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Re-incarnation of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche has been recognized

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Aug 13, 2004, 11:13:44 AM8/13/04

Trungpa Rinpoche was a severe alcoholic for decades
who deteriorated to the point that he was not rational, and
often comatose, for the last decade or so of his life. Some
of his later, Shambhala-oriented, writings were written just
after he came out of a coma or a psychotic fugue. I have
lived in the Shambhala community for years, and had this
from some of his Kusung, or personal assistants.

Trungpa Rinpoche died as a result of severe cyrrhosis of
the liver--the other organs shut down or lost function for years,
as a result of the cyrrhosis, and this loss of major organ function
is what killed him.

He left no instructions as to a re-incarnation, if you believe in
such things (as a saved believer in the Lord Jesus Christ I do *not*,
though I had several decades of Buddhist experience) beyond a *viva
voce* remark that if he had to come back, he thought he'd be a
Japanese engineer. He left no written recognition instructions, and
his rather bizarre will and testament said merely "I will be haunting
you."

As an aside: there IS a reincarnation of Trunpa Rinpoche (i.e. a 12th
Trungpa Rinpoche), but he is OUTSIDE THE CONTROL OF THE
SHAMBHALA sangha (run by Trungpa's first son, now known variously
as "Mipham Rinpoche" and "The Sakyong").

The re-incarnation lives in Tibet, at Surmang monastery, where he was
installed after being recognized i think. Surmang was the monastery
and lands owned by the Trungpas. When Chogyam Trungpa fled
Tibet, he left a number of dependents and monks/lamas behind, and
these "held down the fort" at Surmang and have endured the Chinese
yoke.

Quite a contrast to Trungpa's high-living hard-drinking,
15-year-old-fucking lifestyle. (one of his secondary wives
was 15).

After the death of Chogyam Trungpa, the Surmang monastery recognized
their own Tulku--after all, the Shambhala cult Chogyam founded in
North America had been left no instructions as to re-incarnation.

Now, the Shambhala cult refers--if at all---to the official (heh)
reincarnation of Trungpa as "*the* Surmang tulku." This use
of the definite article indicates their hopes that they can start
a conflict (and *decades* of litigation, like the Karma Kagyu--
ah,so THAT is the legacy of the buddha that lasts on through time heh
heh) over which tulku is the real tulku. But they don't have a
candidate yet.

Powerful lamas (Trungpa was such--he didn't get disrobed when
as a monk he got a nun pregnant (their child is the "Sakyong" who
now heads the sangha) owned slave/serfs,
property, lands and buildings, and re-incarnations of Rinpoches
inherit these. However, I don't think Surmang is a wealthy monastery
now. The Chinese confiscate stuff and of course the Chinese freed the
slaves/serfs, much to the resentment of the Tibetan lamas who owned
them.

On these boards, "norbu tragri" professes to know much of
the affairs of the Shambhala sangha, yet--when I tested him
with references to notable people in the Shambhala sangha
(e.g. to the personal physician who moved in with Trungpa, to one of
Chogyam Trungpa's secondary wives, to the head of
the uniformed security force, property managers, heads of
retreat centers,etc.) he was ignorant of the
allusion. It is my impression that "norbu tragri" is a true
believer in the Shambhala cult who arrived late on the
scene.

Do not believe any of the regulars on alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan
at present--2 of them are followers of disgraced cults. Tang may
be able to provide details, if he's working on a FAQ (my idea not
his).

I'm crossposting this to alt.magick as Tom was a Trungpa fan.

P.S. Trungpa's sects were Karma Kagyu (now scandalized) and
Nyingma. His cult used the 16th Karmapa as a political patron, and
he named their 1st 2 retreat centers "Karma Choling" and "Karma
Dzong." Look in early literature (*Garuda* Vol. 4) and you'll see
these names glossed--"Dharma place of the Karma Kagyu" for
instance.

Since the scandal hit the Karma Kagyu, Trungpa's cult's website
now says the name means "Dharma place of enlightened activity."
Well, karma is karma for them i guess.

The Shambhala cult *added* a Nyingma nondjro and relied on
Penor Rinpoche ( a nyingma bigwig) as a political patron, after
1995. I think they are now distancing even from the Nyingma, perhaps:
Penor had his own disgraces, and the Shambhala cult is now shopping
around some Drukpa Kagyu lamas from Bhutan.

Tom

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Aug 13, 2004, 4:16:28 PM8/13/04

"Login with Secure Password Authentication" <LordsS...@GlorytoHim.com>
wrote in message news:v1lph0192e9je6l18...@4ax.com...

>
> I'm crossposting this to alt.magick as Tom was a Trungpa fan.

Trungpa was a human being. We are all human beings. We say wise things and
foolish things. We do wise things and foolish things.

There have been many legendary Buddhist teachers in Tibet. Some of them
were pretty rowdy and intemperate sorts, others were very conventional and
reserved. Human beings.

As for "recognizing" a reincarnation, we human beings recognize truly and
also recognize falsely.

Pema

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Aug 13, 2004, 7:05:18 PM8/13/04

You sound like a very unhappy person who does believe misery loves
company. perhaps it does, but no one loves company with misery.
love,
Pema

cupcake

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Aug 13, 2004, 7:48:28 PM8/13/04

Pema Ballerina wrote:

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Ha!

SwAmI

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Aug 14, 2004, 12:49:33 AM8/14/04

"Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:wk9Tc.20078$9Y6...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

>
> "Login with Secure Password Authentication" <LordsS...@GlorytoHim.com>
> wrote in message news:v1lph0192e9je6l18...@4ax.com...
> >
> > I'm crossposting this to alt.magick as Tom was a Trungpa fan.
>
> Trungpa was a human being. We are all human beings. We say wise things
and
> foolish things. We do wise things and foolish things.

Don't be so damn judgemental Tom.

---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Aug 14, 2004, 12:11:39 AM8/14/04

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 23:48:28 GMT, cupcake <t...@r.slrup> wrote:

> Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Ha!

I think the boys were right, cup: you need some psychiatric help.

cupcake

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Aug 14, 2004, 12:25:33 AM8/14/04

>
> Re: Re-incarnation of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche has been recognized
>
> From: Login with Secure Password Authentication
> <GodsS...@GlorytoHim.com>
> Reply to: [1]Login with Secure Password Authentication
> Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 00:11:39 -0400
> Newsgroups:
> [2]talk.religion.buddhism,
> [3]alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan,
> [4]alt.religion.buddhism,
> [5]alt.magick,
> [6]alt.religion.buddhism.ris-med
> Followup to: [7]newsgroups
> References:
> [8]<7cc3084b.0408...@posting.google.com>
> [9]<grcTc.15$i_4...@news.more.net>

>On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 23:48:28 GMT, cupcake <t...@r.slrup> wrote:
>
>
>> Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Ha!
>>
>
> I think the boys were right, cup: you need some psychiatric help.
>

well, yer crazy if yu think i'm crazy; and i'm not real
crazy about yu, either

(i bet yer really Norbu in disguise, huh)

cupcake

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Aug 14, 2004, 12:30:48 AM8/14/04

>
> Re: Re-incarnation of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche has been recognized
>

> From: cupcake <t...@r.slrup>
> Reply to: [1]cupcake
> Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 04:25:33 GMT
> Newsgroups:
> [2]talk.religion.buddhism,
> [3]alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan,
> [4]alt.religion.buddhism,
> [5]alt.magick,
> [6]alt.religion.buddhism.ris-med
> Followup to: [7]newsgroups
> References:

> [8]<i64rh05qb2p11b5dj...@4ax.com>

btw, once they find this reincarnated trungpa feller,
are they gonna give him a bottle of gin, err what, huh

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Ha!

Monkey FourSevenZeroOne

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Aug 14, 2004, 2:37:48 AM8/14/04

cupcake <t...@r.slrup> wrote in message news:<grcTc.15$i_4...@news.more.net>...
>
>
>
> Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Ha!

"Reality is that which,
when you stop believing in it,
doesn't go away."
--Philip K. Dick
http://deoxy.org/pkd_how2build.htm

"Walking the spiritual path properly is a very subtle process;
it is not something to jump into naively. There are numerous
sidetracks which lead to a distorted, ego-centered version of
spirituality; we can deceive ourselves into thinking we are
developing spiritually when instead we are strengthing our
egocentricity through spiritual techniques. This fundamental
distortion may be referred to as spiritual materialism."
--Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche (1939-1987)
Author of: "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism"

Memes are like mind viruses...

"How intoxicating to feel like God the Father
and hand out definitive testimonials of
bad character and habits."
[...]
"There is but one truly serious philosophical
problem and that is suicide." -- Albert Camus
http://www.levity.com/corduroy/camusabs.htm

"Historically the chief role in the formation of
Christianity was played not by the teaching of
Christ but by the teaching of Paul.
Church Christianity from the very beginning
contradicted in many respects the ideas of Christ
himself. Later, the divergence became still wider.
It is by no means a new idea that Christ, if born
on earth later, not only could not be the head of
the Christian Church, but probably would not be
able even to belong to it, and in the most brilliant
periods of the might and power of the Church
would most certainly have been declared a heretic
and burned at the stake."

A NEW MODEL OF THE UNIVERSE
Principals of the Psychological Method
in its Application to Problems of
Science, Religion, and Art.
by P. D. Ouspensky 1931
Alfred A. Knopf, Inc.
ISBN: 0-394-71524-1
Peter D. Ouspensky 1878-1947
http://www.gurdjieff.org/ouspensky.htm

"Acharya S" <D. Murdock>
http://www.truthbeknown.com/christ.htm

************************************
"Bardo Thodol, 'The Tibetan Book of the Dead,' is a guide for
the dead and dying. The first part, called Chikhai Bardo,
describes the moment of death. The second part, Chonyid
Bardo, deals with the states which supervene immediately
after death. The third part, Sidpa Bardo, concerns the onset
of the birth instinct and of prenatal events..."
|||||||^~--~~^~^()()()====[]_o0-O-0o_[]====()()()^~^~~--~^|||||||
"...The post-mortem Bardo journey lasts seven weeks (49 days),
divided into three stages. The first period (Chikhai Bardo) is
that of complete transcendence--beyond words, beyond
space-time, beyond self. There are no visions, no sense of
self, no thoughts. The second (lengthy) period (Chonyid Bardo)
involves self in the form of hallucinations (karmic apparitions).
The final period (Sidpa Bardo) involves the return to earthly
existence. For most people, the second stage is the longest.
For the initiated the first stage of illumination lasts longer.
By the end of the forty-ninth day the deceased either enters
Nirvana or is reborn into a worldly state influenced by his/her
past actions; i.e., karma. The Bardo state is recognized as an
opportunity for change, a starting point of transformation..."
|||||||^~--~~^~^()()()====[]_o0-O-0o_[]====()()()^~^~~--~^|||||||
The Tibetan Book of the Dead
First Bardo: The Period of Ego-Loss or Non-Game Ecstasy
(Chikhai Bardo)
[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
Second Bardo: The Period of Hallucinations
(Chonyid Bardo)
[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
Third Bardo: The Period of Re-Entry
(Sidpa Bardo)"
[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
http://www.lycaeum.org/books/books/psychedelic_experience/tib21.html

Alan Watts, 1915-1973
http://www.alanwatts.com/

Remotely Reading A Person's Mental State
United States Patent 5,507,291
http://tinyurl.com/5cmgh

Chang'er Flew to the Moon
http://www.cnsa.gov.cn/english/news_release/show.asp?id=97

At ConnecTerra we believe that the Aware Enterprise is inevitable.
http://www.connecterra.com/company/index.php

August 2004
SLAC Press Release
http://www.slac.stanford.edu/BFROOT/
Physicists discover dramatic difference in behavior of matter versus antimatter
Photographs of the BaBar detector are available at:
http://www.interactions.org/slaccp/
Relevant Web URLs:
Charge Parity Violation:
http://www2.slac.stanford.edu/tip/special/cp.htm
Observation of Direct CP Violation in B0 -K+pi- Decays:
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ex/0407057

Genesis
http://genesismission.jpl.nasa.gov/
http://www.gps.caltech.edu/genesis/genesis3.html

Ammonia on Mars could mean life
http://tinyurl.com/6ojeh

My Favorite Martians
A UFO Epistomology
by Erik Davis
http://www.techgnosis.com/martians.html
[Originally published in the Voice Literary Supplement, February 1993]

[Excerpt]:

... UFO literature, by drawing curious readers into bizarre
worldviews shored up with the language of evidence, shows
how our attitudes toward information structure our reality
and identity. Even if the UFO is bunk, it has become
modernity's great mythic mirror. The first "flying saucers"
were sighted in 1947 by Kenneth Arnold, in the year that
gave us the CIA and information theory, in the decade that
gave us TV, the Bomb, digital computers, and LSD. The UFO
is part of a package deal--a rumor of god stitched into
the dark web of our military-industrial-media complex.

