A work from I Kwan Tao (Tian Tao)
Henry
considered as a Buddhist cult.
The Three Treasures of Tao
Chinese title: "San Bao Xin Fa (Hui Tian Zhi Dao)", literally means "The
Heart Essence of Three Treasures (The
Tao of Returning to Heaven)"
Lecturer: Wu Jing Miao
Translator: Mr. Jerome William McCarthy
Re-edited and correction: myself - those with blackets and comments
Chapter 1:
Ladies and Gentleme, initially I would like to extend my heartiest
congratulation to you for this is your auspicious day. Today you have
obtained the Tao, Tao is the most precious thing, it surpasses
everything. Every ancient saints (and) Buddhas obtained the Tao in the
(ancient) time, so they were able to surpass the limited of birth and
death and exist forever. Now what you obtain today is just the same a
what they did.
Formally, one who intended to gain the Tao had to abandon all the
worldly possessions and enjoyments. If he was a king he had to abandon
his kingdom, if he was a high official, he had to give up his high
position, left away his family and went to remote mountains to seek for
the Great Teacher who could point him a Way - to transmit him the Tao.
After he had experienced all sufferings and had changed his (worldly)
heart into a holy (Buddha) heart, as well as his perfect conduct,
besides he had done so much favour to people, then for his full
sincerity he finally moved the heart of God (?Heaven), thus Godsent
(saints and) Buddha(s) to point out the Way - to transmit the Tao to
him. Under such condition, the successor was hard to find. In that
period Tao was secretly transmitted from one patriarch to the next
patriarch.
But nowadays we are not necessary to go to the remote mountains, yet
we have not cultivated ourselves either, but what is the reason that we
can (gain the Tao so easily)? That's because the time is different,
today human beings (are) facing calamities, the doom day is coming, it
will destroy all human beings.
What causes the calamities? The reason is that in this modern age,
most of the people blindly worship science (and technology) instead of
spiritual harmony. They believe that the power of mankind can surpass
nature. Science is everything and almighty. It can solve all the human
problems. It seems that conscience and soul (which are religious terms,
are not mentioned). People do not recognize the Truth which is our
conscience, our holy heart, (our True Nature), (it) is indestructible
and exists forever, it is the master of our (life? originally translated
as "mortal bodies"). Nowadays, most of the (sentient beings) have lost
their conscience, (they do all evils), so it causes the great disaster
which hasn't been ever before and will not occur anymore afterward, we
call it the "last calamity", in this calamity, not only the (sentient
beings in the world) but also the immortal(s) of sky and the ghosts in
hell will be destroyed and vanished.
However, our Supreme Mother who bestow our soul (- God, Chinese:
Shang Di ), is merciful and compasionate, she cannot bear good and bad
being(s) destroyed together, so she (teach) the Tao and sends the Great
Teacher - Buddha Cikong and Bodhisattva Yueh-hui to come to the world to
rescue the three kinds of creatures - they are the immortal of sky, the
human beings in the world, and the ghost(s) in the hell return to Heaven
(altogther). Our God Father and God Mother (Chinese: Shi Zun, Shi Mu)
under the command of God transmit the True Tao to the three kinds of
creatures, their duties are to manage the work that called "The Last
Salvation", this salvation is without a word, this transmition is out of
preaching, it directly points out the original nature - conscience or
soul of mankind to make people realize their original nature then
(become Buddhas).
When the Last Calamity comes, nothing can save mankind, except the
Only Way - that is Tao which is taught by God. That's why the Tao is
widely propagated in nowadays to save the good men (and women? Chinese:
San Nan Xin Nuu), the ancient people cultivate themselves first and
gained Tao at the end, but now we gain the Tao first and secondly
cultivate ourselves. So after we have obtained Tao, we have to seriously
cultivate ourselves, then automatically we shall be (freed) from danger,
escape from the calamity, (ending of rebirth) and become saints or
Buddhas as well.
Although it is said that modern people are easier to gain Tao than
the ancient people, but it is also greatly (relied) on (fate? Chinese:
"Yuan Fen", translated as "conditions:). Today you obtain the Tao
because you have the affinity with (the) Buddha, (in your previous
lives) you had done virtues and so did our ancestors, or maybe you have
been cultivated in (the five major religions or any religion) in your
previous lives, (so therefore) these (actions) make you to have affinity
to obtain Tao, otherwise, you would never obtain it.
Chapter 2:
Ladies and Gentlemen, you have (gained) the Tao today, however, what
did you get actually? What is the Tao? Tao is the Mother of all things
(Chinese: Tian Di Ren Wang Wu Zhi Mu), Tao is (the original source of
the universe), the creator and master. Tao is God (Chinese: Shang Di),
(Tao is) the Supreme Devine of all. When the sky and earth haven't
existed, when there is nothing, the Tao has already existed. When (the
world has) anihilated and nothing (has left), the Tao does not
anihilate, it still exists, it creates the whole universe (again); when
the (whole universe) is formed, it then controls everything. Tao (is
very profound), Tao is shapeless and formless, invisible, cannot be
heard, smelled or touched, Tao is beyond the reach of thought of human,
Tao is unthinkable and (inexpressible), everything is done by (Tao),
(and yet) we cannot see its action, Tao works without ado (? Chinese: Wu
Wei Er Wei, work without a cause?) but nothing left undone. Man usually
calls it "nature". Everything cannot exist without the Tao, because
everything depends on Tao. Tao is God, our soul is bestowed by God, we
are (the children of God), God is our Heavenly Mother.
When we speak from the view point of the (origin) of the universe, we
call it "Tao", while it acts as the ruler of everything, we call it
"principle" (Chinese: Li), (and when) it (resides in) our bodies, makes
us alive and controlling the later, we call it "soul" or "conscience",
as she (gave) us our (origin nature? Chinese: Ben Xing, translated as
"soul"), we call it "Heavenly Mother" (Chinese: Lao Mu), (though) all
these (terms are different, their meanings are the same, they are
referring to the same thing.)
Now, you have obtained is Tao, Tao is everybody's True Self. Today
you have been pointed (out) by the Holy Teacher, your heart's door has
been opened too, now you (have recognized) the body (of yours) is not
(your true self), but it is the soul, (that one which is shapeless and
formless), (and yet) controlling your body is your (soul), your
trueself.
When everybody is alive, his soul is within his body, as soon as the
soul leaves his body, he (dies). The soul is (bestowed) from God, but
the physical body is from parents. Thus as the matter of fact we have
already had the Tao in ourselves, but (why do we still seeking it
again)? And was transmiited from the Holy Teacher? The reason is that we
don't (recognize) it, we think the physical bodies are our true selves
but not (realizing) they are just the (fake) ones, so we become selfish,
make so much wrong deeds, act of violence and sins (for the sake) of
enjoying our body, these make us fall (into rebirth) and suffer the
endless sufferings, we do (not) know that our true selves in our souls.
We are not limited limited in this physical body, we are boundless, we
are the Master of the Universe. (Our True Self is full of compassion and
loving kindness because our soul and Heavenly Mother are one, we are
emanation of the Heavenly Mother). But most of the people nowadays have
lost all these (characteristics), and don't know who actually he is.
What we have today is to regain our true self, our consciences.
Chapter 3:
The most precious thing that you get today, (is the most precious
item, it can be called as "Three Treasures"). They are:
A. Mysterious Door (Xuan Kwan)
B. Mnemonic (Heart Sutra)
C. Holy Hand Signal (He Tong)
A. The First Treasure: Mysterious Door or Xuan Kwan
In Chinese, Xuan Kwan literally means "Mysterious Door". The point
where the Holy Teacher puts his fingers on your face is called by this
name. It has many illustrations:
1. Original Nature:
This is my True Self, soul or conscience which I (have) possessed
originally, it is indestructable and exists forever.
2. The Door for being birth and death:
Mysterious Door is the Door where our soul (enters and departs) to
(and from) our physical body. Confucious said: "Who else can get out of
the house without crossing the door, but why do people not follow this
way?"
3. The way to Heaven:
Buddhist sutra said: "The Heaven is one hundred and eight thousand
miles far away." These words are metaphore, it means that it is not easy
to become a Buddha because a great teacher is hard to seek and the Tao
is yet be widely propagatted. However, now the Great Teacher has pointed
out the way for you, it means that you ascend to Heaven by one step.
4. Right Door:
Mysterious Door is the Right Door. It is just placed at the
(middle), not deviate to left or right, above or below.
This door was locked after the soul entered (into) the body. If we
(do not meet the Great Teacher to open this Mysterious Door), (when we
die, our soul will not leave from the right door of the physical body.)
It can only get out from the other side gates, they are eyes, ears,
mouth, nose, navel and vertex.
If soul leaves from:
Ears - It is to be reborn to the viviparous animals, such as
horses, pigs, cows, sheep etc.
Eyes - It is to be reborn as oviparous birds
Mouth - It is to be reborn as the animals in water like fishes,
lobsters etc.
Nose - It is to be reborn as flies, moth, bees etc.
Navel - It is to be reborn as plain people
Vertex - It is to be reborn as wealthy and powerful people
The ways that are mentioned above are the ways of reincarnation,
cannot free from the suffering of birth and death. The Holy Teacher
opens (up) our Right Door, that is the way to Heaven, we don't (require
to) get out by (any other gates), we shall not fall in the sufferings of
reincarnation. But we have to cultivate ourselves, if not, even the
Right Door is opened, our souls still can't return to Heaven, as we
(are) still full of sin, our souls are entangled by sin and can not
freely get out from the Right Door.
5. In the Bible (Matthew 13:11), John said to his disciples: "I baptize
you with water to show that you have repented, but the one who will come
after me will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and Fire.'
Please notice that you are transmitted Tao in the palace of God
because we have the commandment of God, the (Buddha) lamp (represents)
God - Heavenly Mother. In the transmital ritual, you have seen the Holy
Teacher using the incense to lead a fire line from the (Buddha) lamp and
point to your Mysterious Door, then by the finger of the Holy Teacher
(which) points on your Mysterious Door, God opens up your Heart's Door
and enlightens you with the Holy Spirit, you may see now the prophecy of
John has come true on you.
6. Budha Shakyamuni said: "I have the Great Dharma which is hidden in
eyes." This word is a hint for the place of Mysterious Door.
B. The Second Treasure: Mnemonic Or Heart Sutra {the Real Sutra that
without words}
1. Just now you were transmitted the Mnemonic do you still remember it?
Please mention once again. This treasure is used when it is very
dangerous, you mention the Menmonic in your mouth without a voice, and
hold on the Holy Hand Signal, immediately you will be saved by (saints
and) Buddha(s), and get out of the dangerous state. But notice that it
can only be used just as we are in the urgent state. If we cultivate
ourselves sincerely, certainly we will be under the (protection) of
(saints and) Buddha(s).
2. Heart Sutra, transmitted from heart through the mouth:
From the voice then reach to our true Heart that has no voice, from
the million (of) Sutras then come to the Real Sutra, that is Heart
Sutra, Heart Essence, True Void which is our true selves, original
nature.
3. The Real Teaching is from heart to heart:
It is transmitted from heart through the mouth. From the Heart of
the (Heavenly Mother) transmits to the Hearts of (sentient beings),
(that is the emanation of the Heart of the Heavenly Mother.)
