Idam Gura Ratna ....

[yi...@my-deja.com]

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Source ]

From: <CHEONG_Mei_Yee@U...>
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 1:55am
Subject: question

Hello my friends!
Could anyone please tell me the meaning of IDAM GURU RATNA
MANDALAKAM NIRYATAYAMI ?
thank you,

Mei Yi
~:^)

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

[David Yeung]

Re: Idam Gura Ratna ....

yi...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Hello my friends!
> Could anyone please tell me the meaning of IDAM GURU RATNA
> MANDALAKAM NIRYATAYAMI ?
> thank you,
>
> Mei Yi
> ~:^)

Since no one else has answered this, I'll venture a guess. It
looks like Sanskrit, of which I only know a few words. But I do
know a bit more of Pali, and Sanskrit's close enough to Pali that
I can guess at it.

"ida.m guru" would mean "the teacher" or "the guru" (well everyone
knows what a guru is right?) "ida.m" is nominative and accusitive
singular in Pali (IIRC)... I don't know about Sanskrit though.
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here, but this would be
"(to? for?) the teacher".

"ratna"... jewel or gem.

"mandalakam"... Well we have "ma.n.dala" (I don't remember which
vowels are long) literally "circle", but the word is used with
myriad meanings in Buddhism. In Tibetan Buddhism (I am guessing
since it refers to "guru"), "mandala" refers to a, well, mandala.
(If you don't know what this is, it's another thread. =) )

So "ratna mandalakam" would be "(of?) this jewel-mandala".

I don't recognize the verb "niryata..." though. Presumably
in Pali it's "nibba...something", but I don't know enough about
the relationship between Sanskrit and Pali to venture a guess.

The verb ending "-ami" is the first person, i.e. "I" conjugation.
(Well at least it is in Pali.) So it's "I [verb] this
jewel-mandala to the guru (teacher)".

In context, my guess would be "I give/offer/dedicate this
jewel-mandala to the guru". Sounds like part of a Tibetan prayer.

Now, I know there are some Sanskrit experts out there, so tell
me how close I am (or if I'm not very close at all). =)

--
David Yeung

[Sri]

I think it is in Sanskrit and is :

"Idam guru ratna mandalakam niryatyami."

I am sure Dayamati can help you best with the exact translation and the
context of this phrase , but my take of it is as follows :

idam -> this
guru -> teacher (not to be confused with the word "pandit" or a learned
man like Dayamati, though he is both a guru and a pandit to some if not
many)/ heavy or weighty (as opposed to "laghu" or small, again, not to
be confused with... )
ratna -> jewel/bejewelled
mandala-kam-> round/circular, but I think this referes to the "mandala"
of Tantric Buddhism with the "kam" being there for emphasis.
niryatyami -> I give/ I send forth/ I issue forth (niryat-> to give/to
present)

Putting it all together, it would seem to me to be a mantra or
invocation which says :

"I present this jeweled (jewel of a) mandala, O guru."

Another version (to which many Gurus will strongly object since the
presentation seems to omit them) is :

"I present this heavy-jeweled-mandala"

But then, one should never be too concerned about what the "pundits"
think. As Kabir says :

"Pothi pothi padh muaa pandit bhayaa na koi
Dhai aakhar prem ka pada so pandit hoi." [Kabir]

'He is not a Pandit, though to the knowledge in every book he may lay
claim.
Yet a Pandit he is who merely studies the two-and-half consonant word
called "prem"*.'

*The word "prem" (a cognate of the word the Buddhist term
"priti"/"piti") is made up of two full consonants (pa and ma) and
another half (ra).

Cheers.
Sri.
---------------------------------------------------------------
"May all sentient, able-bodied, beautiful, young, and rich females have
"prem" for me. [Stefan G.]

yi...@my-deja.com wrote:

> Message 1592 of 1593 [ Reply ] [ Forward ] [ View
> Source ]
>
> From: <CHEONG_Mei_Yee@U...>
> Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 1:55am
> Subject: question
>

> Hello my friends!
> Could anyone please tell me the meaning of IDAM GURU RATNA
> MANDALAKAM NIRYATAYAMI ?
> thank you,
>
> Mei Yi
> ~:^)
>

[Sri]

David Yeung wrote:

This analysis proves the point that if, in a Sanskrit sentence, you see
the word "guru" and another word which denotes anything precious and
valuable, then you can safely conclude that the sentence means : "give
the goddamn precious thing to the guru".

Cheers.
Sri.
---------------------------------------
May I be the guru of all sentient beings [who have precious things in
their possesion].

[yi...@my-deja.com]

Thanks David and Sri for the superb translation.

Palms together,
Mei Yi
~:^)

In article <39EE5768...@earthlink.net>,

[Gileht]

In article <8sjt7l$fgq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

yi...@my-deja.com wrote:
> From: <CHEONG_Mei_Yee@U...>
> Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 1:55am
> Subject: question
>
> Hello my friends!
> Could anyone please tell me the meaning of IDAM GURU RATNA
> MANDALAKAM NIRYATAYAMI ?
> thank you,
>
> Mei Yi
> ~:^)

From:
http://amdo.homepage.com/prayers.html

sashi pukyi jukshing metok tram ,
rirab lingshi niynde gyenpa di ,
sangye shingdu mikte ulvar gyi ,
drokun namdak shingla chupar shok .
Idam guru ratna mandalakam niryatayami

Here is the great Earth ,
Filled with smell of incense covered with flowers,
The Great Mountain the Four Continents ,
Wearing a jewel of the Sun , and a Moon
In my mind I make them the Paradise of a Buddha ,
And offer it all to You .
By this deed
May every living being experience the Pure World

+++++++++++++++++++

It is the offering mantra.

+++++++++++++++++++

From:
THE HUNDREDS OF DEITIES OF THE LAND OF JOY
("DGA'-LDAN LHA-BRGYA-MA")
BY DÜL-NAG-PA PÄL-DÄN

Translated by alexander Berzin
In accordance with an oral teaching by Geshe Rabten as translated by
Gonsar Tulku
Library of Tibetan Works and Archives - 1979

(i.e. a short guru puja in the Kadampa/Gelug tradition of Tsong Khapa)

1. REFUGE & BODHICHITTA:
I go for refuge to the Triple Gem:
I shall liberate all sentient beings,
To lead them to an Enlightened State,
I generate purely an Enlightened Motive. (3x)

2. PURIFICATION OF THE ENVIRONMENT:
May the surface of the Earth in every direction
Be pure, without even a pebble,
As smooth as the palm of a child's hand,
Naturally polished as is lapis lazuli.

3.
And may all space be completely filled
With the material offerings of gods and men,
Both these set before me and those mentally created
As a peerless cloud of Samantabhadra offerings.

4. INVOKING:
From the heart of the Protector of the hundreds of deities of the Land
of Joy
Comes a cloud that resembles a mass of fresh, white curd,
Omniscient Lo-zang Drag-pa, King of the Dharma, together with your
sons.
I request you to come here now.

SEVEN LIMB PRAYER

5. BESEECHING
O venerable Gurus with white smiles of delight
Seated on lion-thrones, lotus and moon in the space before me,
I request you to remain for hundreds of aeons in order to spread the
teachings
And be the supreme Field of Merit for my mind of faith.

6. PROSTRATING
Your minds have the intellect that comprehends the full extent of what
can be known,
Your speech, with its excellent explanations, becomes the ear ornament
for those of good fortune,
Your bodies are radiantly handsome with glory renowned,
I prostrate to you whom to behold, hear or recall is worthwhile.

7. OFFERING
Pleasing water offerings, various flowers,
Fragrant incense, light and scented water -
An ocean of actual and visualized cloud-like offerings,
I present to you, O supreme Field of Merit,

8. CONFESSING - PURIFICATION
Whatever non-virtues of body, speech and mind
I have accumulated from beginningless time,
And especially any transgressions of my three vows
I confess over and again with fervent regard from my heart.

9. REJOICING
From the depths of our hearts we rejoice, O Protectors
In the great waves of your deeds, you who
Strove to learn and practice in this degenerate age
And made life meaningful by abandoning the eight worldly feelings.

10. REQUESTING TEACHINGS
O holy and venerable Lama, from the clouds of compassion
That form in the skies of your Dharmakaya wisdom,
Please release a rain of vast and profound Dharma
Precisely in accordance with the needs of those to be trained.

11. DEDICATING
I dedicate whatever virtues I have ever collected
For the benefit of the teachings and of all sentient beings,
And in particular for the essential teachings
Of Venerable Lo-zang Drag-pa to shine forever.

