Taisen Deshimaru calls Yasutani-Roshi and Kapleau insane
Len So So
I once read a book--*The Voice of the Valley*--which was a transcript of
teachings and so on by the Zen Master Taisen Deshimaru,
at a retreat. A couple of things were notable in this:
1) Taisen Deshimaru stated that Yasutani-Roshi was mentally ill, and
that if a Roshi is mentally ill, his students are lunatics, too. This
would of course include Philip Kapleau, Yasutani's student, as one of
the people Taisen Deshimaru calls crazy.
I found a page in French where Taisen Deshimaru is interviewed about
this, and backs up his attacks on Kapleau and Yasutani-Roshi. I know
your French is good. Would you be so kind as to translate it? Thanks.
Here is the URL:
http://www.deuxversants.com/deshimaru.html
2. There is a particular scene in *The Voice of the Valley* where
Taisen Deshimaru's discipline of students who missed an administrative
meeting is discussed. He has them beaten with sticks, as punishment for
missing the meeting, and the scene ends with him shouting
"Stronger!"--that is, he wants his students.
beaten harder.
Two questions for anyone:
What is the source of the conflict between Taisen Deshimaru and
Yasutani-Roshi?
Were any of the students seriously injured during the beating, so that
they required hospitalization or medical care?
abe...@toshiba.panix.com
>
> 1) Taisen Deshimaru stated that Yasutani-Roshi was mentally ill, and
> that if a Roshi is mentally ill, his students are lunatics, too. This
> would of course include Philip Kapleau, Yasutani's student, as one of
> the people Taisen Deshimaru calls crazy.
Sounds like a lot of companies I've worked at/am working at. Lunacy can, at
times, be conducive to achieving a higher consciousness. That, or a good dose
of LSD.
> 2. There is a particular scene in *The Voice of the Valley* where
> Taisen Deshimaru's discipline of students who missed an administrative
> meeting is discussed. He has them beaten with sticks, as punishment for
> missing the meeting, and the scene ends with him shouting
> "Stronger!"--that is, he wants his students.
> beaten harder.
Again, nothing new here for anyone who's ever had to toil away in Corporate
America and know what it's like to be another faceless cog in the wheel.
> Two questions for anyone:
>
> What is the source of the conflict between Taisen Deshimaru and
> Yasutani-Roshi?
>
I'm no zen buddhist master, but my guess would be the same reason that any two
people have a conflict -- it always boils down to EGO.
Lose the self, and you gain eternity. Do otherwise, and you're only hope is to
earn a runner-up prize on the great shit-mound of humanity.
> Were any of the students seriously injured during the beating, so that
> they required hospitalization or medical care?
Would it justify the beatings any more if they didn't require medical
attention? Nobody deserves to be beat except for people who think
Microsoft is a great company that makes great software and conservative
(repressed, impotent, fearful, paranoid) Republicans who think a woman's
right to choose is not her own and that anyone of Arab descent must
surely be some kind of terrorist.
-- anthony
Kirsten Bayes
>
> I found a page in French where Taisen Deshimaru is interviewed about
> this, and backs up his attacks on Kapleau and Yasutani-Roshi. I know
> your French is good. Would you be so kind as to translate it? Thanks.
> Here is the URL:
>
> http://www.deuxversants.com/deshimaru.html
>
Here is my translation of the page, from French:
<translation begins.
The text below is an account of a "mondo" (an exchange of questions and
responses) between Master Deshimaru and a disciple. It took place in the
Pernety Dojo, in Paris in 1980, a couple of years before the death of
the master. It has not been published before now. We reproduce it here
because we believe it brings clarity to a delicate point: the need for
discrimination, to affirm what is authentic, [even] at the detriment of
consensus. Others might think that it is preferable to seek a peaceful
world ....but not Master Deshimaru.
Disciple: You've recently received a letter from a Canadian disciple of
Philip Kapleau, a certain Albert Low. He says in his letter that the
teachings in several passages in your book, "The Voice of the Vallley"
inspired in him a profound sadness - principally the passages where,
according to him, you attack other illuminated masters. He thinks that
this kind of thing should not happen between elightened men. And to
finish, he says that you are only a strutting cock.
Deshimaru: I'm a cock?
Translator: Because you fight with other masters, with Kapleau, with
Yasutani...
Deshimaru: Ah yes, thats true. Buddha also - he criticised without
reservation the errors of others. He criticised equally the previous
religions of the Indus. All the great masters criticise. Christ also.
The religious must not follow an erroneous way. It's a very important
point. A Master who follows everything is stupid [ this is addressed to
masters who mix Rinzai and Soto, like Kapleau and Yasutani]. I can't
accept errors. [Master Deshimaru stands up]. The study of doctrine must
be a real discussion. What is the true way, the true place to stand?
There can only be one. In modern religion, everyone follows everything
that is put in front of them. Our lives are not long, and so we must
find the true path. Its for this reason that there are discussions
between masters. Which religion is the best? Which philosophy is the
best? What is true?
A true master has to bring this matter up. It's not only an argument:
it's the vocation of religion. Do you see?
Disciple: I understand. It's only fair that I answer that letter.
Deshimaru: It's not necessary. You don't have to get involved. My Voice
of the Valley is true. There is no other that counts. Only the the Voice
of the Valley carries a true response. I dont want to write excuses.
If people don't come to understanding, there is nothing to do about it.
Today, I have said only that you can lead a cow to the river, but you
cannot make it drink. You don't need to say, "you have to drink".