C. The Third Treasure: Holy Hand Signal {or He Tong}
1. In Chinese, "He" literally means ("merge") and "Tong" literally
means ("same"). The Holy Hand Signal symbolizes the Golden Seal that
bestows by Heavenly Mother which means we have recognized our Heavenly
Mother. We hold the Holy Hand Signal means we want to be (merged) and
(sameness) with Heavenly Mother - to become a unity with Heavenly Mother
and never separate again.
2. Hold "He Tong", and be combined with God, holding "He Tong" and you
will be freed from Hell.
3. The left hand is good so it is put outside, the right hand is bad so
it is put inside. Both hands holding the word "Child", {the thumbs of
both hands holding in such a way to form a symbolize word of Chinese
"Hai", literally it means "Child"} one will be escaped from the
calamity.
4. Now, let's quote some words from Bible (Matthew 19:13-15) "Some
people brought children to Jesus for him to place his hands on and to
pray for them, but the disciples scolded the people, Jesus said, "Let
the children come to me and do not stop them, because the kingdom of
heaven belongs to them." He placed his hands on them and then went
away,"
From these event, we can understand that it is a prophecy for the
Holy Hand Signal. At that time Jesus put His hands on the child's head
and explained that this is the way to go to God's kingdom. Today we hold
the "Child" Signal and realize that we are the children of God, and we
are willing to go back to God's side.
Chapter 4
The Vow of indicator and sponsor
Before you are transmitted the Tao by the Holy Teacher, you have two
persons as your Indicator and Sponsor who have taken an oath for
indicating and sponsoring you to gain the Tao. Otherwise, the Holy
Teacher cannot transmit the Tao to you. These two persons guarantee that
you are kind people, and they swear that they lead you to the right way,
but not the heterodox, they do not cheat your money, if they do so,
they're willing to be punished by God. The money that you dedicate to
vihara is used for building vihara, printing books, whoever can't use it
for other private purposes.
Chapter 5
The Vow of applying Tao
Everybody before (one have) transmitted Tao, he has to make a vow,
that is he will adhere the Tao well and will not reveal the secret of
Heaven {Three Treasures} to {anyone}.
Chapter 6
Now you (have) obtained the Tao, the most precious thing. You have
been saved by someone, then you should save other people too. So please
do your utmost to indicate your family, relatives and friends to gain
the Tao, let them also be graced by God, this is a great merit of you if
you do so, because not only you save someone's soul from the suffering
of reincarnation but also you save his physical body from the calamity.
And yet it means not only you save one person, if he cultivates well, he
can also save his seven generations of ancestors and nine generations of
(descendents) by his merit, how great your merit is!
Find out more about Tian Tao:
URL: http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/geleg/cults.htm#T
--
Yours in Dharma,
Henry Chia
(Ngawang Geleg)
email: ge...@pacific.net.sg
URL: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/4886/index.htm
<-: Ngawang Geleg's Buddhist Home Page :->
URL: http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/geleg/cults.htm
<-: Buddhist Cults A - Z :->
URL: http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/geleg/index.htm
<-: My Music Page :->
Dayamati Dharmachari
> Hope that this can prove that the Tian Tao or I Kwan Tao should be
> considered as a Buddhist cult.
And what exactly would be gained by considering something as a
Buddhist cult? Please be specific.
--
Dayaamati
Henry
Dayamati Dharmachari wrote:
>
> Henry <ge...@pacific.net.sg> writes:
>
> > Hope that this can prove that the Tian Tao or I Kwan Tao should be
> > considered as a Buddhist cult.
>
> And what exactly would be gained by considering something as a
> Buddhist cult? Please be specific.
I am sure that you know the meaning of "Christian cult". A Buddhist cult
is something like a Christian cult. They twist and "rewrite" the words
of the Buddha, meaning of the Dharma.
kuankh
Henry wrote in message <38EF330E...@pacific.net.sg>...
>Hope that this can prove that the Tian Tao or I Kwan Tao should be
>considered as a Buddhist cult.
In the first place, Tian Tao is never Buddhist.
What is misleading is Tian Tao use to quote too much of Buddhist teaching to
justify their believes.
The fact that they call their place of gathering as "Fou Tang" ie Buddha
Hall is misleading enough to cause confusion.
Martin Ellison
As they explained themselves to me, they surpassed all the
existing religions, including Daoism, Buddhism and Christianity.
A friend argued to me that they were an obscure but legitimate
branch of esoteric Daoism. Although they used some Buddhist
elements (eg the Platform Sutra), I believe that this was simply
to give themselves a spurious legitimacy, and does not represent
any genuine Buddhist element. From my observation of them, if
anyone can be called a 'cult', they can. (If Prof. Hayes can come
up with a better word, let him tell us). At any rate, most of
them appeared to bee sheep.
Martin
Henry <ge...@pacific.net.sg> wrote in message
news:38F01A89...@pacific.net.sg...
>
>
> Dayamati Dharmachari wrote:
> >
> > Henry <ge...@pacific.net.sg> writes:
> >
> > > Hope that this can prove that the Tian Tao or I Kwan Tao
should be
> > > considered as a Buddhist cult.
> >
Henry
Martin Ellison wrote:
>
> Henry,
>
> As they explained themselves to me, they surpassed all the
> existing religions, including Daoism, Buddhism and Christianity.
> A friend argued to me that they were an obscure but legitimate
> branch of esoteric Daoism. Although they used some Buddhist
> elements (eg the Platform Sutra), I believe that this was simply
> to give themselves a spurious legitimacy, and does not represent
> any genuine Buddhist element. From my observation of them, if
> anyone can be called a 'cult', they can. (If Prof. Hayes can come
> up with a better word, let him tell us). At any rate, most of
> them appeared to bee sheep.
Hi Martin,
I have read about two sources of origin for Tian Tao. One from their own
records while the other is an explanation of Buddhist observers. Their
records mentioned that they have roots in both Buddhist and Taoist
masters. From the Buddhist sides, they believed that earlier Chan (Zen)
masters hold their lineage, only later, Taoist masters who are believed
to be reincarnation of Buddhist and Taoist deities, hold the lineage and
passed down until the present masters. From the Buddhist observers, they
believe that their origin is influence by Tai Ping Tian Guo, founded by
Hong Xiu Quan, which later broke out as Bai Lian Jiao. So therefore, I
am also wondering if they were an trully obscure and legitimate branch
of Taoism or just another unorthodox Taoist school
Henry
kuankh wrote:
>
> In the first place, Tian Tao is never Buddhist.
Oh yes, the followers do not call themselves "Fo You" (Dharma friends)
but "Dao Ching" (Taoist closest friends?).
> What is misleading is Tian Tao use to quote too much of Buddhist teaching to
> justify their believes.
Yes, Buddhist terminlogy and icons (Buddhist arts) are being quoted
excessively to support and justify their believes. So on the other hand,
Buddhist influence is strong, agreed?
> The fact that they call their place of gathering as "Fou Tang" ie Buddha
> Hall is misleading enough to cause confusion.
Aha. You are right. Their holy houses are oftenly referred as "Fo Tang"
which is a Buddhist term for a small Buddhist organization for holding
services and giving teachings for the Buddhist followers. Again,
Buddhist influence is strong, agreed?
tri...@my-deja.com
> > > considered as a Buddhist cult.
> >
> > Buddhist cult? Please be specific.
>
> I am sure that you know the meaning of "Christian cult".
> A Buddhist cult is something like a Christian cult. They
> twist and "rewrite" the words
And Buddhist Fundamentalists are like Christian
Fundamentalists. They view all interpretations
of the Dharma/Bible as heretical except their own.
It is no surprise that One True Path Fundamentalists
can be found in every religion.
To maintain the "purity" of the One True Path,
these religionists have a habit of burning others
at the stake. In the modern context, branding
others as cultists seems more politically correct.
Until the mob turns on them. Is Henry aware that
some religionists consider Buddhists as cultists?
Thinking seems alien to the practice of One True Pathers.
seetoh
www.homex.s-one.net.sg/member/ask
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Harry Leong
and bodhisattvas), from the orthodox Buddhist point of view, is really
whacko!
Henry <ge...@pacific.net.sg> wrote in message
news:38F06E45...@pacific.net.sg...
>
>
> kuankh wrote:
> >
> > In the first place, Tian Tao is never Buddhist.
>
> Oh yes, the followers do not call themselves "Fo You" (Dharma friends)
> but "Dao Ching" (Taoist closest friends?).
>
> > What is misleading is Tian Tao use to quote too much of Buddhist
teaching to
> > justify their believes.
>
> Yes, Buddhist terminlogy and icons (Buddhist arts) are being quoted
> excessively to support and justify their believes. So on the other hand,
> Buddhist influence is strong, agreed?
>
> > The fact that they call their place of gathering as "Fou Tang" ie Buddha
> > Hall is misleading enough to cause confusion.
>
> Aha. You are right. Their holy houses are oftenly referred as "Fo Tang"
> which is a Buddhist term for a small Buddhist organization for holding
> services and giving teachings for the Buddhist followers. Again,
> Buddhist influence is strong, agreed?
>
Henry
Harry Leong wrote:
>
> Also, their doctrinal teachings (especially when they mention the buddhas
> and bodhisattvas), from the orthodox Buddhist point of view, is really
> whacko!
Oh yes. Since when we call Ji Gong as Huo Fo? If there is such real
figure, I think I would recognize him as an Arhat.
Henry
tri...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> To maintain the "purity" of the One True Path,
> these religionists have a habit of burning others
> at the stake. In the modern context, branding
> others as cultists seems more politically correct.
> Until the mob turns on them. Is Henry aware that
> some religionists consider Buddhists as cultists?
>
> Thinking seems alien to the practice of One True Pathers.
And do you know that I am a former member of Tian Tao? I know abt its
movement more than you.
Guoxiu Huang
>And do you know that I am a former member of Tian Tao?
>I know abt its movement more than you.
Eh? And when you decided to renounce further involvement with it, did you
have to endure the "customary" beating from the senior sect members? I hear
that this "de-association rite" continues on from the earliest customs of the
Bai Lian Jiao in Qing-China; where it was not much different from the
gangster-triads (except that it had a spiritual dimension to its nationalist
agenda.) Members who wish to leave had to undergo a severe thrashing as part
of a "silence pact". I'm surprised you lived (and dared) - to blow the
whistle on the Tian Tao. hmm...
G.......with a dash of 1890's triadster-blood in his veins
Klaus Schmetterling
"Henry" <ge...@pacific.net.sg>
wrote a prety scary story. I think there is a room in Buddhism for creating
a Bodhisattva/deity that will take upon him/her all the fears and sufferings
of those disloyal ones that sneak out of former commitments and "leak out
secrets" until the disloyal ones can come to terms with them by themselves.
Coming to think of it, the Buddha would be perfect for this role.
Good for you Henry.
Joy
> Guoxiu Huang wrote:
> >
> > Eh? And when you decided to renounce further involvement with it, did
you
> > have to endure the "customary" beating from the senior sect members? I
hear
> > that this "de-association rite" continues on from the earliest customs
of the
> > Bai Lian Jiao in Qing-China; where it was not much different from the
> > gangster-triads (except that it had a spiritual dimension to its
nationalist
> > agenda.) Members who wish to leave had to undergo a severe thrashing as
part
> > of a "silence pact". I'm surprised you lived (and dared) - to blow the
> > whistle on the Tian Tao. hmm...