12. MANDALA:
By directing to the Fields of Buddhas this mandala
On a Base resplendent with flowers, saffron water and incense,
Adorned with Mount Meru, the four Continents and Sun and Moon
May all sentient beings be led to these Fields.

OM IDAM GURU RATNA MANDALA-KAM NIR-YATA-YAMI,
I send forth this jewelled mandala to you precious Gurus.

13. PURIFICATION:
By the force of having fervently requested in this way
Hollow rays of white light are emitted from the hearts
Of the Venerable Father and his two sons, the ends of which combine
into one and enter the crown of my head.

14.
By the white nectar, the colour of milk,
That comes through the pathway of the tube of white light,
I am cleansed of all sickness, disturbance, non-virtues, obstacles and
their instincts without exception,
And my body becomes as pure and clear as crystal.

15. MIGTSÉMA:
You are Avalokitesvara, great treasure of compassion not aimed at true
existence,
And Manjusri, master of flawless wisdom,
As well as Vajrapani, destroyer of hords of demons without exception,
O' Tzong-kha-pa, crown jewel of the sages of the Land of Snows,
Lozang Drag-pa, I make requests at your feet.

mig-me tze-wä ter-chen chän-rä-zig
dr'i-me ky'en-päi wang-po-jam-päl yang
dü-pung ma-lü jom-dzä sang-waï dag
g'ang-chän k'ä-päi tzug-gyän tzong-k'a-pa
lo-zang dr'ag-päi zhab-la söl-wa deb (3x)

16. REQUESTS TO THE GURU:
O glorious and precious root Guru, come take your
Lotus and moon seat placed here upon my head
And keep me safe in your great kindness,
Bestow on me, please, the powerful attainments of your body, speech and
mind.

17.
O glorious and precious root Guru, come take your
Lotus and moon seat at my heart
And keep me safe in your great kindness;
Remain steadfast until I achieve Buddhahood.

18. DEDICATION:
By this merit may I quickly
Attain the state of a Guru-Buddha
And may I lead unto that state
Every being without exception.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Gileht
http://www.geocities.com/gileht/index.html

[Dayamati Dhammachari]

yi...@my-deja.com wrote:

> Could anyone please tell me the meaning of IDAM GURU RATNA
> MANDALAKAM NIRYATAYAMI ?

IDAM is a neuter demonstrative adjective modifying the compound
GURU-RATNA-MANDALAKAM. The compound means a collection (mandalaka) or
teachers (guru) who are like jewels (ratna). The verb NIRYAATAYAAMI is a
10th class verb that means to give give as a present. So the translation
is: I PRESENT THIS COLLECTION OF JEWEL-LIKE TEACHERS.

--
Dayamati

[Mike Austin]

In article <39EF52FC...@hotmail.com>, Dayamati Dhammachari
<daya...@hotmail.com> writes

Hi Dayamati,

The translation I have from our pujas is, "This jewelled mandala I send
forth to you Gurus." I don't know Sanskrit, but this translation is more
in line with the meaning and purpose from what I have been taught. Could
it be translated both ways?

--
Mike Austin

[Gileht]

In article <CPvs6IAE...@clara.net>,

Mike Austin <mi...@lamrim.org.uk> wrote:
> In article <39EF52FC...@hotmail.com>, Dayamati Dhammachari
> <daya...@hotmail.com> writes
> >yi...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> >> Could anyone please tell me the meaning of IDAM GURU RATNA
> >> MANDALAKAM NIRYATAYAMI ?
> >
> >IDAM is a neuter demonstrative adjective modifying the compound
> >GURU-RATNA-MANDALAKAM. The compound means a collection (mandalaka) or
> >teachers (guru) who are like jewels (ratna). The verb NIRYAATAYAAMI
is a
> >10th class verb that means to give give as a present. So the
translation
> >is: I PRESENT THIS COLLECTION OF JEWEL-LIKE TEACHERS.

Hum ..... nobody who does Mandala Offering would buy that.

This is not good a good day.

>
> Hi Dayamati,
>
> The translation I have from our pujas is, "This jewelled mandala I
send
> forth to you Gurus." I don't know Sanskrit, but this translation is
more
> in line with the meaning and purpose from what I have been taught.
Could
> it be translated both ways?
>

I repeat :

OM IDAM GURU RATNA MANDALA-KAM NIR-YATA-YAMI,
I send forth this jewelled mandala to you precious Gurus.

Translated by Alexander Berzin

In accordance with an oral teaching by Geshe Rabten as translated by
Gonsar Tulku
Library of Tibetan Works and Archives - 1979

> --
> Mike Austin
>

Gileht

[Dayamati Dharmachari]

Mike Austin <mi...@lamrim.org.uk> writes:

> The translation I have from our pujas is, "This jewelled mandala I send
> forth to you Gurus." I don't know Sanskrit, but this translation is more
> in line with the meaning and purpose from what I have been taught. Could
> it be translated both ways?

From the way it was written, it was not clear whether GURU was part of
the compound or not. I assume it is in the compound, because otherwise
it would have a case-ending instead of being a bare stem. Even if it
were vocative singular masculine, the form would have to be GURO, not
GURU. If the mantra read IDAM GURO RATNA-MANDALAKAM NIRYAATAYAAMI, it
could be translated as "I present this collection of jewels, Oh
teacher." But as written, this interpretation is impossible, and the
one I offered would be more faithful to the grammar.

Note that MANDALAKA is not the same as MANDALA. Both words means a
collection or mass. MANDALA means other things as well, but MANDALAKAM
is best understood as a collection or mass.

All this is rather, well, academic, because Buddhist mantras often
ignore Sanskrit grammatical rules anyway. Some of them make no sense
whatsoever in themselves, but they acquire a conventional meaning.

--
May all beings have Sanskritic hearts,
Dayamati

[Mike Austin]

In article <m3k8b49...@mubul.mcgill.ca>, Dayamati Dharmachari
<daya...@hotmail.com> writes

>All this is rather, well, academic, because Buddhist mantras often
>ignore Sanskrit grammatical rules anyway. Some of them make no sense
>whatsoever in themselves, but they acquire a conventional meaning.

Hi Dayamati,

This reminds me of the fellow who travelled a great distance to get some
instruction from a guru whose language he didn't speak. When he arrived,
the guru told him "Go away". Of course, he didn't understand and thought
he had given him a mantra. He recited it and achieved realisations.

Then there was the dull-witted monk Chudapanthaka (Tib. Lamchungpa) who
recited text that he himself could not understand, but those who passed
by achieved realisations just by hearing it.

"Horses for courses," as they say.

--
Mike Austin

[Dayamati Dhammachari]

Mike Austin wrote:

> This reminds me of the fellow who travelled a great distance to get some
> instruction from a guru whose language he didn't speak. When he arrived,
> the guru told him "Go away". Of course, he didn't understand and thought
> he had given him a mantra. He recited it and achieved realisations.

My favourite real-life mantra story is of a woman who asked me once if I
could give her a mantra to curb her anger. I told her I don't believe in
mantras, so I'm the wrong one to ask, but I told her she might go see a
Korean Zen master. She did. The next time I saw her, she was beaming
with smiles. She said the Zen master had given her a wonderfully
effective mantra. She said it every time she felt angry, and the anger
disappeared immediately. I asked her what the mantra was. She repeated
it me. I managed not to laugh or even crack a smile when she solemnly
recited the Korean words for "One, Two, Three, Four, Five."

--
Dayamati
"They're all deluded. Whatever I say, nobody gets it. It's too simple."
(Kabir)

[Dayamati Dhammachari]

> I repeat :

> OM IDAM GURU RATNA MANDALA-KAM NIR-YATA-YAMI,
> I send forth this jewelled mandala to you precious Gurus.
>
> Translated by Alexander Berzin

Grammatically impossible, I'm afraid, but if it works for you, go for
it. It's good to see that once again good mumbo jumbo trumps good
Sanskrit grammar.

[Nevermind]

On Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:00:59 GMT, Dayamati Dhammachari
<daya...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>yi...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>> Could anyone please tell me the meaning of IDAM GURU RATNA
>> MANDALAKAM NIRYATAYAMI ?
>
>IDAM is a neuter demonstrative adjective modifying the compound
>GURU-RATNA-MANDALAKAM. The compound means a collection (mandalaka) or
>teachers (guru) who are like jewels (ratna). The verb NIRYAATAYAAMI is a
>10th class verb that means to give give as a present. So the translation
>is: I PRESENT THIS COLLECTION OF JEWEL-LIKE TEACHERS.