People are different, opinions vary. Its for that reason you have to
wait, you have to create the occasion. They are not mature, their sexual
organs are not mature. It's the same thing. Therefore you have to wait.
Don't trouble to respond to that letter.
Disciple: I will respond to it in the next book, the Roar of the Lion. I
intend to put this mondo that we are having at the moment into the Roar
of the Lion. OK?
Deshimaru: That's fine. It is not necessary to fight alone for your
opinions. But in publishing, people will end up understanding. Ten
years, one hundred years. Time resolves these questions
At the moment, people love the esotericism of Tibetan Buddhism. Round
about 1500, the Tibetans and the Zen people had a grand discussion: the
Lhasa Conference. This conference became very celebrated. What was the
best: Tibetan Buddhism or Zen? The King of Tibet attended that conference.
Disciple: and who won?
Deshimaru: You can't answer the above. But Zen monks had to leave Tibet.
In China, Tibetan Buddhism had already been stopped - it was Zen which
developed. That has been the case up to the present day. Today, it is
communism which has won in China.
In Tibetan Buddhism, there is not activity, only mysticism, only
estoricism. And therefore they become weak. And now the West is
attracted by that, by esotericism. America, Canada. If the Dalai Lama
comes they give him a big welcome. Everyone wants to receive the Dalai
Lama. It's dangerous. In America I am not as well received. Nor in
France, any more.But the Dalai Lama arrives and it's like "Paaaaah"
(gestures with his arms...). Everyone is like that. It's a mistake. If
it's me who comes, everyone saves themselves [the effort].Only strong
minded people understand. Do you see?
It's a very important problem. I am not about criticising Tibetan
Buddhism, I am not about criticising the Dalai Lama. He and I are good
friends. I have met him in Japan. He knows me. Karmapa also visited us
in this dojo. Karmapa was more diplomatic with me [than the Dalai Lama].
Karmapa gave me this statue of Bhuddha. Karmapa gave me five statues...
five statues!
In our civilisation, everyone has become weak.
Sometimes, esotericism is important, but the essence of the religion is
not limited by esotericism. Esotericism is a small dimension. Do you
see? Do you too like esotericism? Good luck!
<end translation>
and here is the French page:
Le texte ci-dessous reproduit un mondo (échange de questions et de
réponses) entre Maître Deshimaru et un disciple. Il se déroule au dojo
de Pernety, à Paris en 1980, deux ans avant la mort du maître. Il n'a
jamais été publié auparavant. Nous le reproduisons ici parce que nous
pensons qu'il apporte un éclairage fort sur un point délicat : la
nécessité de se démarquer, d'affirmer ce qui est authentique, au
détriment du consensus. D'autres pourraient penser qu'il est préférable
de rechercher un terrain d'entente... mais pas Maître Deshimaru.
Disciple: : Vous avez reçu récemment une lettre d'un disciple canadien
de Philip Kapleau, un certain Albert Low 1. Il dit dans sa lettre que la
lecture de plusieurs passages de votre livre La voix de la vallée 2 lui
a inspiré une profonde tristesse - principalement les passages où,
d'après lui, vous attaquez d'autres maîtres illuminés. Il pense que ce
genre de choses ne doit pas se faire entre hommes du satori. Et pour
finir, il dit que vous n'êtes qu'un coq de basse-cour.
Deshimaru: : Je suis un coq ?
Traducteur : Parce que vous vous battez avec d'autres maîtres, avec
Kapleau, avec Yasutani...
Deshimaru: : Oui, c'est vrai. Bouddha aussi, il critiquait sans réserve
les erreurs des autres. Il critiquait également les anciennes religions
de l'Inde. Tous les grands maîtres critiquent. Le Christ aussi. Les
religieux ne doivent pas suivre une voie erronée. C'est un point très
important. Un maître qui suit tout est stupide. [ceci s'dresse aux
maîtres qui mélangent le rinzai et le soto, comme Kapleau et Yasutani. ]
Je ne veux pas accepter les erreurs. [Maître Deshimaru lève le pouce.]
L'étude de la doctrine exige une vraie discussion. Quelle est la vraie
voie, le vrai sentier ? Il n'y en a qu'un. Dans la religion moderne,
tout le monde suit tout ce qui se présente. Nos vies ne sont pas
longues, aussi devons-nous trouver le véritable chemin. C'est pourquoi
il y a des discussions entre les maîtres. Quelle religion est la
meilleure ? Quelle philosophie est la meilleure ? Qu'est-ce qui est vrai
? Un vrai maître doit montrer cela. Il ne s'agit pas d'une querelle !
C'est la vocation de la religion. Vous comprenez ?
Disciple: : Je comprends. Il faut juste que je réponde à cette lettre!
Deshimaru: : Ce n'est pas nécessaire. Vous ne devez pas vous en mêler.
Ma Voix de la vallée est vraie. Il n'y a rien d'autre qui compte. Seul
La voix de la vallée apporte une vraie réponse. Je ne veux pas écrire
des excuses.
Les gens n'arrivent pas à comprendre, on ne peut rien y faire.
Aujourd'hui, j'ai dit qu'on peut accompagner la vache à la rivière mais
qu'on ne peut pas la forcer à boire. Pas besoin de dire : "Vous devez
boire !"
Les gens sont différents, les opinions varient. C'est pourquoi vous
devez attendre, vous devez créer l'occasion... Ils ne sont pas mûrs,
leurs organes sexuels ne sont pas mûrs. C'est la même chose. Donc, vous
devez attendre. Pas la peine de répondre à cette lettre.
