra. In the end, he makes it impossible for us and the
countless other heavenly beings who are our followers to hear this profound and
wonderful teaching. He deprives us of the sweet dew of its words and cuts us
off from the flow of the correct teaching, so that our majesty and strength are
drained away. Thus the number of beings who occupy the evil paths increases and
the number who dwell in the human and heavenly realms decreases. People fall
into the river of the suffering of birth and death and turn their backs on the
road to nirvana.
" ‘World-Honored One, we, the Four Heavenly Kings, as well as our various
followers and the yakshas14 and other beings, observing this state of affairs,
have decided to abandon this nation, for we have no heart to protect it. And it
is not we alone who cast aside this ruler. All the great benevolent deities who
guard and watch over the countless different regions of the country will also
invariably reject him. And once we and the others abandon and desert this
nation, then many different types of disasters will occur in the country and
the ruler will fall from power. Not a single person in the entire population
will possess a heart of goodness; there will be nothing but binding and
enslaving, killing and injuring, anger and contention. Men will slander each
other or fawn upon one another, and the laws will be twisted until even the
innocent are made to suffer. Pestilence will become rampant, comets will appear
again and again, two suns will come forth side by side and eclipses will occur
with unaccustomed frequency. Black arcs and white arcs will span the sky as
harbingers of ill fortune, stars will fall, the earth will shake, and noises
will issue from the wells. Torrential rains and violent winds will come out of
season, there will be constant famine, and grains and fruits will not ripen.
Marauders from many other regions will invade and plunder the nation, the
people will suffer all manner of pain and affliction, and there will be no
place where one may live in safety.’"
The Daijuku Sutra(The Sutra of the Great Assembly or Mahasanghata Sutra) says:
"When the teachings of the Buddha truly become obscured and lost, then people
will all let their beards, hair and fingernails grow long, and the laws of the
world will be forgotten and ignored. At that time, loud noises will sound in
the air and the earth will shake; everything in the world will begin to move as
though it were a waterwheel. City walls will split and tumble, and all houses
and dwellings will collapse. Roots, branches, leaves, petals and fruits will
lose their medicinal properties. With the exception of the heavens of purity,
all the regions of the world of desire15 will become deprived of the seven
flavors16 and the three kinds of vitality,17 until not a trace of them remains
any more. All the good discourses that lead people to emancipation will at this
time disappear. The flowers and fruits that grow in the earth will become few
and will lose their flavor and sweetness. The wells, springs and ponds will all
go dry, the land everywhere will turn brackish and will crack open and warp
into hillocks and gullies. All the mountains will be swept by fire and the
heavenly beings and dragons will no longer send down rain. The seedlings of the
crops will all wither and die, all the living plants will perish, and even the
weeds will cease to grow any more. Dust will rain down until all is darkness
and the sun and the moon no longer shed their light.
"All the four directions will be afflicted by drought, and evil omens will
appear again and again. The ten evil acts18 will increase greatly, particularly
greed, anger and stupidity, and people will think no more of their fathers and
mothers than does the roe deer. Living beings will decline in numbers, in
longevity, physical strength, dignity and enjoyment. They will become estranged
from the delights of the human and heavenly realms and all will fall into the
paths of evil. The wicked rulers and monks who perform these ten evil acts will
curse and destroy my correct teaching and make it difficult for those in the
human and heavenly realms to stay there. At that time the benevolent deities
and heavenly kings, who would ordinarily take pity on living beings, will
abandon this impure and evil nation and all will make their way to other
regions."
The Ninno Sutra(Sutra of the Benevolent King) states: "When a nation becomes
disordered, it is the spirits which first show signs of rampancy. Because the
spirits become rampant, all the people of the nation become disordered.
Invaders come to plunder the country and the common people face annihilation.
The ruler, the high ministers, the crown prince, the other princes and the
hundred officials all quarrel with each other over right and wrong. Heaven and
earth manifest prodigies and strange occurrences; the twenty-eight
constellations19, the stars, the sun and the moon appear at irregular times and
in irregular positions, and numerous outlaws rise up."
The same sutra also states: "Now when I use the five types of vision to clearly
perceive the three existences, I see that all the kings in their past
existences served five hundred Buddhas, and that is the reason that they were
able to become emperors and sovereigns. And that also is the reason that all
the various sages and arhats are born in their nations and bring great
benefits. But if a time should come when the good fortune of these rulers runs
out, then all the sages will abandon them and depart. And once the sages have
departed, then the seven disasters are certain to arise."
The Yakushi Sutra(The Sutra of the buddha of Healing or Bhaishajyaguru Sutra)
states: "If disasters and calamities should befall members of the ruling
Kshatriya20 class and anointed kings21, such disasters will be as follows: the
calamity of disease and pestilence among the populace; the calamity of invasion
and plunder from foreign lands; the calamity of revolt within one’s own domain;
the calamity of irregularities and strange occurrences among the stars and
constellations; the calamity of eclipses of the sun and moon; the calamity of
unseasonable wind and rain; and the calamity of rain that fails to fall even
when the season for it has come and gone."
In the Ninno Sutra, [the Buddha addresses King Prasenajit22 in these words]:
"Great King, the region where my teachings now hold sway consists of one
billion Sumeru worlds with one billion suns and moons. Each of these Sumeru23
worlds comprises four continents. In the southern continent of Jambudvipa,
there are sixteen major countries, five hundred middle-sized countries, and ten
thousand small countries. In these countries, there are seven types of fearful
disasters that may occur. All the rulers of these countries agree that these
are indeed disasters. What, then, are these disasters?
"When the sun and moon depart from their regular courses, when the seasons come
in the wrong order, when a red sun or a black sun appears, when two, three,
four or five suns appear at the same time24, when the sun is eclipsed and loses
its light, or when one, two, three, four or five coronas appear around the sun,
this is the first disaster.
"When the twenty-eight constellations do not move in their regular courses,
when the Metal Star25, the Broom Star, the Wheel Star, the Demon Star, the Fire
Star, the Water Star, the Wind Star, the Ladle Star, the Southern Dipper, the
Northern Dipper, the great stars of the Five Garrisons, and all the many stars
that govern the ruler, the three high ministers and the hundred other officials
-- when each of these stars manifests some peculiar behavior, this is the
second disaster.
"When huge fires consume the nation and the people are all burned to death, or
when there are outbreaks of demon fire, dragon fire, heavenly fire, mountain
god fire, human fire, tree fire or bandit fire26 -- when these prodigies
appear, this is the third disaster.
"When huge floods drown the population, when the seasons come out of order and
there is rain in winter, snow in summer, thunder and lightning in the winter
season, and ice, frost and hail in the sixth month, when red, black or green
rain falls, when mountains of dirt and stones come raining down, or when it
rains dust, sand or gravel, when the rivers and streams run backward, when
mountains are afloat and boulders are washed away-when freakish happenings of
this kind occur, this is the fourth disaster.
"When huge winds blow the people to their death and the lands, the mountains
and rivers and the trees and forests are all at one time wiped out, when great
winds come out of season or when black winds, red winds, green winds, heavenly
winds, earthly winds, fire winds and water winds blow -- when prodigies of this
kind occur, this is the fifth disaster.
"When heaven and earth and the whole country are stricken by terrible heat so
that the air seems to be on fire, when the hundred plants wither and the five
kinds of grain27 fail to ripen, when the earth is red and scorched and the
inhabitants all perish-when prodigies of this kind occur, this is the sixth
disaster.
"When enemies rise up on all four sides and invade the nation, when rebels
appear in the capital and the outlying regions, when there are fire bandits,
water bandits, wind bandits and demon bandits28, and the population is
subjected to devastation and disorder, and fighting and plundering break out
everywhere-when prodigies of this type occur, this is the seventh disaster."
The Daijuku Sutra says: "Though the ruler of a state may have for countless
existences in the past practiced the giving of alms, observed the precepts and
cultivated wisdom, if he sees that my teaching is in danger of perishing and
stands idly by without doing anything to protect it, then all the inestimable
roots of goodness that he has planted through the practices just mentioned will
be entirely wiped out, and his country will become the scene of three
inauspicious occurrences. The first is high grain prices, the second is
warfare, and the third is epidemics. All the benevolent deities will abandon
the country, and although the king may issue commands, the people will not obey
them. The country will constantly be invaded and vexed by neighboring nations.
Violent fires will rage out of control, fierce winds and rains will abound, the
waters will swell and overflow, and the inhabitants will be blown about by
winds or swept away by floods. The paternal and maternal relatives of the ruler
will join in plotting revolt. Before long, the ruler will fall gravely ill, and
after his life has come to an end, he will be reborn in the great hell.... And
the same fate will befall the ruler’s consort, his heir, the high ministers of
the state, the lords of cities, the village heads and generals, the magistrates
of districts, and the government officials."(The above from Nichiren's treatise
Establishing the Right Law and Save the Country)
The passages quoted above are perfectly clear. the world has evolved as the
Buddha has predicted. Namu Myoho renge kyo is the Right Law to be established
now.
Mark
JulianLZB87
Rogowdoc wrote in message <19990905210834...@ng-ch1.aol.com>...
>
> Thera, my good friend, you write:
>
>>>>>>Can you really believe this?>>>>>
>
>Lets see what the Buddha has to say about this.
Aren't we lucky that he spoke English.
Fred Wolff
>denomination)>>>>>
>
Nichiren Buddhism is hardly a denomination of Vajrayana....Mikkyo, yes.
Mikkyo could almost be considered the Japanese equivalent.
Nichiren Buddhism... I don't think so. Not by any stretch of the
imagination.
Rogowdoc
Fred, you write:
Actually, the Shingon teachings were brought to Japan by Dengyo. However,
in Dengyo's Ebyo Sho(A Clarification of the Sects Based on Tientai's Doctrines)
he renounces Shingon as a component of the Tientai sect.
Mark
Rogowdoc
Kobo(774-835) and Dengyo(767-822) were contemporaries who traveled to China.
Both remained for two years(Kobo from 804-806 and Dengyo from ?-?). I think it
is fruitless to discuss who first brought back the Shingon teachings. However,
it is fruitful to compare and contrast the teachings of Shingon and the
Teachings of the Lotus Sutra.
Mark
Theravad
writes:
>now before any Theravada person gets ready to proclaim "victory", there
>is ample documentation of the fact that in southeast Asia local
>shamanisms shaped local customs. see Lopez's _Buddhism in Practice_
>where even the Abhidharma is shown to have shamanic uses.
>
Absolutely, tjn! As a Theravadin who has lived in Thailand for 4 years, I can
confirm the presence of both shamanism and animism in Thai Buddhism. In fact,
I suspect that there is no school more affected by these things than Theravada.
Do you think that it is about time that we became a little less defensive about
differences in our traditions?
Theravad
<marg...@mdebethlen.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>Dating is not certain (it rarely is), but my understanding of the situation
>is that originally the Aryans came to Iran from S Russia via
>Caucasus/Dardanelles.
Interesting ,Margret, but I place the center of emigration a little to the
north and a bit east of where you suggest. This would place the Cradle of
Spirituality somewhere in central Russia, east of the Urals. This is a gues of
course but recent evidence supports it. The discovery of Caucasian mummies at
the Tarim Basin in China and the Kurgan Digs now underway suggest a link
between Europe and China. It is possible that Europeans 10,000 or more years
ago migrated to China but a more likely explanation is that the mummies found
in China originated in the same place as European migration started.
I conjecture that the first Buddha in this cycle lived in this region about
30,000 years ago, at the end of the last Ice Age. This Buddha apparently
taught a doctrine similar to Gnosticism and these teachings are found in
different forms in Brahmanism, Taoism, Buddhism, and Native American
Spirituality. Even the Greeks owe some of their ideas to this original source.
Now for the blockbuster, the Judeao-Christian tradition began in Ur, not far
from the the Gnostic Iranian Civililization which produced Zoroastrianism and
the Vedas. Abram left the Hittite/Hattian weather god, Taru to serve a God
with no name.
Because the Iranian link has yet to be firmly established, many scholars
attribute Middle Eastern Spirituality to the Anatolians who migrated into
Greece and Turkey. linguistic, cultural and spiritual patterns make it almos
impossible not to believbe in the Iranian connection.
Of course this is mostly conjecture but I have found no contradictory evidence
so far.
tjn
>
> Continued......