Hmmm... given this always follows as the last line in the Tibetan
mandala offering to the guru, it would seem to me to mean "I present
this collection TO jewel-like teachers." Wouldn't it?

[Mike Austin]

In article <39F03755...@hotmail.com>, Dayamati Dhammachari
<daya...@hotmail.com> writes

>My favourite real-life mantra story is of a woman who asked me once if I

>could give her a mantra to curb her anger. I told her I don't believe in
>mantras, so I'm the wrong one to ask, but I told her she might go see a
>Korean Zen master. She did. The next time I saw her, she was beaming
>with smiles. She said the Zen master had given her a wonderfully
>effective mantra. She said it every time she felt angry, and the anger
>disappeared immediately. I asked her what the mantra was. She repeated
>it me. I managed not to laugh or even crack a smile when she solemnly
>recited the Korean words for "One, Two, Three, Four, Five."

Hi Dayamati,

I guess it's the intention that really counts.

--
Mike Austin

[David Yeung]

Re: Idam Gura Ratna ....

David Yeung:

> > In context, my guess would be "I give/offer/dedicate this
> > jewel-mandala to the guru". Sounds like part of a Tibetan prayer.

Sri wrote:
> This analysis proves the point that if, in a Sanskrit sentence, you see
> the word "guru" and another word which denotes anything precious and
> valuable, then you can safely conclude that the sentence means : "give
> the goddamn precious thing to the guru".

Bingo.

[David Yeung]

Re: Idam Gura Ratna ....

Dayamati Dharmachari wrote:
> From the way it was written, it was not clear whether GURU was part of
> the compound or not. I assume it is in the compound, because otherwise
> it would have a case-ending instead of being a bare stem. Even if it
> were vocative singular masculine, the form would have to be GURO, not
> GURU. If the mantra read IDAM GURO RATNA-MANDALAKAM NIRYAATAYAAMI, it
> could be translated as "I present this collection of jewels, Oh
> teacher." But as written, this interpretation is impossible, and the
> one I offered would be more faithful to the grammar.

Well, if you look in the subject rather than the message, it says
"gura" instead of "guru". Does "gura" have a valid Sanskrit noun
ending, or is it just a typo? Would it make a difference if the
message had been "idam gura..."?

> All this is rather, well, academic, because Buddhist mantras often
> ignore Sanskrit grammatical rules anyway. Some of them make no sense
> whatsoever in themselves, but they acquire a conventional meaning.

We Chinese are just about the worst offenders when it comes to
garbling up Sanskrit. In translating Buddhist dharanis and mantras
from Sanskrit into Chinese, we sometimes work by the sound, and
sometimes the meaning, and often we break apart a word and partly
transliterate it and partly translate it. Of course the words
used for the sounds are fossilized pronunciations from ancient
Chinese, and don't sound at all like modern Mandarin. I'm even
worse because I speak Cantonese, so when I read one of these things
out loud it sounds even more far off from the original.

The only people who are comparable in messing up Sanskrit are
perhaps the Koreans and the Japanese, who take the Sinocized
Sanskrit and then transliterate it into their own scripts.
The thing is so garbled by that point that it hardly even
matters. For example, "Amitabha Buddha" ends up as "Ah mei t'o
Fo" in Mandarin, which is pronounced in Cantonese as "All lei
tohl Fut" -- the "m" sound is transformed into an "l". And
of course the word "Fo" or "Fut" sounds nothing like "Buddha".
(The more educated Cantonese speaking Buddhists pronounce the
"lei" like a "mei", even though the character used to write
it sounds like "lei".) In Vietnamese they say "Adida".
Interestingly, in Korean it's "Amitul Bul", and in Japanese
it's "Amida Butsu". Somehow these languages managed to
preserve the "B" sound in "Buddha". (You as Mubul would of
course already know this.)

Nevertheless, Sinicized garbled Sanskrit sounds very impressive
when chanted. I once heard a group of Mahayana - Chinese,
Vietnamese, Korean and Japanese - monks chant the Heart Sutra
together. Of course it sounds nothing like Chinese, Sanskrit,
Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese, or for that matter any other
language, but it was still very impressive. It was obvious
that they were all chanting the same text, since they were all
using the same metre, but each pronounced it differently. But
the difference was always close enough that you could tell it
was just different versions of the same thing.

[Sri]

In article <m3k8b49...@mubul.mcgill.ca>,

That is interesting. I am curious if it would be grammatically correct
to think of the usage of "guru" here as "laghu" is used (though in the
opposite sense) in : "Laghu Siddhanta Kaumudi". If Varadaraj wrote of
weighty treatise on the subject, could he have titled it : "Guru
Siddhanta Kaumudi" ?

Cheers.
Sri.

>
> --
> May all beings have Sanskritic hearts,
> Dayamati
>
>

[Dayamati Dharmachari]

Nevermind <nvmd_R...@hotmail.com> writes:

> Hmmm... given this always follows as the last line in the Tibetan
> mandala offering to the guru, it would seem to me to mean "I present
> this collection TO jewel-like teachers." Wouldn't it?

The syntactic relation among words in a compound is always ambiguous.
Some of the possible meanings of the compound would be "collection of
jewels for the teacher(s)", "collection of teachers who are like
jewels", "collection of jewels that are like teachers", "collection of
teachers who are jewels", "collection of jewels who are teachers" and
so forth. Without some context, it is impossible to know what the
intended meaning is. If this is a mantra presented at the end of an
offering to teachers, as you say, then it is most likely that the
first of the interpretations above is correct: "collection of jewels
for the teacher(s)".

I know nothing about mantras, except that the Buddha told his
disciples never to utter them. I know more than I care to have to admit
about Sanskrit grammar.

--
May all beings have grammatically trained hearts,
Dayamati

[Dayamati Dharmachari]

David Yeung <trip...@my-deja.com> writes:

> Well, if you look in the subject rather than the message, it says
> "gura" instead of "guru". Does "gura" have a valid Sanskrit noun
> ending, or is it just a typo? Would it make a difference if the
> message had been "idam gura..."?

It has to be a typo. There is no form GURA. It could be a typo for
GURAVO, which could be a vocative plural. "O teachers, I offer this
collection of gems."

> We Chinese are just about the worst offenders when it comes to
> garbling up Sanskrit.

The Tibetans and Mongolians come in a close second. And, as you say,
the Koreans and Japanese garble dharanis beyond all recognition.

> (You as Mubul would of course already know this.)

No bull.

> Nevertheless, Sinicized garbled Sanskrit sounds very impressive
> when chanted.

I agree. I find it very beautiful (once the inner Sanskrit grammarian
stops cringing).

--
May all beings have polyglot hearts,
Dayamati

[Klaus Schmetterling]

"Dayamati Dharmachari" <daya...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message news:
m3zojzj...@mubul.mcgill.ca...

> I know nothing about mantras, except that the Buddha told his
> disciples never to utter them.

Do you remember in what sutta he said so?

[Dayamati Dharmachari]

"Klaus Schmetterling" <klaus.sch...@wanadoo.fr> writes:

> > I know nothing about mantras, except that the Buddha told his
> > disciples never to utter them.

Most of the suttas in the first division of the Diigha-nikaaya. Also
in the vinaya there is a rule against chanting, which is usually
understood as a prohibition against intoning mantras. Mantras, of
course, were the heart of the Vedic sacrifice. Those who rejected the
sacrificial religion also rejected the intoning of mantras and other
such rituals. But habits die hard. Within a few centuries Buddhists
were as hopelessly addicted to mantras as everyone else in India. The
Vedic mentality eventually conquered the Buddhists.

--
May all beings avoid mantras,
Dayamati

[Mike Austin]

In article <m34s26n...@mubul.mcgill.ca>, Dayamati Dharmachari

>> > I know nothing about mantras, except that the Buddha told his
>> > disciples never to utter them.
>
>Most of the suttas in the first division of the Diigha-nikaaya. Also
>in the vinaya there is a rule against chanting, which is usually
>understood as a prohibition against intoning mantras. Mantras, of
>course, were the heart of the Vedic sacrifice. Those who rejected the
>sacrificial religion also rejected the intoning of mantras and other
>such rituals. But habits die hard. Within a few centuries Buddhists
>were as hopelessly addicted to mantras as everyone else in India. The
>Vedic mentality eventually conquered the Buddhists.

Hi Dayamati,

I seem to remember, when I first came to usenet a few years ago, that
you started a thread in which you claimed that the Buddha proscribed
the chanting of mantras. After some lively exchanges, you admitted to
your mischievousness. Does my memory serve me correctly? Is this the
same prank again?