Disciple: : J'y répondrai dans le prochain livre, Le rugissement du lion
3. J'ai l'intention de mettre ce mondo que nous avons en ce moment dans
Le rugissement du lion, d'accord ?
Deshimaru: : C'est mieux. Il n'est pas nécessaire de vous battre tout
seul, pour vos opinions. Mais en le publiant, les gens finiront par
comprendre. Dix ans, cent ans. Le temps résout ces questions.
Jusqu'à présent, les gens aiment l'ésotérisme du boudhisme tibétain...
Il y a environ 1500 ans, les Tibétains et les gens du zen ont eu une
grande discussion. La conférence de Lhasa. Cette conférence est devenue
très célèbre. Qu'est-ce qui était le mieux, le bouddhisme tibétain ou le
zen ? Le roi du Tibet assistait à la conférence.
Disciple: : Et qui a gagné ?
Deshimaru: : On ne peut pas trancher là dessus. Mais les moines zen ont
dû quitter le Tibet. En Chine, le Bouddhisme tibétain a été arrêté,
c'est le zen qui s'est développé. Ceci s'est perpétué jusqu'à nos jours.
Aujourd'hui, c'est le communisme qui a gagné en Chine.
Dans le bouddhisme tibétain, il n'y a pas d'activité, seulement du
mysticisme, seulement de l'ésotérisme. Si bien qu'ils deviennent
faibles. Les Tibétains n'ont plus de terre. Et maintenant l'Occident est
attiré par ceci, par l'ésotérisme. L'Amérique, le Canada. Si le Dalaï
Lama vient, ils lui font un bon accueil. Tout le monde veut recevoir le
Dalaï Lama. C'est dangereux. En Amérique je ne suis pas si bien
accueilli. En France non plus... Mais le Dalaï Lama arrive et "Paaahh !"
[Maître Deshimaru fait un geste des bras pour montrer une foule venue
écouter le Dalaï Lama.] Tout le monde est comme cela. C'est une erreur.
Si c'est moi qui viens, tout le monde se sauve. Seuls les gens forts
comprennent. Compris ?
C'est un problème important. Je ne suis pas en train de critiquer le
bouddhisme tibétain, je ne suis pas en train de critiquer le Dalaï Lama.
Lui et moi sommes de bons amis. Je l'ai rencontré au Japon. Il me
connaît. Karmapa aussi nous a rendu visite dans ce dojo. Karmapa a même
été plus diplomate avec moi [que le Dalaï Lama]. Karmapa m'a donné cette
statue de Bouddha. [Maître Deshimaru montre du doigt la statue sur
l'autel.] Karmapa m'a donné cinq statues, cinq statues !
Dans notre civilisation, tout le monde est devenu faible.
Parfois l'ésotérisme est important, mais l'essence de la religion ne se
limite pas à l'ésotérisme. L'ésotérisme est de petite dimension... Vous
comprenez ? Vous aussi vous aimez l'ésotérisme ? Bon dimanche !
Kirsten Bayes
>
> I found a page in French where Taisen Deshimaru is interviewed about
> this, and backs up his attacks on Kapleau and Yasutani-Roshi. I know
> your French is good. Would you be so kind as to translate it? Thanks.
> Here is the URL:
>
> http://www.deuxversants.com/deshimaru.html
>
Here is my translation of the page, from French:
Ned Ludd
news:3E1C6F32...@aol.com...
Len So So wrote:
>> I found a page in French where Taisen Deshimaru is interviewed about
>> this, and backs up his attacks on Kapleau and Yasutani-Roshi. I know
>> your French is good. Would you be so kind as to translate it? Thanks.
>> Here is the URL:
>> http://www.deuxversants.com/deshimaru.html
Kirsten:
> Here is my translation of the page, from French:
> Deshimaru: Ah yes, thats true. Buddha also - he criticised without
> reservation the errors of others. He criticised equally the previous
> religions of the Indus. All the great masters criticise. Christ also.
> The religious must not follow an erroneous way. It's a very important
> point. A Master who follows everything is stupid [ this is addressed
> to masters who mix Rinzai and Soto, like Kapleau and Yasutani]. I
> can't accept errors. [Master Deshimaru stands up]. The study of
> doctrine must be a real discussion. What is the true way, the true
> place to stand? There can only be one. In modern religion, everyone
> follows everything that is put in front of them. Our lives are not
> long, and so we must find the true path. Its for this reason that
> there are discussions between masters. Which religion is the best?
> Which philosophy is the best? What is true?
> A true master has to bring this matter up. It's not only an argument:
> it's the vocation of religion. Do you see?
> Disciple: I understand. It's only fair that I answer that letter.
>
It's hard to believe a zennie didn't choke on words like these.
(Had he NEVER read the Tao, or Mumon, or Huang Po?):
the true way
the true place to stand
There can only be one
the true path
Which religion is the best?
Which philosophy is the best?
What is true?
---
The true place to stand
is neither best nor singular,
neither true nor false.
In the vastness of this life,
the great way has no middle.
- Ned
Len So So
abe...@toshiba.panix.com wrote:
> In alt.buddha.short.fat.guy Len So So <har...@houghnospamt.com>
> wrote:
>
>> 1) Taisen Deshimaru stated that Yasutani-Roshi was mentally ill,
>> and that if a Roshi is mentally ill, his students are lunatics,
>> too. This would of course include Philip Kapleau, Yasutani's
>> student, as one of the people Taisen Deshimaru calls crazy.