Though habitually keeping a low profile, the visitors have
been pretty busy since '47. The UFO and its trickster crew
have crash-landed, pulled fly-bys, delivered messages of
doom and gnostic salvation, sucked bovine blood, conspired
with the Air Force, stolen embryos from Middle American
housewives, fucked Brazilian farmers silly, and rammed
anal probes into horror fiction writers. But though
millions believe, and many more are cautiously credulous,
the aliens remain beyond reach, in a netherworld of bad
films, paperbacks, and late-night testimonies. Sightings
haven't really made news since the '70s and, though
Whitley Streiber's 1987 Communion ruled the charts, the
UFO seems almost quaint in our cyberpunk world, a cosmic
VW bug in the weedy back yard of modernity.

But the UFO has not waned so much as gone within, into
the body, into the mind, into the dream of identity.
Thousands of abductees, seeking to ease the psychic
trauma of being dragged onto spaceships and physically
abused by aliens, have solidified a sub-culture that's
far more 12 Step than Star Trek. Conspiracy theorists
weave UFOs into their insidious webs of government plots,
while channeled ET info has evolved into the New Age's
most speculative edge. And after years of cranky pursuits
for the "nuts and bolts" that will prove the existence of
material extraterrestrial spacecraft, some ufologists are
turning towards a subtler engagement of the alien as
radical mythic enigma. [...]
http://www.techgnosis.com/martians.html

Rare Earth hypothesis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_Earth_hypothesis

Giant Impact Theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_impact_theory

"It was as if Usama bin Laden hidden in some high
mountain redoubt, were engaging in long-range mind
control of George Bush, chanting 'invade Iraq, you
must invade Iraq.'"
p. 246 "Against All Enemies," Richard A. Clarke

"When the landscape of the open adaptive complex system
is locally macro-quantum with presponse signal nonlocality,
that landscape is a conscious mind field."
--J. S. Cadet
http://tinyurl.com/5qjcz

"The Universe is a self-excited
circuit of Observer-Participators."
John Archibald Wheeler

Teaching Torture: Congress Quietly Keeps
School of the Americas Alive
By Doug Ireland
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/072604A.shtml

Soul R&R
http://soulrr.tripod.com/welcome.html

JOTHI MARGA
http://www.jothimarga.org

U. G. Krishnamurti
http://www.well.com/user/jct/index.html

Petroleum World!
http://www.petroleumworld.com/

"You are the stillness that is eternally awake."
Antoinette Roberson [Gangaji]
http://www.gangaji.org/index.asp

"In any life, essential questions emerge that
demand answers. The answers determine the course
of your life for good or for ill. Now I pose this
essential question to you: What do you really want?"
Elliot Jay Zeldow [Eli Jaxon-Bear]
http://www.leela.org/

The Binary Soul Doctrine ... www.divisiontheory.com
******************************************

Jaynes' seminal work, The Origin of Consciousness
in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, postulates
that a profoundly important change took place in
the nature of human consciousness around 2500 BC.
[...]
[Ken] Wilber's four-quadrant system reflects a pattern
familiar to cultures across the globe; the famous
psychoanalytical pioneer Carl Jung discovered that
maps depicting a four-part reality have been drawn
as mandalas all over the world. The similarities
between these various four-part depictions of
reality are quite astounding, and all seem to
reiterate the idea that the universe is a unity
comprised of four fundamental components.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6696/
http://danielaberghof/sjamanism.com

"Alone of the Valar do I exist apart from him,
hence can do so. And so I tell you this:
He is not cruel, any more than he is benevolent.
He is a force of indifference and hazard in this
universe, and what appears here upon Arda is the
result of that and no more. That is the truth
and the curse of this world: that it is bereft
of purpose. It is merely here, and it continues
as its patterns, and accident, and the force of
contesting wills press it. Finally, as all
energy upon it is drawn inexorably out into the
cosmos from whence it was fashioned, it will
grow cold, and go out." --Melkor [Pg 25],
The Second Scroll - Sauron to Pallando.
Morlindale: The Song of Illuminate Darkness
by Michael A. Aquino (©2003)
http://www.xeper.org/maquino

...And speaking of M E A T !
- - - --==|o)!
http://www.eng.usf.edu/%7ewilkinso/gastrobotics/

Mechanical Engineering Faculty
Stuart Wilkinson, Ph.D.
http://me.eng.usf.edu/people/wilkinso.html

On the other hand:

In: "D I V I S I O N T H E O R Y
IT'S A BINARY WORLD",
Peter Novak <No...@DivisionTheory.com> writes:

http://www.divisiontheory.com/

"... People often react very negatively to the idea
that we are double beings, that the human soul is
binary in nature. It rarely occurs to them that this
is just the reaction one would expect if the soul
was bifurcated. To be dual, after all, is to be
duplicitous and double-dealing. To have two parts to
the self makes it possible for one hand not to know
what the other is doing. It paves the way for
violated integrity, unintentional falsehood,
self-betrayal, and self-deception.

"Plus, it just seems odd. Why do we have two souls?

"Perhaps the answer is as simple as this : because
that's the way everything is made -- with two parts,
two equal-but-opposite complimentary components..."
CONT... http://www.divisiontheory.com/

Kieran Wright

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Aug 14, 2004, 3:49:16 AM8/14/04

DA,

Here is the weblink with info about the twelfth Trungpa.

Regards,

http://www.konchok.org/trungpa-lineage.html
"cupcake" <t...@r.slrup> wrote in message news:YzgTc.20$i_4...@news.more.net...

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Aug 14, 2004, 3:50:46 AM8/14/04

On 13 Aug 2004 23:37:48 -0700, monke...@yahoo.com (Monkey
FourSevenZeroOne) wrote:

While some of that was funny and apt, it made no sense
to me. I am not sure if you went crazy following Buddhism
or practicing magic. So please tell me which of the following
parodies is most apt.

Buddhist sage, Buddhist sage,
Has a very long reference page....
How's his life? Truth to tell,
He's so spaced out that it's turned to hell...

Bwa-ha!, so says the Buddhist sage.

OR>.......

Spider-mage, Spider-mage,
Works at Star****s for min'mum wage;
Casts a Spell!!! On his Boss!
Then goes home and reads LIBER OZ...

Abra-ka-dabra, Spider-mage!

norbu_tragri

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Aug 14, 2004, 8:32:22 AM8/14/04

Login with Secure Password Authentication <LordsS...@GlorytoHim.com> wrote in message news:<v1lph0192e9je6l18...@4ax.com>...

<snip>

One point at a time, mon petite. And i will address all your points,
such as they are.

i'm a little disappointed that that's your great condemnation...give
me a **challenge**, - please - , because you've made so many -factual
errors- here that it's like shooting ducks in a barrel.

Let's start with the easy ones (and build up to the elaborately
confused ones):

1.a. "On these boards, "norbu tragri" professes to know much of the
affairs of the Shambhala sangha,..."

No, i have never made any such claim. i have always said that i was
nothing more or less than a middling student and no
official/un-official spokes-person at all. i did say that if anyone
had any complaints i would see what i could do, as i do know how to
get in touch with people. Strike One.

1.b. "yet--when I tested him with references to notable people in the

Shambhala sangha (e.g. to the personal physician who moved in with
Trungpa, to one of Chogyam Trungpa's secondary wives, to the head of
the uniformed security force, property managers, heads of retreat
centers,etc.) he was ignorant of the allusion.

No, you didn't 'test' me; you did not ask me if i knew Mr/Ms X, Y, or
Z. You posted under false names making false claims (like being a
current kasung, or that all the Acaryas were annoyed with me, etc.),
and i told you that your act was shabby and that i didn't believe your
claims, e.g., you refered to the Vidyadhara disrespectfully as
"Trungpa" and the Dorje Kasung disrespectfully as "kasung"...Also i
study with the Acharayas from time to time and my email addy is right
there and i've never heard a peep out of any them about what i post.
You use false names and you lie and, sadly, you don't even do a good
job of it. Strike Two.

1.c. "It is my impression that "norbu tragri" is a true believer in

the Shambhala cult who arrived late on the scene."

No, i started reading VCTR around '74, and began practicing at the
L.A. Dharmadhatu around '78. So i came along in the middle-beginning
years of his main teaching series, as senior students were beginning
to practice Vajrayogini and before the start of the Sambhala Termas.
A student in L.A. wouldn't know who his Doctor was or the head of the
Boulder Dorje Kasung. Strike Three.

Total strike out on the first issue.
----

2. a. and b. "The Shambhala cult *added* a Nyingma nondjro and relied

on Penor Rinpoche ( a nyingma bigwig) as a political patron, after
1995."

No. Following VCTR's death (and the Regent's death) H.H. Dilgo
Khyentse Rinpoche (then "head of the Nyingma order") was invited to
oversee the Shambhala Sangha because he was the only surviving of
VCTR's two Root Gurus. There could be no-one more natural to guide the
sangha. Strike One.

And, No. The Nyingma's traditionally do not have a head/leader/etc;
that was a merely political post created by the Tibetan Govnt in
Exile. Penor Rinpoche was "it" at the time that Mipham Pinpoche was
enthroned as a holder of a Nyingma lineage; Penor Rinpoche's approval
in the name of the Nyingma as a whole was a legal formality. A
personal blessing as well. Strike Two.

2.c. "I think they are now distancing even from the Nyingma, perhaps:

Penor had his own disgraces, and the Shambhala cult is now shopping
around some Drukpa Kagyu lamas from Bhutan."