--
Mike Austin

[Martin Ellison]

As far as I can see (by looking up Macdonell and Coulson), the
dative singular of GURU is GURAVE, which presumably is then the
form for "to the guru". You would need to explain how GURAVE had
become GURU in the received text.

Nevermind <nvmd_R...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:q5f0vssvjdv96g3ku...@4ax.com...

> On Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:00:59 GMT, Dayamati Dhammachari
> <daya...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >yi...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> >> Could anyone please tell me the meaning of IDAM GURU
RATNA
> >> MANDALAKAM NIRYATAYAMI ?
> >
> >IDAM is a neuter demonstrative adjective modifying the
compound
> >GURU-RATNA-MANDALAKAM. The compound means a collection
(mandalaka) or
> >teachers (guru) who are like jewels (ratna). The verb
NIRYAATAYAAMI is a
> >10th class verb that means to give give as a present. So the
translation
> >is: I PRESENT THIS COLLECTION OF JEWEL-LIKE TEACHERS.
>

[yi...@my-deja.com]

In article <WYjZ$XAoPh...@clara.net>,

---

--- In Dharma...@egroups.com, "Crystal " <crystalyick@t...> wrote:
>
> > Dayamati Dharmachari" <dayamati@h...> a écrit dans le
> > message
> > news:
> >

> > > I know nothing about mantras, except that the Buddha told his
> > > disciples never to utter them.
> >

> > Do you remember in what sutta he said so?
> >

> > Klaus
> > ~:^)
> --

>
>
> Most of the suttas in the first division of the Diigha-nikaaya. Also
> in the vinaya there is a rule against chanting, which is usually
> understood as a prohibition against intoning mantras. Mantras, of
> course, were the heart of the Vedic sacrifice. Those who rejected the
> sacrificial religion also rejected the intoning of mantras and other
> such rituals. But habits die hard. Within a few centuries Buddhists
> were as hopelessly addicted to mantras as everyone else in India. The
> Vedic mentality eventually conquered the Buddhists.
>

> --
> May all beings avoid mantras,
> Dayamati

---

Joon Chua asked:

Did the Buddha actually teach the mantras and tantras to his advance
followers as claimed by some modern day authors? Are these mantras and
tantras part of Theravada Buddhism?

Answered by:

Venerable Dr. Rewata Dhamma, Birmingham Buddhist Vihara, UK

According to ancient literary sources there is no evidence of
Mantrayana ever having existed in early Buddhist teaching. Mantras,
however, are found in the Vedas. the oldest of the Hindu Scriptures
which pre-date the Buddha's teachings by some two thousand years.
Evidence of the use of Mantras by the people of ancient Egypt also
exists, and is found in their early religious texts. People used
mantras in order to acquire magical powers. The Buddha only did not
teach mantras, but he also strongly condemned the use of mantras for
mundane gain, and emphatically stated that to do so constituted wrong-
livelihood.

The Vetulyavada sect existed during the reign of the Emperor Asoka.
Its adherents professed the following beliefs:

1. No Sangha could accept gifts (dana) and could not purify any
gift.

2. There is no merit in making offerings to the Buddha, because the
Buddha never existed, and never taught.

3. Sexual intercourse was allowed.

These doctrines caused great controversy, and became the subject
of much debate. Although the adherents of this sect rejected the
existence of an historical Buddha, they did accept the doctrine of
Sunyavada (Emptiness). These beliefs and doctrines became the
fundamental doctrines of both Vajrayana, and Tantrayana Buddhism. These
teachings were introduced to people of Sri Lanka in the first century
A.D. during the reign of King Balagamabahu I.

Mantrayana sprang from the Mahayana Buddhist Tradition,
specifically from the Mahayana sect known as the, Vetulyavada. The
centre of this sect was situated at Sri Dhanyakata in South India,
after 2nd century AD, not far from Sri Parbat, the place where
Nagarjuna (1st century BC), the great Mahayana scholar and expounder of
the Mahayana Doctrine was born and lived.

The Mantrayana came into existence as: Suttas- B.C. 400-100.

Dharani - A.D. 100-400.

Tantra- A.D. 100-700.

Historically speaking, Mantrayana Buddhism was practised from 4OO-
7OO A.D.. and Vajrayana Buddhism from 800-1200A.D. Tilopa and Naropa
were the Great teachers of the Vajrayana lived during l0th and 11th
century AD. Nonetheless, substantial historical and linguistic evidence
exists which supports the existence of Mantrayana Buddhism before the
year 400 A.D.

[Dayamati Dharmachari]

Mike Austin <mi...@lamrim.org.uk> writes:

> I seem to remember, when I first came to usenet a few years ago,
> that you started a thread in which you claimed that the Buddha
> proscribed the chanting of mantras. After some lively exchanges, you
> admitted to your mischievousness. Does my memory serve me correctly?
> Is this the same prank again?

This is no prank. The Buddha really did say that neither he nor his
disciples chant mantras. But when I see that I am about to be beaten
up by a bunch of thugs who are attached to mantras, I tell them I was
only joking, just to save them form the bad karma they would
accumulate by harming a gentle soul such as I.

--
May all beings have mouths pure of mantra recitation,
Dayamati

[Mike Austin]

In article <m38zrhe...@mubul.mcgill.ca>, Dayamati Dharmachari
<daya...@hotmail.com> writes

Hi Dayamati,

I wonder if the mantras prohibited were only those for worldly gain - as
'yick2' has just described. Could you please give, or quote, the precise
reference? Mantras come into many of the practices that I've been taught
and are usually associated with visualisations. I'm not attached to them
myself, but you can understand me being just a little curious when that
is what happens around me.

What my teacher has sometimes recommended to people who are depressed or
upset is to chant a mantra - or even sing a song! This temporarily lifts
them out of depression, helping them get back into the swing of things.
If nothing more, mantras could be used in this way. The advantage (above
ordinary song) is that the content is not rooted in worldly pursuits.

--
Mike Austin

[Mike Austin]

In article <8stnub$8ca$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, yi...@my-deja.com writes

>Venerable Dr. Rewata Dhamma, Birmingham Buddhist Vihara, UK
>
> According to ancient literary sources there is no evidence of
>Mantrayana ever having existed in early Buddhist teaching. Mantras,
>however, are found in the Vedas. the oldest of the Hindu Scriptures
>which pre-date the Buddha's teachings by some two thousand years.
>Evidence of the use of Mantras by the people of ancient Egypt also
>exists, and is found in their early religious texts. People used
>mantras in order to acquire magical powers. The Buddha only did not
>teach mantras, but he also strongly condemned the use of mantras for
>mundane gain, and emphatically stated that to do so constituted wrong-
>livelihood.

Hi 'yick2',

Thanks for your contribution here. I would expect the Buddha to condemn
anything practised for mundane gain - not just mantras. I can imagine a
wrong use of mantras would be as spells for lay people for which payment
would be due, thus becoming wrong livelihood. What you have quoted does
not say that the Buddha condemned mantras outright.

> The Vetulyavada sect existed during the reign of the Emperor Asoka.
>Its adherents professed the following beliefs:
>
> 1. No Sangha could accept gifts (dana) and could not purify any
>gift.
>
> 2. There is no merit in making offerings to the Buddha, because the
>Buddha never existed, and never taught.
>
> 3. Sexual intercourse was allowed.
>
> These doctrines caused great controversy, and became the subject
>of much debate. Although the adherents of this sect rejected the
>existence of an historical Buddha, they did accept the doctrine of
>Sunyavada (Emptiness). These beliefs and doctrines became the
>fundamental doctrines of both Vajrayana, and Tantrayana Buddhism.

I have to dispute this. The Vajrayana that I see practised involves both
the acceptance of gifts and making many offerings to the Buddha(s). The
sexual side of it, I don't see practised anyway (not being a voyeur!)

--
Mike Austin

[Klaus Schmetterling]

"Mike Austin" <mi...@lamrim.org.uk> a écrit dans le message news:
Dl2MgWA$as85Ew$l...@clara.net...

Hi Mike,

> Thanks for your contribution here. I would expect the Buddha to condemn
> anything practised for mundane gain - not just mantras. I can imagine a
> wrong use of mantras would be as spells for lay people for which payment
> would be due, thus becoming wrong livelihood. What you have quoted does
> not say that the Buddha condemned mantras outright.

There are different sorts of mantras in TB. Mantras for mundane gain are in
particular frequently used in Protector Practises (which have been discussed
very recently on ARTB). Obviously, the mundane gain will have to be used in
order to create favorable conditions for Dharma practice.