>>
>
> Sounds like a lot of companies I've worked at/am working at. Lunacy
can, at
> times, be conducive to achieving a higher consciousness. That, or a
good dose
> of LSD.
Hee hee, I've worked for some famous crazy bosses myself. They are sort
of different than famous crazy teachers, in large part because bosses'
anecdotes are better. (The Bosses will have professional grudges, but
they are more appreciative of the good qualities in others, so their war
stories are more entertaining.)
**snip* the part about the teacher yelling "Stronger!" during the beating*
> Again, nothing new here for anyone who's ever had to toil away in
Corporate
> America and know what it's like to be another faceless cog in the
> wheel.
Yeah. I usually try to make my own fun at work. By the way, it occurs
to me that "Stronger!" may be the book's bad translation of "plus
forte!"--the retreat was held in France, and Taisen Deshimaru may have
been speaking in French.
>> Two questions for anyone:
>>
>> What is the source of the conflict between Taisen Deshimaru and
Yasutani-Roshi?
>>
That's my own question, nobody's answered it yet. Here is some writing
by Luc Boussard that addresses the crux of the conflict. This is from
a page
http://www.zen-azi.org/html/guerre_e.html#_4
with various comments on Brian Victoria's *Zen at War*, which
exposed the collusion of Soto Zen masters with facism and militarism.
Says Luc Boussard,
"I must be frank. Seeing the American Zen establishment suffer in its
puritanism and its good conscience by discovering that the lineage
from which much of it comes (Shaku Sôen, Harada Daiun Sôgaku, Yasutani
Hakuun) seriously compromised itself for an atrocious cause does not
exactly displease me. This same establishment ostracized Master
Deshimaru because he criticized the mixture of Soto and Rinzai made
fashionable in the United States by precisely the people who Zen at War
accuses of colluding with facism."
> I'm no zen buddhist master, but my guess would be the same reason
> that any two
> people have a conflict -- it always boils down to EGO.
>
> Lose the self, and you gain eternity. Do otherwise, and you're only
hope is to
> earn a runner-up prize on the great shit-mound of humanity.
I'd agree, I liked what you had to say.
> Would it justify the beatings any more if they didn't require medical
> attention?
Heh, yeah. Sometimes good cookies justify a beating, in the minds of
dharma center directors. I once got beaten in front of 100 or so
retreatants by the excellent baker at Karme Choling, years ago (I had
taken a serving of spinach on my way through the lunch line, which was
reserved it for people who'd signed up for "special diet." I just
ignored the sign, as I'd just developed a cold that day, needed green
vegetables, and had been working very hard outside all day.) It was
more than a bit risky to undergo, as beatings go, as I had a tray of hot
food in my hands. But I think the house was mainly concerned that if
the baker was disciplined this might lead to resignation, and would mean
no more marvellous breads and cookies. Sort of a classic case of
corporate corporal punishment, with a Dickensian twist.
Does your office go crazy in cycles? Mine does.
Robert Epstein
robert
============
NoMatterNoMind
the true place to stand is right under your feet.
neither best nor worst, it simply is just as it is,
working wondrously without interference.
beyond true and false, the middle way has no greatness.
without greatness it is a middle without a mean.
thus the great way is always 'middle' but never 'middling'.
Love
I really like that.
This Deshimaru guy would make a great troll.
--
Love
!! Archimedes Ginblossom
Love wrote:
I only read the book and the various websites, but I thought he was
raw or too forceful, sure. Those aren't, though, troll qualities.
He passed away more than 20 years ago I think, so it's sort of like you
are asking for FRANKENTROLL-ROSHI, or something like that.
But an American Roshi did troll Taisen's organization a few years ago.
He came in to the virtual zendo Taisen's people had, didn't identify
himself as a monk or from a Soto lineage, and asked a troll question
about norwegian cooking.
I figured he didn't like Taisen D.'s organization, both from the stunt,
and from the somewhat skewed translation he gave of the exchange. But
who cares.
Look up taisen deshimaru on a google search for alt.zen.
BTW, i felt then, and still do, that the last two words in Kosen's
reply are properly translated as "silly questions" not as "idiot
questions." "Idiote" is a much more affectionate term in French.
>
Ned Ludd
news:3e1d013f$1...@news.teranews.com...
Kirsten:
>>Here is my translation of the page, from French:
>>Deshimaru: Ah yes, thats true. Buddha also - he criticised without
>>reservation the errors of others. He criticised equally the previous
>>religions of the Indus. All the great masters criticise. Christ also.
>>The religious must not follow an erroneous way. It's a very important
>>point. A Master who follows everything is stupid [ this is addressed
>>to masters who mix Rinzai and Soto, like Kapleau and Yasutani]. I
>>can't accept errors. [Master Deshimaru stands up]. The study of
>>doctrine must be a real discussion. What is the true way, the true
>>place to stand? There can only be one. In modern religion, everyone
>>follows everything that is put in front of them. Our lives are not
>>long, and so we must find the true path. Its for this reason that
>>there are discussions between masters. Which religion is the best?
>>Which philosophy is the best? What is true?
>>A true master has to bring this matter up. It's not only an argument:
>>it's the vocation of religion. Do you see?
>>Disciple: I understand. It's only fair that I answer that letter.
Ned:
> It's hard to believe a zennie didn't choke on words like these.
> (Had he NEVER read the Tao, or Mumon, or Huang Po?):
> the true way
> the true place to stand
> There can only be one
> the true path
> Which religion is the best?