No. The Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche a lineage holder of the Kagyu,
Nyingma, Shambhala, and Rime traditions. He is currently studying with
Khenpo Namdrol, a student of Penor Rinpoche, on the Guyagarbha Tantra,
etc.. Thrangu Rinpoche of the Kagyu has taught the three year retreat
at Gampo Abbey for many years as well as giving Mahamudra teachings.
H.H.Dilgo Khyentse intoduced various Nyingma teachings and
empowerments that are on-going. Tenga Rinpoche has been teaching
Chakrasamvara and the six dharmas of Naropa and overseeing the Great
Stupa project. Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso has been teaching Mahamudra and
related topics for years. And Ponlop Rinpoche has taught in-depth
philosophy at the Nithartha Institute as well as at Naropa Institute
for many years. and i don't think you know the history of Drukyul...
Strike Three.

Total strike out on the secound issue.
---

3. a. b. and c. "...Trungpa's high-living hard-drinking,

15-year-old-fucking lifestyle. (one of his secondary wives was 15).

a. Diana Pybus was 16 when she and a 22 yr old Tibetan exile boy fell
in love. (Diana: "Being with him made complete sense to me, in a way
that nothing that had come before in my life had. What was
extraordinary about it wasn't the physicality at all. Rather it was
the pervasive atmosphere of gentleness and compassion." Chogyam:
"Emotion, what is that? Longing for you is something deeper than my
impression of you, and the memory could be carved on rock,...somthing
substantial...." They were legally married in Scottland. It was 1968
and both were part of the English hippie counter-culture. Her mother
objected to the marrige and asked Diana to see a psychiatrist. Diana
has said about that: He opened our session by saying, "So your mother
tells me you want to be a dropout from society". I replied, "Yes, I
do!" So he said, "Oh, do tell me about it." He was so sympathetic
that I felt he was about ready to drop out himself. We had a great
talk about Buddhism and other things, and finally he said to me, "You
know something, I have to confide in you...Your mother is a very
disturbed person. She's alienated everyone around her and everyone
around you. I actually think you're doing quite fine."
So much for your version of a dumb illeagal pre-teen preyed-upon by
some old lama. Strike One.

(also, i think you might feel a little bit ashamed here for sneering
at true love, read the rest and you will see what i mean...)

b. Lady Diana Mukpo: "Later, when i started my intensive 'Dressage'
traning " (Diana Mukpo was the first woman accepted to The Spanish
Riding Academy, the pre-eminant school of European formal horseback
riding) " I knew that I had to acknowledge the conventional world and
some sort of conventional wisdom to make the whole thing work. I tried
to keep those two worlds, my marriage and my career, a bit separate,
so that i could be accepted in the riding world <on my own merits>. On
the otherhand, nothing that ever happened in Rinpoche's world was ever
a problem. It was just a bit of a balancing act." ...Woooo: Teenage
cult zombie **has her own life***, outside of any boodhist whatever.
Dang. Strike two for you, she's still not the dumb victim.

c. Lady Diana, concludes the autobiography these quotes are taken from
: "It makes me sad to talk about all this, because i miss my husband
and nothing will ever replce his presence. But also it gives me great
joy. His life was a tremendous gift: to me personally, to all his
students, and beyond that, to all of the Western world. What he did,
what he said, what he left behind and what will eventually come out of
it all - that is such a big gift. We have just begun to unwrap it." -
Diana J. Mukpo 2001 - Strike Three...more like you nuked yourself on
this topic.

You claim to have been such a close student...but i only studied with
Lady Diana for one weekend, and i intuited all that from her about 20
yrs ago, so that when she published this in 2002 it was like hearing
from an old friend....

i really do wonder about your claims as to having been such a close
and devout student if you're this clueless...

Wait for the next post and the next three strike outs as i cover all
the points you have raised with citations, cause you just come off
worse and worse...

...i'll even tell you why you're putting so much time and effort into
rehashing your past like this and avoiding what is going on
now...might help you heal a bit.

- best,
- n.

norbu_tragri

unread,

Aug 14, 2004, 8:48:33 AM8/14/04

cupcake <t...@r.slrup> wrote in message news:<YzgTc.20$i_4...@news.more.net>...

he was 'found' years ago, and he's a nice teen kid...between the
killer Han racists and any Dogmatists that might be around i hope he
has the <very careful>
balls to be himself...make a stand when it matters and be quiet when
it will just stir-up suffering all around. He's in a very difficult
situation

norbu_tragri

unread,

Aug 14, 2004, 8:59:16 AM8/14/04

cupcake <t...@r.slrup> wrote in message news:<1vgTc.19$i_4...@news.more.net>...

he can't be me, kitten, cuz i've never thought you were 'crazy' in the
least. You defend Theravada Buddhadhamma as you see it from
'corruptions'...

i think sometimes yr wrong sometimes right, but i admire your effort
to protect the dhamma 1000%. You dharma hero.

norbie heart kitten.

now go barf, if y hafta. :p

xxox

Evelyn Ruut

unread,

Aug 14, 2004, 9:37:56 AM8/14/04

"SwAmI" <no...@none.com> wrote in message
news:xRgTc.1$P9...@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net...

>
> "Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:wk9Tc.20078$9Y6...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> > "Login with Secure Password Authentication"
<LordsS...@GlorytoHim.com>
> > wrote in message news:v1lph0192e9je6l18...@4ax.com...
> > >
> > > I'm crossposting this to alt.magick as Tom was a Trungpa fan.
> >
> > Trungpa was a human being. We are all human beings. We say wise things
> and
> > foolish things. We do wise things and foolish things.
>
> Don't be so damn judgemental Tom.

Tom told it like it is.

I have known people very well who were Trungpa's students. The man was
incredible. His books are the best. Human beings can be brilliant and
still make mistakes.
--
Regards,
Evelyn

(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox")

cupcake

unread,

Aug 14, 2004, 9:52:29 AM8/14/04

Evilrot rote:

>"SwAmI" <no...@none.com> wrote in message

>[11]news:xRgTc.1$P9...@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net...

>>
>> "Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

>> [12]news:wk9Tc.20078$9Y6...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

>> >
>> > "Login with Secure Password Authentication"
><LordsS...@GlorytoHim.com>

>> > wrote in message [13]news:v1lph0192e9je6l18...@4ax.com...

>> > >
>> > > I'm crossposting this to alt.magick as Tom was a Trungpa fan.
>> >
>> > Trungpa was a human being. We are all human beings. We say wise things
>> and
>> > foolish things. We do wise things and foolish things.
>>
>> Don't be so damn judgemental Tom.
>>
>
>
>
>Tom told it like it is.
>
>I have known people very well who were Trungpa's students. The man was
>incredible. His books are the best. Human beings can be brilliant and
>still make mistakes.
>

Trungpa was a raving ego-maniac and a mean exploiter of
other people's weaknesses

>--
>Regards,
> Evelyn
>

Evelyn Ruut

unread,

Aug 14, 2004, 9:46:43 AM8/14/04

I just wanted to certify that what Norbu says below is exactly the truth as
I have read and heard it myself. I also read Diana Mukpo's writings, and
remember the quotes he mentions below. Furthermore, Norbu doesn't lie, and
he is a longtime poster to these boards, trusted in his knowledge. LSPA has
more than a few things incorrect. I know of several Trungpa students and
all speak of him with great respect and reverence.
--
Regards,
Evelyn

(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox")

"norbu_tragri" <norbu_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f36c6d29.04081...@posting.google.com...

cupcake

unread,

Aug 14, 2004, 10:01:34 AM8/14/04

Evilrot rote:

>I just wanted to certify that what Norbu says below is exactly the truth as
>I have read and heard it myself. I also read Diana Mukpo's writings, and
>remember the quotes he mentions below. Furthermore, Norbu doesn't lie, and
>he is a longtime poster to these boards, trusted in his knowledge. LSPA has
>more than a few things incorrect. I know of several Trungpa students and
>all speak of him with great respect and reverence.
>

and, that's all becuz they're all afraid that the boogie-man
will get them if they don't

>--
>Regards,
> Evelyn

>
>
>"norbu_tragri" <norbu_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

>[10]news:f36c6d29.04081...@posting.google.com...

>> Login with Secure Password Authentication <LordsS...@GlorytoHim.com>

>wrote in message [11]news:<v1lph0192e9je6l18...@4ax.com>...

Evelyn Ruut

unread,

Aug 14, 2004, 10:06:03 AM8/14/04

"cupcake" <t...@r.slrup> wrote in message

news:2XoTc.22$i_4...@news.more.net...

>
> Evilrot rote:
>
> >I just wanted to certify that what Norbu says below is exactly the truth
as
> >I have read and heard it myself. I also read Diana Mukpo's writings,
and
> >remember the quotes he mentions below. Furthermore, Norbu doesn't lie,
and
> >he is a longtime poster to these boards, trusted in his knowledge. LSPA
has
> >more than a few things incorrect. I know of several Trungpa students
and
> >all speak of him with great respect and reverence.
> >
>
>
> and, that's all becuz they're all afraid that the boogie-man
> will get them if they don't

Not so, Cuppie. In fact did you read what Hal Hesse said about Trungpa? I
reposted a bunch of stuff from different individuals who knew Trungpa, and
Hal made some very interesting comment. I agree with what he said.

Login with Secure Password Authentication

unread,

Aug 14, 2004, 10:29:21 AM8/14/04

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 11:13:44 -0400, Login with Secure Password
Authentication <LordsS...@GlorytoHim.com> wrote:

Trungpa Rinpoche was a severe alcoholic for decades
>who deteriorated to the point that he was not rational, and
>often comatose, for the last decade or so of his life. Some
>of his later, Shambhala-oriented, writings were written just
>after he came out of a coma or a psychotic fugue. I have
>lived in the Shambhala community for years, and had this
>from some of his Kusung, or personal assistants.
>
>Trungpa Rinpoche died as a result of severe cyrrhosis of
>the liver--the other organs shut down or lost function for years,

His heart and brain were particularly affected, by the way. The
brain damage (from the liver failure) is what made him comatose
and psychotic.

>as a result of the cyrrhosis, and this loss of major organ function
>is what killed him.

In order to avoid talking to people of objectionable moral character,
I'll confine a follow up point or to to this post.

>
>He left no instructions as to a re-incarnation, if you believe in
>such things (as a saved believer in the Lord Jesus Christ I do *not*,
>though I had several decades of Buddhist experience) beyond a *viva
>voce* remark that if he had to come back, he thought he'd be a
>Japanese engineer. He left no written recognition instructions, and
>his rather bizarre will and testament said merely "I will be haunting
>you."
>
>As an aside: there IS a reincarnation of Trunpa Rinpoche (i.e. a 12th
>Trungpa Rinpoche), but he is OUTSIDE THE CONTROL OF THE
>SHAMBHALA sangha (run by Trungpa's first son, now known variously
>as "Mipham Rinpoche" and "The Sakyong").

He was given the former title by Penor Rinpoche (did I REALLY call
him the "head" of the nyingma? I think not....) who was a bigwig in
the sect.

Penor (Pema Norbu) also recognized as reincarnated lamas

Steven Segall (of the movies)
Jetsunma (google search for this infamous nut)
and Trungpa's first son, the head of your cult.