But there are other mantras as well. The Budda didn't condemn chanting and a
lot of mantras/dharanis are simply bits of sanskrit chanting of sutras.
Only, this approach becomes more tricky when one wonders why this chanting
isn't done in the language of those who chant (another recommendation of the
Buddha)? Perhaps, because it is thought that the "original" language, the
language in which the Buddha was believed to have uttered these sutras, is
more powerful. It is when the power of the words is thought to be in their
form rather then in their meaning, that the power of ordinary words is
reified and that they become mantras.

[Dayamati Dharmachari]

Mike Austin <mi...@lamrim.org.uk> writes:

> I would expect the Buddha to condemn anything practised for mundane
> gain - not just mantras.

Yes, that is exactly his stance. There is nothing wrong with saying
mantras as such, just as there is nothing wrong with healing people.
But when one exchanges the service of saying mantras or healing for
livelihood, then one is misusing them. Mantras are quite dangerous, I
think, because it is very easy to slip into the mentality that sees
them as a commodity that can be bought and sold and become part of
one's livelihood.

Of course, if one thinks about mantras as Asanga did, then there is
not much of a problem. He saw them as a device for maintaining
concentration and mindfulness. He saw them as empty phrases having no
inherent meaning or efficacy; reciting them is doing a completely
meaningless act, and it thereby helps one be mindful of the inherent
meaninglessness of all activities. If you see mantras in that light,
then there is no problem in reciting them.

> I can imagine a wrong use of mantras would be as spells for lay
> people for which payment would be due, thus becoming wrong
> livelihood.

I can also imagine that convincing people that they need to be
empowered by an initiation before the mantras become truly efficacious
would be seen as a form of wrong livelihood, for it is a way of
inviting the practitioner to support the giver of the initiation. This
is remarkably close to the kind of brahmanism that the Buddha
unambiguously criticized. But I don't mean to single out mantras and
initiations. An awful lot, perhaps most, of what Buddhist monks and
priests do to earn their daana falls squarely in the category of
things that the Buddha said that he and his disciples never do. Wrong
livelihood is alive and well in the bhikkhu-sangha and has been for
very long time.

--
May all beings have right livelihood,
Dayamati

[Dayamati Dharmachari]

Mike Austin <mi...@lamrim.org.uk> writes:

> I wonder if the mantras prohibited were only those for worldly gain - as
> 'yick2' has just described. Could you please give, or quote, the precise
> reference?

Look in the siila section of the Brahmajaala sutta and any of the
suttas in the first section of the Diigha-nikaaya.

> Mantras come into many of the practices that I've been taught and
> are usually associated with visualisations.

Yes, I am quite familiar with those practises. I do them myself. I am
just saying that the Buddha did not teach such things and that in fact
he condemned the reciting of mantras. But so what? Most of us who call
ourselves Buddhists do many things that the Buddha recommended against
doing. That is, perhaps, why some of us still experience a bit of
dukkha from time to time.

> What my teacher has sometimes recommended to people who are
> depressed or upset is to chant a mantra - or even sing a song! This
> temporarily lifts them out of depression, helping them get back into
> the swing of things.

I would strongly prefer singing a song or listening to a bit of music.
Then one has less delusion about the nature of what one is doing. If
one recites a mantra to get out of an unpleasant mental state, then
one may get the false impression that there is something spiritual
about getting over feeling a bit down.

The technique for getting over an unpleasant mental state that I find
most useful is just to study that mental state very thoroughly. If it
is unpleasant, study its unpleasantness with the greatest of care.
Then the mental state will go away, and you will not be tempted to
invite it back into your mentality. By really studying a bad mood, I
find I can banish it for a very long time. Getting out of it by some
other method (songs or mantras), I find, is a bit like putting
wallpaper over a crack in the wall. It hides the damage but does
nothing at all to repair it. But that's just my personal experience.
Others may have other experiences, and if so, then they should honour
their experience.

> If nothing more, mantras could be used in this way. The advantage (above
> ordinary song) is that the content is not rooted in worldly pursuits.

Any time one does anything for the sake of gaining comfort, then it is
worldly. There is nothing less worldly about getting our of a blue
funk by performing a puja or reciting a mantra than there is by
singing a song or taking Prozac or getting laid. When the goal is
simply to gain temporary relief from an unpleasant state, then it is a
worldly goal.

--
May all beings have contented hearts,
Dayamati

[Evelyn Ruut]

"Dayamati Dharmachari" <daya...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:m3g0lpx...@mubul.mcgill.ca...

> --
> May all beings have right livelihood,
> Dayamati

[Evelyn Ruut]

Dear Dayamati,

In support of mantras, I might add that when life situations bring a great
deal of suffering, so much that ones thoughts become scattered, mantra
practice can bring focus back and have a calming effect, as you stated it
above "a device for maintaining concentration and mindfulness".

Also if one is chanting a mantra during which one is generating a mental
view of bodhicitta for all beings, envisioning peace and loving kindness,
mantra practice can bring a great deal of peace and focus. After that
peace and focus returns, careful analysis of the situation that gave rise to
it, as you stated in another post, is best.

As to saying that it is "meaningless" - from that standpoint, so is
everything including meditation. But if it helps the mind to generate a
certain focus or direction, towards a greater purpose and awareness, that is
the name of the game isn't it?

Best Regards,
Evelyn

[Nevermind]

On Fri, 20 Oct 2000 23:08:06 GMT, Dayamati Dharmachari
<daya...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Nevermind <nvmd_R...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> Hmmm... given this always follows as the last line in the Tibetan
>> mandala offering to the guru, it would seem to me to mean "I present
>> this collection TO jewel-like teachers." Wouldn't it?
>

>The syntactic relation among words in a compound is always ambiguous.
>Some of the possible meanings of the compound would be "collection of

>jewels for the teacher(s)", ...

This statement alone casts great suspicion then on Donald Lopez's
recasting of the mantra "OM MANE PEME HUNG," (in Prisoners of
Shangri-la) the traditional interpretation meaning "OM Jewel in the
Lotus HUM" as "OM Mr. Jewel-Lotus HUM."

Other than that, EXCELLENT exchange between Wicked Jimmy and yourself
on the distinction of samskrta/asamskrta dharmas. This is the first
set of posts I actually reformatted and printed out for reference.

[Dayamati Dharmachari]

"Evelyn Ruut" <pud...@frontiernet.net> writes:

> In support of mantras, I might add that when life situations bring a
> great deal of suffering, so much that ones thoughts become
> scattered, mantra practice can bring focus back and have a calming
> effect, as you stated it above "a device for maintaining
> concentration and mindfulness".

Fortunately, I have always been able to regain my focus by taking one
or two deep breaths. Sometimes, if a situation is grim and I need a
stronger focus, I go for refuge. This has always worked much better
for me than mantras, perhaps because I have an emotional connection
with going for refuge and have never been able to connect with
mantras. As the old adage goes, "One man's mantra is another man's
poison." (This adage was written before the discovery of women in 1967.)

> Also if one is chanting a mantra during which one is generating a
> mental view of bodhicitta for all beings, envisioning peace and
> loving kindness, mantra practice can bring a great deal of peace and
> focus.

I don't dispute that. I have always been able to get the same effect
just by thinking "May all beings be contented". I don't know what
bodhicitta looks like, so I can't visualise it.

> As to saying that it is "meaningless" - from that standpoint, so is
> everything including meditation.

Yes, that is exactly Asanga's point.

> But if it helps the mind to generate a certain focus or direction,
> towards a greater purpose and awareness, that is the name of the
> game isn't it?

The goal is liberation. The means does not matter much. And it's not a
game.

--
May all beings have contented hearts,
Dayamati

[Dayamati Dharmachari]

Nevermind <nvmd_R...@hotmail.com> writes:

> >The syntactic relation among words in a compound is always ambiguous.
> >Some of the possible meanings of the compound would be "collection of
> >jewels for the teacher(s)", ...
>
> This statement alone casts great suspicion then on Donald Lopez's
> recasting of the mantra "OM MANE PEME HUNG," (in Prisoners of
> Shangri-la) the traditional interpretation meaning "OM Jewel in the
> Lotus HUM" as "OM Mr. Jewel-Lotus HUM."

Actually, my statement does not cast any doubt at all on what Lopez
says. The problem in the mantra OM MANIPADME HUM is that MANI can only
be construed as the first member of a compound. It cannot possibly be
the agent of the main verb. So while the mantra could be construed to
mean many things, as Lopez reports, there are constraints. It cannot
mean just anything. And one of the things it cannot possibly mean is
"The jewel is in the lotus." That is absolutely ruled out, and no
Indian or Tibetan ever construed it to mean that until some Western
scholar mistranlsated it. What is interesting is that this Western
mistranslation has worked its way back into Tibetan oral tradition, so
now can find even respected lamas giving this impossible interpretation.