> Which philosophy is the best?
> What is true?
> ---
> The true place to stand -
> neither best nor singular,
> neither true nor false.
> In the vastness of this life,
> the great way has no middle.
Love:
> "the great way has no middle"
> I really like that.
>
Thank the compiler of Blue Cliff.
> This Deshimaru guy would make a great troll.
>
So true. In Zen, imo, you really can say any damn thing you
want to. It's more how, when, and to whom you say it.
The above translation has some interesting comments in it
that 'prick the ears', as good zen commentary often does:
- Buddha... criticised equally the previous religions of the
Indus. All the great masters criticise. Christ also.
- A Master who follows everything is stupid
- What is the true way, the true place to stand? There can
only be one.
Ned
Ned Ludd
news:3ea1fc28.03010...@posting.google.com...
Kirsten:
>> Here is my translation of the page, from French:
>> Deshimaru: Ah yes, thats true. Buddha also - he criticised without
>> reservation the errors of others. He criticised equally the previous
>> religions of the Indus. All the great masters criticise. Christ also.
>> The religious must not follow an erroneous way. It's a very important
>> point. A Master who follows everything is stupid [ this is addressed
>> to masters who mix Rinzai and Soto, like Kapleau and Yasutani]. I
>> can't accept errors. [Master Deshimaru stands up]. The study of
>> doctrine must be a real discussion. What is the true way, the true
>> place to stand? There can only be one. In modern religion, everyone
>> follows everything that is put in front of them. Our lives are not
>> long, and so we must find the true path. Its for this reason that
>> there are discussions between masters. Which religion is the best?
>> Which philosophy is the best? What is true?
>> A true master has to bring this matter up. It's not only an argument:
>> it's the vocation of religion. Do you see?
>> Disciple: I understand. It's only fair that I answer that letter.
Ned:
> It's hard to believe a zennie didn't choke on words like these.
> (Had he NEVER read the Tao, or Mumon, or Huang Po?):
> the true way
> the true place to stand
> There can only be one
> the true path
> Which religion is the best?
> Which philosophy is the best?
> What is true?
> ---
> The true place to stand -
> neither best nor singular,
> neither true nor false.
> In the vastness of this life,
> the great way has no middle.
NMNM:
> the true place to stand is right under your feet.
> neither best nor worst, it simply is just as it is,
> working wondrously without interference.
>
Presented with the summit of the Mystic Peak, Ch'ang Ch'ing
could only say, "Indeed, what a pity!"
> beyond true and false, the middle way has no greatness.
> without greatness it is a middle without a mean.
> thus the great way is always 'middle' but never 'middling'.
>
No greatness, no mean,
just a common patch of dirt,
full of skulls and weeds.
- Ned
Len So So
translator, Kirsten: I didn't have time to do it for the group.
We used to have a Mrs. B. in here, who was quite fluent...
Most teachers are so careful to HIDE all the embarassing stuff, the
beatings and the bickerings and the money problems and the professional
hatreds. They'll talk about it, but not let it appear in print.
But not Mr. T, there. Pretty funny. I can hear him saying "I PITY THE
FOOL!"
I keep wondering, as i read, if he was jealous because he had adopted
an anti-war stance during world war II, and then found that all the
teachers who wrote anti-Semitic propaganda (like Yasutani Roshi) went
on to be more famous, etc..
Anyways, now we know more, which is good.
john
rensaku and usually consisted of a few blows on each shoulder with the
kyosaku. As far as I am aware no one has ever been hospitalised by this.
John
On 1/9/03 7:17 PM, in article hkir1vgnnsn8lcq5f...@4ax.com,
"tinkerbuddha" <tinker...@shambleslalaland.con> wrote:
> keep off the lawn
>
>
cupcake
>
> Re: Taisen Deshimaru calls Yasutani-Roshi and Kapleau insane
>
> From: john <john...@clara.net>
> Reply to: [1]john
> Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 19:55:15 +0000
> Newsgroups:
> [2]alt.zen,
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> [11]<hkir1vgnnsn8lcq5f...@4ax.com>
>To partly answer one of the original questions; the beatings were called
>rensaku and usually consisted of a few blows on each shoulder with the
>kyosaku. As far as I am aware no one has ever been hospitalised by this.
>
if any of yu zen/chan clowns so much as even touch me,
(unless of course i ask yu to rub my sweet little pussy :)
i'll have yer asses put in jail for assault!
>John
>
>On 1/9/03 7:17 PM, in article hkir1vgnnsn8lcq5f...@4ax.com,
>"tinkerbuddha" <tinker...@shambleslalaland.con> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 9 Jan 2003 10:24:55 -0600, "Ned Ludd" <ned...@ix.netcom.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> NoMatterNoMind <nomatte...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> [12]news:3ea1fc28.03010...@posting.google.com...
HAIR
Len So So wrote:
A few links: Taisen Deshimaru is verbally agressive (whence my Mr. T
joke) in that mondo, but he did indeed decline to be a soldier in WW II.
Luc Boussard says, at http://www.zen-azi.org/html/guerre_e.html
"Master Deshimaru adds that his father wanted him to join the army, but
Kodo advised against it. "When I met Kodo Sawaki," he says, "I made my
choice : Being a monk is better than becoming a general. Even a
beggar-monk. My mind was made up. Kodo Sawaki was a determining influence."