>
> Actually, I was being conned to join them. You see, in 1994, my
> reservist PC, Lim, is one of the Tang Zhu, and he invited me to visit
> his temple in Hougang. Later, he told me that we should meet at the
> temple located in Bukit Merah. So we met. Without telling me what will
> happen next, he brought me to receive the transmission on so-called San
> Bao. During the transmission, we have to swear not to leak out the
> secrets, I had my fingers crossed. It is said that if we leak out them,
> we will be killed by thunders and lightning. So, I joined their
> organization unwillingly. After a few sessions on some seminars, I felt
> that something was wrong about their teachings and what the Chinese
> Mahayana teachers had said to me, seems to be true. So I quited and
> left. For past two yrs since I have left, Lim had kept on calling me to
> go back there but I always found excuses for not attending their
> activities.
>
> And when I joined Sakya Tenphel Ling, he gave up calling me. As I have
> already confessed to Lama Zopa Rinpoche (Director for FPMT/ABC) abt this
> issue, he quickly blessed me w/o any thoughts of hesitation and since
> then, I am no longer afraid of leaking out the secrets.
>
> Praise to the True San Bao - the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha!
Henry
--
Guoxiu Huang
>
>"Henry" <ge...@pacific.net.sg>
>
>wrote a prety scary story. I think there is a room in Buddhism for creating
>a Bodhisattva/deity that will take upon him/her all the fears and sufferings
>of those disloyal ones that sneak out of former commitments and "leak out
>secrets" until the disloyal ones can come to terms with them by themselves.
>Coming to think of it, the Buddha would be perfect for this role.
>
>Good for you Henry.
>
>Joy
Darn. You took the words right out of my mouth. :-)
Henry, you did fine!
PS: Non-Chinese folks might appreciate H's backbone a little more if the
olden Chinese value of "yi-qi" (integrity) is mentioned here. Drilled into
the impressionable mentalities of all Sino-youngsters, it extols the virtue
of unswerving, undying loyalty to a cause - however harmful or unprofitable
it may become. It has been one of the plangent factors for the unnecessary
sufferings of weaker-willed underlings in Chinese secret societies or
religious cults - who stay on only because they feel that it is "traitorous"
and "bu-zhong-yi" to leave.
PPS: Henry, you are now the first choice for the lead role in my upcoming
spiritual remake of the "The Insider - SGI Woes" ;-)
Henry
Klaus Schmetterling wrote:
>
> "Henry" <ge...@pacific.net.sg>
>
> wrote a prety scary story. I think there is a room in Buddhism for creating
> a Bodhisattva/deity that will take upon him/her all the fears and sufferings
> of those disloyal ones that sneak out of former commitments and "leak out
> secrets" until the disloyal ones can come to terms with them by themselves.
> Coming to think of it, the Buddha would be perfect for this role.
>
> Good for you Henry.
>
> Joy
I hope that those who want to join them, please think twice.
Henry
Guoxiu Huang wrote:
>
> PPS: Henry, you are now the first choice for the lead role in my upcoming
> spiritual remake of the "The Insider - SGI Woes" ;-)
heh... you can some info from my cult page too. If you need some more
footnotes, I can give you some useful links too.
Tang Huyen
Klaus Schmetterling wrote: <<Henry] wrote a prety scary story. I think there is
a room in Buddhism for creating a Bodhisattva/deity that will take upon him/her
all the fears and sufferings of those disloyal ones that sneak out of former
commitments and "leak out secrets" until the disloyal ones can come to terms
with them by themselves. Coming to think of it, the Buddha would be perfect for
this role.
Good for you Henry.
Joy>>
Didn't you, Joy, write:
<<Tb also uses the dissuasive argument of "samaya", the particular bond with
the teacher. This bond is eternal, i.e. till achieving full awakening and can
not be dissolved, under threat of the worse imaginable suffering. We can't
accuse TB of wishing bad luck to those who break the bond and abandon TB: it
simply describes what happens in case someone breaks the bond.
It is all a bit unfortunate: in order to be able to validly judge TB, one has to
engage in it. To engage in it properly, i.e. to have access to the more secret
and "efficient" teachings, one needs to have a special bond with the teacher. If
after having studied and practised it seriously, one judges it is not one's cup
of tea, it is too late. TB declares itself that it is better not to engage in
vajrayana, but that if one has to, one should go all the way. This darker side
unfortunately remains hidden behind the lovely smiles.>>
In "Re: tibetan vs original buddhism", 02/23/2000.
At any rate, Henry went from I Kwan Tao to Tibetan Buddhism. Quite an
improvement, eh?
Tang Huyen
Klaus Schmetterling
"Tang Huyen" <thu...@bu.edu> a écrit dans le message news:
38F3066D...@bu.edu...
> Didn't you, Joy, write:
> <<Tb also uses the dissuasive argument of "samaya", the particular bond
with
> the teacher. This bond is eternal, i.e. till achieving full awakening and
can
> not be dissolved, under threat of the worse imaginable suffering. We can't
> accuse TB of wishing bad luck to those who break the bond and abandon TB:
it
> simply describes what happens in case someone breaks the bond.
>
> It is all a bit unfortunate: in order to be able to validly judge TB, one
has to
> engage in it. To engage in it properly, i.e. to have access to the more
secret
> and "efficient" teachings, one needs to have a special bond with the
teacher. If
> after having studied and practised it seriously, one judges it is not
one's cup
> of tea, it is too late. TB declares itself that it is better not to engage
in
> vajrayana, but that if one has to, one should go all the way. This darker
side
> unfortunately remains hidden behind the lovely smiles.>>
>
> In "Re: tibetan vs original buddhism", 02/23/2000.
No, that was Klaus.
> At any rate, Henry went from I Kwan Tao to Tibetan Buddhism. Quite an
> improvement, eh?
I have many disagreements with TB. The most important one is that everything
is constructed around the relationship with a teacher (lama). The power of a
teacher is carefully underbuilt by the samaya I referred to above. For me
this system, even when "used" properly, is unacceptable, but some Tibetan
teachers manage to do their job without using or referring to it. These are
teachers I respect. From what I have heard about Henry's teacher, I got the
impression that he is such a teacher.
You wrote in your message about Asvaghosa (which btw I quite liked):
"He [Nagarjuna] belongs to a tradition (which survives in Tibetan Buddhism)
according to which intellectual cogitation alone is sufficient for
awakening, which I disagree with."
That is plainly incorrect. I can share many objections you make to TB, but
your knowledge of it seems to be very limited. It is much richer than you
seem to think. You will even find teachings and methods for developping
non-mentation. The problem as far as I can see it is the predominance of
vajrayana. It is considered to be the summum of Buddhism. All the other
Buddhist teachings are subordinate to it. Ultimately those are the teachings
you will want to have and the more common Buddhist teachings are used to
make you a worthy vessel for vajrayana teachings.
But as I said, you will also find teachers that will teach without any
vajrayana propaganda and indoctrination.
Joy
Henry
Tang Huyen wrote:
>
> At any rate, Henry went from I Kwan Tao to Tibetan Buddhism. Quite an
> improvement, eh?
Samaya, vows and precepts of Buddhism are totally different from I Kwan
Tao. If one breaks the samaya, he/she still confesses and renews the
samaya by receiving the Annutarayoga teachings again or participate the
Tsog offering. In I Kwan Tao, once you have broken, be prepared to be
thrashed by thunders and lightning.
trizin
<ge...@pacific.net.sg> wrote:
>Tang Huyen wrote:
>> At any rate, Henry went from I Kwan Tao to Tibetan
>> Buddhism. Quite an improvement, eh?
More deities to imagine, more prostrations to do,
more mantras to chant, more flesh to eat, more
sentient beings to kill, more precepts to break, etc.
One could make improvements to the road to hell.
>Samaya, vows and precepts of Buddhism are totally
>different from I Kwan Tao. If one breaks the samaya,
>he/she still confesses and renews the samaya by
>receiving the Annutarayoga teachings again or
>participate the Tsog offering.
More superstitions and rituals at the altar of Buddha,
or the feet of the lama. How is confession and renewal
in the Sakya tradition different from that of other religions?
>In I Kwan Tao, once you have broken, be prepared to be
>thrashed by thunders and lightning.
You have found that to be untrue. Yet you willingly
embraced another set of superstitious beliefs.
seetoh
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Guoxiu Huang
>
>
>Guoxiu Huang wrote:
>>
>> PPS: Henry, you are now the first choice for the lead role in my upcoming
>> spiritual remake of the "The Insider - SGI Woes" ;-)
>
>heh... you can some info from my cult page too. If you need some more
>footnotes, I can give you some useful links too.
okie-doke. Send 'em over when you're ready.
btw, ever heard of the Moh-Hong Buddhist Shrine? If so, I'd like to hear what
you (as an outsider?) think of it. My maternal rels are its administrators,
and I was a member right until my early adult years, but left of my own
accord to take up with the Theravada practice (only to return to another
mahayana tradition again eight years later, duh!). Whatever your views be on
M.H.B.S., I'd insist now that you'd better not include it in your cult-page!
It isn't one.
Henry
Guoxiu Huang wrote:
>
> okie-doke. Send 'em over when you're ready.
Try this newgroup:
alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Once awhile, somebody will post materials to fight against Nichiren
Buddhists and Soka members.
Try this websites:
http://www.csj.org/csj.org/infoserv_links/group_categories/grptype_eastern/lk_buddhist_nsa.htm
> btw, ever heard of the Moh-Hong Buddhist Shrine? If so, I'd like to hear what
> you (as an outsider?) think of it. My maternal rels are its administrators,
> and I was a member right until my early adult years, but left of my own
> accord to take up with the Theravada practice (only to return to another
> mahayana tradition again eight years later, duh!). Whatever your views be on
> M.H.B.S., I'd insist now that you'd better not include it in your cult-page!
> It isn't one.
What is it? Care to tell us more abt it?
Guoxiu Huang
>Try this newgroup:
>
>alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
>
>Once awhile, somebody will post materials to fight against Nichiren
>Buddhists and Soka members.
Hey! Don't link the Nichies with the Sokkies. One's legit and the other's
shite. As for those anti-Nichiren posts there, I'd note that some of them are
quite warped/biased in their perspectives, and seem to have been written only
to provoke and irritate the sincere Nichirenians. Poor arbn has deteriorated;
with the increased numbers of clueless trolls there... These days, Mark just
spends his time there swatting at "flies". :-)
>Try this websites:
>
>http://www.csj.org/csj.org/infoserv_links/group_categories/grptype_eastern/lk_buddhist_nsa.htm
thanx
>> btw, ever heard of the Moh-Hong Buddhist Shrine?
>
>What is it? Care to tell us more abt it?
In a nutshell, a mahayana association which gets together every sunday to
chant mantras from the traditional scriptures, and raise funds for charity.
It has branched out into T'ung Shan, China - where the construction of its
temple there will be completed in 2002. The Falun Gong can certainly learn a
thing or two about skilful proselytization from the MHBS.
Guo
--
"Anger leads to fear... Fear leads to hate...