>
> Since our "root Lamas'', The Eternal Buddha Shakyamuni and his messenger
> Nichiren Daishonin are the Original "root Lamas" of all Buddhas and
> Bodhisattvas, the causes, effects and conditions of our devotion differs.
not so. you would need to establish that Tibetan Buddhism does not
revere the same Shakyamuni. true they do not revere Nichiren but having
Shakyamuni in common is more important. the Lotus Sutra is very
important in Tibetan Buddhism. it has been preserved in Sanskrit in many
manuscript copies in monasteries in Nepal and Tibet.
> You continue:
>
> >>>>>fourthly both schools believe in the incarnation of Bodhisattvas in
> palpable human form. Nichiren believed himself and is believed by followers to
> be the incarnation of the Boddhisattva of Supreme Action Visistacaritra much as
> Tibetan Buddhists believe the Dalai Lama to be
> the incarnation of the Bodhisattva of Supreme Compassion Avalokitesvara.>>>>>
>
> It is impossible that the Dalai Lama is an incarnation of Bodhisattva
> Reguarder of the Cries of the World.
actually i have never met a human being who is _not_ to some degree a
manifestation of Avalokitesvara! even you...
> When offerings are made to Bodhisattva
> Reguarder of the Cries of the World he defers and passes them on to Buddha
> Shakyamuni and Buddha Abundant Treasures. The Dalai Lama does neither.
all offerings are offered to all Buddhas ultimately so this statement is
false.
> Neither
> does he practice reading, reciting and causing others to read and recite the
> Lotus Sutra.
i have dealt with the inaccuracy of this above. Tibetan monasteries have
been invaluable resources for investigation of the original Sanskrit
text of the Lotus Sutra where numerous old manuscript copies have been
uncovered. futhermore the Lotus is in the Tibetan canon. every time the
canon is copied the Lotus is copied!
> Not one person has been saved by the Dalai Lama but tens of
> billions of trillions of countless of beings have been saved by Bodhisattva
> Reguarder of the Cries of the World.
how do you know that not one person has been saved by the Dalai Lama? i
rather think that there are many people who would claim they have!
> >>>>>fifthly, it should be no surprise that there are similarities between
> Nichiren and Tibetan Buddhism. both are esoteric Buddhist schools.>>>>>
>
> This is very wrong. The practice of the Lotus Sutra is an exoteric practice.
> The Lotus Sutra is the exoteric work of Mahayana Buddhism.
although you are correct that the Lotus is an exoteric work you ignore
the fact that Nichiren's ritual is an esoteric one and that he comes
from an ordination lineage (Saicho the Tendai founder in Japan and
Chih-i in China) which performed many esoteric rituals. the use of
mantra (Namu Myoho Renge Kyo) and mandala (the Gohonzon) is in common
with esoteric schools such as Tibetan Buddhism. Nichiren's own belief
that he is Boddhisattva of Supreme Action Visistacaritra further
indicates a connection with esoteric Buddhism. it is more subtle and
shaded than you represent it to be.
> >>>>>Nichiren started in the Tendai school and learned much Vajrayana in the
> Tendai school and Nichiren used Vajrayana rituals throughout his career.>>>>>
>
> True Tendai reject Vajrayana. Here is what Nichiren says about the
> Vajrayana(esoteric or Shingon rituals) rituals:
> :
> "Unless one who has grasped the essence of the Lotus Sutra conducts the eye
> opening ceremony for a wooden or painted image, it will be as if a masterless
> house were to be occupied by a thief or as if, upon a person's death, a demon
> were to enter his body. When, in present day Japan, eye opening ceremonies for
> the Buddha images are conducted according to the Shingon rite, demons occupy
> them and deprive people of their lives, for a
> demon is known as a "robber of life." Moreover, devils enter those images
> and deprive people of benefits, and another name for a devil is a "robber of
> benefits." Because the people worship demons, they will bring the country to
> ruin in their present lifetime, and because they revere devils,
> they will fall into the hell of incessant suffering in their next existence."
> MW 4:35
fine, but it impies only that he didn't like _Shingon_ esoteric rituals.
he certainly liked the esoteric rituals that are practiced by even pure
Tendai! ultimately although he criticized some Tendai and all Shingon
sect rituals, Nichiren used Tendai rituals that have their origin in
esoteric Buddhism.
i have Nichiren friends whom i have shown ritual patterns that are
common to Zen, Pure Land, and Tibetan Buddhism. they find nothing
ritually incorrect by Nichiren Buddhism standards in them. you need to
do more research on the nature of ritual in Buddhism.
> >>>>>thus one must conclude that there is no basis for saying that the practice
> forms are fundamentally different.>>>>>
>
> There many errors in your understanding of Nichiren Buddhism. However, Since
> you have responded to my post, I will continue to answer as best as I can in
> the hopes that you will at least incorporate Namu Myoho renge kyo into your
> practices.
i don't think that there are many errors on my part at all. as fart as
incorporating Namu Myoho Renge Kyo in my practice, you are too late. at
the traditional meal service in Soto Zen 10 Buddha's are named. since
one is the title of the Lotus Sutra, all Soto Zen monks have paid
reverence to the Lotus Sutra from before Nichiren was born.
tjn
>
> tjn writes,
>
> >>>>this is very curious. however i must say that it appears to me that Tibetan
> Buddhism and Nichiren Buddhism have many similarities. i hope that saying this
> insults neither side and promotes better mutual understanding between the
> two.>>>>>
>
> All Buddhist and non-Buddhist teachings share similarities with the
> teachings of the Lotus Sutra as "All rivers run to the sea."
good, agreement there then.
> >>>>>first of all the principal object of worship in Nichiren Buddhism, the
> gohonzon, is a mandala. true instead of representing deities on a more or less
> ornate field some rather nice calligraphy is used. but this is also a
> similarity since is is not unknown to repreent deities with their seed
> syllables, etc. in Tibetan Buddhist mandalas.>>>>>
>
> The Gohonzon is both The Master of Teachings Lord Shakya of the Original
> Doctrine and the Ceremony in the Air whereby the Eternal Original Buddha
> transmits his most important teachings(Namu Myoho renge kyo) to the
> Bodhisattvas of the Earth. The Buddha, containing the entierty of the Ten
> Worlds, contains the World of Gods. Therefore, the gods as well as all beings
> are present at the Ceremony in the Air.
it is thus a mandala just as is found in Tibetan Buddhism. since i have
read explanations of mandalas in Tibetan Buddhism i find that your
explanation is similar (structurally) to theirs.
> >>>>>secondly the practices are rather similar. the recitation of Nam Myoho
> Renge Kyo and the recitation of mantras are no different as a form of
> practice>>>>>
>
> It is fairly obvious from our discourse that our practices are different as
> night and
> day. It is true all Mantras are composed of words just as rivers and sea are
> composed of water. Yet they are different. The meanings are different, the
> import is different, the causes, effects and conditions are different.
it is not obvious at all to me that the differences are significant at
all. i have attended Nichiren services and read about (and hope to
attend someday as education) Tibetan services.
> >>>>> furthermore both are rather exclusively concerned with bodhisattva
> practice.>>>>>
>
> No. Nichiren Buddhists dispense with the practices of the Six Perfections
> except that of the Perfection of Wisdom.
that's enough to establish the connection. a bodhisattva's principal
practice is practice of vows. the Six Perfections are not the only
formula of practice in Tibetan Buddhism either.
>"Medicine King! If any bodhisattva, on
> hearing this Law Flower Sutra, is startled, doubts and fears, you may know that
> this is a bodhisattva neophyte." Why does the Buddha say this in the Lotus
> Sutra? One reason is because the practice of the Lotus Sutra is so very
> difficult. Another reason is that to read, recite, and ponder and teach others
> indicates that we have served tens of quintillians of Buddhas in our past
> existences.
the vow to teach others and to read write and recite and study is a
bodhisattva vow. so we agree again that Tibetan and Nichiren Buddhism
share bodhisattva practice.
tjn
>
> tjn, you write:
>
> Rogowdoc wrote:
> >
> > A comparison of Tibetian Buddhism and Nichiren Buddhism(from a Nichiren
> > Priest)
> >
> [del]
>
> > "In our regular conversion efforts, we sometimes encounter questions
> > about Tibetan Buddhism. In this country some people are familiar with
> > Tibetan Buddhism, and since it is not mentioned in Nichiren Daishonin's
> > writings, I want to tell you how we should deal with people's confusion
> > between it and True Buddhism.
> >
> > Prior to the arrival of Buddhist missionaries from India, the religion
> > of Tibet was a hybrid form of shamanism known as Bon. Bon is believed
> > to have been a blend of ancient shamanism with Buddhist concepts from
> > India and Mithraism from Persia. Exoteric Buddhism, both Hinayana and
> > Mahayana, first arrived in Tibet in the seventh century. This was
> > followed in the eighth century by the arrival of Esoteric Buddhism.
> > Tibetan Buddhism is the amalgamation of Hinayana, Mahayana, and Esoteric
> > Buddhism with pre-Buddhist Bon into a Tibetan form of Esoteric Buddhism.
>
> denomination)>>>>>
>
> case.
on the contrary your post has persuaded me more fully that it is the
case. Nichiren only removed some Vajrayana practices but left the core
Vajrayana practices in place: ritual, mantra, mandala.
> >>>>>...arises from folk religions that include shamanic elements. it
> originated possibly with shamanisms that were popular in Bengal and Assam
> before moving north and south within India. it is true that Tibetan Buddhism
> adapted Vajrayana by adding elements from Tibetan shamanisms and also the Bon
> religion. it is also true that the south
> Indian Vajrayana that arrived in China incorporated Chinese and Japanese
> shamanisms during the formation of the T'ien-t'ai and Tendai sects. in
> particular the Japanese shugendo shamanism played a pivotal role in
> modifying slightly the forms of practice. much as Bon and Tibetan
> shamanism modified north Indian Vajrayana to produce Tibetan Buddhism,
> Chinese and Japanese shamanism modified south Indian Vajrayana to bring
> forth Tendai and Nichiren Buddhism.>>>>>
>
> Please provide some documentation in the writings of Tientai, the founder of
> the Tientai Buddhism. Citing his writings on Nagarjuna will not suffice because
> other schools such as Madhyamika arose from the teachings of Nagarjuna and in
> fact Tientai is a evolution of Madhyamika thought.
Chih-i (T'ien-t'ai) said that his school was capable of carrying all of
Buddhism: Hinayana and Mahayana, exoteric and esoteric.
> >>>>now before any Theravada person gets ready to proclaim "victory", there
> is ample documentation of the fact that in southeast Asia local shamanisms
> shaped local customs. see Lopez's _Buddhism in Practice_ where even the
> Abhidharma is shown to have shamanic uses.>>>>>
>
> Victorious, the Therevadans? I don't think so. They haven't been victorius
> since the time of Vasabandu's conversion.
Vasubandhu was never Theravada he was Sarvastivada. Theravada practice
continues to be successful. so successful that boasting of victory would
be regarded by Theravada as rather crude.
> >>>>>so Nichiren Buddhism, coming from Tendai is very much like Tibetan
> Buddhism in the history of influences. only the influences are a little
> different.>>>>>
>
> No.
Yes.
> >>>>>to requote the writer:
> > Tibetan Buddhism is the amalgamation of Hinayana, Mahayana, and Esoteric
> > Buddhism with pre-Buddhist Bon into a Tibetan form of Esoteric Buddhism.
>
> and one can equally well say that
>
> Tendai and Nichiren Buddhism are the amalgamation of Hinayana, Mahayana
> and Esoteric Buddhism with pre-Buddhist Chinese and Japanese shamanism into
> Japanese forms of Esoteric Buddhism.>>>>>
>
> You have said alot here. Could you please offer up some proof.
proof is possible only in mathematics. we are dealing with issues that
are subject to interpretation. one can only offer an argument which one
can see or not. however any decent history of Buddhism in China offers
up many arguments that there is a deep connection between Nichiren
Buddhism and Vajrayana. T'ien-t'ai incorporated esoteric practices such
as mantra, mandala and mudra into ritual. this is well known. since the
T'ien-t'ai school gave rise to Saicho's Tendai school in Japan and since
Nichiren revered Chih-i T'ien-t'ai and Saicho the connection is as clear
as day.
tjn
Yes.
this will be my final post in this series.
tjn
oh Tibetan and Tendai folks have true buddhisms for this day and age,
however they are polite enough not to boast that they have the Only True
Buddhism.
tjn
>
> >>>>>>Vajrayana Buddhism in general (of which Nichiren Buddhism is a
> >denomination)>>>>>
> >
>
> Mikkyo could almost be considered the Japanese equivalent.