>The re-incarnation lives in Tibet, at Surmang monastery, where he was
>installed after being recognized i think. Surmang was the monastery
>and lands owned by the Trungpas. When Chogyam Trungpa fled
>Tibet, he left a number of dependents and monks/lamas behind, and
>these "held down the fort" at Surmang and have endured the Chinese
>yoke.
>
>Quite a contrast to Trungpa's high-living hard-drinking,
>15-year-old-

####

>ing lifestyle. (one of his secondary wives
>was 15).

I should not have used the cuss word, but Trungpa was a polygamist.

One of his five (I know 2 well, both have married legally since)
secondary wives was 15 years old when she started the affair
with Trungpa, who was already legally married to another woman.

She had red hair, did this secondary wife. She was 15, and the affair
started when Trungpa was almost dead from the cyrrhosis of the liver.

The "secondary wives" existed alongside his ONE LEGAL WIFE--Diana
Mukpo, nee Pybus.

I've heard Diana was 16 when she met Trungpa, but any confusion of her
with the SECONDARY WIFE referred to belies ignorance (or wilfull
obfuscation) of the basic facts.

Diana Mukpo nee Pybus, btw, is a commoner--NOT
in the English Peerage. The Shambhala cult calls her
"Lady Diana" and tries to inflate her social importance
in England. Similarly, the Shambhala cult refers to the
mother of Trungpa's first recognized son (The Sakyong,
or "Mipham Rinpoche," who heads their cult now) as
"Lady Kunchok."

"Lady Kunchok" was a nun, and Trungpa a monk, when they
concieved their first son. The cult calls her Trungpa's "consort."
The Sakyong is pretty open about this arrangement.

So you've got:

A legal wife (Diana Mukpo, mother of 2 children)
A Consort (mother of the Sakyong, the first son)
and
5 Secondary Wives (one of whom was 15 when the affair started).

I am not surprised that, when someone fails my tests in which I refer
to or parody a name, they accuse me of lying or impersonating.

As a final point, and back to the issue: the monks in Surmang were
playing a piece of lama-politics, getting back at the rich Americans
who had left them to starve and suffer, when they recognized a tulku,
don't you think?

After all, when any of those lamas left, wasn't it like Dr.
Strangelove's plan to live in Mineshafts when the commies came? Take
the women and the top officials and those in favor--IF POSSIBLE-- and
leave everyone else to suffer.

Pema

unread,

Aug 14, 2004, 2:13:37 PM8/14/04

Login with Secure Password Authentication <LordsS...@GlorytoHim.com> wrote in message news:<qd8sh0hhjfdleu66l...@4ax.com>...

> On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 11:13:44 -0400, Login with Secure Password
> Authentication <LordsS...@GlorytoHim.com> wrote:
>
>
> Trungpa Rinpoche was a severe alcoholic for decades
> >who deteriorated to the point that he was not rational, and
> >often comatose, for the last decade or so of his life. Some
> >of his later, Shambhala-oriented, writings were written just
> >after he came out of a coma or a psychotic fugue. I have
> >lived in the Shambhala community for years, and had this
> >from some of his Kusung, or personal assistants.
> >
> >Trungpa Rinpoche died as a result of severe cyrrhosis of
> >the liver--the other organs shut down or lost function for years,
>
> His heart and brain were particularly affected, by the way. The
> brain damage (from the liver failure) is what made him comatose
> and psychotic.

what's your excuse?

>
> >as a result of the cyrrhosis, and this loss of major organ function
> >is what killed him.
>
> In order to avoid talking to people of objectionable moral character,
> I'll confine a follow up point or to to this post.

then you will never again speak to a single soul, for we are all
flawed and glorious in different ways. what you see as a weed may be
medicene or food for another. judgment is mine say the lord...

>
>
> >
> >He left no instructions as to a re-incarnation, if you believe in
> >such things (as a saved believer in the Lord Jesus Christ I do *not*,
> >though I had several decades of Buddhist experience) beyond a *viva
> >voce* remark that if he had to come back, he thought he'd be a
> >Japanese engineer. He left no written recognition instructions, and
> >his rather bizarre will and testament said merely "I will be haunting
> >you."
> >
> >As an aside: there IS a reincarnation of Trunpa Rinpoche (i.e. a 12th
> >Trungpa Rinpoche), but he is OUTSIDE THE CONTROL OF THE
> >SHAMBHALA sangha (run by Trungpa's first son, now known variously
> >as "Mipham Rinpoche" and "The Sakyong").
>
> He was given the former title by Penor Rinpoche (did I REALLY call
> him the "head" of the nyingma? I think not....) who was a bigwig in
> the sect.
>
> Penor (Pema Norbu) also recognized as reincarnated lamas
>
> Steven Segall (of the movies)
> Jetsunma (google search for this infamous nut)
> and Trungpa's first son, the head of your cult.

cult? if you look up the word in a dictionary you will find the
description of the basis and form of the christian religion incredibly
more so than buddhism. it has it's over abundant strutcure in some
areas, but we don't worship dieties, or buddha...that is a
misconception. such as people getting freaked over the thought of
thinking communion bread is really jesus body...it's not. you
apparently have misconceptions, now that you know...what will you
choose to do with them?

i have a feeling you've been nursing your misconceptions, like some
emotional grudge. all i can do is point it out to you, and see what
type of character you have. you are on a slippery slope of carrying
bitterness in your heart.
love,
pema

cupcake

unread,

Aug 14, 2004, 2:18:54 PM8/14/04

Pema Ballerina wrote:

>Login with Secure Password Authentication <LordsS...@GlorytoHim.com> wrote i

>n message [10]news:<qd8sh0hhjfdleu66l...@4ax.com>...

is that why American citizen Vajrayanis, followers of
the Dalai Lama, are on the Homeland Security "watch list"?

SwAmI

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Aug 14, 2004, 8:50:19 PM8/14/04

"Evelyn Ruut" <mama-l...@hvc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:UAoTc.95597$4h7.12...@twister.nyc.rr.com...

> "SwAmI" <no...@none.com> wrote in message
> news:xRgTc.1$P9...@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net...
> >
> > "Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:wk9Tc.20078$9Y6...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> > >
> > > "Login with Secure Password Authentication"
> <LordsS...@GlorytoHim.com>
> > > wrote in message news:v1lph0192e9je6l18...@4ax.com...
> > > >
> > > > I'm crossposting this to alt.magick as Tom was a Trungpa fan.
> > >
> > > Trungpa was a human being. We are all human beings. We say wise
things
> > and
> > > foolish things. We do wise things and foolish things.
> >
> > Don't be so damn judgemental Tom.
>
>
>
> Tom told it like it is.

I was just messing.

Tom

unread,

Aug 14, 2004, 8:23:46 PM8/14/04

"SwAmI" <no...@none.com> wrote in message
news:xRgTc.1$P9...@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net...
>

> "Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:wk9Tc.20078$9Y6...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> > "Login with Secure Password Authentication"
<LordsS...@GlorytoHim.com>
> > wrote in message news:v1lph0192e9je6l18...@4ax.com...
> > >
> > > I'm crossposting this to alt.magick as Tom was a Trungpa fan.
> >
> > Trungpa was a human being. We are all human beings. We say wise things
> and
> > foolish things. We do wise things and foolish things.
>
> Don't be so damn judgemental Tom.

I'm not really bad, I'm just written that way.

cupcake

unread,

Aug 14, 2004, 8:29:46 PM8/14/04

>
> Re: Re-incarnation of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche has been recognized
>

> From: "SwAmI" <no...@none.com>
> Reply to: [1]"SwAmI"
> Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 00:50:19 GMT
> Organization: NTL
> Newsgroups:
> [2]talk.religion.buddhism,
> [3]alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan,
> [4]alt.religion.buddhism,
> [5]alt.magick,
> [6]alt.religion.buddhism.ris-med
> Followup to: [7]newsgroups
> References:

> [8]<v1lph0192e9je6l18...@4ax.com>
> [9]<wk9Tc.20078$9Y6...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>
> [10]<xRgTc.1$P9...@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net>
> [11]<UAoTc.95597$4h7.12...@twister.nyc.rr.com>

>
>"Evelyn Ruut" <mama-l...@hvc.rr.com> wrote in message

>[12]news:UAoTc.95597$4h7.12...@twister.nyc.rr.com...

>> "SwAmI" <no...@none.com> wrote in message

>> [13]news:xRgTc.1$P9...@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net...

>> >
>> > "Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

>> > [14]news:wk9Tc.20078$9Y6...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

>> > >
>> > > "Login with Secure Password Authentication"
>> <LordsS...@GlorytoHim.com>

>> > > wrote in message [15]news:v1lph0192e9je6l18...@4ax.com...

>> > > >
>> > > > I'm crossposting this to alt.magick as Tom was a Trungpa fan.
>> > >
>> > > Trungpa was a human being. We are all human beings. We say wise
>things
>> > and
>> > > foolish things. We do wise things and foolish things.
>> >
>> > Don't be so damn judgemental Tom.
>>
>>
>>
>> Tom told it like it is.
>>
>
> I was just messing.
>

well, yu certainly did make a mess of my on-going
critique of Tibetan Vajrayanism -- next time,
don't be so frivolous, or we'll take away yer
secret decoder ring! :(

>
>---
>Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

>Checked by AVG anti-virus system ([16]http://www.grisoft.com).

cupcake

unread,

Aug 14, 2004, 8:37:24 PM8/14/04

>
> Re: Re-incarnation of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche has been recognized
>

> From: cupcake <t...@r.slrupA>
> Reply to: [1]cupcake
> Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 00:29:46 GMT
> Newsgroups:
> [2]talk.religion.buddhism,
> [3]alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan,
> [4]alt.religion.buddhism,
> [5]alt.magick,
> [6]alt.religion.buddhism.ris-med
> Followup to: [7]newsgroups
> References:

> [8]<fryTc.603$P91...@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net>

>>
>> Re: Re-incarnation of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche has been recognized
>>
>> From: "SwAmI" <no...@none.com>
>> Reply to: [1]"SwAmI"
>> Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 00:50:19 GMT
>> Organization: NTL
>> Newsgroups:
>> [2]talk.religion.buddhism,
>> [3]alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan,
>> [4]alt.religion.buddhism,
>> [5]alt.magick,
>> [6]alt.religion.buddhism.ris-med
>> Followup to: [7]newsgroups
>> References:
>> [8]<v1lph0192e9je6l18...@4ax.com>
>> [9]<wk9Tc.20078$9Y6...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>
>> [10]<xRgTc.1$P9...@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net>
>> [11]<UAoTc.95597$4h7.12...@twister.nyc.rr.com>
>>
>>"Evelyn Ruut" <mama-l...@hvc.rr.com> wrote in message

>>[12][9]news:UAoTc.95597$4h7.12...@twister.nyc.rr.com...

>>> "SwAmI" <no...@none.com> wrote in message

>>> [13][10]news:xRgTc.1$P9...@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net...