And hate leads to suff-fer-ring..." (Master Yoda)
Tang Huyen
trizin (Seetoh) wrote:
Tang: <<At any rate, Henry went from I Kwan Tao to Tibetan Buddhism. Quite an
improvement, eh?>>
Seetoph: <<More deities to imagine, more prostrations to do, more mantras to
chant, more flesh to eat, more sentient beings to kill, more precepts to break,
etc.
One could make improvements to the road to hell.>>
Henry: <<Samaya, vows and precepts of Buddhism are totally different from I Kwan
Tao. If one breaks the samaya, he/she still confesses and renews the samaya by
receiving the Annutarayoga teachings again or participate the Tsog offering.>>
Seetoh: <<More superstitions and rituals at the altar of Buddha, or the feet of
the lama. How is confession and renewal in the Sakya tradition different from
that of other religions?>>
Henry: <<In I Kwan Tao, once you have broken, be prepared to be thrashed by
thunders and lightning.>>
Seetoh: <<You have found that to be untrue. Yet you willingly embraced another
set of superstitious beliefs.>>
Seetoh, you deserve a stooge cheque. I couldn't have put it better.
As the Buddha says: "from darkness going into darkness," "going out of one
excrement-cesspool just to fall into another excrement-cesspool". MA, 140,
647a29 and SA, 272, 72a15-16, 1146, 304b-305b, Stache-Rosen, Sangiti-sutra, 120,
Turfanfunde, V, 106-107, Fumio Enomoto, A Comprehensive Study of the Chinese
Samyuktagama, Part 1: *Samgitanipata, Kyoto: Kacho Junior College, 1994, 32,
also SN, I, 93-96 (3, 3, 1).
Tang Huyen
Henry
trizin wrote:
>
> >Samaya, vows and precepts of Buddhism are totally
> >different from I Kwan Tao. If one breaks the samaya,
> >he/she still confesses and renews the samaya by
> >receiving the Annutarayoga teachings again or
> >participate the Tsog offering.
>
> More superstitions and rituals at the altar of Buddha,
> or the feet of the lama. How is confession and renewal
> in the Sakya tradition different from that of other religions?
You should study carefully about Tibetan Buddhism. These practices can
be found in other Tibetan traditions, not just Sakya tradition. You are
plainly doing personal attacking on Sakya tradition. For that reason, I
prefer not to reply you anymore for the sake of stopping you from
flaming the Triple Gem - a sinful action.
> >In I Kwan Tao, once you have broken, be prepared to be
> >thrashed by thunders and lightning.
>
> You have found that to be untrue. Yet you willingly
> embraced another set of superstitious beliefs.
You have no rights to comment anything becoz you have no idea on the
teachings of I Kwan Tao and Tibetan Buddhism.
Henry
Tang Huyen wrote:
>
> As the Buddha says: "from darkness going into darkness," "going out of one
> excrement-cesspool just to fall into another excrement-cesspool". MA, 140,
> 647a29 and SA, 272, 72a15-16, 1146, 304b-305b, Stache-Rosen, Sangiti-sutra, 120,
> Turfanfunde, V, 106-107, Fumio Enomoto, A Comprehensive Study of the Chinese
> Samyuktagama, Part 1: *Samgitanipata, Kyoto: Kacho Junior College, 1994, 32,
> also SN, I, 93-96 (3, 3, 1).
Nice quotation but abusing it by using in a wrong way.
Henry
Guoxiu Huang wrote:
>
> Hey! Don't link the Nichies with the Sokkies. One's legit and the other's
> shite. As for those anti-Nichiren posts there, I'd note that some of them are
> quite warped/biased in their perspectives, and seem to have been written only
> to provoke and irritate the sincere Nichirenians. Poor arbn has deteriorated;
> with the increased numbers of clueless trolls there... These days, Mark just
> spends his time there swatting at "flies". :-)
People attacked Nichirens becoz of Soka used to be part of the group.
When the monks and laypeople fought in the early 90's, NSS and Soka are
turned into two groups. In Singapore, the former NSS centres rename into
Singapore Soka Association. But I also heard that there are some NSS
centres which DO NOT rename into SSA becoz they don't want get involve
with SGI. Yet to find out where are those NSS centres located...
> In a nutshell, a mahayana association which gets together every sunday to
> chant mantras from the traditional scriptures, and raise funds for charity.
> It has branched out into T'ung Shan, China - where the construction of its
> temple there will be completed in 2002. The Falun Gong can certainly learn a
> thing or two about skilful proselytization from the MHBS.
Where is the place? Maybe I would like to pay a visit.
Klaus Schmetterling
"Henry" <ge...@pacific.net.sg> a écrit dans le message news:
38F532AD...@pacific.net.sg...
> > More superstitions and rituals at the altar of Buddha,
> > or the feet of the lama. How is confession and renewal
> > in the Sakya tradition different from that of other religions?
>
> You should study carefully about Tibetan Buddhism. These practices can
> be found in other Tibetan traditions, not just Sakya tradition. You are
> plainly doing personal attacking on Sakya tradition. For that reason, I
> prefer not to reply you anymore for the sake of stopping you from
> flaming the Triple Gem - a sinful action.
I remind you, Henry, that the Triple Gem in the Tibetan tradition is already
flamed, i.e. surrounded by flames.
I don't see how "attacking" a tradition or flaming the Triple Gem can be a
sinful action? Either the attacks are unfounded and those who wish to look
into it will see for themselves they are unfounded, or they are founded and
then it can benefit the tradition?
Joy
Tang Huyen
Klaus Schmetterling wrote:
Trizin/Seetoh: <<More superstitions and rituals at the altar of Buddha, or the
feet of the lama. How is confession and renewal in the Sakya tradition different
from that of other religions?>>
Henry: <<You should study carefully about Tibetan Buddhism. These practices can
be found in other Tibetan traditions, not just Sakya tradition. You are plainly
doing personal attacking on Sakya tradition. For that reason, I prefer not to
reply you anymore for the sake of stopping you from flaming the Triple Gem - a
sinful action.>>
Joy: <<I remind you, Henry, that the Triple Gem in the Tibetan tradition is
already flamed, i.e. surrounded by flames.
I don't see how "attacking" a tradition or flaming the Triple Gem can be a
sinful action? Either the attacks are unfounded and those who wish to look into
it will see for themselves they are unfounded, or they are founded and then it
can benefit the tradition?>>
Agreed, Joy. (Our samaya is getting closer).
The entire community, the sangha included, ought to flame itself continually, do
self-reflection and self-criticism, to purify itself and maintain itself in
shape rather than falling into somnolence and forgetting its mission.
Tang Huyen
tri...@my-deja.com
ge...@pacific.net.sg wrote:
> trizin wrote:
> >
> > >Samaya, vows and precepts of Buddhism are totally
> > >different from I Kwan Tao. If one breaks the samaya,
> > >he/she still confesses and renews the samaya by
> > >receiving the Annutarayoga teachings again or
> > >participate the Tsog offering.
> >
> > or the feet of the lama. How is confession and renewal
> > in the Sakya tradition different from that of other religions?
>
> These practices can be found in other Tibetan traditions,
> not just Sakya tradition. You are plainly doing personal
> attacking on Sakya tradition. For that reason, I
> prefer not to reply you anymore for the sake of stopping you
> from flaming the Triple Gem - a sinful action.
I guess it is far more sinful to engage in superstitious
and deadly rituals, namely those that you described within
your tradition. Do you really believe that you must eat meat
to gain enlightenment?
Anyway, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak,
and I doubt you can keep to your word that you will
no longer reply to my posts. I don't think you can
control yourself.
Just wait and see.
> > >In I Kwan Tao, once you have broken, be prepared to be
> > >thrashed by thunders and lightning.
> >
> > You have found that to be untrue. Yet you willingly
> > embraced another set of superstitious beliefs.
>
> You have no rights to comment anything becoz you have no
> idea on the teachings of I Kwan Tao and Tibetan Buddhism.
I was not aware that you determine what rights I have,
or do not have. You must be seriously deluded.
seetoh
http://homex.s-one.net.sg/member/ask
Guoxiu Huang
>People attacked Nichirens becoz of Soka used to be part of the group.
>When the monks and laypeople fought in the early 90's, NSS and Soka are
>turned into two groups. In Singapore, the former NSS centres rename into
>Singapore Soka Association. But I also heard that there are some NSS
>centres which DO NOT rename into SSA becoz they don't want get involve
>with SGI.
Mmm... interesting info thanks. I'm not tuned into the S'pore Nichie/Sokkie
scene so that comes as news for me indeed.* Nevertheless, your argument fits
the Singapore NSS context better than it does the NSS/SGI sects argued about
in arbn (which are the Japanese/American branches). In arbn, a clear
demarcation line has long been drawn between the NSS and SGI agendas. Ask
Mark. :-)
*What I do know about our NSS sects here is that they have many pretty
Japanese girls amongst their followers, and that attracts many luv-hungry
Singaporean bachelors to the gatherings...
>Yet to find out where are those NSS centres located...
Why? To do more "spying" on them? Leave them be. The NSS is quite innocuous
in our society. The worst thing they can do to us is to get us addicted to
wasabe'd pufferfish.
>> The Falun Gong can certainly learn a
>> thing or two about skilful proselytization from the MHBS.
>
>Where is the place? Maybe I would like to pay a visit.
Sorry, you won't be able to get into the MHBS headquarters unless one of its
existant members puts you up as a new member. That's the policy for the
Singapore branch anyway. I'm guessing that they wish to keep the group small
and cosy. Anyway, the MHBS headquarters is housed in a private, landed
apartment in Bishan, but every year - in the fortnight leading up to Vesak -
its members will set up several tents in an open field in Bishan where they
will conduct prayer sessions and blessings. This is the only time when
non-members can get the chance to participate, so you can drop by at this
time to have a look (and mebbe get a Water-blessing :)
My youngest bro is an active member of the MHBS, and he could show you around
during Vesak if you want. I'll just direct you to his pic on his web-site, so
you can pick him out if you choose to drop by. And on his part, I could also
direct him to your pic on your web-site too. You still look like that, right?
Lovely long eyelashes, sexy waist-length hair, B-size cups and pert bum, yea?
<g>
Bye fer now,
Guo
--
"An ancient attainment by a new Buddha; a new attainment by an ancient
Buddha. What's the difference?"
Henry
Klaus Schmetterling wrote:
>
> I remind you, Henry, that the Triple Gem in the Tibetan tradition is already
> flamed, i.e. surrounded by flames.
Sorry, I don't understand. Fire?
> I don't see how "attacking" a tradition or flaming the Triple Gem can be a
> sinful action? Either the attacks are unfounded and those who wish to look
> into it will see for themselves they are unfounded, or they are founded and
> then it can benefit the tradition?
'Attacking' a tradition seems to be like criticizing that tradition
doesn't belong to Buddhism, eg. does not have any origin from the
Buddha's time. Respect all schools are practised by non-sectarian
movement.
Henry
tri...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> I guess it is far more sinful to engage in superstitious
> and deadly rituals, namely those that you described within
> your tradition. Do you really believe that you must eat meat
> to gain enlightenment?
Did you read my msg to dante?