>
> Nichiren Buddhism... I don't think so. Not by any stretch of the
> imagination.
if you are prepared to deny that Namu Myoho Renge Kyo is a mantra
if you are prepared to deny that the Gohonzon is a mandala
if you are prepared to deny that Nichiren believed himself to be the
Boddhisattva of Supreme Action Visistacaritra
if you are prepared to deny that Nichiren's rituals are connected
with true Tendai rituals
then you might sincerely deny a connection.
tjn
>
> In article <37D2E229...@worldnet.att.net>, tjn <ryu...@worldnet.att.net>
> writes:
>
> >is ample documentation of the fact that in southeast Asia local
> >shamanisms shaped local customs. see Lopez's _Buddhism in Practice_
> >where even the Abhidharma is shown to have shamanic uses.
>
> confirm the presence of both shamanism and animism in Thai Buddhism. In fact,
> I suspect that there is no school more affected by these things than Theravada.
>
> Do you think that it is about time that we became a little less defensive about
> differences in our traditions?
indeed. absolutely. _but_:
if anyone starts on "Zen is the child of Buddhism and Taoism" that will
_still_ get a rise from me because it negelects the contribution of
Confucianism and Chinese and Japanese shamanism to Zen. Buddhism +
Taoism = Zen is too simplistic to hold water.
actually since Theravada accepts the 3 vehicles (arahant,
pratyekabuddha, bodhisattva) i can't see Theravada as being _separate
and distinct_ from Mahayana.
Theravad
<julia...@clara.net> writes:
>Aren't we lucky that he spoke English.
>
Good point but translating the words from Pali to English is quite simple, it
is the concept behind the words that must be studied and contemplated. I
suspect the same was true even for the Buddha's contemporaries.
margaret
Theravad wrote in message <19990906122752...@ngol03.aol.com>...
>In article <7qs9ab$7k0$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, "margaret"
><marg...@mdebethlen.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>
>>Dating is not certain (it rarely is), but my understanding of the
situation
>>is that originally the Aryans came to Iran from S Russia via
>>Caucasus/Dardanelles.
>
>Interesting ,Margret, but I place the center of emigration a little to the
>north and a bit east of where you suggest. This would place the Cradle of
>Spirituality somewhere in central Russia, east of the Urals. This is a
gues of
>course but recent evidence supports it.
Which recent evidence? Can you point me in the direction of any literature?
Do you mean
The discovery of Caucasian mummies at
>the Tarim Basin in China
(I doubt it because you appear to have narrowed down your area quite
specifically).
>and the Kurgan Digs
Where are they? Any websites? What have they found?
> Now for the blockbuster, the Judeao-Christian tradition began in Ur, not
far
>from the the Gnostic Iranian Civililization which produced Zoroastrianism
and
>the Vedas. Abram left the Hittite/Hattian weather god, Taru to serve a God
>with no name.
This is a perfectly plausible suggestion to my mind : There are very clear
links between the figure of Jesus and Mithras, & even earlier links.
>Because the Iranian link has yet to be firmly established, many scholars
>attribute Middle Eastern Spirituality to the Anatolians who migrated into
>Greece and Turkey. linguistic, cultural and spiritual patterns make it
almos
>impossible not to believbe in the Iranian connection.
I agree with you. How on earth do they attribute it to the Anatolians? My
fading memories of Çatal Hüyük only bring up Aurochs-worship and mother
godesses. Seems a bit of a long shot!
PS (Theravad said) : "Would it be asking too much for you to call me
"sweetie" sometime? i am a lonely old man and it would brighten my day!"
Will anyone do?
Sweetiesweetiesweetiesweetiesweetiesweetiesweetiesweetiesweetiesweetiesweeti
esweetiesweetiesweetiesweetiesweetiesweetiesweetiesweetiesweetiesweetie
There ya go! How can you feel lonely in a cosy, chummy, "one big happy
family" place like trb?!!!
M
margaret
>Do you think that it is about time that we became a little less defensive
about
>differences in our traditions?
Hooray! 3 cheers for Theravad! After all, defensiveness always suggests a
lack of true confidence to me...
M
Tang Huyen
margaret wrote:
tjn <ryu...@worldnet.att.net>: <<now before any Theravada person gets ready to
proclaim "victory", there is ample documentation of the fact that in southeast
Asia local shamanisms shaped local customs. see Lopez's _Buddhism in Practice_
where even the Abhidharma is shown to have shamanic uses.>>
Theravad: <<Absolutely, tjn! As a Theravadin who has lived in Thailand for 4
years, I can confirm the presence of both shamanism and animism in Thai
Buddhism. In fact, I suspect that there is no school more affected by these
things than Theravada.
Do you think that it is about time that we became a little less defensive about
differences in our traditions?>>
margaret: <<Hooray! 3 cheers for Theravad! After all, defensiveness always
suggests a lack of true confidence to me...>>
So you go out of your way to dilute Buddhism by claiming it as an indistinct
Hindu religion just like any other Hindu religion, right, Margaret?
Tang Huyen
tjn
i think this rather misses the point. there are many "shamanic"
influences in Buddhist practices. there are Confucian and Taoist and
Chinese shamanic influences in Chinese Chan. in Japanese Zen there are
additional shamanic and Shinto influences. so to single out "Hindu"
seems to reveal a particular bias.
now Thich Nhat Hanh has made an interesting argument that the enumerated
stages of dhyana/jhana indicates the incorporation of Hindu/Jain yoga
into early practice before the canon was committed to writing. it is a
pretty persuasive argument. so at every stage in the received literature
one can be certain of a certain amount of Hindu influence. the Chinese
canon has it as much as the Theravada canon. it just has it differently.
the exercise of reconstructing a Buddhism of "what the Buddha taught" is
interesting and useful. it makes clear that either substantializing a
basis or "nihilizing" a basis is wrong and it makes clear that there is
a core Buddhism that is independent of cultural adaptations. what that
"core" consists of will depend upon the person doing the reconstruction.
opinions will vary.
however supportive such an exercise may be to a practice, it cannot
_replace_ practicing with the body as well. once you recognize that
there is a necessity to practice physically and with the mind in
addition to intellectually (since intellect is not even most of mind)
then some cultural accretions immediately appear. for instance, in
practicing mindfuleness while eating do you eat with fingers,
chopsticks, the Sino-Japanese bowl kit, or Western implements?
gaining an intellectual understanding on one's own is fine. but to
actualy practice, a group is essential and then cultural accretions
naturally appear. solitary intellectualizing has the potential of being
a self congratulatory trap.
one needn't fear practicing with any group as long as that practice
helps one to understand with whole body and mind (and not merely
intellectually) that all things are not-self, are impermanent, are not
ultimately satisfactory, and that Nirvana is contentment and peace in
body and mind. Nirvana is different from the satisfaction of creating a
pleasing intellectual edifice since such edifices are not self and must
be falsifiable (impermanent and not satisfactory) if it is not a mere
mathematical tautology.
Tang Huyen
tjn wrote: <<now Thich Nhat Hanh has made an interesting argument that the enumerated
stages of dhyana/jhana indicates the incorporation of Hindu/Jain yoga into early
practice before the canon was committed to writing. it is a pretty persuasive
argument. so at every stage in the received literature one can be certain of a
certain amount of Hindu influence. the Chinese canon has it as much as the Theravada
canon. it just has it differently.>>
The Buddha never denied that the worldly part of his teaching is shared with outside
teachings, such as the four form meditations and the four formless attainments. Two
of his teachers taught him the highest two formless attainments respectively. But the
world-transcending part of his teaching is unshared with outside teachings, such as
they were in his Indian milieu. He however admitted that the Law was an inherent part
of the universe, and that anybody could discover it, after him by following his
teaching or even entirely independently of him altogether. Regarding the meditative
states, the ninth and last one, the attainment of cessation, is Buddhist and does not
exist (is not found in) outside teachings. Ditto with the orientation toward
dispassion, detachment, letting-go, etc. Outside of Buddhism, the super-natural
states and powers are cultivated as ends in themselves, in Buddhism they are
cultivated as mere means toward dispassion, detachment, letting-go, etc. Indeed these
last -- dispassion, detachment, letting-go, etc. -- can be cultivated directly by
themselves, without regard for, e. g., the four form meditations and the four
formless attainments.
tjn: <<the exercise of reconstructing a Buddhism of "what the Buddha taught" is
interesting and useful. it makes clear that either substantializing a basis or
"nihilizing" a basis is wrong and it makes clear that there is a core Buddhism that
is independent of cultural adaptations. what that "core" consists of will depend upon
the person doing the reconstruction. opinions will vary.>>
The only basis accepted in Buddhism is the Law, which governs the universe, but it is
no longer mentated by the sage.
tjn: <<however supportive such an exercise may be to a practice, it cannot _replace_
practicing with the body as well. once you recognize that there is a necessity to
practice physically and with the mind in addition to intellectually (since intellect
is not even most of mind) then some cultural accretions immediately appear. for
instance, in practicing mindfuleness while eating do you eat with fingers,
chopsticks, the Sino-Japanese bowl kit, or Western implements?>>
This is totally silly. The mindfulness part (the structure) does *not* vary, it
applies to *all* that one does, only what one does (the content) varies. You
apparently have never learnt to make the distinction between content and structure.
Tang Huyen
tjn
>
> In article <37D412F7...@worldnet.att.net>, tjn <ryu...@worldnet.att.net>
> writes:
>
> >indeed. absolutely. _but_:
> >if anyone starts on "Zen is the child of Buddhism and Taoism" that will
> >_still_ get a rise from me because it negelects the contribution of
> >Confucianism and Chinese and Japanese shamanism to Zen. Buddhism +
> >Taoism = Zen is too simplistic to hold water.
> >
>
> but us dumb Theravadins did not recognize what a great treasure we had. Only
> the Forest Tradition has developed Zen to any extent. The Ox-herding Pictures
> can be traced directly back to a commentary on a Sutta!
Buddhadassa Bhikku is very Zen in flavor BTW....
> I am in no way suggesting that "mine is better than yours" but it does point to
> the interrelationships we often overlook in our greed for sectarian strife (not
> directed at you).
agreed. there are passages in the Sutta Niipata that sound so much like
Uchiyama roshi. there is a deep affinity in dharma view between
Theravada and Zen and forms of Tibetan Buddhist practice.
tjn
>
[snip agreements until]
>
> tjn: <<however supportive such an exercise may be to a practice, it cannot _replace_
> practicing with the body as well. once you recognize that there is a necessity to
> practice physically and with the mind in addition to intellectually (since intellect
> is not even most of mind) then some cultural accretions immediately appear. for
> instance, in practicing mindfuleness while eating do you eat with fingers,
> chopsticks, the Sino-Japanese bowl kit, or Western implements?>>
>
> This is totally silly. The mindfulness part (the structure) does *not* vary, it
> applies to *all* that one does, only what one does (the content) varies. You
> apparently have never learnt to make the distinction between content and structure.
actually i have unlearned it. the distinction between content and
structure is just a pale reflection of the artificially mentated mind
body distinction. they are not two. practice in a group requires a
choice of form. if you drive a road in a semitrailer and in a sports car
the journeys _are_ different.
Alaya
> Actually, the Shingon teachings were brought to Japan by Dengyo.
However,
> in Dengyo's Ebyo Sho(A Clarification of the Sects Based on Tientai's
Doctrines)
> he renounces Shingon as a component of the Tientai sect.
>
> Mark
This isn't a commonly held opinion - the Japanes Shingon Sects will tell you
that it was Kukai, the Kobo-Daishi that brought Shingon to Japan.
Alaya
Alaya
Alaya
Rogowdoc <rogo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990906120838...@ng-fi1.aol.com...
Rogowdoc
Alaya, it is fruitful to compare the different beliefs and practices for the
sake of the seekers of the Way.