>>> >
>>> > "Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

>>> > [14][11]news:wk9Tc.20078$9Y6...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

>>> > >
>>> > > "Login with Secure Password Authentication"
>>> <LordsS...@GlorytoHim.com>

>>> > > wrote in message [15][12]news:v1lph0192e9je6l18...@4ax.com

>...
>>> > > >
>>> > > > I'm crossposting this to alt.magick as Tom was a Trungpa fan.
>>> > >
>>> > > Trungpa was a human being. We are all human beings. We say wise
>>things
>>> > and
>>> > > foolish things. We do wise things and foolish things.
>>> >
>>> > Don't be so damn judgemental Tom.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tom told it like it is.
>>>
>>
>> I was just messing.
>>
>
> well, yu certainly did make a mess of my on-going
> critique of Tibetan Vajrayanism -- next time,
> don't be so frivolous, or we'll take away yer
> secret decoder ring! :(
>
>

i mean, sometimes i think yu newbee trolls are
juzt to troublesome to bother with (i mean,
juzt look at Ch'an Fu as an example :(

but, Tang keeps saying that yu all are a
"vast resource"; so, i guess i gott'a
go along... :(

>
>
>>
>>---
>>Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

>>Checked by AVG anti-virus system ([16][13]http://www.grisoft.com).

Tom

unread,

Aug 14, 2004, 8:44:26 PM8/14/04

"Evelyn Ruut" <mama-l...@hvc.rr.com> wrote in message

news:UAoTc.95597$4h7.12...@twister.nyc.rr.com...

> > > Trungpa was a human being. We are all human beings. We say
> > > wise things and foolish things. We do wise things and foolish
> > > things.
> >
> > Don't be so damn judgemental Tom.
>
> Tom told it like it is.

SwAmi was just teasing me, I suspect. I've been lots harsher on others.

In other threads, I've been exploring the ways one might determine
"spiritual attainment" in an individual. What it comes down to, I guess, is
whatever you believe "spiituality" is. Can you believe that a drunken
Tibetan monk be a font of enlightenment, or is that impossible?

I recently questioned the validity of the spiritual insights of a man who
committed suicide, leaving behind a wife and infant child. Upon reflection,
I have to admit that his actions, though seemingly excrable to me, do not
mean that he was not spiritually insightful. It only means that he violated
my personal estimation of what comprises honorable behavior.

> I have known people very well who were Trungpa's students.
> The man was incredible. His books are the best. Human
> beings can be brilliant and still make mistakes.

Here's a story about Trungpa that I think is illustrative.

"After a while, I thought I should go and meet this man I admired. I got up,
walked to the table, put my palms together and bowed. Trungpa returned the
gesture. I asked some off-the-shelf question. When he opened his mouth to
reply, I was almost knocked down by the smell of alcohol. Still, I stayed
close. I wanted to hear the words of wisdom. Unfortunately, of the
perhaps-200 word response he gave, I understood precisely one word. That
word was 'Cheetos.'
Not having the nerve or the stomach to ask him to explain, I put my hands
together once more and bowed. I was about halfway up the bow when his hand
shot out like greased lightning, grabbed my two hands in his one, and gently
but firmly pulled my hands down. When I looked into his eyes with what must
have been surprise, it was as if he were saying, 'Let's not get carried away
with this nonsense.'
It was one of the best teachings I ever received and I am thankful for it to
this day."

Tom

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Aug 14, 2004, 8:45:24 PM8/14/04

"cupcake" <t...@r.slrup> wrote in message

news:xOoTc.21$i_4...@news.more.net...

>
> Trungpa was a raving ego-maniac and a mean exploiter of
> other people's weaknesses

As you wish. It's your head. Keep whatever you like in it.

cupcake

unread,

Aug 14, 2004, 9:13:43 PM8/14/04

>
> Re: Re-incarnation of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche has been recognized
>

> From: "Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net>
> Reply to: [1]"Tom"
> Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 00:45:24 GMT
> Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
> Newsgroups:
> [2]talk.religion.buddhism,
> [3]alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan,
> [4]alt.religion.buddhism,
> [5]alt.magick,
> [6]alt.religion.buddhism.ris-med
> Followup to: [7]newsgroups
> References:

> [8]<UAoTc.95597$4h7.12...@twister.nyc.rr.com>
> [9]<xOoTc.21$i_4...@news.more.net>

>
>"cupcake" <t...@r.slrup> wrote in message

>[10]news:xOoTc.21$i_4...@news.more.net...

>>
>> Trungpa was a raving ego-maniac and a mean exploiter of
>> other people's weaknesses
>>
>
> As you wish. It's your head. Keep whatever you like in it.
>

well, considering that it's quite obvious, for all
the world to see, that yu've got mush fer brains,
i feel considerably superior to yer fucked-up
Vajra self

norbu_tragri

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Aug 15, 2004, 8:47:31 AM8/15/04

Login with Secure Password Authentication <LordsS...@GlorytoHim.com> wrote in message news:<qd8sh0hhjfdleu66l...@4ax.com>...

> On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 11:13:44 -0400, Login with Secure Password
> Authentication <LordsS...@GlorytoHim.com> wrote:

<snip>

REINCARNATION, THE 12TH TRUNGPA TULKU, AND THE SHAMBHALA SANGHA

4.a."He left no instructions as to a re-incarnation, if you believe in

such things (as a saved believer in the Lord Jesus Christ I do *not*,
though I had several decades of Buddhist experience) beyond a *viva
voce* remark that if he had to come back, he thought he'd be a
Japanese engineer. He left no written recognition instructions, and
his rather bizarre will and testament said merely 'I will be haunting

you.'"

Close, but...The version i heard was that he might decide to come back
as a Japanese fisherman if his students didn't practice. You believe
the Father reincarnated as the Son, who died, and *came back to life
again*...and that all dead people 'reincarnate' in heaven or hell. And
it's obvious that your memories of the Vidyadhara are haunting you,
just as they haunt much of the Western development of buddhadharma.
Hence not a bizarre statement. Strike one.

4.b. "As an aside: there IS a reincarnation of Trunpa Rinpoche (i.e. a

12th Trungpa Rinpoche), but he is OUTSIDE THE CONTROL OF THE SHAMBHALA
sangha (run by Trungpa's first son, now known variously as "Mipham
Rinpoche" and "The Sakyong")."

No. See below. Strike two.

4.c. "Now, the Shambhala cult refers--if at all---to the official
(heh) reincarnation of Trungpa as "*the* Surmang tulku." This use of
the definite article indicates their hopes that they can start a
conflict (and *decades* of litigation, like the Karma Kagyu-- ah,so
THAT is the legacy of the buddha that lasts on through time heh heh)
over which tulku is the real tulku. But they don't have a candidate
yet."

"As a final point, and back to the issue: the monks in Surmang were
playing a piece of lama-politics, getting back at the rich Americans
who had left them to starve and suffer, when they recognized a tulku,
don't you think?"

No, all Trungpa tulkus have always been refered to as "the Surmang
tulku". The lineage holder of the 11th Trungpa's Shambhala teachings
is Mipham Rinpoche, and these teaching will be passed on to the 12th
Trungpa tulku. Tulkus recieve lineage teachings from the lineage
holders of the previous tulku. There is no 'power-struggle' as you
imagine (gleefully), nor will some rival tulku ever be proposed.
Strike three.

LAYING NEW FOUNDATIONS IN TIBET
A report on the visit to Tibet by Lady Diana Mukpo & her family,
and the activities of the Konchok Foundation
- by Derek Kolleeny

---
The, pilgrimage of Lady Diana Mukpo and her family to Tibet this past
summer was an enormous success, It felt like going home. Meeting the
people of Surmang Dutsi-til - the former residence of Chogyam Trungpa
Rinpoche, the 11th Trungpa Tulku and founder of Shambhala
International, and the place where he received his training -- was
like visiting the hometown of our family lineage,
---

Big-hearted people welcomed us with open arms and huge smiles. We
challenged ourselves throughout the trip to offer the people of
Surmang a taste of the teachings of the 11th Trungpa Tulku in the West
by manifesting the wisdom and presence of the Shambhala lineage. How
well we rose to that challenge is a question that can only be answered
by the people we encountered.

Everywhere we went, we were received with graciousness, respect,
and deep affection. Lady Diana Mukpo and the Lamen Dr. Mitchell Levy
were invited to give lungs (oral transmissions) to the monks and
villagers of Surmang. <One of the many photos printed with this
article shows Lady Diana teaching, and notes that this is the first
time in living memory that a woman had been enthoned and taught at
Surmang. - nt> From our point of view, this marked the very real link
between the Shambhala lineage, established in North America by the
Vidyadhara, Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, and the Kagyu lineage of
Surmang, the traditional lineage of the Trungpa Tulkus.

Lady Diana and the Lamen were also invited to participate in a
discussion about the ongoing training of the 12th Trungpa Tulku. "We
agreed that Surmang was the best place for his training to take place
for at least the next five years," said the Lamen afterward. "Keeping
him there ensures that he will receive all the unique teachings and
transmissions of Surmang Dutsi-til, preserving the integrity of the
Trungpa lineage. It was also agreed that the best person to
communicate this decision to his father was Lady Diana herself. It
seemed we had come full-circle: we were fortunate enough to receive
the benefits of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche in coming to the West to
plant the victory banner of dharma in North America. Now, we've had
the opportunity to be involved in the decision of how to train the
next Trungpa Talku and to offer our ongoing support in this process."

The visit by the party to Shechen Monastery was another important
highlight of the trip. This was the second visit of Shechen Kongtrul
Tulku, Gesar Mukpo (the second son of Lady Diana and the Vidyadhara)
and he was met with great excitement and fanfare. In 1976, Gesar was
recognized and enthroned as an incarnation of Shechen Kongtrul, one of
Trungpa Rinpoche's primary teachers, by His Holiness Dilgo Khyentse
Rinpoche. Gesar conducted a lung in the courtyard of the monastery and
met with the people in this area. His visits to the new shedra
(monastic school) and the lay school were quite moving. His strong
presence and dignity during the visit were felt by the Shechen
community and by those of us in the traveling party.

Also on the trip, and traveling to Tibet for the first time, was
Ashoka Mukpo (the son of Lady Diana and Lamen Mitchell Levy) who was
recognized in 1981 at the age of two months as the 9th Khamnyon Tulku
by the 16th Gyalwa Karmapa. Many people from Karma Gon monastery, his
traditional seat as abbot, came to see Ashoka during our visit. The
evolution of trust and appreciation that occurred between Ashoka and
the local people was extremely moving and rewarding. Karma Gon
monastery has been without an abbot for 20 years, and it was wonderful
to take part in this reunion. Overall, the result of this pilgrimage
for Lady Diana, for the entire party-and probably for any member of
our community that travels to these sacred sites-has been the
discovery of a strong connection to the people and places. Equally
strong is our commitment to helping rebuild and develop the spiritual
and economic spheres of these communities.

During Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche's historic first trip to Surmang and
Eastern Tibet in the summer of 2001, he brought with him and donated
initial funds raised for Surmang from an appeal to sangha members
coordinated by Charles Marrow While there, he decided to establish a
foundation to provide ongoing support for various projects in Tibet.
This foundation would focus on projects in two areas of Eastern Tibet:
Surmang, the home of the Trungpa lineage and the Surmang Kagyu; and
Golok, the home of the great Nyingma master the first Mipham Rinpoche
and a number of Nyingma monasteries with which the Sakyong is
connected. In honor of his mother, the Sakyong named this organization
the Konchok Foundation. During the past year, Derek Kolleeny and Peter
Volz have begun work on this foundation, and with the help of Jeanine
Greenleaf and Samadhi Cushions, have raised funds for Surmang and the
Wayen Monastery in the Golok region of eastern Tibet.