[Evelyn Ruut]

"Dayamati Dharmachari" <daya...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:m3puksx...@mubul.mcgill.ca...

It might be easier to achieve if it were regarded more playfully......

And Dayamati my dear, please be careful about mentioning 'means' around
here.... Some folks are VERRRY sensitive about means they don't personally
endorse, like visualizations, etc. :-)

Regards,
Evelyn

[yi...@my-deja.com]

In article <m38zrhe...@mubul.mcgill.ca>,

There are also some who say that the Buddha had specifically forbidden
the use of mantras. However, other sources also claim that some mantras
were used during the Buddha's time to heal illnesses, ward off spirits,
snakes/creatures when the monks were in the forests.

How do we reconcile them?

Thank you very much. Really grateful for ur help. =)

Metta,
Jing Rui

[Mike Austin]

In article <m3em19x...@mubul.mcgill.ca>, Dayamati Dharmachari
<daya...@hotmail.com> writes

>> If nothing more, mantras could be used in this way. The advantage (above

>> ordinary song) is that the content is not rooted in worldly pursuits.
>
>Any time one does anything for the sake of gaining comfort, then it is
>worldly. There is nothing less worldly about getting our of a blue
>funk by performing a puja or reciting a mantra than there is by
>singing a song or taking Prozac or getting laid. When the goal is
>simply to gain temporary relief from an unpleasant state, then it is a
>worldly goal.

Hi Dayamati,

Maybe it is a case of defining our terms here, for even the path to the
cessation of suffering may appear to be worldly depending on one's depth
of understanding of suffering. Knowing that a practice is for temporary
relief but seeing it within the wider context of the path - i.e. that it
is a condition conducive to the achievement of dukha-nirodha - would add
a perspective that is not confined to seeking worldly comforts.

Another example would be Shantideva's advice to act as a piece of wood:

When, just as I am about (to act).
I see that my mind is tainted (with defilement),
At such a time I should remain
Unmovable, like a piece of wood.

This doesn't do anything directly for the achievement of dukha-nirodha,
because it doesn't address one's fundamental ignorance. However, there's
a recognition of one's own difficulties in applying this method, Having
an intention to counter adverse mental behaviour is indication that it's
not founded entirely in worldly benefits.

I could imagine that the Buddha may have said, "Don't to be like a piece
of wood." And, indeed, one should not remain so. However, maybe this is
referring more to goal than path.

--
Mike Austin

[Klaus Schmetterling]

"Mike Austin" <mi...@lamrim.org.uk> a écrit dans le message news:

Sy$UpJA61...@clara.net...

> Another example would be Shantideva's advice to act as a piece of wood:

> When, just as I am about (to act).
> I see that my mind is tainted (with defilement),
> At such a time I should remain
> Unmovable, like a piece of wood.

> This doesn't do anything directly for the achievement of dukha-nirodha,
> because it doesn't address one's fundamental ignorance. However, there's
> a recognition of one's own difficulties in applying this method, Having
> an intention to counter adverse mental behaviour is indication that it's
> not founded entirely in worldly benefits.

I myself would interpret this sloka slightly differently. Firstly, I
wouldn't put the accent on acting "like a piece of wood", but on remaining
unmovable -like a piece of wood. I don't think the "unmovable" applies to
the mental activity, since the mind is always active, but rather on our not
*acting* upon our mental states. The decision not to act upon our mental
states is IMO a first step (which has to be made over and over again) and a
very important one towards the reduction of our fundamental (?) ignorance.
If one doesn't act upon but watches one's mental state, one is well on one's
way.

[Evelyn Ruut]

"dar" <rokt...@my-deja.com> wrote in message

> Did you ever get that song down?
> I';ll mail it to ya, it's so sexy and funny.

Every time I tried it started a download that it was estimated to take an
hour and some odd minutes. I waited one time for a half an hour and then
for some reason it quit getting any more, so I just shut it down.

I would like to hear it dar....

Ev

[Mike Austin]

In article <8t17oi$j16$1...@wanadoo.fr>, Klaus Schmetterling <klaus.schmett
erl...@wanadoo.fr> writes

Hi Joy,

Yes, I understand what you mean. It depends whether one considers taking
no *net* action when there is a possibility to act, is an action itself.
If one averts a wrong action that one would normally be disposed to, the
net result is no action. That 'no action' only comes about through equal
and opposite actions, simply speaking. In engineering terms, it would be
held as internal stress. This has analogies in the way we deal with (and
overcome) suffering.

--
Mike Austin

[Henry]

Om Ye Dharma Hetu Prabhava Hetum Tesham Tathagato Hyavadat Tesham Cha Yo
Nirodha Evam Vadi Mahashramanah Svaha!

Om of things that proceed from a cause, their cause the Tathagata has
told. Thus teaches the Great Monk Svaha!

--
With compliments:
Fly high "Vincent De Moor Remix Radio Edit" by Hamasaki Ayumi
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/geleg/flyhigh4.ram

SURREAL by Hamasaki Ayumi
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/geleg/surreal.ram

YOU by Hamasaki Ayumi
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/geleg/you1.ram

--
Yours in Dharma,
Henry Chia
(Ngawang Geleg)

email: ge...@pacific.net.sg
URL: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/4886/index.htm
<-: Ngawang Geleg's Buddhist Home Page :->
(A Buddhist resource guide)
URL: http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/geleg/cults.htm
<-: Buddhist Cults A - Z :->
(Another Buddhist page for all)
URL: http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/geleg/index1.htm
<-: ayu-mi-x for XX :->
(A webpage for Hamasaki Ayumi)

[tang_...@my-deja.com]

In article <39F03755...@hotmail.com>,
Dayamati Dhammachari <daya...@hotmail.com> wrote:

<<My favourite real-life mantra story is of a woman who asked me once if
I could give her a mantra to curb her anger. I told her I don't believe
in mantras, so I'm the wrong one to ask, but I told her she might go see
a Korean Zen master. She did. The next time I saw her, she was beaming
with smiles. She said the Zen master had given her a wonderfully
effective mantra. She said it every time she felt angry, and the anger
disappeared immediately. I asked her what the mantra was. She repeated
it me. I managed not to laugh or even crack a smile when she solemnly
recited the Korean words for "One, Two, Three, Four, Five.">>

Given that many people who follow the Tibetan religion actually practice
religions of the Book surreptitiously while seeming to practice Buddhism
on the surface, the best mantra to help them control their anger -- and
heaven knows how many of them need it! -- would be:

"Abraham, Isaac, Jacob".

It has lineage too, which really counts, to them.

Tang Huyen

[Wicked Jimmy]

Back, briefly, flushed by this (and the realization that I'm going to do
just fine on my acupuncture board exam):

Dayamati Dharmachari wrote:

> > I would expect the Buddha to condemn anything practised for mundane
> > gain - not just mantras.
>
> Yes, that is exactly his stance. There is nothing wrong with saying
> mantras as such, just as there is nothing wrong with healing people.
> But when one exchanges the service of saying mantras or healing for
> livelihood, then one is misusing them.

The Buddha may have felt this way about healing, but I disagree -- at
least as far as modern American culture is concerned. If a person is to
eschew livelihoods that reduce the suffering of others, then one is left
to choose between livelihoods that are neutral to the suffering of others
(but are there any, really?), or livelihoods that increase others'
suffering. That's pretty absurd. (Of course, as with entropy, there's
probably always some met gain of dukkha just by being around.)

IMV, it depends on one's motivations. One can be hot to profit from the
sufferings of others, or one can say, this is what I'm going to do, and
I'm not realistically going to get my begging bowl filled any other way if
I do this full time, so I'd better charge for my services.

If I start drooling with avarice every time someone comes into my office
with a sore back, then my heart is clearly in the wrong place. If I do my
best to help people feel better and charge them a fair price, then I am
not engaged in wrong livelihood. IMV, of course.

There's nothing wrong with mantras or soothsaying, either, if one's
motivations are proper.