Henry
Guoxiu Huang wrote:
>
> Mmm... interesting info thanks. I'm not tuned into the S'pore Nichie/Sokkie
> scene so that comes as news for me indeed.* Nevertheless, your argument fits
> the Singapore NSS context better than it does the NSS/SGI sects argued about
> in arbn (which are the Japanese/American branches). In arbn, a clear
> demarcation line has long been drawn between the NSS and SGI agendas. Ask
> Mark. :-)
Yap, I remembered that Mark did give me some footnotes. But there was a
yr ago I think.
> *What I do know about our NSS sects here is that they have many pretty
> Japanese girls amongst their followers, and that attracts many luv-hungry
> Singaporean bachelors to the gatherings...
Single men are lonely... and the Nihonji ladies become tools to attract
single men to be members. Clever move but not very orthodox.
> >Yet to find out where are those NSS centres located...
>
> Why? To do more "spying" on them? Leave them be. The NSS is quite innocuous
> in our society. The worst thing they can do to us is to get us addicted to
> wasabe'd pufferfish.
Just want to know how's thing going on after the split. That's all I
want to know.
> Sorry, you won't be able to get into the MHBS headquarters unless one of its
> existant members puts you up as a new member. That's the policy for the
> Singapore branch anyway. I'm guessing that they wish to keep the group small
> and cosy. Anyway, the MHBS headquarters is housed in a private, landed
> apartment in Bishan, but every year - in the fortnight leading up to Vesak -
> its members will set up several tents in an open field in Bishan where they
> will conduct prayer sessions and blessings. This is the only time when
> non-members can get the chance to participate, so you can drop by at this
> time to have a look (and mebbe get a Water-blessing :)
Wat? Like very secretive, aren't they? Anyway, please inform me any
OPEN-HOUSE programme if there's any. Thanks in advance.
> My youngest bro is an active member of the MHBS, and he could show you around
> during Vesak if you want. I'll just direct you to his pic on his web-site, so
> you can pick him out if you choose to drop by. And on his part, I could also
> direct him to your pic on your web-site too. You still look like that, right?
Vesak Day is my heavy schedule for I am taking care of some of the
programmes in our own monastery. Being a ritual musician, I will be
involved with Shakyamuni Buddha and 16 Arhats Puja, circumbulation and
empowerment programmes.
> Lovely long eyelashes, sexy waist-length hair, B-size cups and pert bum, yea?
> <g>
Sounds more like my ex gf. She is married and I behaved like not very
gentleman by not attending her wedding dinner even though I was being
invited.
Hint: Seetoh, if you want to know more about us, come down yourself. We
have a lady member who has a son also named Seetoh Wei Keong, wondering
if he is you. If he is you, join your mum's celebration in our
monastery. Answers are what you look for by seeking the Truth yourself,
not just a mere hearsay account.
Guoxiu Huang
>Guoxiu Huang wrote:
>>
>> *What I do know about our NSS sects here is that they have many pretty
>> Japanese girls amongst their followers, and that attracts many luv-hungry
>> Singaporean bachelors to the gatherings...
>
>Single men are lonely... and the Nihonji ladies become tools to attract
>single men to be members. Clever move but not very orthodox.
The competition amongst the Buddhist sects for members justifies the
implementation of new fangled methods of recruitment...
My heart goes out to the Theravada division. Glamorous recruitment tactics
has never been its forte. :-]
>> Sorry, you won't be able to get into the MHBS headquarters unless one of its
>> existant members puts you up as a new member. (...)
>
>Wat? Like very secretive, aren't they?
My brother tells me that that's becoz they wish to keep their Singapore
membership small and simple; while they continue with their expansion in
Tongshan, China.
I don't know exactly why the MHBS wishes to keep its Singapore base small,
but I'll guess that the desire - to keep the politickings and jostlings for
positions (which arise when a gathering of Singapore buddhists get too big) -
is a factor. Have you not noticed the sad trend of rivalry amongst
Singaporean lay buddhists for positions of influence on temple
committee-boards? Like an eerie reflection of Singapore's actual political
climate, it seems Singaporeans cannot resist the temptation to fight bitterly
for positions of power - be it a country-club, RC or buddhist committee?
>Anyway, please inform me any
>OPEN-HOUSE programme if there's any. Thanks in advance.
The MHBS's Vesak celebration is their only open-house programme...
>Vesak Day is my heavy schedule for I am taking care of some of the
>programmes in our own monastery. Being a ritual musician, I will be
>involved with Shakyamuni Buddha and 16 Arhats Puja, circumbulation and
>empowerment programmes.
Sometimes I wonder if you aren't already a monk who only happens to live as a
"householder"! I will try to sneak into your temple again during Vesak - for
my upteenth peek at ya. <g>
>Sounds more like my ex gf. She is married and I behaved like not very
>gentleman by not attending her wedding dinner even though I was being
>invited.
How was that ungentlemanly???
I would never want to attend (or have attended) an ex's wedding. Pish! And,
believe me, I have many axes, um... ex'es.
>Hint: Seetoh, if you want to know more about us, come down yourself. We
>have a lady member who has a son also named Seetoh Wei Keong, wondering
>if he is you. If he is you, join your mum's celebration in our
>monastery. Answers are what you look for by seeking the Truth yourself,
>not just a mere hearsay account.
Yo! And Truth can't be found in abject vegetarianism too.
G.
Henry
Gomehnasai....
Guoxiu Huang wrote:
>
> >Single men are lonely... and the Nihonji ladies become tools to attract
> >single men to be members. Clever move but not very orthodox.
>
> The competition amongst the Buddhist sects for members justifies the
> implementation of new fangled methods of recruitment...
> My heart goes out to the Theravada division. Glamorous recruitment tactics
> has never been its forte. :-]
What's good for competition amongst the Buddhist schools for members? It
will create more sectarian hate with one another. :(
Yi Qie Sui Yuan Ba...
> >Wat? Like very secretive, aren't they?
>
> My brother tells me that that's becoz they wish to keep their Singapore
> membership small and simple; while they continue with their expansion in
> Tongshan, China.
It seems that even For You Information magazine published by Guan Chao
Shi, also doesn't feature your centre in the montly activities programme
page.
> I don't know exactly why the MHBS wishes to keep its Singapore base small,
> but I'll guess that the desire - to keep the politickings and jostlings for
> positions (which arise when a gathering of Singapore buddhists get too big) -
> is a factor. Have you not noticed the sad trend of rivalry amongst
> Singaporean lay buddhists for positions of influence on temple
> committee-boards? Like an eerie reflection of Singapore's actual political
> climate, it seems Singaporeans cannot resist the temptation to fight bitterly
> for positions of power - be it a country-club, RC or buddhist committee?
Yes, my monastery is controlled by the committee board, the abbot
couldn't make any decision on the growth of the monastery but only gives
opinions and suggestions to committee board so that they would make
decision.
> The MHBS's Vesak celebration is their only open-house programme...
:( Looks like there isn't a way for me to visit your centre.
> Sometimes I wonder if you aren't already a monk who only happens to live as a
> "householder"! I will try to sneak into your temple again during Vesak - for
> my upteenth peek at ya. <g>
heh heh heh.. If I am a monk, I would be a wolf dressed under a monk's
robe - w/o pure concept on true renunciation. :) Women and songs -
something which I cannot resist.
In the meantime, I will not be a monk and I do not have any intention to
be one.
> How was that ungentlemanly???
> I would never want to attend (or have attended) an ex's wedding. Pish! And,
> believe me, I have many axes, um... ex'es.
Wah! Going to use your axes to hack your rival down??!?!?!
Dunno. Feel very bad and childish for not attending. Should be more open
minded, shouldn't I?
> Yo! And Truth can't be found in abject vegetarianism too.
I remembered one Chinese monk made a remark: "Can a cow gain
enlightenment just merely eating grass alone and w/o cultivation?".
tri...@my-deja.com
ge...@pacific.net.sg wrote:
>
>
> tri...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > I guess it is far more sinful to engage in superstitious
> > and deadly rituals, namely those that you described within
> > your tradition. Do you really believe that you must eat meat
> > to gain enlightenment?
>
> Did you read my msg to dante?
What message?
seetoh
tri...@my-deja.com
ge...@pacific.net.sg wrote:
> Guoxiu Huang wrote:
> Yes, my monastery is controlled by the committee board,
> the abbot couldn't make any decision on the growth of
> the monastery but only gives opinions and suggestions
> to committee board so that they would make decision.
The abbot is not the legal head, so the committee
has to make decisions that may have a legal impact.
This is unlike the Thai temples where the abbot
is the legal head.
<snipped>
> > Yo! And Truth can't be found in abject vegetarianism too.
>
> I remembered one Chinese monk made a remark: "Can a cow gain
> enlightenment just merely eating grass alone and w/o cultivation?".
As we are not cows, that issue is not particularly
important. For humans, the killing of animals for
their flesh is a violation of the Buddhist precepts.
Yet these flesh-eaters continue to insult the Buddha.
seetoh
Neither a murderer nor a murderee be.
tri...@my-deja.com
ge...@pacific.net.sg wrote:
> Klaus Schmetterling wrote:
> > I remind you, Henry, that the Triple Gem in the
> > Tibetan tradition is already flamed, i.e. surrounded by flames.
>
> Sorry, I don't understand. Fire?
Samsara. Where else is Nirvana found?
> > I don't see how "attacking" a tradition or flaming the
> > Triple Gem can be a sinful action? Either the attacks
> > are unfounded and those who wish to look into it will
> > see for themselves they are unfounded, or they are
> > founded and then it can benefit the tradition?
>
> 'Attacking' a tradition seems to be like criticizing that
> tradition doesn't belong to Buddhism, eg. does not have
> any origin from the Buddha's time.
You are more concerned about chronology than truth,
while you seem to know neither. If the truth depends
on tradition, then you're violating the spirit of
the Buddha's teachings.
> Respect all schools are practised by non-sectarian
> movement.
All traditions are sectarian, the Sakya tradition
included. Does a bear have to take a bite out of you
before you recognise it as a bear?
Henry
tri...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > Did you read my msg to dante?
>
> What message?
Use your deja.com search engine to search our msg.
Henry
tri...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> Samsara. Where else is Nirvana found?
Without the term 'Samsara', the term 'Nirvana' doesn't exist. Without
the term 'sufferings', the term 'relief' doesn't exist.
> You are more concerned about chronology than truth,
> while you seem to know neither. If the truth depends
> on tradition, then you're violating the spirit of
> the Buddha's teachings.
You are protecting the teachings of your beloved teacher, Suma Ching
Hai, not those of Buddha Sakyamuni. *Sigh*
Henry
tri...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> Yet these flesh-eaters continue to insult the Buddha.
Since when the Buddha said that you MUST be a vegetarian in order to
follow the Buddha's teachings? Have you forgotten the quotes on
Devdatta's debate with the Buddha?
GeoWCherry
>tri...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> Yet these flesh-eaters continue to insult the Buddha.
>
>Since when the Buddha said that you MUST be a vegetarian in order to
>follow the Buddha's teachings? Have you forgotten the quotes on
>Devdatta's debate with the Buddha?
Henry, why not give animals the benefit of the doubt? Anyway, there is
absolutely no necessity in nutrition, health, or cuisine for human beings to
eat animals. These creatures are sentient and they do suffer in their
transportation to the slauglter house and their slaughter. I am happier and
healthier for having become a vegetarian. I enjoy the feeling of not harming a
innocent sentient being. (Yes, I would swat a fly or a mosquito. I would even
eat a clam, who has no central nervous system to individuate its demise.)