Mark
Theravad
>indeed. absolutely. _but_:
>if anyone starts on "Zen is the child of Buddhism and Taoism" that will
>_still_ get a rise from me because it negelects the contribution of
>Confucianism and Chinese and Japanese shamanism to Zen. Buddhism +
>Taoism = Zen is too simplistic to hold water.
>
Wanna go really ballistic? Zen can be traced back at least to the Pali Canon
but us dumb Theravadins did not recognize what a great treasure we had. Only
the Forest Tradition has developed Zen to any extent. The Ox-herding Pictures
can be traced directly back to a commentary on a Sutta!
I am in no way suggesting that "mine is better than yours" but it does point to
Rogowdoc
tjn continues.....
>>>>>Rogowdoc wrote:
>
> Continued......
>
> Since our "root Lamas'', The Eternal Buddha Shakyamuni and his messenger
> Nichiren Daishonin are the Original "root Lamas" of all Buddhas and
> Bodhisattvas, the causes, effects and conditions of our devotion differs.
>>>>>not so. you would need to establish that Tibetan Buddhism does not revere
the same Shakyamuni. true they do not revere Nichiren but having Shakyamuni in
common is more important. the Lotus Sutra is very important in Tibetan
Buddhism. it has been preserved in Sanskrit in many manuscript copies in
monasteries in Nepal and Tibet.>>>>>
I'm sure Honen, Fa-tsang, and Kobo Daishi had copies of the Lotus Sutra too
but they were hardly votaries of the Lotus Sutra. The tibetians subsume
Shakyamuni into the Fourth Jewel of the Lama, a teaching not even found in the
provisional Mahayana sutras let alone the Kegon, Nirvana and Lotus Sutras. Just
recently, a Lama brought to my attentian that the Dalai Lama was refusing to
teach the Nirvana Sutra because of its purported emphasis on violence. If he
doesn't even understand the Nirvana Sutra it is obvious he doesn't understand
the Lotus Sutra. Tientai clarified that the Nirvana Sutra was the epilogue to
the Lotus Sutra(the so-called Hokke-Nehan period of the Buddha's preaching.).
The tibetians are a strange breed indeed
>>>>>Rogowdoc wrote:
>
> Continued......
>
> Since our "root Lamas'', The Eternal Buddha Shakyamuni and his messenger
> Nichiren Daishonin are the Original "root Lamas" of all Buddhas and
> Bodhisattvas, the causes, effects and conditions of our devotion differs.
>>>>>not so. you would need to establish that Tibetan Buddhism does not revere
the same Shakyamuni.>>>>>
They don't even revere Shakyamuni, let alone the Master of Teachings Lord
Shakya of the Original Doctrine. They give lip service to Shakyamuni.
Shakyamuni is subsumed in the Fourth Jewel of the Tibetian Dharma. If they
really revered Shakyamuni, there would be no Tibetian Buddhism.
>>>>>true they do not revere Nichiren but having Shakyamuni in common is more
important. the Lotus Sutra is very
important in Tibetan Buddhism. it has been preserved in Sanskrit in many
manuscript copies in monasteries in Nepal and Tibet.>>>>>
This has already been discussed. see above.
>>>>>> You continue:
>
> >>>>>fourthly both schools believe in the incarnation of Bodhisattvas in
> palpable human form. Nichiren believed himself and is believed by followers
to
> be the incarnation of the Boddhisattva of Supreme Action Visistacaritra much
as
> Tibetan Buddhists believe the Dalai Lama to be
> the incarnation of the Bodhisattva of Supreme Compassion Avalokitesvara.>>>>>
>
> It is impossible that the Dalai Lama is an incarnation of Bodhisattva
> Reguarder of the Cries of the World.
actually i have never met a human being who is _not_ to some degree a
manifestation of Avalokitesvara! even you...>>>>>
There are three aspects to existence, according to the teachings of the
Lotus Sutra, manifest existence, potentiality or latency, and the Middle Way.
We are indeterminate seeds(Middle Way) for all the Ten Realms. We have the
potentiality to grow into various trees(Realms) such as Bodhisattva or Asuras,
depending on the conditions such, soil(faith), water(practice) and
sunlight(study). Only when the beliefs, practice and study is correct will a
seed become a manifest Bodhisattva or Buddha. Polluted water, depleted soil or
lack of sunlight will only succeed in making a fern or a withered tree. A
Redwood(Bodhisattva Reguarder of the Cries of the World), can only be realized
through the faith in the Eternal Buddha, practice of the Myoho renge kyo(The
Lotus Sutra) and Studying the Buddhist Sutras to the best of one's ability. The
teachings of Tibetian Lamas are is if soiling a seed with infinite
potential(you and me), in depleted soil, pouring polluted water on it and
covering it with a drape.
>>>>> When offerings are made to Bodhisattva
> Reguarder of the Cries of the World he defers and passes them on to Buddha
> Shakyamuni and Buddha Abundant Treasures. The Dalai Lama does neither.
all offerings are offered to all Buddhas ultimately so this statement is
false.>>>>>
The Lotus Sutra is very clear. The Lotus Sutra is the Teaching by which all
Buddhas throughout the Three Existences attain Buddhahood. therefore, only when
an offering is made to Myoho renge kyo or the Buddha of the Original Doctrine
can it be considered an offering to al Buddhas.
>>>>>> Neither
> does he practice reading, reciting and causing others to read and recite the
> Lotus Sutra.
i have dealt with the inaccuracy of this above. Tibetan monasteries have
been invaluable resources for investigation of the original Sanskrit
text of the Lotus Sutra where numerous old manuscript copies have been
uncovered. futhermore the Lotus is in the Tibetan canon. every time the
canon is copied the Lotus is copied!>>>>>
Of all the practices of the Lotus Sutra that of copying and causing others
to copy is the lowest. Reading the Lotus Sutra [with one's life] as Nichiren
did, is the most difficult and meritworthy. Today, even copy machines can copy
the Sutra and more efficiently than the Tibetian Buddhist monks.
To be continued.......
Mark
Theravad
>This is totally silly. The mindfulness part (the structure) does *not* vary,
>it
>applies to *all* that one does, only what one does (the content) varies. You
>apparently have never learnt to make the distinction between content and
>structure.
>
I guess I am stupid but I can't understand this mindfulness thing as taught by
many modern teachers. As near as I can see, Hanh teaches about staring at
peaches and holding warm cups of tea. What does this have to do with
mindfulness? I thought mindfulness had more to do with internal states rather
than watching an ant take a crap. If the world is an Illusion what good does
it do to be mindful of it?
In fact, this approach to mindfulness seems to teach exactly the opposite of
what the Buddha intended, focusing attention on the world surely cannot be what
the Buddha meant. Maybe it is just me?
Theravad
Theravad
writes:
>i think this rather misses the point. there are many "shamanic"
>influences in Buddhist practices. there are Confucian and Taoist and
>Chinese shamanic influences in Chinese Chan. in Japanese Zen there are
>additional shamanic and Shinto influences. so to single out "Hindu"
>seems to reveal a particular bias.
>
In the practice, perhaps, but there is very little of shamanism in the
Buddhadhamma, if i understand it correctly. I do believe that the vision of
God that the Buddha may have experienced was much like the Tao because like the
Taoists he refused to define or comment on it. There is even an unproven
theory that Taoism divided in central Asia with one branch going to China and
one branch going to India.
Although the Buddha rejected Gnosticism, there is much of Gnosticism in the
Buddhadhamma. Gnosticism tends to be highly metaphysical but the Buddha
repudiated metaphysics in favor of direct experience. He constructed a safe and
sure Path by which all can experience directly what he refused to name.
Singling out Hinduism may not be as unreasonable as it seems as Hinduism was
created as a reaction against the Buddhadhamma. The Buddha opposed Vedic
othodoxy and, in my opinion, returned to the original Vedic vision which have
become very corrupted in his time. Vedanta (The End or Fulfillment of the
Vedas) was an orthodox movement designed to counteract the heterodoxy of the
Buddha. no two systems of thought are more opposite than Hinduism and
Buddhism. The former is based on Duality but the latter is based on Unity.
>>now Thich Nhat Hanh has made an interesting argument that the enumerated
stages of dhyana/jhana indicates the incorporation of Hindu/Jain yoga
into early practice before the canon was committed to writing.
Thich Nhat Hanh is a very dangerous man.
Theravad
>So you go out of your way to dilute Buddhism by claiming it as an indistinct
>Hindu religion just like any other Hindu religion, right, Margaret?
>
Does it really matter what Margaret claims? We both know that the notion is
completely absurd, there is no need to rub anyone's nose in it, is there?
Alaya
But why by one particular sutra - instead of the complete body of sutras
that are available? Also, in reading some of your earlier posts, it seems to
me that you believe that the Flower Lotus sutra and the practices that you
practice as a Buddhist are the most superior and the other are flawed or
decietful - Am I correct that this is what you are arguing for?
Alaya
Rogowdoc <rogo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990906210324...@ng-fi1.aol.com...
Theravad
<al...@iname.com> writes:
>But why by one particular sutra - instead of the complete body of sutras
>that are available?
This is a common pattern among world religions. When society changes and no
longer accept the founding tenets of the parent system of thought, a new
revelation is discovered or invented which "fulfills" the meaning of the old.
The old becomes a relic, honored but largely ignored while the new becomes "the
law". Thus the thought system no longer represents its founding principles but
the new society which created it. We see this repeated several times in the
Vedas and Vedanta is another example. The New Testament, which distorts or
omits much of the teachings of Jesus replaced the Old and the baby was thrown
out with the bathwater. Sic semper transit (pardon, Tang!).
I subscribe to the theory of entrophy, all change leads to disintegration.
Occasionaly a Buddha or a Jesus appears who temporarily reverses this trend but
the trend itself is dhamma, inescapable.
Theravad
writes:
>agreed. there are passages in the Sutta Niipata that sound so much like
>Uchiyama roshi. there is a deep affinity in dharma view between
>Theravada and Zen and forms of Tibetan Buddhist practice.
>
You don't suppose the Sutta Nipata was copied from Uchiyama roshi, do you? ( :
We sometime forget that impermanence applies to all things and Theravada is no
exception. My teacher (in spirit) Ajahn Chan is a recognized Zen master and I
do not find this at all unusual. The Forest tradition has always been
Zen-like, even before Zen was invented but Theravada in general is becoming a
"church". The Original Teachings are being learned by rote, administration has
become increasingly important, and a professional clergy has arisen. I would
lament these tendencies but what is the point of lamenting "anicca"? The world
turns and will always turn until it too crumbles.
As the Buddha said, the only refuge from suffering, impermanence and lack of
permanent essence is found inside so i have tried to light a lamp, build an
island.
Titeri-san
during the short period of a month and a half while waiting for a return
ship to japan at the end of his stay in China, was eager to further his
knowledge, and began to borrow texts from kukai. in the eleven month of 812
Kukai gave esoteric initiation in the kongo kai mandala to a small group,
including Saicho, at takoasan-ji. the next month he performed a similar
initiation in the taizo mandala for a group of some 145, among whom were
Saicho and some of his top disciples as well as high ranking priest from
nara. These events mark the begining of Kukai's rise to prominence as a
religious leader.
When Saicho requested the highest initiation that would qualify him as a
master, Kukai replied that further study and shingon practice would first be
necessary. Saicho sent several disciples, including his favorite, Taihan
778-837, to study with kukai at takaosan-ji. Altough Saicho sent many
letters requesting Taihan to return to the tendai center being built on
hiei-zan, taihan stayed as kukai disciple.
The main difference between these two towering figures of heian buddism,
however, probably lay in their approch to mikkyo. Saicho consider mikkyo to
be one of the complete tendai teaching, wich was comprise the lotus sutra,
mikkyo, meditation, and the precept.Kukai on the other hand, considered
mikkyo to be the fullfillment of all buddhist teaching. When Saicho later
requested the loan of an esoteric sutra commentary, kukai refused on the
ground that mikkyo that mikkyo can not be learned by simply reading texts,
and some texts in particular required preparation by esoteric pratice to be
understood correctly.
shingon subsequently had considerable influence on the esoteric aspects of
Tendai.