As part of the work of the Konchok Foundation in the Surmang area,
Lady Diana, the Lamen Dr. Mitchell Levy, and a group of students from
the Shambhala community have begun work on the Surmang Project, which
is dedicated to the support and development of Surmang Dutsi-til. For
many years, the lay residents in the areas surrounding Surmang
Diatsi-til have endured extreme hardship, due in part to the fact that
the 11th Trungpa Tulku was forced to escape to India, and to eventual
freedom in the West. There was no major teacher in this area until
twelve years ago, when Aten Rinpoche and Rolpe Dorje both arrived.
This has resulted in a lack of support and resources for both the
monastery and the district. There is an urgent need to revitalize,
restore, and nurture the community The Mukpo family is committed to
helping with this effort through the Project.

THE SURMANG PROJECT

The mission of Konchok Foundation's Surmang Project is to and offer
back to the people of Surmang a debt that we owe their loss and our
gain in the presence and teachings of the Vidyadhara, Chogyam Trungpa
Rinpoche. This is an auspicious close the circle" with our dharma
family in the Surmang are goals of the Surmang Project are threefold:
• To provide for the ongoing education and support of the Trungpa
Tulku;
•To build and support the operation of a combined shedra and public
school for the education of both monks and local village children at
Surmang (one floor will be dedicated to the education of lay
children);
• To help nurture the economic development and growth of the villages
in the Surmang district.

FIRST STEPS

This fall, the Surmang Project made some first steps toward
achieving its goals, The Konchok Foundation and Shambhala
International brought Tamcho Rinpoche, Trungpa Rinpoche's brother, to
Beijing for medical attention. With the help of Khenpo Tsering Gyurme
from Surmang Monastery, Tamcho Rinpoche underwent a thorough medical
examination. In addition, funds raised for Lady Diana's trip along
with funds raised by the Konchok Foundation were donated to Surmang
for the education and support of the 12th Trungpa Tulku, the other
lamas and monks of Surmang, and for developing the combined Surmang
shedra school. The leadership of Surmang has since cleared the site
for the school and begun developing plans and budgets for this
project.

SURMANG FOUNDATION

The Konchok Foundation is indebted to Lee Weingrad and the Surmang
Foundation, as the pioneer institution of philanthropy at Surmang
Monastery. Mr. Weingrad's tireless efforts have created the ground
from which all future projects can take root and prosper. The many
volunteers of Surmang Foundation have worked hard against daunting
odds at Surmang over the past years. They have built a medical clinic,
provided medical care to thousands of residents, provided support to
the 12th Trungpa Tulku, and helped in other ways to provide for the
local people. The members of the Konchok Foundation look forward to
working with the Surmang Foundation in helping to develop the Surmang
area.

FUTURE PLANS

Next year the Konchok Foundation will again sponsor a visit for
members of Shambhala International to Surmang. You are invited to take
part in this trip. It will be for approximately two weeks, during July
of 2003. In addition, Shambhala international and the Kc)nchok
Foundation are working on plans to bring Tamcho Rinpoche and Karma
Seng-ge Rinpoche, the Vidhyadhara's nephew, to North America in the
near future. Karma Seng-ge Rinpoche spent many years collecting and
compiling the works of Trungpa Rinpoche written before he fled Tibet
in 1959. The Nalanda Translation Committee is currently working on
translations of several of these texts.,,

from The Dot vol.1, no.1 winter 2002

more at:
http://www.shambhala.org/int/tibettripindex.html
http://www.shambhala.org/int/ld_tibet.html

Total strike out on the fourth issue.

----------------------------------------------------

FOLLOW-UP: SANG-YUMS FOUL BALL OR STRIKE-OUT?

"Quite a contrast to Trungpa's high-living hard-drinking,

15-year-old-fucking lifestyle. (one of his secondary wives was 15)."

As i said before, if -you- are unclear or -puposefully deceptive- in
your speech, it's no test. If i hinted at the Vatican's Doctor's names
and you didn't recognize them, would that be a test you 'failed'?
Could i then claim that you falsely claimed to be a Christian? I could
go on endlessly about American history, using all sorts of names, and
thus testing you and failing your claim to be an American? That's
rubbish. Especially if i posted under false names to create further
attempted deceptions.

Lord Mukpo's first 'wife' (when he was 16) was was Lady Kunchok
Palden, to whom was born Ösel Rangdröl Mukpo in 1962 in Bodhagaya,
India. He spent his early years with his mother in a Tibetan refugee
village in northwest India, where he began his study of Buddhism. At
the age of seven, he went to live with his father in Great Britain,
and in 1972, he joined his father in the United States, where he
continued his education.

Lord Mukpo's secound 'wife' was Diana Pybus (when she was 16 and he
was 22). The Sakyong Wangmo.

They are both "Lady" as holders of the Mukpo clan of King/Lord Gesar
of Ling. Your supposition that it implied some false clame of peerage
in England was typical of what happens when you try to see the worst
in everything.

Also your wording was misleading ('secoundary wife') for anyone trying
to see this in it's Tibetan context.

"A legal wife (Diana Mukpo, mother of 2 children)
A Consort (mother of the Sakyong, the first son)
and
5 Secondary Wives (one of whom was 15 when the affair started)."

Traditional Tibetan society has both polygamous and polyandry
marriages, as well as consorts for any partners. Western Monogomy is a
foreign value system there. **There is a clear distinction between
wives and 'consorts' however.** And the Western notion of "consort"
doesn't begin to describe the role of a Sangyum: who are formally
empowered with "a life long designation as a personal representative"
of his/her consort. It is a position of mutual trust and respect,
***not a victim of some random randy 'fucking'.***

"I should not have used the cuss word, but Trungpa was a polygamist."

So are millions of people who aren't Christian. All non-christians are
evil and damned to hell? i don't think the Catholic church has that
dogma anymore...some sort of kinder gentler policy regarding pagans...

No, i have never met any of VCTR's Sangyum's, and i have only heard of
a few. A recent Shambhala Lodge group reported:

"To promote harmony and peace in the kingdom, we feel that there is
great value in paying more attention to the intangible aspect of life:
both in how we relax, relate and care for each other and in how we
practice, study, work and celebrate together. To promote gentleness,
space, and insight, we encourage the administration to actively and
formally invite the wisdom of the sangyum into their activities; let
us remember we have several women in our community, the sangyum of the
Druk Sakyong, who embody this wisdom principle and could act as
valuable resources.

"To promote a deeper understanding of the importance of balancing the
tangible and intangible aspects of out being, we encourage that as we
study, teach and develop curricula, we thoroughly explore both the
feminine and masculine principles that are inherent in our teachings
and practices. Deeper understanding could be the basis of manifesting
these principles in a balanced way."

SANGYUM AGNESS AU
Born in Shanghai China, Agness immigrated with her family to Hong Kong
and later to San Francisco where she grew up. Agness moved to New York
City after graduating from college, to pursue careers in the fashion
industry as a model and designer.

When Agness first met the Vidyadhara Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche in 1975,
spirituality was not of particular interest to her. However, intrigued
by his enormous power of intellect, the depth of his understanding of
reality and his ability to work with the worlds of emotions, the arts
and much more, she soon became a student.

From 1985-1990, Agness was the New York Shambhala Training co-resident
director and has been teaching since 1982. In 1985, Agness was
empowered as a Sangyum, a life long designation as a personal
representative of the Vidyadhara. In the past five years, she has
developed a curriculum and leads workshops internationally on the
union of the feminine and masculine principles in Shambhala. This
summer, Agness and several other teachers will lead a five-day
conference on this material, at Shambhala Mountain Center, entitled
Feast of Inseparable Union. Visit the retreat web site for more
details.

Professionally, Agness has been a fashion designer for 25 years and is
presently a consultant to the fashion and retail trades. Happily
married for 23 years, she is the mother of two teenaged boys.
----------------------------------------

A TRIBUTE TO CIEL

Ciel Turzanski was a truly remarkable woman. She held a completely
unique seat in our Shambhala world and touched so many people in a
very deep and personal way.

When Ciel was 18, the Vidyadhara chose her to be one of his Sangyum
- a heart companion and close confidant. She assumed this seat of high
honour completely naturally and gracefully, without any hesitation,
and from that spot, extended her spontaneous kindness.

Ciel's brilliant blue eyes radiated a great inner beauty. She was
fun-loving and mischievous, sparkling and engaging, a great friend,
perceptive and aware, compassionate and warm. She possessed great
strength of character and was daring and brave. The Vidyadhara named
her Drukmo Nyima, "Dragon Lady Sun."

The purity of Ciel's love and devotion for the Vidyadhara and his
world suffused her approach to everything. The Vidyadhara asked her to
make the Dorje Kasung her special responsibility, which pleased her
enormously, for she loved that manifestation of his mind: the deep
bond of close camaraderie, Encampment fires under clear night skies,
skirmishes, the play of tactics and strategy, awake without
aggression. This was for Gel sheer delight. She loved Sun Camp as
well, joyfully caring for and helping to bring young people along the
path of warriorship.

Because of her open heart, Ciel was deeply affected by the
vicissitudes of life. She worked valiantly to overcome the effects of
numerous traumatic events which occurred in her life, Through all of
this, she always kept close to her heart her love for the Vidyadhara
and for his uplifted and brilliant vision.

With great poignancy and deep admiration, we remember Ciel who
graced our lives so uniquely. Inspired by her example, may genuine
devotion to the guru and true kindness to one another blossom and
infuse everything we do.

Ki Ki So So!
The Turzanski Family
- from The Dot, vol.1, no.2 spring 2003

No one was ever told to imitate this Tibetan p.o.v., by the way. The
Hippies of the early years would have rejected anyone who wasn't
pro-'free-love', but us middling types were typical Western romantics
looking for 'a' spouse. Marpa was a millionaire, and Milarepa
penniless: we are not told to imitate our teachers.

You are awarded an extra three strikes on this topic for being a
cultural chauvenist.

Stay tuned, as every factual flop will be scrutinized. (Hard to top
your blooper on the 12th Trungpa tulku though...)

Tom

unread,

Aug 15, 2004, 10:07:15 AM8/15/04

"cupcake" <t...@r.slrup> wrote in message

news:bNyTc.50$i_4...@news.more.net...

> >
> > From: "Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net>
> >
> >"cupcake" <t...@r.slrup> wrote in message
> >[10]news:xOoTc.21$i_4...@news.more.net...
> >>
> >> Trungpa was a raving ego-maniac and a mean exploiter of
> >> other people's weaknesses
> >
> > As you wish. It's your head. Keep whatever you like in it.
>
> well, considering that it's quite obvious, for all
> the world to see, that yu've got mush fer brains,
> i feel considerably superior to yer fucked-up
> Vajra self

Why are you exploiting my weaknesses so meanly?

You denounces another for being an "ego-maniac" and yet feel the need to
tell me how superior you are.

What does this mean, I wonder?

cupcake

unread,

Aug 15, 2004, 5:07:43 PM8/15/04

>
> Re: Re-incarnation of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche has been recognized
>
> From: "Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net>
> Reply to: [1]"Tom"
> Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 14:07:15 GMT
> Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
> Newsgroups:
> [2]talk.religion.buddhism,
> [3]alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan,
> [4]alt.religion.buddhism,
> [5]alt.magick,
> [6]alt.religion.buddhism.ris-med
> Followup to: [7]newsgroups
> References:

> [8]<EmyTc.22415$9Y6....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>
> [9]<bNyTc.50$i_4...@news.more.net>

>
>"cupcake" <t...@r.slrup> wrote in message

>[10]news:bNyTc.50$i_4...@news.more.net...