George W. Cherry
tri...@my-deja.com
ge...@pacific.net.sg wrote:
> tri...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Yet these flesh-eaters continue to insult the Buddha.
> Since when the Buddha said that you MUST be a vegetarian
> in order to follow the Buddha's teachings?
You may prefer to use blind faith & follow tradition,
but I prefer to think for myself.
> Have you forgotten the quotes on
> Devdatta's debate with the Buddha?
Since you never heard the debate yourself,
you are relying on blind faith
* that the debate actually occurred,
* that it was reported accurately word-for-word,
* that it was passed down accurately for centuries through word
of mouth,
* that nobody added or subtracted anything, or embellished it, and
* that it was translated perfectly from one language to the next.
Are you not making too many assumptions,
when you do not even know what language(s)
the Buddha used?
What language was the debate conducted in?
tri...@my-deja.com
ge...@pacific.net.sg wrote:
> tri...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Samsara. Where else is Nirvana found?
> Without the term 'Samsara', the term 'Nirvana' doesn't exist. Without
> the term 'sufferings', the term 'relief' doesn't exist.
You are quoting out of context,
and hence your reply is meaningless.
> > You are more concerned about chronology than truth,
> > while you seem to know neither. If the truth depends
> > on tradition, then you're violating the spirit of
> > the Buddha's teachings.
>
> You are protecting the teachings of your beloved teacher, Suma Ching
> Hai, not those of Buddha Sakyamuni. *Sigh*
It is more in your style to call me an evil cultist,
so sighing away doesn't suit you at all.
Have you considered that thinking is a worthwhile pursuit?
seetoh
Ananda
<tri...@my-deja.com> wrote
>
> Have you considered that thinking is a worthwhile pursuit?
>
> seetoh
Welcome to the real deluded world Seetoh..
Theravad
>> tri...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> > Samsara. Where else is Nirvana found?
>> Without the term 'Samsara', the term 'Nirvana' doesn't exist. Without
>> the term 'sufferings', the term 'relief' doesn't exist.
>
>>You are quoting out of context,
and hence your reply is meaningless.
Can you explain further, Seetoh? Trizin's reply makes perfect sense to me.
roccocoricco
> Since when the Buddha said that you MUST be a vegetarian in order to
> follow the Buddha's teachings? Have you forgotten the quotes on
> Devdatta's debate with the Buddha?
I agree with you, Henry. According to the Theravadin teachings at least,
the Buddha permitted bhikkhus to consume meat with the proviso that it
must not come from animals specifically slaughtered for that purpose.
I note that vegetarianism is a popular practice amongst buddhists
nowadays, but it's not quite right for militant veggies to make the
sweeping claim that a buddhist must also be a vegetarian too.
ricco
Henry
tri...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > Without the term 'Samsara', the term 'Nirvana' doesn't exist. Without
> > the term 'sufferings', the term 'relief' doesn't exist.
>
> You are quoting out of context,
> and hence your reply is meaningless.
You do not see Interdependent Origination.
> It is more in your style to call me an evil cultist,
> so sighing away doesn't suit you at all.
>
> Have you considered that thinking is a worthwhile pursuit?
Sigh. I will not acknowledge Suma Ching Hai. The Singapore Buddhist
Federation also doesn't acknowledge her movement being a Buddhist
school.
Henry
tri...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> In article <3903171D...@pacific.net.sg>,
> ge...@pacific.net.sg wrote:
> > tri...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > Yet these flesh-eaters continue to insult the Buddha.
> > Since when the Buddha said that you MUST be a vegetarian
> > in order to follow the Buddha's teachings?
>
> You may prefer to use blind faith & follow tradition,
> but I prefer to think for myself.
Then, what make you so sure that Suma Ching Hai's teachings could
liberate you from Samsara?
Henry
roccocoricco wrote:
>
> I agree with you, Henry. According to the Theravadin teachings at least,
> the Buddha permitted bhikkhus to consume meat with the proviso that it
> must not come from animals specifically slaughtered for that purpose.
> I note that vegetarianism is a popular practice amongst buddhists
> nowadays, but it's not quite right for militant veggies to make the
> sweeping claim that a buddhist must also be a vegetarian too.
>
> ricco
Yes, this is stated in the debates between the Buddha Himself and
Devadatta, His evil cousin.
If he claims that being a vegetarian is not to harm sentient beings, I
think that he should eat more then. He forgets that slandering and
flaming others are as powerful as knife at times.
Henry
Theravad wrote:
>
> >> tri...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >> > Samsara. Where else is Nirvana found?
> >> Without the term 'Samsara', the term 'Nirvana' doesn't exist. Without
> >> the term 'sufferings', the term 'relief' doesn't exist.
> >
>
> >>You are quoting out of context,
> and hence your reply is meaningless.
>
> Can you explain further, Seetoh? Trizin's reply makes perfect sense to me.
Trizin is Seetoh. :)
That reply is written by me, not Seetoh aka Trizin.
GeoWCherry
<< I agree with you, Henry. According to the Theravadin teachings at least,
the Buddha permitted bhikkhus to consume meat with the proviso that it
must not come from animals specifically slaughtered for that purpose.
I note that vegetarianism is a popular practice amongst buddhists
nowadays, but it's not quite right for militant veggies to make the
sweeping claim that a buddhist must also be a vegetarian too. >>
As a practical matter, where would you get meat that does not "come from
animals specifically slaughtered for that purpose".? I'n a "veggie", but I
think I'm compassionate not militant. I simply know from videos taken of the
meat industry that it involves a great deal of suffering of the animals
involved and a debasement of the human beings involved.
george w. cherry
GeoWCherry
<< He forgets that slandering and flaming others are as powerful as knife at
times. >>
I agree that slandering an flaming others is harmful AND counterproductive. But
a barbed word is not as painful or lethal as the knife that slits the throat of
a veal calf. As a practical matter, vegetarian cuisine can be exquisite. My
wife and I ate dinner with friends at a Thai restaurant in Ogunquit, Maine.
None of the dishes contained any meat, and the appreciative "ohs" and "ahs"
were wonderful to hear. Soy products can be prepared in so many wonderful ways.
And the isoflavones of soy beans are incredibly healthful and important. Please
give these foods a chance. They are good for you, the planet, and the spared
animal suffering. We don't have to cycle wonderful plant foods through animals
to enjoy their flavor and benefits.
humbly yours,
george w. cherry
Corneille
instance, are not permitted to be Buddhists? Or that Buddhism would be
impossible in primitive great northern countries, like, Siberia or Canada
in the XVII° century?
roccocoricco a écrit:
> ge...@pacific.net.sg wrote:
>
> > Since when the Buddha said that you MUST be a vegetarian in order to
> > follow the Buddha's teachings? Have you forgotten the quotes on
> > Devdatta's debate with the Buddha?
>
> I agree with you, Henry. According to the Theravadin teachings at least,
> the Buddha permitted bhikkhus to consume meat with the proviso that it
> must not come from animals specifically slaughtered for that purpose.
> I note that vegetarianism is a popular practice amongst buddhists
> nowadays, but it's not quite right for militant veggies to make the
> sweeping claim that a buddhist must also be a vegetarian too.
>
roccocoricco
>roccocoricco wrote:
>
><< I agree with you, Henry. According to the Theravadin teachings at
least,
>the Buddha permitted bhikkhus to consume meat with the proviso that it
>must not come from animals specifically slaughtered for that purpose.
>I note that vegetarianism is a popular practice amongst buddhists
>nowadays, but it's not quite right for militant veggies to make the
>sweeping claim that a buddhist must also be a vegetarian too. >>
>
>As a practical matter, where would you get meat that does not "come
from
>animals specifically slaughtered for that purpose".?
You missed the point. By "for _that purpose_" is meant: lay-people
paying a butcher to kill a still-living animal because they wish to use
its flesh as their alms-offering. (For further corroboration, refer to
the dialogues on this issue between the Buddha and Devadatta.)
Of related interest would be the following extract from a book by a
respected bhikkhu who had spent some 30 years in the monastery. Here,
it appears that even the consideration for the Buddha's instructions on
meat-eating was overridden by the consideration for the sincerity of
the lay-followers' dana:
"A bhikkhu's pindapata in town takes him past the houses of both the
rich and poor and he collects from all whatever they wish to offer,
neither greedy for choice morsels nor scorning poor offerings. Also, he
must accept whatever is offered, even if he is a vegetarian and people
offer meat or fish, he accepts their offering with gratitude and loving
kindness. He can always make merit himself by giving away what he does
not want. That leads on to a small diversion, for people always assume
that Buddhists are vegetarians when this is not usually the case. A few
are through their own choice but this is not because they are upholding
some tenet of Buddhism. The Buddha did not want his religion to become
a "food religion" - as many religions tend to become in course of time.
He gave importance to what came out of the mouth - the words spoken,
but not to what was put into it. As he was a bhikkhu he ate whatever
people gave and taught other bhikkhus to do the same. This is good for
contentment."
(Bhikkhu Khantipalo, "Banner of the Arahants")
>I'n a "veggie", but I
>think I'm compassionate not militant. I simply know from videos taken
of the
>meat industry that it involves a great deal of suffering of the animals
>involved and a debasement of the human beings involved.
Good for you then. Though I strongly doubt this mode of behaviour
really does anything more to alleviate the collective suffering of the
animal kingdom than the dietary preferences of an omnivorous Buddhist.
Many living creatures are also eliminated in the process of cultivating
and harvesting vegetables and grains. The seemingly innocent and
karmically-"safe" greengrub you stuff into your mouth also has the
blood of animals on them.
A Buddhist master once held out a sheet of paper and said: "if you
understand dependent origination, you will not perceive this piece of
paper only as a piece of paper; you will also perceive the earlier
processes which have lead to this piece of paper becoming what it is
now. The sunlight and rain which nourished the forest-trees; the toils
of the lumberjacks; the manufacturing process at the paper-mill..." Or
in Avamtamsaka-speak, upon holding up/examining one dharma - all other
dharmas which have been, are , or will be, are also held up at that
moment.
So likewise, if you would look a little closely at the potatoes,
lettuce, citrus or tomatoes in your fridge, you will also "see" the
worms which were chopped in half when the fields were ploughed; the
murdered rats, crows and hares; or the swarms of insects poisoned by
the insecticides sprayed on crops. Once the perception of an object as
an independent entity separate from other phenomena is dropped, a
person will come to realize the inevitable interconnectedness of all
things. And that makes these perennial debates over the merits of
vegetarianism vs the "demerits" of non-vegetarianism a vain exercise in
verbal haggling. Some smug vegetarian buddhists might fancy that they
have done their bit to eradicate suffering by choosing their particular
diet, but really - most of the time this merely sweeps the dust under
the carpet. That juicy tomato is not as wholesome and bloodless as it
seems, for it also incoporates the sufferings of other sentients in its
existence. It just happens to be invisible.
The proponents of either diet might be better off conceding that: for a
single human to continue his or her existence in this world, the lives
of many living things are sacrificed to achieve that end. That's
samsaric duhkka for you.