So much for Master T.'s position. As for Yasutani-Roshi's anti-Semitic
remarks, here is a link to the respected magazine Tricycle's webpage on
Yasutani's Anti-Semitism.
http://www.tricycle.com/currentissue/yasutani/yasutaniindex.html
And here is a quick summary from the Featherman File at
http://www.forward.com/issues/1999/99.12.10/featherman.html
"Zen and the Art of Fascist Propaganda: A story in the Fall issue of
Tricycle: The Buddhist Review exposes the wartime anti-Semitism of a
prominent Japanese Zen master, Yasutani Roshi (1885-1973), who was
instrumental in bringing Zen to America -- and to many American Jews. A
Zen priest who is also a scholar, Brian Victoria, recently uncovered a
book that Yasutani wrote in 1943 espousing jingoistic nationalism,
militarism and rabid anti-Semitism. Amid references to the "demonic
teachings" of the "scheming Jews," the Buddhist sage wrote, "Everyone
should act according to their position in society....It is therefore
necessary to thoroughly defeat the propaganda and strategy of the Jews.
That is to say, we must clearly point out the fallacy of their evil
ideas advocating freedom and equality." As for the Japanese, Yasutani
argued that "annihilating the treachery of the United States and
Britain" was the only way to "save the one billion people of Asia" and
construct a "new world order." This, he wrote, was "the critically
important mission to be accomplished by our great Japanese empire." The
Jews, on the other hand, "are caught up in the delusion that they alone
have been chosen by God and are [therefore] an exceptionally superior
people."
Len So So
name. The above post is mine, cha cha.
Jazz
Get off my toes! :-)
NoMatterNoMind
naturally if a Mystic Peak is a final resting place there is no
difference from wearing cement overshoes on the bottom of Lake
Michigan.
if one merely climbs Mystic Peak on one's way to descend, then there
is no fault and no "pity". the Mystic Peak is a true place to stand
only as long as one can stand in a sewer just as well.
> > beyond true and false, the middle way has no greatness.
> > without greatness it is a middle without a mean.
> > thus the great way is always 'middle' but never 'middling'.
> >
>
> No greatness, no mean,
> just a common patch of dirt,
> full of skulls and weeds.
frost on pine needles,
wind blowing candy wrapper
WALK! but dodge traffic
Tang Huyen
instrumental in bringing Zen to America -- and to many American Jews -- was
virulently anti-Semitic ("It is therefore necessary to thoroughly defeat the
propaganda and strategy of the Jews") and anti-western ("annihilating the
treachery of the United States and Britain" was the only way to "save the one
(perhaps most) of his western followers all the happier.
They tend to hate their cultural and religious legacy, and will do anything to
spite it -- and their forebears, especially their parents. They will run off to
other parts of the world in search of anything to repudiate their cultural and
religious legacy in the abstract and their forebears, especially their parents,
in the concrete.
They are unreformed followers of the Religions of the Book, but pretend to bow
and scrape to people to look funny, talk funny and dress funny just to show how
much they have turned against their background and are now superior to it.
So if a teacher of theirs -- or a teacher of their teacher -- was virulently
anti-western and anti-Semitic, that plays directly into their hand: two birds
with one stone.
The more the merrier.
Who is going to complain?
Tang Huyen
HAIR wrote:
HAIR
Tang Huyen wrote:
> That a prominent Japanese Zen master, Yasutani Roshi (1885-1973), who was
> instrumental in bringing Zen to America -- and to many American Jews
-- was
> virulently anti-Semitic ("It is therefore necessary to thoroughly
defeat the
> propaganda and strategy of the Jews") and anti-western ("annihilating the
> treachery of the United States and Britain" was the only way to "save
the one
> billion people of Asia" and construct a "new world order")
+can only make many
> (perhaps most) of his western followers all the happier.
Actually, no. It upset a lot of people to find out. Most American
Buddhists would, I hope, feel that it is better that the truth came out.
But they are trying to forget about the Buddhist role in the
Holocaust, the rise of militant Japan, and the atrocities of Nanking and
World War II. It's too soon to forget: the information just came out 3
years ago.
What do Buddhists talk about instead? Most of them gossip about little
trivial things. The really evil gossips try to make great crimes out of
little, trivial things. The ordinary gossips talk about how such-and-so
a teacher is bad or stupid based on his/her habits of ritual or niceties
of dogma, or about sexual pecadilloes, or about money, or about family
influence.
As with most social settings, Dharma centers will usually turn you into
a pariah if you want nothing to do with the Friendly Gossip Club.
>
> They tend to hate their cultural and religious legacy, and will do
anything to
> spite it -- and their forebears, especially their parents. They will
run off to
> other parts of the world in search of anything to repudiate their
cultural and
> religious legacy in the abstract and their forebears, especially
their parents,
> in the concrete.
True. But some Dharma Centers sort of frown on that sort of thing.
Karme Choling always had this sort of street-tough, two-fisted,
no-phony-baloney attitude. I never met Trungpa Rinpoche, but he
certainly seems to have discouraged Orientalism. In fact, he was
(from writings I've seen that are not published) quite down on the
way Buddhism was going on in Asia. This, though, is no surprise to
anyone. At any rate, he didn't want people to try to escape their
American (or whatever) culture, and his published books all start
with this point, pretty much.
I liked his photographs, though I don't remember seeing an original.
Not everyone liked Karma Choling, and the house could be quite vicious
to people it didn't like. Jeremy Hayward, after he was made
an acharya, said in my presence that when he was an ordinary staff
member, "As soon as you turned your back, the knives were flying."