>> >
>> > From: "Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net>
>> >
>> >"cupcake" <t...@r.slrup> wrote in message

>> >[10][11]news:xOoTc.21$i_4...@news.more.net...

>> >>
>> >> Trungpa was a raving ego-maniac and a mean exploiter of
>> >> other people's weaknesses
>> >
>> > As you wish. It's your head. Keep whatever you like in it.
>>
>> well, considering that it's quite obvious, for all
>> the world to see, that yu've got mush fer brains,
>> i feel considerably superior to yer fucked-up
>> Vajra self
>>
>
>Why are you exploiting my weaknesses so meanly?
>
>You denounces another for being an "ego-maniac" and yet feel the need to
>tell me how superior you are.
>
>What does this mean, I wonder?
>

be gone with you! i will not tolerate your impudence!

Tom

unread,

Aug 15, 2004, 9:58:30 PM8/15/04

"cupcake" <t...@r.slrup> wrote in message

news:zgQTc.61$i_4...@news.more.net...

> >
> > From: "Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net>
> >
> >Why are you exploiting my weaknesses so meanly?
> >
> >You denounces another for being an "ego-maniac" and yet feel the need to
> >tell me how superior you are.
> >
> >What does this mean, I wonder?
>
> be gone with you! i will not tolerate your impudence!

Ah, now I know what it means.

norbu_tragri

unread,

Aug 23, 2004, 8:36:07 AM8/23/04

norbu_...@yahoo.com (norbu_tragri) wrote in message news:<f36c6d29.04081...@posting.google.com>...

> Login with Secure Password Authentication <LordsS...@GlorytoHim.com> wrote in message news:<qd8sh0hhjfdleu66l...@4ax.com>...
> > On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 11:13:44 -0400, Login with Secure Password
> > Authentication <LordsS...@GlorytoHim.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>

Continuing the replies to the various issues raised, as promised (two
more posts after this to finish):

Point five:

5. "Do not believe any of the regulars on
alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan at present--2 of them are followers of
disgraced cults."

5.a. NYINGMA - TULKUS

This notion you have that Penor Rinpoche has somehow disgraced himself
and hence also 'The Nyigmapas' is flawed on at leas two points:

1. The Nyingmapa are not a unified sect or school as-such under some
'Authority', rather 'Nyingmapa' ('old tradition') is a term that
refers to all the various and diverse Buddhist traditions in Tibet
that survived Langdarma's persecution and use texts translated back
then, before the 'new translation' traditions of the Kagyu and Sakya -
hence not "a" cult, or school, etc, and Penor Rinpoche is a teacher
among many independent teachers of the old translation lineages.

2. You don't seem to know that the Tibetan word tulku -does not- mean
"a reincarnated enlightened being", but rather has several meanings,
as there are (at least) three differnt kinds of human tulkus:
functional, blessed, and direct.

The vast majority of tulkus are 'functional' or 'direct', and neither
of these types of tulkus are intended to represent actual
"re-incarnations" of specific teachers. Both these types of tulkus
depend on disciplined spiritual training to be other than typically
confused human beings. Out of thousands of tulkus per generation only
a few are thought to be 'direct tulkus', i.e., the intentional return
of a previous teacher to continue to help beings.

So what are the majority of tulkus said to be? (Such as 'Jetsunma',
etc. that you imagone Penor erred and disgraced the Nyingma with..)
...

i have here edited down (severly, to just the gist) Acarya Rays'
article "Bodhisattvas In The World" which explains the complex
meanings of the Tibetan word "tulku":

The term tulku translates the Sanskrit word nirmanakaya, which may be
glossed as "pure physical body" < literally nirmanakaya means
"measured-out embodiment/gestalt", the sense sphere of the rupadhatu.
- n.t.>

The foundations of the tulku phenomenon are established in earliest
Buddhism. In traditions reflected in the Pall canon, for example,
Shaky苔muni Buddha is understood as having been a bodhisattva who, on
his journey to full enlightenment, was reborn over and over, working
for the benefit of others....Within Vajrayana Buddhism in India, the
siddhas are understood as high-level bodhisattvas....One can see this
in the Lives of the Eighty-four Siddhas, where certain siddhas exhibit
power over rebirth and other abilities and powers of the accomplished
bodhisattvas.

As we have seen, for Tibetan Buddhism the "real person" that we are is
found not in the conditioned, "historical" individual with which most
of us identify, but rather in the more timeless qualities of
enlight苟nment that reside within. If we continue to be reborn, life
after life, apparently as single, ordinary people, it is not because
this is the way we really are, but because we have not yet realized
our true nature and are bound to such a limited existence by our own
ignorance.

Some tulkus might be considered quite realized, but others might be
understood as much more ordinary.

At first glance, the concept of the tulku seems fairly
straightforward. A person is born (1) who is considered a "pure
incarnation" operating from a standpoint of wisdom rather than ego and
(2) who is identified as the reincarnation of a previous holy person.
However, there are prob衍ems with each of these two parts of the
definition. First, it is not clear that all tulkus are fully realized
people; in fact, Tibetan experience makes clear a wide range in the
levels of attainment of people called tulkus. Second, the idea that a
tulku is in all cases a literal reincarnation of a specific former
person seems questionable. For example, tulkus who do not exhibit an
exceptionally high level of attainment would not pos貞ess the powers
to be able to select their own rebirth. On a more practi苞al level,
many people identified as tulkus claim to have no memories of their
former lives or feeling of connection with the previous incarna負ion.
Most tulkus that one talks to agree that there is spiritual validity
to the tradition, but they often have many questions about how it
should be understood and explained.

(1 Functional Tulkus)

First are those who are tulkus more in name than in fact. These are
ordinary people whom tradition has placed in the position of a tulku,
to fulfill certain religious, social, and political functions. Such a
person is not a genuine tulku in the strict sense of the word because
he is not really the reincarnation of an earlier, identified saint and
has no connec負ion with that person.

...Thrangu Rinpoche considers the matter of tulkus who, for one reason
or another, are not reborn to continue the tuIku line but go somewhere
else. Rinpoche is particularly interested in how an incarnation may
still be "discovered."

"His or her pupils, not knowing this, would go to the Karmapa and ask
about the reincarnation, and the Karmapa couldn't say, 'He hasn't come
back,' Instead, the Karmapa would say some負hing like, 'Well,
maybe this child could be him, and it will be beneficial if you choose
him.' Believing the child was the tulku, the students would find him,
give him training, and his practice would benefit many beings."
(Thrangu Rinpoche, The Treatise That Differentiates Consciousness And
Wisdom)

"The Karmapa had given me the name of Thrangu Tulku, because it would
be very beneficial for me. Otherwise, I would have either become a
merchant like my father, or worked in the fields like my mother.
Having been recognized as Thrangu Tulku, I became a monk, received
teachings from many lamas and had the opportunity to practice the
dharma. So he didn't declare me to be the Thrangu Tulku because I was
the actual tulku, but in order for me to carry on the work of the
Thrangu Tulkus, which is what I am now doing." (ibid.)

(2 Blessed Tulkus)

The second type described by Trungpa Rinpoche is that of the "blessed
tulku." Most of the tulkus that we are aware of in the West would be
of this category. Rinpoche mentioned that some of the better known
incarnation lines, including that of Trungpa Tulkus belong to this
type. **The "blessed tulkus" should also not be understood as being
the literal reincarnation of the previous person.** Then what is the
rela負ion of the previous person to the reincarnation? The previous
person chooses someone who is very close to him or selects some
passing bodhi貞attva who is still on the path. Then the previous
person transfers his spiritual energy to this other individual. The
energy transmitted is the spiritual force or character of the tulku
and his line that the previous master himself had received from his
own "predecessor." This new in苓ividual, then, is recognized as the
reincarnation of the previous person. Trungpa Rinpoche remarks that
blessed tulkus are people who are al訃eady somewhat advanced on the
path and are for that reason chosen by the previous incarnation.

**In order for a blessed tulku to be able to fulfill his calling,
however, rigorous training and education are necessary.**

"Such tulkus have to be raised and educated; they have to go
through training and practice. . . . So these people have a great deal
of potentiality. But they haven't quite realized it so therefore they
have to go through the training and education.... "( Trungpa Rinpoche,
'74 Seminary Transcript)

Sometimes blessed tulkus have memories of their previous incarna負ion.
Trungpa Rinpoche com衫ented that in his case, as a blessed tulku, he
felt that he was not the actual person of the tenth Trungpa. "I'm not
him exactly, but I have part of his memory, part of his being, maybe."

What happens to the previous incarnation, once he has transmitted his
spiritual energy to someone else, so that that person can become the
new incarnation? ....although the predecessor has
passed his spiri負ual energy on to the one who will be the new
incarnation, his original realization and spiritual energy are still
with him. Trungpa Rinpoche: "Once you give energy, you don't give it
away; you radiate energy but you have the same amount of energy left,
exactly the same volume." Thus it is that the person who has
transferred his energy to another returns to this world but in a
different guise.

"Those original people also come back to this world, not as the
reincarnation of themselves particularly, but anonymously, incognito,
so to speak. They come back as farmers or fishermen or businessmen or
politicians or whatever. They don't necessar虹ly have to come back
into a Buddhist environment ... because the teachings of enlightenment
could be taught at any level. People can be helped at all kinds of
levels.... There are possi苑ilities of meeting such people who never
heard or thought about any form of the teachings of Buddha but who
somehow are realized in themselves. And in such cases some memories
exist within them; they have some idea of their basic being. But
there's no point in advertising that eccentricity, particularly if
they're going to communicate with the ordinary world." (ibid.)

Trungpa Rinpoche remarked that the notion of the blessed tulku may be
hard for Westerners to comprehend. Why? Because we tend to believe
ourselves to be one entity, one existent self, with a relatively fixed
identity and solid and definite boundaries. Within this belief system,
it is perhaps not possible to conceive that another person could
inject a certain spiritual energy into us that would dramatically
alter our direc負ion and determine our next birth. When one is not so
invested in the idea of a unitary, solid, separate ego, however, more
possibilities imme苓iately open up. One can conceive of the "person"
as a center of con貞ciousness, a vortex of awareness that is open and
permeable to other energies and emotions outside of the perimeter of
one's concept of "self".

(3 Direct Tulkus)

The third type is what Trungpa Rinpoche calls the "direct tulku." This
is a bodhisattva of a high level who takes rebirth over and over to
help sentient beings. The direct tulku is understood as the actual,
literal reincarnation of a previous realized master.

But even in the case of the direct tulku, we should not make the
assumption of a single "self" that is reborn over and over. In some
cases, a direct tulku might, in his next birth, split into five
separate incarna負ions representing his body, speech, mind, quality,
and action. This was, for example, the case with Jamgon Kongtrol the
Great, the renowned Ri-me scholar of the nineteenth century.
Subsequent to the death of this master, five incarnations were
anticipated, and several of these were identified, each becoming the
source of a subsequent line of tulkus. In cases such as these, each of
the five tulkus is understood to have a "di訃ect" link to the previous
incarnation, as reincarnations of his 'santana', or life stream, but
in five separate forms.