WJ

**********
remove the doers of highly karmic livelihood from my email

> --
> May all beings have right livelihood,
> Dayamati

[Wicked Jimmy]

Wicked Jimmy wrote:

> (Of course, as with entropy, there's
> probably always some met gain of dukkha just by being around.)

should be "net gain of dukkha"

[Wicked Jimmy]

Just one more thought on the healing livelihood thing: one fairly well-known
American practitioner of Chinese medicine wrote in a recent book that in his
religious tradition (I believe it was Tibetan Buddhism), practitioners are
enjoined from being healing professionals, presumably because it's wrong to
profit from others' suffering. For this reason, he was cutting back on his
practice, and spending more and more time writing books. All his books are
about Chinese medicine, of course, and therefore are dedicated to instructing
healing professionals in the art of profiting by others' suffering. Gotta
love this kind of logic.

[Dayamati Dharmachari]

Wicked Jimmy <wickedCLI...@hotTRUMANmail.com> writes:

> > But when one exchanges the service of saying mantras or healing for
> > livelihood, then one is misusing them.
>
> The Buddha may have felt this way about healing, but I disagree -- at
> least as far as modern American culture is concerned.

The Buddha did not feel this way in general. He felt that way only
about monks. A monk may heal, but he may not charge money for it. The
Buddha had nothing at all against lay people making a livelihood by
healing. Some of his staunchest lay supporters were physicians. (For
that matter, the Buddha had nothing against a lay person earning a
livelihood by selling sex. Some of his staunchest supporters were
prostitutes.)

> There's nothing wrong with mantras or soothsaying, either, if one's
> motivations are proper.

Exactly. The issue is whether a person who is begging for a livelihood
can also earn money on the side by any means. Being a bhikkhu (which
literally means beggar) and earning money or favours on the side was
in Indian society like accepting welfare monies but cheating the
system by earning unreported money on the side.

--
Dayamati

[Angelo]

In article <R1aIkNAO...@clara.net>,
Mike Austin <mi...@lamrim.org.uk> wrote:
> In article <m38zrhe...@mubul.mcgill.ca>, Dayamati Dharmachari
> <daya...@hotmail.com> writes
> >Mike Austin <mi...@lamrim.org.uk> writes:

> What my teacher has sometimes recommended to people who are depressed
> or upset is to chant a mantra - or even sing a song! This temporarily
> lifts them out of depression, helping them get back into the swing

> of things. If nothing more, mantras could be used in this way. The

> advantage (above ordinary song) is that the content is not rooted in
> worldly pursuits.
>

> --
> Mike Austin

I read somewhere recently (can't remember where unfortunately) that
singing and dancing to rhythmic music releases endorphins, the
brains 'happy' chemicals. I would think that chanting mantras would be
perfect for generating this effect.

Angelo

[Angelo]

In article <m3u2a05...@mubul.mcgill.ca>,
Dayamati Dharmachari <daya...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>(For
> that matter, the Buddha had nothing against a lay person earning a
> livelihood by selling sex. Some of his staunchest supporters were
> prostitutes.)

Say more on this please. Did he specifically say it was OK, or did he
just fail to condemn it? Sorry to be a pedant, but do you have ref's
for this? - I'd like to read up on this (and probably start an
arguement about it in a study group sometime :-) heh heh...)

The only thing I could find on Access to Insight was this...

Sutta Nipata I.6 Parabhava Sutta
Not to be contented with one's own wife, and to be seen with harlots
and the wives of others -- this is a cause of one's downfall.

But this is not specifically saying harlots are bad - just that one
should be content if married.

Thanks
Angelo

[Evelyn Ruut]

"Angelo" <angelo...@my-deja.com> wrote in message

> I read somewhere recently (can't remember where unfortunately) that
> singing and dancing to rhythmic music releases endorphins, the
> brains 'happy' chemicals. I would think that chanting mantras would be
> perfect for generating this effect.
>
> Angelo

I think that chanting sadhanas or mantras can have this effect.

Regards,
Evelyn

[Dayamati Dharmachari]

Angelo <angelo...@my-deja.com> writes:

> >(For
> > that matter, the Buddha had nothing against a lay person earning a
> > livelihood by selling sex. Some of his staunchest supporters were
> > prostitutes.)
>
> Say more on this please. Did he specifically say it was OK, or did he
> just fail to condemn it?

In ancient and classical India, woman were always considered to be
under the protection of a man. An unmarried woman was under the
protection of her father or an older brother. A married woman was
under the protection of her husband. A betrothed woman was under the
joint protection of her father and fiance. A mistress or concubine was
regarded as equivalent to a second-class spouse. A widow was under the
protection of her sons or brothers. This matter of protection resulted
in all kinds of sexual taboos. A man could not have sexual relations
with a woman under his protection (except, of course, when the woman
was his wife). Moreover, a man could not have sexual relations with a
woman who was under another man's protection. This was not for her
sake, but for the sake of the honour of the protecting male. To fail
to protect a woman properly was a matter of great shame to a man. What
this meant in theory (practice, as in all human conduct, did not
always match the lofty ideals) was than a man could not have sex with
any woman other than his own wives, mistresses and concubines. Now
once class of woman who was not under protection was a woman of
pleasure, such as a courtesan or a prostitute. Therefore, there was no
shame or dishonour in paying a a woman for sex, provided that was her
business. And there was no shame in being a prostitute. These rules
were general for Indian society at the time of the Buddha. His
guidelines for sexual propriety were in no way innovative or
revolutionary.

> Sorry to be a pedant, but do you have ref's for this? - I'd like to
> read up on this (and probably start an arguement about it in a study
> group sometime :-) heh heh...)

There's an excellent PhD thesis by a McGill student named Arti Dhand
on sexuality in classical India. It is very well documented, drawing
mostly on the epics. As for stories of courtesans in Buddhism, read up
on Ambapali (also called Ambapallika) in Malalasekera's Dictionary of
Pali Proper Names. She was a famous courtesan who made generous
donations to the Bhikkhu-sangha. (Her donations were financial, but
the gossipy towns-people also thought she might be giving monks sexual
favours as well.) Nowhere is she condemned for her way of making a
livelihood. She is praised for her generosity, not condemned for her
way of making the money with which she was generous. That would
probably have been the norm in Indian society during the time of the
Buddha.

As you have pointed out, one can find passages in which lay men are
discouraged from spending money unwisely, especially money they do not
have to spare. So a man who spent money on gambling, lavish
entertainments, drink and harlots was considered a foolish man.
Married men should spend their money on their wives and concubines,
and their children, not on women for hire. But a single man, or a very
wealthy man, could spend money on courtesans if doing so would not
result in the financial difficulty of the people he was duty-bound to
support.

Because the status of women was (arguably) very different in the
Buddha's time than it is now, there is not much point in trying to
apply the Buddha's views on sexuality to modern situations. Women are
(in theory at least) free agents rather than under the protection of
men. They are not the property of men or under male dominion. So a
woman who was forbidden for sexual relations in the Buddha's time
(such as an unmarried woman, a widow, a divorced woman, or even a
married woman) is eligible for a sexual relationship in our society
if she freely wills to be in one. So in applying the general dictum
that one should not do what is harmful in pursuing pleasure, a modern
Buddhist would be much less constrained than a Buddhist in ancient
India (or in many relatively traditional cultures).

--
May all beings have contented hearts,
Dayamati

[Sri]

That is really a fine summary on the issue. I would like to add two points
:

- in many instances - like in the case of Amrapali (Ambapali/Ambapallika) ,
or even the lady Kannagi's husband used to spend his time - the status of
such ladies in the society was rather high (if one is to infer not just
from the absence of reproach for their profession but also from the open
manner in which the well-to-do and the famous used to associate themselves
with such ladies). If my memory serves me right, Hajime Nakamua also
alludes to this issue when dealing with the problems of Buddhist texts
translated into Chinese in ancient times (apparently, Buddhist stories
describing how a prince fell in love with a prostitute was a "no no" for
the Chinese of those times, given their Confucian leaning regarding the
class composition of the society - please don't make me dig up the refs.
for I'd hate to go through that thick survey of Indian Buddhism mostly
written in small print !) .

- while one has to be normally careful about making remarks that might
cover large areas of the Indian sub-continent, in this particular case the
remarks of Dayaamati seem to be valid not only for the northern parts of
India (where the Buddha lived and taught) but also for the southern part of
India (one excellent source of material in this regard is the Tamil story
of "Kannagi")

Cheers.
Sri.

[GeoWCherry]

Your view (expressed below) makes sound moral sense to me. I wish you and your
clients good effects. I wonder, though, why you chose acupuncture over, say,
Trager therapy, Rolfing, or becoming a registered nurse or physician's
assistant. Don't answer. I just wonder.