He thought the place had come a long way, but of course *he* had
come a long way (i.e. they'll treat an acharya a lot better than a
plain old staff member).
> They are unreformed followers of the Religions of the Book, but
pretend to bow
> and scrape to people to look funny, talk funny and dress funny just
to show how
> much they have turned against their background and are now superior
to it.
>
> So if a teacher of theirs -- or a teacher of their teacher -- was
virulently
> anti-western and anti-Semitic, that plays directly into their hand:
two birds
> with one stone.
Again, this is common, but not universal among Buddhists. And not
necessarily the majority attitude. I think there are lots of kinds
of escapism, but what you describe probably pertains more to the scene
around 1970 (I started in 1976) than nowadyas.
Tang Huyen
One would think that people study and practice mental culture for years and
decades, learning dead languages and the interpretation of them on the long and
arduous way, bowing and scraping the whole way through, to get a Roshi
certificate or Dharma transmission or whatever, ought to become at least
somewhat perceptive about the people they deal with in the long term, like their
Japanese Zen teachers.
Not the the frightening mind-reading power as often portrayed in records of Chan
and Zen, mind you, but just some ordinary interpersonal perceptivity that many
sinners out in the street who have never heard of mental culture command
effortlessly in their daily life. They can instantly recognise a lie if one is
delivered to them.
Yet these western Zen Roshi-s or teachers or whatever, after studying and
practicing mental culture for years and decades, learning dead languages and the
interpretation of them on the long and arduous way, bowing and scraping the
whole way through, to get a Roshi certificate or Dharma transmission or Osho
ordination or whatever, never had an inkling that their Japanese Zen teachers,
or the teachers of their teachers, were rabid anti-western and anti-Semitic
bigots who promoted Japanese racial superiority and military cruelty on a mass
scale! They lived right amidst them for years and decades and never knew them!
So, *what* exactly did they learn from those long and arduous years and decades,
sitting cross-legged for hours on ends, wiping their anus with sticks, in lovely
ancient Japanese monasteries, with presumably impeccable teachers in a
presumably long line stretching right back to the Buddha in India twenty-four
centuries ago?
Tang Huyen
HAIR wrote:
> Tang Huyen:
>
> > That a prominent Japanese Zen master, Yasutani Roshi (1885-1973),
> > who was instrumental in bringing Zen to America -- and to many
> > American Jews -- was virulently anti-Semitic ("It is therefore
> > necessary to thoroughly defeat the propaganda and strategy of the
> > Jews") and anti-western ("annihilating the treachery of the United
> > States and Britain" was the only way to "save the one billion people
> > of Asia" and construct a "new world order") can only make many
HAIR
> Wow! "It upset a lot of people to find out."
Nobody is superman, that's the point. Obviously we're all happier
if there is *mutual* sensitivity and recognition of this.
The subject seems to be Teacher Conflicts, and Teacher Problems, and
what they do to sanghas. I've clipped a lot of the thread so as to
stay away from ragging on a particular tradition, and to keep it within
the realm of what I have known, and felt, having gone through many of
these sangha problems.
It's not, for me, a matter of ragging on one tradition or sect or
discipline or person or lineage. The point is that social habits--the
ways humans behave in groups, and in groups with an ideology or an
authority figure--come into play, in these situations.
There's no consistency or fairness, usually, even when people are hurt
by a teacher's behavior. I've seen situations where, when a teacher was
in favor, students he had hurt were shunned and discredited by the sangha.
Yet, when that teacher later fell out of favor, all of a sudden there
was solicitousness and sympathy for these same students. And everyone
came forward with their criticisms of the teacher.
People are not superhuman--many get hurt when there is a rupture or
disruption. I've certainly asked people not to fight, and had pressure
of various sorts applied to me for pleading for peace and harmony.
I've asked other teachers not to publicize problems that my teachers
had, and these teachers have brutally rebuffed me. Or I've endured in
silence while they attacked an old teacher of mine, knowing that I had
suffered through problems with that teacher. I've also come forward
when there was a problem which many knew about, and which the teacher
was not addressing.
So there's a kind of opportunist mentality at work, as far as who's
criticized and who isn't. I don't like that mentality, and try to
avoid it.
In all these cases, I've worked hard, been a sincere member of the
sangha (with the sincerity often extending to the point of sincerely
realizing that I would do better with a different sangha, or with a
break from sangha life) and hoped for peace.
Basically, Tang, we're human and we live with humans. And groups with
hierarchies and political investments are not good at taking care of
each other.
HAIR
core point and our common viewpoint in this.
The problems come when authority or bureaucracy or superstition is
more important than the humans they supposedly benefit.
And when expectations of discipline vary according to the interests of
the teacher or the organization.
Grievances are bad--except when "the teacher" has a grievance against
a student, or another teacher.
Criticism is divisive--except when "the teacher" feels that greater
unity is achieved by criticizing those he resents, fears, or is jealous
of.
Publicizing a problem is bad--except when the teacher wants to silence
a student, or attack a rival.
The students must be totally honest and totally consistent--but when
"the teacher" fails publically, why, then--"these are unreasonable
standards to expect of the teacher."
The student should sacrifice his own interests to stay and work in that
dharma center--for we are all a community. But then the teacher gets a
plum assignment, a better gig, and he is gone to pursue his career in
more comfortable or dignified circumstances. I've sat in silence with
people who threw their lives and fortunes into a group that the teacher
decided to abandon when he found a richer patron.