Shingon by Taiko Yamasaki ed shambala
It's obvious that mantra (daimoku) practice and the Nichiren mandala come
directly from shingon mikkyo (guyayana) even if this fact has been oculted
after.
gassho
titeri_san
http://members.xoom.com/_XOOM/mollandin/history2.htm
Namo Daishi henjo kongo
Tang Huyen
Theravad wrote:
Evelyn Ruut: <<No one method speaks to all people.>>
Theravad: <<Even the Buddhadhamma does not speak to all people, only those
with ears!>>
Bravo, Theravad!
Therefore, shouldn' it be expected that those who have no ears for the
Buddhadhamma should leave the Buddhadhamma to the Buddhists -- those who are
stupid enough to follow the Buddha's teaching? Like, um, the teaching of
no-self?
Shouldn't it be expected that those who have no ears for the Buddhadhamma
should leave the Buddhadhamma and go elsewhere for their salvation or
whatever it is that they want?
Tang Huyen
Alaya
Alaya
Titeri-san <titer...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:7r3n2j$dm1$1...@front7.grolier.fr...
Rogowdoc
Continued, a Converstaion with tjn
>>>>>> Not one person has been saved by the Dalai Lama but tens of billions of
trillions of countless of beings have been saved by Bodhisattva Reguarder of
the Cries of the World.
how do you know that not one person has been saved by the Dalai Lama? i rather
think that there are many people who would claim they have!>>>>>
Many claim to have attained what they have not. The Buddha instructs: "Follow
the Law and not the Person." How can one be saved following the person rather
than the Law? Tibetian Buddhism is based on the person of the Lama not the Law
of Shakyamuni Buddha.
> >>>>>fifthly, it should be no surprise that there are similarities between
> Nichiren and Tibetan Buddhism. both are esoteric Buddhist schools.>>>>>
>
> This is very wrong. The practice of the Lotus Sutra is an exoteric
practice.
> The Lotus Sutra is the exoteric work of Mahayana Buddhism.
>>>>>although you are correct that the Lotus is an exoteric work you ignore
the fact that Nichiren's ritual is an esoteric one and that he comes from an
ordination lineage (Saicho the Tendai founder in Japan and Chih-i in China)
which performed many esoteric rituals.>>>>>
Prayer is an esoteric ritual? The ordination lineage of Nichiren is based on
Chapter 21 of the Lotus Sutra( the place where this Sutra is practiced is the
throne of Enlightenment) and the 18th Chapter(he who secretly teaches this
Sutra, to even one other person, is an envoy of the Buddha). Other important
rituals such as offering flowers and incense and making obeisance have been
practiced since the time of the Buddha and before.. Even the Eye Opening
Ceremony derives from an exoteric work, the Nirvana Sutra. People have
worshiped wooden and painted images of the Buddha since after the Buddha's
passing into Nirvana. In no way are any of these ceremonies derived from the
esoteric texts or practices.
>>>>>the use of mantra (Namu Myoho Renge Kyo) and mandala (the Gohonzon) is in
common with esoteric schools such as Tibetan Buddhism.>>>>>
It shares similarities with the pali chants and earliest objects of worship
and even the Christian chants and objects of devotion [because, once again, all
rivers run into the sea.]
>>>>>Nichiren's own belief that he is Boddhisattva of Supreme Action
Visistacaritra further indicates a connection with esoteric Buddhism.>>>>>
The Lotus Sutra is connected to all teachings because once again, all rivers
run into the great ocean.
>>>>> it is more subtle and shaded than you represent it to be.>>>>>
It is as obvious and simple as the Buddha's statement: "Among all the
Sutras it holds the highest place."
>>>>>>Nichiren started in the Tendai school and learned much Vajrayana in the
> Tendai school and Nichiren used Vajrayana rituals throughout his career.>>>>>
>
> True Tendai reject Vajrayana. Here is what Nichiren says about the
> Vajrayana(esoteric or Shingon rituals) rituals:
> :
> "Unless one who has grasped the essence of the Lotus Sutra conducts the eye
> opening ceremony for a wooden or painted image, it will be as if a masterless
> house were to be occupied by a thief or as if, upon a person's death, a demon
> were to enter his body. When, in present day Japan, eye opening ceremonies
for
> the Buddha images are conducted according to the Shingon rite, demons occupy
> them and deprive people of their lives, for a
> demon is known as a "robber of life." Moreover, devils enter those images
> and deprive people of benefits, and another name for a devil is a "robber of
> benefits." Because the people worship demons, they will bring the country to
> ruin in their present lifetime, and because they revere devils,
> they will fall into the hell of incessant suffering in their next existence."
> MW 4:35
>>>>>fine, but it impies only that he didn't like _Shingon_ esoteric rituals.
he certainly liked the esoteric rituals that are practiced by even pure
Tendai!>>>>>
See above. There is nothing at all esoteric to the Lotus Sutra and
teachings of Nichiren.
>>>>>ultimately although he criticized some Tendai and all Shingon sect
rituals, Nichiren used Tendai rituals that have their origin in esoteric
Buddhism.>>>>>
This isn't the only thing stolen by Shingon. in order to compete with the
lofty teachings of the Lotus Sutra it had no choice. As early as Shan-wu-wei,
the Shingon was coopting Tientai's ideas such as Three Thousand Worlds in a
Momentary Existence of Life.
>>>>>i have Nichiren friends whom i have shown ritual patterns that are common
to Zen, Pure Land, and Tibetan Buddhism. they find nothing ritually incorrect
by Nichiren Buddhism standards in them. you need to do more research on the
nature of ritual in Buddhism.>>>>>
I think I have proven otherwise.
> >>>>>thus one must conclude that there is no basis for saying that the
practice
> forms are fundamentally different.>>>>>
>
> There many errors in your understanding of Nichiren Buddhism. However, Since
> you have responded to my post, I will continue to answer as best as I can in
> the hopes that you will at least incorporate Namu Myoho renge kyo into your
> practices.
i don't think that there are many errors on my part at all. as fart>>>>>
A karmic faux pas???
>>>>>as incorporating Namu Myoho Renge Kyo in my practice, you are too late. at
the traditional meal service in Soto Zen 10 Buddha's are named. since one is
the title of the Lotus Sutra, all Soto Zen monks have paid reverence to the
Lotus Sutra from before Nichiren was born.>>>>>
In name only.
Mark
Rogowdoc
Hi alaya. you write:
>>>>Yes, I agree in this. But why by one particular sutra - instead of the
complete body of sutras that are available?>>>>>
I think if you read my posts, you will see cited many different Sutras.
>>>>> Also, in reading some of your earlier posts, it seems to me that you
believe that the Flower Lotus sutra and the practices that you practice as a
Buddhist are the most superior and the other are flawed or decietful - Am I
correct that this is what you are arguing for?>>>>>
Yes. I must speak out even though I do not exhibit the compassion of my
Master, Nichiren Daishonin.
Mark
Rogowdoc
tjnn, you write:
>>>>>this will be my final post in this series.>>>>>
Ok.I think we have already made our points.
Mark
Rogowdoc
I thought you had posted your last post?
Ok, knock yourself out tjnn.
Mark
Rogowdoc
"In this world there are three wrong viewpoints. If one clings to these
viewpoints, then all things in this world are but to be denied. First, some say
that all human experience is based on destiny; second, some hold that
everything is created by God and controlled by His will; third, some say that
everything happens by chance without having any cause or condition.
If all has been decided by destiny, both good deeds and evil deeds are
predetermined, weal and woe are predestined; nothing would exist that has
not been foreordained. Then all human plans and efforts for improvement and
progress would be in vain and humanity would be without hope.
The same is true of the other viewpoints, for , if everything in the last
resort is in the hands of an unknowable God, or of blind chance, what hope has
humanity except in submission? It is no wonder that people holding these
conceptions lose hope and neglect efforts to act wisely and to avoid
evil.
In fact, these three conceptions or viewpoints are all wrong: everything
is a succession of appearance whose source is the accumulation of causes
and conditions."
From the Avatamsaka(Kegon or Flower Garland Sutra)
Mark
Alaya
Actually, you emulate him it seems, in your outspoken disdain of other
Buddhists. He had a lot to say about many other Buddhists, Zen Buddhism too
if I recall, and it was mainly along the same lines as what you are saying,
but I think he went so far as to say that they were devils or something to
that effect. further, you say that "This isn't the only thing stolen by
Shingon. in order to compete with the lofty teachings of the Lotus Sutra it
had no choice. As early as Shan-wu-wei, the Shingon was cooping Tientai's
ideas such as Three Thousand Worlds in a Momentary Existence of Life."
So, it's not enough that you just practice your own form of Buddhism, but
you slander the Shingon school as well, thinking that Tientai is the source
of Buddhism, instead of Shakyamuni. Even the holy and much esteemed and
loved Kobo-Daishi isn't above your criticism and contempt. How disgusting
that you even claim to be a Buddhist if you can so readily oppose people and
schools that you have no wisdom or compassion to even begin to be approach
being capable of appraising. it's interesting that you also try to
undervalue Kukai's role in establishing Shingon, as any Japanese scholar,
monk or person in the street could claim to have more knowledge than your
subtle misinterpretations of commonly agreed upon historical facts, that you
so readily side step.
Funnily enough, I agree with your comments on the Dalai Lama and the claim
that he is Avoliketeshavara, but would apply the same skepticism to the
things you hold in such high regard such as Nichiren. Your brand of Buddhism
does indeed seem to rob it's members of compassion, and without such your
faith is disruptive and particularly nasty I suspect as well as completely
useless. Your arguments are dependant on the opposition to other schools to
the point that I wonder what you would have to say if there were no other
schools for you to snipe at.
You do indeed quote other sutras, but only to invalidate them. Not that I
have any particularly favourite sutra in mind. You even go so far as to say
that in name alone, Soto Zen Buddhists incorporate Namu Myoho Renge Kyo in
their practice. Is their anything besides your own cherished opinions that
you don't despise?
If your foul mouth is any indication of what you uphold, then your argument
is not only unconvincing, but a strong argument against what you esteem so
highly. I've never met anyone with your views before and have only read
about them, but have read quite a bit on you esteemed Nichiren, and you do
indeed seem cast from the same back-biting and jealous mold that he himself
was cast from. You seem to have become the perfect student, as Nichiren
himself couldn't contain his unjustified pride and jealousy in back biting
other schools of Buddhism either. You will never be qualified to appraise
any of the schools and sutras you slander, as long as you hold such
perverted views, coupled with an equally perveted lack of non-attainment in
even being able to at the very least speak rightly.
Alaya
tjn
>
[del]
> >>>>>i have Nichiren friends whom i have shown ritual patterns that are common
> to Zen, Pure Land, and Tibetan Buddhism. they find nothing ritually incorrect
> by Nichiren Buddhism standards in them. you need to do more research on the
> nature of ritual in Buddhism.>>>>>
>
> I think I have proven otherwise.
what you have proven is that you don't understand your tradition and
Nichiren's intention in criticizing Shingon and Tendai very well at all.
others have posted the detailed history that demonstrates the connection
with Vajrayana practices. Nichiren's argument was with the fact that
Shingon and Tendai in his time had become exclusive and elitist. the
reason that Honen, Shinran, Dogen, and Nichiren left Tendai was because
of the elitism and dependence of Tendai on wealth. they all kept a bit
of Tendai's Vayrayana ceremonial.
[del]
> >>>>>as incorporating Namu Myoho Renge Kyo in my practice, you are too late. at
> the traditional meal service in Soto Zen 10 Buddha's are named. since one is
> the title of the Lotus Sutra, all Soto Zen monks have paid reverence to the
> Lotus Sutra from before Nichiren was born.>>>>>
>
> In name only.
ther are many worthy Nichiren practitioners who are gracious and free
from sectarian hatred. when my daughter (also a Soto Zen practiioner)
was staying for some months in Japan she was hosted by a wonderful
family in which the mother was a fervent daily Nichiren practiioner and
the father was a Soto Zen adherent. it was no problem that my daughter
sat zazen daily, she was quite welcome.
i hope that your practice deepens.
tjn
>
> In article <37D4742E...@worldnet.att.net>, tjn <ryu...@worldnet.att.net>
> writes:
>
> >agreed. there are passages in the Sutta Niipata that sound so much like
> >Uchiyama roshi. there is a deep affinity in dharma view between
> >Theravada and Zen and forms of Tibetan Buddhist practice.