George W. Cherry

<Wicked Jimmy>

Back, briefly, flushed by this (and the realization that I'm going to do
just fine on my acupuncture board exam):

Dayamati Dharmachari wrote:

> > I would expect the Buddha to condemn anything practised for mundane
> > gain - not just mantras.
>
> Yes, that is exactly his stance. There is nothing wrong with saying
> mantras as such, just as there is nothing wrong with healing people.

> But when one exchanges the service of saying mantras or healing for
> livelihood, then one is misusing them.

The Buddha may have felt this way about healing, but I disagree -- at

least as far as modern American culture is concerned. If a person is to
eschew livelihoods that reduce the suffering of others, then one is left
to choose between livelihoods that are neutral to the suffering of others
(but are there any, really?), or livelihoods that increase others'

suffering. That's pretty absurd. (Of course, as with entropy, there's

probably always some met gain of dukkha just by being around.)

IMV, it depends on one's motivations. One can be hot to profit from the

sufferings of others, or one can say, this is what I'm going to do, and
I'm not realistically going to get my begging bowl filled any other way if
I do this full time, so I'd better charge for my services.

If I start drooling with avarice every time someone comes into my office
with a sore back, then my heart is clearly in the wrong place. If I do my
best to help people feel better and charge them a fair price, then I am
not engaged in wrong livelihood. IMV, of course.

There's nothing wrong with mantras or soothsaying, either, if one's
motivations are proper.

WJ

> --
> May all beings have right livelihood,
> Dayamati
</Wicked Jimmy>

[GeoWCherry]

<Angelo>

Mike Austin <mi...@lamrim.org.uk> wrote:
> In article <m38zrhe...@mubul.mcgill.ca>, Dayamati Dharmachari
> <daya...@hotmail.com> writes
> >Mike Austin <mi...@lamrim.org.uk> writes:

> What my teacher has sometimes recommended to people who are depressed
> or upset is to chant a mantra - or even sing a song! This temporarily
> lifts them out of depression, helping them get back into the swing
> of things. If nothing more, mantras could be used in this way. The
> advantage (above ordinary song) is that the content is not rooted in
> worldly pursuits.
>
> --
> Mike Austin

I read somewhere recently (can't remember where unfortunately) that
singing and dancing to rhythmic music releases endorphins, the
brains 'happy' chemicals. I would think that chanting mantras would be
perfect for generating this effect.

</Angelo>

This is physiologically silly. Even if chanting released endorphins (and it
doesn't nearly so well as very brisk jogging), the depressed person won't
benefit very much because what the depressed person doesn't have enough of is
serotonin. If you have clinical depression (endogenous not situational
depression), you need more serotonin. What I like to see is the combining of
the insights of Buddha with the knowledge of science. Many "spiritual" people
are anti-science and many scientists dismiss what can't be reduced to their
special science. These sectarian squabbles don't benefit us very much. Take up
what works. I think that's Buddhism.

George W. Cherry

[Angelo]

In article <m38zrbm...@mubul.mcgill.ca>,
Dayamati Dharmachari <daya...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Angelo <angelo...@my-deja.com> writes:

> There's an excellent PhD thesis by a McGill student named Arti Dhand
> on sexuality in classical India. It is very well documented, drawing
> mostly on the epics. As for stories of courtesans in Buddhism, read up
> on Ambapali (also called Ambapallika) in Malalasekera's Dictionary of
> Pali Proper Names. She was a famous courtesan who made generous
> donations to the Bhikkhu-sangha.

I don't think I'm keen enough to read a PhD thesis on it - drinking
from a firehose. Doing my masters at the mo on a completely different
subject.

For those in search of lighter reading (such as myself) the following
might be interesting

Access to Insight (bless them) has two entries for Ambapali. She makes
an appearance in the Maha-Parinibbana Sutta, Digha Nikaya 16; and in
the Therigatha XIII.1 - she became a bikkhuni.

"Like a sheet of gold, well-burnished,
my body was splendid.
Now it's covered with very fine wrinkles.
The truth of the Truth-speaker's words
doesn't change."

Buddhanet has an article entitled "AMBAPALI : The Immoral Woman Who
Later Became an Arahant", based on the Maha-Parinibbana Sutta.
http://www.buddhanet.net/2_18lbud.htm

'The following day, Ambapali set sweet milk rice and cake before the
Buddha and His followers, and she herself attended upon them in great
humility. After the Buddha had eaten Ambapali sat on one side, with
folded palms and said, "Holy one, I present this garden to the Order.
Accept it, if it be your will."

The Buddha accepted the gift, seeing the purity of heart that made it.'

This was just before the Buddha became fatally ill. Having read these
stories about Ambapali, it's not obvious how the Buddhist world saw
prostitution. But the Buddha doesn't seem to make any distinction based
on her profession - or gender for that matter.

[Wicked Jimmy]

GeoWCherry wrote:

> I wonder, though, why you chose acupuncture over, say,
> Trager therapy, Rolfing, or becoming a registered nurse or physician's
> assistant. Don't answer. I just wonder.

Ah heck, I'll answer anyway, since I like talking about myself. Basically, (a)
because I find it more enjoyable than any of the above -- I dig the Taoist-derived
Chinese medical theory that underlies acupuncture; it seems to fit my brain well,
just as organic chemistry (onetime profession) and Vedic astrology (sometime
hobby) have. (b) I have a big ego, and like to be a big fish in the ponds I swim
in. I can do this in acupuncture -- be a smart guy in the profession, hang out my
own shingle and so on. (c) I had to do something that was both elegant and
prosocial. Just one or the other wouldn't cut it. (d) I was too old, and too
encumbered with familial joys and obligations, to go to osteopathic med school,
which was the other tempting alternative.

My best,
WJ

[gary....@gmail.com]

Hi,

I'm way late to this thread, but I thought I'd offer this link to a PDF with a very detailed explanation of not only the line of translation you were looking for, but of its context as well in terms of ritual and practice.

http://tibetan.bitecs.ru/files/mandala_offering.pdf

Cheers,
Gary

On Wednesday, October 18, 2000 3:00:00 AM UTC-4, yi...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Message 1592 of 1593 [ Reply ] [ Forward ] [ View
> Source ]
>
>
>
> From: <CHEONG_Mei_Yee@U...>
> Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 1:55am
> Subject: question
>
>
> Hello my friends!
> Could anyone please tell me the meaning of IDAM GURU RATNA
> MANDALAKAM NIRYATAYAMI ?
> thank you,
>
> Mei Yi
> ~:^)

[lmacc...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, October 18, 2000 at 2:00:00 AM UTC-5, yi...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Message 1592 of 1593 [ Reply ] [ Forward ] [ View
> Source ]
>
>
>
> From: <CHEONG_Mei_Yee@U...>
> Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 1:55am
> Subject: question
>
>
> Hello my friends!
> Could anyone please tell me the meaning of IDAM GURU RATNA
> MANDALAKAM NIRYATAYAMI ?
> thank you,
>
> Mei Yi
> ~:^)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.

I offer this jewelled mandala to the guru

[vvas...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, October 18, 2000 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-4, yi...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Message 1592 of 1593 [ Reply ] [ Forward ] [ View
> Source ]
>
>
>
> From: <CHEONG_Mei_Yee@U...>
> Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 1:55am
> Subject: question
>
>
> Hello my friends!
> Could anyone please tell me the meaning of IDAM GURU RATNA
> MANDALAKAM NIRYATAYAMI ?
> thank you,
>
> Mei Yi
> ~:^)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.

i use this in my practice. i think the idea for me is, you are giving all of your attachments to the idea of enlightenment. instead of a literal translation, you use the words poetically to reveal deeper meaning. what you are trying to inspire are actions and thoughts in the context of living as a bodhisattva, the way you move and speak and live and the effect on your environment. to eliminate suffering, even in a small way. so, nothing about giving money to some asshole pretending to be a guru. what you are doings is presenting all of your attachments (and aversions) to the aspiration of absolute enlightenment, and your ridiculously beautiful commitment to obtaining it as a state for all sentient beings.
also, for me as an introvert and householder, the buddha, dharma, and sangha are not literal objects in the meditation. the buddha is not the dude who invented the system, but the concept or aspiration of what he wanted to achieve imagined as already obtained or existing, even if outside of time. the dharma is whatever tool you use to get there. sangha is all the peeps who have ever lived who dedicated their lives to eliminate human suffering.
hope that helps.

[kevinweb...@gmail.com]

I hereby give unto you this jeweled cosmos oh enlightened teachers.

[Julian]

On 30/05/2019 17:57, kevinweb...@gmail.com wrote:
> I hereby give unto you this jeweled cosmos oh enlightened teachers.

Thanks, but I have one already so I'll put the spare on Ebay.