Henrik Ræder Clausen
> What's more, such an extremist attitude would mean that Eskimos, for
> instance, are not permitted to be Buddhists? Or that Buddhism would be
> impossible in primitive great northern countries, like, Siberia or Canada
> in the XVII° century?
Perfectly possible. Just don't do Theravada, try Mahayana or (even
better) Vajrayana.
[Snip: Vegetarian Buddhists]
Good luck 2 U!
-Henrik
trizin
<ge...@pacific.net.sg> wrote:
>
>
>tri...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> > Without the term 'Samsara', the term 'Nirvana' doesn't
exist. Without
>> > the term 'sufferings', the term 'relief' doesn't exist.
>>
>> You are quoting out of context,
>> and hence your reply is meaningless.
>
What is the difference between Dependent Origination
and Interdependent Origination?
>> It is more in your style to call me an evil cultist,
>> so sighing away doesn't suit you at all.
>>
>> Have you considered that thinking is a worthwhile pursuit?
>
>Sigh. I will not acknowledge Suma Ching Hai. The
> Singapore Buddhist Federation also doesn't acknowledge
> her movement being a Buddhist school.
Perhaps because the movement does not claim to be a Buddhist
School.
Is it not strange that those who would claim to be
Buddhists prefer to eat the flesh of other sentient
beings?
Paying oral tribute to compassion while the hands
are stained with blood.
[Sarcasm On] These are indeed great Buddhists. [Sarcasm Off]
seetoh
Neither a Buddhist with bloody hands not a murderee be.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
trizin
<ge...@pacific.net.sg> wrote:
>tri...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> In article <3903171D...@pacific.net.sg>,
>> ge...@pacific.net.sg wrote:
>> > tri...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> > > Yet these flesh-eaters continue to insult the Buddha.
>> > in order to follow the Buddha's teachings?
>>
>> but I prefer to think for myself.
>
>Then, what make you so sure that Suma Ching Hai's
> teachings could liberate you from Samsara?
That's a nice little koan for you.
Solving that would bring you a step
closer to liberation from Samsara.
However, that could bring Samsara
two steps away from you. Aaarrgh...
However, if you don't look at it
that way, you could take it as an
exercise in lateral thinking.
It may even charge up your neurons.
seetoh
Neither a murderer nor a murderee be.
trizin
<ge...@pacific.net.sg> wrote:
>roccocoricco wrote:
>>
>> I agree with you, Henry. According to the Theravadin
teachings at least,
>> the Buddha permitted bhikkhus to consume meat with the
proviso that it
>> must not come from animals specifically slaughtered for that
purpose.
>> I note that vegetarianism is a popular practice amongst
buddhists
>> nowadays, but it's not quite right for militant veggies to
make the
>> sweeping claim that a buddhist must also be a vegetarian too.
Dear ricco, that depends on how you mean by a "buddhist".
If you define a buddhist as one who couldn't care less
about causing suffering to others in the pursuit of
his own happiness, then indeed, a buddhist need not
be vegetarian.
>Yes, this is stated in the debates between the Buddha Himself
and
>Devadatta, His evil cousin.
>
>If he claims that being a vegetarian is not to harm
> sentient beings, I think that he should eat more then.
> He forgets that slandering and flaming others are as
> powerful as knife at times.
Ahhh, a log in your own eye syndrome.
Don't you think that you are flaming and slandering
others by claiming them to be cults, Henry?
seetoh
The sand in your brother's eye.
trizin
<corneil...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>What's more, such an extremist attitude would mean that
Eskimos, for
>instance, are not permitted to be Buddhists? Or that Buddhism
would be
>impossible in primitive great northern countries, like, Siberia
or Canada
>in the XVII° century?
Dear Cornille, to me, vegetarianism is a guideline, and
not an absolute injunction. The purpose is to avoid
causing suffering to other sentient beings if we can help
it. Hence it is more applicable in countries where
vegetarian food is possible & abundant.
In extreme circumstances, such as surviving an aircrash
in remote Siberia, some people may even eat the flesh
of those who died. But we don't use this as an excuse
to eat our neighbours on Fridays, do we?
seetoh
Neither a murderer nor a murderee be.
Henry
GeoWCherry wrote:
>
> Henry wrote:
>
> << He forgets that slandering and flaming others are as powerful as knife at
> times. >>
>
> I agree that slandering an flaming others is harmful AND counterproductive. But
> a barbed word is not as painful or lethal as the knife that slits the throat of
> a veal calf.
Not true. Verbal abuse could be as bad as using knife to poke the poor
fellow. If the victim is not strong in his/her character, such verbal
abuse would cause a bad effect on his/her life.
Henry
GeoWCherry wrote:
>
> >Since when the Buddha said that you MUST be a vegetarian in order to
> >follow the Buddha's teachings? Have you forgotten the quotes on
> >Devdatta's debate with the Buddha?
>
> Henry, why not give animals the benefit of the doubt? Anyway, there is
> absolutely no necessity in nutrition, health, or cuisine for human beings to
> eat animals. These creatures are sentient and they do suffer in their
> transportation to the slauglter house and their slaughter. I am happier and
> healthier for having become a vegetarian. I enjoy the feeling of not harming a
> innocent sentient being. (Yes, I would swat a fly or a mosquito. I would even
> eat a clam, who has no central nervous system to individuate its demise.)
Since you have already mentioned these creatures are sentient beings and
fly and mosquito belong to the realms of animals, you shouldn't swat
them. Aren't they deserved to be freed of sufferings?
Take a close look into the Devadatta's debate with the Buddha.
Devadatta's rules for the Sangha:
1. Must keep to the forests and never live in a settle place
2. Eat only begged alms food and never accept meal invitations
3. Wear only robes pieced together from refuse rags and never accept a
gift of cloth
4. Dwell only outdoors and never in shelters
5. Never eat fish or meat
Sakyamuni Buddha's rules for the Sangha:
1. Free to dwell in forests or villages
2. Eat alms food or accept invitations
3. Wear refuse-rag robes or accept cloth as they chose
4. Could dwell either outdoors or in shelters for eight months of the
year, but must take shelter during the rainy season
5. Meat and fish could be eaten if it was not seen, heard, or suspected
to have been killed expressly for the eater
tri...@my-deja.com
ther...@aol.comhoho (Theravad) wrote:
> In article <8e0b6k$6bb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, tri...@my-deja.com writes:
>
Without
> >> the term 'sufferings', the term 'relief' doesn't exist.
> >
>
> >>You are quoting out of context,
> and hence your reply is meaningless.
>
> makes perfect sense to me.
It makes perfect sense to me too. :-)
The thread is somewhat confusing, as Trizin and Seetoh
happens to be the same net persona. Afterall, it is
just an illusion.
seetoh
tri...@my-deja.com
ge...@pacific.net.sg wrote:
>
>
> GeoWCherry wrote:
> >
> > Henry wrote:
> >
> > << He forgets that slandering and flaming others are as powerful as
knife at
> > times. >>
> >
> > I agree that slandering an flaming others is harmful AND
counterproductive. But
> > a barbed word is not as painful or lethal as the knife that slits
the throat of
> > a veal calf.
>
> Not true. Verbal abuse could be as bad as using knife to
> poke the poor fellow.
If that is true, Henry, why do you continually flame and
slander others by labelling them as cults?
> If the victim is not strong in his/her character, such verbal
> abuse would cause a bad effect on his/her life.
Again, Henry, you are admitting that your verbal abuse
of others are causing them untold suffering.
Why do you do that, Henry?
seetoh
Neither a murderer nor a murderee be.
Ananda
come in and spoil the fun.
dar <rokt...@my-deja.com> wrote
> hee, hee
> a jokes a joke
>
> what a bunch of suckers
>
> lv,
> devadatta
>
>
> emptiness is a dead beer
tri...@my-deja.com
ge...@pacific.net.sg wrote:
> GeoWCherry wrote:
> > >Since when the Buddha said that you MUST be a vegetarian in order
to
> > >follow the Buddha's teachings? Have you forgotten the quotes on
> > >Devdatta's debate with the Buddha?
> >
> > Henry, why not give animals the benefit of the doubt? Anyway, there
is
> > absolutely no necessity in nutrition, health, or cuisine for human
beings to
> > eat animals. These creatures are sentient and they do suffer in
their
> > transportation to the slauglter house and their slaughter. I am
happier and
> > healthier for having become a vegetarian. I enjoy the feeling of
not harming a
> > innocent sentient being. (Yes, I would swat a fly or a mosquito. I
would even
> > eat a clam, who has no central nervous system to individuate its
demise.)
>
> Sakyamuni Buddha's rules for the Sangha: <snipped>
You may prefer to use blind faith & follow tradition,
but I prefer to think for myself.
Since you never heard the debate yourself,
you are relying on blind faith
* that the debate actually occurred,
* that it was reported accurately word-for-word,
* that it was passed down accurately for centuries through word of
mouth,
* that nobody added or subtracted anything, or embellished it, and
* that it was translated perfectly from one language to the next.
Are you not making too many assumptions,
when you do not even know what language(s)
the Buddha used?
What language(s) was the debate conducted in, Henry?
seetoh
Neither a blind murderer nor a blind murderee be.
Don Martin
"Henrik Ræder Clausen" <hen...@myself.com> wrote in message
news:3906202...@myself.com...
> Perfectly possible. Just don't do Theravada, try Mahayana or (even
> better) Vajrayana.
****** How can one possibly do the latter without doing previous two?
Henry
trizin wrote:
>
> What is the difference between Dependent Origination
> and Interdependent Origination?
They are the same. Different translators choose different words to
translate Sanskrit & Pali languages.
> Perhaps because the movement does not claim to be a Buddhist
> School.
>
> Is it not strange that those who would claim to be
> Buddhists prefer to eat the flesh of other sentient
> beings?
>
> Paying oral tribute to compassion while the hands
> are stained with blood.
>
> [Sarcasm On] These are indeed great Buddhists. [Sarcasm Off]
Becoz the Buddha did mention that it is allowed when He debated with
Devadatta.
Henry
trizin wrote:
>
> That's a nice little koan for you.
>
> Solving that would bring you a step
> closer to liberation from Samsara.
> However, that could bring Samsara
> two steps away from you. Aaarrgh...
>
> However, if you don't look at it
> that way, you could take it as an
> exercise in lateral thinking.
> It may even charge up your neurons.
I have my own little 'koan' for you too:
Homage to Holy Lokesvara!
When one abandons Samsara for Nirvana,
One attains the fruit of Arhat,
When one abandons Nirvana for Samsara,
One is forever dwelling in the sea of sufferings.
Drawing water from well but do not get wet,
Like beautiful lotus found in the pond,
One seeks Nirvana and dwells in Samsara,
Manifests countless Nirmanakaya and benefit sentient beings.
Henry
trizin wrote:
>
>
> Don't you think that you are flaming and slandering
> others by claiming them to be cults, Henry?
I was from Tian Tao Movement. (Being conned though) Therefore, I am in
more better position to talk about their activities. Next, I have
visited 'Uncle' Lu's public 'Dharma' talk before and have heard his
words, again, I am in more better position to talk about their
activities.
Henry
tri...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>
> You may prefer to use blind faith & follow tradition,
> but I prefer to think for myself.