>
> You don't suppose the Sutta Nipata was copied from Uchiyama roshi, do you? ( :
didn't say that. but i knew of Uchiyama before the Sutta Niipata, of
course. :-)
> We sometime forget that impermanence applies to all things and Theravada is no
> exception. My teacher (in spirit) Ajahn Chan is a recognized Zen master and I
> do not find this at all unusual. The Forest tradition has always been
> Zen-like, even before Zen was invented but Theravada in general is becoming a
> "church". The Original Teachings are being learned by rote, administration has
> become increasingly important, and a professional clergy has arisen. I would
> lament these tendencies but what is the point of lamenting "anicca"? The world
> turns and will always turn until it too crumbles.
the same thing is true in many denominations. there may be a certain
tension or contradiction between civic and personal religion. there are
many church-like Zen places. yet it isn't all bad. simply preserving
forms of practice allows them to become revitalized at the right time.
> As the Buddha said, the only refuge from suffering, impermanence and lack of
> permanent essence is found inside so i have tried to light a lamp, build an
> island.
tea?
tjn
>
> In article <37D4405A...@worldnet.att.net>, tjn <ryu...@worldnet.att.net>
> writes:
>
> >i think this rather misses the point. there are many "shamanic"
> >influences in Buddhist practices. there are Confucian and Taoist and
> >Chinese shamanic influences in Chinese Chan. in Japanese Zen there are
> >additional shamanic and Shinto influences. so to single out "Hindu"
> >seems to reveal a particular bias.
> >
>
> In the practice, perhaps, but there is very little of shamanism in the
> Buddhadhamma, if i understand it correctly.
perhaps so. but even in the Digha Nikaya there is a Sutta or "protective
verses".
> I do believe that the vision of
> God that the Buddha may have experienced was much like the Tao because like the
> Taoists he refused to define or comment on it. There is even an unproven
> theory that Taoism divided in central Asia with one branch going to China and
> one branch going to India.
i have tested Taoist and other forms of meditation as well as doing Zen.
for me Zen and vipassana and Dzogschen are similar as a group, while
yoga (Indian and Taoist) and other Tibetan practices are similar but
distinct as a group. the former have more 'vipashyana' the latter more
'shamatha'.
> Although the Buddha rejected Gnosticism, there is much of Gnosticism in the
> Buddhadhamma. Gnosticism tends to be highly metaphysical but the Buddha
> repudiated metaphysics in favor of direct experience. He constructed a safe and
> sure Path by which all can experience directly what he refused to name.
there is also a residual that might escape experience, like the lotus
that lives unbesmirched by muddy water.
> Singling out Hinduism may not be as unreasonable as it seems as Hinduism was
> created as a reaction against the Buddhadhamma. The Buddha opposed Vedic
> othodoxy and, in my opinion, returned to the original Vedic vision which have
> become very corrupted in his time. Vedanta (The End or Fulfillment of the
> Vedas) was an orthodox movement designed to counteract the heterodoxy of the
> Buddha. no two systems of thought are more opposite than Hinduism and
> Buddhism. The former is based on Duality but the latter is based on Unity.
you are technically quite correct. i was speaking in the looser and less
precise sense of Hinduism as being the indigenous religion of India.
more precisely there is the religion of the Vedas, the religion of the
Brahmanas, and the Hindu religion which emerged as an answer to
Buddhism.
> >>now Thich Nhat Hanh has made an interesting argument that the enumerated
> stages of dhyana/jhana indicates the incorporation of Hindu/Jain yoga
> into early practice before the canon was committed to writing.
>
> Thich Nhat Hanh is a very dangerous man.
it is interesting that he has constructed a "core Buddhism" that is
quite different from others. Tang, FI, has the 8 attainments of the
worlds of form and formlessness + cessation as being the essential
Buddhist addition. TNH has the whole ladder as an importation from
previous yogas.
but why dangerous?
Theravad
writes:
>perhaps so. but even in the Digha Nikaya there is a Sutta or "protective
>verses".
>
Yes, there are concessions to human weakness even in the Nikayas. the Buddha
was no fool but he was long on compassion.
>>but why dangerous?
The Buddha rejected yoga absolutely, the doctrine of anatta makes this
perfectly clear. Yoga means reuniting or joining together as a yoke confines
oxen. To be reunited presupposes seperation and the existence of at least two
seperate things.
In denying atman, the Buddha recognized pure Unity but wisely he refused to
talk about it. Each of us must discover this Unity for ourselves if we are
ever to escape the Wheel. To discover our "Original Face" we must bridge the
seeming gap bethween the other and ourself. Seperation or the gap is purely
based on ignorance and Illusion.
When the Ego (self) has been diminished and controlled, we look upon our
Original Face which is as Thomas Merton said "The face of God". Please use
whatever word you use for God here, it makes no difference, God always remains
nameless, formless and without attributes (even the attribute of being
attributeless).
Theravad
writes:
> simply preserving
>forms of practice allows them to become revitalized at the right time.
great idea!
>>tea?
Yes, Dhamma brand is quite excellent but it takes so long to brew!
Theravad
writes:
>i hope that your practice deepens.
>
>
You took quite a jolt recently, i hope all goes well with you. i think you
have learned to roll with the punches or you would not still be around. you do
come across as doctrinaire and intollerant at times, but that is absolutely
your right, you must follow the Path in front of you as faithfully as you can.
Alaya
Alaya
JulianLZB87
at...
http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/books-frame.html
Japanese Journal of Religious Studies
SPECIAL ISSUE: FALL 1999, 26/3–4
Revisiting Nichiren
Guest Editors: Ruben L. F. Habito & Jacqueline Stone
546. Habito, Ruben L. F., and Jacquiline I. Stone
Revisiting Nichiren: Editors' Introduction. [223-38] (including Nichiren
Bibliography and Chronology, and a Memorial on Takagi Yutaka)
547. Asai Endo
Nichiren Shonin's View of Humanity: The Final Dharma Age and the Three
Thousand Realms in One Thought-Moment [239–60]
548. Sueki Fumihiko
Nichiren's Problematic Works. [261–80]
549. Habito, Ruben L. F.
Bodily Reading of the Lotus Sutra: Understanding Nichiren's Buddhism.
[281–306]
550. Sato Hiroo
Nichiren's View of Nation and Religion [307–24]
551. Deal, William E.
Nichiren's Rissho ankoku ron and Canon Formation [325–48]
552. Dolce, Lucia
Criticism and Appropriation: Nichiren's Attitude toward Esoteric Buddhism.
[349–82]
553. Stone, Jacqueline
Placing Nichiren in the "Big Picture": Some Ongoing Issues in Scholarship.
[383–422]
554. Habito, Ruben L. F.
Review article: The Uses of Nichiren in Modern Japanese History [423–40]
555. Stone, Jacqueline
Review article: Biographical Studies of Nichiren [441–58]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
JulianLZB87
JulianLZB87 wrote in message ...
Rogowdoc
Hi titeri san. I am too busy answering questions about the One Vehicle of the
Lotus Sutra and the True Teachings of Myoho renge kyo to dispell the darkness
of Shingon's distorted history of japanese Buddhism point by point. Suffice it
to say that Saicho(Dengyo) established the Ordination Platform for Obtaining
the Precepts on Mt. Hiei whereby all monks in Japan, both Mahayana and
Hinayana, were ordained and officially recognized. Kobo and his followers must
have been tortured with jealousy to have fabricated such historical untruths as
presented by you
Mark.
tjn
the above is historically imprecise. Saicho established the _second_
ordination platform that was recognized officially but he only used the
~60 precepts of the Mahayana Brahmajala Sutra. the first ordination
platform established was at Todaiji in Nara and used the full
Dharmaguptaka Vinaya. Saicho's ordination platform was _not_ for all
ordinations Mahayana and nonMahayana. it was _exclusively_ Mahayana.
further it was not officially recognized as a Mahayana ordination
platform in Saicho's lifetime. its recognition did not displace Todaiji
as an ordination platform. subsequently, additional temples were also
recognized as ordaining platforms.
Rogowdoc
Thank you Julian for the bibliography.
>>>at...
http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/books-frame.html
Mark
Rogowdoc
Hi Alaya, you write:
>>>>>Even the holy and much esteemed and loved Kobo-Daishi isn't above your
criticism and contempt.>>>>>
Shall we discuss Kobos' or Shan wu-weis' views dispassionately?
>>>> How disgusting that you even claim to be a Buddhist if you can so readily
oppose people and schools that you have no wisdom or compassion to even begin
to be approach being capable of appraising. it's interesting that you also try
to
undervalue Kukai's role in establishing Shingon, as any Japanese scholar,
monk or person in the street could claim to have more knowledge than your
subtle misinterpretations of commonly agreed upon historical facts, that you
so readily side step.>>>>>
You must read more carefully. There is no doubt Kobo established the Shingon
in Japan. The question that I raised was who was the first to bring the Shingon
teachings to Japan, Saicho or Kobo. Saicho would never widely propagate the
Shingon teachings.
>>>>>Funnily enough, I agree with your comments on the Dalai Lama and the claim
that he is Avoliketeshavara, but would apply the same skepticism to the
things you hold in such high regard such as Nichiren. Your brand of Buddhism
does indeed seem to rob it's members of compassion, and without such your
faith is disruptive and particularly nasty I suspect as well as completely
useless>>>>>
Hmmm. Perhaps I hit a nerve. either way, let us all strive to be hard on
ideas and easy on people with the caveat that those men in the forefront of any
movement must be held accountable for their teachings. Shall we discuss some of
the writings of Kobo Daishi? In my next post, I will begin with an exchange I
had with a Shingon adherent two years ago. your comments are welcome.
>>>>>Your arguments are dependant on the opposition to other schools to
the point that I wonder what you would have to say if there were no other
schools for you to snipe at.>>>>>
Suppositions are not the lofty realm of the Buddhas observations. Fact is
fact. there are other schools of Buddhism and they are mere expedient means.
The doctrine of Filial Piety in Buddhism is far more strict than the doctrine
of Filial Piety in Confucianism, for example.
>>>>You do indeed quote other sutras, but only to invalidate them. Not that I
have any particularly favourite sutra in mind. You even go so far as to say
that in name alone, Soto Zen Buddhists incorporate Namu Myoho Renge Kyo in
their practice. Is their anything besides your own cherished opinions that you
don't despise?>>>>>
Hmmm, I must have hit another nerve.
My opinions are overwhelmingly shared by the Original Buddha, Tientai, Dengyo
and Nichiren. My opinions are overwhelmingly despised by the leaders, founders
and adherents of the other sects.To be censured by fools is no great dishonor.
>>>>>If your foul mouth is any indication of what you uphold, then your
argument
is not only unconvincing, but a strong argument against what you esteem so
highly.>>>>>
No doubt, you would wash my mouth out with lye. Such reaction is to be
expected when one's arguments are shallow and have been easily defeated.
>>>>>I've never met anyone with your views before and have only read about
them, but have read quite a bit on you esteemed Nichiren, and you do
indeed seem cast from the same back-biting and jealous mold that he himself was
cast from.>>>>>
When you and your esteemed teachers are long forgotten Nichiren and his
teachings will continue to benefit the masses of beings.
>>>>>You seem to have become the perfect student, as Nichiren himself couldn't
contain his unjustified pride and jealousy in back biting other schools of
Buddhism either.>>>>>
You are obviously ignorant of the profundity of Nichiren's compassionate
practice for the sake of the Lotus Sutra. Neither you nor your teachers could
practice for one day as Nichiren did for more than 30 years.
>>>>> You will never be qualified to appraise any of the schools and sutras you
slander, as long as you hold such
perverted views, coupled with an equally perveted lack of non-attainment in
even being able to at the very least speak rightly.>>>>>
Such criticism is to be expected. I would be surprised not to hear such
criticism from you.
Mark
Alaya
Alaya
Rogowdoc <rogo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990909210015...@ng-ch1.aol.com...
Titeri-san
your langage
Salutations from Paris
Rogowdoc a écrit dans le message
<19990909195700...@ng-ch1.aol.com>...
Titeri-san
interested by
history.