Anyways, I'll probably have a springier sense of humor later in the day.
I feel I should at least organize the links and citations from the
original thread and maybe dig up a copy of *Voice of the Valley* for the
quotations I alluded to.
I seem to have been drawn into a reflective phase about my experiences
in Buddhism, which is probably good.
Mr. Black Smith
>
> Let me just follow up my own post so that I address what I see as your
> core point and our common viewpoint in this.
>
> The problems come when authority or bureaucracy or superstition is
> more important than the humans they supposedly benefit.
but this is where the east is superior (in theory).
authority or/and bureaucracy or/and superstition are what tempt the
nature as peace is still.
organization is a way to peace.
>
> And when expectations of discipline vary according to the interests of
> the teacher or the organization.
only self-interest destroys the teacher. just as the expectations, so
to the results. but do not ignore what is obvious. wait.
.
> Grievances are bad--except when "the teacher" has a grievance against
> a student, or another teacher.
With a student? Yes. theStudent is such (a departure) from teacher in
it's own mind. another teacher? there is no argument with another
teacher. but one. do you understand deepak chopra? I do. Do you
understand me too?
who will sound more like you than a 'verbal magician' with fancy
finger work.
>
> Criticism is divisive--except when "the teacher" feels that greater
> unity is achieved by criticizing those he resents, fears, or is jealous
> of.
Again, this is not a teacher that is aMaster with a stick. all acts
are done in service and in silence as a sign of knowing theWay. thus,
again, theStudent does not appreciate appreciation.
even a half-job well done is more than someone else's task.
>
> Publicizing a problem is bad--except when the teacher wants to silence
> a student, or attack a rival.
True. But in the real world (not said in the insulting way) I can see
and hear all around me that this ain't it! Thus, in the real world is
where theReal Beings attack the wanna-bes. not by depleating them but
rather filling them until the explode. and then what? wait.
>
> The students must be totally honest and totally consistent--but when
> "the teacher" fails publically, why, then--"these are unreasonable
> standards to expect of the teacher."
expectations of a teacher's character is the fault of the student not
the teacher or it's master.
>
> The student should sacrifice his own interests
self-interest is what destroys the teacher. see? they know when their
game is over.
> to stay and work in that
> dharma center--for we are all a community. But then the teacher gets a
> plum assignment, a better gig, and he is gone to pursue his career in
> more comfortable or dignified circumstances.
Given the choice <bait>, I will chose comfort.
> I've sat in silence with
> people who threw their lives and fortunes into a group that the teacher
> decided to abandon when he found a richer patron.
but the student would not do this? do you suggest that the student
knows better than the teacher? hm. perhaps you are right master.
>
> Anyways, I'll probably have a springier sense of humor later in the day.
> I feel I should at least organize the links and citations from the
> original thread and maybe dig up a copy of *Voice of the Valley* for the
> quotations I alluded to.
A beautiful voice she sings.
>
> I seem to have been drawn into a reflective phase about my experiences
> in Buddhism, which is probably good.
reflective stillness
rain blossums
bootglass
Black Silver meditation:
William Tucker
"HAIR" <a...@a.oot> wrote in message news:3E2037B4...@a.oot...
oftentimes that is what is needed
facilitation is an art
it is difficult to seperate the person from the title
it would be better if the people did if for themselves
that is the ideal situation
any uncomfortableness, is an opportunity for growth when addressed
people must clearly understand this to use the opportunity for that rather
than personalgain
although that too is an opportunity for growth when addressed up-front as a
seperate thing
support must exist within the community for facilitation as a way of doing
business
every leader who gets training in leadership is just as important as each
member
growth/learning should be supported at all levels
difficult opportunities must be used
integrity is the foundation of truth
you can not make a soup without water
Wm
William Tucker
communication
Wm
Ch'an Fu
William Tucker wrote:
with a urinal?
Ned Ludd
news:5unU9.7206$Qr4.6...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> water is the flow...
> communication
>
----------------------------------------------------------------
Communication is the root of all evil.
Jeanne Vondrak, 4-27-92
----------------------------------------------------------------
Note: I am re-issuing Affirmachinaction #46, as it was incorrectly
(very) attributed to Dar. The words were in fact posted by someone
who is one hundred percent NOT Dar. Not even close. So the above,
from a co-worker of mine 11 years ago, will replace the obliterated
prior Affirmachination-46. - Ned
William Tucker
<bow>
"Ned Ludd" <ned...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:avt25c$394$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
William Tucker
"Ch'an Fu" <Cha...@removeyoursandals.metta.lk> wrote in message
news:3E220CA6...@removeyoursandals.metta.lk...
sometimes the most honest, certainly direct...do not stand in the way
Wm
Ned Ludd
William T:
>> water is the flow...
>> communication
Ned:
>----------------------------------------------------------------
> Communication is the root of all evil.
> Jeanne Vondrak, 4-27-92
>----------------------------------------------------------------
> Note: I am re-issuing Affirmachinaction #46, as it was incorrectly
> (very) attributed to Dar. The words were in fact posted by someone
> who is one hundred percent NOT Dar. Not even close. So the above,
> from a co-worker of mine 11 years ago, will replace the obliterated
> prior Affirmachination-46. - Ned
William T:
> is this the world famous "now" Ned who has come, but not to be quoted?
>
----------------------------------------------------------------
who cares who you were but who you are now, ya know, its like
caring about reincarnation, you may have been cleopatra but ure
sure no babe today - Dar
----------------------------------------------------------------