>
> Since you never heard the debate yourself,
> you are relying on blind faith
> * that the debate actually occurred,
> * that it was reported accurately word-for-word,
> * that it was passed down accurately for centuries through word of
> mouth,
> * that nobody added or subtracted anything, or embellished it, and
> * that it was translated perfectly from one language to the next.
>
> Are you not making too many assumptions,
> when you do not even know what language(s)
> the Buddha used?
>
> What language(s) was the debate conducted in, Henry?
>
> seetoh
> Neither a blind murderer nor a blind murderee be.
You could read the sutta yourself, brother.
Henry
dar wrote:
>
> hee, hee
> a jokes a joke
>
> what a bunch of suckers
>
> lv,
> devadatta
>
> emptiness is a dead beer
And you could laugh yourself wholeheartly when you realize the fault of
samsara and what you have done over these years.
Henry
tri...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>
> Again, Henry, you are admitting that your verbal abuse
> of others are causing them untold suffering.
>
> Why do you do that, Henry?
You are crying like a baby.
Singapore DharmaNet
certainly need a double XL dose for this one reply.
tri...@my-deja.com
Singapore DharmaNet <chi...@cyberway.com.sg> wrote:
> Seetoh, I hope you are not out of your vegetarian "Myojo". You
> certainly need a double XL dose for this one reply.
It's true that I find Henry's reply tasteless.
He also happened to miss my meaning by a mile.
Perhaps that's the karma of those who believed
in Buddhism with blind faith. The head is so
deep in the sand, I wonder how he breathes, or
if he breathes at all.
seetoh
www.singaporeans.com
trizin wrote:
>
>> What is the difference between Dependent Origination
>> and Interdependent Origination?
>They are the same. Different translators choose different words to
>translate Sanskrit & Pali languages.
>> Perhaps because the movement does not claim to be a Buddhist
>> School.
>
>> Is it not strange that those who would claim to be
>> Buddhists prefer to eat the flesh of other sentient
>> beings?
>
>> Paying oral tribute to compassion while the hands
>> are stained with blood.
>
>> [Sarcasm On] These are indeed great Buddhists. [Sarcasm Off]
>Becoz the Buddha did mention that it is allowed when He
> debated with Devadatta.
trizin
<ge...@pacific.net.sg> wrote:
>trizin wrote:
>> Don't you think that you are flaming and slandering
>> others by claiming them to be cults, Henry?
>
>I was from Tian Tao Movement. (Being conned though)
> Therefore, I am in more better position to talk about
> their activities.
Agreed. You've cast away the old for the new,
and is currently being involved with the activities
of the Sakya tradition, Lamas, Rinpoches, and maybe
even Sakya Trizin himself.
But how do you know that you are not being conned now?
As you've shown yourself to be capable of turning
against your former spiritual advisers with such
venom, would you not do the same to the Sakya
tradition when you find it not to your taste anymore?
As personal beliefs change faster than attitudes
and values, it would not be surprising if your
faith in the Sakya tradition disappears, just like
your faith in EeKuanTao, whilst your attitude of
harboring venom against your former friends prevails.
Then you'll probably have a section for the Sakya
tradition in your Buddhist cults page. You can
then claim quite rightly that you have inside
knowledge of the operations of the "Sakya cult".
And you may even describe in detail the behaviors
of Sakya Trizin's wife and son, or the consorts
of other Lamas.
How can any Teacher possibly trust you?
EeKuanTao, like any other tradition, does not
exist from its own side. If it is a cult, then
it is followers like you who make it so:
followers who have nothing but blind faith.
Followers define a movement, and you are helping
the Sakya tradition to define its movement now.
My sympathies for the lamas you serve.
seetoh
Neither a snake nor a traitor be.
swift
trizin <taoNO...@myremarq.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:2f263f70...@usw-ex0102-084.remarq.com...
Seetoh, aren't you seeing a duality in the relationship
between teacher and pupil which does not exist?
btw, don't you like snakes?
love
swift
tri...@my-deja.com
I do not understand your question...
would appreciate if you can explain...
> btw, don't you like snakes?
A figurative use of the term, as in the Adam & Eve story.
My apologies to snakes if it offended them/you.
seetoh
tri...@my-deja.com
ge...@pacific.net.sg wrote:
> tri...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > You may prefer to use blind faith & follow tradition,
> > but I prefer to think for myself.
> >
> > Since you never heard the debate yourself,
> > you are relying on blind faith
> > * that the debate actually occurred,
> > * that it was reported accurately word-for-word,
> > * that it was passed down accurately for centuries through word of
> > mouth,
> > * that nobody added or subtracted anything, or embellished it, and
> > * that it was translated perfectly from one language to the next.
> >
> > Are you not making too many assumptions,
> > when you do not even know what language(s)
> > the Buddha used?
> >
> > What language(s) was the debate conducted in, Henry?
> >
> > seetoh
> > Neither a blind murderer nor a blind murderee be.
>
> You could read the sutta yourself, brother.
Henry, since you've presumably read the sutta,
please tell us what language the debate was conducted in.
Also, explain how you know
* that the debate actually occurred,
* that it was reported accurately word-for-word,
* that it was passed down accurately for centuries through word of
mouth,
* that nobody added or subtracted anything, or embellished it, and
* that it was translated perfectly from one language to the next.
Are you not making too many assumptions,
when you do not even know what language(s)
the Buddha used?
If you can't explain, then it would mean that your beliefs are based on
blind faith.
seetoh
www.buddhism.intranets.com
Ananda
> He also happened to miss my meaning by a mile.
>
> Perhaps that's the karma of those who believed
> in Buddhism with blind faith. The head is so
> deep in the sand, I wonder how he breathes, or
> if he breathes at all.
2. Sila - Morality
3. Nekkhamma - Renunciation
4. Panna - Wisdom
5. Viriya - Perseverance
6. Khanti - Patience
7. Sacca - Truthfulness
8. Adhitthana - Determination
9. Metta - Loving-kindness
10. Upekkha - Equanimity
tri...@my-deja.com
"Ananda" <chi...@cyberway.com.sg> wrote:
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BFB1CF.E266D580
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <tri...@my-deja.com> wrote=20
> > It's true that I find Henry's reply tasteless.
> > He also happened to miss my meaning by a mile.
> > Perhaps that's the karma of those who believed
> > in Buddhism with blind faith. The head is so
> > deep in the sand, I wonder how he breathes, or
> > if he breathes at all.
>
> Don't forget Seetoh, besides widsom, there are 9 other
> virtues we need to develop like :-
> ( I quoted all 10 for convenient sake )
>
> Dasa Paramita ( Ten Perfections )
> 2. Sila - Morality=20
> 3. Nekkhamma - Renunciation=20
> 4. Panna - Wisdom=20
> 5. Viriya - Perseverance=20
> 6. Khanti - Patience=20
> 7. Sacca - Truthfulness=20
> 8. Adhitthana - Determination=20
> 9. Metta - Loving-kindness=20
> 10. Upekkha - Equanimity=20
>
> Hopefully Henry will eventually master wisdom for his final =
> enlightenment one day.
Thank you for the reminder, Ananda.
Regards,
seetoh
> ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BFB1CF.E266D580
> Content-Type: text/html;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> <HTML><HEAD>
> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
> http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
> <STYLE></STYLE>
> </HEAD>
> <BODY>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><<A=20
> href=3D"mailto:tri...@my-deja.com">tri...@my-deja.com</A>> wrote =
> </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> It's true that I find Henry's =
> reply=20
> tasteless.<BR>> He also happened to miss my meaning by a =
> mile.<BR>>=20
> <BR>> Perhaps that's the karma of those who believed<BR>> in =
> Buddhism with=20
> blind faith. The head is so<BR>> deep in the sand, I wonder how he
=
> breathes,=20
> or<BR>> if he breathes at all.</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Don't forget Seetoh, besides widsom,
=
> there are 9=20
> other virtues we need to develop like :- </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>( I quoted all 10 for convenient
sake=20
> )</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial><STRONG><EM><U>Dasa Paramita
( =
> Ten=20
> Perfections )</U></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>l. Dana - Charity <BR>2. Sila - =
> Morality <BR>3.=20
> Nekkhamma - Renunciation <BR>4. Panna - Wisdom <BR>5. Viriya - =
> Perseverance=20
> <BR>6. Khanti - Patience <BR>7. Sacca - Truthfulness <BR>8.
Adhitthana - =
>
> Determination <BR>9. Metta - Loving-kindness <BR>10. Upekkha - =
> Equanimity=20
> </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hopefully Henry will eventually
master =
> wisdom for=20
> his final enlightenment one day.<BR></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BFB1CF.E266D580--
Henry
trizin wrote:
>
> My sympathies for the lamas you serve.
My sympathies for you who serve a person nothing other than an emanation
of a demoness.
Henry
tri...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> It's true that I find Henry's reply tasteless.
> He also happened to miss my meaning by a mile.
Add salt and pepper then.
Henry
tri...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>
> Henry, since you've presumably read the sutta,
> please tell us what language the debate was conducted in.
I begin to yawn.
tri...@my-deja.com
ge...@pacific.net.sg wrote:
> tri...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Henry, since you've presumably read the sutta,
> > please tell us what language the debate was conducted in.
>
> I begin to yawn.
Maybe that's because you deleted most of my post:
In article <3907B391...@pacific.net.sg>,
ge...@pacific.net.sg wrote:
> tri...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > You may prefer to use blind faith & follow tradition,
> > but I prefer to think for myself.
> >
> > Since you never heard the debate yourself,
> > you are relying on blind faith
> > * that the debate actually occurred,
> > * that it was reported accurately word-for-word,
> > * that it was passed down accurately for centuries through word of
> > mouth,
> > * that nobody added or subtracted anything, or embellished it, and
> > * that it was translated perfectly from one language to the next.
> >
> > Are you not making too many assumptions,
> > when you do not even know what language(s)
> > the Buddha used?
> >
> > What language(s) was the debate conducted in, Henry?
> >
> > seetoh
> > Neither a blind murderer nor a blind murderee be.
>
> You could read the sutta yourself, brother.
Henry, since you've presumably read the sutta,
please tell us what language the debate was conducted in.
Also, explain how you know
* that the debate actually occurred,
* that it was reported accurately word-for-word,
* that it was passed down accurately for centuries through word of
mouth,
* that nobody added or subtracted anything, or embellished it, and *
that it was translated perfectly from one language to the next.
Are you not making too many assumptions,
when you do not even know what language(s)
the Buddha used?
If you can't explain, then it would mean that
your beliefs are based on blind faith.
seetoh
www.buddhism.intranets.com
tri...@my-deja.com
ge...@pacific.net.sg wrote:
> trizin wrote:
> > My sympathies for the lamas you serve.
> My sympathies for you who serve a person nothing
> other than an emanation of a demoness.
Your tendency to see me as an evil cultist
demonstrate the state of your mind. Carrying
this into the bardo state, you may see demons
and demonesses, but those are all manifestations
of your own mind. Demons all are your own creation.
"Buddhas of the past and future only talk about
this mind. The mind is the Buddha, and Buddha is
the mind. Beyond the mind, there is no Buddha,
and beyond the Buddha there's no mind." -- Bodhidharma.
See Pure Lands & Buddhas in your mindstream instead.
seetoh
Day of the Bardo