Namo Daishi henjo kongo
titeri-san
sek...@postoffice.swbell.net
May all beings be happy
Alaya wrote:
> Rogowdoc <rogo...@aol.com> wrote in message
> of Buddhism, instead of Shakyamuni. Even the holy and much esteemed and
> loved Kobo-Daishi isn't above your criticism and contempt. How disgusting
> that you even claim to be a Buddhist if you can so readily oppose people and
> schools that you have no wisdom or compassion to even begin to be approach
> being capable of appraising. it's interesting that you also try to
> undervalue Kukai's role in establishing Shingon, as any Japanese scholar,
> monk or person in the street could claim to have more knowledge than your
> subtle misinterpretations of commonly agreed upon historical facts, that you
> so readily side step.
>
> Funnily enough, I agree with your comments on the Dalai Lama and the claim
> that he is Avoliketeshavara, but would apply the same skepticism to the
> things you hold in such high regard such as Nichiren. Your brand of Buddhism
> does indeed seem to rob it's members of compassion, and without such your
> faith is disruptive and particularly nasty I suspect as well as completely
> useless. Your arguments are dependant on the opposition to other schools to
> the point that I wonder what you would have to say if there were no other
> schools for you to snipe at.
>
> You do indeed quote other sutras, but only to invalidate them. Not that I
> have any particularly favourite sutra in mind. You even go so far as to say
> that in name alone, Soto Zen Buddhists incorporate Namu Myoho Renge Kyo in
> their practice. Is their anything besides your own cherished opinions that
> you don't despise?
> If your foul mouth is any indication of what you uphold, then your argument
> is not only unconvincing, but a strong argument against what you esteem so
> highly. I've never met anyone with your views before and have only read
> about them, but have read quite a bit on you esteemed Nichiren, and you do
> indeed seem cast from the same back-biting and jealous mold that he himself
> was cast from. You seem to have become the perfect student, as Nichiren
> himself couldn't contain his unjustified pride and jealousy in back biting
> other schools of Buddhism either. You will never be qualified to appraise
> any of the schools and sutras you slander, as long as you hold such
> perverted views, coupled with an equally perveted lack of non-attainment in
> even being able to at the very least speak rightly.
>
> Alaya
Alaya
hey, do you know who the Egyptian Sekhmet was?
Alaya
<sek...@postoffice.swbell.net> wrote in message
news:37DCFF3D...@postoffice.swbell.net...
sek...@postoffice.swbell.net
same person). She was born out of his anger and sent to destroy mankind. She got
drunk, fell asleep and forgot about the whole thing altogether. She is married
to the God Ptah(lord of crafts) and her son is Nefertum (lord of perfumes). She
was protrayed with the body of a woman and the head of a lioness crowned by a
solar disc. Usually regarded as the Goddess of destruction but also seen as a
patron of the healing arts.
May all beings be happy!
Erin
Alaya
name?
Alaya
<sek...@postoffice.swbell.net> wrote in message
news:37DF5C2B...@postoffice.swbell.net...
Rogowdoc
The key here is :"Saicho established the second ordination platform that was
recognized officially...." Therefore, those ordained elsewhere were not
officially recognized. Saicho was held in far greater esteem than Kobo.
Mark
Titeri-san
http://www.kyohaku.go.jp/tokuten/elegance/eleg2e.htm
Rogowdoc a écrit dans le message
<19990915212246...@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
sek...@postoffice.swbell.net
liked the qualities she possess
tjn
>
[snip]
one warm autumn day
half green half red maples dance
branches in the breeze
Rogowdoc
In chapter Twenty of the Saddharmapandarika-sutra (Lotus Sutra)
The Original Buddha explians that Bodhisattva-Mahasattva
Padmapani-Avalokiteshvara "paid homage to such numerous buddhas as these,
revering, honoring, and extolling them; and after cultivating the roots of
goodness, again he met thousands of myriads of kotis of buddhas and also under
the Law of those buddhas preached this sutra;(Lotus Sutra) his merits being
complete, he then became a buddha. Great Power Obtained! What is your
opinion? Can it be that the Bodhiasttva Never Despise
(Padmapani-Avalokiteshvara-Pali name'added') was at that time somebody else?
He was [really] I myself. If I in my former lives had not received and kept,
read and recited this sutra and preached it to others, I should not have been
able so soon to attain Perfect Enlightenment. Because under former buddhas I
received and kept, read and recited this sutra and preached it to others, I so
soon attained Perfect Enlightenment."
The Buddha is saying that he attained enlightenment through this Lotus Sutra,
which he preached during the last eight years of his life, so this being the
case, we should understand that Shakyamuni buddha is the Original and Eternal
Buddha, the "Thus Come One", if you worship Padmapani-Avalokiteshvara then
you go against what he, this Bodhisattva (The Buddha Shakyamnui), proclaimed,
which was how he attained Buddhahood. This is also in perfect accordance with
what the Buddha said in chapter two of the Lotus Sutra:
"Know, Sariputra! Of yore I made a vow, Wishing to cause all creatures To rank
equally without difference with me. According to the vow I made of old, Now
[all] has been perfectly fulfilled For converting all living beings And leading
them all by the Buddha-way. Whenever I meet any creatures I teach them all by
the Buddha-way. [But] the unwitting [remain] confused And, going astray, never
accept my teaching. I know that all these creatures Have never practiced the
fundamental goodness, Are firmly attached to the five desires; By reason of
these desires, They have fallen into the three evil paths; Transmigrating into
the six states of existence, They suffer the utmost misery. Received into the
womb in minute form, Life after life they ever increase and grow, Poor in
virtue and of little happiness. They are oppressed by all the distresses;
They have entered the thickets of heretical views, Such as 'existence' or
nonexistence;, Relying on these [false] views, Altogether sixty-two, They are
deeply attached to these false laws, Firmly holding, inable to give them up,
Self-sufficient and self-inflated, Suspicious, crooked, and faithless in mind;
During thousands and milliards of kalpas They have not heard the name of a
Buddha, Nor have they heard the True Law; Men such as these can hardly be
saved. For this reason, Sariputra, I set up a tactful way for them,
Proclaiming the way to end sufferings, Revealing it through nirvana. Though I
proclaim nirvana, Yet it is not real extinction. When a son of the Buddha has
fulfilled his course, In a world to come he becomes a buddha. [Only] by my
powers of tactfulness Do I manifest the three-vehicle Law. [For] all the
world-honored ones Expound the One- vehicle Way. Now let all in this great
assembly Be free from doubts and perplexities. The Buddhas do not differ in
their statements; There is One only and no secound vehicle. In the past
countless kalpas Innumerable extinct buddhas, In hundreds, thousands, and
milliards, Whose numbers cannot be counted, All such world-honored ones as
these With various reasonings and parables And innumerable tactful powers Have
proclaimed the various laws. [But] all these world-honored ones Proclaimed the
One-vehicle Law, Converting numberless creatures To enter the Buddha-way."
A passage above says: "I know that all these creatures Have never practiced the
fundamental goodness, Are firmly attached to the five desires; By reason of
these desires, They have fallen into the three evil paths; Transmigrating into
the six states of existence, (underline added) They suffer the utmost misery.
Received into the womb in minute form, Life after life they ever increase and
grow, Poor in virtue and of little happiness."
This is what the Tibetan teachings teach! "SAMSARA" THE ENDLESS CYCLE OF
BIRTH & DEATH THE "BARDO STATES"; SO WHEN THE TIBETAN BUDDHIST (DALAI LAMA)
SPEAK OF THIS AS THEIR TRUTH AND TEACHINGS, I BELIEVE WHAT THEY SAY, BECAUSE IT
IS WHAT THE BUDDHA SAID THEY WOULD ENDURE,THEY ARE TRAPPED IN SAMSARA THE
ENDLESS CYCLE OF BIRTH & DEATH!
Remember Buddhism is to escape SAMSARA not dwell in it! If you dismiss or
place another Buddha, or Bodhisattva above the Buddha (Shakyamnui) , who was
Bodhisattva Padmapani-Avalokiteshvara (In a former life), and worship his
former existence as a Bodhisattva (funjin buddha, buddha in manifestation), are
you not SLANDERING the Buddha, and do you not have it upsidedown or backwards?
, or does the Dalai Lama, i.e. Tibetan Buddhisms think the Buddha's words are
false?
Furthermore, this is explaining why the Tibetan people are OPPRESSED:
"They are oppressed by all the distresses; They have entered the thickets of
heretical views, Such as 'existence' or nonexistence;, Relying on these [false]
views, Altogether sixty-two, They are deeply attached to these false laws,
Firmly holding, inable to give them up, Self-sufficient and self-inflated,
Suspicious, crooked, and faithless in mind;" (The THREEFOLD Lotus Sutra,
cahpter 2 pg. 65-66)
It further states in passages from St. Nichiren's (Bodhisattva Jogyo) writing
the:
Establishment of the Legitimate Teaching for the Protection of the Country -
Rissho Ankoku Ron - Once there was a traveler who spoke these words in sorrow
to his host:
In recent years, there are unusual disturbances in the heavens, strange
occurrences on earth, famine and pestilence, all affecting every corner of the
empire and spreading throughout the land. Oxen and horses lie dead in the
streets, the bones of the stricken crowd the highways. Over half the population
has already been carried off by death, and in every family someone grieves.
All the while some put their whole faith in the "sharp sword" of the Buddha
Amida and intone the name of this lord of the Western Land; others believe that
hearing the name of the Buddha Yakushi will "heal all ills," and recite the
sutra that describes this Thus Come One of the Eastern Region. Some, putting
their trust in the passage in the Lotus Sutra that says, "His illness will be
wiped out and he will know neither old age nor death," pay homage to the
wonderful words of that sutra; others, relying upon the sutra passage that
reads: "The seven disasters vanish, the seven blessings at once appear,"
conduct ceremonies at which a hundred priests expound the sutra at a hundred
preaching platforms. There are those who follow the esoteric teachings of the
Shingon sect and conduct rituals by filling five jars with water; and others
who devote themselves entirely to seated meditation and try to perceive the
emptiness of all phenomena as clearly as the moon. Some write out the names of
the seven guardian spirits and paste them on a thousand gates, others paint
pictures of the five mighty bodhisattvas and hang them over ten thousand
thresholds, and still others pray to the heavenly gods and earthly deities in
ceremonies conducted at the four corners of the capital and on the four
boundaries of the nation. The rulers, taking pity on the plight of the common
people, carry out government on the national and local levels in a benevolent
manner.
But despite all these efforts, they merely exhaust themselves in vain. Famine
and epidemics rage more fiercely than ever, beggars are everywhere in sight,
and scenes of death fill our eyes. Corpses pile up in mounds like observation
platforms, dead bodies lie side by side like planks on a bridge.
If we look about, we find that the sun and moon continue to move in their
accustomed orbits, and the five planets follow the proper course. The three
treasures of Buddhism continue to exist, and the period of a hundred reigns has
not yet expired. Then why is it that the world has already fallen into decline
and that the laws of the state have come to an end? What is wrong? What error
has been committed?
The host then spoke: I have been brooding alone upon this matter, indignant in
my heart, but now that you have come, we can lament together. Let us discuss
the question at length.
When a man leaves family life and enters the Buddhist way, it is because he
hopes to attain Buddhahood through the teachings of the Buddha. But attempts
now to move the gods fail to have any effect, and appeals to the power of the
Buddhas produce no results. When I observe carefully the state of the world
today, I see people who give way to doubt because of the lack of understanding
[on the part of eminent priests]. They look up at the heavens and mouth their
resentment, or gaze down at the earth and sink deep into anxiety.
I have pondered the matter carefully with what limited resources I possess, and
have searched rather widely in the scriptures for an answer. The people of
today all turn their backs upon what is right; to a man, they give their
allegiance to evil. This is the reason that the benevolent deities have
abandoned the nation and departed together, that sages leave and do not return.
And in their stead come devils and demons, disasters and calamities that arise
one after another. I cannot keep silent on this matter. I cannot suppress my
fears.
The guest said: These disasters that befall the empire, these calamities of the
nation -- I am not the only one pained by them; the whole populace is weighed
down with sorrow. Now I have been privileged to enter your home and to listen
to these enlightening words of yours. You speak of the gods and sages taking
leave and of disasters and calamities arising side by side -- upon what sutras
do you base your views? Could you describe for me the passages of proof?