In fact, Rinpoche said, we are composed of enlightened energies that
are held together and maintained in a unitary stream only because of
the strength of our belief in an "I". Once this is removed, many more
things become possible.

For the direct tulku, education is viewed as having no basic effect
on his under貞tanding or realization. It has for its explicit purpose
demonstrating the Buddhist path to his disciples and acquiring the
tools he needs to carry on his work of helping others. For the blessed
tulku, by contrast, the training and education are essential to his
own development. The expe訃ience of learning is also said to be
different for the two types of tulkus. For direct tulkus, "learning"
has mainly the quality of review, as if one were refreshing oneself
with something already known. For blessed tulkus, there is rather the
experience that something is actually being learned and a journey is
being made.

The blessed tulku is strongly affected by his birth situation and
family. If there is heavy neurosis in his environment, he may pick
this up; if he fails to receive the right kind of training, he may not
develop his higher qualities. Direct tulkus, by contrast, are much
more inwardly driven and much less dependent on the particular
conditions of their environment.

"Eventually, there were numerous tulkus in Tibet, some of whom had bad
behavior, some who were unintelligent, which made some people wonder
whether there was anything special about
tulkus. (On the other hand, the tulku may have practiced very
dili茆ently and have lead a very pure life, and so be recognized
lifetime after lifetime." (Thrangu Rinpoche, The Treatise That
Differentiates Consciousness And Wisdom.

........................

When one looks at the actual Tibetan situation, the way in which
tulkus appear is not nearly so tidy as this three-leveled schema might
suggest. There were hundreds and even perhaps thousands of tulku lines
in Tibet, reflecting different regions, schools, lineages, types of
training, and specific monastic traditions. There was a considerable
variety and diversity of those called tulkus.

The situation is complicated by the fact that no individual tulku and
no line of tulkus has a necessary and static value associated with it.
At any given time, within a particular lineage and within the larger
world of Tibetan Buddhism, there is a kind of official hierarchy of
the differ苟nt lines of tulkus. But equally important in each
generation is not the assigned value but the extent to which a
particular tulku lives up to the expectations of his teachers, his
disciples, and his devotees, the extent to which he "proves" himself.
In other words, the estimation of a tulku and his line will ultimately
depend on the qualities of wisdom and com計assion that the current
incarnation shows, the various powers and abill負ies he exhibits in
his teaching, and his effectiveness in helping his followers.

The stature of a tulku will undergo changes during his life, either
ascending if he is a truly remarkable and selfless person, or perhaps
declining if he has not been able to fulfill the expectations put upon
him. Sometimes, a very modest line will, through the appearance of an
extraordinary incarnation, suddenly become endowed with the greatest
prestige. In Tibetan Buddhism, then, there is always
the "official" status of a line of tulkus or a particular incarnation,
but alongside this there is the unofficial, general consensus as to
who are in fact the most accom計lished masters.

The theory surrounding the tulku phenomenon, then, is not a cut and
dried matter, and there is no final and definitive dogma to it.

The tulku tradition, amid its variety and its ups and downs, is
per虐aps best understood as an attempt to locate particular children
within the culture who either possess or have an unusual potential to
develop a certain quality in a high measure. What is this quality? It
is the uncon苓itioned energy of intelligence that is not ego-bound,
with its insight and compassion, in other words, the inherent
wakefulness or buddha要ature within. In its best and most authentic
manifestations, the tulku tradition attempts not only to locate such
children but to train them to as high a level as possible and put them
in a position where this selfless intelligence can be made available
to the rest of the culture. The facts that personal and political
ambitions sometimes confused or even de苯eated the process, and that
not every tulku was a saint, do nothing to diminish the power of the
idea and the remarkable fact that, at least in many cases, the
tradition was actually able to succeed in its alms.

As we gradu苔lly come to realization of our primordial identity, then
the limitations under which we currently suffer will begin to fall
away. At a certain point, like others who have traveled the path
before us, we will arrive at the stage of high level bodhisattvas,
able to undertake conscious re苑irth to assist others, to separate our
energies into several discrete streams, to attain multiple rebirths,
and to manifest simultaneously throughout the six realms of samsara in
fulfillment of our vow to save all beings. Eventually, as the great
master Asanga states in the Bodhi貞attva-bhumi, we will be able to
manifest ourselves in dreams and vi貞ions, as food to the hungry and
water to those who thirst, and as balm to the sick. We will become
protection to the oppressed, clouds and rain in time of drought, or
earth, water, fire, and wind, and anything that can bring relief to
those who suffer.

"He or she resembles the sun, which, although one form in the sky,
will appear reflected in as many containers of water as can be placed
on the ground." (Jamgon Kongtrul, Enthronement, speaking of the tulkus
or emanations of his friend, the master Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
excerpted from Acarya Ray's article "Themes Of A Tulku's Life" :

It is clear, however, that the challenges to maintaining the tuIku
tra苓ition in exile are steep. In particular, of the seven factors
mentioned above, in the exile situation not one of them exists in its
traditional form. For example, in the modern cultural context, the
values of personal happiness and fulfillment have obviously become
rampant, and younger Tibetans living in exile - whether tulkus or
others - are probably far more influenced by these values than one
might expect. The ideas of nonself and the service of others are
certainly still taught and accepted; however, the impact of a modern
world in which the existence of a solid self lies at the basis of all
social, political, and economic life cannot be underestimated.

Contemporary Tibetan teachers have expressed concerns and doubts over
the future of the tulku tradition. Given the kinds of obsta苞les and
pressures mentioned above, it is indeed hard to see how the
tradition could survive in anything like its classical form. At times,
the Dalai Lama has raised questions as to whether there will be future
in苞arnations of his line. When Trungpa Rinpoche was asked in 1974 if
there would be any more Trungpa Tulkus, he replied, "I don't think
so." Other lamas have expressed the same view. Yet a new incarnation
of the Trungpa tulku has been recognized, and it is hard to imagine
that after the present Dalai Lama there will be no more. Still, even
if another incarnation may be expected, the Dalai Lama has become such
a prominent political figure in the world arena, it is hard to see how
any future Dalai Lama could be as trained and prepared as the previous
incarnations have been.

(both articles from "Secret Of The Vajra World", a book that examines
all the usual Western misconceptions of the Vajrayana, and what the
actual practices are.)

Strike One.

5.b. KARMA KAGYU - SCHISM

There is a separation in the Kagyu leadership...so that makes it
"disgraced"?

The Kagyu has always had many diversified lineages, each with their
own style...But two Karmapas is a real disgrace and shows that the
Kagyu is a False Teaching, right?

Wow, good thing that never happened in Christianity because then
Christianity would be "disgraced"...Like if there was an Eastern and
Western Orthodox schism, with individual countries like England also
schisming, and protestant groups rising up by the dozens to all
dispute with each other, wage actual wars, kill each other, etc...

If you look at -all- religions you will find that they tend to
'schism' whenever there is political turmoil and freedom of
thought...sometimes the factions eventually make peace, and then
others schism off because of that...That's the nature of human beings
being religious...they question or they cling...or both, whatever, and
differences arise.

Otherwise we'd all still be worshiping Marduk and chanting about
Gilgamesh as we made traditional mud bricks.

Freedom of spiritual inquirey is a -good thing-, even if it produces
some chaos in the process.

Strike Two.

5.c. THE DEFINITION OF 'CULT'

Funny that you use the word "cult" here, because after i finished my
art major/philosophy minor degree i decided to go back to school for a
psych degree specializing in - guess what? - deprogramming
pop-psychology and cult addictions. i decided not to pursue that
career, but i did spend a year studying. Here's a list of some of the
factors that define a 'cult':

- - -
THE LEADER

The Leader is the only one who knows The Truth
so only The Leader knows The Whole Plan

OUTSIDERS

The Truth does not exist outside The Group/The Leader
outsiders are ignorant/misguided/evil and hence doomed/damned

THE GROUP

promotes an emotional and intellectual image:
appears exclusive and innovative, or welcoming and 'conservitive'
//etc
isolation from family and friends
control of news and information
control of time: the subject is made to spend all waking hours
thinking about The Group, The Leader, etc.
promotes a sense of individual powerlessness
promotes a sense of dependence on The Group
promotes hope of high status in The Group
promotes fear of low status in The Group
public praising and shaming: no privacy
promotes fear of leaving The Group / you will be damned if you leave
The Group

THE SUBJECT

free, skeptical thought is to be stopped
dogma is studied hour after hour, with psuedo-logics and jargon and no
questions
emotional re-enfocements such as rituals, singing, etc are used
'study and do what you are told, and eventually you might become
worthy to know The Truth'
affirming, after exhaustion etc., some vauge 'Peliminary Half
Truth' that says 'you are starting on The Way'
individuality is to be rejected as sinful
clothes are replaced by uniform
personal sense of time replaced by scheadual...sleep deprivation,
exhaustive labor, hunger/thirst, etc.
group-approved only writing, music, video, art, etc (control of
news and information = no individual discrimination)
independence is to be replaced with dependence/debilitation
personal experience is to be rejected as mere ignorant confusion

THE TRUTH

The Leader is the only one who knows The Truth
hence The Truth does not exist outside The Group
- - -

Neither the Nyingma nor the Kagyu fit those definitions, nor the
Kagyu-Nyingma Shambhala organization.

Rather their teachers and students encourage the development of
individual inquirery, self-confidence, individual/family/local/global
responsibility, and the recognition of other religions as valid ways
to a truth that is everyone's birth right, not some group's or leaders
power-chip, and so on. The Shambhala organization has formalized
checks and safegaurds in place against the abuse of 'authority' on any
level:

There's a pdf document that you can download from the main website
that starts:

- Shambhala Care and Conduct -
Conducting ourselves and caring for each other
Summary
The Shambhala mandala is committed to creating enlightened society.
This commitment involves devoting ourselves to personal
transformation, helping to develop a compassionate community of
practitioners, and contributing to the creation of enlightened society
in the world at large. This document is based on work done at
various levels of the mandala in the recent period and the practical
experience of working over the past year, with the procedure described
in it. The paper sets out four aspects of relating to the care of
people within our own community and dealing with disputes and
complaints:
1. Commitment to enlightened society
2. Conflicts within the community
3. Complaints against practitioners
4. Misconduct by Shambhala Office holders
...
....and then goes into detail about good conduct and how to report
abuses...

Strike Three.

----

Stay tuned....

norbu_tragri

unread,

Aug 23, 2004, 8:43:59 AM8/23/04

norbu_...@yahoo.com (norbu_tragri) wrote in message news:<f36c6d29.04081...@posting.google.com>...

ooops, typo:

"The vast majority of tulkus are 'functional' or 'direct'..."

should have read:

"The vast majority of tulkus are 'functional' or 'blessed'..."

'Direct' tulkus are quite rare.

Repost with correction:

Continuing the replies to the various issues raised, as promised (two
more posts after this to finish):

Point five:

5. "Do not believe any of the regulars on
alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan at present--2 of them are followers of
disgraced cults."

5.a. NYINGMA - TULKUS

This notion you have that Penor Rinpoche has somehow disgraced himself
and hence also 'The Nyigmapas' is flawed on at leas two points:

The vast majority of tulkus are 'functional' or 'blessed', and neither

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