The host said: There are numerous passages that could be cited and a wide
variety of proofs. For example, in the Konkomyo Sutra we read: "[The Four
Heavenly Kings said to the Buddha,] ‘Though this sutra exists in the nation,
its ruler has never allowed it to be propagated. In his heart he turns away
from it, and he takes no pleasure in hearing its teachings. He does not make
offerings to it, honor or praise it. Nor is he willing to honor or make
offerings to the four kinds of Buddhists who embrace the sutra. In the end, he
makes it impossible for us and the countless other heavenly beings who are our
followers to hear this profound and wonderful teaching. He deprives us of the
sweet dew of its words and cuts us off from the flow of the correct teaching,
so that our majesty and strength are drained away. Thus the number of beings
who occupy the evil paths increases and the number who dwell in the human and
heavenly realms decreases. People fall into the river of the suffering of birth
and death and turn their backs on the road to nirvana.
" ‘World-Honored One, we, the Four Heavenly Kings, as well as our various
followers and the yakshas and other beings, observing this state of affairs,
have decided to abandon this nation, for we have no heart to protect it. And it
is not we alone who cast aside this ruler. All the great benevolent deities who
guard and watch over the countless different regions of the country will also
invariably reject him. And once we and the others abandon and desert this
nation, then many different types of disasters will occur in the country and
the ruler will fall from power. Not a single person in the entire population
will possess a heart of goodness; there will be nothing but binding and
enslaving, killing and injuring, anger and contention. Men will slander each
other or fawn upon one another, and the laws will be twisted until even the
innocent are made to suffer. Pestilence will become rampant, comets will appear
again and again, two suns will come forth side by side and eclipses will occur
with unaccustomed frequency. Black arcs and white arcs will span the sky as
harbingers of ill fortune, stars will fall, the earth will shake, and noises
will issue from the wells. Torrential rains and violent winds will come out of
season, there will be constant famine, and grains and fruits will not ripen.
Marauders from many other regions will invade and plunder the nation, the
people will suffer all manner of pain and affliction, and there will be no
place where one may live in safety.’"
The Daijuku Sutra says: "When the teachings of the Buddha truly become obscured
and lost, then people will all let their beards, hair and fingernails grow
long, and the laws of the world will be forgotten and ignored. At that time,
loud noises will sound in the air and the earth will shake; everything in the
world will begin to move as though it were a waterwheel. City walls will split
and tumble, and all houses and dwellings will collapse. Roots, branches,
leaves, petals and fruits will lose their medicinal properties. With the
exception of the heavens of purity, all the regions of the world of desire will
become deprived of the seven flavors and the three kinds of vitality, until not
a trace of them remains any more. All the good discourses that lead people to
emancipation will at this time disappear. The flowers and fruits that grow in
the earth will become few and will lose their flavor and sweetness. The wells,
springs and ponds will all go dry, the land everywhere will turn brackish and
will crack open and warp into hillocks and gullies. All the mountains will be
swept by fire and the heavenly beings and dragons will no longer send down
rain. The seedlings of the crops will all wither and die, all the living plants
will perish, and even the weeds will cease to grow any more. Dust will rain
down until all is darkness and the sun and the moon no longer shed their light.
All the four directions will be afflicted by drought, and evil omens will
appear again and again. The ten evil acts will increase greatly, particularly
greed, anger and stupidity, and people will think no more of their fathers and
mothers than does the roe deer. Living beings will decline in numbers, in
longevity, physical strength, dignity and enjoyment. They will become estranged
from the delights of the human and heavenly realms and all will fall into the
paths of evil. The wicked rulers and monks who perform these ten evil acts will
curse and destroy my correct teaching and make it difficult for those in the
human and heavenly realms to stay there. At that time the benevolent deities
and heavenly kings, who would ordinarily take pity on living beings, will
abandon this impure and evil nation and all will make their way to other
regions.
The Ninno Sutra states: "When a nation becomes disordered, it is the spirits
which first show signs of rampancy. Because the spirits become rampant, all the
people of the nation become disordered. Invaders come to plunder the country
and the common people face annihilation. The ruler, the high ministers, the
crown prince, the other princes and the hundred officials all quarrel with each
other over right and wrong. Heaven and earth manifest prodigies and strange
occurrences; the twenty-eight constellations19, the stars, the sun and the moon
appear at irregular times and in irregular positions, and numerous outlaws rise
up." !
One who is aware of what theTibetan people have endured, should surely be able
to see a relationship in what St. Nichiren just stated above. "There are
numerous passages that could be cited and a wide variety of proofs." (above
Rissho Ankoku Ron.) , but since these passages I have provided clearly refutes
the very heart of the Tibetan teachings; to do so, would be like administering
medicine to the dead. And since it is, the Buddha himself that attested to this
long before me, it would be superflous. The Buddha is the author of Buddhism,
and so we must take his word as absolute. There are many forms of Buddhism that
have developed since the time of the Buddha's advent, but few follow what he
actually taught. Tibetan Buddhism resembles Hinduism more then Buddhism, this
is a historical and doctinal fact that one could write a master thesis on. The
Buddha has said that by reading, reciting and copying the Lotus Sutra, we are
abiding in the One Great vehicle, which he clearly states is the way for the
people of this world to attain Buddhahood. This was the reason for his advent
in this Saha world.
I believe the Dalai Lama to be a sincere person, and I now hear him recite the
title of the Lotus Sutra from time to time- (Namu myoho renge kyo) if he really
wants to help the people of Tibet, he should refer to the scriptures, and abide
in the ONE great Vehicle of the Lotus Sutra-and follow what the Buddha has so
cleary stated, and purge his sect of the erroneous doctrine that has become
their teachings. His influence is great indeed; Americans are easily influenced
by Hollywood, and a cause to rally to help people who are OPPRESSED, but by
further propagateing these teachings they are destroying the Buddha's true
intent, and it creates negitive karma for all that follow in his path!
There is a principle in Buddhism that states that if the minds of the people
are impure, then the land they live in will also be impure, but if the minds of
the people are pure then so is the land in which they live. The body and mind
are like a vessel, so if we put impure and erroneous teachings into the minds
of the people then it upsets the water of the true Law; our Buddha nature. Our
Buddha nature is like a pure and clean vessel, but through many lives it
becomes clouded by delusion and wrong thought, deed, and action, if you mix
this vessel with muddy water then how can one drink it without becoming sick,
or quench their thirst for real Buddhist wisdom, or ever see the reality of
ones true self.
Let us all respect the Buddha and his teachings by following what he actually
taught; this I am sure is the intent of all those who truely belive in what the
Buddha preached. This is true filial devotion to the Buddha, and to
"BodhisattvaPadmapani-Avalokiteshvara." who is now Shakyamuni Buddha, we all
then can escape the endless cycle of SAMSARA and "Speedily attain Buddhahood"
With the deepest respect for the "Thus Come One" Buddha....
The meaning of the title 'Padma-pani'
is 'One that bears a Lotus'.
Understanding What is Provisional & What is Essential
"Neither Paradise nor Hell exists externally, for both exist within ourselves.
One who is awakened to this is called a Buddha and one who is not, a common
mortal. This principal is revealed in the Lotus Sutra. Therefore, if one
embraces the Lotus Sutra, he will find his Hell transformed into Paradise. Even
if one may practice the provisional teachings for uncountable aeons, he will
always be in Hell whenever he departs from the Lotus Sutra. This is not my own
view. Sakyamuni and Taho Buddhas as well as all other Buddhas have proclaimed
this."
Nichiren
(From A Reply to the Widow of Lord Ueno)
From the Bukokku Hokke Kai (Lotus Sutra Society) of the Kempon Hokke (The Lotus
Sutra Revealing the Original Buddha:
http://sites.netscape.net/bukkokuhokkekai/homepage
Mark
Titeri-san
http://www.mit.edu/~stclair/lotus.html
In mid-13th century Japan, an outspoken Tendai monk named Nichiren
established a school of Buddhism founded upon the Lotus Sutra. Nichiren felt
he had unlocked the key to the Lotus Sutra by interpreting the title of the
Sutra as emblematic of its entire meaning. His insisting upon exclusion of
all Buddhist practices other than devotion to the Lotus Sutra was
controversial and caused an unbreachable rift with his parent Tendai sect,
forcing him to found his own sect, which he called Hokkekyo-shu
(Dharma-Flower-Sutra Sect). There are today over thirty sects and sub-sects
of Nichiren style Buddhism, some bearing his name, each with a different
interpretation of Nichiren's teachings, but each claiming lineage from the
Hokkekyo-shu and Nichiren himself. Some are intensely doctrinaire and
evangelistic while others are low-profile and virtually undoctrinal to the
point of doing little else than chanting as Nichiren advocated on the force
of sheer devotion alone.
Various Mahayana traditions consider Shakyamuni as one in an succession of
buddhas, while there is an "eternal buddha" of whom the various specific
buddhas are "emanations." The Lotus Sutra is traditionally interpreted as
defining the "Eternal Buddha" to be none other than Shakyamuni. The "I"
which Shakyamuni refers to in the 16th chapter of the Lotus Sutra is,
however, a Buddha who attained enlightenment at a fixed point in time. The
sutra reads, "Since I attained Buddhahood...." and then describes the
inconceivable (by human standards) amount of time since that enlightenment
occured. The Pure Land school sometimes regards the Buddha Amida (also known
by the names Amitabha, Amitayus, Amita, and Amito) in the same way, and the
Kegon or Flower-Garland school regards the Buddha Vairocana as the eternal
Buddha. Whichever is true is unimportant. The Buddha Shakyamuni said, "Where
you see the Dharma, you see me." This can also be said of every Buddha.
Namo amida butsu
om mani padme hum
myoo rengue kyo kanzeon bosatsu :^)
Martin Ellison
>The Buddha Shakyamuni said, "Where
> you see the Dharma, you see me."
Bhagavadgita?
Better, anyway, than "no man comes to the father but by me".
Martin
Theravad
<mar...@ics.mq.edu.au> writes:
>I was relying
>on memories of Protestant Sunday School, who were at pains to
>assert claims of exclusiveness against other religions.
Such claims are at best simplistic and usually quite sinister. Before we can
know what Jesus meant, we must understand who Jesus thought he was which i
interpret as the living example of the Way. Without question, this Way is also
the Way taught by the Buddha: self-discipline, self-denial and selfless
service. All that "love" crap is pretty much mistranslation or deliberate
misrepresentation. The above formula leads inevitably to a love much greater
than human love.
Whether Jesus was God or not is a moot question, one that can never be answered
but in my mind, I do not see how he could possibly have been. Thus, a person
who is full of himself cannot come to God.
Titeri-san
and don't find any jewell (I'm actually 42).
I really prefer shingon ! in fact when I study your scholl I see that I
practice the
mandala of nichiren. Fudo myoo (achalanatha) aizen myoo (rajagara)
daikoku (mahakala) and (karitei bo) hariti and kannon kyo. :)
Are these shingon always practiced in your scholl ?or loose
You can be sure that nichiren as a tendai practitionner did them very often,
even if daimoku was his central practice.
titeri_san
Titeri-san a écrit dans le message <7slubb$ril$1...@front7m.grolier.fr>...
>I suggest that you pray kokuzo (akashagarbha) through his mantra as
>nichiren did it, following in that shingon tradition.
>http://www.shingon.org/deities/jusanbutsu/kokuzo.html
>May be you will obtain a jewell like him (I'm not sure I was not here :^)
>and develop your own wisdom.
>
Rogowdoc
Titerisan, I suppose Brahma was a deity derived from Shingon too? Is there
nothing Shingon will not take credit for?
Mark
Titeri-san
Rogowdoc a écrit dans le message
<19990927015924...@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
>
> Titerisan, I suppose Brahma was a deity derived from Shingon too? Is there
>nothing Shingon will not take credit for?
>
> Mark
>
achalantha is the main wrathfull deity of the mahavairocana tantra and aizen
myoo rajagara the main wrathfull deity of the vajra tantra. There aren't
mentionned anywhere in hokke kyo. I suppose that you have already practiced
these shingons as nichiren did it ?
titeri-san
http://xoom.members.com/mollandin/fudo.htm
>
>
Theravad
<titer...@bigfoot.com> writes:
>It's funny I practicing daimoku when I was around 22
>and don't find any jewell (I'm actually 42).
Funny, i practiced piano when i was 22 but never became a concert pianist. Mut
be something wrong with pianos.